The Things We Do... - Interview with Julia Robertson

This is the Things We Do podcast, a podcast about film, life, television, culture, mental health and all of that fun jazzy stuff. Today I've got my special guest and friend, Julia Robertson. Hello, thank you for having me. No worries, thank you for coming on. So I've got a big first and foremost question, Julia. Who are you and what do you do? What do you do? What do you do? Who am I? I'm all things, everything. Gosh, I am a multidisciplinary, theatre-based artist. God, who am I?

I'm a dog lover. I'm a 32-year-old woman. I'm also a teacher. I'm a musician. I'm an actor, a director. It's hard not to base yourself off of your work, isn't it? Yeah. I'm invested in, I mean, every single part of my life is theatre-related. And so that's very much how I define myself. But I guess that is who I am and what I do are all those things as well. You're kind of a collective, like a hub mind. Yes, I am 12 different people in the same body. Yeah, that's called schizophrenia.

Ideally, that's me. It's kind of extraordinary because I think you have been on my radar for as long as I can remember Instagram being around, which has probably been the last five or six years that I've used it. But yeah, you've just been this sort of sheer force of nature, which is a little bit bizarre in a way. A bizarre force of nature. My close friends call me that.

But I mean, do you kind of feel like, even at 32, that sort of all this hard work and all this longevity has sort of kind of been like a bit surreal still? Look, the work is ongoing. I've never felt quite like I'm finished or achieving anything really that great. I am a very ambitious person. I push myself very hard. I try to do things that scare me. I try to do things that seem daring and bold and encourage others to do the same.

So I think, yeah, I still feel like I have so much more to do with every project that I've done and with my collective and with my acting. If there's anything that I haven't done, I'm always keen to try it. So I guess force is a good word because I really do push and force myself into places that may be uncomfortable because I think that's how I get better. And I love a challenge. I love criticism. I love, yeah, I just, I think there's so much more room for us to be brave within the arts.

And unfortunately, because we have such a difficult industry where everyone is in survival mode, we don't always get the most dangerous ideas and the boldest ideas. And I like the idea that, you know, theatre is very transitory. You can do something that's really bold and if it doesn't work, it doesn't work, you move on. It's just a play. It only exists for a certain amount of time. And you can learn from it.

So I'm always trying to do something that I think would possibly be too hard for me to do. That's like my life goals. It's just like, what sounds too hard? Let's do that. What is going to give me a sheer mental breakdown? Hopefully not in two weeks. That's extraordinary because you like, for anyone who doesn't know you, you are kind of just, you do appear and look at Julia online. You look like you're 20, which is an extra and you're 32 and you've frozen encapsulated in time.

And that is like extraordinary because you're doing so much. And the fact that, I'm going to say this, holy hell, no one would put on the musical that you would. Decided this, this is a great, great bit of German expressionism. Like let's put on Metropolis. Let's make that a musical. Why? Because it's a challenge and why hasn't it been done? Why has no one done it yet? Like it's crazy to me.

I mean, it has been done in the eighties badly, but it's one of those things where I think, I don't think anything is untouchable. And I think if things remain relevant and exciting, there's a reason for that. And how do we become, how do we make that more accessible? It's actually really surprising to me how few people knew Metropolis coming into the show.

And that's been something that's been a great learning experience for me because I think there's been a lot of assumed knowledge in its creation, in its very rapid creation. Cause I'm like, everyone knows Metropolis, right? But it's already fading out of, I guess, the zeitgeist and it only exists in its sort of modern forms of Blade Runner or things like that.

So it's a privilege to be able to reignite the energy that it has and the story that it has and everything that is so, so, so relevant today. And especially to do it with Thea's words, the original writer Thea von Harbu, because it's really her story and she wrote the screenplay and we all remember Fritz Lang, but we don't remember her. Yeah. Which is kind of extraordinary because, you know, it was in a time of what it was in 1930. 1925 was when the novel came out and the film came out in 1927.

That's nuts. Yeah. And then it's been re-edited multitudes of times. I don't think the original exists in any form except like one reel on one part of the plan. It's like very hard to find the original cut. And it's varying in length and it's kind of extraordinary that the fact that it is this sort of weird story about like human society and robots and like how the, like, I can see what you mean by Blade Runner.

But then the thing is, you remember when in high school, when everyone had to study Blade Runner and half the class hates it because they're all like, this is absolute shit. Like nothing about this is good. And then, you know, like, but the thing about the original idea is it is interesting. Like the whole idea of like, how does humanity deal with like something that looks so similar to them or something that is so almost replicant?

Yeah. I mean, it was the original sci-fi film and so much of film. I think, you know, as soon as you know Metropolis, you see it everywhere. Every single film that you see, every single sci-fi film that you see, anything that sort of touches on any of the theme, you can see the Metropolis reference within it because that's what everything was based on. But you know, reading the novel, the way that she describes the voice of the female robot of the AI is exactly what Siri sounds like today.

And that's mental to me, you know what I mean? She knew that. She predicted that in 1925. And that's how we hear AI now every day when we talk to our phone or we ask Siri to play music. She talks exactly how Fia described. And I think that's just magic.

I think it's amazing when people are using all of the, you know, political and social commentary from their histories and their impending futures and can make something that is so all-encompassing that it will still be incredibly accurate 100 years later. Which is, yeah, nuts. It's only a few more years and then it's actually 100 years old. Do you think you'll redo it at 100 and just have the... We will? Do you think, yeah. Yeah, look, I mean, the idea is definitely to grow it.

But the best feedback from this whole process has been that people want more, which is very rare with the new work. Often it's like, you know, you need to cut that down, that's too long. And I'm very wary of anything over 90 minutes. I'm like, you've got to have a really good reason to get it off. Because I think your attention spans are shorter now. And I think, you know, the audience is wanting something more concise.

And so we've got to show that it's 40 minutes, 20 minute interval, 40 minutes. And the feedback has very much been, you need to give it an extra 30, an extra 40 and clarify some of those ideas and just extend. There's so much room. And I always knew that it was going to be an epic. But I'm very concise and very direct with the way that I express things to a fault. And so knowing that there is room and people want more is just the best thing.

So I think Zara and I, as soon as we opened, we knew that there were things that we wanted to do with it and things that needed to change and things needed to evolve and things that needed to be added in. So it'll definitely be grown. And yeah, maybe that'll hit the hundred year mark and that'll be quite special. I mean, it's only a few years away. It's not really that far.

But I mean, that's extraordinary as well, because you run like this small little theatre production company, which like you've only made one other show prior to this, is that it? Oh no, we've been around for seven years. Seven years. Yeah, we've done, gosh, how many shows have we done now? You should know this more than I do. I'll get my website up and I'll tell you. I think it's about seven shows. Oh, so a show per year? Yeah, at least. We started out of Sydney University.

Yeah. Me and my friend, Georgia. Georgia was a dancer and she was in the dance society. And I saw her dance and I thought, I am terrified of using my body like that because I've never had a dance lesson in my life. But it was so beautifully expressive. And so the storytelling was so clear that I wanted to learn how to do that. Because I think as an actor, you sort of, you have your tendencies and what you rely on.

And I was very voice reliant and accent and whatever, things that don't actually matter. And so I wanted to extend myself and I met Georgia and we made a short 30 minute work in 2015. And then the university sponsored us to take that to a festival in Brisbane and everyone was really supportive of it. And it sort of challenged what the drama society at least was doing at that point because everyone was very focused on the classics and doing the Shakespeare and being actors.

And I wanted to show that, you know, especially within a drama society where you don't have any money that you have to make back and you can explore dangerous things within that safe space. I wanted to show that we could do other things just like movement or devised work. Here we go. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine. We've done nine projects since we started. That's nuts.

And I mean, 2018 was really when Georgia and I both stepped out of it and started to direct other people and create things with larger ensembles, which is when we did Pinocchio, which was our first sort of big work that, you know, went really well and people were very supportive of. Two clarinetists, three vocalists and a clown. But yeah, it's mostly been 50 minute works up until Metropolis. It's been very sort of short form, intense devising periods.

Early adaptations, contemporized adaptations. And then Metropolis was the first. It's the first thing I've written. So it was very like, I don't know what I'm doing, but a good challenge again. And I thought it would be something that would be more devised. But working with Zara Stanton, my composer, she was like, you know, we're going to need to go in with a draft. And I was like, oh, okay, I guess I'll just write something. In four months. Here's my plot. There we go.

But yeah, using the novel to do that was really helpful. And I really enjoy the process of adaptation generally and that updating stories to adapting stories for contemporary audience. So I knew that that was something I was going to love. But yeah, I've realized now why it takes years to write a musical and not four months. I was like, oh, this stuff. Yeah, we deserve to spend some more time on this. But that being said, what we've been able to achieve, I'm very, very proud of.

Yeah. Because it's kind of initial announcement to it being out and then also probably preconceived thinking in your head is probably like up to six months. Yeah. I mean, I always have things in the bank that I sort of go with the right opportunity appears. I'll pull that project out of the bank. But I'm also a very, very tunnel vision type of person when I have something that I'm doing. I literally can't think about anything else.

So I don't let myself start work on a project until I know what that opportunity is. I just sort of have the idea sitting in a Google Drive somewhere. That's what it's called. And it will sort of be about this. And the haze came to us and said, you know, we have our new musicals and we have our classics, but we don't have anything like what you do. Would you want to do something? And I pitched two things and they were like, well, obviously the troplers would be great.

And I said also, yes, it would be great. Not realizing it's incredibly expensive to put on a musical and producing it was a, you know, deadly experience. But eventually I got another producer, Harry, on board and he sort of has guided us through since the launch date. But even getting up to that point, it was like, oh, this is beyond anything that I've ever done as a producer and as a company. Which is an excellent way to grow as well.

I mean, I'm always trying to grow in every area that I can and learn about every single field because I think that makes the best collaborative work is if you really understand what people do. And working with Zara like that was amazing. Learning how a composer works. And it's her first musical as well, which is astonishing because she's amazing. Oh, goodness. So, yeah, we were learning from each other a lot and leaning on each other a lot.

And yeah, it's it's been a big one, but it's probably the first the first project I haven't wanted to leave behind quickly. There are so like every other project I've done, I've been thrilled with and I've tied up in a bow and said, next one. Whereas this one, I think as soon as it opened, I was like, oh, this is going to be with us for a while and we're going to need to keep working on this.

And it has the bones to be something quite epic and quite big and something that I want to see go international. And I want to see an Australian made project that isn't isn't a small story. It's a big one. And that's we're capable of that, too. Yeah. I mean, it's really interesting because I think like just just from gathering it as well that you've always been very headstrong and determined to. Getting the sense of this is like you're like, I can't deny this any further.

Oh, no, I'm very I'm very upfront about what I am and who I am. I'm a very direct person. And I just hope to instill other people with that as well. I think I very much lead by example. And I'm a teacher and I very much try and instill that vibe in my kids because you can't it's really difficult to be in the arts just generally. Yeah. And it's more difficult to be in the arts and be courageous.

And the best work is always made by, you know, people who are being super courageous and trying things that they've never tried before, because that's where the risk lies. And I love watching theatre that is taking a risk. There is you know, there are lots of plays that I feel like I could do and I could do justice to. And I've directed with schools those plays before. And but I don't know what I don't want to do things that I know that I can already do.

Like that doesn't help me, I think, as an artist. And that doesn't help me contribute to my industry and what I want to see in my industry. Which I think is very noble as well, like in a sort of like artistic vision to be like, oh, I'm not going to just stand by and be like, oh, I just want to see the same thing done to death. Because I sort of get like the fact is you are a nerd of... Huge nerd.

Of theatre, but also like, just sci fi and stories and just like things like you, you seem to be, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be a person who is very out of their own time. Like they're enjoying every element, but they were born in a very different era in their head with stories were just like everywhere. And we're in such a technological, like multifaceted way. And you're just really an out of the box. How do I appropriate this?

Or how do I use this to make someone question something or question the idea of society? Like I already sort of think the fact that you're adapting for trouble makes me think you'll do like 1984 or something like that as a musical. Yeah, look, I never thought of myself generally as a political person.

And then I've looked at the works that I've done and the work that I do with the collective and I'm like, oh wow, all of them are quite like very, very socially conscious and always have a really strong message or a reason to be on the stage. And I think that's the work that inspires me most is just, because I do deep in my core believe that theatre can change the world a little bit. And I know that that's probably naive.

But I do think if you can change one mind or if you can make one person consider someone else's views, then you are changing the world. And I love that idea. It's so awesome to me when I go and see shows that, even when I was younger, I will not necessarily remember the narrative or remember the exact happenings in that show, but I will remember the feelings that it left me with or the images that were so striking that it made me feel horrified.

And that is the association I have with that story or whatever it is. And those are the things that stay, the feelings. And that's what theatre can do. It can make you feel things. It's not just understanding or accepting or, you know, reading an essay. It's something where you have a gut feeling and that stays with you for much, much, much longer than the understanding of a concept. Yeah, I would highly agree with that.

I think also the theatre that I've seen growing up, especially like we're of the same vintage, so we've grown up with very much like the good Sydney theatre around. But I just particularly remember falling in love with theatre and film, particularly around the same time. And I think it's just that love for independent theatre, especially when they're out of like, because the thing I love about like already what I've seen, and I wish I could just, you know, drop everything to come see Metropolis.

I'm really hoping I can because I've meant to. It sounds terrible. You'll get there. I'll get there. I really want to say it. But I mean, like the thing I love is like also just the fact that it is, you know, when theatre is immersive, when and film is immersive, like it has, because like film is just theatre. Like it was theatre filmed, and that was how it started, and then it became its own thing.

And you really kind of get a sense when you watch good theatre, that they're investing everything from like the story to suddenly they've got a bit more budget than they're going with the props and the set dressing. And I really think that when you are starting out and you're a theatre maker, it's really good to just remember that everything is a key detail. Totally. And it's about world building because... Totally. It's a huge trap.

I think it's a huge trap that a lot of young theatre makers fall into of this concept that theatre is actors, or theatre is, you know, actors on a stage in a script. It's about the writer and the actors only. And I've never believed that. And I think it's a misunderstanding that you have to have money to pay attention to the design or to pay attention to the props that you use or how that's expressed or the movement.

You know, all of those elements matter, the sound, the sound design, music, like every single theatrical element matters. And when those are in harmony, that's when you have a really beautiful story that will stay with people. Sure, you can have shows that are just actors on a stage, but it can be the perfect black box. You know, it can be, you know, the perfectly cut drama blacks t-shirt, you know, and that matters. I think people don't necessarily recognise that.

So they sort of think of some of those elements as an afterthought. It's like, oh, we'll be lucky if we have the right sound design or whatever. And it's like, you know, especially when you're starting out, like I used to do all my own sound design because I don't know, like I didn't know anyone who was vaguely interested in it. I wanted to be a designer before I wanted to be an actor and a director. And I still my own sound design, I used to build my own sets.

But that sort of cohesion across all of the elements of drama, I think, was the thing that was most important to me and the thing that I think helped the audience, you know, feel and understand your story much clearer. And it also made me understand those roles a lot better so that when I did work with sound designers or designers, I had some level of understanding as to what they do and how they feed into the world.

And then that becomes even more exciting when you're working with people who totally understand their role and are exceptional at it and can feed in their own kind of dramaturgy as to why things should look the way they look. And, you know, one of my favourite little details is Ella Butler, our costume designer.

When Frieda changes costumes from his upper world character to Georgie's workers uniform, he tucks in his shirt and he rolls up his sleeves and he has unbuttoned so that you can see his undershirt underneath, whereas all the other workers have their sleeves rolled down and his their shirts out. And this kind of concept that dramaturgically, his character wouldn't know how to wear the uniform he's wearing it the way that he would wear it in the upper world, which is a shirt tucked into pants.

And it's little details like that that I just love that Ella can provide me with that storytelling that's purely visual that maybe an audience doesn't notice, but they can probably feel subconsciously that this person doesn't quite fit in, even though they are dressed exactly the same. There's a reason why their shirt is unbuttoned because they're hot and the other workers don't see that as an option. It's like, I love stuff like that.

I love those are just little details that only people within those that kind of appreciation across the entire production elements can bring you. It's not just about actors saying words. Yeah, I think also the, you know, and I think you really hit the nail on the head. It's just, you're one of many cogs in a machine.

Absolutely. And I think that's what people also forget about theatre is it's not, you know, like, because you know, you're talking about like all the costume designers, like, it's funny how a director, like when you're directing something, you're like, oh, it's a collaborative thing. And I think when young directors come in, they think they have all the ideas and like, this is distinctly, I've got the vision, I can do this.

And this is like, there are directors that work that way and work very successfully that way. I think, you know, it just depends what works for you, what resources you have. You know, some of the professional directors I've worked with, with major theatre companies have had everything decided before you get in the room, except the acting, right? So they know how the transitions are going to work.

They know where you need to stand when, but that scene, you can just try stuff again and again and again, and they will choose the best options of those of you trying. And that's great, you know, because they've had all of the time with their team to decide exactly how they want the show to look and how it to feel and what it will sound like. And the actors, you just come in and you do your job and you do it well and that's undefined, you know? And that's an incredible process as well.

And it's a very safe process for actors. I work very collaboratively purely because I really enjoy new work. And anytime that you're approaching a new work, may it be a play or a devised work or music or whatever, you have to be collaborative because that's the only way to get a great product because everyone needs an opinion on a new work. It can't just be one person's idea or you end up with a very singular sort of, yeah, maybe not so successful new work. But I love new work for that reason.

But you know, some of the old classics, you can definitely direct it that way where the actors don't need so much feedback. They just need to be doing their role and enjoying that part of the process only because that's what they're hired to do. And I mean, I think me being able to be an actor and a director is really beneficial because I understand my role in the machine very well and I really enjoy that.

And I enjoy sort of negotiating how a director is going to move through their production and going, okay, as an actor, what is my role here? How do I make everyone else look good? How do I know what, yeah, how do I be the perfect cog in this machine? How do I make it work for the production, not just for me? Yeah. I mean, I want to kind of ask in particular, like when you were younger, like with all this sort of like journey now, like what was it like growing up?

Like, you know, which journey came first? Because I'm assuming acting was your first love or was it kind of like? Yeah, I guess. My parents are very, they weren't wealthy growing up and they really valued music. And so when they moved to Australia, they very much pushed that all of us will learn the piano and all of us will learn another independent instrument.

So I played piano in clarinet growing up and music was very highly regarded in the house and, you know, reading the classics, doing the music. It was very like old fashioned kind of upbringing of values of what makes a good person, a rounded person. But definitely at school, I was always like, I don't know, I was always that kid that was like leading games or making up games and telling everyone what to do.

And then I got the lead in the junior school play, which was, I think it was called Harry the Hottest Boy Alive or something. I loved it because I got to spike my hair up and spray it red and play a boy. I really enjoyed that. And it definitely grew from there. I definitely, I did drama all through high school. I was the drama prefect. I introduced theatre sports into my school. As soon as I graduated, my drama teacher hired me as a year seven and eight drama teacher.

So I learnt a lot very quickly just from teaching. I think teaching really taught me how to negotiate with people. And especially when you're working with children, you're working with, you know, the most volatile group of humans. And if you can work with them, then you can work with almost anybody there. I love kids and I love teenagers. So I did a lot of learning very quickly. I tried to be a teacher because I didn't think the arts were, you know, a profession that you could follow.

I wasn't really raised. I was raised to respect them, but not necessarily that that was going to give me a secure lifestyle. So I was like, oh, that's cool. I'll do teaching. But I didn't really enjoy education at uni. It seemed very preachy and less about the people than it was about the subject of education generally. And I was very much about the kids and very much about the people. And drama was always a secondary subject. It wasn't like teachers for drama.

It was teachers who did English and then drama on the side. And then I did a performance study subject and I met a group of people who were like, you should join SUDS, the drama society. And then I hardly did any other academic subjects. And I just did, I did performance studies only, performance studies in English. And then I did the drama society. I was there so many days a week. It took me ages to finish my degree because I just didn't do it.

I just made plays and I was just in the drama society and loved it. Was on the executive, was a social secretary. So I got to make everyone feel welcome and comfortable and generate a culture and throw parties and things like that, which is very much who I am. And then after that, tried to be a designer, tried to audition for NIDA Design and didn't get in. Which is very good to be honest. I'm very glad because I love design and I'm now engaged to a designer.

He's an amazing designer, but I have a strong appreciation for design, but I'm not a great designer. I think I just did it because no one else in the drama society was interested in design. And I was like, oh, well, maybe that's it. And I think it's a brave thing to call yourself an actor. I always knew that I was good at it and I enjoyed it, but very seriously considering yourself to be an actor seemed like a big move.

And I was like, well, it sounds a bit lame if I have to be like, I'm an actor. But I went to New York in 2017 and did a month. So I did a lot of comedy. I did a lot of, before I went to New York, I did a lot of comedy. I was sort of like that thing where people are like, oh, you're a funny woman. How great, let's put you in all these comedies. And I was happy with that because I knew what I was good at and I was happy with it. And then I went to New York and I did method acting for a month.

And that really showed me that I could do other things. And I was like, oh, I'm not just a funny person. I can achieve a lot of things and I can play a lot of different roles, some very serious roles and go to some very dark places. And I enjoy that. And I came back and very much was like, okay, let's start taking ourselves seriously. This is something that you can't not do. And I got cast in a NIDA grad show as a Gave in the back eye.

And I remember being like, oh, this is like a role with authority. That's new for me. And yeah, I think since then, I mean, a few people came and saw that show and I got my first 25 a gig off that. And that's where I got my STC gig off. And that's just have been gig to gig from there. All with little legs growing on the side. Which is great. Which is great.

And it all sort of, I learned so much about working with different directors and working with different companies that I could bring into my own practice. But again, just a distinct lack of devising groups within Sydney and a distinct lack of this opportunity to make work that wasn't just writers writing. I really wanted a way for actors to feel the agency that devising gives you that sort of emotional investment and that knowledge that you made that.

You don't have to be a writer in order to create work. And you don't have to speak, in fact, in order to make a story. You know, Pinocchio didn't have any words in it. And that physical theatre and storytelling is just as beautiful and just as effective and live music can be. And also working with people who were non-actors was very important to me.

I think that comes from a love of working with students and kids where you're showing, you're not really teaching them, but you're guiding them through discovering themselves as an artist. And I think that's really fun to work with musicians who have never been on stage before or never performed as an actor before, because it all feeds into each other. I think if you're a great artist, no matter what field you're in, you're going to find an in to perform on stage and vice versa.

So yeah, that's definitely how everything's evolved. But I am a very community based person and very, that's the thing I love most about theatre, I think, is that it's a shared experience and that you are part of the machine. Everyone, even the director, you know, my role is not, I don't like the hierarchical sort of energies that are often, I guess, spouted as being the best, you know, the director is God.

I'm sort of like, well, if the lighting designer knows who's better than me for something, I'm going to let them try it. You know what I mean? Like I'm not ever going to shut down ideas. I want to see them all. I want to invite everyone to have a process and then we can all decide if that works or if it doesn't. Yeah, which I mean, like is kind of, it's not exactly rare, but I feel like it, you know, when it, it is nice to have someone who just goes, yeah, like throw an idea my way.

We'll see if it works. If it works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't. And we'll just try the other way.

Like I feel like that's, but I always love that, you know, because you've been teaching so young and I think this is sort of like something that I notice a lot when it comes to creatives is like, there was just an aura of like one, you know, the standard thing we call professionalism, but you've learned that so early on is how to hold yourself because of, you know, basically teaching straight out of high school, teaching kids and teaching such volatile children where they are the worst.

And yeah, I know it's 13, 14 year olds, 15, they're amazing, but they're also a nightmare. But you know, like they are just this point where they're just, you know, suddenly getting into that weird stage in their life and they don't know who they are entirely. And you're dealing with all of that trying to control the classroom. But also while doing all these other things, it's kind of gives you this, I feel like you're someone who's grown up very, very fast in a lot of ways.

And has that been a blessing and a curse in some ways? It's interesting that you say that because I think it took me a while, like the first time I called myself an actor, I was 26. Really? It took me that long to really take myself seriously as an artist. I definitely, I grew confident very quickly. I was always, I have always thrived off being given responsibility, especially for others. And I think I do that for the people around me as well.

And that's why I like being collaborative because I sort of like, if we are all responsible for each other, we all get fed that same soul food. And it also takes a weight off your shoulders. You know, if everyone's in a position where they feel like they're heard and are responsible for each other's, you know, input and liveliness and all of that stuff, that it's a wonderful experience because you don't carry that one heavy thing.

And I was very lucky that, yeah, I was given things like drama prefect. And I took that very, very seriously. And I really have always thrived off leadership positions. And that made me bolder as I got older. And I think then at uni, I became very angry as everyone at uni is, you know, you're discovering your own politics and your own beliefs all of a sudden. And there's all these different types of people around. It's not just the people from your suburb. You're learning so much so quickly.

And there is social injustices in the world and you suddenly believe in so much. And that's a wonderful experience. But of course it makes you angry at the world, you know, frustrated. And then I was just bursting to do things that were dangerous, I think, because of that anger that I was like, you know, we have all of this stuff that's we're being fed and yet we're still doing Shakespeare's and that's great. But why not do something different with that Shakespeare?

Why not do something daring and bold? You have the opportunity and you have the space and you there's, you know, who's coming to review it? Ony Swar, which is this paper. And that's it. Like no one else cares. It'll be over and you'll do something else. So why not do something that may not work? You know, and I got frustrated in that.

And that's out of that's really where the collective was born was out of that frustration that we weren't just we weren't being crazy enough or bold enough with our ideas when we had the opportunity to do it. Yeah. And then I left uni and did a couple of independent things and and learned more about myself as an artist. I do feel like that's been a slower process. I think potentially myself as a director.

I mean, I have I am a director, but I don't think people know me first and foremost as a director. I think they probably know me more as an actor. And yet I think it took me longer to embrace myself as an actor than it did as a director. I always knew that I love directing and that I was good at it and I enjoyed it and I was good at bringing people together and being collaborative and, you know, in having positive critical discussion was always really important to me.

Yeah, I always knew that that was who I am. But an actor that's taken a little bit more convincing. And I think I just I honestly I I just act because I'm like I'm good at it. And I'm like, that makes me my money, which I'm happy with. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? It's so funny because everyone's always like, I feel like actors can be so hard on themselves, you know, being really like, I'm not good enough for this or there's so much struggle in an actor's life.

And I've just sort of let that I think having the collective on the side and being a director on the side, sort of being my underlying focus and letting acting just happen has been really beneficial for that craft because I've fallen into roles like teenagers. Yeah. A lot of teenagers. But that is just because it was comfortable for me and I knew what that was. And so I never really doubted myself. I didn't really want to call myself an actor, but I didn't doubt that I could do it.

And I've always been I'm always very comfortable on stage, especially as a different person. I think being on stage as myself is a little bit harder, but something that I will get better at. But certainly as an actor, I've always felt very comfortable there. Whereas as a director, that's where the risk is for me. And that's where the adrenaline is, like the excitement of pushing boundaries and trying things that are much, I don't know, more difficult.

I actually really enjoy the times where I, you know, work on a project as a director for a significant amount of time. And it's almost like doing an acting job is a reprieve because I'm like, great, I get to go and just do my job, the singular job. I always describe it as, you know, a director is looking at the whole symphony and an actor gets to play their solo line. And it's joy. You know, it's just one line of music on the clarinet in my head. And it's easy. It's like a breeze.

It feels lovely to just focus on that one singular thing. But then you get hungry for the rest of the music and I have to go back to directing and creating something that's really dexterous and difficult. And I don't know if it sounds any good, but we're going to find out. That probably sounds very obnoxious to say. I think that's just how I see it. It's very much the job. I guess acting is the job and theatre is the passion.

Which is really interesting because, you know, they sort of like two worlds merging, you know, obviously on different sides when you're the director and the actor, but I mean, I can sort of see in your eyes and no one can see Julia, only I can see Julia. But I can see in your eyes how much like stories and directing kind of give you this sort of level of drive. And especially like, you know, the fact that you do present someone who's like looks like they're 20, like teens is a luxury.

It's like, oh, okay, I've frozen in time since I was like, which is kind of nuts, you know, great genetics, right? But I mean, like, does that, did that also being someone who looked so young, did that take you a while to get taken seriously externally? Absolutely. I think very much as an actor, it made life really easy because I could be, I could have a 28 year old's mind and do justice to a 17 year old who's going through a lot, for example.

Whereas if you're casting younger, if you're actually casting a teenager, that can be very dangerous for them psychologically. Whereas I have enough time and space to recognize what that looks like and to appropriately inhabit that body without it being dangerous for me psychologically.

But as a director, and as someone who is in the industry playing teenagers, a lot of people think that you're the bright young thing and that you're just fresh and new and bubbly and kind and that person that plays all of those roles. But and so, yeah, I think I've really had to, I guess I like the fight. I've always liked surprising people. And I think it's part of that. I, it is something that I think has like, yeah, a blonde haired, blue eyed white chick who looks about 20.

It's a shock when people see something like Metropolis and they're like, this is what you're interested in. I'm like, yeah, I'm a big old nerd. And to the extent that I'm very sure of myself in the room and I am very direct and I enjoy that process. I'm not a shy or insecure person. I've worked very hard to be secure in myself. And I want to keep stretching myself. I want to keep doing things that scare me for that very reason.

And you know, the industry makes you resilient and I have enjoyed that. I think a lot of the difficulty in our industry is moving past that point where you go, this is really scary and I could really, I have choices here. I can choose to let this affect me or I can choose to override it by making something so scary that it's within my control.

And I think that's the process for me and why, why acting feels like a relief is because the other stuff I'm doing is so much scarier, you know, and I want to keep that, that motive of yeah, of developing work.

I mean, that being said, it's incredibly non-profitable and very difficult to make an actual life out of because I often think if I did just direct a goddamn play, maybe I'd get work as a director because I keep insisting on doing things that haven't been done before that it's very hard to showcase my skills, I guess, as just a director who directs play, which I'm also pretty good at if I don't say so myself. But it is, it is, makes it difficult.

Yeah. Because I mean, like you are a jack of all trades kind of realistically, you know, you do a lot and like whether that's in the creative arts bubble, it's still kind of just goes, oh, okay, it's Julia the actor, Julia the director, Julia the writer, you know, like, and I think that is while, you know, we're living in the 21st century and that's great.

It does make our industry very limiting because it's the thing, it's the thing that I think, you know, because I still, I still get that occasionally, which is, you know, like, I often, you know, like, you record a podcast at home, you sort of go, oh, is it serious? Is it not serious? You know, like, I take it 100% seriously, but it's outward, like, definitely had guests who, you know, haven't taken as seriously as you take it.

So it's, it's, it's always like how you really value yourself, how you sort of like take your own sort of like security and you do, as you say, you need to always be like very affirmed in your, who you are as a sense of self. Yeah. Easier said than done. Easier said than done. And it's something that you have to fight for, I think. And I think every show that I do, I'm fighting for that, that assuredness. And I'm trying to do things that I know may not be successful and be confident in that.

And that's the blessing of theater. It is a transitory thing. You know, you can do it again. You can do another play. You can, you know, it's not a fixed thing. And I, I mean, it's difficult because our industry is so small and there are, you know, a few gatekeepers that it's really hard to push past. There's not a lot of theaters here. There's not a lot of independent spaces here. So you do really have to fight for time and space.

And there's not a lot of room for things to go south, which is unfortunate because I think stuff has to be bad before it's good. You know, like I think there needs to be more space for people to take really big risks and for it to go horribly. Like that's the only way that you learn. Yeah. You know, I've seen things, I've seen pieces of theater that have been incredibly unsuccessful, but that I've been like, I so appreciate that existing because it was such a big idea.

There was no way they were going to reach it, but fucking good on you for giving it a go. Like that makes it worthy in my eyes. And that's what advances, you know, arts practice in a culture is if people are taking those risks and you know, somewhere like Germany, where they pay people to be artists and you have a living wage means that they can afford to really push the boundaries constantly. Yeah. Which is why they're at a forefront of creation and why we sit, you know, 30 years behind London.

Yeah. We're doing things that echo stuff that's already been done. I think it's also like the, you know, putting, putting both of us on a pedestal. Please, I haven't done it enough. But I mean, like there is like a handful of us in Sydney, which it does feel like more of a handful than it really does. Like we are a mass conglomerate of artists and creatives. And I think, as you say, not enough of them are really, they're all playing it very safe.

And I have often found you sort of find the people when you do find the people who want to challenge and think that's a really cool idea. Like, you know, you're talking classic literature, you know, adapt this weird abstract German expressionism art.

Sure. Um, you know, like literally I, the other day I was, you know, just looking through books that I haven't read and I'm like, you know, I have a bookshelf for, um, you know, like old, um, old books like George Orwell and, you know, like, and I grew up with plays like Arthur Miller and, you know, stuff like that. Grew up with 1940s and 1930s films.

And I often think it's like, you know, one of my, one of my favorite, um, films is Gaslight and the term was based off the play and the play, no one knew the word term Gaslight before because it's not a popular word. It wasn't a English vocab word. And it's the first term of just like sheer mental abuse and like that sort of level of abuse. And it gave that term and I, we watched it recently and I was like, God, this film's ahead of its time. Like it's really, really fucking smart.

And I was just sitting there going with my in-laws and just going, how is this film in the forties, like when, you know, female like, you know, ideas weren't really the head of it. It's, it's about this woman getting abused and then taking back the power at the end and just going, no, fuck you. I'm out of here. And you're the one who's like abused me the entire time. It is the forefront because I feel like, you know, now that the industry has sort of like changed, it has evolved.

There still is those step backs where it's like, you know, it's only been the last 20 years where women have been given, you know, the ability to do more theater forefront that you have, you know, because I feel like when we were growing up in the nineties, we weren't exposed to that. We weren't exposed to, and especially like, as you say, you know, your blonde hair, blue eyed that is in Australia considered the very stereotypical dumb blonde. Why would you bother?

And it's, it's extraordinary because I think that one of the first things that made me want to reach out to you was the fact that you knew things that I was like, these are the things I grew up with and I love. And it's weird because you only see like one or two people, whoever really know what Metropolis is, you know, or when it started or, you know, like, you know, the idea behind it or, you know, all these things.

And it feels like we are in this little capsule and niche bubble of people who aren't just watching Shakespeare, as you say, or watching, you know, like, um, the same old Alfred Hitchcock films, which are great. But everyone knows who these people are.

Like there was, you know, no one, a handful would know like, you know, foreign films or, you know, cause we are in such a Western world and it really shows, particularly when I went, I went to, before the pandemic, I went to London and I thought, you know, like the best thing about London is going to see the theatre. And I went to the Globe and I thought they were, they were, you know, like they had this all female, um, play of Richard the third. I was like, cool, I'm going to go and see that.

And I watched it and I was like, you know what this makes it better than most Shakespeare is the fact that everyone was a woman, like all the characters were. And I just felt like I was like, this is the thing that makes it more powerful because they're just trying something new with them and just going, if this fails. Who the fuck cares? It's not going to set us back. I think that's the thing as well.

And I mean, you say that there's a few of us in the bubble, but I think there's probably way, way, way more who are just not brave enough to be bold about it. And I think that's why, you know, I am so obnoxious about my confidence in myself because I'm trying to encourage other women to do the same. And I think, you know, when, when I started, you know, being interested in theatre, it was all about those big white dudes who fucking, you know, loved themselves and the director was king.

And it was always like, they were so assured, but it was only those straight white men who'd been doing it for the last 20 years, who demanded things and like had ways of working in it. Oh, they're horrible to work with, but they're a genius and blah, blah, blah. And I was always like, well, that's fucking shit. Like I can, I wanted to be as assured as they were, but also treat people nicely. I was like, I think there's room for that.

And I think I am like such an advocate for women being arrogant because we're just not allowed to do that yet. And I think that's crap. Like dudes are so allowed to be sure of themselves and be arrogant, but, but women are still not allowed to do that. And that's something that I've really fought for where I'm like, you know, if you feel like you're good at something, you're allowed to say that you're allowed to be sure of yourself and, and say, no, I am actually really fucking smart.

And I actually really do know what I'm talking about. And I actually know more than you on this one or, you know, yeah, I think, and I mean, that's been some of the best things about working with Zara. Zara is so self-critical. And I have no doubt that as a woman of color, it's been very hard for her to, to really showcase what she's made of. But when I watch her run a room, she's incredible.

You know, she has absolute command and control of everyone in that space and holds authority so beautifully and so gracefully. And not in a way that she has to be cruel to anyone, but in a way that she's strong and she's sure and you don't fuck around. And that's so great. And then to be able to feed her, you know, with this musical, she's like, you know, I don't think I would have ever written a full scale musical had you not said, well, let's do it. You know, and I'm very pushy like that.

And I'm like, well, if you're good, I'm going to push you because you deserve to be heard. Like your shit is better than all the white guys writing musicals. Like it's better and it you're it's better because you're so self critical and because you push yourself so hard. But if you, if you don't have other people around you and often other people from minority groups saying, no, fuck them. You can do this. Um, I believe in yourself and be arrogant about it and be aggressive about it.

I think I use the word aggressive a lot. And I think people think of it as such a negative term, but I'm very, very happily calling myself aggressive because I'm an aggressive person. And I like when I want things and when I like things, I'm aggressive about it. And I think that's a really cool trait that women can have. Um, aggressive and arrogant. I'm into it. That's all you'll take away from this podcast. Everyone's like, God, she's such a psycho.

You know, the, all these things, the thing I was going to say is the thing that I love most about your personality is the fact that you're so like self-assured and everything. Cause I like, I grew up with that. I grew up with a mother who went out and she worked and my dad looked after me and my brother. So that was like our upbringing. We had the stay at home dad. We had the mom who went and you know, worked her way up the ladder.

So it's all, and all my friends have been girls, like all of them. So I'm very used to this, like kick it, you know, kick the guys down, fuck them. And I think it's also like, uh, my fiance like is the exact same. And I think it's also, you know, I particularly believe that when you're good at something, I'm the same. I'm like, no, just strive to achieve it. Like don't, and it doesn't have to be the best. No, like you can still do something and it doesn't have to be the most perfect result.

And that's still worthy. I know, but it's, it's also like the thing. I think people put a price and a value on things and very much like I'm talking, if you, if we lived in a non capitalist world, there was no money and all you were was just watching things. Cool. Amazing. Like everyone have a different level of appreciation. The moment money gets involved, everyone has, oh, the price of this. And it's like independent theater, independent films. There's not a lot of money.

There's you scrape the bottom of the barrel to make a lot of productions work. And sometimes, you know, like I've, I think one of the biggest compliments that I've ever had from various different people is how hard I work and, and how aggressively hard I work, which is kind of insane. I'm probably as clinically insane. I think both of us need to get sectioned. But I mean, like, you know, it is an admirable thing.

And I think the thing is like, you need to work one it's, it's about proving to yourself that you can do something. But it's, I've never felt an interest to prove to others. And I think that's the difference is I've gotten to this point in my career where I'm like, you know what, if someone doesn't like it, oh, well, good fucking you. Like I don't really care. As long as I have, I'm proud of the output and I'm proud of the result.

Because when you do so much and, and because my, you know, like I work a day job, so my day job is working for a media company, which deals with things that are live broadcast. So we have to not be like worried about if because we have to move on. Yes. We're not, you know, going, oh, we've got to think too depthfully about how I've affected. It's like, no, I've got to move on to the next step.

So realistically, I'm always trying to tell young, especially young people that when I meet them, they're 1920 and I've worked with a lot of young people. And I think it's like, what happens when you get to our age and you're just like, alright, let me take you up some wisdom. So much deep wisdom. But I mean, like you do have this a little bit of just going, oh, okay. What advice can I actually give you? And I think the one thing I give a lot of, a lot of young women is just.

Essentially on a set where there's a lot of, there were a lot of male opinions and stuff like that. I'm like, come to me. Yeah. Talk to me. I'll say something, I'll say something, but I'll also make sure that your voice is heard in this situation, which cause that's the level where I'm like, I'm not happy if someone, you know, cause I, there was two sides of this coin, which I, I love and hate about like some men in the room.

Um, and I'll express this opinion widely, but, um, I hate it when you know that you're working with men who just, you know, like always have this sort of like element of, oh, a girl spoke up. So I'm proud of them. And I'm just like, they're a fucking human being, like, like the rest of us treat everyone like an equal or here to do a job or here to make like the product. Like we are making something together as a unit.

And I really drives me mental when we are in this, like, as you say, straight white, you know, cis men society where it's just like, oh, okay, cool. What the fuck? And you, and you see it all the time. And there's no like adjustment to that thing. And they're very obvious, like these people like stick out like a sore thumb with the moment they're in a room. So it's sort of like very, and you can kind of see the, some girls like, especially when they're young, they feel a bit insecure.

They sort of like, they don't know what to say or what's the right thing. So it's just have an opinion. And if someone tries to shut you down, you know, we'll speak up and say, no, listen to that. Cause that's important. Yeah. I do think it, I think it's come a long way though.

I remember, I think I am so much the way that I am now because I was very, very agreeable like as a person or through high school and through most of uni, you know, I got relationships that weren't good because I was so agreeable and I just wanted to make people happy. And I was a really polite kid. I loved all of my teachers. I did everything on time. And I think growing past that through uni and past those bad relationships and watching bad theater and learning so much so quickly.

That's why I got really angry as well. You know, I sort of realized that I've just been this person and this young woman that the world wanted me to be. And yeah, cause unlike you, my parents were very, you know, you've got to be humble and they'll hate listening to this. They're very, they're very like, you know, you have to be polite, humble and it's don't make too much of a noise.

Yeah. And I think that comes from a very working class background where it's like someone bullies you work harder, you know, don't make a noise about it. Don't speak up about it. Just work harder. Just be better as a person. And that definitely feeds in, it's very stoic, very much feeds into the way that I am.

But as I've grown older, I've grown more confident in my voice and I know when I can speak up now and when I should, but you know, working with young people now, they're very good at it and they, the language that they have around speaking up is, is incredible. It's not any of the vocabulary that I had in high school. I think, you know, as much as we all rag on TikTok, I think TikTok is actually a great learning resource.

You know, they, the ideas that are shared, the social ideas that are shared there and the languages that are created to establish what, you know, something like gaslighting is or when relationships are inappropriate and, and how to negotiate that as a young person they're much, much better at like so much more adept at negotiating those social circumstances than I ever was. I let things like horrific things slide.

You know, I think back to those times and I was like, fuck, that was a really dangerous situation that I was in, but I had no idea. I didn't have the words for it. So it just happened. You just let things happen because you don't have any of the language and you don't, none of it is defined. Whereas I think society as a whole has done a lot of work on defining those things and giving them words and language and ways to express exactly what is going on.

And that makes it easier for everyone to have control if you have the language. And I love, I mean, as much as I teach, I also learn so much from young people. Like they just, they're learning so much more than I am so rapidly. And it's my favorite thing when they just, yeah, they have their own random tick tock words or whatever. I'm like, what does that mean? Oh my God, it's an entirely new world.

And I love, I just love learning what they care about the way that the world is shifting or yeah, what's, what's in focus for teenagers because they're so on the pulse of everything at that age and even really small things feel really important when you're a teenager. I think that's why I probably enjoy playing them as well because you're, they're trying so hard to not show anything, but there's everything happening underneath.

Yeah. Just like walking into someone can just be the most soul crushing thing of your entire day. And now you're like, well, I'm walking into someone, walking into someone, I forgot about two seconds later. But I remember as a kid just being like, oh, I'm so ashamed. I like accidentally tripped over my teacher. Oh God. And you think about it for so long because everything was so important.

And yeah, so I learn heaps from my students as well and they, they really challenge everything and I love that. I love playing with young people and it makes my practice much better. Yeah. And I love that as well because I think particularly like with young kids, especially, you know, when they discovered themselves, cause like it makes me think back to when I discovered myself, did a lot of that during my twenties.

But it's like that I feel like was more normal for our generation because school wasn't the place you discovered yourself. But I'm like, the place you disappeared. Yeah. And you know, I think back to it and just my cousin's kids and the fact that, you know, they're so confident. Um, one of them's queer and I didn't even think about coming out as queer until I was like 26. And I was like, that's not a thing. You know, like things like that.

And I just think that, you know, kids are so on top of like everything in terms of like, you know, making people feel accepted pronouns that they keep, you know, like the amount of times that I hear kids correcting adults. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I mean, they just have, their brains are so malleable that they have this ability to adapt so, so rapidly. Whereas as an adult, you do have to practice, you know, because your brains are already fully formed.

Like you've got to go online and do the practicing because it's not just going to blend in the way that it did when your mind was elastic as a child. And it's, I, I'm so impressed by how quickly they adapt. That's why I'm always like, God, you're so much cleverer than I am. So good. I'm like, you're so clever that you can feed off of your cleverness. But yeah. You just have like, like a sort of draw for children's brains and you're like, yes. But yeah, that's why it's so inspiring.

And I, I think remaining creative and remaining playful and, and daring in, in all of the projects that I try and do is an attempt to recreate that brain, to keep it malleable, to keep it open, to keep it something that is going to absorb things quickly and learn fast, because I, I think if you're a theater maker, you're addicted to learning because every single project, you have to learn a whole different world, a whole different life,

a new set of ways to express yourself, a whole new group of people. Like every single project requires you to, to learn everything from scratch again. And if you're not doing that, or if you haven't learned from the thing before and you're applying that, then you're not making, you know, theater that is progressive or is anything than what you've already done. Yeah. So yeah, I think that's definitely my attempt to stay childlike. I mean, 32, you're doing great. You're doing great.

I mean, like, you know, you're speaking to someone who's 31, so we're, we're on the same page. But I also think that, you know, we are like going forward and, you know, like, you know, you and I have got stable relationships, which is a huge benefit to a lot of our self-confidence and stuff like that, where you just, you find someone as creative or in a different capacity, like, you know, my partner is a musician and singer songwriter.

So like, as well, you know, that kind of like dives into a kind of like having someone next to you who was just as driven and as nuts, like, you know, as you kind of feeds a lot of your, oh, okay, I can keep doing this. Because I mean, like, I don't think Nick's quite as nuts. So he's always like, you're nuts. He's the one that's trying to keep my feet on the ground, which I'm very grateful for. Oh, someone's got to do it. I think if he wasn't there, I'd be off with the fairies.

But it's good to have someone who's a little bit more grounded. I mean, like, because I can spiral. Because yeah, like, how do you, how do you personally keep on top of like your own mental health these days and like everything like that? How do you sort of like stay untuned to it?

I mean, I think it's, I think it's interesting that you, you brought up the secure sort of relationship thing, because I, you know, I'm a, I'm a big relationship person and I've, I haven't been out of a relationship since I was about 15. And Nick went to Dubai in the second lockdown. So he was away for seven months. And we weren't able to see each other because it was COVID.

And so I have seven months on my own, living in our apartment with our dog alone, three of months, which I was completely alone because of lockdown. And it was a really redefining experience because I've always kind of defined myself as with this person alongside, whoever that may be and whoever I'm learning from in that time. I've always learned from my relationships and they've always been very, very different people.

And I think it's because it's always just like what I needed to learn in that time. And Nick is not like that. We're very, very similar in the ways that we are, but we just make each other laugh and have had fun for the last seven years. It's great. We just have fun. But yeah, I think that time during COVID was a really, really necessary time for me as a young adult moving through life going, oh no, I can be with myself and I do love myself apart from that person.

I'm not wholly defined by that person. And I need to understand exactly who I am and know that that person is a bonus to who I am. It's a blessing and it's great, but it's not everything. And I think prior to that, I'd really sort of thought, oh God, if Nick wasn't around, would I survive? Because we are obsessed with each other still and we're best, best, best friends and we're so obsessed with each other and it's great.

But it's nice to know now that three months especially of work doing a lot of introspective investigation and meditation and exercise and just learning what I am apart from my job and apart from my partner was huge. And I think that's probably why I've come out of it the most resilient I've ever been. And I feel very lucky for that and I wouldn't change a thing. But it was pretty hard there for a while. Yeah. Because I'm so addicted to overworking and being busy all the time.

If I don't have a busy period, I will make it busy. I will find some other project that I'm starting or things to do. So not having anything to do in that time and having to take life slow and having to just be with myself was very difficult. But I'm really, really grateful for that time because I think I understand myself much, much better. And now I think I have so many more tools in my mental health toolkit because of that time because I was forced to do it.

Whereas previously I probably, I just kind of go into overdrive and beep and you just keep going. Like you're not taking care of yourself, but it has to be done, so you just keep going. Whereas letting yourself acknowledge feelings and sit in them and understand them and know that it's a passing feeling and that it will end. Metropolis has actually been, it was very scary, but it hasn't been nearly the challenge mentally, like mental health wise that I thought it would be.

And I think that's because I finally got into a place in my life where I'm like, oh, this isn't, it's not the be all and end all. It's a project that I'm very, very passionate about, but I have another project to go on to. It's something that is our first go. We'll go back to it. It doesn't have to be a huge sellout season.

Like I think so much of what I've done in the past has been putting so much of my soul into a project and it having to be the best possible thing in the universe and working so hard at it that I'm nearly dead. Whereas this one, I think I've been much better at being collaborative about, about being understanding of my own needs, mental health wise, about sharing the responsibility and being there for others gives me a great sense of, of yeah, understanding with myself.

And also having this project be 50% another person, you know, having Zara as the other 50% of this project has been awesome because so much of what I do, I'm always just like, you know, it's my project, I'm the director and I'm trying really hard to, like to make everyone collaborate well and blah, blah, blah, but it's so much on one, on me that sharing this with Zara has been really cool. And also learning from her and being like, I don't understand anything about that.

I don't know, I don't know anything about mics, you know, I've never worked in a live musical sense. I don't know about feedback and where those speakers need to be on the stage. I don't know about the balance of the speakers in the auditorium. I don't know how to rehearse in covers, you know, we've never had to do that before. Over calls. It's yeah. And that's great to actually have time and be like, Oh, I don't know anything about this. Fab. Like we're going to learn and that's great.

It's not in my control. I have to just sit back and understand and watch how it and learn how it happens and trust someone else. And Zara is extraordinary. So yeah, I've definitely learned from the best. But yeah, mental health wise, I think, I mean, it can always be better. It can always go like, I think exercise was something that I found in that lockdown. And I started running Noah and I, my dog Noah and I ran together a lot and I loved it. I absolutely loved it.

It took me a while to get into it. But of course we all had time. And I don't do it anymore. And when I got sick, I was in London last year, I got COVID in London and I was like 11 days out. Like it's got me really hard and I was like hallucinating and stuff and I would dream of running. I think it's because that's what my subconscious remembered being the most healthy and feeling the best. So I always say to myself that I'm going to get back to running because I think it will make me happy.

But then you get tired and then you're at the theater every night and you're going to bed at midnight and you're like, am I going to get up and go for a run? No. What do you mean? I'm going to get up at 7am for a run. Before work? No. But I think I'm very lucky that I'm such a people person and that people really feed me soul food wise. And if I ever need anything, I'm always like, I just need it. Like teaching a class is like therapy for me. It's so, I love it.

It just takes everything away from me and onto those young people. And being in a room with people, I love being responsible for how they see their day and making it a good one and making it an empowered one. And I live feeling better because of that. So I am lucky in that way. That's great. Don't stop. You're like, keep running, keep running. Because where do you sort of see, because obviously with Metropolis, you want it to kind of grow.

And this feels like a little bit like your first big baby. Yeah. Which is mildly. It is a big baby. It's a big baby. But taking that into like the real world, which I mean, like there's like this world and then it's like growing it where it becomes potentially like a big auditorium and loads of people see it as like that the aim. Yeah. And I've never really had, yeah, as I said, I just haven't really held on to projects before.

I've sort of been like, that was great for what it was and it deserves to live in that memory. That's what theatre is all about. It's like those people who saw it are going to be the people who see it. And that's it. Because also resurrecting shows is really expensive. And I'm so addicted to making new work constantly that I'm always like, oh, why would you look back? I guess, I mean, this one being my first writing work, I'm not a writer. I am not a writer.

And I know the pitfalls that I fell into as a writer and I want to go back and adjust those and work with other writers to adjust those. And, you know, I'm proud of my direction, but I'd love to make it bigger. I'd love a cast of 30, you know, not of 12. And how do we give it what it deserves? I think it's such an epic story that it deserves to be grown. I think it's very much about, yeah, doing the work justice.

And I know that that's going to require some what I call killing your babies, things that I really like that maybe don't work for the audience or stuff like that. And it just, it deserves some time and space. And hopefully, I think we're going to try and, you know, bring on people who we really trust and love and respect artistically and listen as much as we can and work it that way.

Because, yeah, ideally in the next two years, we'll see it on the biggest stage with more cast and a bigger script and greater score and more musicians. And I think it's so exciting to have an Australian musical that can tell a story that is universal and massive.

And, you know, to have a script that like prima facie, you know, that can go overseas and be told by someone else and it be an Australian work, but it's not about uniquely Australian experience that is potentially sometimes inaccessible. It's about humanity as a whole. Yeah. I mean, the thing I also think would be really cool, and I don't know if you've thought about this, would you release the songs like on download? Is that the plan? A lot of people have asked us that.

A lot of people have asked us that, which is really nice. It's very flattering. A lot of people have been like, oh my god, you have to make a cast album. I need to listen to the music again. And they're right, because Zara's music is astonishingly good. It's just one of those things where there'll be a few songs that I'd be happy to put down, but there are lots that Zara and I are going to want to change or grow. And again, it's another expense.

So putting down a cast album is, it can be expensive and you have to mix it right and you have to get the right musicians in. And I think we want to make sure that we are happy with the text first and the arrangements and all of that stuff before we put a lot of investment into that. But look, we might get three cheeky songs out. Come on, just twist the arm.

Like, you know, because that could probably like, you know, just benefit down the track, like having even one song and be like, here is an example. Because you know, when you go to a few years and you've done maybe a couple of runs and then you'd be like, this is an example of the photos from the two runs we've done. Here's an example of song. And then people go, cool, I want to have that. And yeah, as you say, theatre is such a, it's not profitable.

It's not the most profitable thing in the world. A lot of the time, like has this gone past, like have you broke even or you know? I think we're about to. Oh God. I mean, it's been the most expensive venture I've ever taken in my life. And nothing prepared me for that. I also haven't been making any money during this time of rehearsals and things like that. So do you feel very poor? Very, very broke.

But it feels worth it, which is nice, but it is difficult, especially when you're partners in the project and then also not making any money. So usually Nick and I tag team a bit because you know, when you're an artist, you're doing contracted work. So it's only for a certain amount of time. So if I'm on a gig and he's not, it's not a problem. He's on a gig. I'm not, not a problem.

But when you're both on the same unpaid gig, that becomes a little difficult and we've, we have no savings left, which is fine. We don't need to get married anytime soon. It's a wedding, right? But it feels, it feels worth it. And now that we have the strong bones for this project, I think it can, we can take a little bit more time to evolve it and to spend, to spend more time with it.

I think we will probably do a cast recording that's not so overly produced, just something that's more archival. And you know, later down the track comes a big thing. People love to listen to what it sounded like first and Zara's demos and things like that. You know, there's, I've got all the tracks of when Zara was singing it and sending it to me, which is really fun. Yeah. And we've got a beautiful cast. So capturing their voices is so important.

But yeah, well, we've got archivals and stuff that we're doing in order to, to work with later down the track. And preserve the memories. Yeah. And preserve those memories. I'm very into documenting. I love documenting the process. Not just the product. I can tell because your Instagram is spammed at the moment. Yes, I am a big Instagrammer. I love images. I love, yeah. And I love process.

I think it's really interesting to know how things are developed and why they're developed and how people work together. And I also think that a lot of shows always put the famous faces first and the cast first, which is lovely, but they're seen every night and there's a whole bunch of people that you don't see every night.

So I really like to celebrate them as much as I can and the work that they did behind the scenes and make sure that they feel like they are equal to those who are on stage every night and that everyone is being celebrated through every show. And a lot of that is just, you know, promoting them on social media and showing the process and how much work went in. Oh yeah. That wasn't just on the stage. Oh my God. You're going to nail it though. You're going to be doing it every...

This is the thing though, I reckon like, you know, in a year's time you'll be like, oh, I've got another project under my belt. Yeah. Well, I mean, we've got another one coming up. The next Little Eggs project is The Lost Boys in November at the Seymour Centre. Yes. Which I will be in, which is the first project I've been in with the collective for the last six years, which it'll be good. And I'm working with Eliza Scott, who is an amazing divisor and has their own practice.

And Jane Fegan, who worked with version 1.0, who I was obsessed with at uni. They don't exist anymore, but they were one of Australia's leading devising companies for 12 years and traveled the world before they stopped working. So I'm really excited to work with people who have different practices to my own and to create a work that, you know, is a Little Eggs show, but isn't just... A Little Eggs. Yeah. My style is... It really challenges that style.

And I think being in it is going to be good for that so that I can't necessarily control what's happening from the outside. If I'm in it, then I have to use my own practice and use everyone else's as well. But I'm very excited about that one. I have a feeling it's going to be very strange and dark and very, very different to Metropolis which is great. It won't be a musical. There'll probably be sound and music in it. But in a dark and twisted way?

Yeah. I mean, Eliza does a lot of like live looping, microphone work. They also work with force majeure a lot. So a lot of movement style things. Very expressive, very abstract. Yes. And I think a lot of the things that I want to explore with The Lost Boys is around childhood world building and violence and the joy of violence that you had as a kid. Like, I loved being violent. I was such a violent child. This explains where the anger came from. I'm so dreads barred. You're like, how'd you know?

But yeah, my sisters and I used to like give each other dead legs. That was the funnest thing. You just sit back in the back of the car and just like wallop each other. And that was a joyous experience. Oh yeah. It was fun. And you stop doing that as a grown up, right? Because it's not acceptable to hit each other. It's a shame. But there was such joy in like in challenging the physical boundaries.

It becomes so inward as you grow older and so much about mental challenges and psychological challenges. And I guess that's what exercise does for people. But I think there's a shared experience to have that's between people enjoying that tactile sort of... And also how kids create rules that are just out of thin air. It just has to be that way because it's just been decided. And then a whole world evolves around that. I remember I used to play this game in junior school.

It was called like dragons or something. And you know those little fish soy sauces that have a little red thing? If you like suck the air out of it, you could stick on the end of your tongue. And you had to have that on your tongue if you were the dragon. And I think about it now and I'm like, that's so weird. One of us just did that once and decided that that's how you have to play the game.

And then you were a dragon and then you could act crazy and then you could be violent and be a dragon that ate people and push people over and whatever because you had the red thing in your tongue. It's as simple as that in that world where things are decided on and you're so sure of it as a kid. And everyone's in such agreement. It's just like, that's just the way things are. Children are also so bizarre like that.

And I think also there is this childlike hilarity with having no inhibitions and no sense of self societal worry. Because the only people you worry about is getting in trouble by your parents. That's really the only thing you give a shit about. But I love that because I just remember one of the biggest things I remember was my imagination. There was a great show called Sliders. Yes, I watched Sliders. My sisters loved Sliders. Oh, it's great.

And we used to, so in school, in primary school, we would grab a piece of bark and pretend it was the remote and we would go to different points or different worlds. And I just thought, God, this is so much fun. And I remember the first year we were in year, there was occasionally there'd be year five and six stage plays and you'd be able to write things. And I was reading a series of unfortunate events at the time and I wrote a Christmas adaptation in year six.

So there are little things that I think kids do and we're all sort of like, I had this sort of thought a couple of days ago where I think the most interesting people have sort of gone through some sort of level of trauma. Totally. And, you know, all fucked up. We've all gone through some sort of level of, okay, well, this has solidified us and made us who we are and really grounded us.

And I think you and I are very similar in that we're very positively, outwardly happy people but very angry on the inside of social injustice because of just kind of like either the things around us that have impacted us or, you know, like for you, it's like, you know, sometimes growing up in certain regimented way or, you know, like however life is decided for you and especially because, you know, that is what kids perceive. They want to, you get to this teenage hood and you want to rebel.

And I think those are the more interesting things because I love watching, you know, that's why we relate to coming of age stories. Because then we remember that whole, you know, and I can't wait till I'm like 70 something and I just go, I remember being a teenager and then like, you just remember the cusp of it because you're so old and you don't quite remember because it was 50 years ago. Because like everyone thinks, you know, all your parents will remember being a teenager.

They sort of do, but they've had a lot of life since then. And they've had kids, they've had you, like they've had so much. And I think that's sort of like, I know when I'm going to be a parent, like that's something that I'm going to experience where I'm like watching the kids grow up and, you know, like having that experience where it's like, this is going to be fun.

But I mean, like that's also the balance, like having your life and, you know, and being a creative artist, but also like the juggle of having a family. Like have you ever thought about having a family or is that a no? Oh God, I have. I keep reminding myself that I have to get my eggs checked this year because I am 32, no matter how much the mirror tells me otherwise. Yeah, it, look, it's something that we definitely want.

I think so long as I'm being so aggressively obnoxious with my career, I can't afford it. I mean, yeah, generally we're getting more and more stable career wise and that's good. We've got a three year old dog and he is everything. And until that stops feeling like enough, I think we're okay. You know what I mean? It's tough. I mean, it's tough because I do, you know, someone like Christie Whelan Brown is very open about being like, you know, if you're over 30, you should get your eggs checked.

And it was hard for me. Because a lot of performers have kids later just because your career is, if you're not there, you're not constantly pushing it can disappear quite quickly, especially in this industry. So yeah, I think this year I'll get my eggs checked and probably freeze them and then worry about it later. But I do love kids and I love the idea of having a family, but I'm still, I still feel like there's so much for me to do before I'm ready for that.

I have so much more in my career that I want to push for and that I want to try. And even, you know, even over bumping, the dog was with my mom, you know, he was with grandma for those two weeks because you're working 9am till 11.30pm every day for those two weeks and you can't look after a dog, let alone a human.

Plus, you know, if Nick could carry the baby, it would be great because he'd be so good at it and he'd wear luxurious caftans and like have baths and maybe we'll get up from him in the bus. And I'm really going to struggle with that. Like I am not going to be a good pregnant person. I don't like the idea of physically not being able to do things. I don't like rest.

Like I, yeah, I think it's going to be one of those things where I'm not going to enjoy it as much as everyone says that, you know, it's a blessing and you enjoy the pregnancy glow and whatever. I'm like, that sounds frustrating as hell. Whoever says that is wrong. Oh God. I, yeah. Whereas Nick would make an excellent pregnant person. Well this is like why we need to turn into seahorses and like, you know, just- It would be so much better. And I'd happily look after him.

But no, I'm a very proactive person and I'm on my feet constantly all day every day. And I'm, that's where I'm happiest. So I know that taking time out and taking time to be physically different is going to be hard for me. So yeah, I think until, until we are really sure, like when we got the dog, we all said to each other, we need to be really, really, really sure that we want this. Like we want to want it more than anything we've ever wanted. That's when we're allowed to get the dog.

You know, it's always a nice idea. But until you're absolutely prepped and absolutely sure, don't do it. And so we saved up heaps of money. Like we did heaps of research. And it took it, it was a whole year of really wanting that dog before we got him. And it was the best thing ever. We still were absolutely not ready. Like he arrived and I was like, that's too small. Oh my God. I don't know how to look after it. It's going to die.

And he cried for like 72 hours when we first brought him home and it was hell. And I was like, this is, and apparently a dog at eight weeks is a child at nine months. And I was like, Nick, nine months of whatever this eight weeks has been is the most horrifying thing I can think of. I also don't deal very well with no sleep. Like I'm a, I'm like a hit the hay and bounce back kind of person. But if I can't sleep disaster, I've just become subhuman. I'm getting so many insights. I know.

And that's the thing is that I'm like, I love kids so much and I want them. And I used to, I remember being, when I was younger, I was like, Oh, if I'm really rich, I'm going to have four kids. Because I love them and it would be so great and it would be awesome. But now I'm like, that sounds so hard. Like the older that I get, the less sure I am. Yeah. I think it's a lot of being pregnant. That's like, it's either you have twins. Which sounds horrible.

Or you're giving birth four times, which can also be a lot of strain on the body. Yeah. Um, cause I, I grew up with somebody who had like eight or nine. Holy moly.

Yeah. And a lot of humans, but you know, like so many humans, but I mean, it's also kind of like the thing when you do have a lot of like, you know, I think I know when personally with my parents, um, like they had me at 30, like I think my dad was 32 and my mom was like 31 and you know, like they were just like, well, you know, like, and they have my brother at like their late twenties. I mean, I'm 31 now.

I don't expect to have kids until I'm 35 and like Ms. 28 and we're not like, Oh yeah, we've got to, you know, like. But it is kind of that whole, Oh shit, you know, and everyone talks about it. And like, I hear all the horror stories. Um, but you know, but then there are people from high school who just have like four kids now. I know. And I'm like, wild. That's wild to me. I couldn't look after a kid at 22. Goodness. No. Yeah. I would drop it.

And I mean, that works for some people, but it terrifies me. I think it terrifies me because I love kids so much that the concept of just not being capable enough already enough is terrifying. I want to do a really good job. And you're like, that's a real person that you are bringing into a strange world and it's a big job. And I know that they'll become your everything. And then it's just, yeah. Concepts of losing yourself.

And make sure that you're in a place that you're comfortable enough to do that. And yeah, terrifying. I will, we will eventually, but um, this year it's, it's eggs freezing time. I think it's too much career stuff to do. Oh, you're like, I've got a whole life to live. Oh my God. I think my mom had my sister at 28 and like, honestly, between 19 and 28 was a blur for me. I remained 19 until I turned 28 and then I was like, Oh, my back hurts. I'm 28. Oh yeah.

My, my 30th birthday, my leg went seeing, I was like down on the count and I had, I never run at work was like, Oh, did you drink? And I was like, I had one drink and I turned around on the spot. My knee went click. You're like, that's, that's aging. I've now officially old. Yeah. No. And it's also like the fun thing I like telling people is your metabolism is fucked as an adult. You can't eat as much as you'd like to eat because suddenly you just go, Oh, I'm really bloated today.

And you're like, feel sick or you can't drink as much as you used to. Oh God. No. Cause this thing called a hangover happens. It's awful. It's awful. I hate hangovers so much. I, as a teenager, I used to go out every day except Tuesdays. Every day, every night I was out somewhere. Yeah. Now I can't do it. Mental. You know, I remember I used to- Why was that enjoyable as well? What was I doing every night? What they weren't, I wasn't hanging out with different people. It was like the same people.

Crumbas. And also like, how did I afford it? Like all of my babysitting money was just going out every single night and drinking like, Oh, I honestly, if I have more than three drinks, I can absolutely feel it the next day. Yeah. I, I, I like only have now one and I leave it. It's safer. Yes. It makes you sound really old, but we, we, we are 30. That's what happens. It wasn't, I promise it's just what happens and it sneaks up on you. And then you're like, Oh God, I feel everything.

Yeah. And then your knees start to click away, just all down. It was like, it was the idea I got to, before we wrap up, I remember yesterday I had to do kneeling for a scene that we shot on the sand dunes. And I was like, literally every time I moved on my knees, I was like, these are sore now. I was like, this shouldn't happen because I've had years of training, but my knees now as an old person start ache. Yeah. Can't wait till I'm in my fifties.

Yeah. And wait till you introduce a child to run after. That's what I feel like I need to be fit for. I'm like, I need to start running if I'm going to have a child. I need to start doing boot camp or something. Oh my God. I can barely walk up a sand dune. Although I can do a set of stairs. I'm fine with a set of stairs, but anything harder than that, I'm out for the count. Right. We both need to go Pilates. That's the 30 year old's exercise.

My final question for you, Julie, is where can people find you on the internet? Where can they stalk you? Okay. Gosh, probably my Instagram is the best place to go. I've got the absurd name of Jouelzybabes88, J-U-L-Z-Y-B-A-B-E-S-A-D-E-Eight. But my company, the Little Eggs Collective, also has an Instagram that is very active. It is collectiveeggs is our Instagram. Or you can find us on our website, littleeggscollective.com. But yeah, that's me. I'm mostly very Instagram active. Yeah, you are.

I love images. You do? I love it. You do. I'm going, what have you posted today? There's so much like, I think it's just encapsulating your vibrant colors. Yeah, that's me. Yeah. Nuts. Love it. I love it. We're both going to get sectioned. But no, thank you so much for joining me. It was an absolute pleasure, Janne. Oh, thank you for having me. I'm sorry if I came across a lot, but that's who I am. She's a lot. Oh, never, never apologize. Firm and assertive. I love it.

But if you want to go and check out more of these episodes of The Things We Do, you can check them out on Apple and Spotify. I'll be speaking with another guest next week and I'll speak to you all later. Bye!