You know, it's weird hearing people on different mics, but I'm like, also the same sort of mentality. I think different mics do better things for different people. Cause I think if you were to do a podcast or a radio, radio play or music, it really depends on the voice and what microphone suits that voice and that dynamic. Because some microphones are better for some people.
Like I would only ever use because of my voice range, probably like ones that have a lot of bass and can pick up that bass level and depth. Because they compliment my voice more. But if I had something which was more about the high ends, I'd be like, why did I get a mic that picks up like high ends? It would just be no point. Yeah. And I'm sure that like the same principle applies to you when you sort of do like any form of dealing with microphones.
Actually, I bought my microphone kind of blind. Like, I got a Neumann mic. I bought it like online and I picked it up from Taramara Music. And I was sort of looking at YouTube reviews and other Google reviews for quite a while, or like a week or two weeks or something. And I think the thing that swayed me to this particular mic, I think it's a TLM 49. I kind of forget like what I have. Because you know, like you look through so many different ones and you can't, they all like blur into one.
But this one, I heard a particular live cover, like a woman who I thought, yeah, similar voice to me was doing a cover of this song. I was like, damn, it sounds so beautiful. And so that kind of was what pushed me to get that mic. Yeah. Do you think, do you think like, have you listened to yourself sing into it and talk into it and sort of like, have you loved it yet? I don't know. I mean, it's good because I don't actually use a pop filter with it.
Because it doesn't seem to pick up the S sounds like my old mic did. And it was so nasty. So it's sort of got a softer top end. Yeah. Which I think is good. For me, I think it's like pretty easy to work with. Like it sounds pretty good and it doesn't require a lot of mangling or like working with it afterwards to get it to sound good. Like in the mix. Yeah. That's good.
From what I can tell, like, you know, this is the things we do podcast, a podcast about film, life, television, culture, mental health, and all of that fun jazzy stuff. Today, I've got my special guest and friend, Isavina. Hello. Hello. Thanks for having me. No, thank you for coming on. Now, first major question, I'm going to get you to tell the internet and all the years and people who don't know you, who you are and what you do. Well, I didn't prepare for this one. I'm Isavina.
I am a music producer, songwriter, singer, performer. What else do I do? Just those things. Yeah, I can't even, I'm drawing a blank, but I think that's enough. I also organize the Ableton news group, Sydney. Ooh. I work at APRA AMCOS where we look after musicians' rights and songwriting royalties. I think that's most of what I do. Goodness. That's actually a lot. Yeah. You're like, oh, I do, I don't do that. I'm like, oh, I'm not going to do that. You're like, oh, I do, I don't do that much.
I do a lot. I mean, like what came first? What was it? Cause like where, cause royalties is a whole other, whole other movement in terms of music rights. What came first in terms of interests and trajectory, I guess. I started with like in primary school with like school band. Did that, moved into orchestras in my teenage years and loved being in an orchestra. Like I just loved making sounds with other people, like in a big group. It's amazing that feeling.
And I was kind of at a crossroads in like year 12 being like, oh, should I do music as a career? Oh, that sounds crazy. Right. Or should I do science? Cause I love science and I'm quite good at it. Something in me just couldn't quite bring myself to go to, go to uni and study science. Like I think I knew even back then I would regret it and I would always wish I had done music. And so I decided to honor that at the time. And then I went to uni and I studied music.
I probably didn't need to go and study music, but I think it was good for me in a way. Like going, going to uni is like a great experience. I mean, there's lots of negatives about uni, like the debt and like all that sort of stuff. But there's a lot of positives, like it gives you a lot of time to think and learn. Yeah. Without the pressure of like working. Cause it's kind of understood if you're a student, like you're studying, so you're not working full time.
Like, no. And that means you get like lots of spare time to like watch TV and like, sort yourself out and think about, think about things like, like, what's the best way to do it? Like, sort yourself out and think about, think about things like have a lot of free time and work on whatever you want to work on. I guess. Yeah. I kind of wish I used more of that time. I only really kicked myself on the ass in like the last year of uni where I was like, right, we're doing this now.
I was so scared before that. Like, I didn't really believe I could. I thought I was too old, even though I was only like 20. Was that a, do you think a confidence thing? Or do you think it was kind of just comparing yourself to like others that you see in the social world? Yeah, like definitely comparison, which is why I try not to compare myself anymore. But like people like flume that we're producing since like age 11. And I was like, well, I haven't even started and I'm 20.
Like I've run out of time. Cause with like women in particular, it's like, there is that kind of, it's so terrible, but like when you're like kind of age out of the industry. And I was sort of like, oh, you know, it's too late. I don't really believe that anymore, but it is something that people think, unfortunately. And like, feels like 30 is like the deadline for females in the performing arts industries. But yeah, I don't believe that anymore.
I think like there's plenty of artists that have like Caroline Polacek who's in her late thirties, who's amazing. And I think it's like kind of for the better that, that it like, she's matured, she's worked on a craft for so long. And it's like for the better for the art that she's making. And now she's finally getting an audience. Anyway, this is a long tangent. I love it though. Thank you.
So coming back to uni, I decided in the last year of uni to do an honors year on production creative process. Yeah. And that was purely because I wanted to work towards my honors year while spending as much time as possible in the studio. Cause at that point I was like, yeah, I really want to be a producer because I want to compose music. Yeah. But be able to like shape the sounds and hear it right then, not like writing for an orchestra where you're like kind of imagining it.
And then you'll have to like send it off and then they'll play it. And it was like very kind of intangible, I guess. And yeah, I was like, yeah, I really want to be a producer. I was really loving some different electronic artists. And I just was like, yeah, well, if I'm doing it, I'm doing it. I'm going to put in like, I put in lots of hours at the studio in that year. And because it was to my honors, I was like, it felt like it wasn't all about the studio.
It wasn't all about me or it wasn't all for me. Like it wasn't as much of an ego thing. It's like, well, I'm doing this honors year anyway. I may as well do something that I'm interested in because it means that I will probably get a good mark. Yeah. As opposed to trying to force myself to do the right thing, whatever that is with like academic stuff. Cause yeah. So I did that and it went really well. I ended up getting like a HD. Wow. Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. Honors is hard though.
After that, basically it was like, all right, what am I going to do now? And it was in a weird time. It was kind of really hard to find work at that point. It was like 2019. So pre-pandemic, there wasn't many jobs going and there was super competitive. It's so weird to think about that now, but it was, and I couldn't find like works. I was doing temporary work. I was working on like the elections. Oh, wow. Yeah. And so they'd just be like two or three months sort of temporary contract things.
And then I'd have nothing. And then I'd be like, okay, time to work on music. And then I get another sort of contract and then I'd be working on music. And that was how it went for a while. And then yeah, I was doing like temporary reception sort of stuff. Like it was pretty shit actually. It was pretty shit actually, like I just get called up on the morning of, and then I'd be sent off wherever to do my little reception job for the day. Oh God. Yeah. I was like, ugh. Yeah. It wasn't great.
Like I just didn't like not having a routine or knowing where I was going to be or knowing if I would have anything on. Cause it would kind of like the night before I'd be like, okay, another day to work on my music. And then at like 7.30 that morning, they'd be like, all right, we need you to go there. And I'd be so devour of like, oh man, no, I can't work on my music today. Yeah. Anyway. And then obviously like pandemic hit and there was none of that work anymore.
Cause office is closed, blessing in disguise. But no, I was like really at a loose end because I was like, what the hell am I going to do now? Like there's really nothing I can do. I can't get a job now. Like it's pretty much impossible. Yeah. At least until this, whatever this is. Subsides. It blows over because we didn't know how long it was going to last. And unfortunately, like it wasn't a very productive time. I know a lot of creators felt that way.
Like even though we had all this like extra time or in some cases, like limitless free time, didn't like, didn't really happen. Yeah. Which is a shame. And then after that later on that year, I joined a course, I'd say like an online course called Finish More Music. Oh yeah.
And it really like broke me out of my rut and gave me like a structure to start like finishing some of the ideas I'd had and like start making new ideas and kind of like, it was like a really nice sort of tie into my honors thesis in a way, like creative process. And then this is like a course that's kind of like similar, but specifically for like dance music. Oh, cool. Yeah. Yeah, it was really cool. It was a good find.
And I'm still with them and the way they, like they've got course materials on their website, but they also have a Facebook group. And so every month you can submit up to two tracks you've been working on that are like kind of in like 80% finished state and then people in the community give you feedback on it. Oh cool. And in return you give feedback as well, but it's like structured. So the feedback, there's like five questions you have to answer.
So it's like very structured and it's very clever. That's great. Yeah. And so just going through that like every month just really helped to get me back on track. And then improve my skills and get multiple perspectives. And I mean, during all this time, like, I think my, cause talking about feedback, I'd be sending my music to friends and family and the sort of feedback you'd get, we're just sort of disheartening.
Um, just cause they didn't know how to give good feedback and that it wasn't to their taste and all that sort of stuff. And yeah, like back then it probably wasn't that good, whatever. It's all right. But like, um, yeah, like I was going somewhere with this. Yeah. No, I like, I like it where it's going. I mean, I do, I do think that also, you know, do you think that was a confidence thing as well?
Because like, you know, you know, pre pandemic as well, the confidence, you know, you clearly growing confidence on, on how you output stuff and how you see yourself, but you know, pre pandemic, I think there's a lot of, you know, as you say, there was a lot of competitive nature and I don't know, there's still a little bit of that today where it's like, you know, everyone's still trying to like break it into the industry and everything.
But I feel like, um, maybe it's the self reflection and, and opportunities that you've had that sort of see, you know, especially because I know you're on a personal level, but I see a lot of you know, it's sort of benefited you to kind of have that self reflection period and be like, okay, well, you know, you know, time does help and time, you know, working on your own projects and having like, as weird as it sounds like having a pandemic kind of gives
you the opportunity to reflect, even though it's not great and you have like months of, you know, not creating it's kind of the beneficial thing. Cause then you can stop, find out what's, you know, like that course and everything that's, you know, trajectory really kind of pushes you back into what works in your own mind and your own taste and then get feedback, which, cause I mean like constructive feedback is great.
A lot of the problem most people have and family and friends just kind of, it's, it's from a, you know, an audience perspective. Um, and while that's great, it doesn't really give you the opportunity to be like, you know, because audience perspective, I always feel is a little bit like, you know, some people are going to love it and hate it.
Like it's not, you know, because that's the point of taste, you know, it just varies from person to person, but you want family and friends to be just supportive. Yeah, definitely. Like this is swinging to like my latest song. I sent it to some of my friends on release day and one of them was like, oh yeah, it's nice, but I like your other stuff better. And I was kind of like, I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do that.
I mean, I do always appreciate honesty, but it's like, I do think, and maybe it's just cause I've been doing this for a while. I think it's so important to support people on release day. Um, and if, you know, a week later, you want to say maybe in person is probably better. It's like, oh, you know, I like to track, but I do like the other one. I think I like the other one's better. That would be like, oh, okay.
But I think, I think it's important to like support people on release day or like at the gig and try and be really positive. I think it's, I think it's, I think I agree with that. And I think it's also just really good to support people regardless. Um, because what's it saying with like, when we create stuff, it's like wearing your heart and your slave kind of thing. Cause I think, I don't know.
And not, this is not every creative, but I feel like this is like, I think it's like, I feel like this is more us, um, then, you know, then some, but you, we're very emotionally driven people. So therefore emotions kind of, you know, we validate ourselves through our output and what we've done and creatively how people see it.
Um, but there's pros and cons to that, which is like the pros are, you know, you can either be excited and elated that everyone loves it, or you can have one bad criticism and it just like, topples you. Um, and I feel like the thing that I've noticed, especially like listening to your music over the course that we've known each other, it has gotten progressively better and cleaner.
And I think I can tell your skillset has gotten better and from a, you know, like a good mix and, you know, and, and the way it's written and the way it sounds. And I think that evolution is very interesting, but I guess when people don't always have that evolution and they don't understand that evolution that someone's gone to, and especially because artists evolve, we change, we're constantly not going to be the same as our previous work. Um, you know, and I think, cause then that's boring.
Like we don't feel like we move on as artists. So it's kind of ironic that friends are going, Oh, I don't like it as much as your old work. Like, do you feel like that's a little bit of a, Oh, should I just remain the same? Or is that what people want? Or should I, or, you know, do I do what I want? Um, yeah, I did get another comment from another friend who did say that she preferred my dancier stuff than the pop music. Um, but I'm just like, Oh, okay. That's fine. Whatever.
You know, like that, that new song is kind of like my first pop track. So I'm like, yeah, I mean, it probably, yeah, it could be better. Like I know that, like, no worries. It's my first pop track. Like, of course it could be better. But I mean, that's trial and error. That's like, it's still really good, but like there's elements that I think about now. I'm like, Hmm. Yep. I can, I can see how I could have improved these little bits.
Like, I won't like list them all off, but, but, but, you know, like you with time and like distance, you can, and more experience, you can hear like the different things that you could have done better. Yeah. But I'm always thinking like, there's so many people that are so scared to even release things and I just don't care. I'm like, I'm just going to put it out. It's good enough. It'll do.
Like, you know, people have resonated with it at the live show before, before it's been released on the platforms, like Spotify and all that. And so it's like, yeah, yeah, it's good enough. I know my vocal performance can always be improved and that's okay. That's fine. Like that's the journey, I guess it is hard though. Sometimes I cringe when I listen to my voice. And I find it really hard in saying, in saying all of this, I find it really hard to listen back to my own music. Really?
It makes me very uncomfortable. I wonder, is that a self-reflection thing? Do you think? I don't know. I think it's like, I'm so close to it. Like, it's sort of like seeing myself naked. Like, I don't know. I don't know how to describe it. It's just like, oh, I don't want to look at that. Like, yeah, I don't know. Sometimes I might listen to my voice and I'm like, oh, I don't know. I might listen.
No, so I think what it also is, is like, I love performing my music and I'm like, hell yeah, this is great. As soon as I switch into becoming a consumer of my own music, something about that just doesn't feel right. I think, yeah. I think that would be very like, if you did that and you consumed your own music for a constant like, nick of time, it's kind of like, I don't think any artist is really comfortable. Otherwise, you're incredibly vain, I think. But it's the same.
Like, I think it's interesting. There's a level of, I can't watch too much of the things I've made over and over and over before I kind of go, oh God, I see all the faults with them and stuff like that. And I think while it's nice to get feedback, I'm definitely not sitting there going, you know, watch all my stuff. Like, I just kind of release it and then hope that people enjoy it and stuff like that.
But I think it's like when you nitpick everything, it really does kind of like spoil it for you. And I think you'd be mad. You know, I think it's also just how we see ourselves. Like, because there's a little bit of imposter syndrome and they must be with you as well. Because you must still think that little you versus big you now and the sort of dissociation when you hear something, you know, of music that you've written or listened to your voice.
And there must be a little bit of like imposter syndrome when that does well and people go, oh, that's really good. And you're just like, that's nice. But like, you're not thinking yourself, I guess, up here in the high, like the high status where everyone, you know, where I guess, you know, it goes back to that thing of making it and becoming, you know, an independent artist and everything. I think while you don't see that you are one. And but is that imposter syndrome?
Like, do you feel like on a like a daily basis? No, no, I don't. I don't get that too much anymore. But I guess in certain situations, I get it more. Like when I'm playing a gig, I feel pretty good usually, but I might feel nervous like in the lead up like during the day. But when I'm actually doing it feels pretty good. And I don't feel like a fraud or anything. I'm like, yeah, I belong on this stage. Like, fuck yeah. Sorry. Yeah, no swear, swear, swear, swear. Don't worry. Love it.
But like on the flip side, and I have no problem like coming on a podcast or doing stuff like that or like hosting the user group. I'm like, yes, I do belong here. But like when it when it kind of kicks in for me is like at a industry conference or something. I'm like, I don't know if I'm quite ready to be here or if I'm on the same. I'm in the same league as these people. Like industry conferences are so weird. Such a weird mood.
Like everyone's trying to like sort of suss like who you are, like where you're at and all this. I think that's where the competition kind of comes in a bit. Yeah. So they're interesting. And I always feel like I should put myself out there, but I'm like, no, it's just, it's just a weird, weird vibe there.
Yeah. I mean, like it's interesting as well, because I feel like there is this sort of big, you know, when, when you meet execs or you meet like people of like certain kind of a caliber, it is very weird. You do kind of see this sort of like, oh, but I think it is also because everyone's from a business perspective, like you're trying to find a, you know, you're trying to be a product and you're trying to be sellable. And that's, I guess a little bit more, it doesn't feel like art.
It feels like business. Yes. And I think that's where it sort of goes stale for me when it's in everything becomes about, I guess profit. Yeah. It's like cognitive dissonance kind of thing. Like, what's this? Isn't this is weird? Like, I think you're sort of mentally shifting a bit and it's like, oh, no, this isn't me. But you sort of put in this situation where it's like, sell yourself in 30 seconds, like your elevator pitch and it's like, nah, I'd rather just like get a coffee and chat.
Yeah. It's, and rather than going like dress up to the nines, hoping that someone would be like, oh, you're, you know, I literally went to the conference, like pretty much how I am now, like with my jeans and like ASIC sneakers on and I felt really bad. Really? Yeah. I was like, oh, I should have dressed up like white because I just wanted to be comfortable. Cause I was like, it's probably going to be a long day on my feet.
And then I was like, Ooh, there's some people that have really like dressed up and they look legit artists and here's me like really sort of feeling a bit like an imposter because of that. Yeah. So I don't know. That's a tidbit for you. I mean, do you, I guess with the, you know, it goes back to that comparison thing and always comparing yourself to others, even though you don't do it as much, but I mean, you know, that's the prime example, isn't it?
Like when you go to a conference and you're sort of like looking and comparing yourself to everyone else, um, like you see it, you know, Emmy awards and you see it at like constantly, like when you got, you know, like social events and stuff like that on, you know, and I guess that we have that very American vision, um, of the industry as well on Australia.
I don't know if it's just like my lens on everything, but I think that Australia really, you know, in terms of the industry, especially in the music and the arts industry, like once you become a profit to someone, it's, it really takes you away from the independent artist and
the creative freedom that you had. Like, would you agree with that when a lot of, a lot of, sometimes you feel like some artists don't have as much creative freedom anymore because of like labels or, you know, who they've signed up with? Um, I'm not sure. I think labels like can control things like release schedules. Um, so like timing of releases and, um, I guess they would have the power to say no to a lot of things. Um, cause they control the budget basically.
Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, cause I don't have that firsthand experience and I don't know a lot of people that are in labels, so I haven't been able to hear those conversations. So I'm probably not the best person to like give you a definite answer cause I'm just like, I don't know. I don't know.
But would you, would you feel, I guess then my next question to that, would you feel like you should sign up to a label and then have, you know, or do you feel like you enjoy being, having that creative freedom at the moment? I think it would be pretty good to be in a label. Um, but you'd have to like really negotiate the terms of that, I think, and be really careful. Um, yeah. So I don't know.
Yeah, it's tricky, but I think it's probably, I think the benefits would probably outweigh the negatives, but like, you've got to make sure that they're going to do stuff for you. And they're not going to try and control you. And you kind of get like, like, I don't know, be really clear about what they're going to do for you. Like, are they going to do two albums or like just one or cause like, if you can lock down like two albums, I feel like that would be really good. Um, yeah.
Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's the dream, isn't it? Um, but no, you should like, you should push for that. I think. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like I, I, I absolutely agree. And I think that, you know, it's kind of one of those things that I just remember, like a lot of people wanting labels, especially when like left high school and was like, if you're in a band or something, or you're an independent artist,
everyone was like, Oh, I can't wait to like, you know, sign up a label. I think it's also because I graduated in 2010. So it was like, there was a lot less like digital platforms. There was like an Apple, but no one knew how to get onto Apple, like as a platform. I think it's, I think everything's much more accessible now than, you know, like, especially because streaming is such a easy
interface. Like you can get songs on the Spotify pretty easily now. Um, yeah. And people do listen to it and, you know, and it gets a lot of critical feedback as well as, um, but I think back in the day, it was kind of like, it was such a negotiation to get anything on like platforms. And I remember just going to a lot of friends, like little launches and getting their little CDs that were clearly recorded on like, you know, those rewritable discs that you bought from office works.
And well, it was great. Um, and it feels like so long ago, I think the ability to kind of like look through my Apple music and or Spotify and go, Oh, okay. I've got, I have music. I've got like, you know, I can scroll through what I've got in terms of artists that I personally know, as well as artists that I don't know. And I think there's a lot more like freedom, I guess, to
quickly type in a name. Whereas back in the day, you couldn't find, I remember I couldn't, not for the life of me find some of my friends bands, even though I knew they were on like, you know, garage. But, um, I was that site. Um, uh, there was one site that used to be kind of like, just dump your music onto, I can't remember what it was called. SoundCloud? No, SoundCloud was one
of them. But there was like a few sort of like low end. And I remember like, um, you know, like Double J and Triple J were the sort of like, um, but you know, um, unearthed and everything like, and that's where some people got their music on. Um, and you know, they're all great platforms, but I do remember like, you know, back in the day, it was like, I guess there was a lot more creative freedom to who got what on. Um, but now it's sort of like a really random choice about
what you hear on the radio. And like, I have found some of the best music by just happenstance, like by, you know, like it's not quite as simple as just listening to the radio anymore. It's kind of just scrolling past and the algorithm goes, these independent artists you might like because of, you know, they listen to this, this, this, and this, you have similar tastes. So it will kind of
list you how you want and who you want to see quite quickly. Have you found like that be an interesting thing, especially like in terms of, you know, your own input to your own music now and listening to artists that necessarily you wouldn't have thought of? Not really. I found the opposite. Like I find that Spotify doesn't really give me any new people. Like it'll really give me a lot of the same people I've been listening to. Um,
yeah. So that's been like at the last little while, cause I've started listening to like the happy mix, the moody mix, the whatever mix, because it's sort of like a mix. Like sometimes I just want a mix of music for when I'm like going for a walk or working or whatever. And cause I don't know, sometimes I don't want to commit to like a full album or something or like, I don't make as many playlists anymore cause I have so many playlists, but I sort of have stopped trying to
curate. Maybe that's because I'm not finding the gems because Spotify is not giving me the gems, but um, you should write a very lengthy email to Spotify saying, give me some gems, give me the gems Spotify. Um, so how do I find music? I don't know. I don't. Really? I don't think so. Like, I think the only real thing is like, if you're listening to like Sam Fender, who I love and you're, maybe you've made like a playlist of like four Sam Fender tracks. And then when it goes to
the end of the playlist, it starts the playlist radio. So then it gives you songs that like sort of might fit on that playlist, but aren't on the playlist. And that's like probably like the ideal discovery for me. Um, cause yeah, like a lot of the Spotify playlists I'm not super into. Um, yeah, I don't know. Like I was rinsing like indie pop that Spotify plays for a while. Cause I love that sort of sound and um, but yeah, there's some other players I'm not really that into that
Spotify have. And then there's lots of stuff that I just listened to over and over and I feel like I'm not getting any new sort of stuff. I don't know. It's just, I wish I was, but maybe it's also me just getting old and I just want to hear the same old 40 songs. You're hardly that old as well. Like we sound like we're like fucking ancient and you're just like, maybe it's just me getting old. Um, but no, I do agree with that. I do, I do think that you
kind of, I guess, yeah, it's like, you limit yourself to what you can listen to as well. Um, I do think these platforms are built for the young though, like super young. So, you know, like, are we making, are we making content for the next generation? Yes. Yeah. Cause like you'll see the Spotify playlist and like the little captions they have, they're so Jen, whatever Jen Zed or zoom or whatever they call it. They just look so zoom and I'm like,
okay, so this is where we're at. Like in the last like year or two, it's like switched. Yeah. I mean like it does kind of always make me feel really old when, you know, like, um, my cousin's kids are
like, you know, 12 and 10 and they're telling me about things that I don't even know. And I'm like, oh my God, I actually am old because, you know, they're telling me about music and, and, you know, and stuff, especially like, I guess, you know, I remember listening to music that was made in the seventies and sixties with like my parents would listen to it because that was what I grew up with. So it was like, you know, in the car, you'd have the cassette in the tape player and you just listen
to what my dad had on loop. Um, and I guess now with the amazing free access and you know, um, it is easier for kids to just kind of like discover artists, but they're also like, you know, everywhere, like friends just recommend music now. They're just like, oh, I heard this great song on YouTube or I heard it on like blah, blah, blah. So they'll just send it to, um, you
know, each other. And I guess like, I feel a little lost as an adult of what, cause I didn't, I, I didn't, I didn't have digital like platforms or, you know, really a CD collection until I was about 16 and now I feel very old. Um, I still have all my CDs, but I like never play them. Cause you know, it's like, it's all on Spotify. So what's the point, but are you a classic person though? Do you still like collecting CDs? I used to, but I haven't, I've stopped myself,
which is probably a very good thing. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's fair. I mean, you know, we do live in the digital age. Um, I mean, when you make music though, like, do you have a good filing system? Do you have a good, um, no, not really. It's pretty, pretty shitty. I'm just trying to think of what I do. I like label the project file by date, reverse date, 2022 month, day, day. But the thing is like, when you're like starting a song,
you have no idea what you're doing. You're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, when you're like starting a song, you have no idea what it's going to become. And so the sort of name that you'll give it will just be like bumpy groove, something really dumb. Like it's going to be nothing to do with what the song will actually be. So it can be hard to sort of like looking back through your sketches and being like, what the fuck is this? So I think I'd like suggest to like
bounce out. And I don't even do this, like export the track is into like a web file or an MP3, whatever, and have it in your folder. So instead of having to open up the whole project, which can take like 30 seconds or something to load up, you can just quickly press play and be like, oh, that's what that is. I need to get into the habit of doing that. Like I've been thinking
about that for ages, but I don't know, maybe I just haven't felt like it. But I can say like, I would, in the past, I would spend like 50 versions on a track, like save as 50 times or more now, six or seven. Really? Yeah. So it's massively dropped. Yeah. Do you know why? I think, well, I'm probably saving as a bit less. So mostly for like major changes. But I think I'm working a lot quicker, getting stuff done quicker. Yeah. That's interesting.
I wonder if that was like just, yeah, it sounds like a confidence thing that you just know quicker what works. And I guess when we're younger, we're hesitant. So we're like, here's about a hundred files that we can make sure we've got in case anything gets corrupted. And you'd like agonize over the smallest choices and be like, I'm going to save a new version just in case. And it's like, okay, well, calm down. Yeah. So I actually have on my new computer, it's got like two terabytes of
storage because I was like, I think it's going to serve me well. I don't want to be scrambling for storage because that was a thing with my old computer. Yeah. It was always like jumping at the top of the sort of like upper limit. Like it was way past what I should have like the operating kind of ideal. I think it's like ideal to not go past like half the storage. And I would go like pretty much to the full because it was only like two 50. And I was like, that's nothing for like a
music production professional like myself. And so that was also why it was such a noisy computer. Yeah. I mean like, you know, cause when did you, you, what got a new one this year? Was it this year that you got the new one? Could have been like the end of last year. Oh, okay. So like 2021. Maybe. Yeah. I mean like, you know, um, but I also think that, you know, when you get a new computer and you know, like it is true because my computer's like capacity is like, it always warns me that I've
too much storage and like, oh, that's right. I have like limits on this wonderful device. Um, but yeah, this is like the problem why it crashes. Um, but it was sort of about like something about files that, you know, in terabytes worth of like data that you strip from it, you know, um, whereas back in the day, I don't know, like used to use floppy disks to kind of install music. It
was like, you know, like your computers couldn't handle half the stuff way that it can now. Um, so it is like amazing that we can have like two terabytes of, you know, worth of storage on a computer. Whether, whether that's, yeah, as you say, sensible to kind of go past your half limit. Look, yeah. You know, if you don't want your software to crash, sure don't. Yeah. Yeah. That's the only thing I say. I mean, like in terms of file storage, it's fine, but you know, when you run
software, it run, it uses like 50% of your storage base already when it's running. Like it's amazing, but insane capacity to need about half your storage base to kind of run itself. Yeah. Cause there's so many like plugins and background things it's cognitively doing. So it's like, so much smarter than we are. I know it's like, it's thinking 10 times harder. Um, but yeah, because it does all this file system and sort of organizing your files and extracting information from it. It does make
it very hard and very easy to crash. Like have you been halfway through a song and it crashed? My new, my new system is pretty stable. Oh, that's good. Which is wonderful. So no, not for a while. I mean, it was pretty bad with the old one. Yeah. Yeah. What's, what's been the horror story that while making his tongue? I don't know if there's been horror stories. I can't even remember, but I do remember this is sort of like, it's not a horror story. It's just
like a pain in the bum. Like when I updated the software that I use Ableton to the latest on my old computer, on the laptop, um, it just wouldn't like open like old files from the previous iteration, like live 10, it wouldn't, it wouldn't open in live 11. Oh wow. Okay. Like, like I actually want this stuff in these old files, old project files. Like I want to be able to access that. And so I don't know. It was like some weird thing with one of the plugins
that it was not compatible with live 11. And so it was like forced quitting. Like it wasn't even opening. It was like loading up the program. Boom, crash, try it again. Boom, crash every time. And I was like, Oh my God, what is going on? That was a pain. Oh my God. Yeah. And it's all fine now because of the new. Yeah, I think so. I mean, it's just cause like, I think I might've, as I moved things over to my new system, I think I might've not moved all of the old
plugins that are no longer compatible, I guess, with the new software. And so since they're not on the new system, they're not causing trouble. Oh, that's good. Yeah. That's good. They're not causing trouble anymore. I mean, like for you though, and in terms of, I guess your next like 10 years trajectory, because you talk about the finite of time. And I want to bring us to that finite of time. Do you see, where do you see yourself in the next like five, 10 years?
Or where ideally do you see yourself? I don't know exactly. I mean, I would like to sort of start playing bigger events and festivals. I think that would be great. Get some radio play, that sort of thing. Maybe do some writing for other people, producing for other people and writing for screen as multiple sources of income. Maybe do a bit of touring, maybe do some teaching. Hmm. So yeah, hopefully all of those things. What are you most nervous about?
Um, actually making it. Yeah. Yeah. You don't feel like you've already made it? Making it on a bigger scale. Okay. Like, yeah, I do feel successful. Like I'm doing gigs and sounding great and all that and releasing music. And that to me is a success. But if I actually make it on like a global scale, that's huge then, then that's like terrifying.
Are you prepared for then fame? Fame, because you know how they talk a lot of the times when people, you know, like not everyone's used to that level of fame, especially when you really well, like how do you balance that for yourself? Like, are you ready for everyone to know who you are? Well, I mean, I guess with some artists, like they're not that famous and I don't think I'll ever be that famous. Um, but I'll probably, well, hopefully be like somewhat respected and
like have an audience that's not like, yeah, I don't know. It's, it's like, I don't expect to be like a super necessarily super mainstream artist, but I hope that I will be at least kind of recognizable, like Caroline Polacek, who I mentioned before, who I guess is still doing pretty well for herself. But, um, yeah, I don't know. I feel like there's a lot of artists now that are like on lots of festivals, but they're not like the big pop star types. And they're still
really appreciated by like the young indie crowd. You know what I mean? Yeah. But it's not like every, every mom and their three year old would like know, like who they are, like Taylor Swift or Dua Lipa or like, yeah. I mean, like Taylor Swift is also like a phenomenon as well. It's sort of like, you know, it's like Billie Eilish. And I remember years ago, and this actually wasn't even
that long ago. I remember when Billie Eilish was a supporting act. Oh yeah. I actually, um, a few years ago, um, there's this thing they, I don't know if they still do it on Triple J, but like on Good Nights, they have a thing where you can be a guest selector of three tracks. So you get to choose three tracks that they play, and then you do a little spiel. Like you record yourself talking about them. Oh yeah. This was like maybe five years ago, maybe, maybe more,
four or five, six. I don't know. And one of my tracks was Billie Eilish, Ocean Eyes. Oh no, no, it was, it was her other one at the time. The one where she's got a belly ache. That's the one. Oh yeah. Belly ache, which was one of her like really early ones. And I was just going like, yeah, Billie's so cool. She's just like murdered a friend and they're in the boot. And yeah, what a bad ass bitch kind of thing. Like, um, played on the radio, but I don't know.
Um, play it on the radio and they did. And I was like, God damn, look at her now. I know. Like, I can't believe I had to sort of like be the one to like, cause they weren't playing, they weren't playing her on the radio really at that point. So I was like, yeah, you should play her. And I'm like, well, I know it's, and it's, and it's weird now because it's sort of like, you know, you, you know, tickets sell enormously for a huge amount of price, but you know, um,
it's one of those things. And I think that, you know, like someone, you know, I think she's also being very well looked after by her and her brother and her family. And I think they've kind of like done the smart thing where they're not trying to be like too much in the limelight all the time, because she's hyper aware of how damaging that can be when you're constantly use their articles
constantly all the time and everyone's sort of criticizing you for how you dress. But I definitely think that, um, yeah, when she was like, um, I remember one of my coworkers years ago, like I'm talking like maybe even four years ago was just like, Oh yeah, I've been listening to this artist Billy Alice. She's like, great. And I was like, who? Like, and now like everyone's heard of her. So it is kind of one of those things that, and I remember it was so funny because she recently
just had her concert in Australia. And I remember I did not see a single person who I didn't, I didn't know who had not gone to her concert. Like everyone had gone and just an attendant. I was like, Oh my God, like, I didn't go, I didn't go. I was pretty, pretty sad. I missed out on tickets. I mean, I just didn't even know she was coming. I kind of knew, but we were sort of like hesitant
to buy tickets because they would have been outrageously expensive. And I mean, like, I was like, I, you know, had she come for Florence's highest, um, highest hope album, I would have seen her at domain live as a sporting act, but unfortunately I think there was, she couldn't come because she was sick. So that was the only reason, um, or there was a clash. There was something about a clash anyway, her, she couldn't come her and her brother. So it was like, this is
a shame. I don't get to see an artist that a few of my friends are talking about. And now everyone's going to, and we're like, Oh my God, Billy. Um, and it's, I guess for me, it's so weird as well, because there's a bit of, um, I want to say enjoyment out of these artists, cause I, I admire a lot of different artists for a lot of different things, but I guess same with Taylor. I don't put
them on pedestals where they're like larger than God. Like, and I feel like a lot of fans do, they put these artists on pedestals and you know, then it becomes a little bit like, I guess it's, it's the reason I turn off social media because when people just, you know, it becomes less about appreciating the art and more about appreciating like the glorification of the artist. And I guess that sort of like subtracts from it because like one of my favorite artists is Aurora. I love
Aurora. And, but I also think that she is particularly less talked about than some other artists. And I, you know, I think that's just because of, you know, probably circumstantial and you know, maybe one day she'll be known by like literally everyone in the sun. She's still pretty famous though. She's done really well like on TikTok recently. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like
TikTok's the world. Yeah. Um, but you're like, do you think for yourself as well? Like, are you hoping that people never kind of put you in this glorious God kind of complex, you know, or go to your shows and be like, Oh, you know, I, Sabina like, and just know you for that personality rather than the, I guess the stake of your own music. Yeah. No, I've always wanted to be like a legend for the music. Definitely. But not for the figure. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, I don't know.
Like they're sort of one on the same in some sense, but yeah, I'd rather it be more about the music. I think cause I'm just like, man, I'm not even that interesting. Like as a person, like never say that. Nah, but I don't know. Some, some artists, I feel like, Oh, I don't know if I should say this, but like, Peach PRC, like her whole like thing is her persona. And the music to me is secondary. Yeah. And that's sort of how she got really famous because it's all about her story and
she's been through what she's done. Like the drama that's like kind of where, where it's all built up off. And then the music is sort of like an extension of that. Yeah. And that's not what I would want for myself. Yeah. Yeah. I mean like that's totally fair. And sort of, I mean, that's yeah, you really, you really don't want it just to be the only thing that people kind of gravitate towards you as your story. Like, and I feel like would there be ever a time where you just, you
know, you'd take a break from live performances and then just solely release online? Yeah, I guess. Like I think I was doing that for a while before I started doing gigs, obviously, and during COVID. Yeah. Not that I released a lot during that time, probably only like one or two songs. But yeah, I mean, potentially if it, I usually go by what I'm feeling. Like if I feel like I want to do that, then I would do it. I try and do what I want and- Which is great. Yeah.
I mean, you know, that's the, that's the challenge. But yeah, like I guess, I guess the thing, and it's also like the thing is, you know, your persona and presence, I guess when people know you personally, and then when people, you know, know your stage persona, it's a little bit different, you know, like, and are you sort of intending to always keep that, those two things separate? Probably. Yeah, probably. Yeah. I mean, I'm pretty quiet. So going on stage, it's actually really easy for me.
Which is interesting. Yeah. It's really easy. I've got the mic, I'm in control. I do my thing, do the stuff that I can't do as Gemma, which is my real name. So as I sub in, I'm like, well, you know, they are separate. They are separate. Yeah. They're different. Yeah. Which doesn't mean it's not authentic. Yeah. But it's like some of the stuff I've written about didn't happen at all. Like, I wouldn't
have probably done that. Like, it's just what I was really, you know, not, or maybe not feeling, but I was like, it was a small part of me that I very much enlarged. Yeah. Which I mean, as my, what's that creative liberty? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Creative licensing. Yeah. I mean, like, you know, because I think knowing you as well and having those two separate worlds as well, it's very interesting to see how you can, you know, you can, you know,
sit down with you and have coffee versus like see you on stage. It's like two very, you know, I know they're the same person, but they're also two very different people. Like, you know, and I guess you're very good work in a crowd, but then when you're, you know, you're in your own world, it's a little bit different. You sort of want to keep as far away from the crowd or just enjoy the moment with people rather than, I guess, necessarily be the center of focus.
Yeah, that's true. So I think that's why I like performing because it's like my little time to sort of do my thing. And then I'll be like jellyfish away sort of like into the background. Yeah. Well, not background, but like not, I'm naturally not the loudest, like I'm a little soft spoken or medium voice as you like to say. I have the very medium voice, very crisp medium voice.
Yeah. So, but honestly, like, I feel like my voice comes through best through my music. And sometimes like in general conversation, I don't feel like I have the best things to say, or like the most knowledge about certain topics and sort of like, I like to listen and not talk shit, like pull stuff out of my ass. Like, I don't think that's authentic to me. Like, yeah. I mean, that's very true. And I don't think you've ever been sort of want to pull stuff out
of your ass left, right. And send up. But no, I mean, like, I think also, you know, and I, I, I sort of disagree with you in the fact that, you know, I, you know, oh, you're not interesting or anything like that, because we've had very much in depth conversations about all sorts of things. But I definitely think, I don't know, it's, it's one of the things that I've been trying to do is like, well, how many people do you want to listen to that, to that, you know, come and say,
because I feel like we all have stories, we all have opinions, we all have life. And that's part of what makes us unique is people and individuals. And I guess like the one thing, you know, I like, I have this all the time where, you know, like, people go, oh, you know, back in the day before, like, I really had an online presence, people like, well, what are you like, what are you doing?
I only know you as sort of like, like two things. And now it's like, oh, actually, you know, you like several things and you know, you have a following or you have like, you know, a platform that you talk about and you know, and everything. And I think that makes us more, you know, connectable and, and you know, like approachable. But I mean, at the same time, I think everyone has a story and I think everyone has like an, an opportunity, whether they think they do or not.
To tell that story. And I think that it depends how you, you know, because we only shape our own stories as well. Like, you know, we're in control of our own stories, whether, you know, you talk about like social media as being like a bit of a fuckwit in terms of how they tell the stories or, you know, the different angles that people take and strip information from you. I think that's poor, I guess, journalism or poor sort of, it's a very biased opinion of, of the people that
are in control of the story. And I think that's a very biased opinion of, of what actually happens. And it's like a he said, she said, they said kind of like scenario. Whereas I think when we're in control, like, you know, and that's why I think a lot of the time now, what we say is really important because, you know, it does give, you know, people inspiration. It does give people like, you know, justification, whether you think it does or not, because, you know, at the end of the day, we all
have a purpose and, you know, there's like something we're all inspired to do. We only live once, I guess, depending on your spirituality and everything. But like, you know, there's one life and we do it
and we kind of make the most of it. And I think it's kind of nuts, that aspect of it, especially when we're like in a creative field, it's kind of like we're projecting whether fictitious stories or real, you know, stories of what we're trying to say is in a, you know, as you say, an extrapolation of some small event that happened or something small about yourself. You're still telling some sort of version of a story. But as artists, we're kind of just, you know, that's the point. We're
making it bigger than life. We're making everything sort of big. And that's exciting, but it also kind of makes us very grounded because it's, you know, it, you know, like, it's like that heart on your sleeve kind of thing. We are more emotional than, you know, those business execs who come to a party
and try and sell a product. And I think that, you know, that's where it comes important to be an individual and be hopeful because it's like, well, you know, I think, I don't know, I think it's like also really important as like artists, you know, that we are as, I guess, transparent as we can be. Like it's probably the most accurate way. You know, like we're not like completely C3, but we're mostly a transparent asset because people want to believe in something.
And I want, you know, like whether you have mental health issues or anything like that, you want an advocate to kind of make you feel better about yourself or, you know, like that's why we listen to music. That's why we watch films. They make us feel better about our own lives and, and you know, necessarily the shit that goes, you know, because we all, I think, I think the thing I admire about you as well, if you, you know, from a personal perspective, um, is, you know, throughout your,
you know, you're very much like upfront. You're always a very upfront person, which is interesting because you don't, you, you know, I guess that's kind of a quality of you that probably not a lot of people see, but you're very upfront with things and very honest and open and just kind of like not being around the bush kind of person. Do you agree with that? Yeah. I mean, you're not the only person who said that to me. Um, yeah, no, I've had people say
something brutally honest or like painfully honest. And so I decided to tone it down a little bit. So it's, you know, honest, but kind, kindly honest, kindly honest. Yeah. Cause sometimes I like accidentally maybe hurt someone's feelings that didn't happen too often, but sometimes if someone
was particularly sensitive, I'm very sensitive. Um, so now just sort of like tuning into that and tempering it and, you know, maturity, like you learn things as you grow, like how to, yeah, how to like talk to, talk to people in a way that they'll listen and not get hurt or cause like, you know, obviously you're not really trying to hurt people, but sometimes if you say something like the wrong way, you know, people can get offended or get hurt. So yeah, yeah, definitely
like trying to be more delicate with stuff like that. Um, but yeah, what was your question? I like, I don't even, I just loved that you answered that. And that was kind of like the basis of a question. But I mean, like, yeah, I think, I think also with, with that and you know, like being, being so brutally honest, I think it kind of makes you more approachable as well, because then you sort of don't, you don't get the fictitious like, like nothing's not true because you always know
where you stand. Yes. Yeah. I mean, even when I was really young, like I just didn't lie. Like I, I, yeah. I mean, I don't try because I, like, I know that I wouldn't be able to pull it off at all. So I don't lie at all. Like I don't lie at all. Um, if I do have to give someone, like, like I said before, like if I have to give someone a hard truth, I'll sort of just be like, yeah, I don't know. This is just my opinion. That's always a good one. So it's sort of like,
like, you know, like this is just what I think doesn't mean it's right. Like, you know, um, I forgot the question again. What, what were you saying? About brutally honest. Yeah. And, and you know, you're, you know, whether you're, you know, like your opinions and how you approach people. Oh yeah. So I don't see the point in like, not being honest. Like it doesn't, it feels like a waste of time. Yeah. It's like, I'd much rather just communicate. I think that's what it really comes down to is
communication, like authentic communication. Um, and just being clear and like knowing, like, yeah, even if it's something that's hard to take, it's like probably better to just be clear about it. Hard, hard pill to swallow. Yeah. In the end, it's going to save you time. Yeah. I mean, I guess as also, you know, cause you, you know, I want to bring us back to, I guess,
you know, the whole aspect of being a woman in the industry as well. I mean, do you think you've had to deal with a lot of like hard truth that people have tried to give you or sort of like, cause you talk, you talked a little bit about like, you know, there's always a finite amount of time for a woman. And I guess that's, you know, true, but I think it is changing now. Like it's massively changing and I feel like, yeah, do you feel like there's a lot of hard
truths that you've had to deal with or sort of like circumstantial? Like, I mean, I think it's a lot of hard truths that you've had to deal with or sort of like circumstantial, or do you think you've just kind of like brushed those off at the side now? I don't know if anyone has ever said specifically those words, cause they would probably get like me too out the door. Yeah, I know. It's just like a impression that you get or like the vibe, the vibe sort of thing. Yeah.
You know, different things that other people say, it's never explicitly said, it's just sort of understood what gets played on the radio. You sort of see and blah, blah, blah, but yeah, there was like, I think on Instagram and little movement, like a year or so ago, women who are over 30, like sort of sharing their story of how they got aged out of the music industry, how once they turned 30 radio stopped playing them, they stopped getting, you know,
like opportunities and things like that. Or they get like relegated to double J. Oh, I'm being really specific now. Love it. I'm going to utilize that. Oh dear. Hope that doesn't get me in trouble, but. I feel like that's an accurate statement though.
Yeah. I mean, it's interesting as well, because I feel like it's based entirely upon physicality and, you know, I guess attractiveness, which is kind of the shitty side of music industry, because looks should not really dictate how you, your work succeeds. Yeah. Yes and no. I think it helps. I think it helps if you have that thing, whatever thing is the it factor, the star factor, like I think it helps. And that's probably what makes the difference.
Cause there's so many people out there trying to do the same thing. Like it comes down to those sorts of things. Cause there's always someone that can help you sound a bit better. Yeah. But unless you get plastic surgery, like. Do you think you'd ever go down that route? No, no, no. I don't think so. I think it's good to like embrace what makes you like different and because so many kids nowadays like need that and they love that. They're so more accepting.
Like I think young kids are so much more accepting now of differences and like queerness or being trans or like any sorts of like, diversity or being different. They're so much more accepting than when we were young. No, we're still young, but like when we were in those very tender years, when it mattered, it's different. I think it's different now, even though like obviously there's a lot of toxicity on like TikTok and stuff, but in general, I think it's way more accepting.
I mean, absolutely. And I think, you know, it's interesting as well because I feel like there's, the younger and younger generation, you know, like keeps going back by that people make a lot of, you know, decisions earlier and earlier and earlier and know themselves a lot more at a younger age versus, because it's not shamed. None of it's shamed anymore. Like there was a lot of shame going around in high school where I remember it's like, you know, and I feel like
there was very set in stereotypes. Like people did certain things, you dress certain ways, everyone was sort of like a certain category. You listen to certain music, like that was what we were told. And now it's like, nah, you can be anyone. And I feel like, you know, what's that saying is like the older generation are eventually going to die. And that's like the blessing. But it's true. A lot of people who are like very bigoted will eventually die.
And, but yeah, like, I dunno, it's, it's sort of inspiring, especially like, you know, making content for, or, you know, giving people hope who were younger than us that they're not alone or they, you know, because do you feel like what are things that you would have told young you that now you know about yourself? What would you have told your younger self? Here's some advice. And here's, here's, you know, here's where you're going. That's a great question, Marty. Like, whoa.
Throwing you the deep ones. Well, I mean, I didn't, I probably didn't realize how sensitive I was until my psychologist told me. So I probably would have told myself to go to therapy a lot younger than I started. Probably would have helped a lot. Just to like help you work through your things without like obsessing about things that don't really matter. Cause like a lot of depression is just obsession about negative things in a way, like all things that happen in the past that you can't change.
I'm not saying I was particularly depressed, but like, there was moments where it was like a bit like that, if that makes sense, like, ah, I should have really like, let go of certain things. And yeah, I mean, that's probably what I would have told myself was like, try and focus more on like the moment and try not to ruminate too much about the past or worry about the future too much. Cause like, a lot of us suffered from like quite
severe, like doomsday anxiety, I think. Some people's like, a lot of people still do, a lot of young people are going through that now, but I sort of tried to let go of that. Cause it's so unhealthy for your life. So bad for you. And it's like, it's not gonna, feeling that way is not going to change the world. You're going to change the world by feeling good. Really? Like it's where you're in your power.
Yeah. I mean, you can't, and you know, like I'm not saying you can control always that, but I see, I think, cause you know, like depression comes out of like also managing chemicals in the brain and everything, but I do agree that like, you know, it's because of those imbalances that you do kind of like, unless, you know, thinking about positive thoughts and trying to think about it, I guess, going forward when you're constantly focusing on the
events that previously happened, they sort of dictate how you feel and you can get yourself into a rut where it's suddenly, you know, like, you know, unfortunately the pandemic happened. A lot of people who were very clinically depressed ended up taking their own life. And that was a major result of being kind of by connection, you know, like, and I, and I think it's a reflection of how, you know, the world was and not how it is now, because I think like
therapy is, or praise the therapist, right? It's a great resource, but I mean, like there's so many things like, you know, like, um, you know, lifeline and you know, there's men's mental health, there's, um, there's women's mental health, like lines that specific for those needs. There's, you know, um, safe zones that people, you know, from, um, situations that they don't feel
comfortable going to can go and stay. Um, you know, there's, there's so many like access nowadays, or as you know, like I remember particularly when we were kids, like, and I remember my dad, you know, now is taking medication and, um, but I remember when I was a kid, he didn't, it was therapy was not on the high list of priorities that he was ever going to consider.
Yeah. And now it's like something that he considers and is on meds and you know, is lives a very happy and healthy life, but you know, it's one of those things that had he said, um, years ago, oh, I'll never bother with that stuff. And it's always funny when I guess I hear people who don't believe that therapy, even if you're not in a, you know, like you don't have to be clinically depressed, you know, like you don't have to be clinically depressed to go to therapy. Sometimes it's just
really useful to get diagnosed with like certain neurological conditions. You know, a lot of people actually end up discovering that they've got like ADHD or, you know, um, uh, you know, slight version of autism or, you know, on the spectrum somewhere, you know, um, and that's fascinating because I think it really kind of makes up a broader spectrum of people and differences, but when you never want to touch a therapist, I think that's when you live in a very kind of like, and you don't believe
in it is kind of, what do you think of other people who do it then? Like, what's your real thought of that? Because then you must think that everyone's overdramatic. And, and I think that that's really negative because it's, everyone has their own way of dealing with things. And whether, you know, you're, um, you're use therapy or you use like, um, you know, uh, I guess herbal, um, uh, remedies, or, you know, you, you see, uh, you know, um, I guess someone like a crystal bear or something
like that. I was like trying to think what exactly like that is, but I mean, like, I think that everyone's beliefs and how they handle their own sort of like well-being is massively important. As long as it doesn't like negatively affect others, which, you know, is where it comes to, because I remember like back in the day before it was on meds, man, was my mental health like
spiking. It was like a, a massive like overhaul. And now that it'd been on, you know, like, I don't think the meds are the only thing that's sort of like, but I think a lot of external, like it was something that my therapist said, which was when we have control of our external elements and, you know, and we just put those to the side and we don't, we don't let them sort of dictate our day-to-day
life and we don't let them bother us and we control our in, you know, what we can do about ourselves. Then you'll feel better because the external factors of, oh, someone just, you know, was rude to me at the coffee shop. I can't do anything about that person at the coffee shop because they're just going to be an asshole if they're in a bad mood. What I can do is how I react to that situation, which will then put me in a better mood for later. If I try and go, you know what? No,
I don't know about that. I'm going to move on. But, you know, I remember back in the day, anything would set me off. It's like just falling apart. Like, will you, do you feel like you, you're better at managing just the day-to-day routines better? I think I'm actually a lot busier than I used to be. That can be a bit difficult, but what I do is I meditate every day, 20 minutes or so, and it makes everything a lot easier. I'm
much calmer, less reactive. Yeah, it's like, I feel like I'm more in control of my own thoughts. Generally, I think I'm more positive. But, you know, there's still like worries and I could be like more carefree, but, you know, we'll get there. You can't be like that all the time. Yeah. But yeah, no, definitely like I'm way better at managing my own mental health, for sure. I feel like I'm in control. Whereas before I didn't, I was just like, whatever whim, whatever thought came
in. Oh man. Okay. Shit. I feel kind of shit now. Yeah. But I was also really good at having positive thoughts as a teenager as well. I was like, oh, isn't this world amazing? And then other people would be like, but X, Y, and Z, I'd be like, oh yeah. But no, now I feel like I've really kind of made the separation between self and thought and not kind of identifying with thoughts. That was a big discovery for me. Yeah. So that separation of like, you exist apart from your thoughts.
Like that's just like a little new and going off in your brain. Like that's not who you are. So learning that separation was like a big deal and learning that you could actually control what you think about in order to influence how you feel was another big thing. Learning to recognize and sort of see yourself as separate was something I learned from it. I think meditation and a book called The Power of Now, which sounds silly, but it was a really good book.
And that was quite eye-opening. Yeah. So you just like use it as therapy, kind of like a therapeutic book. I mean, I guess it's probably more like self-help or something. Yeah. But it's not like I was using it in place of therapy. Yeah. I think I was starting therapy around that point. It's always good to have self-help books as well. I always find like, you know, a little useful advice. I love self-help. Yeah. I think it's great. Yeah.
It's a unique perspective. But I also think it's very good to have that outwards perspective. But I mean, I agree with that. Like I'm probably a little bit more of a self-help book person. I agree with that. Like I probably should meditate more than I do because it does help. Oh yeah. You know, like I do a lot of Pilates and yoga. So that also helps. And I think that's like when you're sort of mindful of your own body and kind of like what you're doing day to day. Yeah. It's
very easy to kind of keep a top of everything. Although that's not to say that I don't have spouts still to this day, but it's a lot easier. Yeah. Than almost like say three, four years. Yeah. Yeah. See, and you'd say the same. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Definitely. That's good. Like, yeah. And like you learn how to like self-sue that space, say like, learn what you need, learn what your triggers are. And that will help you to identify when you're maybe running away
with like a worry train of thought or something. And it's like, oh, I'm worrying about this because it's one of my triggers because of this experience. But it doesn't mean that it's like necessarily true or that what I'm worried about is going to happen because it's just like the tendency that you have. You notice like, oh, that's my tendency to think those things. But has that ever happened? Yeah. Well, actually, no. So you just be like, oh, that's my thing.
You sort of like, yeah, I do that. I know you like accept that. Yeah. And be like, yeah, I know that I do that. That's what's happening right now. Being able to recognize that as a pattern. Super helpful. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my God. That's awesome. It's like really like self-aware. Yes. You know, I guess that comes with age as well. Like we all grow up and become more self-aware. Yeah. But I definitely think that, you know, some people out there are not that self-aware.
So it's really good. And I, you know, it's interesting because yeah, it does mean, I don't know, like not everything kind of gets to you. It's just not this overwhelming, you know, world. And we're able to slow down and sort of able to step back and realize, why am I going to create the next project without like going down the rabbit hole of self-deprecation or, you know, or self-negligence or, you know, because I feel like that's so easy to, as a creative artist
as well, to, you know, lack of self-care. And it's always very important to have self-care, especially when you're a creative, because creative energy goes hand in hand, like into your projects. And, you know, I've definitely got days where I forgot to eat. Oh no. Oh, I always eat. See, you're good. I always eat. Yeah, no, I never forget to eat. I'm like, what's next? Yeah. What's the next meal? What's the next meal?
Oh my God. So now I'm like trying to focus more on like choosing healthy meals that are like, have enough protein and making sure I eat enough protein. Cause that's actually really important. I didn't, I didn't actually understand that. Cause I've got PCOS and like protein is a big factor in like trying to balance blood sugars and stuff like that. So I'm like, okay, that's, that's really
helpful to like actually know that. And I do feel a difference, like when I've had like a good breakfast with like eggs and like wholemeal bread, as opposed to like just the bread, like with a bit of peanut butter or whatever. It's like, yeah, there's definitely a difference. Anyway, that's kind of going off topic a bit, but- I love that though. That's now we know that Isovina's breakfast routine is like this. Well, ideally not always. No. Yeah. What's your standard breakfast though?
Probably at the moment scrambled eggs on toast. Like a bit of avocado. Oh, look at that. That's like breakfast connoisseur right there. That's like, that's like going to a cafe every morning and- Yeah. And the finest- Put a little bit of cheese and scrambled eggs and yeah, it's pretty good. You're making me hungry. I'm getting hungry too. I know, just thinking about food. Yeah. But I'm going to use this as a perfect point to wrap this up as well. I've got so many more
questions I want to ask, but there's never enough time. Isovina, where can people find you? Where can they stalk you on the internet? Oh yes. I'm just picturing that. I'm at Isovina Music on Instagram. I have a YouTube channel, which has like my music and some videos that I made myself, which is kind of fun. Spotify, I'm Isovina, I-C-E-V-E-N-A. And it's also like all my music's available on like most of the major platforms, like Apple, Spotify, SoundCloud, YouTube, whatever.
You'll find me. Just put it in Google. You'll be right. Just type it in Google. Yeah. You'll find it. Yeah. Thank you so much for joining me. It was an absolute pleasure. Thank you for having me. It was great talking to you, Marty. Anytime, anytime. And if you want to go and check out more episodes of The Things We Do, you can check them out on Apple and Spotify. We'll be speaking with another guest next week and I'll speak to you all later. Goodbye.