Unearthed Emotions: Examining Vulnerability in Faith with Rick Meyer

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The rain of the Holy Spirit is about to descend upon us today as I get to talk with , get to know more deeply , rick Meyer . Rick has an amazing story of pastoring as well as caring for leaders and just loving those that are walking through the ups and downs of life , which are inevitable . Today , the topic is soul care , which , rick ?

I don't think we can talk about this topic too much . I guess I would have delved into this , and so this is going to be fun today . But opening question how are you praying for Reformation in the American Christian Church , rick ? Rick Meyer . Thanks for hanging out , rick .

Rick Meyer , the American Reformation Well , the word that comes to my mind and I've been actually thinking about this quite a bit lately , because my latest book that I'm in the middle of writing really tries to pay attention to this subject , and the word is discipleship . And so you know this , I know you've thought a lot about it , written about it .

Whenever I talk with a young person , say 18 to 25 , and they're in the church and they're just really solidly there , you know , and they're growing in their faith , they're walk with the Lord , I like to ask the question why did you stay ? Why are you still in the church ?

And invariably the answer comes back something like this Someone outside of that young person's family invested in them in the church . They just poured into them .

They were the person who that young kid knew whenever they went to church , that this man , this woman , they were going to ask about me , they were going to do a serious check in and really love on them . That was sort of like number one is the thing I hear . Second thing is they felt needed . They were involved at a young age and to ministry .

And then the third thing good foundational teaching . You know they can look back and say you know , I really got the basics . You know those three . If I mean , I just am getting so used to hearing those three that where I my conclusion is that's what all of us need at every age . If that was right .

I think a lot of times you think hospitality at a church , oh , that's like make sure we give a handshake and people need to be seen and cared for . But are we setting up environments in the local church where people can be , and especially starting with our younger folks ?

I got a shout out to my friend , doug , who's pouring into my son Malachi right now , and Doug came to my son's football game , drove out 45 minutes to come to his football game on Friday night and just his presence there , that means the world . And he's kind of like he's not married right now .

He's had a couple kids and just wants to pour and they're grown , you know , and he just wants to pour into my son and that means so so much and we need more dugs , right , rick ?

I mean , their own kids , their own children and grandchildren might be struggling and may not be connected to faith and church life , you know , but they're finding a way to pour into somebody who's right there and that's just like you said . I love the hospitality imagery there . Yeah , that's awesome , yeah .

So in our context , small groups have been a big deal for us and a lot of life on life , you know , down through the generations . Having moms and dads pouring to other kids , you know that's really had a profound impact . What we've been wrestling with recently is service .

So what happens if an older adult went and hung out with my son around we'll say Doug and Malachi , they're going to serve together at La Mesa and which is a meal and worship inclusive of the working , poor and homeless , like doing that together and then going out and grabbing , you know , a cup of coffee or something like that after serving .

I mean the bonds that form through service and deepening relationships are so , so huge . So I tend to lean a little bit more toward organic . But there has to be some sort of intentionality about leadership to say these are the environments where relationships take place , especially cross generationally . Anything more to add there , rick ?

There's a lot that I can do , but I'm , you know , I'm not , I'm part of that system and they need someone from outside of that family system to recognize and say you know , you're a value , like you were saying you're , you're a value , enough value that I care about you and I want to , I want to hang with you , I want to , you know , be one of those

people in your life that you can kind of count on . And I'm going to look , and you know the crush , Mentoring , reverse mentoring , that mutual mentoring , whatever language you want to use there . You know it has to go the other way .

You know it's not just I'm going to teach you a few things , but , man , I am interested in your perspective and what you're learning , because I'm going to learn from you , I'm going to grow from that .

And it's really easy for me as a late baby boomer , because I desperately need help in so many areas , that it's easy for me to say , man , I just let's spend a little time together because you're going to need your insight here , you know , especially when it comes to technology , but relationally too . You know , these are different generations .

They're growing up seeing and hearing things we didn't .

Rick , I don't , I don't know , I'm 42 right now and the kids are coming out of the locker room and say , hey coach , hey coach , what , what you think about my drip ? I'm like , come again Now , what do you think ? What do you think about my drip ?

And in it , like how good they looked with their extra accessories on their arms and their that's , that's drip , rick . I probably just taught you something there .

He whispers to us in our pleasures , but he shouts to us in our struggles , right , and so what has God taught you through pain and struggle with really a chronic what it sounds like more of a chronic battle with shingles and I know that's , I've known brothers and sisters . It's so , so painful . Tell us about that story , what the Lord has revealed to you .

And on some level that was there , but it was almost more like you know I was , I was flying by instruments on that one I knew that was the right thing , the right posture , right , but I didn't start there . I mean this , this hit in January of 17 . And it and Tim , it took me two to three years to really start moving in that direction .

For the first couple of years , you know , I didn't care if I continued living or not . I mean , thankfully we have Job and and Elijah and Jonah and you know , and a number of the Psalms to draw upon to see that there's an invitation for us to give expression to the hardest , most vulnerable emotions .

But I , you know , I , I , I , I , I , I really felt as though God had . I thought God was there , but I felt as though he had turned his face of blessing away from me and it's just genuinely the way it feels .

I've talked with other people going through this now and they gone through times too where they just at night , pray God , please take me home to be with you . I just want to be with you . And God says learn to pray your own Psalm of lament . I'm sorry , learn to pray your own Psalm of lament . So so I mean it's . You know , my God , where are you ?

Have you ? Have you abandoned me forever ?

I mean this . This is kind of stuff we find in those individual Psalms of lament , and these are people of faith crying out . I can't tell you how many times I've tried to encourage people going through hardship and painful situations that you know you might not feel it on an emotional level , but God wants you to say this .

Now he's turned into me and saying Rick , I want this full on , and I had hard , hard conversations with God . I I told God some things that you know looking around and I'm really not wanting anyone else to hear what I'm saying , but one of the things that got became reinforced for me was what did Jesus choose to spare To speak from the cross ?

I gotta , I gotta get to the cross right , and you know , psalm 23 is probably the best known Psalm of any right . The Lord is my shepherd . I shall not , I shall not be in want . It's just sings of comfort and the joy of the Lord . But our Lord didn't choose Psalm 23 . Yes , sir , psalm 22 . My God , my God , why have you forsaken me ?

And in that moment I know I have a God who understands me better than I know myself , because he understands the question why I'm starting to get preachy . I love it , rick .

And Romans five is so seared into my memory because I walk alongside secondhand trauma and and then I've experienced my own struggles and my family and things , and we all , we all do . It's inevitable , but Paul's , paul's journey of faith to rejoice and suffering , knowing that here's the trajectory of life . It's perseverance , scott , I'm going to trust in you .

I'm going to develop . There's a lot that's being written right now about grit . I'm not going to give up .

But even though I feel like it and I may even tell you that I feel like it , perseverance and that character , that radical dependence upon you , through everything you must be my rock and my shield , that very present help and trouble , even though it feels like you've forsaken me , turned your back on me .

I know you in essence turned your back on the sun and the sun will never turn his back on me . He loves me more and he sits with me . He knows what it is to suffer and even cry and weep over my suffering , and then that moves us to the hope of the resurrection on the last day when suffering , trial , lost tears , death itself will forever be vanquished .

So you got me preaching to here . That's the ultimate goal is the way of . You've gotten to walk the way of the cross , right , rick ? Well , a lot of times , especially in our American comfort . This is an American Reformation podcast .

In our American comfort , we've had so many creaturely comforts that then , when something within us or around us gets discombobulated , we say where are you got ? And we ask the why ? Question , which are very natural questions . So as you journeyed through that , what new questions did you start to ask out of the you know where are you ?

It feels like you've turned your back . I mean , it's the stages of grief in many respects , right to maybe even different questions . Yeah , talk about that .

You know he talked about that suffering and identifying with Christ through his suffering , and I think that's what I'm thankful for . I used to get to the cross pretty quickly , but I move there really , really fast now and I know that's really what we all need is to get there fast . That's got to be our beginning and end point .

I mean , there are so many different variations on certain themes , that belief and practices from one church expression of the body of Christ to another , and I like to say listen , you have to start with the cross , you have to start with Christ and his suffering .

If you don't start there together and instead you talk about these differences and variations and I'm not saying those things aren't important to really pay attention to , right , but if you start there , you may never , ever get to Christ .

You know just , you know , think about Christmas meals with those extended family around the table and you know you have enough father right there , probably the job , I think .

Sorry , I start to move into soul care very quickly in this conversation and I think about what I've learned and what I like to talk with others about because , as you know , tim , we teach what we need .

So , definition and basic tenets of soul care , because in the Lutheran tradition it's probably any of our listeners are Lutheran it's not something I think it's becoming more popular to talk about in this day and age .

Soul care I'm hearing some Lutheran theologians delving into it more , but maybe you know it's come out of a lot of the contemplative , maybe Catholic strands

. Soul care we're talking , the rhythms of Sabbath and silence and solitude and those types of things . Caring for those are some of the rhythms that can help us tend for , you know , daily and then on a weekly or quarterly type of basis , our soul and then the father , the spiritual father and mothers .

You can come alongside us to help help peel the layers of the onion so that we can get to the deepest parts of us . It's not something that happens very naturally for many folks here , so this is going to be awesome . Definition basic tenets of soul care .

But I must attend to and I know , you know , when I think about my training as a pastor and moving into my first call and what that felt like I , you know , I thought I was focusing on God pretty well and I had a heart for others . I do a really good job with myself . It's kind of like the curse of the plumber's home .

You know that's the last place to get any plumbing done . You know you're plumbing for everybody else's house , but you're on . And it's kind of like that for pastors too , I'm afraid . Right , I mean , if we're going to be in the Word , it's going to be to prepare a message or some teaching or whatever , but to actually sit alone with God .

I mean soul care has to , has to start there , and so God , self , others . I need to be paying attention to word and prayer in my own life just for me as it were , and my family .

And then I need , I need some good brothers in the Lord who are willing to be honest and vulnerable together , pray with and for one another , so the the need for others , God , self and others start start to take shape there . Well that's . You know that some of those elements have taken me a long time to learn .

So I , I don't I mean , I don't know how that's been for you , but it sure has been a long journey for me . Oh my , it's a lifelong journey , it is , it is . But to actually get to the place where I'm starting to institute different practices , you know , starting to actually new behaviors to reinforce .

I you know I won't say which circuit this was , because I've been in a number of them , a few different states , this kind of thing but I had one where it was all , it was all business and we didn't share deeply in the struggles and there wasn't even prayer . It just wasn't , there wasn't even prayer .

And the training of the circuit visitor is not standardized across our church body and so it's kind of willy-nilly . Hopefully you've got someone who's attuned to the needs of pastors and can allow them space to share the ups and downs of what's going on , not just in their ministry but maybe even their , their family .

I would love for that to be the case , right , but it's . It doesn't sound like it was in that one , in that one case for you and that's all .

They're out there hitting it every day , doing their best and God's working through them , you know , doing great things . So that please don't hear me saying anything other than that , Because I've seen that , I observed that too . But you know , it's that handful , Sometimes it can be small , maybe one or two initially .

Who they get it , they , they , they can talk with you , pray with you and for you , so that's , that's a huge deal . I mean , we could break this down in different categories and so forth , but I think it's those three dimensions which are sort of my starting point when I think about soul care .

Tell me what's going on in your relationship with others . Is there a depth there ? Or is there , you know , maybe a sense to isolate and then talk about ? Talk about what you , what you think , what's going on in your own thought life , to maybe challenge some of those presuppositions ? Is that what I hear you saying ?

Maybe even a framework for questions that a brother or sister could ask of another ? Is that ? Is that pretty fair , rick ?

He does a good job of putting the cookies on the lower shelf . You know what I mean .

It's global problems , right , so the things can be elected . The GOP who's going to get that nominee , or whatever , or it's , or it's a . You know , I'm a Denver Nuggets fan . Denver Nuggets love to talk about that or what's going on in the economy today and like we're going to , you know , fix , fix , those types of things there's .

We love to stay high level problem solving , kind of emotionally sometimes detached , and for good reason . For good reason , we need to make simple , you know , or strategic changes as we go on in our life or in the life of our congregation . There's some general leadership principles that are there , but guess what , guess what ?

Women are more attuned to Relationships and emotions . There was a study done I don't know where I heard this where they put women and men for 30 minutes just in an empty room and then said you're not going to get anything . There's no phone , there's no book , there's no , nothing .

We just like you to sit here and then we'll , then we'll come back and we'll have a conversation . So they came back to the men and guess what ? They asked them that , what were you , what were you thinking about ? And the men go uh , not a , not a whole lot . And the women came back . Women , what were you thinking about ?

I was thinking about a relationship and a conversation that I had recently and how the conversation could have played out more effectively . It's God fearfully and wonderfully made it . So I say all that to say I don't think that the soul care conversation . I mean a lot of men who listen to American information .

They probably already turned this thing off because it sounds so , you know , soft , probably maybe even effeminate . You want me to sit down and talk about what's going on in my soul or in relationships , it's like . I don't do that . I just don't do that , Rick .

So what would you say to that brother who has some hesitancy to even explore the depths of soul care ?

When's the last time you wept ? Well , if you can identify with Jesus there or you want to , I think we've got the great basis for a conversation and we can begin that journey together . Now I'm gonna share with you a funny story .

When , for my first child , we were going through Lamaze and they split us up like your illustration Women over here with newsprint men over there , newsprint list all the emotions that you're experiencing associated with this pregnancy and having a child .

So the guys get together and we look at each other , looked out at the floor , don't always make eye contact and somebody says happy , yeah , yeah , yeah , I'm very happy . Put that up there . Happy , someone else maybe ? They said , joy , okay , and I'm sitting there because I've been trained in this stuff . Right now , I know the emotions .

I can take them off , but am I gonna do that right there and then no , besides , wouldn't be feared it Take away from them their opportunity to come up with emotions . So but I venture out a little bit and I say fear , just silent .

I go ahead and write fear up there Quiet , though Kind of looking around I mean pregnant pause , and then someone says what'd you think about that cold scheme ? Yeah , yeah , and we're off and running . We're talking about football . From that point forward until our session is done , they bring us back and the facilitator says okay , let's see your lists .

And our pathetic little list had about three emotions . Then the women pulled theirs out . They had a full column , that whole newsprint . We're talking the big page stuff , right , and they starting on a second column . And one young guy in my group bless him for this .

He speaks up in the most genuine way and he says you know , we didn't even know where there were that many emotions , which was so honest . I said that was that , of course . That stayed with me for a long time . I couldn't tell you how to breathe , but I'll tell you about the emotions Study there .

You know , men are socialized and this was part of an important part of my doctor thesis actually was on the socialization of men and especially around the difficult , vulnerable emotions you know , like loneliness , and and and and and disappointment , and fear , and and .

What has happened because of the socialization process is that all these , all these multiple , vulnerable emotions get funneled into one emotion , namely anger .

And so when you find somebody , a man , who's angry , you're going to want to back up and first of all you might have to give him , you might have to teach him , a language for emotions to be able to access that stuff . We don't even have a language , like the young man said , we don't even know there were that many emotions .

So what happens is you either hit the anger or you stuff it . And if you're a pastor or church worker , you know anger is not acceptable . So boom Under it , go beneath , it goes right . Well , anger's gonna be , it's gonna show up somewhere , it's gonna erupt at home . You go home , kick the cat , whatever , or the .

The corollary is anger , turn inward , results in depression , sadness , or what we often like to do is withdraw , just check out , cut off emotionally right .

How do I know this stuff so well ? Because I have been there , man , so many times .

Just do I have one or two guys in my world that can sit down and just ask me how's it going ? Yeah , no , really , really how's it going ? And Tell me about , tell me what's going on in your , in your soul , and yeah , and we would have . I have a I don't know certification and coaching , but kind of the the heavy stuff .

But then a lot of times when you nail down okay , what do we really need to talk about here , rick ? It does have to do with matters of the heart and I've really enjoyed this conversation today because I'm a , I'm a driven type , a Firstborn , all of that athlete still an athlete , rick .

By the way , I can still move and throw and all those types of things . You know 42 , I mean , I gotta say that for as long as I possibly can , right . It's like bless you so I need , I need yeah , thank you , I need men like you , rick , who are slower , more contemplative , can I'm sorry Listen . No , no , no .

Your speech , your speech pattern is delightful , man , I mean just slower . We don't what we got to go do . There's not much that we have to go do . Just be with one another .

And I've just enjoyed your presence today and I want to have you back on and talk more about emotional systems and More about your doctorate , because there's a lot to unpack as it relates to the socialization of men in our culture today . That Kind of downgrades men in many respects and what are the best parts of how ?

You know , everybody has a gifting gap , and men in general and and even then individual , how do we start to articulate man , I need the body of Christ to help me in this , in this area , and and I don't think we have the , the vulnerable conversation Very often , very naturally , the church has not been set up .

It's it's stuff , it , as you said , it's hide , it's run its posture . You know , at base motion to base emotions , really , pride and fear , anger , often connected to profound , profound fear of being exposed right . Women will close with this . Women , you know , a fear not being enough in comparison to other other women .

Men generally fear and love to get your thoughts , Maybe on this as we close down . Men generally fear being seen a lot about being seen our exterior as weak or inadequate In any respects , if you had the experiences along those lines . Differences between men and women , rick .

And we even have a drawer called our nothing box and we'll go every time if given the chance , right ? But the women's brain and he said he shows that it's absolutely interconnected with everything . You know , you touch one , you pull on one . Be careful what you're pulling on , man , because you pull on one , you're gonna get a lot of other strings .

That's just a great place to start right there . You have to know some basic things like that In our culture , yeah , gonna miss each other , and and we ?

How can they do so ?

Please like , subscribe , comment , wherever it is you take in podcasts and we promise to have leaders , lovers of the Lord Jesus and those who have been loved by him , like Rick , dr Rick Meyer , back with us soon , soon , soon . It will be wonderful . We'll see you next week on American Reformation . Thanks so much , rick . Thank you .