The Things We Do... - Interview with Sarah Navin

This is the Things We Do podcast, a podcast about film, life, television, culture, mental health and all of those fun jazzy stuff. Today I've got my special guest and friend, Sarah Navin. Hello. Hi. Nice to see you. Nice to see you. You're so excited. I am so excited. Why are you excited? Let's see. The last time that I was interviewed or doing a conversational thing was all the way back in my like M.A.W. program. Oh, wow. This was a while ago. Baby you. And I'm a big yapper.

You are a big yapper. And I'm a big reciprocal yapper. I love hearing other people yap. Which is so great because I feel like it's also like you're such an interesting characteristic because I have stalked your Instagram probably for do you know what? Quite a few years. Really? Which is really interesting. And I don't think I've decided to reach out. Probably about three years I want to say. And when you came into the prominence of like the dark into webs.

But you know, like I remember following your Instagram handle. I don't even know how I found you. I think it was like to do with one of your like stories, which I found like really funny. It was to do with like people thinking you looked trans on the internet, which was always a laugh. That era. And that was probably about two, three years ago or something like that when that was sort of really big. Yeah. Yeah. And I was just like this person's funny. Like I'm just going to follow.

And then I saw you were doing like artistic creative stuff. So I was like, cool. This is actually not just funny. Interesting. Like I feel like those are two different categories. But no, like I'm going to cause not everyone on the internet knows you. I'm sure there's like pockets of the deep web that don't know who you are, but I'm going to give you like, tell me a little bit about yourself. Give me a bio. Give me the, tell everyone a little bit about yourself and who you are and what you do.

So I am, I think first and foremost, kind of a creepy content creator. I did a weird pivot. I studied for writing is my first love, just straight up fiction prose. But then when COVID hit, I was like kind of creeping my little hands around trying to find other things to engage in. And it ended up being web comics. I tried my hand at, and that was just when I got my like digital drawing tablet. And then that ended up being kind of the, the through way into the more public part of things.

Cause I mean, like the, the fiction, the lit environment is very, it's active, it's thriving, but it just doesn't have the same visibility as literal visual art does. And so once I started doing that, it was so much easier to like engage with people and share and stuff. And so the coin swallow Instagram became kind of my hub for better or worse. My goal is in like five years to just shut it down. Like it's going to be gone.

The moment that I can delete it, I'm going to like take myself out to dinner. But oh my God, can I just say, I want to be there. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. It'll be like a full on wedding reception. It'll be amazing. Yeah. So I do stuff there. And so I know how to write like traditional prose, switch that over to web comics that got picked up. Actually a producer out in LA said this might make a cool audio project.

And then, so I did a hard pivot bake it till you make it imposter syndrome into writing podcast scripts, adapting that story. Which is not. It's, it's such a weird, it was not something that I ever thought that I was going to move into. But it ended up, I mean, we've been working on it for, I mean, really scripting with, with echo verse, the production company. We've been doing that for like over two years now.

Wow. And so huge learning experience, but that's sort of the mode that I'm in right now with my brain. That's where the story darker further down has sort of migrated. Yeah. And the medium shift has completely cracked my brain open into a different, different thing.

Which is, which is great because I feel like you've kind of gotten the best pivot of career trajectory, which is not, not normal, particularly because you're going into like heavy audio world, which is completely different and very like horror sort of like podcasts and supernatural and like weird, weird stories like that. They don't really go into the podcast line. Like it's very niche. Like, and I think there, there's an audience there because you know, like there's you and me.

And I think, um, it is not as well known. So it's sort of like really interesting that that pivot has existed because you say, Oh Hey, audio to writers. And they go, why would I do that?

And it's really is an interesting medium because normally you'd think, Oh, I'm going to stick to a novel or I'm going to stick to pros like, or I'm going to stick to like TV or film, you know, they all, I think the best thing about the trajectory that you've taken is kind of just people go here's something, would you want to do it kind of like, you know, and what kind of like gravitates towards you. I mean, do you feel like it's strengthened you as a writer? Oh yeah.

I mean, I think it's strengthened. If nothing else, the story got a lot out of it. Uh, I would be interested to see if I tried this kind of move again with something else that didn't have the same kind of themes and tone to it. I think it would set me back a little ways in the learning curve because I've been thinking of like, to me, this story is, it is audio now and it is, um, like audio drama and that's where my brain has sort of situated it.

But then the next, like I've been working on a novel and then the next thing that's kind of nagging in my brain is a short story. And so I think that I would have to really prod myself to like get back into that head space. But I've, in terms of just literal stuff that I've learned, like final draft is the program that I'm using, which is it, I mean, just literally looking at the interface versus looking at a Microsoft Word document. I don't know.

You could probably study like what it does spatially to the way that you're thinking about material and the way that you're pacing things. And that's like a $300 program that they threw at me for being there. So I'm just rolling, but it's, I mean, it's such a weird, I think, yeah, I think I have learned a lot from it. I'm hoping what you're hearing probably is the hesitation to say that I'll be able to transfer those skills anywhere else. But I like to think they're in me at this point.

I think it's also like, you know, particularly something that you look at like back in the day writers, you know, especially when you had the typewriter kind of like mentality. And you know, that was the only way you could write. Like you had to do that and then you'd make copies and you know, so on and so forth. And it was all kind of like not fast. It was very slow and methodical. And I do think that like final draft, I love, you know, back when I was at uni, it was Celtics.

They would give us like, which is a, if you ever know Celtics is cheap, it's a very cheap product. It's not as good as final draft. Whereas I feel like final draft really, it's come a long way considering its inception, even when its first model was just kind of like TV scripts. It's now got like a lot of functions that can like deviate on how you script things. But also the thing I think is it's really good at like logistically thinking of things.

Like when you're writing something, you're like, okay, well, how logistically can I do this? Like how can I make this seem more interesting? And I think also like I'm a big AI fan now with chat to GPT, which I think that it's so weird, but it's so wonderful because I've, I've kind of like used it. If I'm stuck with a scene, I send it to that and I go, what is a good, like, this is the end point I want. How would I just lead into the next scene?

And sometimes it just gives you a great out that you just need to cherry pick if you've got writer's block, which ends terrible as a writer. It's like, don't use it to write your stories. Like, please use your own originality. But I do think it has its benefit of going, well, I'm smart and I can help you write something that kind of gets you out of a nook.

And then you can continue your story and then come back to this later where you go, oh, something because it does, like, I will say this, it writes dialogue terribly. It's not great with dialogue. But in terms of like narrative, like where your location needs to be or, you know, like, and then it just gives you a set of characters that, you know, like, man one or man two, and you're kind of like perfect. I now know that there's probably going to be like three other people in this scene.

Cool. Like I can just now flesh that out or, but if you have a narrative structure there, it tends to also be smart enough to take what you've done and summarize it and use it, which is very incredible considering the ingenuity. But I do also think I can understand people's like hesitation towards it. I think that's my love for it is because I'm in IT and I've often like loved AI for a long, long time. I'm also scared of it.

It's like one of those like terrifying like human brains that's going to one day overtake us. But, you know, like it is a fascinating like medium. And do you feel like, is it something you've sort of like learned about with Final Draft? Because that has a little bit of AI attached to it these days. Yeah. I mean, what I've found with things like ChatDBT, which just blew my mind so quickly, because I'm 27. And so I remember like I can do the dial up internet sound still, like I remember.

Which makes us sound really old. Exactly. And so I thought that we were going to be basically like, okay, the digital age, that's going to be our big jump is like, there wasn't really internet and now there's internet. And now also the internet follows you around. Like that I thought was a big enough change. And now to see like what AI was doing six months ago versus what it's doing now is like ludicrous. And I've actually found it most helpful because I gave in immediately.

I was like, I know there's some push to not even touch this, but it's so powerful that it's going to saturate everything. And I'm more comfortable figuring out my boundaries around it than trying to abstain from it in entirely, because it's going to, like any technological advancement, it's going to provide us a lot in terms of like the actual health of our communities and the knowledge that we have access to.

And so my favorite thing about it, using it for, as I've been writing this novel, is like these very, very specific questions about actual logistical physical things. So I have, in this book, I have a jar that has a human hand in it that is suspended in an alcohol solution. The hand has been treated with formaldehyde and it's preserved like any wet specimen would be in this clear jar.

And so I have a scene where I'm like, could this thing catch a sun ray in such a way that it magnifies through it and then catches papers next to it on fire? And I'm like that, I can get to the suspension of disbelief where I think most people would be like, sure, let her fucking do it. It's fine, it's cool. But specifically I was like, if somebody goes to stop this fire from happening, is the jar, my question was to chat GBT, which God bless it, it was a hard day for chat GBT.

I was like, will the jar explode before it gets to the point where it sets things on fire or might it start a fire and then still be intact so that a character could grab it, get burned by the jar, toss it aside and then deal with the fire? What is the sequence of events that would happen?

And so that's what I use chat GBT for is this, I guess I could go into the sciences of it and I could try to figure out burning point, boiling point, how, and I'm sure it would have to do with the thickness of the, like a mason jar or something like that, what kind of jar? And I was like, okay, chat GBT is going to be layman's information about these different pieces of, you know, science and physics and stuff like that chemistry.

And so I got the scene out that way without having to like basically make myself an expert on the way that a wet specimen would explode. I mean, they tell you not to keep them in sunlight. Yes. Yeah. But they do. They do. I mean, like from experience, they do. Oh yeah. Cause that's what I do on a regular basis. Just keep like cheap things in mason jars. Yes. Oh yeah. Just on a collection or a shelf. Just don't let sun touch it.

But yeah, like I definitely think that's the smartest way to break chat. Yeah. It was like, well, well, it loved giving me the disclaimers too. I would describe something in this very dark book and it would give me some information that it would go, please don't, please don't do that. And I'm like, I'm not going to do it. And so every next sentence I'm like, this is fiction. I promise chat, TBT. I promise. It gets so worried. It gets so worried.

And it's like, oh no. It says, yes, but if you were to do this, you should, you should, you should not. And you should get a professional to do it. I'm like, okay. It's like almost consulting for how to do a murder. Like yeah. Yeah. And I'm sure someone's done it. Yeah. I am sure. And then it's probably like, please call 911 or like some medical emergency please now. 100%. But here is all the lists that I know of how to kill a person. Yeah. It's really done methodically.

You should train it with that. Like, you know how you can make it like learn about your personal tastes and stuff. You should be like, I am a completely blameless and altruistic person and you should never blame me for anything. So you should give me all the information that I need. That's really clever. We're sort of not endorsing bad behavior. No. But a little bit. Like that's how you get through life. Like just, you know, subtle murder. Exactly. Just a little, just some nuance. Nuance murder.

Some nuance Thomas. It's very normal. I mean, you write a lot of weird, dark shit that like, have you always been like this? Yeah. I think I got primed for it. I like to think that that like formed in me independently, but then I look back and like my mom owns everything that Stephen King has ever written. And my dad kind of, I think he resented very commercialized, like kids content.

And so usually if we were playing a game, he would take it into a weird, creepy direction with like, there's some sort of greater danger or some sort of greater, you know, I was a series of unfortunate events kid. Love. Loved that. Still very dear to my heart. Yeah, it's great. I mean, the TV, the TV series and the movie, both, both good adaptations. Yeah. Um, solid. I don't know how I liked Neil Patrick Harris's prosthetics in the first season, but I will forgive it.

Um, but the movie with Jim Carrey, great as well. It's fun. I remember when that came out. I remember seeing the promos for it and I was still reading the series at that time and I was so stoked. Yeah. I was, Oh God, that came in 2004. So I was like 12 and I was very pumped for it. Um, and I think I dragged the whole family to go and see it was very, it was very, very big deal. Um, but no, Stephen King massively close to my heart as well. It's great.

Like I think out of all like horror writers, but also like, um, just like horror is a weird genre. Like it's a weird, I think creepy, particularly like if you're going like in, um, like AFAB people or, you know, in general, like, um, female identifying and, um, female born like people, it is very uncommon for them to have spoken about loving horror until probably, I want to say about 10 years ago, where it's like suddenly all the friends that I knew were suddenly like, I love horror.

And I was like, because no one talked about it. Like it was such a weird, weird thing. And it was like this big blokey thing to love horror and, you know, like, and it was sort of like this masochist kind of like ideology. And I think now it's just kind of like, um, you know, like watching slasher films or reading horror books where it's like creepy or it's unsettling. And I think like Japanese horror is like a massive like, um, uh, influence particularly on me.

And, um, but I've loved watching original, like, you know, the, they were very B grade films. They were very B grade quality, but like the original ring and grudge and all that, like just really, but, um, I think they've just released the spiral on, um, anime, which is Uzumaki. Um, I can never remember how to pronounce his name. Jujito? Yes. I mean, I probably, I don't know. I say it enough that I, you know, but it's so good looking like from the translation from the comic to the animation.

It's just like, it's like chalk and cheese, like it's really just brought across so well. Um, I said chalk and cheese. I don't know why. And cheese. Yeah. Haven't you heard that saying? I've never heard that saying. Yeah. I think it means I could be completely wrong because my pros sometimes are terrible. I love that.

I would rather you make sure that I like, this is the thing I've been, I've been called out by my mother who's like, who was an English teacher back in the day and then an academic, but she is like, your pros are like something to be questioned about. But I'm like, I am a creative, so bullshit and fuck that. Like I will make shit up to make it work. The thing is I was totally on board with, I, I contextually 100% understood what you were saying. So I'm not sure it even matters. I love it.

I'm very into, um, especially like personal idioms and stuff like that. When I worked in the, the writing center at my college, I would, um, students would be kind of nervous to come in and talk one-on-one cause your writing is a very personal thing. And, um, and so sometimes if I was bored, I would see if I could get them to say things, um, that weren't real. So I would, you know, I'd be working with them and I would ask, um, so, you know, do we have, uh, specific goals for this session?

Do you have things that you're particularly worried about? Or are we just kind of chasing chickens here? And some people would be, and God bless them. They probably just came from an 8 a.m. class. They would be like, I'm kind of just chasing chickens. I'd be like, cool, that's in your, that's in your lexicon now. Awesome. I hope that sticks. And you can use, you can use a lot of different things. I've been horrible about, um, abbreviating words lately, the sequences of my actions.

Oh God. Yeah. Why? It's funny. Take less syllable. Yeah. Oh, I mean, I love it. Um, I mean, are you a big old classic literature fan? Ooh. I cherry pick. I guess I'm not, um, I'm not beholden to particular eras, but like Wuthering Heights, big one for me. Um, Emily Bronte. Uh, yep. The, um, I guess, um, Greg Gatsby still that, that not quite like classic, classic early classic, but like, you know, Fitzgerald era. Um, and Mary Shelley. Love Mary Shelley. Yeah. And it's so interesting as well.

We're like thinking about Frankenstein particularly. Yeah. Um, how badly that has been translated to film over the course of many years because the book is so different. It's so beautiful. And Victor Frankenstein's an idiot. Oh yeah. A hundred percent. So bad. A hundred percent. He's not even like a doctor. He's a uni like dropout. Yeah. Like a basement. Yeah. And I love that. That's like, everyone's like, no, he's a professional doctor. I'm like, no, he knew nothing.

Like he fucked, he fucked in college. He was terrible. Um, but yeah, like I think what kind of like lasts the testament of a time. So these like, um, old books and old classic literature. And I mean like Dracula is one of my favorites, you know, um, particularly because if you look at it through the lens of like Gothic romance, it is kind of like Gothic horror romance. It is just kind of like this, everything is beautiful until it's not.

And then you realize how terrible it is, but there's a whole chapter like dedicated to all the men fawning over an unconscious woman. And it's just so creepy. And I'm just like, I forget that that's like the thing of the era of like, just when men seem to write like really perverted characters. But it seemed to be okay at the time. And then you look back on like in hindsight and you're like, this is, this is fucked. Well, at the same time, outlandishly queer story. Oh, a hundred percent.

Like, I mean, like all, all of these stories are very queer. Like you, you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, you know, I, but you know, the, the thing that I often look about, and I think this is like the thing, you know, discovering like sexuality as you get older, um, is something that the stories do lead into like all my friends who like horror ended up being queer. Yeah. Like it's, it's kind of like your gateway. Yeah. Big overlap. Yeah. But it's like so many stories.

I do think like, you know, people talk about heartstopper and all that, like comics being like my queer awakening. Mine was definitely just, you know, particularly with identification always rooting for the female protagonist. Yeah. And that was it was like growing up watching Alien. Um, like one of my favorite stories when I was a kid was like Coraline, you know, like things like that where it's just creepy, unsettling. And I wanted to be that character.

And I didn't, you know, there wasn't like, I just want to be with them. There was, I wanted to be there. Yeah. And it was like very different, like awakening versus like some people were like, oh, you know, like, I think everyone looks at Sigourney Weaver's career and goes, oh, it's Alien. But I'm like, she's amazing. I want to be her. Like I would love that career. That is amazing.

Exactly. Um, but you know, I do think, was that kind of like your own journey of when, like how you discovered your identity and like sexuality and everything? Like I think there's a really interesting, um, framework for femininity within horror. And I think we're definitely in like a golden era of sort of the, um, the feminine macabre and like feminine rage being in things.

We've had this weird, I think it was interesting that you mentioned the, the slow assimilation of women into the horror scene because with things like Mary Shelley, you know, that wasn't considered, I mean, it's, it's science fiction, but it's like a scary story, you know, and she really spearheaded that. Like that was the first proper science fiction novel. And yet it was like, we were sort of within and without for a really long time.

And with the like slasher era and that sort of, um, the bimbo goes first sort of like, that was the, um, the structure that we were used to. And you would hope that there would be a final girl that you could sort of project onto. But a lot of the time you had to sit there through so much violence against women in a weird way that it wasn't directed at the men sort of, um, that it was just like a lot of the mainstream stuff was intolerable.

And so then whenever you get to these sort of, um, like more creature feature things, more surreal, um, the, uh, Jew on the grudge was another one that really struck me. Both the grudge and the ring are less about, um, let's kind of abuse these vapid women on screen and we feel kind of bad that they're getting stabbed, but also like they were annoying and they were shallow. And so we don't really care. Like the camp zero killer stuff.

Um, whereas I think East Asian horror started a little bit ahead of us in terms of the like, no, you're, you're girl ghost or your girl, um, antagonist is sort of the representative of femininity and it's this very tortured, very vengeful femininity. And so, um, it's, it fascinates me that so many of our ghosts, uh, both in like, like Western culture, um, and like East Asian horror are these creepy young women that something horrible has been done to them.

And so there's that almost cathartic space for like, you can kill us, but you can't really kill us. Like that sort of thing. And then there's, um, like ginger snaps, these, you know, these creatures that it's like, okay, here's this vision of a girl, um, going through what a lot of us go through and then morphing into this unstoppable rain of terror and bloodshed. Um, and I think that's a space for it too.

So I think that the jokes on like Twitter and Tumblr and Instagram where girls are like, I'm not a girl, I'm a creature. Like I'm, I'm a, I'm some sort of fucked up little demon thing. I'm actually, I'm actually some sort of, um, you know, abhorrent abomination against God in reality. It's like, God bless them.

They're probably, yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure a number of them are, but I think that's just, um, a hyperbolic way to negotiate the difference between what a human actually is versus what women have been painted to be. Yeah. And so that definitely like, when I was in kindergarten, I wanted to be a werewolf. And so like, I didn't, I mean, I had some of the parts of like a sort of princess damsel fantasy, but oftentimes that's what I wanted to be was something that was kind of creepy and fucked up.

Um, because I felt easier. It feels like it's, it would be easier to kind of get really sharp and scary than it would be to get as soft as culturally we are asked to be, at least without becoming so vulnerable that it's like a hundred percent chance that something shitty is going to happen to you, you know?

And so I think that horror gives us a lot of like, it indirectly created a lot of spaces for, um, people outside of the like constructed gender binary and the constructed, um, like patriarchal expectations for people who aren't just like cis straight men to sort of conceptualize ourselves and be like, if I'm already going to be cast as something kind of bizarre-o, why not make it really cool? Like powerful.

Yeah. Yeah. I also think that like the, the notion of, of how we identify and how we sort of see has changed quite significantly and for the better, like Jesus, like I'm not going to say it's like we're taking, you know, and I do think it's interesting because I, I remember like, I have a very macabre sense of humor, like I love gallows humor, everything like that, which like, if you're going to laugh about something, it's, it's got to be about death.

Like, and, and particularly one thing I noticed this year, um, so a few months ago, my, my father passed away and we were at, we were at his funeral. I remember like, it was one of those things where I was like kind of almost just, you know, like in this weird sort of macabre state where you're like dealing with grief and you're like, okay, well it's been about a week, uh, since he died, you know? I've got to kind of like get through that.

And then suddenly you're going to go and start laughing about death and you just go, isn't it, isn't it like really funny? Like, you know, death being a thing and also like, what would you rather, because when you've seen death and when you've seen like the macabre, um, I have always been fascinated. Like my dad and I had a shared passion of like loving knowing what happens to you after you die. I love that.

And I particularly remember to the atrocity of my mom, we were both watching like a mortician video one night, um, and just being like, Oh, you know, what happens to the body after the, after they die? And I remember I looked it up. So after dad died, I remember I was like, um, they had requested if you want after he was an organ donor. So like they rushed my way to surgery and then, um, they're like, you can see the body if you want to. And like, I was morbidly curious.

I was like, what does a dead person look like? Like, and realistic answer is they look yellow and waxy. And it's just like, it's, you don't really get a sense that someone's there. You just kind of get a sense of like the body. That's it. Like you're like that person that I know is gone. Um, but it was very fascinating. And I was sort of like, I was like, wow, we really do look quite different.

And one of the things I scientifically remember was the, um, that when the bacteria that lives in our stomach, um, that create bile and all that, um, when they decide that the host is dead, they go, we're going to spread out. Yeah. Which is why we go yellow and waxy. And that is because it, um, the blood stops. And so it just goes through all the veins and does its magic. Um, and then you eventually start to break down.

But I remember particularly one thing that no one really thinks about when we die is because our body is working so hard to keep us alive. And then once we do die, you kind of go this sort of like almost skeletal kind of like thin, you kind of just like lose weight and you know, you look quite gaunt. And that was one of the things that I remember, particularly I had a photo of dad like 10 days prior to him dying.

And then I remember like, um, my mom was like, Oh, you can get another photo of him. And I was like, no, I don't kind of want to remember him looking quite like a corpse, but, um, but I do think there was sort of like an element to me where I was like, this is fascinating. This is what happens to literally everyone. Whereas like you don't, you don't look like yourself.

And I remember I was sitting down, um, sitting down with my, um, my partner, Emily, and I was like, do you want to see a photo of like, you know, cause they, um, did a photo of him in his casket. And I said, do you want to see? And she was like, look, yes, I'm, you know, I'm more than curious as well. And she had a look and she was like, God, it really doesn't look like him. Like it really doesn't look like it, you can kind of see him, but it's not him. And it sort of like that realizations.

Oh, that's weird. Like isn't that like, um, macabre, but it is fascinating because I think that always really stuck with me and it's sort of like, I remember we went to go and see Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, like not that long after, which, um, you know, just is ludicrously silly. Uh, and I want to like, I love the original so much.

It's like a childhood, like fantasy fun for me because, um, Winona Ryder and Gina Davis is basically like the two loves that I grew up with, but it was, I will give Michael Keaton just is great in the role of, um, Beetlejuice. And I particularly remember that that film is just such a great way to look at death where it's just like, Oh, we're, we're all fucked. We're all like, this is where we're all heading. And that's kind of like great.

Like, and I love the fact that we, we, you know, and I think about this from a regular point of why I love horror is, um, is it's like, whether you're, you know, spiritual, religious or anything, it's kind of like, it's all rooted in this just unknown.

It's rooted in so much of like what we don't understand in a human psyche and how we view like, you know, like, um, you know, the, as we were talking about monsters, you know, it's like the human psyche of like the id almost the psychological id of like, what drives us, what are our animal instincts? And you know, cause originally, you know, we are animals and we've all got like drives. So what drives us to do certain actions? The only realization is we've put rules around us.

Whereas like the rest of the animal kingdom hasn't because they don't have the way or means they've got their own sort of like sets, but they're like, they follow their own tribes. It's so interesting that is like worldwide we've decided to be like 8 billion people. Let's let's set these different rules, but per country and per state. And that's the weird thing. So how, you know, I think when you come to a psychological element, um, it's, it's just really like fascinating.

Um, but I do think that like going back to what you were saying about like monsters and you know, um, things that reminisced, you know, the damsel versus I love that because it's like, I feel like that's the thing that, you know, when frozen came out particularly and ever, you know, everyone wanted to be the Disney princess. I was like, that was based on a book that was quite dark and usually, yep. And creepy.

And it's so funny that Disney kind of like sweeped in and like, we're gonna be happy in line. But I love Grimm's fairy tales where it's like, you know, you've just got this not great thing. Like it's pretty awful. Like, you know, it's either a deal with death or disappointment or, um, like loneliness. Like, is that kind of like, what was the big thing when you were sort of like, you know, growing up that really gravitated you towards, you know, other than the werewolf moment?

Well, I think that, um, that, that point about like, uh, cultural discrepancies with the way that we deal with death. Um, I didn't know early on that there were so many other ways to cope with the presence of death than being just terrified of a corpse and being completely devastated by the death of somebody that you care about. And then being terrified of the inevitable death that you are marching towards at all times.

So I think like that felt like that is really the only, um, that's the only way to view it. That's the only natural way to view it. And then I, I guess because of that, it always felt like something that was lurking a little bit further back. I had a lot of anxiety about parent death, about separation whenever I was a Liddler. And so it's something that I think is one of those, like, if you have a bruise, you sort of feel like poking it every now and then just to check, see how much it hurts.

And so it's, it's such a, like, such a taboo, such a, um, such a weird powder keg of emotions for people, like that response of laughter and sort of like absurdity versus people who go into like full denial and they don't, um, their minds literally, they can't comprehend what's going on for the first 72 hours or something like that. Like it's, it's so frightening and how, um, much of a dice roll it is for a lot of people.

But then I started getting more into like Caitlin Doty, the, um, person who does Ask a Mortician, which is a great, yeah, it's a, it's a great YouTube series and, uh, she's written to my knowledge, I think like three books. And one of them that I read, uh, was, um, Smoke Gets in Your Eyes, which is her experiences, uh, being a mortician and working with bodies and things like that. And then there's another one that I think the, the subtype was like in search of the good death.

I don't know what the main title was, but she was going to these different countries and observing the way that they handle their dead and the way that they relate to that. Um, and it was through that and through her research and her insight that I realized that like even in America, we didn't start really hiding from our dead until about the civil war when it was like the people who are being returned to the home are like beyond recognition and it's very scary.

And, um, the specter of death is so unnaturally present because of war that it's like, we, we took to these, um, sort of, I mean, there was like the Victorian era of sort of memorializing your dead in that sense, but we did this slow crawl into just, I don't want to see it. I don't want to touch it, you know? But the thing is that most morticians, most, um, like funeral homes will allow you to participate in a lot of the process.

And so, um, you know, there's places that, uh, you can have a cremation and then the like incinerated remains can be put out onto a tray and there's a ritual of removing the bones with chopsticks that families will do. And that's part of the like dealing with the reality of the person being gone and sort of caring for it. Um, vigils are still, um, like a very big thing in certain cultural pockets.

Just like mainstream sort of middle-class America does that so rarely because it seems so freaky, but it's like to have a last ritual of, of care and of attentiveness, I think is really important for a lot of people. And so you talking about your dad and thinking about the things that you guys used to share together and your shared interests, especially when other people were like, why are you talking about that?

That's so tender to be able to like bring that specifically back into the way that you conceptualize that loss because then you're doing exactly what your loved one would want you to do, which is like, don't stop having the conversation. Don't stop thinking this is kind of funny and weird and interesting to chew on. Like that feels so like appropriate to honoring somebody, you know?

And um, so that's another reason why I think hospice really intrigues me as well and how we deal with people who are moving into the dying process. And I mean, horrible conditions, especially in America for people who are like having end of life care and things like that. There's a lot of people who should be on hospice and they're not, there's a lot of abuse in nursing homes and things like that. And part of that is because we're not comfortable having people dying in the home a lot.

And that's been very stigmatized for like for profit reasons for sure. But learning that like the body knows how to form in the womb, like literally your cells and everything, they know how to start life. And as a baby, like we are whack ass animals. Like we do not, we do not fight, our heads are too big. The, you know, the pelvis isn't where it should be, but like at the same time, the body knows how to start to be alive. And then in the same vein, it knows how to die.

And so there's hospice nurse Penny is somebody that I follow on Instagram, who she does a lot of like very frank talk about this sort of stuff and how to care for your dying person. And one of the things that's really hard for families to conceptualize is like at a certain point you stop having water because your body doesn't need it. Your body knows that it's preparing to die.

And so part of that sort of emaciation process isn't because the body has stopped knowing what to do, but it's, it's moving things. But yeah, it's condensing things for you. And it's, you stop having needs as much. And so like for comfort, you can do like a sponge, wet sponge on the tongue and the mouth and stuff like that. But people will still be so desperately trying to feed and bring water to their loved ones. And it's like, this is part of a process, you know?

And my thing too is like, let people, if Pop Pop wants to have his beer and his disgusting cigar, let Pop Pop have it. I'm like, can we please? I know. I think it's, I think particularly, you know, something that I was discussing with my mother, particularly my dad and her were in the States between April and May and then they were back in Australia. And the Australian healthcare is insane. We have like free healthcare, you know, and private healthcare. Yeah, I know. Just catch on America.

Yeah. Please God, before it's too late. Yeah. It's like, mom was saying she would have, you know, gone bust if she, if anything had happened to him here. I was in Australia, she paid 500 Australian dollars all up. He had like thousands, thousands of dollars worth of hospital care and all I had to pay $500 out of pocket. And it was nothing.

And I really think that it was really interesting because I remember talking to the nurses, there was, he had pulmonary fibrosis, which if people don't know, it's like a very common condition more so than people think and it's to do with scarring in the lung tissue. And over time you will develop clots and you will have difficulty breathing and then eventually your lungs will just give up. It's no cure. There's like, once you get it, you're basically, it's a death sentence.

So I remember particularly they sort of originally when I was getting messages in Toronto, I was like, they were like, oh, he's probably going to stay like when they take him off oxygen, he's probably going to have like a couple hours and then he'll eventually die. And when I got there, I remember asking the nurse, I was like, how long do you actually reckon it will be? And the guy was like about 30 minutes, I reckon. It was 15. Oh, wow. And it was the quickest way.

And it was, I was very grateful because I remember being there and being like, oh, this is actually really quick. But I remember like how, how, and I'm the best to deal with death out of my entire family. My brother is hopeless. I love you, Simon, but you are. I think particularly it's just, I know kind of like how to prepare mentally for it because it is, it is unpleasant. But I remember like the great thing was dad was sedated. He was not conscious at all during this process.

So I remember I said all I needed to say, um, that were kind of like, I sat with him. I remember I was telling him stuff. Um, you know, and the doctors are like, you know, there's a psychology element where you can hear auditorily when you're in a coma. Um, and I like to think he was like having dinner with the family and that was kind of like what he was imagining.

Um, but yeah, it's so, so surreal because I think like all these nurses who were super duper lovely, they were just like, yeah, you, the amount of families that you see who just don't know, like, you know, they run away the first time someone gets sick and to see someone, you know, someone had their entire family around them, um, just want to say goodbye to him is just so nice and refreshing.

And I think particularly like, I remember like mum, this was such a nice thing after he died, but I remember mum was like, I'll go through his tablet and you know, see all these things that, um, my, you know, like be good for the funeral. I remember going through and he had screenshots, had screenshots of things that I had done and Emily had done. Um, but particularly I didn't realise that my dad was going deep into Instagram to look up trans rights and identity rights and everything like that.

And I was like, I know I was like, I was a little bit like, what? So it was a really kind of like really nice thing for me. Uh, because while he probably never fully understood it, um, he was always trying to, and I think that was really what was more important because, um, I feel like he was taking this big sort of like, I need to understand my child and I need to understand like what's going on.

You know, and, um, I think it was also particularly when I got my ears pierced and everything, um, that my dad was like, okay, cool. I need to like get ahead of this. Like I need to like, just do the research. It's real now. Yeah, it's real. I think it was like less staring, like oblivious, um, obviously often to space and be like, um, but I do remember like, you know, I came out when I was 26, um, as like, um, you know, transsexual and then I was, uh, 29 when I came out as living the dream.

But I came out as non-binary when I was 29. And I think it was like, because for me, um, and I remember like one of my great friends is trans. She was, she was like, yeah, you're part of the community. And for a long time, I thought it was like, oh, you know, like non-binary sort of sits on the outside a little bit. And it's like, no, it's actually just part of the trans community. And I never really knew that until like talking to her.

And she was like, no, it's like a whole, like people just don't talk about it. Which she was like, it's terrible because like, we just kind of alienate everyone, but it's the same of like, you know, anyone just being like, it's like people, you know, it's like, well, if you're going to be pansexual, you may as well say you're bisexual because it's easier. And it's like, well, that's what people literally think.

And it's like, well, no, no, I definitely identify as being pansexual, but that's like, you know, it's amazing how many people just go, oh, the label is easier because people just commonly understand it. But it's so interesting because I think we sort of like stepped in this great situation of like accepting it. I do think though in Australia, there's a lot of homophobia. There's a lot of like bigotry. Australia is not perfect. But I think I've been quite lucky in finding so many friends.

Like did you find that when you met your partner? Was, you know, like with your whole like sexuality, did you automatically know you were pan or was it very much like I find it? So I went to school in South Carolina for a really long time. Okay. In the Bible Bouts. Yeah, I was about to say, I was about to say that's fun.

I managed to skirt a lot of the more like really, really violent venomous rhetoric and stuff like that, that was directed at more of the like effeminate guys, that sort of thing that I knew some like bisexual emo kids in my middle school that were sort of that was part of the scene. And it was almost like it came with the it was couched in the culture in such a way that it felt a little bit more appropriate than if it was one of just the guys on the football team or something like that.

So there was still that word separation. And then I went to a high school that my graduating class was like probably like 25 people or something like that. It was very small. It was a dual enrollment high school. And I didn't know anybody who was out and queer. After the fact, I found out that like two of the guys that I originally gravitated to as friends were they they turned out to be very gay, very queer, very, you know, out.

But I think for a little while there, I was probably the only one that was saying, you know, I'm pan, I'm not straight. And that came from a completely hypothetical standpoint when I started hearing about the queer people out in the ether, where it's places that are not here. And I was dating a boy at the time his name was Graham. And I was asked at some point, like if Graham was a girl, would you still date Graham? And it was just like, duh, like, yeah, it's like features that I find appealing.

And then I saw Foxfire Confessions of a Girl Gang in which, oh my god, diabolically underrated movie Butch Angelina Jolie in the 90s, leading a vigilante girl gang. Yeah, I've never heard of it. It's insane that people haven't heard of this. And so I know that she's walking around in her like combat boots and she's got her pixie cut and she's it's all desperately queer coded. And I was like, oh, oh, oh. And so I just sort of I had to just swallow that pill really, really quickly.

And then I became for a little while there, I was sort of like, like token queer girl in that, you know, it would be the straight girls that would be like saying to their boyfriends, like, careful, or I'm gonna leave you for Sarah, that sort of thing. And it's sort of like, you get a little kick out of it. But it also made like actually being with somebody who wasn't just like a straight guy seem like this kind of absurd, like, yeah, maybe in another world, that sort of thing.

And so it was really funny, because when I met Cass, I had straight up no clue what was going on. And that's exactly what Cass wants out of life is Cass just sometimes people will look at him and they'll go, Okay, have a good day, ma'am, sir. Sorry. And then he'll just be like, yeah, because it's just that weird, like in the, the uncertainty and the destabilization of other people's expectations, I think that he really loves.

And so whenever I first met him, I was and now he just uses he they, and for a while there, I was just using they because I straight up had no clue what was happening. I just knew that he was gorgeous. And that he was the only person on campus who looked as miserable as I was whenever I first saw him. And like big, huge hoodie, like arm band bracelets, like up the up the forearms, like gladiator cuffs and everything.

And so we I think, both had concepts of queerness and of like gender nonconformity and things like that. And I think we were just such, we had had to focus on surviving high school and getting into college so hard that we didn't even have the wherewithal. And then when we met and hung out and started dating, it all just happened very like organically. And so I think probably a lot of my thoughts and a lot of my values on the topic have been filtered through CAS.

And then it's been sort of this loop of like, we don't have to go through the cultural perception of queerness because we got so close to each other so fast that it we were able to sort of like stabilize each other in that way. And so now, I think we have our own kind of iteration of stuff that's going on that helps us not fall into some of like the cultural waves that happen back and forth and like the queer community and the weird like semantic back and forth stuff about like, are you pan?

Are you bi? Are you straights at pride? You know, like that sort of thing. It's just I think being being so like enmeshed in each other and so in love with each other, we've gotten to like pocket away from that and just have like the queerness that we think is cool and that we think is personal to us and then just take everybody else's sort of a face value as it comes without that really rigid conformity. Yeah, which I love. I think it's like the shift away.

I mean, like it's very similar to how am and I sort of deal with things. I think particularly when we were in Australia for like the last month, so many people mispronounced me and I was like, I was like, just kind of got to the point.

I was like, okay, well, my brains kind of lied a little bit, but it was so funny because I think the moment we got back to Toronto, it felt like we were like, oh, okay, we can switch back to how we were like, you know, and I think it's because we're very like, we went to a wedding for a friend and and was saying to me, she's like, I'm so queer, like, you know, I'm married to someone who's queer.

I think that's, you know, the thing of just going to a very straight wedding is like, just just like I don't compute, like I love my friend, absolutely want to support her. But in terms of just like, people not, you know, understanding you is what drives me to the nth grade. And it's really, it's like so sweet because she's like my biggest advocate. So she's sort of like fights to the nth degree to make sure I'm seen. And I do think that that makes me feel really lucky.

And I think, you know, like the concept for people where it's like, they go, oh, but you know, like, you know, because I can pass for sis, which has gotten me out of like a lot of like problematic situations, which is sometimes great, depending where you go.

And I also like, I particularly think it has helped because a lot of the situations that I deal with, not so much in the arts, but when I deal with like people on Facebook, especially in work, I had to deal with a lot of backwards thinking people where it's like, they just knew black and white. They didn't know any better. Like I've sat down, I've worked with people who like thought that, you know, people's free will was dumb, you know, like, you know, like we should all, yeah, I know, I know.

But I also I've worked with people, you know, like, think, think that, you know, like US politics is fantastic. And, you know, the way it was heading during Trump's initial era was the best thing. You know, but I mean, and it's really interesting because I do think like, Australian little fun fact, Australians voting system is compulsory. You have to legally vote or you get fined. I didn't know that. Yeah, do it America. Make that legal.

Yeah, make it like a grand if you don't pay because amazingly people will do it. But also don't make it like make the elections easy. Like make it just like, God, you have a complicated system. It's so dumb. But you know, like, I think particularly being so prevalent to almost being like in Canada where, you know, it's so interesting, people will say this to me. And, you know, I think you have to live on this side of the world to really see the impact.

But I remember particularly, there was something I was saying to my mom was like, Oh, you know, I can't wait to see this sort of like Trump supporters in Canada come out of the woodwork and you know, like, you know, particularly in November. And I would be not surprised. Mom was like, Oh, no, but it's Canada. I'm like, no, they will. They'll they'll sneak their way out. They'll find a way.

And it's a lot of it's not to do with like, it's just to do with the fact that I think education, you know, like worldwide, like, you know, I'm blaming Western, I'm blaming colonization, a lot of this, you know, but worldwide has always been quite terrible. And I think we sort of cut off a lot of it.

And that is what drove me so insane about Australia is when you go to the like, the country, you go to the rural areas, where it's like just towns, like, you know, population 120 or something like that. And you talk to someone and you'd see the queer people there. And they would have their first Mardi Gras that year in 2022. And I'm like, that's your first one. And it's exciting. But you'd see how many people were like, you'd see all the bigots come out.

But then you'd also see other people who were very forage. And the populace was there were more people for it. They just didn't know that other people were for it. And that's the thing. Like, I feel like we're in this consensus, people get scared. Like, they get scared of which way, you know, like we're saying with voting, they just get scared of, you know, and I will always say to someone is like, why would you want to vote for someone that I necessarily wouldn't vote for?

I want to understand so that I can see, because we had a referendum, which I think was really interesting. So Indigenous and First Nations Australians were going to be given a vote in parliament. And it did not get passed. It didn't end up, it was meant to be this big thing where it's like, they would get a vote, they would know what would happen to the land that they originally owned. Australia did not pass it. The consensus was not enough people were for it.

And I remember saying to someone who worked with them said, this is the biggest step back for Australia, is massively stepped back. And he was like, oh, I voted no. Why did you vote no? Like, why did you vote against it? And he was like, oh, my family owned farmland. And I was like, okay, just because your family owns farmland does not mean the Indigenous nations, like Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island people are going to take it back. They're not going to rip your family full of land.

They just get a say to what happens to Australia and to the people of their tribes and their tribes. That's what makes it nuts. And this is such an out on Australia, but we are incredibly racist country. We are like so problematic in terms of that. But we get that we get all the worst parts because a lot of it was emigrated through British hate, which then emigrated to the US and to Australia. And we have not changed. We have not changed.

And you know, like, I think what Canada does amazingly well is they have a tax exempt for First Nation people, they make them pay a lower threshold. So you don't have to pay as much tax as like people who were white colonisation, like people. And I think that's very fair. Yeah, that's right. You know, that's that's a small, small little like gracious thing.

But you know, it's it's like little things that, you know, I wish we you know, because I remember when the Black Lives Matter thing happened in Australia, I saw so many people just be like, I'm going to buy some art, indigenous art, and that will be my contribution. And it was a running joke in Australia where all the white people would suddenly do it and they're bringing this home. You know, I've got this piece of work.

I mean, do you particularly like Maine as a state is a lot better than a lot of the Midwest and outer areas like versus other states. I mean, do you find that Maine's a particularly progressive state or is it still kind of like on its pockets? Well, so here's the difference is I was in Little Beach, South Carolina for many years. I was born originally up here in Maine. And you went you went there by choice. No, my dad. Yeah, my dad teaches US history up through the Civil War. And oh, wow.

Yeah. PhD. And he's like six feet tall with a mustache and people all think that he's Sam Elliott. So that's my dad. And and then my mom's like this teeny tiny cute little also wicked smart wicked cool. But they I think that he ended up down here specifically for the teaching job or down there. Oh, God. He ended up he he brought us down there. And good gig. He's still teaching. But we ended up in the south and it was there's a lot of things down there that I still have a great love for.

And one of them is the Bojangles chain, sausage, biscuits, dirty rice, etc. But more than that, it's the black community. And that's all we really don't have in Maine as much. There are pockets of Somali migrants who have have come to Maine specifically around here. Portland is pretty big for that. And then Lewiston, Auburn.

And they faced an incredible amount of backlash, despite being like having this really flourishing, beautiful community and bringing so much to us and bringing their their professions and their education and things like that. But I just the way that I was able to live alongside the like southern black community down like the coastal black community was for me, it was so much more nourishing to be around people and to see the actual like workings of humanity in that sense.

And I think there's more progressiveness up here and in New England in general. But in these very white states like Maine and Massachusetts and New Hampshire, it's sort of a theoretical progressiveness where it's like, you know, there'll be these people who are they're very active in terms of like securing minority rights and protecting people, you know, based on things that they can't control across the board. But they also don't know how to relate to people of color.

They don't know what they would do around a person of color. And so it's sort of like the way that perceived vulnerability and like victimization dehumanizes people by just a different turn as well.

So that's the that's the tricky thing is that like Maine hypothetically is a much better place for people of color in general to exist and to be represented and to not be mired in the absolute muck of like the leftover plantation economy, you know, the like very obviously still segregated areas of like South Carolina, North Carolina.

And like, but the tricky thing is that we would have to get so much smarter, so much quicker socially speaking, in order to really make that like a nurturing environment, because the it's it's just so much harder to truly advocate for people when you're coming from a position of such privilege that you don't even have to see their communities. You don't even have to see you know, one of the places that I was tutoring that I was volunteering at down south was an area called Race Path.

And I was working in an after school program there working with the kids. And it was literally a blighted community. So they like economically speaking, the way that the infrastructure of that town is laid out is different from the town over from it that's predominantly white.

And so it's stuff like that, that like, you people up here who haven't really met many black people, especially not many like black Americans who are here as a result of ancestral like slave trade, they don't really understand the ways in which community forms within and around those sorts of things. So up here, I think some of the like white savior complex, and it's everywhere, obviously, but that can sort of erase the really beautiful groundbreaking things that black people have done.

And I mean, so much of the southern culture, what we think of as as like country culture, the cool things that we want to preserve and the things that people relate to are from the black community. I mean, if you think about like food and music and art, and even like architectural things, the way that like people who are in these horrible situations for that long, you know, like they're gonna make good things within it.

And so it's not like, you know, take people and then move them somewhere else, move them somewhere better, because like, for better or worse, the south is black people now. And there's a there's a huge chunk that they're that like they are to thank for and where they're comfortable and where they have their communities and where they know how to sort of navigate their social reality in a way that we we can't really provide them in a place where we don't.

We don't already have that structure built for them. So the difference is a weird one. And that's been the biggest. That's been the biggest thing that I've missed, because there's definitely ways that we can advocate more for the Somali immigrants up here. But that's also a completely different. I mean, they're they're experiencing a lot of the overlap of vitriol at people of color and of people like women who are wearing hijabs and stuff like that.

But it's it's such a different it's so different. And especially being confined to pockets and being still be able to told, you know, go back, go back to wherever, go back to where you came from, that sort of thing. I don't know. I just hope that that community is able to take root a little bit more firmly and that they're able to really find their their footing here to the extent that they want to.

Because I think that that would be the best thing like for Maine in general, especially like the Lewiston-Auburn area, things like that, like from an evil side, just the commerce alone bringing the food, bringing the arts, bringing the I mean, there's there's groups that are specifically led by like Somali women that are community resource groups, community gardens and things like that, and a lot of the white people of Maine have gotten real

just just real lazy about like community shit, you know. And it's something that gets really it. It's so in the forefront of your mind when you're being constantly discriminated against and constantly othered that like it's like black communities, incredible, like the Latino community is incredible, white people have like no accountability to each other. It's so weird. It's so weird to see. I mean, I'm glad because I'd rather we not be able to organize just based by white people anyways.

But at the same time, it's like, it's a fucking free roll out here. I know. It's it is weird. Yeah. I'm like, I didn't realize it's so like, particularly also that it's so wide until I actually arrived. And then I was like, God, it is why it's so wide. And it's it's so funny to me because being in Toronto, there is like there's a massive like Indian and Middle Eastern and you know, just this real sort of like you got African American like, you know, people as well.

And so you really get the sense of community like everyone's like a migrant. Everyone's come from some like Toronto is a great melting pot of like, everyone you speak to has a different accent, and it's kind of the best point where it's like, we've all come here. We're all doing this migrant experience. And it makes you feel like part of community and it makes you feel like you can just chat to anyone be like, where are you from? Like, what's your background?

What's you know, and it's really cool. But coming here, I was like, I was like, oh, it's in the back of my head saying, God, I hate white people. Yeah, everywhere. Yeah. Yeah. We breed like wildfire. It's terrible. I mean, and there's this white privilege that obviously, you know, if we weren't white, you know, God, how far would we get? Totally different experience. But I do think there's something to be and I grew up with one of my friends was like, indigenous when I was in like, preschool.

And I remember, she and I were very close and to probably like, you know, middle school. And then we sort of went into our own social groups. But I remember particularly we were, it was like everyone, you know, I was like, you're my best friend. Like, you know, we're kids and you're my best friend. You know, but I do think that people were like, oh, you have that quintessential like best friend who's indigenous. And I was like, no, they're just my best friend.

Like, I did not even put that into accountability. And it's so interesting here, because I had that upbringing where I was like, I really didn't think much about stuff like this. It was like, we're all part of like, you know, just friends and getting to know each other and having different experiences is the best.

But I do get a real interest link when you know, like, and I think people need to do some research and like stolen generation and stuff like that, where it's like people have been taken to schools and forced in. There's great Australian play, which is about the stolen generation where white Australians would take kids from indigenous backgrounds and force them into Western culture schools. And it was terrible. Look it up.

And but I particularly I do find it like such a weird thing where it's like, you know, and I've had this conversation with one of my friends about like, you know, perceiving race and what is race and what is ethnicity and what is culture and and there's a great like there's a few documentaries on it as well, which is like, you know, some people say race doesn't really exist, cultural exists, but race is kind of like something that humanity

made up to kind of compensate for the fact that we needed something to divide us and rather than it being like, but cultural things are massive. Like that is like, you know, where you've grown up, what you've done, you know, everything like that, you know. And I think that is very prevalent. I don't I do think that yeah, race is like probably overused as a word.

But like, I think we've sort of just put a branding on it and just gone, well, that's like, you know, and I think culture is really what is the most defining factor of like, you know, what you've grown up with what your experiences are, because that really defines us. Like, as children, we're so susceptible to everything around us, our accents, the way we talk, the way we structure ourselves. And that to me says mountains more.

But then you also have kids who go, I want to know where I'm from, you know, if they've been adopted, or they've, you know, come from different communities. And that is also totally valid to find out where you're from.

And I think like legacy and ancestry is such an important part of knowing so much about yourself because the way the way we grow is DNA is, you know, like we learn through like, you know, DNA, you know, and so there's like part of you that is like, from both your parents, but also from your grandparents and part of like, you know, and that's how DNA strand works. And so you're an amalgamation of like so many different people. And I think that's really awesome.

So when you when you grow up with the community and you grow up with diversity, and I think, you know, I talked to a lot of people which, you know, they go, why did you travel from Australia, Australia so far, I'm like, oh, you should go to Australia. And they're like, oh, it's too far. Like, I don't want to go on a plane for 21 hours. I'm like, you should though. Yeah, like get out of your comfort zone, go somewhere else.

It's the best thing I went to, like, I've been to three countries where they don't speak English. And, you know, it was the best experience of my life to not go somewhere where you know the language. And I was like, this is just an eye opener, because it's forced me to get really uncomfortable very quickly. And I love that feeling of stepping outside of my box and going, I'm, I'm up to the elements, like, fuck, what do you do? And I get the privilege that I have, which is being a white person.

And you know, like, you know, being cis passing has also, you know, as I said before, gotten me out of some sticky situations. But I do think it is also like, you need to be open minded, you need to, you know, really see the world. Like it's, it's so frustrating when I hear people not understand the outside of their own little like segregated box and just go, oh, it's all normal. Yeah. I just want to amuse it. Oh, the nose blindness that comes from the division is wild.

And I think I noticed it the most keenly when I started learning more about social linguistics, which is like, there are so many people who, especially down south, and even, but I can't even say that just all across America who think that they are totally colorblind. They don't, you know, I love black people. I voted for Obama, but then they see something like African American vernacular English, which is, I mean, it has its own grammar structure. It has its own rules.

Like it is a, I mean, it's a dialect, but also like some people were regarded as a whole intact language on its own. And like, they'll see that and they'll say like, well, that's a mistake that's being made. Clearly someone's uneducated. They don't speak the way that I do.

And so, you know, or even just the way that we'll perceive non-native English speakers with broken English, which is a pejorative phase, but like they'll be seen as less intelligent because they can't form the same like syntactical structure as a native English speaker, but they'll be perceived that way by people who are monolinguists. Like I don't know another language.

If I hear somebody speaking a version of English that I can, I can understand, but I can recognize their accent in it or their original grammar structure in it. They know another language that I don't. And so it's that like cognitive dissonance that I think is really persistent.

And so one of the things that I always, I love to beat the shit out of people with in conversation is like, when people try to say, you know, I'll hear a black person say or write like, well, we always be doing this, you know, and they immediately take that as like, oh, nope, you didn't play the game right. I have to police you now because the ivory tower tells me that I know English better than you do.

But really that's the habitual B that appears in all kinds of languages and a lot of our structures. So like you never end a sentence with a preposition. Like the structure makes complete sense to us intuitively. Everybody knows what we're saying. It sounds the most natural to the ear and it works the most naturally in the mouth. But people like prescriptive grammarians will still try to say, no, you can't use that sentence like that.

It's not correct because it's not following a Latin structure. This is not a Latin language. It was never a Latin language. It was especially never a pure Latin language. I mean, we've got all kinds of, you know, like Germanic, the fucking the like French influence on terribly. There's so many things and I love it. I love English because it's a mud of a language. And it's just, it's, well, it's horrible because it's very hard to break into as a non-native English speaker.

It's like one of the hardest languages in the world. Exactly. But it's also kind of beautiful in this other way that like you can see all the claw marks all over it whenever you're studying it. But to have that absolutely absurd backwards-ass bastardized language and then to have the people who speak it from birth try to police it as though it's this immaculate, like, well, we figured it all out correctly. Like the word the is pronounced in multiple different ways.

The sentence, I never said she stole my money. You put different emphasis on each one of those words and it means something completely different. And it's like all this stuff, you know, it's, it's sort of a grab for comfort because especially people who don't have a ton of formal education in English, they say, well, I know which there versus there to use. And so I have something that I can kind of bolster myself with and I have something that I can wield over other people.

And so I always say that it's like, that's one of the quickest ways to tell whether somebody has really studied English or whether they've just been introduced to the heavily prescribed version of it that we use to make kids feel like shit.

Because it's, it's, it's whether you love the language and you, you study it and you see it for what it is and you're interested in the ways that it's changing and in the ways that it's inconsistent or whether you wield it like a weapon and you say, if this changes then I'm absolutely fucked. Cause I don't know what Riz means and I don't know what the skippity toilet is. No. And the thing, the thing that makes me laugh the most is in Australia, we shorten words.

We've got like, we're very, cause we, we had like Irish cockney, like that's a lot of our convicts. The convicts who came over were from Ireland, you know, and like Cornwall and stuff like that. They were English like, so a lot of it was bastardized even further. So they shortened words. And particularly when we came over, I was like throwing words out there, like, you know, I was like, oh, you know, the Savo, we're going to do something. It's like, AVO, Savo. So this afternoon.

So that was like our shortened version. This is another word we use, so I'll do that in a squiz. Squiz means in a tick and in a tick, you know, like quite soon. So you say, oh, or, or my other favorite is like, I'll take a squiz of that, which is I'll take a look at that. Oh my God. Yeah. So squiz is a very common word in Australia.

It's like a monaculum and I love it because you know, the, there are so many words that we use in Australian, like colloquialisms that, you know, and the fact that my father-in-law was Canadian born and is an immigrant. He loves the fact that like he now knows shortened like words because it's fun. Because when he gets to talk to his, you know, his sister, he can kind of like trick her out and, you know, give her words because she's lived in Canada her whole life.

So it's, there is a joy to being like, you know, knowing different ways of, you know, like languages have formed. And there is like also like so, so funny because like my mom, obviously someone who studied English, studied it to the nth degree. And then went, this is wrong. You can't pronounce it like this. I'm like, no, you should like just pronounce it any way you fucking want.

Like it's cause the whole point of like changing, you know, like Shakespeare made up words, Shakespeare specifically made up words to fill in gaps. And now we use them as like, you know, sentences all the time. And I really think that, and someone who like I have ADHD, so a lot of my word processing was like skew with all my life.

So I kind of loved that of being like, Oh, like pros will never quite, I'll say something or I'll say like, um, you know, a sentence and it might be a little bit jarring or it might be. But it makes sense to me because I understand this way of talking. So you know, I do love that that is a, this is a way of like distinguishing. And I've met so many people like around the world.

And you know, I think the fun is like learning how to talk to them through their own vernacular and never, and like teaching them your own, like, you know, finding the mid ground where you go, okay, I'll say it like this, but you say it like that. But like, how do we, how do we find it?

And I think, you know, it's the joy of, um, uh, particularly I'm a huge, if we're going back to a film and horror films that I love Robert Eggers, who's a fantastic, who did the witch and, um, is about to do Nosferatu, but, um, he uses old language. Like he does so much research into the language of the time. And it's amazing how many people come out and go, Oh, I didn't understand a word of that. And I'm like, the point is it's not, it was how they spoke.

And it was terribly like, you know, all over the place. And, but that's how people spoke. That's how it was written. And you understand it because, you know, like words, words like meek, um, and stuff were used so commonly then, um, just describe someone who's like almost pathetic or, you know, no strength. And I love when people use old words that are no longer around.

I mean, is that kind of like your joy as a writer to kind of like find, find little like snippets to be like, what am I going to talk to someone today? Well, I took my, uh, my mentor Hastings Hensel's his, his note on keeping a list of just cool words that you like. Um, and so I have just an entire rundown of different weird words. Like, I didn't know Zenith until recently, like, yeah. Zenith I've heard of them before. A planet is at like, it's, it's peak positioning.

That's not a great one, but that's a great word. Contraposto that yeah, I didn't know that that was this, you know, like positioning in portraiture and in statues and stuff like that. Um, so many, so many different things. I learned, um, Parthenogenesis. Oh yes. Yeah. For this novel, wicked cool. And I love, um, I love doing poetry. I just don't trust poetry.

And so I don't do it as much anymore, but, um, whenever I did that, like economy of language and findings that this really, really cool, um, Oh, my, my favorite lyricist, John Darnielle of mountain goats does a lot of that where he'll use a word that, um, he has a song called autoclave. I didn't know what an autoclave was, but this, the refrain is my heart's an autoclave. And so it's like, he'll use language that's like, well, yeah, you like the beat. You like the, the vocals.

Like if you want to really get another layer of this, you're going to have to look up what the hell I'm talking about, you know, uses biblical illusions that way too. Um, so yeah, I think that's, um, that's a big one for me in etymology.

I only recently found out, and I was thinking about this from what you said earlier, that, um, the uppercase and lowercase etymology of that and where that comes from, from the, like the printing press, what letters are kept on literally the upper case of the thing that's opening up versus the bottom one. Wild friend of mine who's in, he's doing law, he's a law clerk. He was explaining something to me and he just said, I don't know where, um, it's basically a boiler plate this.

And I was like, Oh, what? And so he's like boilerplate. It means just like kind of copy paste. Like it's, it's the standard format for something. And I was like, that is just bullshit of a word. Like where did that come from? Boilerplate. And so it's stuff like that, that I love seeing, cause that's the human element of language, right? It's like you, you could refine everything to be as quick and as concise or something as you want, but people are gonna mess with it regardless in between.

And I think that's one of the things that we really struggle with from generation to generation too, where you stop knowing the slang and the, um, the vocabulary stops being as intuitive to you. The immediate reaction is fear for a lot of people because then how do I know that I'm being understood and how do I know that I'm communicating like capital R right? And just like learn and listen. And a lot of it, I didn't know that Riz was from the word charisma. That's cool as hell. I love that.

I think it's also like for me, I've my entire life had to learn new words, like, you know, and that's also because of tech jargon. Like when someone, you know, like jargons are real, like new like thing all the time. It's like, why was this called thing? Why was this called that? Why was this called, um, so-and-so? And you realize that people are just like, it's legacy, you know, and even then it's like people go, what's legacy?

And you're like, well, the legacy of like, you know, words just sticking around because my favorite one is, um, you know, from film sets, which is sound speed. And the original reason that it was speed is because the tape actually had to get up to a certain speed and then it could able to record sound. But we never knew that until we went to uni.

And so for me, I was like, this is a really cool, like reason that has stuck around because you don't want to just go, I'm recording, like that just sounds really boring. So you kind of keep these cool little ways of saying stuff, um, along. And I do think there's certain terminology that never goes away. There's certain words that will never go away. Um, and then we'll change. Um, but like, I remember when lol started being used like daily by people.

Um, and you know, now like slays become a very big word, which I love. Um, but you know, like the next generation coming in are always finding new words. Like I've, I've, you know, sometimes surrounded myself with like, you know, when I, on the set or something, I'll be like around 19, 20 year olds and they're throwing out words. Like my, um, my 15 year old, um, uh, cousin's kid is like throwing out new words at me. I'm like, what the fuck? Like tell me everything I need to know.

I need to absorb. Like, it's just, it's just so fascinating. But I think it's like the real shift of the, um, the language and you know, how, you know, cause there is a theory, there is a, like, um, a lot of the languages that we know how useful they are. Uh, there's a statistics out there, which I looked up recently is there's, there's a lot of languages that are not really useful anymore.

Like they were really interesting back in the day because we were all sort of like everywhere, but now as times going on, they kind of like a dying. So Italian, the language of Italy is really useless now considering the math. Yeah. But it's still, it's only stuck around because of generational like stuff.

So a lot of the reason like languages stick around, um, but, um, Cantonese and Mandarin are some of the most popular languages that most people speak around the world and then English and like, those are the three like top. So they, there's a statistic reckoned that one day they will be, um, Mandarin and Cantonese and English will be the only languages that anyone ever speaks. And that's it.

Um, and isn't that fascinating that maybe in millions of years, like, you know, that we'll have old texts, um, like the Rosetta stone, like to me is fascinating because we had no way of understanding, um, Egyptian hieroglyphs and now we do. And that's like a stone that was found years after. Um, so that's how languages evolve. And one day we won't be able to read anything.

I mean, like you, you know, scientists do say that one day in 5 billion years, this planet will be ash and you know, nothing. Um, and we'll be off on another planet if we survive at that point, but it's, it's fascinating, isn't it? It's just like, we don't actually know. So there is, there is sort of like, I know going into the existential crisis moment of like, you know, do what's the point of everything. I think there was a lot of point.

I think it's just fascinating to see the evolution of something go and be like, how do we, you know, keep some things alive, but also evolve into new words. And I mean, like that's the joy of being, I guess, a writer. Um, you know, Ooh, now do you guys have a home dialect? Do you have things that is like just shorthand in your house from being partnered? Um, a few, a few, I can't remember off the top of my head. Cause we, Cass and I have descended into almost just like Muppet speak.

It is so dire. Yeah. It's, um, if a cat is doing something that's really cute, usually belly out, you know, like splay it on the floor. Uh, we started saying like, ew, like, oh my God, that's, you're so gross. Oh, you're so disgusting. And then that got short and disgusting. And then, so now if I'm like, radio is being disgusting on the cat. He knows that he can go over and she's probably splay it out. And there's, um, can, can I have my, can I have my wawa bottle? It's just like toddler speak.

Cause it's just shorter and shorter and shorter. Tricious. I love it. Brutal. It is so bad. It gets to the point back and forth. I mean, we could make noises just back and forth at each other forever, but between me shortening things, coming up with my own idioms and stuff like that. And then, Oh yeah. Like we've, um, we, we still like say when I love you, we say, mom, you, like we do things like that, or it's just like not even words.

It's just the noise of, um, and, or like, um, when we need something, like we have, we use the word need now, as in when we need to get out of a situation or we need each other's support, we just go need. And that's it. And it's like just a little words where it's like, you know, we've just taken a word and we just go, we want that. That's it. That's it. And we don't need to communicate that to anyone else. And there is a joy in that. Um, um, but yeah, it's like, you know, so bizarre.

And it's a microcosm of what happens to language on a wide scale, right? So like if you want to know what a word is going to sound like in 200 years, if you say it really fast over and over again, you'll hear where your palate is going to start to kind of skip steps. Because really the way that words change, um, unless it's for like a cultural reason or it's getting misconstrued as something, it's just our mouths being lazy. And especially the American palate is very, very, very lazy.

Um, I mean, you can even hear it in a more like country and rural dialects where people are used to having chewing tobacco in front of their teeth and you can hear them talking around it. Um, the new England accents in general are so much more like English and British still we non-rhotic. We lose our Rs at the end of our sentences and the end of our words. And so it's our words.

Yeah. I've gotten to the point where I can say like, well, I have to go out to the car and get something and that's slightly different than what I would say in South Carolina, which is I have to go to the car. Yeah. And it's, you know, it's just sitting in a totally different place in your mouth and you can straight up just if you're with somebody for long enough or in like the tech community, I'm sure has like a totally different, I know laws like that.

Like there's, there's words that are the same that are pronounced the same, means something different. There are words that are emphatically used differently. It's just, it's so cool. And it's one of the things that like, well, they say that it's linguistics is the only science that everybody thinks they're an expert on because when you're using a language, it feels very intimate to you. And it feels like when it's not being used the same way, it's being used wrong.

But in reality, it's like watching like a tide pool where if you see something that's not, you're like, oh shit, that's weird. You're not going to pull it out and go like, okay, get out of here. Like you're going to look at it and be like, this is interesting. This is fascinating. This fish I haven't seen before in this reef. Oh my God, get it away from me. Like, no, you're going to be like, this is weird. What does this mean? What are the ramifications?

And I just wish, I wish more people dealt with language that way, especially because so many people have like home languages that they've constructed with their, their siblings or their partners or something like that, just from, from shortening words from like inside jokes. I, at one point I heard a woman yell at her Rottweiler and because it was chasing ducks on the beach and she said, you're not going to get them, Linda. So now every Rottweiler that I see is Linda to me specifically.

So if I say, oh my God, it's a Linda, you know that that's what you're going to be seeing. And so it's stuff like that, that it's just, it's not even necessarily quicker. I guess maybe it's one syllable shorter, but it's just for being a personal thing, you know? And I drink a lot of seltzer water, but I just say, seltzy. Oh my God. It's just my seltzy. That's all. Which is going to be probably the most controversial thing that I've said on here.

Cause people either really like seltzer water or they absolutely hate seltzer water. Wow. You've just really, I really divided, completely divided the audience. Cause some people they're expecting sugar in it, but it's not. It's just, it's just water with a little kiss. It's a little water that kisses you. Yeah. So delicate. Exactly. That's what I'm saying. Like, but no, I'll fight to the death about it. Yeah. Seltzy. Um, our cats are ham sandwich and radio. Hammy is just Hammy. Yeah. Radio.

We'll just call it radio. Ham radio. Radio. Yeah. I didn't even mean to do that originally. We actually, we got radio first and then Hammy came in. It's a ham radio. Yeah. That to me is the best. Exactly. Um, I'm afraid we're running out of time. I know I could talk to you forever. We're going to go get lunch though. Yeah, I know. I mean like, look, and we're going to go and do photos and it's going to be great. But can I just say I've loved chatting to you. This is so much fun.

I'm going to annoy you. You came all the way out here. I know. Well, I'm going to come out again at some point and then I'll annoy you again. Please. Because yeah, then we'll go and do a big adventure. When you're not going into surgery, trying to aim it away from a surgery. Um, but no, Sarah, where can people find you on the internet? Where can they stalk you? So right now, before I implode it from the ground up, before I hit the demolition Instagram of coin swallow there.

And if you want to stare at Echo versus slate where darker further down is listed and you can see my little icon for it. And you could see my little description that is on, I believe just echo verse.com. You're the production company that I'm working with. Um, and other than that, you'll have to chase me down yourself. You'll have to find me. You'll have to sniff me out. God, that sounds horrible. It makes you sound like really ominous of just like, fine. I'm fast too.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're like, you're like that crab walk, like, you know, just like, you'll see me and then I'm gone. I'm just getting Toy Story in the back of my head where it's like that scene where all the like disformed toys come out and like, I'm like, Oh, you're like the one with the baby head doll and the spider legs. I have way more appendages than it looks like. Yeah. You hide it well. It's the big sweater. Yeah, I know.

You're like, I mean, they can see it because it's like being filmed, but also I love the idea because if no one sees this film version, they'll just imagine you as a giant spider creature. Which is great. It's appropriate. Feminine horror. We got it. We looped back. It worked. So good. Um, I've loved chatting you. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you. And if you want to go and check out more episodes of Things We Do, you can check them out on Apple and Spotify.

I'll be speaking with another guest next week and I'll speak to you later. Goodbye! BOO!