The Things We Do... - Interview with Madison Heinze

This is the Things We Do podcast, a podcast about film, life, television, culture, mental health and all of that fun jazzy stuff. Today I've got my special guest and friend Madison Heinze. Hello. Oh, hi. How are you going? Good. How are you? Very well. That was very smooth transition. I had to think, it was a whole thought process. Yeah. I was like, I'm going to get the Z right at the end because I could have just stopped at Heinz. I know. It's so true.

You think of the baked beans and you're like, yeah, that's what it is, but no, it's got an E on the end. It's got an E on the end. Is it German or is it- It is German, yes. Yes. You've got the German last name. Yes, correct. Yes. So yeah, I originated from the Barossa Valley in South Australia. So that's German territory traditionally. So yeah, it's- What did the Germans colonize that section of Australia? They were just like settled there. I was like, why is it German territory there?

Well, I don't think it's like, it's not necessarily like German territory in terms of strictly Germans only, but it's more that primarily a lot of the families there are German families. Yeah, a lot of them. So a lot of the last names are very, very, you know, common German last names. Yeah. So it's very kind of like centralized. Yes. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Cause I know my last name is German. Seewald is actually a very German name.

And yeah, but our family originated from Scotland and England. So I don't know how we ended up with a German last name, but I guess it came from somewhere. I guess. Cause yeah, we did enough research into the history of my dad, courtesy of him. Yeah. Found out that the name was originated from German and it was called originally, if you pronounce it in German, I think it's Tybald. Oh, right. Cause you don't do the TH like the, it's just to, and yeah, it's, it's very bizarre.

Whereas like everything else is very Anglo-Saxon, like English in my name, which is Mun and then Grokoly. Yeah. And I don't know, it's very like, um, I don't, it sounds so regal as well, especially when there's current climate with names and we just lost the Queen. Yes. I know. Um, I was on the phone to my parents the other day. It was like one of those conversations. And I think, cause we're not a Royalist family.

Yeah. Neither am I. Um, but I remember mum and dad were just like, it is kind of sad for us because our relation to like Prince Philip and the Queen has been our entire lives, they're in their sixties now and it's like, that's an understanding because they've known nothing else like, except for, you know, post-war, like fifties, sixties, kind of seventies and eighties, like era where you still were kind of feeling the ramifications of World War II and World War I. And then suddenly to now.

So yeah. And then suddenly we lose Queen and Prince Philip, who was, you know, both weren't perfect people. They were quite racist and problematic. And also if anyone wants to do research and how much taxpayer dollars go into the Royals, it's a lot. Um, it's so much money. There's like, I think this funeral is costing England alone, like so much money. It's like millions to like, it's so enormous because it's like, you've got poverty issues. Yeah. Of course.

But then you've got people who sit in a castle and, and have a, and we treat them like gods. We like the, you know, the problem is the Brits treat them like gods. So you've got this downside of it where it's like, it is patriotism. It is like, and the same with America, but we don't have that in Australia. Like we don't have that level of, well, at least I don't feel like we do have that level of patriotism. Um, because you know, we, we've very much a remote Island.

We're very much like New Zealand. We don't, our closest connection is New Zealand. Like realistically, we've got Australia and then we've got New Zealand. So we kind of feel more affiliation to them than we probably do to our, you know, original country. Correct. Yeah. And, um, and it was a way kind of like had this debate all the time, which is like, um, something which is we are on technically stolen land.

We were as colony, we were a colony Island and we stole it from the people who lived here. Yeah. And if you think about it, it's why like my biggest pet peeve is, you know, I don't know if you remember in school, like the curriculum level, like, oh, we only have 200 to 300 years of actual history. It was like, we have so much more. We have like thousands. Um, but they don't really talk about that in a modern setting, like even to this day.

And I feel like the problem now with as unfortunate as the Queen and stuff, don't, I think it is the perfect time to become our own country and, and, and not, you know, if you don't think of a Republic as a great idea, that's fair enough. But I do think we've got so many Australian figures like, you know, indigenous people and indigenous leaders who should have statues over the Queen. Absolutely.

I do think it's interesting that Anthony Albanese, as much as I like him as a PM, I think it's a very odd and it's probably a generational thing. It's patronism where he's like, I'm going to put up this way for people to commemorate the Queen in Australia in Hyde Park. I'm like, why? It's the most bizarre thing because the modern generation coming in care less than your generation was. Yeah, exactly.

Which is, I guess, and I mean, like for someone who's had a life like him, um, who's very open about that, it does kind of a little, I think it is probably the only thing is that he just feels like it was part of his generation. So he's like, I want to put something from my friends and family rather than the new people, but I'm like, that's still art. It's not necessarily our culture.

You know, it's, you know, with, you know, with the indigenous in Australia, like they're, they've got such a rich history as well. And storytelling is such a massive thing and it's so important and the land as well. So I think, you know, rather than concentrating on, you know, the Queen and everything and you know, yes, she was important and she, you know, achieved a lot and everything, but you know, our indigenous society is just, it's so important as well.

And unfortunately, I think it gets neglected. Well, I mean, it wasn't only recently a few years back that they stopped people going on Uluru, like physically walking Uluru. And I was like, thank goodness this has taken however many years for people to actually realize that this is probably not the smartest move. And I mean, like, um, you know what, I, there was an interesting doco.

I've talked about it many times, but I really recommend people watching it, which is there is two indigenous cops who worked in, uh, WA. Um, and they talk about their experiences being in a remote town and just how little there are actually in terms of indigenous police officers. And that is a huge neglect on Australia as a society that not enough indigenous people are given positions of power and say, yes.

And especially in our Western culture where we are, we fought, and I will say this not lightly, we do force our culture onto, you know, we are in this societal stand where our day-to-day experience, whether you mean it or not, you are forcing the Western way of thinking onto others. And these people have learned English because the English gave them no choice. It wasn't going to be the other way around.

So I do think that making, um, you know, giving everyone a fair say is more important, especially with like, you know, flipping around to back to film eventually. I think that's what our, you know, particularly our industry that we work in is particularly like important because then we give people, whether it's to doco or drama or, you know, or fiction, um, anything like that.

We give people an opportunity to have a say that isn't necessarily our own voice, but it's someone else's and therefore everyone kind of, you know, has this bigger opportunity to kind of spread awareness. But then the downside is showing films aren't well received internationally always because of our accent. But I do want to swing us around to you Madison.

Yes. You want to ask the obvious question that I know, but I want you to get excited to everyone on the internet on our ears, who you are and what you do. So they have some context. Yeah, for sure. So like I'm a camera assistant. I've been a camera assistant for probably four, four or five years now. And um, you know, I love it. It's, it's been quite a journey so far already.

So um, like I studied photography beforehand before going into film and then, um, yeah, decided in my second year of studying photography and went, Oh, okay. You know, I'm kind of, I'm noticing that I'm noticing a shift with my work that I'm enjoying the moving image a lot more as well. So you know, that was one of our subjects was like video art as well.

So it's kind of, you know, it's very highly conceptual and that kind of, um, that kind of vibe, but I really enjoyed working with the moving image. So I just, you know, in myself, I thought, okay, well, I can see a bit of a shift going on. Um, so yeah, I decided to move to Sydney and study at afters. So the Australian film and TV radio school and, um, yeah, so I studied like a six month, uh, diploma of camera course there as well.

And the main reason I chose that is so that I actually had flexibility to be able to work in the industry as well. Yeah. Because, you know, um, like bachelor degrees and everything, they're very important and so on, but I found, you know, me being quite a practical person as well and you know, the destination was like, I want, I would like to be in camera department.

So for me, it's like, yes, I really, really want to, you know, actually physically hold a camera and actually understand how to use it as well. Yes. Yeah. Yes. So I, um, yeah. So I studied that and, you know, just was very, very, very fortunate that I got offered, uh, to do an attachment on a Fox tail job. So basically just sort of from there, just, you know, working, working up into the industry as a, as a camera assistant. Wow. Yeah. And that's, and that's been four years.

Yeah. Yes. Do you feel overwhelmed ever? Oh, I don't really, I wouldn't really say like overwhelmed, but definitely like, you know, it's taken, it's taken a lot of hard work and it's taken a lot of persistence as well. So when I was at afters, I also volunteered on a lot of the master short films as well, just to, just to actually get experience with, okay, what's a set like, how does it work and everything.

And um, and actually, you know, touching, um, uh, like actually industry based cameras as well, which is just such an important thing to be able to establish and go, okay, well like I can actually use these cameras. I can understand them because you know, they're, they're so different to your, you know, your little DSLR and everything as well. So, you know, trying to make sure that you actually have the understanding behind them and say, okay, I got, I got this now.

I always remember like back in the day, um, and I make it sound like, you know, like a hundred years ago, but it's all like 25 years ago, but I do remember everyone walking around with like those giant cameras, which clearly had like your little, um, your little tapes in them and you know, and disks that they had to go through like hundreds of, you know, them a day. Cause like, you know, you'd record onto four by three crappy videos and then format them and digitize them.

Um, and I remember actually when my parents gave me like a handy cam for, I was like nine or 10 and it had like little cassette tapes in it. I remember having to work out how to digitize that and play it in real time to the computer and that's like my earliest memory of like before digital became like this, just SD card and you put it in and you kind of upload.

And I do love the old school where it like, it takes a while to do and everything's kind of, you got to like really understand what a camera does prior to doing anything with it. Um, and I miss that because nowadays like the cameras that come out are so user friendly. Yes. Very, very. And I love manual. I just love knowing how, you know, color temps work, how like everything works and how you just go, okay, cool.

This shot, how I'm going to try and match it as close to this other shot that I did earlier so that color grading isn't going to be a nightmare. Yes. Cause like that's always like the funnest thing, um, that I learned, but I mean like as a camera assist, you're basically building the camera for the DOP and the camera operator. Yes. Correct. So it's like a, you know, the ins and outs of how to set it up, like what lenses it uses, what lenses you need.

Yes. Um, what's the kind of like, do you ever have a fear of breaking some? Um, you know, sometimes, yes, sometimes, but, um, like I was also a rental prep technician as well. So a couple of years back, I used to work at LEMAC and, um, so I was, you know, often seeing cameras come in and working with different types of cameras as well.

So, um, you know, being able to have that exposure to, you know, understanding the, the ins and outs of, you know, certain lenses, certain cameras, um, and actually having time to go through their menus and all of that as well. And then obviously maintenance of the gear itself. So it's really, it's definitely really helped me to understand that side of things as well.

Like, because as a camera assistant, like that's part of your job as well as maintaining the gear and making sure that, you know, if something does break, you report it straight away and you know, that kind of thing. Whereas, you know, like, um, I've got to the point now where I'm like, I don't want to break things. I want to make sure that, you know, everything's perfect. Everything's right. Yeah. So let's avoid breaking things.

I mean, like, yeah, cause like lenses and, or bits of gear can cost like thousands of dollars and it's, I remember like the first time I ever got lenses cleaned, they're like $300 to clean a lens professionally, um, where they take it apart. They take out the glass, they literally dismantle the whole thing, clean it and then put it all back together. Yes, exactly. And, and look, I recommend if you're a photographer or anything, go and get your lenses cleaned because there is a lot of dust.

A lot. And it builds up underneath the elements as well. So sometimes like, especially coming from a rental house as well. So I was able to actually see like that same process as well of them being actually physically taken apart and then actually seeing the ins and outs of like what, what the lens is like when it's not in its casing. Yeah. And it's, it's quite fascinating, but it's also like, you know, scary as well.

Yeah, cause it's like this bit of chunk of glass that you're like, Oh no, this could break. It's kind of like a magnifying glass in a way. Yeah, it is. It's, it's very much that principle of you're looking through a magnifying glass, but with a mirror and other elements to kind of bounce light through to, cause the way I always think of lenses is like, like eyes, you think of them as like an eye.

So a singular, like if anyone wants to do that sort of theory, we cover one eye and that's all you see is like that lens and then the way the light enters is the sensor and everything and so forth. You basically imagine it like that, but it's a much more complicated eye. Like you have complete, you, you actually have all the manual control of this eye.

So you're, you know, resetting everything from colors to, you know, but I do find with different cameras, like I was just thinking while you were talking, my favorite camera in terms of LUTs or like log format would be the Sony. I love Sony. It's great. It's easy. It's super like they come out in this very flat format when you record in log and then you have so much to play with to kind of pull out and get color temps and everything.

But then with terms of like actual cameras though, that's the only thing I love about Sony. Cause Sony are very like, I love them. I feel like they're the most limited kind of camera to use in unless you're, you know, you're an indie artist and you particularly want to shoot something on a Sony. But as like most cameras, I love, I love black magics. They're great. And I also love like Ari Alexas because they're just stunning and beautiful.

And, and I've also, I particularly, if I would go to lenses, anything anamorphic, I love anamorphic lenses. The flares. But also what I didn't realize and I was researching, this is how much of a nerd I am sitting on YouTube watching videos about like cameras and lighting and sound. All my day, every day.

And one of the things that I learned was about anamorphic lenses is the image because of the way the lens is and it tilts in a certain way and it shifts whenever you sort of change the position and focal lengths, it does create a blurred outline. So you know, most people don't know that, that a lot of your image will be a bit blurred on the outer region.

And you need to understand what an anamorphic lens does before you use it because I've seen it used very wrong over the course of a few years of watching TV or film or anything where people have just been given anamorphic lenses. So they don't actually know the limitations of these lenses as well as the pros because most normal lenses don't have that issue where they're just like the outer ring, you know, like it just captures whatever is within the range. But anamorphic doesn't.

It's a very specific and it squishes the image. So you need to pull the image. It's like, do you find that like fascinating when you look at camera stuff? Absolutely. Like, you know, that's, that's one of the major things that I love about anamorphic as well and like again, with, with when you're actually using the camera itself, like, you know, you've got that setting of that anamorphic D squeeze as well, because, you know, you can see, you can see that squeeze happening.

Like the moment you put the lens on and you watch the image, you're like, oh, okay. So I can actually see that I can physically see it. And then you put the apply the D squeeze and you're like, okay, now it actually looks a little bit more normal. I don't have like this squished image. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's like a so bizarre as well. I mean, like it's because if I were to ask you what your favorite camera and, and like particularly, what is your favorite camera?

I'd be very biased, unfortunately with, with the, um, Alexis, I love the Alexis. I think that the color science is just beautiful. Um, and they're also, you know, just so user friendly, which is just so key as a camera assistant as well is just, you know, I, you know, when I'm formatting cards or so on, you know, I want it to be quite quick and easy to do.

So, you know, that's sort of my only, you know, issue that I kind of have with the Sony's as well as that, you know, there's often a menu, but then there's a deep menu as well that you've got to, you know, navigate through. So you know, as long as you've got the time on set to be able to do that, that's great. But you know, if you're in a real quick hurry, you're like, I can't always keep going right through to the deep menu all the time.

You know, it's generally, you know, for, if you're doing something a little bit more technical with the camera, but yeah, it's, you know, I really like the Alexis and their format in terms of just, it's very, it's very simple to use. Yeah. And that's what we need on set is, you know, quick and easy. Yeah. Quick and easy, get to the point straight away. Yeah. Cause I mean like you look at major productions and, and time, you know, that little saying time is money.

Yes. I get, get back to say it's, it's not a, I remember in like school, I used to think that was a really bad saying, but it actually makes a lot of sense because the faster you get stuff done, the quicker everyone can go home. Exactly. Like it's so true. It's so true. And there's, I think, um, do you ever feel like you've been on set where you're just like, this day has taken longer than actually necessary and well without of your control? Yeah, definitely.

You know, there are, there are days where like, you know, we've, we've got nine and a half to 10 minutes, you know, of scheduled time, like scheduled screen time that we've got to get in the bag. And you know, that's a very, it's, you know, it's not impossible, but it's very ambitious. Like it's especially, you know, if you're working with kids or something like that as well, you've got to take all of these things into account.

Um, and I find that like, unfortunately there's a lot of Australian TV shows and everything that the, the scheduling is getting tighter and tighter and the budgets are getting tighter and tighter as well. So it's starting to, you know, put stress on, you know, all of us as a crew and everything. So our days do typically sometimes get a little bit longer than what they should be as well. And it's just because we've just got so much to do in a day.

And then, you know, gets to, you know, near when we should be wrapping the like, okay, you know, we're going to ask for an hours over time and is everybody okay with that? And a lot of the time we're like, yeah, okay. You know, it's cause most of the time we're like, well, if, if we don't do that scene now it's going to get pushed to another day and then they could just ask for overtime on that day as well. Yeah. So, yeah.

So it's, you know, there's definitely days where it will come across as being like, you know, quite a long, long day, but you know, I've, I've been very surprised. Like the latest show that I've been on was actually a kids TV show. And we were like the first block who were doing nine and a half to 10 minutes a day and we were actually getting it in the bag with very minimal overtime. Like, you know, we'd be getting it with, you know, maybe only 15 minutes extra, like minutes over time.

So it's, it was very, very surprising to actually see that. And that's really good schedule. That's what it is. I mean, it's down to good producing, good scheduling and good first ideas, which you know, and, um, you know, kudos to many first ideas who know how to schedule stuff to us.

Yeah. To a T. Um, I've been, I definitely like, I think with sets as well, it's one of those environments that you know, like I always say when you run over or you, you know, like everything is over and I know I have it in my contract because I work full time and I know I have my contract because I do shift work.

They do say if anything happens and we need you to stay back at last minute, you know, we have the ability to, you know, what I can obviously will pay you, but it's, it's kind of like, you can't, you know, we'll ask, but it's not kind of like you can refuse. No, that's exactly right. Yes. It's the same principle. Yes. Yes. That's true. Like, you know, I've only really had it on, you know, a few circumstances where, you know, it's a Saturday and you know, it was also working with kids as well.

Again, you know, it's first of all, not great that, you know, these kids have got to work on a Saturday and they should have a life too. But yeah, it's, you know, that was, that was a day where like, you know, on the Friday, like we'd heard that they were going to ask for overtime on the Saturday and everyone was like, no, like we've all got lives.

You know, there are, there are, you know, gaffers and first ACs and so on that, you know, older than me have kids and so on and want to go home to them, of course. So, you know, that's, that's when we would, you know, arc up and say, Hey, you know, no, we're not going to do overtime on Saturday because, you know, we've got lives too. Absolutely. I mean, like, and that's kind of my mentality as well. It's like, you know, you do have a life outside of work.

Yes. And whether it's your hobby or your interest, like you've got to also respect other people's time. Yes. I mean, like it's interesting as well, cause I think about unions and I always think about like how unions are meant to protect us. And I'm very much like, are meant to because not all unions do. But like if you do enough research, there was a lot of unions out there. There was a lot of like, I was crew, you know, the MEAA. Yes. MEAA. I always used to say MEAA.

I don't know why, cause it's the way it's written and it just like blows my mind. Yeah. And you know, I think protecting people, they do a good job, but I mean, as a country, we don't have a strong union unions. Like we don't have it like Europe does where, you know, back in the day, if it was 5pm, they'd switch off the lights, regardless of how much time, like overtime. They don't do that here. Like we don't have that ability to be like, all right, that's it. We're all gone home today.

But we've got like three hours to go. No, no union says we're done. Yeah. Like that's in our contract as part of the union done. Like we don't have that. No, no. We're very different in how we approach work. And I think that's when we kind of feel like we're overworked. Yes. Yes. Which happens, I guess more from the less, you know, like if you're at the top tier, it kind of happens to all the people there. Yes, it does. It's a, it's a domino effect. It just kind of keeps passing down the chain.

And then unfortunately, you know, the crew kind of gets a bit stitched up with that kind of thing as well. And you know, like turnarounds is such a big thing too. Like, you know, I always, you know, feel awful for the unit department because they, you know, they're the first ones there and they're always the last ones to leave. And they're the most at risk for breaking their turnarounds as well.

And unfortunately, like I've seen it happen too often and then that's when fatigue comes into things as well. So it's, you know, it's not only just the, you know, like key departments like sound and so on, but it's just like, you know, unit, they're essentially the people who, you know, keep us alive on set, you know, with making sure that we've got, you know, obviously amenities, we've got coffee, we've got all of those kinds of things. Like they are really the backbone to keeping us all sane.

I do like that you use the word sane. It's so true. I mean, and it is kind of appalling that we still kind of work in an industry where that is the ability to overwork is. And I remember I was told this when I was 21, like pretty early on actually in my life, I had a family friend who was an editor and she just went, if you want to have a family, don't work in this industry. Basically was 101 and she was in her late 40s, early 50s at the time.

I thought about that long and hard and I do want to have a family that is like a definite, but I do think that there is part of me that goes, God damn, this industry does not benefit, especially, you know, still to this day, women who want to have kids like maternity leave is better. But in terms of like long term, you know, I know a few friends who've like come back for casual work and that's fine.

But others who have been completely dropped by the industry for various reasons, like is that something that you kind of go, oh God about this industry and worrying about it? Yeah, a little bit. I feel like, I think it was one of the first jobs that I actually did and we just wrapped the job and the director came up to me and like she was a female director as well and she said, oh, you know, I can see that you're, you know, very driven and you do want to go far in this industry.

And I said, yes, that's correct. And she said, well, do you want to have the family as well? And I said, yes, I, you know, ideally I would love to have a family. She said, just be very careful and very aware that as you're going along in the industry, you know, you're, you're going to have times where like you don't often have time to, you know, to prioritize that side of things as well.

And you know, so she went on to like say, you know, the difficulties that she's had just as a, you know, as a director as well, that, you know, trying to keep track of, you know, where your kids are at during the day while you're at work and that kind of thing. So, you know, it's, it's definitely, um, a bit of big thing for me to, to consider. Definitely.

Yes. I like it's, it's one of those things that I think, um, you, you kind of want that separation, especially for your kids, um, do have like, and also not wonder where you, you know, your parents are 24 seven, like going home. Yeah. Oh, they're working overtime again. I guess I'm with the babysitter. Like there is a lot of that where it's like the industry is a little bit more like, okay, we do have families. We do have small kids. We need to go home to those kids.

Like we're paying the babysitter by like the hour or my mom's got a concert tonight and she's looking after the kids. So I've got to be home by this hour. Oh, we call them to overtime. Cool. I guess they're not going to do anything. And it's like, you know, all these things that weigh up and I, you know, I think of it, uh, we're not saving lives. There's this running. Exactly.

That is like the most common saying, you know, what I also love, and this is when I know it's, it's a good production is when they, these situations happens where they go, okay, we're not going to do overtime. We're just going to rewrite a same for later. And they use material and then rewrite it so it fits into another episode or another scene later down the track at a completely different location. So they're like, cool. All right. That might be useful.

That's happened so many times in productions where rewrites happen during filming and because of logistical errors or just they've run out of time at a scene or the quotient is gone. We can't film there anymore. So you're going to have to film it somewhere else. And, um, that does happen. It saves time. Yeah, it does. It's, it means people don't get overworked sometimes.

Um, especially if you're on location and particularly if you're booked for a week on this remote location and suddenly everyone goes, oh, we missed a scene crap. Um, can't, we don't have time to film it. Can't get an extra day here. Let's go and film it somewhere else. That is completely like it's long as it still has the same feeling and the same meaning and it doesn't look jarring in the film. Yes. Or in the show may as well do it there.

Yeah. Yeah. You'd be surprised with how many sort of cheats you can do here and there, especially like, you know, I've had it, you know, probably not so much as, you know, like whole scenes before, but in terms of, um, like, you know, being able to, like, if it's an insert on a laptop or something like that, most of the time you can work around that and have a different, um, a completely different location that you're at, but work it around and have the lighting exactly the way you need it.

Um, so that you can, you can actually do that shot elsewhere as well. So it's, you know, you're getting the key parts of the scene where you actually have to be. And then as soon as it comes to actually picking up the little, the little bits and pieces here and there, it's, it's a lot simpler doing it that way as well. So yeah, it just, again, it saves time.

It's, it's also like editing is your friend and as speaking as someone who's edited quite a bit now, it's, it does get you out of jail so quickly when you work around an edit. And it's why I love people who think outside the box and people, you know, like DOPs or camera operators or anything like that, who think outside the box and they know what they can cheat and what we can get around.

Because it makes everyone 10 times better to be like, cool, you know, cause there's nothing worse than someone who just doesn't care and doesn't want, and is very rigid in their instructions of what they want to do. Yeah. Well, I think it's also so key with, um, really good first ADs as well that often they're always thinking of ways, you know, how to get things done quite efficiently.

So if we're, if they're, you know, if it's raining or, you know, whatever we can't, um, control happens, you know, and it happens a lot, especially with La Nina this year as well. We've had so many, um, so many setbacks with rain and everything as well. So the director will always be, you know, trying to go, okay, well, what can I do next? And the AD is always thinking going, okay, well, we can actually prioritize this and we can bring this forward and we can do, you know, there's, there's.

There's such a, you know, I have such an appreciation for the ADs department because that's, you know, there, there was often a lot of rescheduling that goes on that we don't see. Yeah. As the crew, like, you know, we know that it happens, but in terms of actually seeing, you know, how we reschedule and everything, it's, it's pretty amazing.

Yeah. I mean, like, does that, did that blow, when you, when you first went to set and your first ever set, like, you know, paid experience with that, like the experience, like what was that a very stressful kind of first day? It definitely was because, you know, coming from film school and going onto a professional set is just, it's such a different world. It is so different. There are so many unwritten rules that, you know, I didn't know, you know, coming, coming into a professional set.

So, you know, a student film is just so much more relaxed and, you know, there's not, you know, not a huge crazy time constraints. I guess they're definitely, you know, they'll obviously try to get everything done that they need to get done, but it's not as, it's not as critical. Yeah. So, you know, coming onto a, you know, a professional set, I'm, I'm like, oh my goodness, like, there is so much to think about, so much to do.

You're always prioritizing, like, you know, especially once you, once you get into camera department and you're doing like the video split role, which is generally, you know, your starting role in the camera department, like you're always prioritizing about where the split's going to go and making sure that the director always has picture and, you know, and then it's all the other behind the scenes stuff as well, you know, keeping the camera

department functioning with water and coffee and all of these, you know, there, there's just so many more things that are involved with it. So definitely it was a big, you know, not really a shock, but just more like a, well, okay, you know, this is a lot more involved. Yeah. Then you initially, yes, yes. Coming from a student set to that totally different. Yeah, it really is. And, and expectation like very different. And I think like that's really interesting as well.

And I like that, you know, if for anyone who doesn't know what split is, I think we use terminology here that, you know, not everyone would understand what that is, but it generally split is like a monitor or at least vision for the directors. Yes. So they can see. And it's very important. It's very important that the director sees what they're filming. So they can critique it. But I do remember, I think my first ever set experience and it was like, I just, I was such a novice.

I remember, I did, and it was a student set. Like it was like, you know, 18 years old I was, and I went to this, afters thing and they had this, you know, they wanted someone be doing a volunteer role for behind the scenes.

They hadn't really told the director, which I think was the producers had not really done their job by informing everyone on the set that there would be someone doing behind the scenes or really kind of, I think if they thought it was a nice idea, I think it was a very last minute thought and they were like, this would be fun. And I think the school kind of said, this would be a nice idea as well.

So it was kind of like tacked on and I rocked up and I remember like they were doing all these rehearsals and I was like, perfect. You know what the opportunity is? I'll grab my camera. I'll go and film the camera coming down the hallway and seeing what it's like from the other side. And I was told to get out of shot. I was like, oh no. And it was, they were just doing a rehearsal. It was fine. But the director just didn't want me in shot as any kind of distraction.

And at the time I thought, oh God, she hates me. But now 10 years later, 10, 20, 10, 12 years later, I think about it and I just go, nah, she was just like really hyper-focused in what was going on. And the last thing you want is someone who's new to a set, kind of distracting you and you have to constantly keep an eye on so that they don't get in trouble or danger.

And but yeah, I mean like the, I remember the data wrangler was one of the nicest people and he took me in and showed me how to data wrangle like old film. And I was like, this is so cool. So I did learn a lot about that experience, what to do on a set and what not to do. Also not what to do. Don't look like you're not doing anything. Yes, exactly. Regardless of you're not, don't look like you're doing nothing. Always stand to attention.

Yes. Well, you know, one, one of the camera assistants that I've sort of worked alongside of at one point she had a saying of like, you know, if you've got time to lean, you've got time to clean. So, you know, for me that's, you know, as a camera assistant as well, I'm like, okay, well, what can I clean with the camera? Is there any dust on any of the fans? Is there, you know, so I'm always trying to like think of ways. To, to maximize that time.

If I have any downtime, which you know, is depending on what camera is playing, like if there's a steady cam shot and if I'm not the camera assistant for the steady cam, then I'll obviously try and make sure and go, okay, well, you know, I could clear some rushes in the meantime. I could, you know, clean the camera. I can clean the monitors.

There's, there's so many different things that I can keep myself occupied with and obviously cleaning the lenses as well and making sure that there's no dust visible on the top of them or no, you know, fingerprints or marks or, you know, those kinds of things. So there's, you know, I'm often trying to maximize that time as much as possible. So especially if there's also, you know, additional gear that's got to come in as well.

So I'm always talking and organizing with, you know, runners and production and so on. And, you know, just a lot of things goes, you know, goes on sort of while I'm not sliding a camera and while I'm not changing lenses and so on. So I'm often, I'm always busy. Yeah. You can't really sit, sit still and it's kind of a luxury that you have on student sets or short films or anything low budget because there's more like, but it's also my pet peeve. It is literally a pet peeve.

I don't care if you're on a short film or on a low budget set, never just sit there in your phone. Yes. It pisses me off to the nth degree. It's one of the first things that I actually teach, like, you know, juniors coming into the camera department as well as like, you know, don't be on your phone. Like it's such an important thing.

Like, you know, we've got, we've usually got viewer that we use to, you know, stream the actual, you know, the video as well of what we're actually, what the cameras are seeing as well. So I'm like, yes, you can be checking that, making sure it's working, but if you're not doing that, don't be on your phone.

Yeah. So, and I also like explain to them as well, like when I'm an A camera assistant, generally like I'm also trying to like, you know, message production in the meantime and organize things for later. So I said, look, you know, I may be on my phone, but I'm actually doing work on my phone and unfortunately like it's, it's the part of the job that I probably don't like as much. I don't like being on my phone, like, because it kind of detracts from me actually being on set as well.

So often, you know, if I do have a shot off or something like that, because you know, steady cams playing or so on, or if it's only a single camera, then yes, that's sort of my time that I take to, to do messaging and to do those things. So that, you know, I'm not trying to do it in between when I'm actually busy on set. So yeah.

Yeah. Which is, you know, cause I mean, I, I just think that, you know, especially when you've got people, you know, high profile people coming in and producers who sometimes are the ones who are the ones paying you. Yes, that's right. You know, sometimes the producers will hover on, on set and you know, again, that's when I sort of brief the juniors and go, okay, we've got producers on set. Let's just, you know, keep it really professional. Yeah. You know, be as on top of things as possible.

Let's make sure that the splits always got power. It's always got an image. You know, we're not waiting for, you know, for picture or something like that. Yeah. And I mean, like because one of the, you know, we talk about professionalism in sort of a blanket term, but it is also just like, you know, it's not standing into attention, but it's just being a hyper aware of everything that's going around you and being like, if someone, if you don't need to talk, don't talk kind of thing.

Just, just be quiet. Yeah. Um, and that's, that's also another thing that I teach, like the younger ones coming into camera department as well is, you know, like, and this will generally only come over time, but it's also, um, it's also watching the set and, you know, viewing it as a big piece of information. Yeah. There's, there's a lot going on. There's a lot happening and you can learn and understand a lot from what is happening as well.

So that's why I, you know, once we're a couple of weeks into the actual shoot and I've got them to, you know, understand the split itself and how to, you know, how to operate it and so on. Then that's when I start going, okay, be aware of your surroundings and start looking at the blocking, you know, the, it's such a important time.

Yeah. And then I start doing line reading, everything that happens and then going, okay, well, you can, you can actually see that and you can actually understand where the cameras are going to go after that as well. So in terms of, you know, rather than coming up to me and being like, Oh, where, where can I put the split? You know, you can watch the block and you can understand, okay, one camera is going to look that way. One camera is going to look the other way. Safe is over this way.

Yeah. So it's, you know, it's stuff that starts informing, you know, informing that person's knowledge. Yeah. Which you need to like, I think it's always good practice as well. And, and to just have like that, that is to knowledge as well to what, what things do and how to be the best on the best you can be on set.

Yeah. Um, because yeah, like I think even if you're in a volunteer capacity, it's just, it's good practice, um, to, but I mean, I think also just, you know, I think a lot of the time also the biggest stress of being on, you know, when you're new to the industry and you know, people are telling you, and I often find it very interesting because, um, I've, I've taught people particularly my own age about, you know, who have never worked in the industry

about industry standard things and you know, just, I think you, you get to a point where you don't want to sound like a dick. Yes. You don't want to keep repeating yourself as well, though. You're kind of like, please learn this because if you haven't, then you're going to actually start getting people annoyed at you because they will, everyone has this point.

And I remember a great teacher taught me once he said, um, and he, like everyone used to think this guy was an asshole, but he was so good at his job and he was very, and he, and he said to me, don't lie to me. If you don't understand something, just tell me, but don't try and fake it. Otherwise I will not teach you. Exactly. I was like, learn from the get-go. And I'm the same principle. If you lie to me, I will not have time for it. I'm just like, no, you're on your own then.

And, or if you don't try, I don't also have time. Like give it a shot. Um, cause there's so many ways to work around situations and problems.

And I think also because predominantly I work in such a triage heavy job, um, that it's, it's quick thinking, fast reacting time that if you don't have that ability and you get stressed easily, like you probably shouldn't be in the job because you can't get stressed in and you can't take things personally because nine times out of 10, someone's going to yell and because they've had a bad day. And while that behavior is not acceptable, it's still not a personal attack.

No, they just got pressures from somewhere else that they don't know how to deal with and vent with. So it just, it filters down.

Yeah. And I think that that then comes to the other side of the coin where a lot of new people come in and they get hypersensitive about things or they get super worried or they go, or they start going, Oh, everyone's, you know, like I know the, the feeling of when it's downtime at work, we do have the ability to be on our phones and it's less stress because we are in an office where we are doing day in, day out 24 seven shifts. So we do have downtime and, but we are also working.

So it's not exactly, but when we're training people and people see that and they're like, Oh, these people are on their phones. So I can be on it's like, no, as a trainee, you're not allowed to touch your phone. That is the last thing you touch. The last thing is you talk to your friends while you're in work hours. You put that phone in your bag. That is your job at this point. And then you are attentive to whatever's happening around you because you are learning.

And that is the, the people who are experts at this, like know how to react quickly to situations and not think, Oh, I'm just messaging, you know, my wife, I will get back to this emergency. It's like, no, this comes second. That comes first because that's the triage brain. But I've worked with so many people over the years that you kind of, you get to a point where you're like, I need to kind of beat it out of you.

And it's awful, but it's like when you come from student films and you don't understand that, um, being like on your phone is like a bad thing when you come to the professional industry, it's like, it is, it is just such a bad look when you're not attentive. And even like, because our, um, our camera sheets these days are more electronic as well.

So, um, so again, like I made sure that I went out and bought an iPad because again, I'm like, look, we can do the camera sheets on our phones, but I don't like being on my phone when I'm on set. So I'd rather not have that look, even though I'm, I'm doing the camera sheet, but I'd rather just, you know, actually have the iPad in front of me as well. Yeah, absolutely.

And I think then, you know, like when you're scheduling, when you're looking at, you know, a thousand emails, you know, and cyphering, it is better to have something a bit more robust than your tiny phone going, can I read that right now in a dark room and no, actually like this bright light sort of suddenly detracts from everything around you. And you're like, I'd rather have a tablet that I can turn down the brightness, look at what's in front of me and look at it.

And then also, you know, like you say, have a split of the camera feed that I can look at to refer to and then go back and write down notes. And I love, like, I remember the days when everything was paper. I miss the days when everything was... I mean, it was, it was wonderful.

And I did like the paper days, but I can understand how COVID's obviously changed that as well, because that was the main reason why we went to electronic is because, you know, us camera assistants would be, you know, touching the camera sheets and so on, and then it would go to post and then they would have to touch the sheets and all of that kind of thing. So it's, you know, it, I made like it under, sorry.

It makes sense that we've gone to electronic sheets and you know, now that I've used them for so many jobs as well, it makes sense. And I really enjoy using the electronic sheets because I can just, you know, upload them like that to production. And it's just, it's done as soon as we wrap. So, you know, yes, paper sheets were very similar as well, but then, you know, you couldn't really pre-anticipate too much with it.

So you know, there was no such thing as auto-fill and all of those kind of things. And then, you know, if you started to like, you know, when I was doing paper sheets, like I would try not to write down any camera settings until we were actually rolling because again, during, during takes or like, you know, during, you know, you might do one take and then something changes on the camera, whether it's the exposure, like the DOP adjusts the exposure or they go up in ASA and that kind of thing.

So those things were changed. And then on paper sheets, you have to like cross that out. It starts to make the sheets look really messy. Whereas, you know, now on electronic sheets, you've just got the ability to just backspace it. Yeah. So you can sort of pre-auto fill things, but then you've got quick ability to be able to just change it and it's not messy or, you know, it doesn't make you look bad in front of poster.

I know. And I, I, I, a good camera shape and the less is a life saver, especially when you're dealing with multi-camera set up. It's really nice to know what each camera is doing. Yes. And it keeps everything consistent. Yes. And I'm also like, I try to describe the shot as best as possible as well. It's just so that if, if by any reason there is an error somewhere along the lines, the editor has got that ability to be able to go into the sheet. They know exactly what camera settings it was.

They know exactly what shot it was as well. You know, whether it was handheld or, you know, all of those kinds of things. I try to describe it as best as possible so that posts have that opportunity to know exactly what the shot is. There's no, you know, nothing's misconstrued along, along the way.

No, and it's the worst feeling in the world looking through an edit and not knowing where you're looking at and knowing which shots what and which scene it's for and going through the entirety of the thing and scratching your head and going, what am I doing with all this footage? Like what's the mission other than the script that I've got?

Yes. Yeah. Like, cause that's the thing I feel like people don't understand the importance of informing the editor of all the information as well, because they generally don't see the production. They have never been on set. So they're looking at everything from a separate point of view. Yeah. From a screen. Yeah. And then they're going, Oh, is this shot meant to be here? Is this shot meant to be here?

Like, and then the camera notes are literally just, and the continuity notes and everything will go to the post and then the editor can flick through all these notes and go, cool. Okay. That's for that. Yeah. I can, I can start and they often, I think also people that understand as an editor has a generally has an assistant unless it's on a low budget, in which case they are their own assistant.

Yes. And the assistant generally goes and labels everything from the original card label, as well as the camera assistance sometimes in the data wranglers do. Generally, I think it's like second AC can data wrangle as well. Yes. And they'll label everything so that by the time it goes to the editor, a lot of that is saved and they know what the data is, what it's telling them, you know, what file formats it is all in.

And a lot of the time, like I found this out recently, because I predominantly edit Premiere Pro. Yes. Great software. It's become more of an industry standard now than it used to be. It used to be considered a very independent indie film, but I think because of the sellability of it now and its upgradability, it's so useful and user friendly. Yes. That's a lifesaver.

But I found out my laptop now that it's 2015 has maxed out at 2019 version of Premiere Pro and cannot see some codecs that I'm very sad about. So I won't register Apple ProRes like certain files and it makes me hurt inside. So I have to upgrade my laptop, unfortunately, to kind of get a lot of the new files, but that's how quickly, you know, that's only a space of what, seven years? Yeah. And codecs and file formats are changing so rapidly.

Yeah. And the scope of things that I think, you know, like Apple ProRes files, I actually like a lot. They're very useful and user friendly, but also I love the ability that Premiere has where you can flick through, you know, like the camera LUT settings and what like actually it's doing. So it has a little mini tab inside it. And if you go to the actual footage, you can flick through what setting it is. So then you can grade it.

Cause generally what people, if you don't see it, you'll just see it in it. It's sort of like, I remember once I used to think, oh, this shot's really overexposed. No, you're just looking through a non-LUT setting. Yes. And generally the camera will just do what it normally thinks and then go, this is too bright, this too dark. Cool. That's what I'm going to show you as.

And then the LUT has such a high dynamic range that you can pull all that information out and do whatever you want with it and fix it. And it's funny because when you don't understand those principles, you think, God, the footage is ruined. Yes. Oh goodness. And it's the biggest stress. And I think I remember when I was very young looking at footage and going crap, everything sucks and it all looks terrible.

Now as an adult and understanding how cameras work, your high dynamic range and the same principle now happens and applies to audio. Audio has a massive range now than it used to where you'd only be able to record things in 16 bit, very shallow and then peak distortion in the analog days would happen very easily. And now we've got the wonderful world of digital distortion, which is a whole other kettle of fish.

But then the same thing of having, if you didn't have your camera settings to the correct settings, it would be very noticeable. Yes. And I think nowadays like high dynamic range does have the ability to, you know, fix a lot of your learning abilities. It does teach you very quickly. You can fix white balance very easily in post a lot more than you used to be able to, where it was like stuck to a certain way.

But I have still been on some student sets where they don't understand what log is, or they think that fixing your camera to the camera settings is better than going to the log settings. I'm like, no, always go to raw log format because it, it gives you all of that information. Yeah. It gives you all of it. And then you've got the option to actually play with it as well. So, cause I remember when I first got my camera, I didn't realise it wasn't just set to JPEG.

So I got all these JPEG images back and I was like, well, I can't do anything with these. Like I've got bugger all I can do. And then suddenly you discover in the sub menu and it was a Canon camera. I was like still learning it's a, um, uh, Mark four, five day great camera. I still use it to this day, but I did have to go like when I first started using it into the backend and go, Oh, there's a setting to get raw as well.

And it has a few settings and you can get more exclusively and I choose to get raw and JPEG. So I have a lower format and I can send, generally send that to people so they can look at the files while I'm editing them. And go, okay, well I've got the Canon raw file so I can just play around with these. But at least the people have got the unedited versions and I can just scan through whatever they like. Um, but yeah, like a lot of people just don't look at your sub settings.

Like we say, where it's like, you've got all these like, um, you know, but I mean, also when you're in a, you know, like what's it, what's a horror experience that you had on a short film when you were doing that, you were just like, this is not how you deal with a camera like settings or you just like had this overwhelming like all anxiety about it.

It wouldn't, it wouldn't probably be too much about the actual camera settings per se, but it was, it was again, back towards the scheduling side of things that yes, it was, um, I had a horror story from one that was in, um, Newcastle. So we'd all traveled up to Newcastle and yeah, there was a, you know, a young director on that and, um, yeah, we just had to, while we were actually filming the short film itself, it was just, it was taking way too long.

Um, there was, uh, a lot of shots that kind of came spontaneity, like on spontaneity and it wasn't like, it wasn't planned stuff. So, and it was a night shoot as well. So, you know, we've only just started in, you know, late afternoon and we're going to be working into the long hours of the night and it, um, just the real lack of planning of shot listing and everything. Like you just, you underestimate how important that is.

And yeah, so it, it basically, it blew over into, you know, we only finished at four o'clock or five o'clock in the morning and you know, we were all exhausted. Everyone's tired. The camera department, which, you know, like I was in as well. So we had like a DOP and then one of my good friends that was a camera assistant as well.

And we were all just like, we basically spent the next day, like, you know, went back to bed, you know, crashed out for ages and then spent the next day, like re-shot listing, like this entire short film because it was just taking so long to try and get the coverage and to get everything that we actually needed as opposed to just things that were, you know, on the spontaneous moments like, oh, we could get this shot, we could get that.

And you know, it starts to throw things right out the window, especially when you're doing a night shoot and everybody's tired and we were sort of in a remote-ish location as well. So in terms of actually getting food for everybody, that was about like 25 minutes away. So, you know, we'd have to wait, you know, quite a decent time to actually get some form of sustenance for the crew.

So, you know, it was just a very interesting experience that, you know, you underestimate how important that kind of thing is. Yeah. And yeah, like, you know, like at least we had someone who was quite professional behind the camera as well. So he also had a lot of good ideas with how we could speed things up. And then as a camera team, we sort of worked together to re-shot list this entire film and it was just, yeah, it was very interesting. Oh my God. I do not envy you.

No, no. But that reminds me of like many horror stories when I was younger of trying to do shorts and just like learning as you go. I don't think anyone teaches you that when you're making stuff young as well, like when you're doing like short films or you're doing like stuff like that. And I've worked with some great DOPs and some not great DOPs, it really depends, it fluctuates.

But I do remember being on one set and I'm still good friends with all the actors and crew and like minus the DOP, which was the only person who I was like, yeah. But I remember particularly, yeah, a lot of the shots were decided by them on the day and they didn't agree initially with what the shots I wanted.

And I think that was where a lot of the production woes happened and a lot of it just ended up, we originally were going to do both days of the weekend and then it was only one day and then we were like, okay, well, let's reschedule. And then all the actors were like, well, we can't because we've got like other things going on and it's like, well, that's a nightmare. And it became, I remember I got to the end of the day and I was like, I've shot nothing that I actually wanted to shot.

What I've shot, what we've ended up shooting was like five different things that were unrelated and terrible. And I remember we went even into overtime, like we were going and I remember I had to call like quit for the day because I was like, I'm tired. All the actors are tired. No one cares anymore. And what has actually happened is you've just not listened, unfortunately, to anything that anyone actually wanted and have gone on a whim hoping that it might fall together.

And I was like, not happy with the results. So I definitely think that, and I've definitely watched a lot of short films as well where it's like, sometimes it is logistically down to the camera side of the department or the sound side of the department or anything that, or there's just like producer or director or whatever. But it's one of those things that when it all comes together, it all works really well.

And I've worked with some amazing DOPs who have thought very much outside their box and like collaborating, but then I've worked with others who would like very much not enjoy any of that process. No, not at all. And I'm like, oh, okay. Tell me what you want out of it. Because you've got to meet in the middle when you're a director or a camera operator or something and you've got to find this mid ground, whether it's a big production or an independent film, you've got to find like something.

But I do agree with you with short films in particular. And it's not all the case. It's not, you know, whether it depends on the film, but I think some of them are less, I want to say less well thought out than others. And the ones that are like phenomenally thought out, you know, and it can't be, it's not always down to the script. Sometimes the script is great and what you see on screen is terrible. Yes, sometimes.

Like, and that's through just translation of, but I mean, it's kind of like that blanket slate of you can't blame just every, you know, you can't be like, it's the entire cruise fault because it's just so many components to what actually there's a lot that goes into it. Yeah. And like, yeah, just the horror stories that I think about, like, and it's always every day is a learning day. That's what I say. Every day you're learning something new.

Like, I remember like, you know, 2018 me is not the same as now. And that's four years different. And you know what works and what doesn't and kind of go, okay, well, what can I challenge myself on to make this product worthwhile?

But I've definitely also, I think, and I don't know if you agree with this, but I definitely think there are some people like we're both very driven people, but I think in some people in this industry think that drive and being, you know, you know, efficient and good at your job or enjoying it is very different to what, you know, like is to have being the big glory, you know, big leagues and stuff like that.

And I think, yeah, obviously everyone's a big break and stuff, but I think that's the underside of what actually being driven is because being driven and engaged in your work means you're enjoying in the ability and you wanting to continually learn. Whereas I think if you're trying to get to a point where you're top tier big leagues, that's not really our direction. It's a lot about challenging yourself and it's a lot about the actual journey itself.

Like it's very, you know, like I'm just incredibly thankful for those around me as well for giving me the opportunities that we have to. So, you know, that one, that's certainly something that I don't try to lose track of all the time. I'm always trying to up the ante with what I'm doing as well, like physically on set, making sure that I'm really, really on top of things.

And obviously keeping an eye on my team as well, making sure that they're okay too, because it's just, it's so important to look out for your team. Like if someone's tired or just, you know, if they've got, you know, personal things going on or something, you know, just always looking out for them and going, okay, like are you actually okay? And so on.

And yeah, like obviously just what I was saying about like challenging yourself as well, like, you know, you don't want to, you don't want to stay in a particular, you know, zone in terms of, you know, like your career for too long because, you know, otherwise then it will just sort of, it will become a bit too repeat. Yeah. So for me, I try to always like challenge myself and be like, okay, for this next job, what can I do better? What can I try to improve on?

And, you know, I talk to colleagues as well and just say, look, you know, how can we make this more efficient and so on? Like, especially because it's just so important these days with the time constraints that we've got and all of that kind of thing to just be very efficient. So I'm always trying to work on, you know, how we can be, you know, as, you know, efficient as possible as a camera tech. Yeah. Yeah. Cause is your main career goal?

Like, cause I'm, I imagine this has asked quite a fair bit of what a career goal for camera assist is, but is your main career goal then to become a DOP? I definitely would like to definitely would love to operate at some point as well. And then, you know, eventually DOP, but it's, it's, it's not something that I mean, a rush to get towards.

Like I'm quite content with being a camera assistant for, you know, for quite some time and you know, quite happy to, you know, work alongside of, you know, like I've been very fortunate to have worked alongside of so many amazing DOPs. So just, you know, now that I'm getting more and more used to camera assisting, I'm starting to find a little bit more time on set to just observe what the DOP is actually doing and the choices that they're making with how they light things as well.

So I'm trying to always be a little bit more aware of that side of thing. And then trying to also ask questions every now and then not necessarily on set, but I might try and think of a question, type it out in an email and then just send it a bit later because you know, on set everything's, you know, the DOP is always just, you know, on all the time thinking about, you know, the next setup, the next lighting, you know, the next way that they're going to light and so on.

So there's so much that they're thinking about in time. So you know, again, it's, you know, I want to learn things as well, but you know, not right in that moment where they're, you know, they're busy. Yeah, no, and that's entirely, entirely fair. I mean, and also like this industry is becoming very much like there's a huge female camera team now. Yeah, massively even compared to probably when we were at uni. Yeah, it's so true.

Does that inspire you as well to be sort of like, you know, as a woman going into this industry? Yeah, absolutely. It certainly does inspire me.

And it also, you know, especially now that I'm up to like being an a camera assistant, like I've got a little bit more opportunity to, to recruit people, you know, recruit different people as well in terms of, you know, when we get an attachment on board, you know, often it's not often my choice, but I can obviously be like, Hey, you know, I've heard of this person through afters or that kind of thing.

There's, you know, so many different ways that we can, you know, bring, you know, not just females, but also non-binaries and everybody into it as well and give, give people opportunities. So because, you know, it was, you know, traditionally back in the day, it was very, very, you know, boys club kind of industry. So I'm really happy to see that there is this transition happening.

And it's also like with the ACS, the recent ACS study that they did as well, the lens, I think it was lens wide open thing, something like that, a wider lens. I think that's what it was. So the study had a lot of, um, surprising statistics, but also sometimes not surprising as well, because, you know, in terms of there not being any indigenous DOPs, like not many indigenous women DOPs out there as well.

Like, you know, so, you know, when I looked at the stats actually presented in front of me, I'm like, okay, well like, you know, this is shocking, but it's also not surprising because I literally, I haven't seen an indigenous female DOP on set. So, you know, there, there are things that certainly did rock me and we're sort of like, wow, this is really horrible to see that, you know, especially with major feature films as well. You know, there's not many female DOPs out there.

You know, there's Mandy Walker, um, and she's done such an amazing job as well. Um, but it's just in terms of female DOPs getting that offer to work on huge major feature films. It's very rare and it's, and it's sad. It is as well. And I like, you know, I think that we are going into a very forward era more so now when, you know, like, um, you know, going forward.

And I think it's also like a strong belief of mine where it's like given, give, you know, people, um, you know, of, um, you know, non-binary gender fluid, like, you know, and, and women an opportunity to work in tech roles that are much more, you know, like, and branch out that opportunity for these people to have opportunities that might not have happened in a white cis male kind of environment, which was very much the industry like 15 years ago

or 10 years ago, because it's like, I definitely think that we, we, we walk this fine line especially and you know, like I've worked under management that if you know, said, oh, if women get pregnant, it's a big burden when they take maternity leave and all that stuff. And it's just, or, you know, like they specifically avoid people of, you know, the LGBTQIA plus community and, you know, be like, no, I don't want to deal with something that's uncomfortable

to me. And it's like, but that's progression. Like, yeah, that's just, that's right. That's all part of it. Yeah. You've got to allow these people opportunities and a lot, you

know, and it's the same with like, you know, hiring just white people. Like, yeah, it's just constantly, um, a big, a big thing, but I, I, I've always like, and I've always thought about this every majority of the sets I've worked in on, um, you know, whether it's, uh, my inset or quite a few others, um, have either been very LGBT, um, friendly or, um,

also just very women centric. Like there's a lot of women on set, which is honestly the nicest thing because I think it's such a, for me, it's such a high school thing where I like, I like, you know, I like having women on set and I like having people on set who are just very forward thinking. Um, and I just find it very easy to work with women as well, but I think on other sets, um, it's yeah. You know, when I just see a very straight

white man, I'm like, I don't know what to do with half of you. Like, because you're all like weird and uncomfortable with anything different. And that's not to say that all straight men are like that, but there is a lot. I've worked with a lot of like very, uh, straight men who just don't know what to do with like power thrown elsewhere. Yes.

Um, yeah, well, I definitely, you know, when I first, um, became a member of the ACS and went to one of the, um, the meetings as well, like it was like, um, and it was brought up in the wider lens report as well that one of the cinematographers that they interviewed, like a female one, she said, look, it was very intimidating because, you know, a lot of the room was middle-aged white men. Yeah. So, and I experienced exactly the same thing

as well. I went in the room and went, wow, okay, there's, there's really not many women here, like not in a DOP perspective, not in a camera perspective, like at all. So, you know, certainly over the last few years, it's definitely changed a lot. And I've seen like

a lot of progression, which is just awesome. And, and that's why when, when I go onto set and I've got, you know, either, um, you know, LGBTQ, um, or a, um, like a female camera assistant as well, like a, like, you know, a young junior in our team, like I'm always trying to bring them up as best as I can and try and like, spend the time with them and actually go, okay, you know, this is how we do things in the camera department and so

on, because it's all, it's all part of this progression. And I think like some people get like a bit, um, lost in the aspect of like, oh, but they're, you know, competitors because you know, they're coming up in the camera department and that kind of thing. So there's, I kind of try to ignore that attitude and go, but this is part of the progression, you know, we need to actually give people opportunities to be able to come up in the

camera department as well. So, and that's, you know, that's why when I was, um, because I volunteered on the behind the scenes of this wider lens, um, report that the ACS did. So, um, you know, it's when I was chatting to some of the cinematographers that were,

that were part of it. Um, I said, look, you know, that's just everything's, you know, in terms of bringing up attachments through, through, uh, through films or TV shows or something like, it's all part of that progression of, you know, allowing more opportunity to more people.

Yeah. I mean, it's also like there's a lot of trial and tribulation as well in, you know, particularly that kind of side of the industry as well, when you're, you know, a person, um, you know, in the, um, queer community as well as like a woman, you know, going into this tech field because there's a lot of like, there's still controversy over it. Yes. Um, which is bizarre to me, like we live in 2022 and it's like, it should just be done.

Um, but I do think that, you know, going, going forward as well, it's like, you know, and I do know that like some of my friends, you know, specifically who work in tech fields try to avoid, you know, like having personal relations with anyone inside, particularly men in the industry. And also, um, particularly like it's very common, um, just for people

to date in the industry and avoid it. Um, so I think that's something that I always try and like, just sort of tell people it's like, it's good to have a life outside. Yes. Um, or date someone who isn't always in your role. Like it works for some, but like my partner is in the industry, but we work in very different roles and that makes life easier because then we don't sort of think about it and we have other interests that kind of

fuel it. But, um, I think that, yeah, some people have met and, and if it works for you, it works for you, but sometimes, you know, it can create weird scenarios on set because it's like, and I often used to think this said it like sometimes being on a set when close proximity to everyone can become a very incestuous, dangerous time. And you know, particularly it's mostly with the actors because that tends to be what actors like end up doing.

Um, but it's not always the case, but yeah, like there's a lot of, um, I think with crew and stuff, you know, you just kind of, um, like most of them are married or, you know, have families, but then a lot of the younger people sort of see it as opportunities to meet people and mingle and then, you know, and then experience like maybe dating and stuff like that. And I think that's always like an industry side that I remember, like

people talked about when I started in the industry, but I think is fading. Like, and people have more of a, like a modern and common lens to go, okay, cool. I'm going to sort of keep my distance. Yes. Like we do talk about it before, like, you know, how we spend a lot of time with each other and overtime. And that's what, where you fall into that pattern of going, well, I see this person every day. So why not? Yeah. Yeah, that's

right. And I like, so I definitely agree with it and it definitely works for some people here and there, but I definitely enjoy having, you know, like seeing other people that are, that are not in the industry and going, okay, well, like this kind of gives me a break from it, you know, cause like, especially when you're working with people a lot on set, it

kind of, it becomes a very family nature as well. Like, you know, especially, you know, not really the big feature jobs because there are just so many people in those jobs that, you know, sometimes you might email, but you'll never see them in real life. Yeah. Whereas TV shows and so on, like, you know, it becomes a very sort of family kind of, you know, a very family orientated kind of thing, because, you know, yes, you're, yes, you're, you know,

seeing them every single day. You know, they're your colleagues as well, but you, you know, you might not agree on particular things here and there. So again, it, you know, it creates that family kind of aspect. You want to work as a team, but you also, you also have your

differing opinions and, and that kind of thing as well. So it's, you know, it's, it's such a, I think it's such a wonderful thing sometimes like on set as well, when, you know, you can have such a close knit team and you can really enjoy each other's company, but just, you

know, as really good colleagues as well. Yeah. And like, do you find, do you find that like, you know, with, with like, because I remember when I was in the dating like field that explaining to people when you did, you dated people outside of the industry was a very difficult conversation. It definitely is like it still is. And I think like, unfortunately COVID kind of brought up like a very, you know, because of the singles bubble that they brought in and everything

as well. I think unfortunately the modern dating game is quite toxic nowadays that, you know, there's a lot of this hookup culture going on and it's just, it's, it's quite sad. And me trying to express to like another guy and just say, look, you know, this is my industry. This is sort of how we work. You know, the hours aren't always the best. And you know,

sometimes I'm tired on weekends. There's, you know, so sometimes I think it intimidates them a little bit because it's like, they're like, oh, you know, you don't, you don't always have time. And I'm like, yes, I don't always have time, but it doesn't mean that I want to like, you know, just, you know, do work and that's it. You know, it's such a, it's

such a, you know, a balance. That's why I cherish my weekends and, and so on, because you know, there it's just such an important, an important aspect to have such a balance when you are working on set, especially long forms. It can, it can get quite tiring and it can, you know, you can be doing, you know, consecutive night shoots as well. So it can really mess with your body clock, let alone everything else that's going on in your life.

So you know, that, that's certainly one thing that I've had, you know, sort of, you know, a lot of, you know, issues trying to be like, okay, you know, this is, this is how the industry rolls and unfortunately it's not a nine to five job, you know, as much as, as much as I loved having a nine to five job, you know, a few years ago when I used to work at LEMAC, I guess it was, you know, kind of in the industry, but it wasn't, it wasn't necessarily what

I wanted to do exactly. So, yeah, so moving forward, it was just a very, it's still a tough conversation trying to be like, look, you know, this is unfortunately just the way the industry is and I can't always control the hours, but I'll obviously do my best to sort of work around it. And yeah, so that, that's definitely been a tricky side. Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, I think my relationship before I started the industry and because

of the industry, I was like very, like it's a make or break relationship as well. And, um, you know, I was constantly tired. I was constantly fatigued and I, and I remember like when I, it's particularly when I was like doing, you know, my single years and I was going on, you know, the dating apps and trying to meet people. I remember I met a lot of people who did not get it. And they were like, Oh, so why do you want your alone

time? It's cause I'm tired. And I really just don't want to see people. And that's an entirely valid reason, but there is a side of, you know, when people don't work in the trade, they think you're ignoring them. And a lot of their own self anxieties can come out. And it's not like that at all. Like it's, you know, and when you sort of like, and my

parents to this day still do not get it. Like my mom, you know, has no idea what, like how I do my hours and she still goes and you know, it's like, Oh, you, you know, are you okay? And it's like, I'm tired. Oh, you're always tired. It's like, well, yes. Cause I do weird shifts. Yeah. Yeah. And I think I've also like sort of, you know, lost, um, prospective relationships

as well, because they've just been intimidated by the hours. Like, especially since, you know, like I'm now getting to the age where like, you know, people are starting to settle down and that kind of thing as well. So, you know, I think some guys kind of view it and be like, Oh, you know, so are you actually going to be home to look after the kids and

all of that kind of thing? And they kind of, I think they overthink it a little bit too much because it's like, well, you know, when it, when it actually comes to family time, then, you know, tools down, you know, make, make some time for it, you know, that kind of thing. Cause you know, like there's amazing cinematographers like Reed Marano that, you know, she was like, what, seven or eight months pregnant. She was still filming on set. Like,

yeah, she's just, she's doing it. She's just in there. She's in the moment. And then as soon as, you know, it actually came time to have the family as well. Like she made time for that. And, and, you know, I'd be very much the same as well that I'd actually be like, okay, well, you know, I want to actually make time for that as well, because it's, it's an important aspect to me. So, yeah,

I absolutely agree. And when like one of my coworkers has just gone on to paternity leave and, um, to help his wife out and like, he's just so excited because he's like, Oh, it's been time with my son and you know, actually be a dad. And I remember like, you know, that most of the people I work with who are great, great people. And yeah, when they go, you know, and the ones who don't have families absolutely love, you know, they've, they've

had their entire career, not having kids. And they're like, yeah, I'm great. Like I don't want kids and that's perfectly fine. But yeah, as someone, you know, like I'm like doing all the projects that I want to do while I'm young and I don't have kids. And the moment I have kids, the priority changes. And I just suddenly go, okay, well, my entire focus is on my family and everything unfortunately goes into the second category, which is, you

know, fine, but it does, it does make you reprioritize your entire life. Um, and I think that, you know, it doesn't work for everyone, but I think particularly for me, like I am such a family oriented person. I'm always very close with my family. Um, and I think that's what I've always tried to bring to like any project that I've ever done is family because I love reworking with people. Um, whether it's in a professional or nonprofessional

capacity, I love spending time with certain people and, um, getting to know them. And I think that's what's made particularly with, you know, whether my kids end up having an interest in this industry, go them if they do, but I think whatever they choose and whatever direction, um, they have, I'm just going to be like being beaming regardless, because I do think that as parents, uh, particularly from my parents' generation, like, you know,

my dad was a photographer and had been for many years. And I think he was the one who kind of knew my interests more than my mom did. And my mom was just like, that's nice. Like you do create, she's an academic and she was like, you do creative things. And my dad was like, this is exciting. I get to see my son do all these things and have a life and have like these creative outlets. And, um, I was really influenced by that.

And I think, you know, like I remember going to long road trips with my dad, like, you know, we'd be away for like a month or six weeks or something like that. So, you know, he did a lot of traveling. And I remember like as a kid, I didn't think any different. And when people talk about nine to five jobs or like gender roles or anything like that, and I'm like, I had a stay at home dad and I had a mom who went to work. That was my

life. That was my brother in my life. So to have anything different and, and, and it's why when people go, that's a man's job, or this is like a woman's job, I'm like, no, it's anyone's job. Like literally whoever's got a spare hand should go and do that. If they've got the time. Like, and I think that, um, you know, for me, I think this, the downside of this industry is that perspective where it's like, you know, oh, it's the woman's

job to care for the child. And it's like, well, no, it's like, sorry. It's, it is both. And it's like, whoever's home is going to take care of that child and make sure they're fed because legally by also requirements and by the law of Australia, that is mass, that

is murder. If you don't look after your child and it dies, it's child neglect. And I think, um, you know, it's just, you do so much for kids and I think that, you know, to give them a fair chance and, um, yeah, I, I sort of think that, you know, that's the, the great side about the industry, but I also think as, you know, people who, you know, us as our age and as young as we are, when we are in 20 years time, when we do have families,

um, you know, and I think that is much of the perspective is hopefully we can give them opportunities that we didn't have. Um, you know, and like we do for new people coming into the industry and giving them more and more so that, you know, the next generation

have a better experience necessarily. We even did, which, you know, might've been hit and miss because, you know, we talk about the Australian government, not funding the arts and stuff, but you know, like hopefully in, in, you know, I would like to think in 15 years time that the Australian has quite a booming industry of international capability where we are our own house and we aren't just a reliance source of American and English

production and Chinese markets. Like we are our own big production house because most of the time you just see the production logos and that's about the extent of the excitement that's yeah. Yes. Yeah. Um, and that's what I love so much about. Like there are so many amazing Australian TV shows out there. Like mystery road is one of them. And I absolutely love it. Not only because like it showcases our Australian land, but it also showcases

how amazing our indigenous actors are here as well. Like Aaron Pederson, what an amazing actor. So, you know, I just fell in love with that show because it was, it was not only, you know, how, how well they had developed his character, um, throughout the few seasons, but also just the way that they were showcasing the land as well, because the land is obviously incredibly important to our indigenous ancestors. So, um, you know, just the beautiful drone

shots of the land and everything. Oh, you know, it was, I just fell in love with that show and I had to binge watch it. I think that's on Stan, isn't it? Yes, it is. Yeah. Stan has some good shows. Yes, it does. And, and same with like, um, wolf like me as well. I did a couple of, I did a couple of weeks on that as well. And like, technically I think that one does have some international funding towards it as well, but it was technically,

it was set in Adelaide. So here in part in Sydney. Yeah. But it was filmed pretty much here in Sydney. So I think they did an amazing job at, you know, making it look like it's, you know, little, little Adelaide there, but you know. I think my favourite scene is when Josh Gad is at Tram Sheds literally down the road and I was watching this and my partner

Emily and I were just like, holy crap, that's like literally down the road. And, and like the same with Jubilee Park, if they were sitting there and like I love Fisher, but the thing that always baffled me about that show is Isla Fisher is Australian. Yes. Yet she's an American character. I'm like, just make her an Australian. It made no sense. Cause Josh, but I also love that show because Josh Gad is a huge fan of Australia as well. He

is a massive fan of Australia. And I think what really makes, and they're doing a second season now. I can't wait to see it cause I'm a huge fan of that show. Um, but I do think that also it's, it's Australian drama that works. And it's like, you know, with, with Wolf Like Me. Um, and you know, and I think also like, you know, you had shows that probably didn't land as well, but I do remember a great show, which was called the Glitch. Um, which

did three seasons. It was a fun show. It was, um, set in a rural town and all these dead people came back to life. It was very weird, but it was very unique. Um, and then I also remember years ago when I was a kid, there was a BBC, a CBBC show called Jeopardy. Oh yes. I do remember. Yes. And it was set in Australia for two seasons and it was about kids discovering UFOs and alien invasion. And it was really fun. I had, that was one

of my favorite shows as a kid as well. I just, I loved it. Yeah. And I think back to those shows and it's like, those are the content that I love watching where you show the rural side of Australia, but also so the city side and you have this great balance because I think the shows that I love are a crime and our sci-fi and our drama based shows, because when it comes to, you know, the, you know, as well as I think like Home and Away and

Neighbors were great training grounds and still is like with Home and Away, um, they are the shows that are very rinse and repeat. They have a quick turnaround in terms of actually what they do. And while like Neighbors has just wrapped up and finished forever, it's, it's one of those shows that I think in 10 years time might get revitalized because it's

such a training ground for people. Yes. Um, or something will come out of its place, like some other soap drama that will last another 50, 60 years because you know, like you've got, it is great training grounds for young people. It's, you know, whether you're an actor, whether you're a camera operator, whether you're, you know, like, you know, any tech assistant or a runner, go and do those shows because like, like with any show, like with

the stand shows and stuff, they're great training grounds. Yes. You learn fast, you learn hard because they've got either, you know, big actors, Australian actors or big names attached to them in terms of starring roles. Uh, but you also just learn very fast about what to do and how fast a show won't be made and the, the process of it because logistically they're, you know, they're either, you know, but also you'll see the sides which, you know, aren't

advertised, which is when things go wrong on these kinds of shows. And that is the funnest thing because we talk about like, you know, uh, nothing, you know, scheduling issues and you know, it's big productions have that all the time. They have so many days where it

goes over under. Um, but yeah, like going, I said to anyone new, just go and watch a bunch of things and, and then watch the behind the scenes, go and watch behind the scenes docos cause they are the things where you see all the things go wrong and you see what doesn't work and you know, and like, yeah, it's just, and you see the problem solving that goes into things as well. Cause problem solving is just such a huge thing in the industry

as well. You know, whether it is a weather problem or whether it is, you know, now a new scheduling issue that's popped up or, you know, there's, there's so much problem solving that goes into it. And I think, you know, our first ADs always, you know, the first people to try and fix that. Make it work. Yes. Oh my God. It's so true. Um, I'm going to use this perfect point to wrap us up because, but I have absolutely loved. Yes. I've had a wonderful time. So

Madison, where can people find you? Where can they stalk you onto the internet? I'm, um, I'm on Instagram. It's Maddie movement, but it's a, it's a private account. So you have to, you have to request. Um, and, um, I do have a website as well, but that's sort of under development at this stage. It's still, you know, I've uploaded quite a few things, but I just, I need to get more content happening onto it. So, you know, that's, that's sort

of where I'm at at the moment where you can find me, where you can stalk me. Yeah. Just go on, go on stalk Maddie. It's like, well worth it. It's so much fun. No, it was an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for having me anytime. And if you want to go and check out more episodes of the things we do, you can check them out on Apple and Spotify. I'll be speaking with another guest next week and I'll speak to you all later. Goodbye.