¶ Commitment to God's Word
You know , people come and go , christians rise and fall , nations do , elections do . But finally , you know , our commitment is to the Word of God and to the Lutheran Confession .
Welcome to the Tim Wellman Podcast . It's a beautiful day to be alive . I pray you're resting in your baptismal identity as Jesus calls you up to be filled by him . He makes us his dwelling place , by his spirit , and then calls us to be shaped by his word and to carry that word out
¶ Introducing Dr. John Nordling
into the world . Today I get to hang out with Reverend Dr John Nordling and let me tell you a little bit about John . He is at Concordia Theological Seminary in Fort Wayne . He's been a faculty member there since 2006 . He serves as a professor of exegetical theology . He gets to teach many , many what he calls sons in the faith .
I love that Greek and love for love for then , not just Greek but the classics in general . He has a lot of experience in Lutheranism and the classics .
He hosts a biennial conference for pastors and classicists and educators to consider how classical language have influenced Lutheranism in the past and how Greek and Latin are poised to enrich the church , academy and culture into the future . He's written for the Concordia Commentary Series for CPH he is currently finishing up . He wrote Philemon , which I love .
He's currently figuring finishing up his commentary on Philippians and man . I'm excited to have that . He's also written on religion and resistance in early Judaism , greek readings in First Maccabees and Josephus . That's fascinating . And for the Concordia Peer Review series he's done a number of academic articles on the Pauline epistles , slavery and other social issues .
He's been married to his wonderful wife , sarah Ann , since 19 . You're celebrating 40 years of marriage there , john .
Can't believe it 1985 .
It does go fast . I'm at 20 years with my bride , Alexis . So how are you doing today , John ? What a joy to be with you .
Yeah , very good , I guess I didn't realize that we're on now . We were talking earlier . I thought we were on . So anyway , hello out there . Glad to be on .
Now we're really on . No , we were just hanging out . Sorry for not being more clear , so let's start here .
As you look , we're going to start like 30,000 feet from your perspective as an exegete in the Lutheran Church , missouri Synod , what do you think are the greatest cultural changes that have impacted the church in the past 20 years , and how has this shaped the role of pastor
¶ Cultural Changes and Timeless Faith
and ministry in our local context ? Any thoughts there , just to get us going , dr Nordling .
Well , I mean there are a lot of changes just to get us going , dr Nordling . Well , I mean there are a lot of changes . There's a lot of , you know , like just how we're able to do this interview .
You know I mean with technology , but I still , you know I'm a classicist , I've trained as a classicist , I went to the seminary and New Testament is what I teach .
So I guess you know I went to St Louis also , like you , tim , and one of my former favorite professors there was Dr Nagel , and he would always talk about inspecchiae eternitatis , you know , from the perspective of eternity , and so you know of eternity .
And so you know , people come and go , christians rise and fall , nations do , elections do , but finally , you know , our commitment is to the Word of God and to the Lutheran confessions . I mean that's our pole star , so , and then each of us are given a vocation where we serve others with the gifts that God has given us .
So you know , one of the things that people used to say when I was in graduate school at Wisconsin , doing my PhD there , was the more things change , the more they stay the same . More things change , the more they stay the same . You know , I mean , I got to teach classical mythology and the myths are a very profound view of reality , apart from Christ .
Okay , christ and the gospel are not part of that purview , but still they know human nature and people have known it for millennia . Okay , we don't know how old , how , how far back in time these myths go , um , but they've been around before the time of writing .
Okay , so , and the Bible is like that too , and um , uh , so um , we're here and and we're uh called by the gospel to faith . Uh , so , um , we're here and and we're uh called by the gospel to faith .
Uh , the , the center of a Lutheran congregation is the word and sacrament where it's presented publicly , uh to the believers and then through them , to the world . So I guess that's how I look at it . So you know whether it's 20 years I've been .
I've been here at the seminary now for , I think , 18 years , starting my 19th year , so roughly 20 years , but I haven't really seen that many changes .
Yeah , no , I think it's good , I think that's a right perspective . It's a humbling perspective . You know , I think a lot of times we in the West you can look at individualism , consumerism , you can look at technology . Sometimes I think we're more prone to think we're super unique .
You know , like this is , this is such an extraordinary , unprecedented right I mean that's a word that got used a lot in terms of , maybe , the COVID debacle like there's been famines and plagues and pestilence and stuff all the way down , like wars , rumors of wars , all that kind of it just is what it is in a fallen , broken world .
And so we want to have a right perspective of our time , teach us to number our days Right and and but then to recognize we are held by , supported , mobilized , equipped for ministry in our respective vocations by the God who is above time , which kind of blows our mind right . That just , I think God kind of looks down at us .
This is one of the things I've been wrestling with , like what is God's posture toward us , right , dr Nordlien ? Is it one of anger ? I think it's one of fatherly love . You know , I look at my kids trying to make it , and my son this morning made a bad choice .
He was out late last night at a track meet , you know , and so this morning he made the choice which will have consequences for to sleep in , you know , and miss first period . We had a little conversation about work ethic , you know , as he was getting going .
Sometimes we got to do things and show up when we don't feel like showing up and probably , but the tone of it's like it's love , son , god's got good things for you . I want my law .
The law is here to help you not stumble too , but I think the posture of our heavenly father toward us , in the face of Jesus , is one of love and care , and he's not angry . Anything more to say about the posture of God toward us as we're just trying to make it through the world .
Well , this God , who is above time , entered space and time in our Lord and Savior , jesus Christ , and of course that has all of the implications . I mean the understanding of the Lord's Supper , for example , in the Lutheran sense that God uses bread and wine to convey the body and blood of Christ . So it's both bread and wine and body and blood of Christ .
It's not one or the other , the way Roman Catholicism or the Reformed teach , and it has a perspective on who we are . Also , my baptism into Christ , where I die and rise with Jesus . I was baptized before I even remember , you know , but I've always in a sense been in the church and , god willing , always will be so . And I'm old enough .
I'm almost 68 years old now . I mean I'm not a spring chicken . I'm old enough . I'm almost 68 years old now . I mean I'm not a spring chicken . But I've made some mistakes but by God's grace , have landed very well .
You know , the seminary here is a great place for me personally and my wife is not as blessed as I am , but she's with me , as blessed as I am , but she's with me , and it's just such a privilege to teach young people studying for the Office of the Ministry and Deaconess students too . They have an important role in our world . You know who am I ?
I mean , sometimes I feel the only thing I can really give them is don't
¶ Seminary Professors and Formation
do what I did . Do as I say , not as I do . Because you know , the things that drew me to seminary were not I didn't really want to be a pastor , I wanted to be a professor . I mean I realized that long ago before I went to seminary and I love theology and all of that .
But I mean I was just quite taken by all of the things that pastors are entitled to learn , you know , starting with Greek and theology . And I was good at it , you know . I mean I learned and I had great professors at St Louis when I went through . Horace Hummel was my favorite professor . He's probably before your time .
He was around as a retired prof kind of an adjunct .
He taught a few courses . I never had him . Had him though . Yeah , yeah , well , he , he was a very he was a very interesting fellow . Yeah , tell me about him . He had foibles and and he was . We liked to imitate him , and he was also a very tough professor . A lot of my fellow students didn't like him .
You always paid a price when you had a Hummel course . The best class , best grade I ever got from him was a B , you know , and I worked my butt off , but he designed 200 pages of reading per night and and and he and you know he was , he was just kind of really tough with students .
Another professor that I didn't like when I graduated but came to like better was Bill Schmelder .
Okay , no that he's definitely before my time . Tell me yeah .
From whom I learned law , gospel , polarities , and he seemed to think it was his business to take us down a notch . So the tough professors . And then Nagel , of course , was a great professor too . He was much more benign , you know . He loved students .
You would go to his office and he would just talk and make you were like the center of the universe when you were in his presence .
So each of them .
The St Louis Seminary that I was at was a great blessing for me . I feel I got a great education there and now I'm very much a Fort Wayner because I've been at Fort Wayne since 2006 . You know , I mean , david Scare is just a tremendous theologian and I love his wit and his acerbicness and irony .
You know , he embodies Jesus in a way , because Jesus was that way . Jesus had a sharp wit and you could never , you know , back him into a corner . So hey , I'm curious .
What was I talking about ? Go ahead , well , I'll follow up .
I want to follow up , Dr Norley . I'm losing my train of thought .
Anyway , I'll jog it . Here we go . So what was it about the generation , let's say 60s , 70s , 80s ? You mentioned these professors . Yeah , get behind the curtain a little bit , because I had Dr Block taught me Greek at Concordia University in Nebraska .
Yeah , and this goes back .
I was vickering there when he came Wow , okay , okay , so that's over , overcomer . I mean he was tough , like there was no , like skirting around responsibility , and I mean the memory work was intense , like I don't know that they make them and maybe there's good reason why , but in that season it was the discipline in the academic rigor .
Maybe there's something in our culture today and I'm not saying we should just like willy nilly , don't like if you're a professor , please don't be a jerk .
Right , there's a lot , there's a line , but there is a sense of calling upward by high expectation that maybe , unfortunately today the bar you could say is is lowered in some context and uh , so yeah , any any thoughts as to why that may be . And professors like dr block are hard to come by today yeah .
So when I went through , uh , when I was in high school , that's when the big synodical civil war happened , right right , and I grew up in Oregon , so the Northwest District was kind of on the Semenex end of things , but I had a great pastor , pastor Stockkamp . He tried to educate the congregation in what was going on .
He was very much a stickler for memorizing the catechism and all of that . But a lot of the other churches in that area were not that way .
So anyway , and then I went to Concordia , portland and Valparaiso and when I was at Valparaiso I was very much into the , I thought , like a Seminex person thought , and because of my mother I decided to go to St Louis rather than to another seminary like Seminex .
And so when I was at St Louis I had a lot of kind of unlearning to do and the first year was tough , but I really appreciated Hummel and Nagel and people like that and really , and so I made my choice you know , I made my bed to be in Missouri and I've been , haven't looked back .
I mean , I've been very thankful for it and I've tried to beat the old liberals at their own game because they were tremendous historical critical people . So you know , the way is to read the Bible historically but not yield to historical criticism , whether we call it historical grammatic or whatever , but use the science and look at the Bible historically .
That's why I got a degree in classics , because it was too dangerous to get one in Old Testament or even a New Testament , I figured . So I decided to go outside the canon . So I mean , that's basically where I was coming from at the time and so St Louis really helped me at that time to go on in grad school and classics and become a pastor
¶ Being a Classicist and Biblical Study
in Chicago .
Could you educate us , Dr Nerdling , on what it means to be a classicist ? That may be , for some of our listeners that's something that is , that's probably a word they don't always come across in their everyday . So what does it mean to be a classicist ? And what does it mean then , in turn , to study the scriptures using the classics ?
You said you came to the scriptures through the classics rather than through traditional Old Testament , New Testament , kind of exegesis . So just say more there .
Yeah , there's not too many of us left . I mean , when I went through St Louis there were four professors that had degrees , phds in classics . Now I think I'm the only . No , that's not true . John Bruss , president Bruss , he's a PhD in classics . So there are a few of us .
But it means to study Greek and Latin , you know , and have reading courses and read the languages in the original language and work up to it . And for the PhD I taught Latin . I taught a lot of Latin already as a grad student , and then classical mythology . So I mean that gave me a good background for the scripture .
So with Philemon , when I did Philemon , I was able to get into , you know , extra biblical sources like Cicero and look at papyri and inscriptions and things like that . You know , and maybe even not too many pastors are that interested in it , but I really am . And it makes it . You know , christ entered space and time .
You know I mean , otherwise it's just a shot in the dark , so so . So when I'm working on a text , I have to read the Greek . I have to . I mean , it's like Samson and his long hair . If you cut off Samson's hair , he's weak If I don't look at a text in the Greek original . You know the New Testament .
I have nothing to offer because the translation can go in so many different ways . You have to know the text and you have to know what . Well , to be a pastor , in my humble opinion , okay , you need to be able to use it when you take a call and enter the ministry and you need to continue to work with it .
I mean , it's not an option this is why you're being paid by your congregation is to read Greek deeply , in my opinion . Okay , not everybody agrees with that , but that's where I'm coming from .
Not everybody agrees with that , but that's where I'm coming from , and not only is it a privilege to do it , but it's an obligation , because that will affect the type of preaching and teaching that you do . You have to be rewired when you take Greek . Okay , it's a laborious process , it takes time .
We do it in 10 weeks , so I quiz those guys four days out of five . It's not an easy class , but they end up loving it because I make it fun . We do singing , I have a cartoon , we also do composition , where we go from English into Greek , because I think one of the problems of our Missouri Synod has been learning Greek too passively .
You need to do it actively , and even the students that are having trouble with Greek can learn that way . I mean , if they don't do the composition sentence , they're very mad because I didn't call on them and they were prepared . So there has to be a kind of a competition . All right , so what do they say ? Iron , sharpens iron or whatever you know .
So , and that gets them ready for then doing theology . I mean , it's about producing pastors who are theologians . So pastors , in my opinion , should be professorial and professors at the seminary should be pastoral . Okay , both of them come together and even if you're a parish pastor , you need to be a theologian .
You need to be able to demonstrate your study and learning theology at a high level and not watering it down , because if you water it down , you will change the doctrine of the church . That's what's at stake .
No , I 100% agree . Tell me your perspective on tools like Logos and other tools that are being used right now . When I entered in , I got all my Hebrew syntax books , my concise Hebrew and Aramaic lexicon of the old time .
I mean , I'm looking at those books right now and a lot of them are not out of print per se , but a lot of students are using logos today . So what are your thoughts there ?
Yeah , well , you got to realize you're dealing with a Luddite . The Roman poet Horace said Odi apparatus persicos I hate Persian apparatus . So I don't know how to use the whiz-bang tools . And I go to scholarly conferences and some of them have tried to hook me and draw me in .
The two tools that I use , even writing the commentary , is Moulton and Geaton's Concordance of the Greek Testament okay for parallel passages and relationships within , like a gospel . And then the other one that's absolutely indispensable is BDAG , bauer , danker , arndt , gingrich . Those two tools are very good and that's how I try to get my students to use .
Now , of course it's good to read commentaries , but they don't have time to read a ton of commentaries . They should just read the Concordia commentary . But then I try to get them to do their own work , their own fresh exegetical work , and some students do it and a lot of them don't .
I mean , now I am a tough professor , the circle has turned full , so , but still I'm able to work with a lot of them . And you know I tell the students , no professor does it exactly the same way . So try to learn from what I bring and hopefully that will be balanced out by what another professor brings .
Okay , and probably that's how it is for pastors as well .
But if you can get them working with the text , if you can get them , you know , like our New Testament Greek readings , if they're able to have a winkle and meet weekly with other pastors in the area over a Greek text , spend the first hour just on the text itself and then get a cup of coffee or a donut , then the second hour work on how we're going to
develop this homiletically . Okay , that would be a morning well spent , in my opinion . And there are , you know , unfortunately , some pastors now that don't really know Greek very well , or if they've even studied it , like the SMP people you know . So what are we going to do with them ?
Well , if they meet together as a group over the text , that will help them and maybe get them interested in wanting to study Greek from someone like me .
OK , so toward that end , do you do you have , are your classes like online ? If someone just wanted to engage with you , that's out in the field like online .
if someone just wanted to engage with you , that's out in the field they are . But , tim , here I'm going to part company with something I've heard you say many times in other podcasts . I've watched you for they can take me . I have an online Greek course but they never learn it as well because they don't do the composition .
And plus , the seminary is just such a great place . It's the center of a student's life for a time . And the chapel you know the worship in our chapel is the best in the entire synod , in my humble opinion , you know . It's just so wonderful , it's so well done and it equips a young man to go forth and do likewise when he becomes a pastor .
So , yeah , I mean , I've thought , and you've been one of the things a common recurring theme in the podcast I've watched with you is what can we do to get more people ? As I've watched with you is is what can we do to get more people , more produce , more pastors ?
Maybe what we could do is have the Greek class and have it remotely done , where people were connected remotely . It would be a lot more work for me , but it could probably be done that way , you know , so that they at least get that beginning initial class and get them into the kind of the exegetical sequence .
Yeah , but still , there's nothing like being on this campus and also St Louis . These are , these are . This is hallowed ground . You know it's important when you come and you want to make the most of your time . That's how I see it , so sure .
And , would you say , the local church where Word and Sacrament takes place ? That's also hallowed ground too , right , dr Nordling ? Of course , yeah right . So there's no competition .
I ask that in all honesty because it's I think it's both , and right now , and too often I think we're going down a path where it's kind of competitive either or and that's certainly not the overall long range conversation I'd like to have I want my son to go to one of our seminaries if the Lord calls him into ministry . I want him to be in residential .
I think it is and some in the circles that I run may take issue with me I think it is the best way to do it . Now , I don't think it's the only way to do it , understanding the times in which we live , but I think it is the best .
And I think , if we can , if we can develop more of a , of a partnership to to reach people , to say , hey , there's a way for the , the second career guy , to get trained , and I think I think we should raise the bar on on smp . That's , that's my humble , humble opinion . Um , and and I said to to look down on our .
That's not just looking down upon those that have gone through that program , but , as I was talking with uh , both seminary presidents a couple of weeks ago , it's , it's not . It's not a full MDiv right it's , it's maybe a third to a half and and the languages , I think , being one of the opportunities to elevate that learning .
And here's a shout out too , I think if we offer it connected to the seminaries , if it's made accessible , a lot of our guys , whether they've got SMP or they're exploring future pastoral ministry , they would love to take it .
So , yeah , I think it's not a , not an either , or and I think you know I am kind of one voice and face in this whole conversation , that I think and I really appreciate you taking the time to be with me today that sometimes folks may think I have compromising intentions regarding formation . Nothing could be further from the truth .
I would just like more A heightened recognition of there are other ways to do it , which means we don't have to compromise . I think we should use technology for bivocational and co-vocational leaders . I've talked a lot about that , but I think that could boost our seminary in-person programs . So yeah , any thoughts there , dr Nordling ?
Well , yeah , I know that some of my favorite students are SMP guys that have just sensed that they need the Greek , you know . So they come and they kind of remind me of the 10 lepers . Nine of them didn't come back to thank Jesus , but one of them did , you know , and that's that's how I get their , their extreme gratitude .
And I think the SMP , I mean OK , I mean you can't , the genie is out of the bottle , right ? I mean you can't do away with Internet technology . It's here to stay , and
¶ Theological Education and Greek
so how can you use it optimally ? I mean , I think that's the question . And I think too that in its current form , smp is kind of modular . So you get them started and maybe their ordination is a little too early , but they're ordained and they're working as pastors in their current situation .
But then it's set up so that later they can take more and build on what they're learning . And you know what ? That's how it is for every pastor , even those that are very well prepared . I mean it's all about finding your voice in the pulpit . Okay , that God gives you , finding your voice there and being comfortable and giving out the gifts .
So the MDiv is not something that we're supposed to all be impressed with , but it's a gift to help others . So is the PhD in classics . The whole point is to help others , to help the church and to get people who wouldn't know Greek or Latin to just see how cool and wonderful it is .
So I've given my life to it and I've put my wife through a lot of heck , you know , to get me to the training I've had . But now I'm , in a way , god has allowed me to give some of it back . You know so , and that's how it is for any Christian we die to the self and live to Christ , our Lord .
Well , let's just hang . I hear you talking around humility and maybe we'll piggyback this into Philippians , right , the higher you go , the more you should realize how much you don't know . And the way of Jesus is the downward trajectory , right , it's the upside down nature of the kingdom .
And I think sometimes in formation , right , the worst thing that could happen is a guy gets done with his studies and says I pretty much have figured out everything as it relates to theology and ministry . And it's like no , no , no , it's a lifetime of learning .
There's always other disciplines and I think if the pastor maintains that curious , humble heart like I , know a fair amount about these things like that's great . My grandpa , who was a pastor , Dr Nordling , super old school . I remember early on he said don't get the big head , Tim . I was like 16 , 17 or something , you know . Did you give yourself these gifts ?
No , They've been given by the God of the universe for you to steward , but they're not yours , they're , they're his . So maintain a humble posture . Any , any comments around humility , and I mean the . The best humble chapter I would say in all the epistles is Philippians , chapter two . So anything more .
Yeah , well , Christ him , and it happens . That's what I'm working on right now the . I'm working on right now the spring . I'm working on the Christ hymn . That's the last major part of the commentary I have to do . I've done that last because I felt I needed to know what the rest of the letter says .
So what do you learn ? Can you get us behind ? Yeah , tell us about it .
Well , I mean , as every Christian knows , the Christ hymn is divided into the inundation or the ex-inundation of jesus , his downward descent and then his exaltation in verse nine . You know , uh , the name which is above every name , that at the name of jesus , and etc . So , um , um , but uh , jesus is , you know , is he , is it ethical or is it charismatic ?
That's , there's a big debate about that . In what sense is you know ? Paul begins in chapter 2 , verse 5 , have this mind among you , which is yours in Christ Jesus . So I think the plain sense is that he's sending , setting Jesus out as an example for us . But of course we're not saved by keeping the code , you know .
We're saved by grace , through faith for all of us . But then not only Jesus is presented that way , but so is Timothy , so is Epaphroditus , so is Paul in chapter three , so are the other named Christians in chapter 4 . Uodius , syntyche , clement and the noble Yokefellow , whoever he is . So it's all paradigmatic .
And God puts us in a place to be fed by the spirit around word and sacrament , but also to help others . You know , to help others , and that's why I'm glad you invited me to be on your show , because I think a lot of your people listening to me haven't heard of me .
You're not part of the Fort Wayne bubble , okay , but I'm glad that I have an opportunity to you know , to vent my spleen a little bit . And you know , because I was trained at St Louis . I mean , like you , I'm a St Louis alumnus , but here I am teaching at Fort Wayne and loving Fort Wayne .
So you know , it's what do they say Wherever God puts you in the wilderness , make it into the Garden of Eden , basically , amen .
Well , preachers love the Kingsmen and we're partners .
That's because you always beat us .
Well , we almost lost one year . I don't know if you know this , dr Earl . This would have been in 2004, . So just five or so just before you got there , there was gosh what's his name ? He's actually teaching at Concordia Seminary . People are listening . Yeah yeah , yeah , I know , he went to college Lane .
Jason Lane , jason Lane , there we go .
And Jason was very good , yeah , and we only had I think we had a few guys heard or away or something we took like six or seven guys to a game against the Kingsmen and Jason was a fourth year at that time . I was a first year . I was a first year .
I was playing with pastor named Jeff Claytor I don't know if you know that name and I don't think Pete Nafsker , he's a prophet . The seminary in St Louis was there , but anyhow , we were a little undermanned and I fouled a guy with five seconds to go or something like that . And we're on . The preachers were up one and he and he that God bless him .
He missed both free throws . Wow , we barely won . I don't know if the Kingsmen have won since then .
Yeah , they did . Three years ago they beat St Louis here on our turf .
I'm sure that was very exciting . I go back for an alumni game every . The Peterson Fieldhouse just had its 75th anniversary . Yes , I saw that . Yeah , and I I played just this last week and , uh , it I don't know how many more years I actually a funny , funny thing and there's a video of it which I've not posted , anything like that .
I , I got the ball , the game was tied and I I hit it . I made a three with like 10 seconds to go and the crowd , so the alumni actually beat we . They didn't play all of their best players , to be honest , because we were all in our 40s and 50s .
The Hainer brothers , which shout out to Mark Hainer he loves Greek and Hebrew , he is an exegete of , he's a fantastic pastor , all of them , all of them are . But anyhow , it's fun and I think that kind of the sense of competition I like I can compete toward Jesus . I like competition is not necessarily bad , it's when it leads toward division .
I can call you my brother and like I want to . I was just interviewing a young , a young teacher . She's 25 . She goes . I am in line with a whole host of teachers , educators , administrators , and she goes and I want to be the best . You know , there's this like godly sense of kind of drive to use our gifts well .
It can cross a line , I guess , and move toward pride or division , but I think that that call to offer our best in your line , especially connected to the word of God , which is the best , like that's a , that's a holy , holy thing . Any , any comments , though , to kind of the competitive nature of , of church leaders ?
Well , yeah , I mean we , we compete . I mean I'm thinking of Paul in chapter three . I think Paul has a sense of humor in a way . He he presents himself as an example . You know , he's a Pharisee of Pharisees , circumcised on the eighth day , all of this .
But then he gives it all up , you know , and it's like he's saying to get ahead in the kingdom you have to , you have to die to yourself . Really , that's what it's all about and there's kind of a twinkle in his eye . There's kind of vestiges of Pauline humor and people .
You know , that's one of the problems with the New Testament is people take Jesus and Paul
¶ The Christ Hymn of Philippians
so seriously . But actually Jesus was really funny , you know . I mean , this is why he was so popular with the crowds , because he had this keen wit . He was always up against the Pharisees who really were pompous jerks . He was always putting them in their place . How he did it is so creative . But we don't look at it that way .
We always look at him as Lord and Savior and of course he is that Lord and Savior and of course he is that .
You know , I mean his humor is sometimes worth expounding upon . I think , yes , well , we're coming down the homestretch here . Dr Nordling , let's hang with Jesus and the joy of Jesus . One of the funniest stories . I'd love to hear your top one or two funny Jesus stories the baptism of John . Where did it come from ? Right , right , jesus asked . You know ?
Well , if you can't , you know they're . They're , they're wrestling , the Pharisees are wrestling . Well , if you can't tell me that , then I'm not going to . You know , I'm not going to tell you this . I mean , he is so , um , ironic , you know he's , he's just so kind , but he just frustrates the heck out of the Pharisees .
You're exactly right , they don't have a sense of humor . You know , they don't know the joy of like . Somehow the joy of the delight of the Father has left them and I think there's humor all over . I think when Peter has breakfast on the beach with Jesus I don't know if it's humor I see Jesus like smiling as they're like . You know , no one says anything .
They knew it was the Lord . You remember this . And then , Jesus centers in do you love me ? You know , yeah , you know , okay , here's , here's your call . I think there's . Jesus is so delightful Um , I don't know if that's an adjective you normally use . He delights over us and then he delights when we find joy in the world when we laugh together .
So funny stories from Jesus . Top two or three , Dr Nordling .
Well , I think you know more about that than me , because you're preaching every week and I don't . I mean , I preach quite irregularly , I'm a professor , so I teach , and I'm not even teaching right now , I'm just writing . But for example , he says you know , can you get grapes from thorns ? You know that's . You know stuff like that .
Do birds or the lilies consider the lilies of the field , how they never toil nor spin . Not even Solomon is arrayed in all his glory as one of these . Stuff like that . That would have been quite humorous the first time they were heard and that's why they were recorded .
You know , in Matthew's gospel and I believe you know , david Scare believes in the early dating of Matthew and I basically do too . But it's the foundation upon which the other three , two synoptic gospels depend and even the rest of the New Testament .
So when Paul wrote Philippians , he may have had Matthew's gospel as one of the texts , in addition to , of course , all of the Septuagintal Old Testament readings as well .
Let's just stay with Matthew for a second . What is the early date for Matthew that you— .
Oh gosh , I don't know if I— it would be . I think that I might get this wrong . I think David Scare would argue early 40s , 40s , okay .
Yeah , I think Within a decade or so .
Yeah , but Luke is going to be quite a bit later . That would be at the end of the 50s .
Oh , end of the 50s , okay .
Coinciding with the three missionary journeys of Paul that are depicted in Acts . And then we would date Mark later still , you know , and John's the latest Mark in priority . So Mark coincides , I believe , with the great fire of Rome , which is 64 AD , as recorded by Tacitus . And then you have John . You just asked about John .
Well , bill Weinreich , who's writing the commentary on John , thinks that the Johannine Gospel is early , so he parts with David Scare on that issue . But I guess I , like most people , think that John is later . Sure , you know , at the end of the first century .
Yeah , why does he say it's early ? I'd be curious .
I don't know . I should know that better . But he's got his reasons .
Well , it's definitely distinct , yeah it is I mean the upper room discourse one of my favorite pieces of scripture , right ? Yeah , I'm just . I'm just throwing out a hypothesis . Maybe because he's so clear with the discourse , he's not always telling a story Like John 13 through 17, .
This is one of the longer sections of Jesus talking in all of the Gospels , so maybe that's one reason it could be earlier . But the Chosen you know we don't espouse everything on the Chosen , right ? It's extra biblical , the show . Have you watched any of that ?
no , I haven't . What is the chosen ?
oh , it's just a , a fascinating story of the life of jesus in long , in long form . You know , uh , they , they will have other conversations . They're trying to make jesus , he's funny in it , he's accessible , they're to the story . But then there's other conversations that take place .
So think of like a miniseries , adding , adding things that took place that we don't know , kind of behind the scenes . So some exegetes are like I don't know that . You can , you should , you should do that necessarily , but you know it's a . The reason I bring it up is they have John connected to Mary as she's helping him .
Now , I don't know where they get this . I guess this is here's your mother . You know like they had a closer relationship with Jesus , jesus
¶ Jesus, Humor and Gospel Dating
, mother Mary moving forward , that maybe she was there helping him . Remember some of the , some of the details . Don't don't know exactly if that's accurate or not . Anyhow , this has been fun . I've about got to get to another meeting .
Let's close with this question what are your top two or three hopes for confessional Lutheranism , especially in the LCMS , in the coming years , dr Nordling ?
Well , I hope that selfishly , that what I bring to the table will bear fruit . You know that more pastors will learn Greek well , not fewer . Because I think it's very important for the ministry that goes on in our secular society , which is so turned against the Lord , that congregations can become bright places where Christ is met .
I think that the church of the 21st century is kind of like the church of the first century . You know , right now we have a Caesar in power that many Missouri Synod people like Donald Trump , but that can very quickly change . Like Donald Trump , but that can very quickly change . And no , you know , trust not in princes . They are , but mortal .
You know , as the hymn says , so that the congregations will do well . You know missions are going pretty well . I've been going to Africa . I've been 14 times to South Africa , oh wow . I've been going to Africa . I've been 14 times to South Africa , oh wow . And there's a great hunger in Africa right now for Fort Wayne professors and seminary professors .
I've been to Tanzania and also Kenya and Nigeria four times . So you know we're highly regarded in the world outside of the Missouri Synod . You know we're highly regarded in the world outside of the Missouri Synod and a lot of Lutherans , world Lutherans , want to learn from us . Right now it happens that way , so I think that will .
I've been telling the African students that I teach that maybe you're going to have to become missionaries to America , that I teach that maybe you're going to have to become missionaries to America because in our inner cities they're not going to listen to a white guy like me , but they may listen to you , you know , and I mean I really do think that the time
is not far where that could happen , but that we just be faithful with the things that the Lord gives . Something else is this whole CC .
I know you interviewed Christian Preuss , but that is really a very exciting movement where the Consortium of Classical Lutheran Educators , where they're doing a lot of homeschooling , teaching Latin and classical subjects , that movement is really taking off , you know , and it's kind of , in a way , back to the way things used to be , but not really .
I mean , it's very present focused and future focused , because these children are getting a very good education and that will take them places . So , even while classics is kind of dying out because of wokeism and so forth , latin and Greek are taking off in our circles .
Okay , so I just last summer went to the CCLE annual meeting in Seward and I was just amazed they had 500 people there . They're bursting at the seams and a lot of our Fort Wayne grads are our headmasters or cantors , and I mean that's a very exciting thing too , that the Lord blesses us right with the type of Christians that we are .
So I guess that's what I'm thinking . That's wonderful .
I believe in the next 20 years or so . I think there is . I don't know if we'd use the term revival per se . Lutherans are skittish on revival . It seems kind of out of control , maybe charismatic or something like that .
But I think there's an awakening of our younger people toward the basics , toward what grounds us , and you mentioned a loaded word like wokeism . You know that , finding our identity I think it's a lot around .
Identity , dr Nardoleen , anything other than who we are as a baptized child of God and the mission that God has called us to by the power of his spirit , to bring his word that never changes , that grounds us , that is above us and beyond us , that that desire for you could say the transcendent , made evident in the person of Jesus Christ , is .
There's an opportunity for us right now , in confessional mission , missional and I will use mission like we're on mission to make Jesus known .
Right , we get to train up people in a variety of different vocations in our local context to see that the fields are ripe under the harvest , that there are people walking in darkness in need of the light of Jesus , and so , in the midst of disagreement in our church body and I'm , you know , as it relates to formation .
I guess I'm a voice in that wider conversation and I'm , you know , as it relates to formation , I guess I'm a voice in that wider conversation . I truly believe that exegetes like yourself hold the church together around our common mission and confession .
During times where we're just trying to I've used this word a lot , dr Nordling , it's a liminal space we're trying we don't exactly know how to get meaning not just around workers but mobilizing all of the priesthood . We know the church has walked through liminal times , the early church , like how is this all going to go Right ?
And within generations the gospel moved forward and became predominant . You know the way of Jesus became predominant in the culture and we could see a shift toward that end . And I think exegetes like yourself are huge , keeping us focused on Jesus and his word . So thank you so much for the time .
Dr Nordling , if people want to connect with you , I know you're on sabbatical right now . Thank you for taking time to talk to me People .
That's my email and then , if you're , interested in our next conference for Lutheranism and the Classics . That's going to be October 3rd and 4th 2025 . If you do a Google search for Lutheranism in the Classics , it'll come right up and you can look at , you can register for it already .
That's open so , but it's going to be a joint conference with the CCLE , the Consortium of Classical Lutheran Educators , so there will be a lot of people . There's going to be 40 papers , all Three plenaries , one banquet , 24 Lutheranism in the classic sectional papers , and then 12 , or is it 10 , 12 CCLE papers . So there's going to be 40 . So
¶ Hopes for Confessional Lutheranism
that's a lot . We're going to have a lot of energy here for that I love it .
So , hey , good stuff . What a joy to meet you via technology and looking forward to staying connected , praying for both of our seminaries and for churches at the grassroots , trying to be faithful , carrying by word and sacraments the message of Jesus out into the world . It's a good day . Go make it a great day .
Please like , subscribe , comment wherever it is you take in podcasts . That helps get the word out , as we at the ULC seek to have uniting conversations and also some harder , harder conversations . But this was a uniting . We can all agree , dr Nordling , the word of God and the original languages are a great thing to know , learn and preserve . It's a good day .
Go make it a great day . Thank you so much , dr Nordling . Okay .
Thank you so much , dr Northing . Okay , thank you .