The Things We Do... - Interview with Meg Clarke

But I feel like openly wise, I should always ask you about like how phallic this microphone should look. It's like extremely, it's decent. I don't know what. Yeah. Is this as... If this was coming at me, I'd be like... Is this too big a phallic shape? Is this too big for your mouth? I'm not gonna answer that question. This is the Things We Do podcast, a podcast about film life, television culture, mental health and all of that fun jazzy stuff.

Today I've got my special guest and friend Meg Clark. Hello. Hi. I love how also... But before we start, I feel like we've known... We've known of each other for years, since like 2018. But it's like, which feels like eons ago. I know, but I can't... Why? Why do I know you? I don't know. How? How do I know you? Leighton, Leighton, our mutual friend Leighton. I love that you... Oh, that's right. You were the jam thing. I was the jam thing. You were the jam.

Oh my God, I actually fully forgot about that. You were like, how do we know? What contact do I have? How? Now I have answered all your questions. That's right, of course. Yeah, because you and I had a full on debrief about the jam. We did. And at the cafe, I was like so not in the best place at that time. No, you were going through shit. Yeah, it was an intense moment. Yeah, it was very, it was very hot on your sleeve kind of conversation.

Because it was like, I'm meeting you in this kind of like casual professional environment and Meg's just sitting there going, well, this is me. This is my crappy... I think I didn't know what else to say. I was like, yeah, I'm going through a breakup. Anyway, cool, cool script, dude. Yeah. That's right, because you got to have a long-term relationship at the time. Yes, I did. Yeah. But that's all good now. Yeah, no, it's years later. You're in a happier one now.

So it's not like you're living that sort of dark depressing dream again. It was a strange time, but also I was so young. It's so cooked, don't you think, with COVID? Because I was like 24 when COVID happened. Now I'm 27. Yeah. Like I actually don't know what happened in that space of time. Like it feels like this like suction pool and I still feel like I'm 24. But then I look back on that time when I had that conversation with you and I'm like, oh no girl, you actually have grown up so much.

Yeah. Like I was a baby then. Even though I feel like the same person, I was actually a baby. Do you feel like COVID forced you to grow up faster? Um, maybe? Yeah. I don't know. That's a hard question. I guess like it was pretty, I mean, fuck in hell. We don't really want to talk about, oh sorry. Yeah, yeah, you can swear. So go wild. I mean COVID schmoving. Like blah, blah, blah.

But I mean, I feel like I totally agree with you because now years later, if COVID didn't happen, I reckon like a lot of things wouldn't have happened. Like I reckon there's a lot of immaturity that I think comes with particularly not understanding the gravitas of your own life and what that kind of implements and how you can impact everyone around you. And I think COVID really kind of also did this great thing, which is collectively get rid of the people.

Some of the people that obviously are shitbags. Oh my God. I fully thought you were saying COVID did this great thing because it killed people. No, I was not. I just got rid of some friends. Like, you know, it's just a great, a great thing. You kind of learn about people very quickly when a pandemic happens. And I'm not talking vaccines or anything.

I'm talking like literally just care factor of people being like, I mean, you learn a lot about vaccines, but your face was like, your face like... A couple of people I don't talk to anymore. That's for sure. Yeah. But I mean, like, I feel like the biggest thing I think was even before the vaccines, just everyone went into their own space. And then you sort of really saw the people kept kind of bothering to make sure everyone was okay.

And then the people just went, nah, don't give a shit about anyone. And then, you know, I feel like it's a mixture of people because I feel like, you know, everyone's going through their own pace, but I definitely think that some people came out of COVID better. And then some people actually came out more selfish than when they went in. Yeah, yeah. That's, yeah, that's interesting.

I feel like actually something that I learned through COVID, which maybe sounds a little bit like rude, is that everybody was posting all the time online being like, don't worry. Like you can take time off. This is your time. Like, you know. And I totally get that. Like it was such a fuck up. Like, whoa, mental health was low. But weirdly for me, I would see those posts and be like, don't worry. You can use this time to like relax and you don't have to be creative or work.

But for me, I think I grew up because I was like, no, like no one's coming to fucking save you. Yeah. Do your work, make something happen. Because otherwise, like, you're just going to be sitting here doing nothing. And that is like, as an actor, you always are waiting for someone to give you a job. And it kind of made me realize like, oh my God, this is what I've been doing my whole life. And now I've actually got the clarity to see like, no one's coming to save you, dude.

No one's going to make it happen for you. You actually have to make it happen for yourself. So when I would read the things being like, don't worry, take time off. I was like, no, no, do the opposite of that. Work your butt off. Yeah. This is your chance. While everybody else is sleeping. You make a master means. Well, well, you, Jesus Christ is like, while you I've drugged everyone in the house, don't worry. I've made the masterpiece with their bodies. Like, that's what I did. I can tell.

No, I agree with that entirely. I think, I think it's like, you know, I, I just think that the busier I was, especially because it gave me time to do all the things that I wanted to do. Like I didn't have time before COVID cause I was kind of dealing with, you know, like work and life and actual things that going on. Then I had COVID and I was like, oh man, there's so many things I can actually do and make a life and create the things that I love. And you know, set a lot of projects in motion.

Yeah. Well, totally. You've just done a 12 hour day of work people. That is crazy. And then I come and chat with you. I know. Honestly, I don't know how you're doing it. I would be like F off dude. Yeah. Lots of sleep. It's like, and also coffee, coffee is my friend. Um, it's, it's like, I'm a slave to it, but I'm also a workaholic. Like would you describe yourself as a workaholic? Are you very good at like laying off? Um, I think it's hard. It's hard to tell because I'm a workaholic.

Like if I'm doing work that I like, but because obviously being in the arts means you have to do a lot of casual work. I would say that makes me become very lazy because I don't really like feel passionate about that casual work. No offense guys. Yeah. How dare you not feel casual, like casually interested in the, yeah, it makes you a bit like I can get a bit lazy. Yeah. But if I'm not working on something creative, I get like, yeah, I feel very depressed.

So I'd say I was a workaholic in that way. Yeah. Cause you know, like predominantly you started enacting, which is, you know, and then you went into a bit of dabbling and directing and writing and creating. Um, was that COVID related? Yeah, it was actually. Um, my partner and I were just like, what kind of what I was saying before, uh, about not waiting around. We were like, well, shit man, like this COVID things happened. You don't know how long it's going to go for.

Don't know what's going to happen to the industry. Um, let's just make our own films. And so that's pretty much the reason that all occurred. And then I read his writing and I was like, oh, this is really good. I think we can do something with this. So yeah. And then it's just kind of like gone on since then I'm still editing my film that I directed, which is challenging, but awesome.

Is this the one I think, I think I've heard a bit about, which I think was written last year and then got filmed this year. Was it that one? Yes. It's called pearly gates. Sounds ominous. Yeah, it's cool. It's about like being a young gal, but also dealing with, uh, like domestic violence. So, you know, it's an interesting, but it's also kind of got like some fun elements in it. Yeah. It's like quite a youthful sort of like, if it was a color, it would be the color like pink, I guess.

Ooh, very, um, strange way to describe a film. Yeah, no, very pink, especially with domestic violence and abuse. Yeah, I mean totally hand in hand. Not the color palette I thought. Um, yes. Well, you know, keep the people on their toes. Um, anyway, what we can say. No, no, I was gonna say. I mean, that's extraordinary though. Like you know, the, the fact that that is, but you have done now two films.

Well, yes, we have fully completed one and it's like doing the festival circuit as in entry circuit right now. Um, and my one that I directed is, yeah, it's about to go into like sound color and composition. Do you feel like, like nervous about that for this one? Um, I felt really nervous when we were doing the edit. I was like really stressed out. I was like, okay, well the fuck it's not what I thought it was going to be. This is crazy. Like what I, I didn't direct this film.

Like this isn't what I wanted, but I just realized that when you direct a scene and then you put it next to another scene, you go, oh my God, I didn't, I guess I didn't really think about it all together or I did, but it just didn't end up exactly the way that I thought it would, which was actually a great opportunity because we essentially like rejigged the whole thing and like kind of made this cool out of like, uh, the, in

terms of timeline, we like messed with the timeline and have done a nonlinear structure. That's the word. And I think it's like upped it massively. So it's like, you make the film many times, you know, you film it and then you edit it and it's like a whole different thing. And then I think sound design will bring like a whole nother thing to it. So I'm feeling really excited now. Yeah. Watching a film without sound design on music is very tough. Oh, it's tough. It's tough.

Um, I think the first time I ever watched a film that like, I, you know, and even like, I think I directed it the first time and I was like, God, this is shit. You just have this horrible feeling that nothing's worked or like the first time you see any of the shots, like in an editing sequence put together, you're like, none of this works. Everything looks terrible. Um, but they do say that if you don't think the first edit of your film is dog shit, then you're a terrible director.

So we must be so talented. I feel like you can have a good first edit of a film night. Like, you know, it's interesting as well because the longest I've ever spent editing a film and not, I didn't even direct this. It was like a year I had spent, it was 20 minutes. It's online. Um, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, It's called overrated.

It was directed by Joe W. Bridges. And I mean, like the process was just like a nightmare because he had moved back to Brazil and I was shooting high res material between Australia and Brazil and time difference. And then I got horrendously sick. So I got like the biggest flu. This was like 2015 got a big flu and it's now up online.

But I think the problem was it's one of those films that you don't initially probably only a few drafts and I don't blame him because it's like, I, you know, like he wrote it, but I don't blame him entirely. I think, I think the concept is great. I just don't think the execution was good because there was a lot of things that I, I remember after he left, um, cause he's originally from Brazil.

He had to go back cause his, um, uh, like his uni visa had run out, so he couldn't actually do anything anymore. And um, yeah, he basically just went, Oh, um, yeah, hello. I love it. And I, I remember it was the first time I ever learned where a director kind of didn't know there were gaps in their own film.

And I was like, there's a lot of like, you've got to always look at the gaps of where information's missing and it's why I don't think that I like, um, like no matter how many drafts and how many, you know, like I think rehearsals are a key thing. I think like planning stuff out is a key thing because on the day even like you learn so much, like nothing from the time you conceive the script to the time you get to the editing is going to flow.

And then I think sometimes when you rely heavily on films that, you know, they need a narrative structure. And I feel like this was a first film. You could clearly tell it was a very well shot film, but it was just, it lacked that kind of end goal of what the character wanted and what they needed. And I think to take a year to edit it was not that necessary.

It was just a lot of backing of the, there the story was, it was just a lot of back and forth and it was so much work to edit this film that, you know, editing is one of those things. And I think it also was the first time I'd ever learned that a director doesn't know entirely what they're looking for when they're editing a film until it's done. Like they really don't know.

And this is no criticism to any director, but if you a hundred percent tell me you a hundred percent know what you're after in the edit, I don't believe you like at all. Because I've never met a director unless they've gone, Oh, I've edited it myself and that's what I want. And then in which case you're just copying and pasting. Like that's a different story. But most times they, editor and the director kind of have an idea and then they hope that idea kind of rolls into what they want.

And you're kind of stitching together a puzzle and a baby that might be a bit of a Frankenstein's monster halfway between. And then hopefully like the Mona Lisa at the end, really hope the ultimate, the ultimate.

Yeah. Like, you know, you're really hoping that it will be the pinnacle of what you want, but it is hard, I think for directors, especially like, um, you know, just learning about the craft and I don't think yet, like, have you ever worked on anything and as an, especially as a performer and being like, read the script, the director knew 100% and then you saw it on screen and you like, that was what I felt like the director wanted, but it wasn't.

Um, no. Like everything I did was exactly what I wanted. No, no. I mean, like, I mean, I mean, um, no, I mean, no, I've never seen it go exactly how I imagined it would go of what they communicated. But I think that's because, I mean, for me as a director, I was a bit of a control freak, um, as I am want to be. And I had such a clear plan of what I wanted in the edit. I had like told the editor, like I had like highlighted the sections and been like this bit to this.

I've chosen everything and was like, I essentially just need you to assembly line this exactly how I tell you. As I said, control freak. And it was rubbish. So then it was like, Oh, Oh, fuck. Okay. Right. And I think like, what then happens is, is you realize how many options there are, like how many you can go so many ways you can actually, there's endless options. So then you get a bit overwhelmed and then you like, hopefully land on the right one.

Yeah. So I feel like the work that I've seen myself in that's obvious that I think that's probably been their journey. Not dissimilar to mine, I did a film, a feature film, which is still not out yet, but anyway, apparently it's getting there. My favorite term is when features is the one I think I've seen clips of. Yes. Yeah. God, really? Okay. Nevermind. We're moving swiftly on. But, uh, yeah, I'm doing ADR for it soon actually.

Um, that film was so clearly like communicated to me and I had a great relationship with the director and it was like going, I thought that it would be like a really good result, but then I found out that he ended up totally messing with it in the edit and completely changing the whole thing and the whole structure. So yeah, I don't know.

Just sometimes when you, you need to like honor the footage you get and you never really know what that is until you see it properly side by side, because on the day you're watching going, wow, this is amazing. And then you see it later and you're kind of like, Oh, okay. Um, well, you know? Yeah. I feel like, um, I feel like that didn't really make any sense. No, it does. It does. I mean, it does. It totally does.

I think it's also whenever I've directed anything and it's the same with like when I did rehearsals and stuff, I really rely a lot heavily on the performance, um, as well. Like, you know, obviously, you know, your shots and everything and you kind of go, okay, well, these are what I want, but you've got a DLP there. You've got like, I know performance is so important.

It's like, you've got performance and I think if you under estimate like your, you know, your actors or you direct it, and I feel like you could overstep as a director. You can be like, I need you to do like, you know, like I want you to feel like this in a scene, but I'm not gonna like, I'm going to watch you through it and then tweak it. But I think it was like, you know, some people are just like, nah, that was terrible. Do it again.

Like there's, there's I think a way approaching performing and creating a scene and looking at how it's written and then how it translates. And if it doesn't translate the way work out where the miscommunication is going in, because you know, you hire actors or you, you know, have people in your film who want to be actors and, and want to perform for a particular reason.

And that, you know, might be any particular reason, but you kind of do have to trust their instincts as well as your own instinct and know when something's not right and when, and how to communicate that that's not right.

Because you know, I've been to some sets where people don't know and don't say anything or they were, you know, like I've been on sets where suddenly they've thought it's a comedy, but the way the actors performed it, you actually realize it's quite a nuance lower end comedy and told in a very drama way, but it's still a comedy, but it's not told through the comedy style that the director was initially thinking.

And I've been on those kinds of sets where you look at the edit lighting, you're like, this isn't the tonal shift that you need to swap the tone of what you're going to do here. Like I've seen that and I don't know if that's like, um, you know, through just like trial and error, because I remember like when, when we were doing, um, when we ended up before COVID and everything shut down, I remember it specifically being on Zooms and even being in physical with the like Leighton and Aaron.

And I think we ended up having so many conversations about character and just rehearsals and how and, and they shifted over time. Like every time we'd talk about it, something new would come up. So it's like, you do feel like you're, if you're not working with your actors, then you're working against your actors. Like how do you communicate all your kind of like mess?

I'm going to say it's mess when you're a director, it is mess, but how do you communicate all your thoughts and ideas to your actors and make sure that at least they're getting what you are trying to aim? Um, well, I think like, to be honest with you, casting is so, it's just like it, right? Like, you know, you know, the person when you meet them being on the other side of the camera has made me feel so much better about jobs that I haven't gotten because I've realized like how unpersonal it is.

Like some of the girls that auditioned for the short film that I did were so incredible. Like they were some of, they were so, such good actors, but they just like weren't the character. And so I would say firstly, like that's, that's like a mistake that a lot of people make, I feel. Like, casting is so key. And then I guess like mostly, I mean, it was my first time, so I definitely like made some mistakes and probably could have communicated things more effectively.

I was also in producer brain because that's what I'm used to being in. So most of my brain was about getting through the day quick enough that we could get everything in the day. Yeah. So there's like two takes of every scene or every shot I should say. So like in next time, like I would not do that. I would make someone else worry about that, even though there was a wonderful first AD there who kept telling me to just focus on my job. But I was like, no, hurry, hurry up. What time is it?

Anyway, so yes, taking time. And I guess mostly like making actors feel like super comfortable and super connected to each other. And then like, they really should do the work for you. And then it's just like, I don't know. It's really hard when you're an actor to articulate it. Because I feel like for me, it was just like, yeah, that was awesome what you brought. Like, what about this?

Like, let's just fucking like try things and have fun because like that's how you feel when you're doing a good job of acting. And like, I was just there being like the cheerleader. I mean, like I'm not, I wouldn't say I was like a great example of a director. You know, like, I don't, I don't know. I feel like a lot of directors who I work with, they're like live, breathe.

They're like, they know everything about film and like, they use these fancy words and like really like, you know, they're obsessed with being a director. Like I wouldn't say that was exactly me. Yeah. I mean, I loved it and I would love to do it again. But yeah, I don't know. It's, I feel like that's hard to articulate, which is probably how my poor actors felt when they were working with me.

I think one of the most stressful things also as you know, a director is when, and you must get this when as an actor is when an actor goes, I thought my acting was okay. And you're like, did I not communicate well enough to give you the performance that you thought you were worthy? Like that's happened where like, you know, cause I feel like as performers, you know, and especially as being a previous performer, like it's self-deprecating.

You don't think you're up here when you do a scene, you kind of like, Oh, you know, I've never met an actor who's a hundred percent proud of a scene they've done. They've gone, Oh, it was okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you show it to someone who has no connection to them and is only an outsider in an audience going, Oh, they were great.

Like it's so different to how like, you know, some actors see themselves and they're like, I was okay, you know, and like I was fine, but they love that they're in something. Do you get like, do you feel like that as yourself as a performer as well, that you're very harsh and critical of yourself? Uh, I feel like I, you like, I was very insecure at acting school. I feel like now not as much like, I think I would feel more, I always just feel like there's always more that you can do.

Like there is again, a limitless amount of options to perform a role or do a scene or whatever, and you can always do a better job, you know, like, so I would say like, I'm always keen to make sure that it's, you know, fully, uh, finished, but no, I wouldn't say that I got like particularly insecure. I'm just like, want to do the job, you know, I just want to know, right. And like when it feels good, it feels good.

If it doesn't feel good, like I want to do it again until it feels good, you know? And then like, if the director says to me like, that was great, we definitely got that. I'm like, okay, great. Let's move on. You know, like it's like a job. I know. I don't know. I think, I think that's the smartest way to think about it because, you know, but I do feel like I feel like some people are so hung up about it and then just kind of get it whittled into their brains about it.

Yeah. And I don't know if that's just, you know, your, our own perspective of it, just going, yeah, that was good enough. Um, I mean, like, have you ever gone on set as an actor or as a director and something terribly, you know, or something's gone wrong or timing has been delayed or, you know, and you've just gone. Only, only, only that. Every time. Always. It's always a shit shot. It's surprised anything's made, isn't it?

Yeah. Even I actually did a film recently, which was pretty exciting, but I thought that it would be like, not like that. And it was like, you know, it was obviously way more professional than like an indie film, but still, you know, it was definitely things go wrong all the time, which is, I think what's so great about making art, like it never goes to plan and you just have to go with it. And that's actually what's fun about producing, even though most people hate producing, I love it.

But it's so fun because everything goes wrong and you just like constantly trying to figure out how to fix everything all the time. I, I recently, I really, I recently just managed to, um, the film in Bombo Quarry, which is in Cayama and the, the funnest time was, uh, the lady, uh, the Cayama council were just like, oh, we'll have to email the, um, uh, the Sydney water people because they own part of the land.

And I just went and typed into Google Sydney water people emailed them directly, got answers quicker than the council would have gotten back to me. And I just sped up my, um, my time, like three weeks. And it was, and it was incredible because, you know, like, that's the thing of resources that, you know, as a producer, you would think of, like most people are like, oh no, that's fine. I'll just, I'll leave the, you know, the button pushes to kind of do their work.

And I'm like, no, no, no, I bypass everyone to get my job done so I can, there's so much red tape as well. Like there's just so much bullshit that you have to do. And it's like, no one cares, man. We're just going to film some scenes in a park and like these kids can play in the background and like, we're not going to hurt anybody. It's all good. And it's, and it's, and council's like, you know, particularly bad. They're sitting councils are just like a nightmare.

Um, and they're just like, and it doesn't happen often. Like you can, you know, the thing is you could film in your back lane or you could film in your local park and no one would give a shit. Like it's just common. They're like, just as long as you don't film me, I don't care. But then there's always that one Karen out there just going, have you spoken to the council? That's so true. And then they get on the blower to the, they're like, there's some children in the park.

I mean, I'm still a kid. Look, you know, you may be in your twenties, I'm in my thirties. Like, let's say we're still children. We're babies. We have so much to learn. I know. But, um, I think, I think that's my biggest gripe as being a producer is the red tape. Like it's always a constant battle. Um, yeah. And some producers really, really like they will not budge on the rules, you know?

Yeah. And I think like what's interesting about me and my partner, Josh, who like, what's interesting about us, fuck, what a self-revolting thing to say. What's so good about us? So amazing, like different and unique about us is, um, no, but because we've got no experience, cause we both only been actors, we kind of just blew in and we're like, yeah, yeah. I mean, our first film, for example, right. It's set in the desert. It's got like six horses in it.

It's got like 300 sheep, um, dogs, a kid, all the cooked stuff that you're not supposed to use, especially in your first film. Yeah. But we were like, this will be easy, man. And then we just like got all these people out there and it was it. It was crazy. Like it was hot. People were like almost going to faint. It was just fucked. But we got it done because I think we had no idea, you know? And we were like, ah, screw the rules. Yeah. So I think there's like pros and cons to both, you know?

You did one film, it came out good and you were just like, oh shit, that was well. Wow. We are geniuses. I mean, like that's a learning, that's a fast way to learn is like to trial by fire. Yes. Yes. It was literally fire. Yeah. Cause I feel like heat wave in particular and the safety, like animal control, children control, people control, like heat, you know, you're really fighting the elements. We were going, going for it.

And also like animals don't do what you tell them to do because they don't like know English. They don't know themselves. They just inhabit the planet with us. They're just doing their thing, which was weird. Cause we'd be like, okay, go over there now. And the horse would be like, nah. Yeah. It would just stand there just waiting. Yeah. But it was actually amazing. Horses are so smart. They are so crazy smart that eventually the horse would actually like start doing the performance.

Like it realized that it was doing the same routine over and over again. Like it was going to this edge of water and like playing in the water and it actually started performing. Wow. Which was fucking incredible to watch. Horses are so cool. I'm a horse girl now. I mean, like it is interesting because they're one of the, I think, other than dogs, particularly are one of the most easy animals to train and same with every birds, like owls and stuff. Are they?

Yeah. Birds aren't too difficult to train as long as they've got like a deer where they're part. They do that thing where they like make them come to the arm with the little glove on it. Yeah. So they have to have a path. Like it's like tunnel vision. You're basically training them to go from dot to dot and then. Are you a bird guy? Like, how do you know about this? It's a lot of Harry Potter documentaries. There's a lot of birds in that. That is the nerdiest response. And I love it.

And I also love Harry Potter. Look, I think that's the only way you can learn stuff is by watching behind the scenes stuff. But yeah, it's, I think I've worked with children before. I've worked with children twice now. Um, and that was both times really fun, but also hell. Like, I was, I once, I, I remember at the time it, I've got my working with children's check, which is five year warranty. He has to say that to make sure if anyone's listening. He's worked with children and do not worry.

Do not worry. I have not, I'm not illegal. Um, and, uh, yeah, it was so funny because we had to ask, do, due to the charity that we were working with, they specifically asked everyone to get a police check, like the safety check. And, um, my wonderful, uh, gaffer at the time emailed us, um, and we didn't know him that well at the time. He's lovely. And, um, Alan Frazier, he's did an amazing job, but I remember he asked it.

He was like, Oh, is the, um, are you guys going to pay for the, like, obviously the work health safety check? And we were like, no, we can't because it covers you for five years. So that would be a waste of our money. But by, by the request of the charity, you have to get it. And he was surprised. And it was the first time I ever heard of someone surprised that they couldn't get, like they had to, because it was like, I don't work with the children.

And I was like, yeah, unfortunately we have to. And I did some research. I think there is a, you know, I don't think he's wrong. I think there was a little bit of legal tight where you, you know, depending on what role you have, but it is, Yeah, there is. If you're not like directly working with the child, you don't have to, Which is nuts to me because then it does seem a little crazy. It's like, if you're on, I mean, I would think it's common sense to just get one.

Well, yeah, I mean, why wouldn't you like what's stopping you? You know, like if you're not getting one, like what did you do? It's like, I think it's like, um, a hundred bucks for five years or something. Literally it's free if you're volunteering. Yeah. So if you're not getting paid, it's free. Yeah. So it's like, you know, and it has a nice little V next to it.

If it's, if a volunteer, and then if you paid, I think it has another letter and it's just, you know, it does, it has a clear indication. It has a clear indication. Yeah, it does. It makes sure you know you're not getting paid. Make sure you know that you suck. Go work at your casual job. No, no one actually sucks if you're not being paid. That's not, you're doing hard work. Am I getting paid for this? No, sorry, suck shit. That was a joke.

But no, I think, I didn't realise that at the time and it is kind of nuts now because, you know, I just see all these sort of like, and I think it's come out of the Me Too movement and then the child safety, you know, like, especially with American, you know, American child safety laws, everything of like school shootings and stuff, you know, which is nuts over there.

But I think, I feel like in Australia, there should be a common legality in the film industry just to work on any film with children, you have to have this by like, and it's cheap. It's really cheap. So I think, you know, but it's one of those things that I think going forward, it's something that I just will try and implement if I ever run a set is just like, and it has children, it's just like, sorry, everyone, please get one because by requirements, I just don't feel safe.

I mean, like, I understand if, you know, you have one day here and there, but I'm like, if you're with us for the whole shoot, then please get one because it's like, completely separate. Well, we ended up just doing that. Because I mean, yeah, everybody was volunteering. Thank you everyone. So it was free and like may as well. Yeah. Just became part of the paperwork. Yeah. Because it's like, what's the, what's the weirdest thing you've had to kind of like request of people?

Uh, I think you're on the spot there. That's a really, I don't, I guess like going, going into the water with a horse and a camera and like trying to get footage of a child and a horse splashing and frolicking in the water together. Like that was, everyone was fucking keen to be there, but that was like absurd to be a part of. Like it was like, what are we doing? Luckily it was so hot. So like, it was like, yay, thank God.

But I felt so bad for the camera, uh, DOP Luca, who was just like waiting with these pants on, like in water, like getting all wet and holding this camera. But anyway, he's fucking amazing cinematographer. So yeah, he did a beautiful job. Um, yeah, I don't know. Otherwise, gosh. I don't, yeah, I feel like I've been asked to do more weird things than asking people to do. Really? What's the weirdest things you've been asked to do?

I mean, one thing, like I was asked to like stand on a cliff and pretend that I'd fallen off a cliff, but I was like actually on the cliff and it had like a small, it had like a small ledge and it was like, okay, now like just like climb on this cliff. And I was like, right. Like if I fall off, I'll die. Like I would have died. Yeah. And then they're like, now just quickly take your hands away and just like pretend you've fallen but don't actually fall. And I was like, yeah, cause I'll die.

That was pretty hecky. And in hindsight, I wouldn't do that again. I was young and I was eager. Oh my God. Yeah, that was weird. That sounds like so many HR. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Needless to say, they didn't have working with children's jobs on their set. I mean, like, yeah, cause you were a performer first and foremost. So I guess like, you know, and you started in the industry, how will you start when you started in the industry? Um, I mean, like, I don't know even know how to answer that.

I mean, like I wanted to be an actor since I was like five. Yeah. It was my straight away thing. I performed under Milkwood. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. As like a six year old, which if you know that work, it's so inappropriate, but I love that my mom was like, woohoo, go girl. This suits you. Anyway, I loved doing that. And then I went to Newtown High, which is like performing arts and did that there.

And I like begged my mom to let me drop out of school so that she could fly me to LA and make me a famous, but she didn't. She told me to finish my education and I still resent her for that slightly, but you know what, at least she loves me. Another person I know did drop out of Newtown and got famous. So yeah, I had some regrets anyway. Um, so yeah, I don't know. I just like left high school and then went to acting school and I guess like been in the industry ever since.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I mean, it's hard with the Australian industry too, cause it's so small and like so much of it is independent. So you feel this like guilt that like, you can't really say that you're in it if you're not like in it. You know? Yeah. I, yeah. So that's weird, but you know, I've gotten a few things now and I'm like, yes, I can finally say that I'm an actor and I'm not lying because I've been paid bitch. Look at my wallet. It's not free. I'm not a laborer anymore.

It's not my hobby. Okay. It was like the first time I ever got paid for anything that was like not like my full time job. And I was like, I know. Yes. Look at this. I'm a legit. I'm a legit. But I mean like, yeah, I agree with you about the imposter syndrome because you know, like what makes me, you know, what gives me the authority as a 30 year old who has had, you know, some experience to tell other people of how much experience they should have by at any point.

I think that our industry is particularly bizarre in that aspect because there is no right or wrong way to go about it. There's just a way. Like I feel like I didn't, I, I, I thank COVID actually for helping boost my career, which I think before COVID I was saying to someone, I didn't have much of a career. I felt like I was really just kind of there and I was doing my full time work and the outside was just pittering. It was just kind of like occasionally.

And if I wasn't making something myself and you know, then I had nothing to prove that I was worth the, you know, the, um, you know, efforts of other people. So whereas now it's completely opposite. It's just gone. Oh, everyone kind of wants to do something with you rather than other way around. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's good. Yeah. What's so good?

Yeah. I mean like, but did like, do you feel like that now you're, you know, you're kind of just very busy, um, doing, doing the stuff that you wanted to do for years versus like stuff that you kind of just felt like you were kind of jumping from opportunity to opportunity to opportunity. Um, I don't know. I'd say like a bit of both, like, you know, I'm not like, yeah, it's not like I'm like full time employed on a TV show or whatever, which is what I would love to do.

Yeah. Um, but I feel, I just feel like, yeah, I've done more and it's just kind of like chugging along and it just feels like more of a, it feels like I was having severe existential crisis about the fact that I should probably just quit and go to law school because I would never be able to financially sustain this life. And then that's sort of changed now. And I kind of see how like you can make it work. Yeah. But it's tough, like fuck, you know, like it's so inconsistent.

You can literally be like doing a TV show one day and then the next day you're working at cafes. Like I have friends that do that. So it's a constant like up, down, up, down. And I feel like you always will have to struggle, you know, balance with the casual job or in an ideal world, you get a casual job. That's like in your field of interest. I would like to get more into like production. I did some, I was a runner on the voice. Actually, I was the coach's personal runner.

So I was hanging out with those guys. That's pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But anyway, that was like a fun job because it felt like I wasn't like, oh, damn, it was really interesting to see. And like, you know, I was involved with like, I guess like like-minded people and because it was in reality TV as opposed to film, I didn't feel like I was the shit runner that no one will ever take seriously because like, I don't want to work with the voice director.

I mean, unless they're writing a great film and then I would love to work with you. I mean, I don't think the voice director is writing a great- I don't even know if there is a director. I think there is. I think it's just kind of like- Yeah, there probably would be actually. Yeah, it would be like, with live things, it's not like, it's such a weird thing because I've worked a lot in live television and it's not like a director per se.

It's like a vision switcher slash director slash your controlling. But realistically, the EPs and the creative content and you're lining up for the brand. So realistically, that's who actually controls the content and how the work show flows. The director is there just to, you know, help guide all the technical stuff, really. I, yes. Like the lights and everything. It's really not like they're not sitting there or going, so line B should be this.

No, no. I thought it was going to be like that, but like that show is like fully real. Yeah. It's like fully reality TV. I was so impressed. It's big. It's fully like, it's real. Like what you see is like actually what happens, which was crazy. I mean, it is one of the most real live reality. Like they don't, it's one, it's continuous as well. It doesn't really stop, start like most reality shows where there's a little bit of a break. They work so hard. It goes for so long.

It's like fucking hard work. Yeah. How, why did we start talking about that? I don't know. You asked me something about my career and I was like, oh God, I don't know how to answer that. But yes, anyway, career, it's hard, I guess, like to be a real wanker about it. You're either like an artist or you're not. And if you're like an artist, like fuck yeah, like you're an artist and that doesn't matter if you work at a bar, you can still be an artist and work at a bar. You know? Yeah. I like that.

I mean, don't stop being a true artist. I mean, like, so let's, let's take you back to though, like, you know, starting out in the industry and everything. Like, do you think that was particularly difficult for you starting out in this industry in, especially in performing? I feel like I've never really struggled with like the actual performing, but when I left acting school, I was so insecure and like acting school, you know, it, it's amazing, but it can certainly highlight some insecurities.

So I left that pretty fragile. And I think the hardest thing is like the, um, the networking and just like the, the dealing with the industry, like being an adult, you know, I kind of was like, okay, I'll just like pop along to some auditions and it'll be awesome. And it's like, no, no, this is like a full blown adult world. You have to like, you know, be really like in it, but also be really free and playful and like be able to just perform all the time. You know what I mean?

Like it's a weird, like, you have the three personas, you know, you've got your like private persona, your actor persona, and then you've got like your business persona and you kind of have to juggle that, which took me a long time to learn. Yeah. I'd say my first two years out of acting school were a bit of a mess. I was like, what the fuck is happening? I don't know what the fuck I'm doing. But I did a lot of plays and that was good.

I mean, I would say predominantly I'm more of a theater performer. I don't necessarily want to be, but I would say that was mostly my thing. So yeah, I don't know. I guess it's hard. Yeah. It's also a small industry in Australia and globally. Like, it's, you know, it's not like there's a million jobs coming out. Like there are a million actors who are talented and there's like not that much work.

Yeah. I like, do you feel like, you know, especially as a female performer, do you feel like you were ever kind of exploited in any way? I have had a very bad experience in regards to that, but I wouldn't really know how to talk about that without defaming myself. Oh, defaming yourself. Or whatever the word is. Do you mean? Yes. That's really ominous. I've had some, yeah. Was that just particularly one situation? One particular situation, which was very unfortunate and makes me very cross.

But otherwise, like, no, not really. I mean, like sexism is just like a general thing in one's life that one just always has as a thing. Which is bizarre. So it's kind of weird to highlight it in acting. Like obviously it's there more, I think certainly it's changed like in my time. I think, you know, when I was at acting school, like some shit was being said that definitely wouldn't be able to be said now. But I think everybody's improving a lot on that front. So yeah, I don't know.

That's a hard question. I mean, obviously yes, but also it just, that just feels so obvious. Like I wouldn't know how to articulate the ways in which. No, and I totally get that. And I totally respect that. I think, especially just in terms of, you know, because it's, you know, we live in, we live in such progressive time, especially with like movements like Me Too, which only came out in the last two years. And then Cancel Culture has kind of like taken a big step forward.

You know, and probably not like I often say, not in the positive light. I feel like those two movements kind of happened to create some positives. And a lot of negatives. It's like feminism, I think is, you know, the feminist movement, great movement, created a lot of like wrong turns along the way as well. And then there's just, you know, I feel like it's the same problem I have with like male movements, everything, it just being about like this perspective of ignoring the other party.

And it's like, we've got to find a mid ground. We've always got to find it. And I feel like when we had the Cancel Culture movement, particularly, everyone was going up, you can't say anything without like the internet ripping you just shreds. And the same with the Me Too movement.

I think there was like, there was an interview with Morgan, like Morgan Freeman had said something or like hadn't said something, but someone was trying to defame him and say, you know, you touch someone inappropriately. And Morgan Freeman was like, there is no evidence to this and don't, you know, unless you actually have evidence, don't try and defame someone. Because I guess this is why it's difficult though, because like, you know, it's actually like hard to get evidence of that. Right?

So it's like, you got to have witnesses and everything. What, what, what else do you do? I think that's why these movements have come about because there isn't like any like hardcore evidence because of the culture that we've been living in. It took for people to go, you know, fuck this, I've had enough and like, I'm just going to rally behind believing this person and being like, if you said that happened, it happened man.

And we're just all going to like go with you on that, which of course, you know, and in like a super philosophical, idealistic world, you don't just believe someone because you agree with them politically. Sure. But I feel like it's like a natural, it's like a necessary progression to get to, you know, a place where people are more equal and like that shit stuff doesn't happen and it's got more of a no-no. Like people should be afraid to do things now because it's fucked up.

Yeah. And I, and I really noticed it as a generational thing as well. Like, you know, particularly, you know, it, and it can be a small generational gap, but you know, things like, um, you know, I remember that film, um, that Sia did. Prime example. Oh yeah, dude. That was cooked. What was she thinking? But some people I've met, I know personally don't see the issue with that. But it was so bad. You can't even justify it by being good. Like one, it was problematic. Two, it was shit.

Like, that's hard. Like fuck, you know, like if it was really like, wow, that was a stunning piece of art. You could be like, okay. I'll let you off the hook with this one. Yeah. But the combo is like, no, I'm sorry. Unforgivable. I know. And it's like, I just really tainted me. I mean, great musicians. Oh, great musician. Lover songs, but please never direct again. Like, yeah, but, um, that was not a choice you should have ever made and or justified. Have you ever listened to, um, Josh Epps?

I feel like you would like him. Yeah, it rings a bell. He's an ABC guy and he's like, he, he does a great interview with Stan, Stan, Stan, Stan Grant. Stan Grant. Stan Grant. That's why I did it. Cause Grant, you know, um, anyway. Like you Grant. Yeah, yeah. But you gotta make Stan Grant. Um, but yeah, anyway, he does like really good interviews with people and he's like very left wing, but he always comes at it from a place of like truth and like, I guess like really good faith arguing.

Yeah. So arguing with people knowing that you still respect each other and you're going to be able to like discuss ideas without getting, um, you know, overly emotional about it, I guess, or putting a foot wrong. Like no one's going to get in trouble for whatever they say here. So it's an interesting part. I feel like you would enjoy it. Okay. I should check it out. Cause that sounds right up my alley. I feel like yes, from hearing what you've said, I feel like you would.

Look, I am very politically charged in a good way, but I mean, like, look, I, I'm always up for more listening, listening to my earbuds. Um, but I mean, like, you know, I agree with that. Like there's always a, there's always a mid-ground.

I think it's important to remind myself of that and, and people, especially that, you know, everyone has a reason, you know, like people who are in their seventies think that you didn't blackface or something was justifiable and still think that's okay to do day. And you know, you're not going to be like, well, you know, I feel like calling everyone an archaic dinosaur is not the best response as well. It's kind of like, okay, well, while you think that that's okay, it's not okay.

And that doesn't make you a dinosaur. It just kind of that opinion isn't what people think now. And you can't then call people sensitive or too sensitive because they don't like that. There's kind of like both parties need to find that mid-ground to kind of just be like, okay, well, you know what? Shut up. But I mean, like there is also the same thing, you know, like, you know, domestic violence and, you know, sexual abuse or anything like that.

And especially like, you know, culture towards women on set or anyone, you know, like, God, hell, the queer community, like there's just like this whole, you know, like anything on set, whether, you know, you encounter any of that on set, it's funny how people don't find always the mid-ground and they, or they try and justify situations. Like it wasn't that long ago in, in our own political government, when they tried to cover up a like sexual assault in the government by sweeping, vacuuming.

Well, yeah, that was literally the fucking other day. Yeah, it was like vacuuming. And it's probably still happening to be honest. Like, Christ, that was appalling. Also, oh my God, on that, have you seen the video of Scott Morrison that came out today? Oh, what, the one where he's at the church going? Yeah, being like, and of course we all don't believe in the United Nations. And then the whole audience is like, yeah, the fucking United Nations won't lose. What a joke. What guys? I know.

It was the prime minister like, that's, wow. I know. He literally said, I don't believe in governments, you know, their shit and like, they don't work. And like, trust me, I've been in one. Like that guy was in charge. That's so funny. And also so, so. But you know, this is the thing, like when we had Trump, we had Scott Morrison and we had Boris Johnson and then we have none of them. Oh, they're out.

Bye. And I mean, like, you know, it's funny because the biggest criticism we get at the moment, which is like, you know, that I hear some people go, oh, Anthony Albanese is in Australia, come enough, but I'm like, he's fixing half the world's problems at the moment. He's not what? He's not in Australia. I thought you said he's not Australian. No, he is. I was like, oh, oh wow. Okay. We're really going into, I think we're going to have to terminate here. No, definitely not saying that at all.

Jesus Christ. That would have been chaotic. Anyway, that would have been a very interesting conversation. I wouldn't have known what to do. I was like, oh God, Meg, you made a terrible decision. Quickly throw the water on the podcast machine. Go, go, go, run, run, run. Distract him. But no, in all seriousness, he, like the biggest criticism I heard recently of the current government with Anthony Albanese was he was not in the country long enough. He is away a lot. He is away a lot.

And currently he is fixing everything Morrison undid. Well, yeah, exactly. Because we have so many international political issues and to put trust in other countries and create trading better. Like it's, you know, we are a country that is unfortunately an island. We cannot be independent of anything else. We are an island on the other side of the world where there aren't that many, like, you know, the biggest continents are in the Northern Temehsir.

And then we have small tiny continents in the Southern ones. We are like a small country. And I feel like when people look at that from a global perspective, that's, you know, he's doing the right thing. But I think it's not saying everyone in Australia is very narrow minded, but we do live in a very like liberal orientated country in parts. And I feel like liberal thinking or liberal government, liberal government, like bad liberal or good liberal. The bad liberal.

I love that there's a, isn't that the stupidest thing of the, like how we describe, are you a liberal thinker? Yes. Are you with the liberal government? No. Then why are you a liberal? Why did they name? Why? That's honestly plagued me. It's so confusing when you're speaking to people from overseas and you're like, you know, the liberals and they're like, great. And you're like, no, bad, bad. But anyway, oh, God damn it. And also like, you know, I mean, I think they're bad, but whatever.

I think they're terrible. It's like, I've always said, don't, you know, and, and it's, you know, the rule one on one when you're at any workplace, don't bring politics in with you. Don't bring, you know, your, your bad energy with you. Like if you've had a bad day, chat to your friends about it and chat to your coworkers, but don't bring your whole negative energy in, you know, try and compartmentalize and make sure you're not bringing everyone else down.

But I w I've worked many years with people going, nah, the liberal, the liberal government's great and labor's shit. And I'm like, sitting there as a green or labor voter and be like, Yeah. I think that's a very Australian thing to be like, don't never discuss politics. You know, it's a very sort of like, it's a very sort of, it's a conservative thing to say, I guess. Like I, I feel like that's kind of what is good about the times of now. Well, it was very philosophical. The times of now.

Is that everybody is discussing politics, you know, more and more uncomfortably. And I think that's really cool and important. Cause also, you know, your politics don't have to define your whole personality. No. Often they do, but they don't have to.

No. And I, and I feel like it's interesting cause like, you know, I sat down with Emily the other day and she raised this with me and it's like when I'm on set and sometimes to negate politics, like if someone's an asshole, I'll say, don't be an asshole. Like that's my rule 101.

But if someone's just has an opinion about something, I'm going to try and just be like, you know what, just going to try and skirt around this because that is, you know, unless they're like, oh, I hate, you know, an ethnic group or something and be like, okay, well, you're an awful human being or, you know, um, I think, you know, um, violence is funny. Like, nah, get the fuck away. You know, just go away. Um, but you know, like anything like that.

But I feel like in terms of people's just having opinions about stuff that I don't necessarily agree with and I'm like, okay, well I, you know, either disagree or just strongly disagree. I'm also going to be like, okay, well what's the most diplomatic way to not kind of start an argument or what's the most diplomatic way I can change your mind. Yeah. It's not by like necessarily yelling at you.

It's about having a conversation with you, but I think you have like certain people have limits to how much they can withstand and should be able to withstand. Like if there's some guy being really sexist, like TBH, like I CBF with you and I'm not, oh my God, I sound like a teenage girl. TBH, I CBF with you and I'm fucking talking to you about that right now. But you know, it's exhausting.

Like I don't want to have another conversation with a misogynist about why they're being in misogynist and it makes you feel uncomfortable. And you always just feel like the dumb girl in the room. Yeah. Hence me saying TBH, you know, TBH. TBH, you're being sexist. But I mean, like, you know, I a hundred percent agree with that. And I think it's kind of reconvincing.

I mean, like there are some people I could never convince otherwise because it, you know, it's so deeply ingrained in their like essence that you're like, okay, only if I strapped you down and did like the, um, you know, clockwork orange kind of situation and showed you flashing images, would I be able to get you out of this state of mind? But I can't, do you want to know a secret? Yeah. Even though it's my secret. So I've never seen clockwork orange. Really?

Or read the book, but I fully say I have when people ask. Um, that is so interesting. Yeah. I mean, like, I'm too scared. It sounds really scary. It's, it's, it's intense.

I feel like it's more intense, especially for people who have ever been in like those kinds of situations, like, um, I definitely know that, um, when I watched films with Emily, she doesn't like anything in terms of like the domestic violence against women or anything like that, unless it's like actually just the aftermath or something's happened and you kind of see the ripple effects, but she does not like watching, you know, like we sit

there sometimes and she goes, why are always the women, the one in danger? Like, why is this always happening? So boring. And I, you know, sit there and just go this, you know, I feel sorry for you, but at the same time, I've never had that perspective where I can't walk down the street and feel safe. Um, and you know, obviously she has had that her entire life where it's like, you know, walk down the street and, you know, hope that someone doesn't. Kidnap her or throw in a car.

And, you know, this is a difficult thing about politics because you really can't understand what someone else goes through who isn't like you. So you can have an opinion about what should happen or how they should talk about it or you know, what should change politically or how much they should be screaming or not. But really like you will never be able to know that. So it's kind of like, uh, like maybe don't, maybe like that's not your moment. But also like, I don't know, this is too complex.

Move on. You're like, and done. I'm being political as I said earlier. No, I agree. I agree wholeheartedly with the move on. I am Anthony Albany. Um, but no, I, I do agree that you cannot, and I, and I feel like that's the, but you can try, you can try and empathize. And when someone is telling, this is the comes back to the believing someone. Yeah. When someone tells you something and you trust them as a person, you know, believe them like it's so annoying.

I do find like a lot of times as a woman, I'll say things and you really have to prove that you're actually have been oppressed because of your gender. Yeah. And you have to like prove it. And it's like, dude, oh, it's so frustrating. Like it's like, dude, just believe me. Yeah. Believe me. It's, it's kind of also very baffling because I feel like it, it happens.

So subjectively as well, because, you know, we, we walk in this society where it's like, okay, well women automatically have to have long hair. Do they, you know, Oh, and if they have short hair, they must be gay. Are they like, yeah, of course. It's just the societal rule. No, I, I, I signed this thing at birth. I couldn't even spell my own name, but that's kind of like, I society rules. Yeah. Um, it makes things simpler.

Yeah. But I mean, like, you know, I think, you know, most of my friends as well, I would describe as very like, you do just, I, I, I, until, you know, most of my female friends I grew up with, I had a lot of female friends growing up. I had about all my, in fact, I had only one male friend, probably in my entire group. It was just me, him and the rest were girls. So it was like, I grew up in that surrounding.

So whenever I see people go, Oh, the girls don't act the way I, it's like, what way should you act? What way should anyone act? But I feel like we have this really society. It's like when I stand next to people and they talk to me about cars or sport and I have no interest, I'm sorry. I fucking hate both those things, but they're like, Oh, why don't you like these things? And I'm like, because they're not that interesting to me, but they find it baffling that that is not an interest.

And it's like, why should it be like, um, but yeah, it's, we are so ingrained in our structure and society. Like, you know, you could be like, Oh, um, you know, I, I decided to wear, you know, like baggy t-shirt and jeans, um, jeans today, but everyone was like, Oh, I should wear a dress. And I was like, why? Why? Like, do you feel like that even now in your mid twenties, where you kind of like people still kind of look at you and go, Oh, you should dress differently.

Or do you get those throwaway comments? I mean, I feel like it's just not as overt as that. Hey, like, not really. But then again, my circles are pretty. Like I live in a bit of a bubble, like my parents, both artists, grew up in like a very artistic left leaning household. It's a very unstable house. That is crazy. Um, and like, I went to new town high. Yeah. Um, I met my first racist in Queensland and that was like a big experience for me. I was like, wow.

I was fully shocked that people said what they said, which is kind of stupid. But I did kind of grow up in a little bubble. I guess I hadn't really thought about it before. So that really opened my mind. Um, and now I just hang out with like artists. So I guess like nothing's as overt as that. It's much more like intricate and complicated. And yeah, like I don't, I mostly wear baggy clothes. Yeah. I think no one really has ever commented on that. That's, I mean, that's fair.

I mean, it's, it's, I think I've only ever hung out with artists. And I remember like, um, I had this thing, I painted my nails, like the first time I ever painted my nails and I got very terrified the first time, cause I went to a gym, which was particularly very like macho man, male orientated. And I remember thinking, dear God, I'm going to get ripped to shreds. So I kind of at the time, and I regretted entirely. Well, fully like that actually could happen.

I know it's nuts, but I mean, like, you know, I remember going to the gym and just like, no, my flatmate did it.

And, you know, and she, you know, she helped me, but it was like one of those things where it was like, oh, no, she dared me to do it just to get around the fact that I was like, I kind of, I wanted this and I didn't mind, but yeah, that was so interesting that I feel like, you know, until now it's, and even at work, man, you know, like some days at work, you've just got to like, I work predominantly with very white straight men who have very particular ways of living. I am not that.

And I feel like that's my biggest hurdle is, you know, just going to society. This is representation of, um, as straight as I can go and as not, you know, any type of queer or, you know, artsy and just be very neutral. But I guess in that saying, it's not my true self. Like there's always like, as you say, your real self, your self and your like business self. And it's just like, how do you. Well, I think also like humans, we're, we're really like, want to fit into a group of people.

So naturally, like when we're in a room full of people all agreeing on something out, we, we don't want to be the, you know, one that's left out and it's really hard to be that person. Yeah. I don't know many people like that. I know like, I can literally think of two people off the top of my head who actually just like, won't change their mind or change what they say when they're in a group of people who think differently. But most people, like, I mean, that's terrible.

I shouldn't like all my friends are literally iconic, but I feel like everybody to a small degree, it's not like they'll be like, Hey, like we hate women. And then, you know, my male friend will be like, yeah, me too, dude. But I mean, some, that would have been amazing segue. All my friends are like that. No, they would all be like, no, that's fucked. Yeah. But I don't, I mean, that's way too specific. You know what I'm trying to say?

It's hard to be really like constantly entirely yourself all the time, unapologetically, never bending to like make other people feel more comfortable because that is what empathy is, right? Like you're always trying to make, I mean, I feel like I'm always trying to make other people feel like, Oh, it's all good. Like this is all good. I mean, like we agree. And then I get frustrated and then I just like give up and end up giving people dirty looks by accident.

I have the resting bitch face curse. It's tough. I've you know what though? I think of out of all the times we've ever spoken or anything, you've never given me the once resting bitch face. Really? Never. That is iconic. No one's ever said that every time I talk to people, they say, you know, when I first met you, I thought you were a bitch because you've got this terrible resting bitch face. I think it was because the first time we ever spoke. Must be really working on it.

Yeah. It was like the first time we ever had a conversation, I think was on the phone and we chatted for about half an hour, 40 minutes about like the good and bad elements of the industry. And then the second time we ever met was like at the cafe. So it was one of those situations and you were going through a terrible breakup. So, you know, it's one of those cycle of breaks. Your bitching face was entirely, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just ignored probably.

And that's what I cover your... It was replaced by my sad face. Yes. It was on a, like a work break and needed a little rest and... Yeah, yeah. It was just sad. But I mean, like, absolutely. I don't, I, I think, I also like that, you know, you are, you're, you're such a genuine soul as well, you know, which... Oh, thanks. Oh, you're like, you hate compliments, don't you? You're like... You know what, to be honest, like, I don't even, I, I'm now, I'm blushing. You are.

You're like, I don't know what to do with this stuff. I don't love a compliment. I also don't really like talking about myself, which is like, I think I've come across as a real wanker in this. I loved it. I'm trying to like be better at talking about myself. Like I can to like my friends. Yeah. But it's so awkward to be like, yeah, my career, you know? Yeah, I know. You wouldn't think I am. I mean... I'm just a rando. Famous rando. I am.

But, but I mean, like, I mean, now that you've sort of like, you know, going into the fame and fortune... I'm not a cool... But no, but I mean, like, do you still kind of consider, like, where do you sit on the borderline of just like, you know, because as a performer and especially as a creator, you know, there's always that walking fine line of who do you pay, who do you not pay? Are you going to get paid as an actor? Are you not going to get paid for this role? Like that is the hardest thing.

You've got to weigh up your options of whether the project is something you believe in and sacrifice your like your time and energy or it's completely to the wayside and you actually just don't think it's worth anything like and drop it like that. How do you, how do you deal with that even today? I think like I used to just say yes to everything all the time because I think that's a great way to start to be honest. Um, I just used to say, yes, yes, yes.

Cause I was so hungry and like, I just wanted to meet people and I've met some amazing people from doing that, you know, so that was a good choice. Um, but now I think just for my own self worth, like I won't do anything for free because yeah, I mean, I mean, like, you know, unless it was like fucking incredible and I thought like, this could be really good for me. Like this could really like help my career and like, this is amazing.

And I really respect this person or if it was like a friend, you know, if a friend wanted me to be in their short film, like, of course. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I feel like even if it's just like a small sum, like even if it's just a hundred bucks, you know, or like profit share, like that's just, that just like has to be my boundary now. Otherwise you just feel shitty, I guess. And like my time is worth something. AV is. I don't, who am I? Why am I saying this? You're like imposter syndrome.

I've literally like learned that script in the mirror to myself. I mean, like you're worth it girl. Fucking worth it. Even a hundred bucks. You're worth a hundred bucks. I really, I feel like, but you know, I think that is true. I think that's a fair thing to say. What do you think about that? I, I a hundred percent agree. And I think that it's only come out of just, I probably this year or it's like before this year, I used to be like, yeah, whatever, you know, I'll help people.

And I think it's cause of that eagerness. Cause I know a lot of artists who don't, um, you know, not everyone has the budget and not everyone like, and I do a lot of bits and bobs. Well, yeah, it's like, I've made films for people and they work for free, you know, like, whoa, like I'm not saying that I'm like better than them or anything like that at all. Yeah. Like I just think, you know, you, you ha you have to have a relationship with yourself.

You it's more about my relationship with me and going like, okay, if you're going to keep beating yourself up for not being a real actor, you need to like change something in that. So you feel more fucking legitimate. Yeah. I think it's also like, um, I've, I've got like a couple of like photo shoots, but after this year, it's everything. If you want to photos charged, cause I'm just at that point where I'm like, I could just earn money from this.

Like if you want to, like headshots and stuff, bank, bank, bank, bank, very happy bank. Um, yeah. How do you feel on capitalism? How long have we been talking? Shit man. It's been like two hours. I can't do capitalism now. No, no, I'll give you my brief wrap on capitalism. I mean, like you, I will literally rap for you. I'll probably do. No, no, no, no. I'm doing that. But I feel like capitalism is so cooked it, we haven't found a better solution yet. No, we need to try because it fucking sucks.

I agree with that. I think it also just doesn't align with art, which is entirely based on, I think. Or social, like equality, social equity. No. And I think it's also like, you know, we've only recently fallen into this time, which is like, we had a liberal government for so long that didn't support the arts, especially during COVID, especially during those high points. And then, you know, there's artists like you and me trying to make stuff, talk about it, you know, get it out there.

And then suddenly it's just like, oh yeah, you're going to make, you know, and making films are fucking expensive. Yeah. They're bazillions. It's so expensive. Yeah. It's nuts these days. You know, I remember, you know, I've never met anyone ever, ever who's made anything and not spent some money on a film. Yeah. Like it's impossible. I mean, with the, with the farm one, what was like the biggest kind of scary, you know, like stress in terms of financial or money time? Well, we got sponsored.

Oh, that's good. By Blundstone Boots. By Blundstones, guys. They're so comfortable. They paid me to say that. Did they? No, they didn't. Well, I own some of this. Is it a profit share kind of situation? Yeah, I brought some free boots for you. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Anyway, yeah, we got sponsored by Blundstones. So that was good. And that like covered, I think they gave us like 8,000.

So that covered like all the, everyone had to have accommodation and food because we were literally in the middle of the desert and like travel, like petrol and all that stuff. And then we did a crowd fund and that covered like equipment, which is always so expensive. And then there's like insurance and then all the post fees. So I think in the end, we ended up like raising enough money to cover that film completely. Wow. And it was maybe like nearly 20K.

And then the second film, we both are out of pocket in a big way, but we also got sponsored by Telstra for that one. Wow, Telstra. Yeah, yeah. How much did you pay for that? How did that one happen? Were they like, can you promote 5G in your products? Wait till you see the film. It's just 5G signs and Telstra and everyone's using Telstra. The characters are 5G. No, we had phones in the script already. So it just kind of was like a perfect partnership.

And yeah, we were like, well, we have phones so like we can show the little Telstra icon at the top, I guess, but they didn't even make us do that. How did we get that? Because we were working with a organization called Phoenix House, which is like a education service for kids who are homeless, essentially. Oh, okay. So we partnered with them and we were like, hey, we would like to include you guys in this film. Like we want to hear your opinion. We want to hear what you think.

We want you to come on set if you want to and like help out. And like, if you're interested in filmmaking, like you can like work with the makeup artists or like, you know, bring your skills and then like, we'll come to you and like talk to you about acting and filmmaking and show you some videos and stuff for free. Because really we just did that because we were like, well, we're writing about DV and youth homelessness and like neither of us have had that experience.

So let's make it more, you know, genuine, I guess. Yeah. And then it just became this amazing thing where it was like, holy fuck, this is amazing. Like, it's so interesting to meet these kids and you know, anyway, so then for some reason we told Telstra that and then they gave it some money. Wow. Which was really cool. Wow. That's really good. Yeah, it was, but then COVID happened in a big way.

So that really stunted that involvement there, but the kids did come to set and we went to them and it was really, it was really great. Wow. That's awesome. Yeah. I mean, like it's annoying that you're out of pocket in some regard of that film, but I mean, like it's, you know, there's no film that you're ever not going to make and some would be out of pocket. Well, also it's hard with short films, right? Because like you're never going to make money from them either.

No. Like they're not going to make money for you, you know? No, no. So, um, and they're just little, little droplets of passion put out into the world. They're what we call passion projects. Yeah. For us when we feel low and down.

Yes. But no, I mean, like it's, it's pretty incredible because I feel like most of the time, you know, like you've got Australian cultural fund, you've got Indie, IndieGoGo, you've got GoFundMe like now as platforms as well, but reaching out to people, you know, and really kind of getting that like, oh look, you know, because sponsorship is not something that people think of, especially when they make short films. No, it's not a short film. No, it's not at all.

I, yeah, I don't know if like, I know anyone who's done that. I just, my partner is like a crazy business brain guy. That's great. And he was like, dude, let's do this. We just emailed them and just gave them, I'm giving away my secrets. Wait, fuck, delete this. Do not email them. They will not respond. They will just send you a do not respond. Meg Clark said no. No, but really guys, like you should do it. Yeah, because like we're all about helping each other.

No, and I think, and just email Meg because you'll find her. I'll help you. I'll tell you who to email. Here's my list of contacts. And they also don't give me the out my contacts, but sure, I gave them out anyway. Uh, yes. But no, that's it. It is interesting to know that that is possible for young artists, especially to, you know, get films made and not be entirely in their pocket because I, yeah, it's not an avenue, people think of.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, this is what is fucked about capitalism though, because it means that like everybody who wants to make a film who isn't being produced by a big studio or being paid to do it has to be rich and like that's fucked, you know? Yeah. So that's why I think, yeah, companies should sponsor you because if they hadn't like, to be honest, we wouldn't have been able to do it. Like we didn't have the money. Like it was like, please, or sorry guys, it's not happening.

Yeah. Like we will work as hard as we can to get there, but like, I don't know what we would have done. Yeah. And I mean, like that's kind of like the crunch of most things is, you know, and it's like what COVID does, you know, especially put a hole in some projects, which, you know, obviously put them stop and stuff, but you kind of reprioritize and you go, okay, well, I can afford this or I wait for the investment and then, uh, you know, and then it can definitely happen.

Yeah. Um, yeah, but it's so unfair because there's so many people who are so talented and who would never be able to have the opportunity to make anything. Yeah. You know, it's a, it's a, basically at the end of the day, capitalism sucks. And it does, it does. It needs to be rejigged and reshaped. I've heard that conversation more and more this like past a month. Well, it's true. It's true. It's true.

This whole free market, I keep hearing this, the invisible hand of capitalism, free market economy where you can like buy whatever you want and like sell it. And then like, no one can get you in trouble and like get rich. All those buzzwords. I'm like, no bad. And I don't really know what they mean, but I know I'm not into them. Can you just be the running narrative voice of my like in a monologue? Cause that was fantastic. Free market, invisible hand. Woo. I'm hungry.

It's also like, yeah, because we live in a cashless system now, it's, it is kind of scary because it's all numbers and dimes and you know, everything goes down. It's not even real. Nah, it's and it's, you know, I find the whole thing of like, you know, profit sharing and everything, you know, someone who explains, I barely understand how I make money, let alone how it manages itself. That terrifies me. It seems to go into my bank, then out of my bank. Like this is the dude I know.

And I'm so bad at maths that I'll like look at my bank and be like, someone's robbed me because I've only spent a hundred dollars here, $60 here and $300 there. Like that is not $500. That is less, right? Right? It's not. No, no, I had to do some quick maths just then for that joke. That was some quick math for that joke. Wow. I'm impressed with myself. I'm impressed. I think I said $480. I think that's what it was. Anyway, anyway, it doesn't matter.

But seriously, like that's, whoa, that's no bad. Yeah, I know. I mean, this is, and this is why we have accountants and you know. Yeah, man, I love my account. Yeah. Cause you freelance. So that's kind of the only way you. Yeah, dude, that my gov thing and it's asking you these questions and you're like, what are you talking about, dude? I have no idea. What does that word mean? Yeah, I know. And what are you fucking on about? Like what? It's gibberish.

Yeah. How the fuck do people do their tax on my gov? And the thing is like, I just, I just gave up and was like, I'm just going to click through and I'm just going to get to the end so I can just get some tax return because I'm poor and I need it. Yeah. But it wouldn't even let me keep going. It was like, choose your option of whatever the fuck. Yeah. What? Do you know about this stuff? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, okay. Wow. Okay. It's so far. Do you want to be my accountant? Uh, no, I don't.

I hate doing my taxes. I have to, I have to go through all my like actual, um, you know, dividends and fill out in. That's what I'm talking about. That word that's come up for me. Yeah. It's like, have you added your dividends? What do you mean? Why? What is that? Um, it's basically all your expenses that kind of go under your job and how much a percentage is. I do know. Yeah. Yeah. And I claim about 50% of all my dividends of any tax agents listening. I claim 50% because get fucked.

I'm not evading taxes. Um, but yeah, like I use half of it for work related reasons and the other half of fun. So, you know, what's also F'd. I met an actor who also casually worked as an accountant. Amazing. What a legend. Anyway, he told me that most people who get audited are like low income earners because they will lie on their tax return.

Cause like, fuck, they think no one's watching and no one cares, but they're the people that usually get audited and then end up owing the tax department. Yeah. Not millionaires. No. That's so fucked up. Yeah. Cause to me, if I got audited and I owed them a thousand dollars, I'd be like, that's huge, man. That's like a big deal for me. Like that's like, I'm, I'm in strife. Yeah. For a millionaire, that's like, you wouldn't even notice. No, it'd be like pittance. It'd be a walk in the park.

It would be like, oh, like you wouldn't even see it. No, no, but that's, that's the problem. You know, we have a class system still and it is, you know, we are low. We are, you know, even though we get money, we are still on the low end of, you know, the social economic ladder. Because, you know, we are artists and we don't earn enough to then for break the bank and be like, you know, we're poor and miserable.

We know we earn enough to be not poor and miserable, but we don't earn enough to like buy a mansion or buy a house. But then don't you get that? Like, I always get this guilt where I feel like, oh, you know, it's so hard. I'm so poor because I'm an artist. And then I'm like, oh, fuck man. Like that's like my choice. I know. Like it's a really fun thing to do. Yeah. And like you could also be a lawyer or a social worker. And that would actually be like helpful. I mean, not that art isn't helpful.

Oh my God. It's actually just Satan. I feel like we're going to have a horrible nightmare tonight. I'm just like, oh my God. You're going to have these like Satan with an invisible hand being like, give me my tax. Give me my tax or tell artists. And you're going to be like, oh my God, Meg, she fucked me up. I'm not going to sleep well tonight. Anyway, I don't actually think that art is very legitimate. It got everyone through COVID. It is literally all anyone ever did.

I've watched television, like literally we're obsessed with it. We're obsessed with television, but I just, I just get that guilty feeling sometimes. That like, you know, maybe I shouldn't complain about being poor. I miss my parents. I love ASMR. ASMR. And on that beautiful night. No, I don't think you should complain about being an artist. Um, but also I think yeah, it's fair to complain, but that beautiful night, I think that's a perfect point to wrap us.

Um, I was going to ask you the question. Where can people stalk you, Meg? Oh, um, my name is Meg Eloise Clark at Instagram. Yeah. And that's, that's pretty much the one. Yeah. We'll go and stalk you. I also have Facebook, but I feel like Facebook's lame now. No one uses it. Yeah, no one uses it. And I don't have TikTok. I'm too old for that. I have TikTok and I'm too old. You're older than me. I'm older than you. I just don't get it. I just don't get it.

I get fucked video showing to me and I'm like, whoa, I don't want to see this. I like shark videos. That's what I like. Anyway, I'm just rambling. I love it. Um, but no, thank you so much for joining us. In absolute flesh. I've loved every second. You're like, what the fuck did I say? I don't know. I'm stressed. Anyway, bye. No, it was an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for having me on. I've had a wonderful time. I'm glad you're like threatened to leave. It's a point.

You're almost been chaotic, but I've loved it. So thank you. And if you want to go check out more episodes of the things we do, you can check them out on Apple and Spotify. I'll be speaking with another guest next week and I'll speak to you later. Goodbye.