The Things We Do... - Interview with Holly Fraser

This is the Things We Do podcast, a podcast about film, life, television, culture, mental health and all of that fun jazzy stuff. Today I've got my special guest and friend Holly Fraser. Hello. Hello. How are you? I'm great. It's great to be here. Lovely to be talking to you. That sounded very like an official podcast intro. Yeah. I was like, wow. I wasn't prepared. I was going to say, even though I knew there would be an intro coming. Yeah. You're like, what do I say? Who am I?

So Holly, because some people obviously on the internet who are listening to this episode will know who you are. Let's assume the majority don't. Yes. That's a safe assumption. Tell everyone on the internet who you are and what you do. Yes. So I know a bunch of different things. I grew up as an actor. So I started acting when I was about 10 and every now and then I still act, but I sort of don't pursue it as much as I used to. But I'm also a filmmaker.

So I direct, produce, sometimes write and I first day day quite a lot as well and run a production company for corporate videos. Yeah. It's lots of different things. And I love doing lots of different areas of film because I think if I just did one, I'd get really bored. But yeah, but I'm currently doing a master's in directing at afters.

So I am honing a bit more in on directing, but yeah, I'd certainly would always want to continue producing, always want to continue doing a bit of acting as well. Very checkable trades right there. Yeah. Sometimes. Because I remember years ago, I don't even know, I think I saw you perform in the Seymour Centre. Oh really? Uh huh. Like this was, I'm talking probably like 2018, 2019. Yes, something like that. Maybe 2017 even. Yeah. Potentially.

I was working there at the time and it was one of those things that, you know, because you were in our show there, you get free stuff to watch. So you were in one of them and I was like, oh, who's that? Here's your name. Let's just Google who this is. And back then we were all kind of still in like the end of school, so no one really had much of a portfolio. Yeah. We were all just like, I hope someone notices me. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Well, yeah, that play was, that was a great production and amazingly lives on. It's this collaboration I was part of where people from a bunch of different countries around the world came to Sydney and we made a show. So people from Portugal, Italy, Germany, French Canada, British Canada. I think that's it. I'm probably missing one country. Portugal, that's it. And then we made a show. We had 11 days to make it and then we were going to be going on stage after that.

And we did, and it was actually a really great little piece about, it was a refugee story told through the eyes of a child. And we really lent on the fact that there were collaborators from all over the world. So there was people speaking different languages in it. And it was like, as the child, I played a 12 year old child in it. I didn't understand them.

And it was kind of meant to be a metaphor for like when adults speak and the kids don't get it, but also different companies had specialties like physical theater or digital stuff. And we incorporated the strengths of each of those into the piece. And it was really unique and cool. And then that went on to go to Canada and Vancouver. It went to the Commonwealth Games. It also went to South Africa. Do you feel like there was a bit of surprise as well to kind of like stay with it for so long?

Yeah. It's like, theater is different in Europe. And I think that that's so like, they have such a better perspective towards it where they really value theater and they find ways to make it happen, even though theater often doesn't bring in so much money and it's so hard to make and take so much time. But they have a lot more grants for it. They have a lot more emphasis on it. And they do so many really interesting things with it.

Like there were stories I heard from some of the production companies involved where they would put the audience in the middle of two sides of theater so that the audience can decide where to look. Or they had a theater where when you enter the actual theater space, you have to duck down a little bit to get under the doorway. And then when you step up, your body opens up physically so that you're embracing theater.

Like it's all just these tiny little things where they're so interested in the arts and theater and it's a really interesting perspective on it that I think maybe we're missing a bit of in Australia. But because of that, the lead production company of that play, they're German and they just seem to keep finding a space for it. And they're really excited about it, enthusiastic about it.

Whereas I think like in Australia often we make a play and then it's over and that was great and now we're on to the next one. Yeah. We're very much rinse once and then never repeat. Exactly. Which has its own kind of joys to it. It happened that one time, it will never happen again and that's special.

But it is like once you invest in the time to make a piece and in this case have people come all from around the world to make it, like, you know, it's great to keep redoing it and also it has different relevancy every time it's put on. Yeah. Global space as a political piece. So yeah, it's I think it's really exciting. That's awesome. Yeah. I mean, like that's a long time to stay established or something, but I will say like, you know, because that would probably feel like a full time job.

Yeah. Oh yeah. That just pops its head up every now and then we do it for like three weeks and then I don't we don't do it again for another couple of years. So yeah, it's cool. Like it's just a little nice surprise to see everyone again and bring this character back to life. Forever perpetually a 12 year old. Yes. But I mean, like, you know, that that means that, you know, acting has never really stopped for you, which you know, like, because that's very different.

Because I mean, like, you know, I remember sort of just being like, oh, okay, because I remember, what was it, the short film you're in, which was set during the apocalypse. Yeah. And like, if anyone hasn't seen this film, I think it's Waltzing Matilda's Girl. Waltzing Tilda. Sorry, Waltzing Tilda. And then like, it's just kind of a weird art see very strange film. I love how it was made as well because it was just shot really early in the morning when no one's really around. Sort of.

But the director of that who also did all the VFX is an absolute wizard and can do anything. And so sometimes there were people all around and he's just gotten rid of them. So I'd have to do the take, we'd leave the camera there and then we just keep rolling and then he'd rotoscope everyone out because he just needed a section of that locked off shot that he could cut, like find an empty part and then use that. Oh my god. It's amazing. Yeah. And, you know, it meant things moved a little slower.

And then he's so clever that he then tried to hide that by adding in camera movement later. So like the framing was always a little wider so that he could put that movement in so it doesn't feel like it was a locked off shot where he's cut people out. He's an absolute wizard, Jonathan Williamson, and we work together a lot actually. We're trying to pull a feature film together. And yeah, we've worked together many times since then. Yeah. Did that because that film is fun.

Yeah. It's a very bizarre film. Yeah. And it kind of popped up on my radar. I think just by chance. I think I saw it on YouTube as well. It did really well on YouTube. It did. Yeah. And was it kind of like, oh, I know this is going to do well from the get go? No, it was a surprise to me. I guess because I actually don't really work in genre spaces as a filmmaker. Like I'm very much like a family drama, get to the heart of like a relationship kind of person when I direct and produce mostly.

But this piece, it had such a specific niche audience in that genre piece. So people go, oh, it's a story about someone who's the last person on earth alive. And they're like, oh, I'm in, you know, like, and so it did really find an amazing audience. It went to so many film festivals around the world. Yeah. Did amazingly. And yeah, I cannot quote the number of views on YouTube because I can't remember, but there are a lot.

And it got shared by like other people and they seem to get even more views, which the director was like, yeah, I'm good with that. So people are saying it. I mean, that's how you make revenue really. How many eyes are glued to it? Yeah, absolutely. And then now you direct and you produce and like, was that the funnel vision of where did that change direction change for you from being actor in front of the camera to, you know what? I like the behind the scenes stuff as well.

Yeah, it's a good question. I think it came out of like acting so hard and it's like, it's so hard to get work and you give it everything and you make, you know, you take a week off of everything else you'd plan to work on an audition that you're really excited to get this role and then you don't get it. And then like you, it's the pursuance of acting is incredibly hard. And I think I just needed something to be putting energy into outside of that at the same time.

So I was always intending to continue acting, but then I decided to go to film school. I went to Sydney film school in 2015 and I loved it. I loved being behind the camera and yeah, I walked into that course, which was a very general course, very practical where you just started making films and I wasn't quite sure what area of filmmaking I'd be most interested in. I actually thought I'd be, I really wanted to be a production designer, but I can't, so I can't draw at all.

I can't really do anything artistic. So I actually found my skillset was really well suited to assistant directing and producing because I can be very bossy and controlling and like have a hustle to like make things happen and also like directing as well. So yeah, I think, I think directing came from working as an actor a lot of times, but wanting to have a role in telling the overall story in those pieces and feeling that directing would give me that opportunity.

And I think I have a superpower of like, when I watch a film, unlike a lot of filmmakers, like I don't actually notice anything the filmmakers doing unless I like turn the sound off and make sure I aim for it. I think it's a superpower that I just get fully immersed into a story and the emotions and the performances and it feels like, it feels like life to me. And I think that that's a strength because that's what is always most important to me as a filmmaker.

I'm not really that interested in what tricks we can do, even though I can be hopeful in delivering a certain kind of feeling, but yeah, I'm just like, I'm really about the emotions and delivering a journey that people can relate to or can like be immersed in and feel the transformation. That's awesome. Yeah. I mean, I mean, I agree with you about like directing like and seeing films as well. Like that's, that's really interesting because I don't, I agree with you 100%.

I don't think people view films like that. And I had this quote recently where like people think that films are just cool moments that are, or the scene is in pivotal, but it's not what's kind of happening as an overall what like where everyone's going or what's the emotional impact of the story. And that's sometimes down to the performance.

But you know, cause if you're any filmmaker, you've watched the worst of the worst and the best of the best, like you've kind of like scrubbed through everything.

But as a director, you would also, and as a producer, I'm sure you know, you're dealing with stuff that is the most stress inducing, nightmare inducing, whether it's like, you know, cast or crew or, you know, like finances, what's it like where for you are the biggest Achilles heels to just be like, okay, I need like five before my brain melts and dies. Like it is so hard to make a film.

I'm sure everyone knows that, but it like, just to make anything happen, you need so many things to come together. You need like to exclusively go out to at least like, if it's going to be a kind of decently sized film, at least 20 crew members who are going to clear that entire week of their lives. You need to find actors who believe in the story and will invest with you and then also find that time and then everything else, locations, props, costumes, the gear.

So like all come together to be in this one place to deliver this one story. And then as the director, you are the custodian of that story. So as things are going wrong, as like it starts raining, as like an actor can't make it because they got COVID, you have to like hold so true to all those things that were like so important to you in telling this story. And it is so hard. And people are like constantly coming up to you with questions like what color should the curtains be?

Like where should we be on sticks or should we be handheld? And of course those are all so important for the story and you have to like always go back to the vision and what was the core thing you wanted to tell in this story to make all those decisions. And yeah, I think that's what I find.

That's the thing that is actually exclusive to me to directing over like producing or ADEEN because I think like you do have a little bit of time to think with producing an ADEEN, with directing like it's just all coming at you 24 seven. And like everyone there can kind of, you know, chill, take a second, like check their phone. You have to like constantly be in what are we getting? How is it going to come together to edit? How are we going to make this story? And it's challenging.

I 100% agree with you. And I think it's like, you know, my favorite thing with ever directing as well is when you've got actors who have predominantly worked in theater and you're trying to teach them about film editing and technique. And I used to have this conversation all the time with them where she'd go, okay, well, I need you to pause before you the next person says their line. Not because of any particular reason that it won't look good. I just need to tighten those crossovers.

And so I have clear line of audio, but they still do the interrupt every time. Yeah, it's such a different ballgame to theater. And yeah, you will get actors who are a little more heightened, a little more like indicate how they're feeling a bit more on screen. If you're in a close up, all they need to do is think about what they're thinking. And the audience will see it.

That's like, that can be a real challenge because you can't say to an actor, just think about it, just do less, like just lower the stakes. You can't do any of that. You have to change their intention, their objective to become subtler. Like you can't let them see that you feel this way. And that's like, I find that really fun to like find those ways of getting to the right performance, but it's really challenging. And I think it's a strength of mine coming from an acting background, I hope.

But yeah, I mean, also the other thing though, with that don't cut each other off is like, you have to know, well, maybe I'm going to play this in the two shot where I do want them to be upping the pace. Because I'm editing a film at the moment and I do want to stick on some of these two shots and they're not as fast as I would like to be.

And then it's the hard decision, okay, do we cut in for the singles so we can speed it up or do we stay in this lovely two shot where you can see how they both feel about what the other one's saying. So on that day, you have to know, how do I think I'm going to cut this? And of course things might change, but you need to like know the answers to that in that moment. Yeah. Predict the future.

I think like, um, we last ever shoot I did, we had like four, we had four, five glasses that we bought from Vinnie's. Like these were all like little goblet glasses. And my friend, um, who was doing one of the performances, he was like, oh, okay. So I've got to slam like my glass down on the table. He was like, I'm okay. I'm going to do it gently because it is real glass. So it is gently as he could and it's still shattered. And he just went, oh shit. And I was like, oh no, we've lost a glass.

And so we had to hurry and clean it up. And this was the day before filming. So we were kind of setting up the space and I was like, okay, well, we're going to improvise. We're going to use the bottle for one of the characters who isn't welcome in the scene. And that will kind of get around the fact that there's only four glasses and there's five characters and one of them isn't welcome. So cool. This will be kind of how we'll navigate around that mistake.

But it was very kind of like, I remember sitting there going, okay, I've got a quick sync. Go, go, go, go, go. What do you do? What do you do? Yeah. And you know, like one of those things is also like I said, it was like, you know, people are late. I've never been on a set where you know, you as a director are always there the earliest before anyone else. You are stressing about everything. But then like, you know, people are like, oh, I got stuck in traffic or you know, something's happened.

And I think the latest anyone I've ever had on set is being like an hour. Yeah. But you know, that whole hour, you're massive. Just kind of like, oh God, everything is crucial now. And then everything gets pushed back. And then you end up like, especially if you have locations that are time sensitive. Yeah. And you're like, you know, you're going to be out of there at certain hours. Yeah, absolutely.

Like how do you guys, do you cope best as a, like with those stressful situations as a director or as a producer? Or neither? I think the best training for me has been as a first AD because you know, you get curve balls and that's the thing that like, you know, good first ADs think ahead of time. Okay. What is plan B? Because something always happens on a shoot.

Like whether it's someone being late or something not being ready in time or whether the light is not going to be good for a few hours or whatever it is. Or that prop has been, it's got shattered and we need to go buy another one. It's like, yeah, I think as a first AD, I'm always like, okay, what will I do if that happens? Okay. We can cover this scene in three shots. It's not ideal, but we will get the story. Or is it a matter of we push something else? Do we cut an entire another scene?

But it will allow us more time here. So I'm used to those decisions as an AD. When I'm a director though, I'm like, oh, can't we still have it all? Can't we fill out all the shots? They're all so important. Like, yeah. And I think like it is good to make that difference. Like I think you can't be a director who's like a first AD. Like, oh, we'll just don't worry. Like, yeah, we'll just cut this and we don't really need it. I think you've got to fight for it, right? What's really important.

And you, but still you have to make compromises. So it's like, okay, the AD is telling me we don't have time for both. What is the most important? Can I cut entire another scene or half of it out to get this? What is more important? Yeah. I find also, I don't know if it's my background in editing, but I find that helps massively with directing as well.

Because I've had on set, like, you know, and whether I had a first AD or no first AD, depending on the size of the set, I've definitely had people go, oh, you don't need that shot of my God do because I don't have that. It's going to look like a shit cut. Like it's, it's, you kind of prioritize things. I think that you know, will flow well. And, um, I just think because I've watched, I've watched films and I've edited films that have not been covered well.

And you can, and not necessarily the stories about, I would think that like most of the films I've edited, they have a good heart, but they're like, you know, whether it'd have been a student production or like, um, you know, years later, they have been more covered, but there's always like, as a director, you do miss coverage. Like it's, it's weird, but you, you can never get it all. And it's this weird juggle in your head to what's a priority, as you say, like what is the most crucial shots?

Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes people don't agree with you on set and you're saying like, no, I need this, like three shots for this one beat. And they're like, why can't we make sure we get more of other things? And it's like, no, I know it's going to be important. And then like, you know, if it is the story you want to tell, it is the most important. Um, you know, that's when you get into auto filmmaking. It's like, no one gets my vision. No, shut up everyone. I have the custodian.

Do you, have you ever got like that? No, I think I'm actually like, I'm a bit, I hope to be a very grateful director. I'm like, thank you guys so much. Yes. I'm really appreciative like the whole time through. And if people give me opinions, I like, I love, I love when people give me suggestions on set as long as you know, it's appropriate and we're not like hours behind and throwing me off.

Yeah. I mean, there's a time and a place, but if someone goes, oh, like, do you think maybe we should get the other direction because this might cut better? I'm like, okay, great. Yeah. I think you're right. Um, like I find that helpful. Yeah. Don't worry. Our mutual friends all say nice things about it. Okay, good.

Yeah. They all, they all think you're amazing, but it's like, but I mean, like it's, it's, it is one of those things that I do agree with you because it's like, you know, how helpful is information sort of like so light as well into what you're doing. Yeah. And it's constant on set though. Yeah, I know. Like, couldn't we do this? And then sometimes you made a decision weeks ago about that and you're like, no, I don't want this. And then it's coming back again.

And you're like, I have to remember why I decided not to. My favorite, my favorite is like when people have missed emails or they've missed details in emails and then suddenly they go, Oh, was that disgusting? You're like, yeah, like three weeks ago. Like it happens all the time. Yeah. Yeah. So funny message, a message to any filmmakers listening is that it takes me like a day to put together a call sheet with all the details in it and then people don't read it.

And then they come and they're like, Oh, so what scenes are we doing? I'm like, it was in the call sheet. I mean, I will tell you, but I spent so long on that and it seems like no one read it. I just don't think people like emails. Yeah. And it's, it's kind of like, um, and I know it's the bane of my existence as well, because I have constantly the people I work with. Um, some of them love it.

Some of them think it's the bee's knees, but I think you have to really love kind of organizational and how organization works. Cause some people just go, Oh, I don't know why you kind of like do Google things. And I'm like, it's the, it's the quickest way to look at a calendar and be like, Oh, it's all synced. Cause like, I have friends who go, Oh yeah, no, I got your event. Cause it's in my calendar now. Yeah. And some people never do.

And then they, they, it's like, they'll go, what day are we doing something? Yeah. Just read my emails. Go back to the message. It's like, this is, and this is why I like my little rant, but it's why I ended up sending like 20 of the same email because no one reads them. Yeah. And, and then, but I think the thing also is the downside of being a filmmaker. And when you do a lot of emailing, which you know, is producing and directing and everything, it's never stopping.

But people I think don't like reading your emails anymore because they kind of like, just tell me then, which is the worst. Yeah. No, I like to email. I'm not really as much of a phone call person because then I'm like, you can go back to the info. Like it's here. I'm like writing emails because I can formulate exactly what I want to say. But I think I'm, I think I'm, um, have a shortfall of writing emails that are too long. And then it's hard for people to get the detail.

Like my partner is quite good at just like the bare bones and then people can find it. I mean, it does sound like you just like to write. Yeah. Is it a thought bubble? I like emails. It's like a journal. But no, I really like, I actually like, I'm a fan of organizing stuff and like, it's funny when I produce something or I do something, I'm like, that was well organized. I'm proud of myself. You know, don't care. No one will ever know in the end game, but I'm proud.

It's like, oh, I've managed to make this work. Cha-ching. Yeah. Exactly. And it's kind of also like organizing a call sheet and knowing when everyone needs to be there and, and dependent on time and day and everything. Like if you're light dependent, if you're shooting outside and it's entirely like weather permitting is the worst stress in the world. Yes, exactly. And actually doing all that prep work means you're ready for that day. So sometimes I'm like, oh, can the producer make call sheet?

I don't want to have to make it. But when I do do all that work of exactly what time everyone's going to arrive, exactly what time we stop one scene and go to the next and what we need there for each of those scenes, it's all in my head and I'm ready to go and I do my job a lot better. Yeah. But you know, but that takes so long and no one reads that. This is the downside of being a first AD.

It's interesting as well, because I feel like, um, you know, I don't know if this happened to you at like uni as well, cause I went to, I went to TAFE. So I went to North City TAFE and Randwick TAFE. And they're really good courses. They were great. They taught you the basics about broadcast as well as film. But one of the things they didn't really clarify on was the nitty gritty of a first AD and what that role really requires. Because you end up like a first AD is basically a set runner.

It's basically like you're a big set runner because the director is too busy doing other things and the producers kind of in and out during the day. Probably not as there. So you're kind of the best of both worlds in one head. Yes. Yeah. In theory, they're, um, the producers representative on set. Um, also, um, yeah, I mean, if you know the theater world, they're essentially the stage manager. They run everything. They're the bossy boots. They keep everyone on time.

Um, and in theory, I mean, they call action, which most people think the director calls action, but generally the first AD calls it. Which is weird. I think, I think it's such a weird terminology to why that's happened. Yeah. I think it's because like it's little things like directors get really excited and they don't wait for the DP to say camera set and then they just go action and no one's ready.

Um, so it's, I think it is good so that the director can just focus on looking at the faces rather than be waiting to hear camera set and knowing that the boom is out of the frame and everything.

So I don't mind it, but, um, yeah, I, I think, I, I, like, I've always loved first AD and it feels like the part of producing that you get to do on set, which is for me the most enjoyable part of producing anyway, because like, I don't really like sitting in production office going through contracts and insurances. It's just not really for me. Um, but I'll do it if I must. Uh, but then yeah, on set, like you do have to solve all these problems and you have to do them immediately.

And you feel like such a sense of satisfaction when you planned in a certain way where you got someone to work ahead on something else, where the director got to get that extra shot where they just love the performance and they loved everything happening. Yeah, no one else you never get, there's no Oscar for best first AD, but you get that sense of satisfaction at the end of the day that you did help creatively make that film better. Can I just say there was an Oscar for first AD. Really?

Like I wish. Oh, like I really wish that was a thing. Yeah. So good. It's really hard to judge because like you don't get to necessarily see it in the work and it's like, did you have enough time? Did someone have to hustle? So you can't really judge it retrospectively, but if all the crews around each industry said who is the best, I think they deserve an award.

I think it's like, um, one of, one of my teachers actually, um, directing teachers actually said he got sick and so the first AD had to run the set entirely and direct the scene because like the director was actually just outside vomiting and couldn't actually do anything. So I was like, here's all my information. Like go wild.

Yes. I've had to, I mean, if you have a shoot where the director is an actor, like in it, which is quite common, you start to go, Oh, I think you might want to do another one for performance. And you have to know what the director wants. You have to know their vision really well. So it's like, I know that you think this audience, this character needs to feel vulnerable in this moment or that the audience has to feel sorry for them. So you act as their eyes.

I've also done ones these days where, um, your first AD and the directors overseas or like in another state and you're just, you're holding an iPad with this director walking around, but also obviously you have to communicate a lot of stuff yourself. Yeah. I remember that COVID did that quite a bit. It was like zoom calls. Um, yeah, I don't, I don't quite understand cause I've, I've not had to work from home in entirety of COVID. My full-time job has always been in the office.

Yeah. So I've had no choice. And so anyone who goes, Oh, you had to zoom at home. Like how? Why? But apparently that was so huge. Like everyone was filming like, like their computers at home and then just going, Oh yeah, I like that shot. And they get a quad split of like all the shots, like, you know, you throw a camera and I was like, that's insane. Yes. Like, how is that a thing? It's nuts. I don't think I could direct that way.

Like maybe if I absolutely had to, but like just sitting there, not able to actually jump in and physically do things that would drive me so crazy. As a director though, and I, and I do ask this question because everyone has their own methods about what's, you know, good directing, what's bad directing. But, um, are you one of those ones who like, are you one to sort of play out the motions with or kind of tell people where their blocking is?

Because like, I know sometimes it's, you know, depending how quick it is, but some actors don't like repeating what the director, you know, if they go, Oh, I need you to hear, hear, hear, hear, hear, hear. Um, they can go and footloose fancy free do it. Yeah. Yeah. Like, yeah, I think it's, it's, it's a compromise sometimes that you find what's best in the middle. My instinct is always to go by the instincts of the actor. Um, so cause they know that character really well.

And that's if they're doing something that they don't believe in, you're going to be able to tell. So I think it, and they come up with these amazing ideas you would have never thought of. So I do love the opportunity to let an actor come in and have the space themselves, even to like sit there for a while while we're doing something else and find things.

Um, I think that's always best, but I always have in my head what I intend for the blocking to be because you need to make decisions based on that, that are going to be too late on the day. Like what, what equipment you need? Do we need a certain rig? Yeah. Do we need a crane? Do we need an easy rig? Whatever. Um, so that we're going to be able to get it. So I like to give the space to the actors, get them to play it out themselves.

Sometimes I might nudge them in a certain direction, making it feel like it's their idea. And then, um, sneaky. Yeah. Well, you just want them to believe, you know, like it's not to like trick them in any way, but just so that they feel like, oh yeah, this is absolutely what's right.

And then at the end of the day, if it's really not working for what I have in my head is going to be that story, I would be a little bit perscriptive with blocking and say, okay, I think that we should actually get you to stand on this line because it's going to be important for something else. But generally, yeah, I'll always try and let the actors follow their instincts. Yeah. No, I like that. I like that. Like, cause yeah, like there's, there's very many ways you can do it.

Um, and not all of them land. No. Oh, directing is like, there is such a breadth of ways to direct. Yeah. And I think my thing is I just really want everyone to feel comfortable and trusted. And, um, like we're really appreciative of them being there, whether that's the runner or whether it's the lead actor. And I think when people feel that way, they're much more, um, generous with their spirit into that place.

And they're not just like, Oh, I've got to get through this shot, say the words and go home. Like they're like, okay, yeah. How I love that story. You're trying to tell, I had this thought about it. And that's when like you start to make magic. Yeah. I think it's also like, um, you know, I think, I think actors worst hate depending on the actor is like sitting around doing nothing. And it's never fun. But I mean, like you do, it's always the hard thing when you're an ensemble piece as well.

Like you're in this big scene with other people and kind of, you all have like about four lines. So you're kind of waiting for someone to say their line and then have your closeup. Otherwise you're just kind of there and existing. Like, so I always find the challenging cause I mean, like, you know, let's be honest, every actor wants to be the center of attention. Cause you know, as actors, that's what you want to do. You were a performer.

Yeah. So you want, yeah, you want to tell a story that's interesting. Yeah. And then through your character. Yeah. So if your character is not on screen, you have generally like, you're like, Oh, I'm supportive of everyone else, but my interest really relies on me performing my character. So it helps the story grow when you know, like you want to be part of a whole.

So I always find the challenge with ensemble pieces, particularly more so than with just like characters who are only two or three in a scene, which are easier to kind of like run because they're, but when you've got five or six characters in a scene or even more, it's generally quite hard to get everyone to really like, make sure they're all timed right.

Yeah. And I feel like that's the biggest challenge to keep everyone happy because you've got to keep that energy going and you've got to be fast. Yes. Yeah. And it is like, it's about what is going to benefit actors sometimes as well, because they will do better performances when they're happy and like feel valued as well. And so I think if like you are keeping them waiting, it's just about, I'm really sorry this other thing came up, but this is why that's going to be really great.

And just feeling like you haven't just forgotten about them, but I do, I actually think in casting, I make an intentional decision to work with actors who I, if, if, if I'm working on something that doesn't have a huge budget where we're not going to have a trailer for them, I make an intentional choice to, to find actors who are really team players and enthusiastic in spirit. But then also, yeah, making sure that they do, they do know what's going on on set and they do feel valued.

Yeah. I mean, that's a hundred percent. And I, and I think enthusiasm really helps. Like, um, some of the best actors I've worked with, um, are like enthusiastic and they build off your own enthusiasm for the project. Cause I think that's really important as a director is you show your own enthusiasm. Yes. People move each other.

And also at the end of the day, if someone like, you know, I have this lesson a lot, that if someone is an enthusiast about what you do, then they probably shouldn't be there. Exactly. Yeah. It's the wrong kind of vibe. It brings everything down when someone's, when, yeah, when someone is not vibing with everything and making some comments behind the backs of everyone. Like it's not, it's not a good vibe. And I think, yeah, you're just, you can have a mature conversation about that sometimes.

A hundred percent. And like, are you unhappy about anything? Let's talk about it. Yeah. Cause it's not helping everyone else. Yeah. A hundred percent. And I think that's just kind of like a learning curve that we're not really taught about when we're younger as well. I think that's something that you learn as time goes on. And yeah, it's very interesting. Cause I remember that was not taught at all in school.

Like you're just taught to deal with it and like you don't understand how to deal with difficult crew or, but you know, like, but I remember like that one key lesson I was taught, which was if you're on time, you're late. If you're early, you're on time. Yeah, that's right. I love that role. Still follow it to a T. Yes. Yeah. I was talking to a filmmaker friend today actually about how we're always late for social gatherings, but anything that's work, we are so early.

Like you just have that mindset of, okay, the shoot starts at eight. I'm going to get up at like five 30 just to make sure I packed everything. I'm fully ready and I'm sitting in my car for 20 minutes out the front. Yeah. Oh no. A hundred percent. If I say like to anyone eight 45 or nine o'clock in the morning, I'm going to get there at eight 30. Yeah. No, not, not, not later than that. Yeah. No, film crews are amazing at that.

Like as a first day T like you're like down to the minute on what you can achieve and like they're so generous. A lot of film crew members where they rock up so early and they'll just start working because they, they do want to get through it all and they're there anyway. Yeah. And then they save us a lot of time and money. Yeah. Cause a little more stress.

I mean like, you know, there's sometimes you just get all the best kind of people to work with and you know, like just people like location venues and stuff like that. I know one friend recently did his first short film and he got the entire venue for free, which was like incredible. But yeah, it was in this club in Oxford street. They showed it to him.

He was allowed from it from like nine AM to like four PM when they actually officially opened and we just, he'd come in clean, help clean it and then like we'd start making it. And it was just kind of insane because you'd got all this location. And yeah, just the challenge of doing something with such a big kind of actual relocation in it. It's literally those like generous things from people that like, I hope that they know how much of a difference they make in the end.

Like it is like people I think really do want to help you if they can. And like I, one example is a film I produced back in 2016. We run, we went through the production, we went over budget and it was going to be the director paying for everything in excess. And the, one of the lead actors at the end of it, we sent him through, okay, these were your hours, this is how much we're going to pay you. And he said, you know what, keep it all and consider it my donation to the film.

And it was just incredible because it put us back onto budget and the director wasn't going to have to go and try and take out a loan. And like, it was like, we hope that he knows like how grateful we were for something like that that was like, you have made our lives, you made this film possible. That was so hard that we put so much time into and like, you're the best.

And it's all those things like a location that, you know, gives it to you for free or comes in and cleans or anything like that. Anyone, we did a shoot recently and a company gave us all these heaters for free and we could keep all the actors warm outside. Like they make such a difference, these things. It's like the last location I shot in was an amazing studio, which is normally used for photography, a place called Dale Studios in Chimidale.

And the owners literally didn't charge us for the equipment and they weren't going to charge us over time for any of like the excess hours. Because they were like, you guys are really nice. And I was like, are you serious? You don't mind? And they were like, no, we don't care because you guys are clearly just trying to make something and that's fun. Yeah, it's incredible.

And I really don't want to ever take advantage of people and sometimes it can feel like you're doing that on a film because you have so little money. But those offers that people make when they're happy to do it to help you out, like you're nuts. I think it's also, it's really like, it's age dependent because I feel like I've gotten, as I've gotten older, it's definitely more, I'm like, don't use people to your advantage, but ask if they're okay with helping out where they can.

And you know, especially when a project doesn't have a lot of money or sometimes has no money investments, like some projects I've worked on have had zero budget. Like they've tried to wing everything. The minimum I've ever spent on a production probably would have been a grand. And the maximum I've spent is probably like 15, 20,000, like out of my own pocket.

It's like, you kind of, kind of balance it up, but it does like when it's out of your own pocket or you get a grant or a funding or whatever, you do kind of think in your head, okay, cool. Well, what's achievable? What's not achievable? What's going to be everyone's rate? Are people going to make sacrifices somewhere? Are they going to be happy to work for a reduced rate?

Like what are your, what are, waive your options because sometimes you get the best result with just magic of people being, you know, like the best. Yeah, it's nuts. And you can't just get it all the time out of people, of course. And like, I think like, yeah, you can't, unless it's like a mate and you've done them a favor and they're doing your favor, like you need to make sure someone's getting something out of your production, like they're going to work for a reduced rate.

It should be because they're still trying to get experience at that level or they want to meet some people or like they should be getting something out of it. And you need to figure out whether that's money or something else. But yeah, it's like, it's a tricky balance because it is a shame when things go into production and they don't have enough of a budget to do it properly and everyone feels a bit overworked and underpaid.

But I think, yeah, it's just about being really straight up with people and saying, okay, I know it doesn't have this. Would you still be interested if not totally understand? Yeah. And I definitely think that, you know, that's down to the individual and everything as well, because you know, I've worked on those, I've done those as well. I still do some projects that are bumpkis money.

And like, it does, you do kind of work out when you're, you know, burning the candle at both ends of someone else or you're overworking people or you're, you know, like, and it's a challenge. It's a challenge because I think as creatives, we get enthusiastic and then we've got to kind of reel ourselves back and go, hang on. How much am I asking of literally everyone? Yeah, no, it's true.

It's true because yeah, like if you're a director, for example, you're the one whose name everyone's going to go, it was their film. I actually don't like that thing, like a film by this person or like when the director gets all the glory because it's made by an army of people who work so hard. And yeah, but it's like that, it is that thing on a set when everyone wants to go home and it's raining and you're already overtime and everyone's done it for not very much.

So they're not really going to get proper overtime rates or anything. And the director's like, no, stay here and get my vision. I've even been on those as a director on one of my early attempts at making something. And I remember it went to the overtime and even I was at the end of my tether just going, no, we're going to wrap because I don't care. It had gone overtime mostly for the fact that it was just like pure lack of understanding back then of experience.

And nowadays I was like, oh my God, I should have just scrapped that one because it was like, but that's hindsight for you. Hindsight's 2020, we learn all the time. You learn so much. Yeah. And I think like, you know, productive making anything, as you said earlier is hard. So you're never going to be like a hundred percent. And you do kind of find your people over the years. You do find who works well with and who you don't work well with. A hundred percent.

Yeah. And those like that synergy that can come from a really great team that know each other really well and work together really well is like that's worth miles. You know? Yeah. I think, I think one of the best compliments I ever got from one of my, um, an amazing friend and composer, um, it was, uh, Luna Pan. Um, and she said to me, she was like, you just let me do things like you just let me create. Um, cause she has worked for like a whole bunch of different things doing music.

And she said the problem is when she's in big productions, they're very specific about what they want. But when you're in smaller independent productions, they're very much like, here's the vibe go for go wild. Yeah. Yeah. And that is actually, as we were talking about before, like what is someone getting from a project?

Sometimes it can be that because I work with people all the time who are like really experienced, but they're happy to come and work on something for not very much because it's a creative opportunity and actually then you have to honor that as well.

Yeah. And if you're looking at something like a composer who's very generously giving their time and they're very experienced composer, you have to let them do what they came on for, get their creative expression across and find something that you're both happy with. Yeah. And, and no, and I think whether, you know, they, you know, just be patient with people as well. Like, um, time is precious to everyone.

Yeah. And, um, that's one of the things I say, if you've, if you've got, uh, and, and I think it's also been nice to everyone. Like clear communication, it goes down to any relationship, really clear communication, everyone knowing what they want out of a project, what they're excited for about that project. Because, um, I've, yeah, from script to screen to post-production versus anything you do, it's hard.

It's, and it's going to change from the moment it's on that paper to the end result, it's going to shape into something else. Yeah. And you hope that everyone involved likes the final image and likes what the product has become. Yeah. It's not going to please everyone, but, um, you know, that's the Achilles heel that we face as creators. Um, like, does that stress you out all the time? Um, yeah, cause like you do work with a number of creatives to make anything happen.

And so if it's like a production designer or a cinematographer that isn't getting what they wanted and you're trying to figure out where that, you know, that disconnect is, like it is like, you do want everyone to be happy, but there can really only be one vision at the end of the day. Um, but it's like, it's, those are kind of the disappointing ones where it's like a battle.

I think like creatives who challenge you is fantastic because then like it becomes this better thing, but you do sometimes get into these dynamics where you're just butting heads and you're not going to agree on anything. Yeah. So you sort of have to like either maybe go your separate ways or like figure something out, but it's like, it's so much better when you're just sort of on the same page, but you are challenging each other, but the project is just becoming better and better for it.

I think like those relationships, you just need to make sure that everyone's putting the project first, not their own ego. That's like the biggest shortcoming of projects when it's like, it becomes about yourself. It's, you need to always put the story first, like, and not like what cool technical thing can I try? It's like, it's got to be story, story, story for me. I 100% agree with that.

Like, you know, and that comes down to the controversial of like probably also because like, you know, sometimes amazing shots, like you can have the best cinematography ever and certain shots are pinnacle. Yeah. But, um, you know, sometimes I feel like a performance really kind of shapes a lot of what the shots. 100%.

And that's like, when I'm on a set, I, whether I'm a director, an AD or producer, it's like, my thing is that I would rather spend less time on the setup of a shot or getting the lighting perfect and have more time to do more takes where you get the performances. And that's probably just because of my performance background and because I am a character led piece performance director. Yeah. But I think that that is the most important. Yeah. Having the time for the performances.

And like the funny thing is we live in this world where people watch TikTok videos and all these like really like low quality videos that have jump cuts and have like a shot on a 720p phone with like a blurry lens and no one cares. I find that a bit disappointing that like people are more likely to watch that than like this film we slaved over. But okay, it is something to remember.

Like it's that people are interested in a story and they're interested in a character that they find interesting, whether that's on TikTok or in a film more than they are in all the technical stuff. 100%. And I feel like, you know, people just don't know what to do with that. Like a lot of the time they're like, what is, you know, how do I deal with this kind of level of, you know, storytelling?

And I feel like it's a it's a generational thing as well as like, particularly if you're a film lover, like you have to be a film lover to really appreciate half this stuff. Yeah. And I think like, you know, when we create stuff and when we sort of like, you know, put stuff together and then someone consumes it in like Netflix or Stan and then they go, oh yeah, that was great. Or they watched on YouTube and they're like, yeah, that was cool. And you're like, I spent ages working on that.

Yeah. I saw a meme recently where it was like the most hurtful thing to a filmmaker is when you're showing someone your work and they're like, oh yeah, just start it. I'm just going to grab something. I'll be back. No, like I spent an hour on that opening shot. Like you have to invest in this character right from the beginning. I remember once watching all my friends, all my friends short films that she directed on her TV at her house and it was like on her birthday.

And I remember sitting there just going, God, your editing is really good. And like, it's really on point. But I was like, it was one of those things that when you've got an audience and I guess it gets in your own head a bit, like are you a confident director knowing your, or do you kind of just go after you've done something? Cause I'm a bit of both. Yeah. I generally hate things as I've shot them. I hate everything I've made, but I don't know.

I think it's just because next time you want to do it even better and you always are learning and nothing is ever as great as it was in your head in the first place. So yeah, I sort of hate showing people things or being judged on previous work because it's like, oh, I can do better. I know. Um, but you have to just let go at some point.

I think it's always my favorite thing is when I've, I sometimes send people scenes that they're in, like, you know, a rough edit and my favorite is like, Oh, what did everyone think? And then just sometimes everyone's like, Oh, that was great. And then sometimes you get, that was good. And you're just like, what did I do wrong? I almost just died inside.

Like it's that level of, you know, a kind of based on personality or anything like that and who they are as a person and how they reflect on their own work as well. And that's hard because I think, you know, you remember everyone as being individuals and you've, I have this thing when you're, when you watch a film, you forget that the actor actors are acting and become the characters, but because actors, when they watch themselves, they can't remove themselves from the performance.

They go, Oh, it was okay. My performance was off. I didn't love that. The scene's okay. Yeah. Like, yeah, whenever you send actors the film, I get terrified doing that because I'm like, what if I hate their performance? But you know, you had to just make all the choices that were right for the film in the room. Maybe it was an even slightly worse performance, but it hinted at this other thing that was important.

Um, but yeah, actors, uh, the people to get feedback from the overall piece of art, cause they're just going to look at themselves. That's what I do. There's an actor like, was I amazing? Was I not? I think it's like one of my really close friends is an amazing writer and, um, I ever, I will send him stuff that I've done. And he goes, that's good. That is less good, but he's very honest. He's just like, you have great moments here. Let's scrap this half.

He's constructive and he never, but he's encouraging. That's the difference. Whereas if you, like, I feel like if you send people who just like, but when it comes to his own work is the same, he's like, oh, it's terrible. Yeah. Yeah. You have to find your people as well to get feedback from, because like getting feedback is really hard because it's often very conflicting. It's like, Oh, have you thought of this entirely different thing?

And you have to hold strong to like why you originally wanted to make it. And you have to find the right people who are going to get what you were going for. Yeah. And, um, that will give you hopefully useful feedback. I think it's also like, um, you know, it's, it's how I judge my own photography, which is why, like I had this thing. I remember a couple of years back, I was asked by one of my friends if I wanted to sell my photography in a store.

Yeah. I was like the sheer dread and anxiety that I felt. I was like, Oh God, is everyone going to hate this and not buy it? Yeah. And I just couldn't, I couldn't even comprehend ever doing that in an actual store and having randoms pick up my work and go, Oh yeah, that could be nice on my wall. I was like, why? But it's one of those things that I feel like whenever you take something yourself or you make something yourself, yeah, it's, it's the complete removal.

I, I, I tend to like things years later and hate on it less, but I've had time away from it. Yeah, me too. Yeah. Cause you're not caught up in like, Oh, it could have been so much better if we didn't have that one issue that happened. Yeah, and just see the piece for what it was.

And sometimes, and sometimes like, look, and I say this, um, you know, sometimes, um, uh, you know, like if you keep refining like the scene to the point of it, like not even feeling right anymore, you probably overworked something or you've overdone it. Yeah. Like I've seen some edits where like it feels too quick and I've gone back to an earlier draft that I'm like, Oh yeah, I did that one like a day. That one's fine. I'll work on that one instead.

Yeah. But you need fresh eyes often in that process. And that's like being in the edit is really hard. I'm editing something at the moment that I directed. I'm working with an editor to edit something I'm directing. I'm not the one editing. Thank goodness. Um, but yeah, it's like, yeah, it's too, you'd be too close, but, um, yeah, I think it's like, you do have to keep going back to, okay, if I didn't know anything about this, would I get it?

Like you have to keep trying to think as a first time viewer. And I think you save your people as well. Like, okay, let's wait to get into a rough cut that I've had feedback on to give to the producer and wait for that. And there is something about sitting in a rough cut screening where when people are watching it for the first time, you actually have more perspective as well. Cause you're like, Oh, what are they going to think of that? Not knowing everything else.

And it's like, that's refreshing. Yeah. I think, um, I, I remember when I was, you know, like little and I used to ask my mom because they gave me a VH like a little video camera. So I had like your little cassette tapes that you could put in and record. And then, you know, it was back in the day we had to plug your camera in, play it in real time to digitize it into the computer. It was great technology back then and then, uh, late nineties, early 2000s.

And I remember my mom was in one of them and my mom and dad can't act to say that, but I just remember being so proud of like my childhood dream. And then we watched it every so often. We've got the old one and it's just these bad effects and everything. My dad's in one of them and it's, yeah, it's just my brother who was 16 at the time's in it and it just, I, I'm like 10 or 11 and I just, yeah, it's so great.

It's so bad, but it's so funny because I look back and I go, God, like there's just a madness of I made everything myself because that's what I thought filmmaking was. I didn't think there was a crew because back then you didn't have, like, you didn't understand how filming can work. Yeah. And yeah, it's just like everything I made was through myself. Like I had tin foil and something and you know, just made it work. Like yeah, you, you, um, you just kind of improvise. Yeah. I love that.

Like it's, it's almost more beautiful when you stripped all the like complexities out of film. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think you'd ever do that again where you're just kind of strip everything back and kind of do it with a bare skeleton crew to make something interesting? I don't know. I think that would be, that would be really cool to do.

And I think actually sometimes projects are better when they are like kind of talking about before that synergy of a small team that know each other well and adding to it. Yeah. Tempting. I think, you know, I'm sort of at a point in my career where everything's becoming a bigger team and a bigger team. And so, yeah, it'd be really interesting to go back. Actually I AD'd this film many years ago that we made with a really small team, like five people down south. And it was such a nice crew.

And I think like that film became way better just because everyone was like giving it their everything and it was, you know, the actors were having a really good time, which I think is important as well because they were excited to show up each day and give it their all for 10 hours. Cause that is the thing that people forget about actors of like you, all the crew are going and doing this shoot and it is very tiring for 10 hours of lifting stuff in a day.

But I think the actors have like the hardest of like, they have to express emotions like on cue for 10 hours in a day. And like it is exhausting. And so when they're having a good time, I think it makes a big difference.

Absolutely. And I feel like when you're enjoying and laughing and being getting like silly and able to have fun with it, but also if it's a highly emotional impacting scene, you're also able to kind of, you know, and you know, it's the thing of like, you know, projects falling through or they're not happening no more due to any sort of difficulty. That's the worst thing to tell the people.

It's like, well, that's not happening anymore because people get heartbroken over the ideas that sometimes never get made. And I think this industry, like I want to ask you more about this, but I think this industry in particular is it's very easy to burn bridges by accident or on purpose. Like it depends on the kind of person you are. I hate you all. I never want to work with any of you again.

Yeah. Because we were talking about off mic, but yeah, this industry is particularly very sensitive in a lot of ways. Like how have you circumnavigated that as well? I find it's fully word of mouth. Like I get all my gigs from recommendations from other people. And I think, yeah, that's so important, like keeping those relationships good. And it's like, what is more important?

Like getting that shot that you have to annoy everyone for to get, or like having a team that you can go forward onto the next project with. Yeah, it's a hundred percent word of mouth. And I think like every now and then I've annoyed people that I found out about later that I didn't know I did, or I don't know how I did. And I guess sometimes you just aren't compatible with people as well. And it's not really anyone's fault. It's just you don't work well together. Oh, a hundred percent.

And that you just probably won't work with them again. And that's okay. Yeah. Because it's not the best relationship and working style. It's not cohesive. So you find other people that you do work well with. Oh, a hundred percent. And I don't think everyone works well or best together.

No, no, you could like gather all the best, the people you think are all the best people in the world and they probably won't make as good of a film as like a particular team that all really feel strongly about a project. Yeah. And I mean, like it's one of those things. And I think it's also, it's such a, like if you're co-writing or you're writing anything and you are, you know, like, um, that's a challenge as well of whose name gets, you know, highlighted.

Yeah. You know, is it a, is it actually a co-writer? Is it someone that wrote, like my favorite is, um, you know, getting sometimes pitching ideas to people. Yeah. And then they'll write something and they think, and then you kind of don't know where to put your name. That sounds familiar. Yes. I thought I told you that idea in a pub one. Um, yeah, I actually, I think that I don't care that much about like, um, credits as much as a lot of people.

Um, but I, yeah, I'm sort of more interested in the work itself and being like proud of it. And it does get really funny. Like there's certain projects where you'll be in those negotiations about credits or like contracts or money for so long that they never actually happen. Whereas like if you just get in and make something, I mean, of course it's important, especially when it might have the potential to make a profit, which most of the stuff I do doesn't.

But when it does, it is important, but I'm really uninterested in it. Like I just am so much more interested in the creative side. A hundred percent. And I think it's like everything I've written, I tend to like, if I really draft and stuff and things that have gotten delayed due to COVID or anything like that, it's just, you know, just life. Um, but anything that I have like original projects that I've done, um, and like I've net, unless I'm writing it, I generally don't put my name in it.

I don't even like putting my name as a directing credit, particularly. I'm like, it's kind of a concept by someone else. So or a story by someone else. Like I spend two years and the drafters in my drawer upstairs, um, writing a, um, co-writing a film, but because we didn't really have much actual co-writing other than just me suggesting plot elements and writing a few lines of dialogue changes. Yeah. I, and I said to my friend Felicity Keep, I said, my name's not on this. This is your work.

So at the end of the day, it's her idea. It's her story. Yeah. And as long as she's happy with it and it's workable, then that's perfect. Like I want to talk more about you growing up and, and you know, like what, for me, what was your childhood and what did that look like for you growing up and getting into this world? Yeah. Um, I, it's an interesting one.

A lot of people often ask my brother and I, if like our parents were in film or actors, because we both started acting and we both then went into filmmaking. And it's not, we, they, my parents didn't do that. We just, my brother was a good graphic artist and then he went to the McDonald college, which is a high school of performing arts and they had sort of told him that he could focus in on graphic art, but he then, um, had to do either drama, ballet, musical theater, music, like dance.

Um, and he couldn't really do anything. Like he didn't really have particular skills, but the great thing about acting is anyone can act really. Um, not everyone can act well, but you can always give it a shot, but he started acting there and then when he's two years older, when I went to school, I went to the same school and started doing acting there as well. And it really just ignited our, our love of it and our kind of careers as well, because we both got agents around that time.

I got one, we, I was 10 and he was 12 when we both signed with an agent and then we just started working and had a lot of great opportunities. Um, I did a few plays with Sydney theater company when I was young. So I did a play called war of the roses and was in that with Kate Blanchett and, um, Pamela Rabe and so many other incredible actors. And that I was 14 then. And I think that just like really started this for me, like, oh wow, could I actually be an actor?

Could I actually do this as a career? Because I loved it. And then I did another play, um, when I was 16 called blood wedding and that was a much bigger role and I played the moon, um, and did lots of crazy things like swing on a swing on a swing, uh, with blood in my mouth and spouted out the audience and like had this huge costume on and, um, yeah, it was like, it was great. Um, but yeah, I think, and then also, um, yeah, it started acting in screen as well.

So a few feature films and voiceover work as well. And, um, uh, like pack to the rafters, a few other TV shows like that. And yeah, I, I just loved, I loved acting. Um, and I loved getting to like pick up a script with a new character that you were going to know everything about soon and getting that opportunity to be someone else. And, um, like, I think I just love stories. Like I've always loved telling stories to family members.

I used to like tell my parents bedtime stories, even though they were like the adult, I would like my mom would be going to sleep with me like, can I just make up a story for you? And I'd like tell a story. So I think like that was what it was that like, when I started acting and I got to really invest in this one person, that was so different to me or like had this special skill, like I found that so much fun.

Um, and yeah, so I think like all through high school, I juggled acting alongside trying to still do okay academically. And, um, yeah, it was like a great process. And I think though the most, like sometimes I wonder like, should I, it would be nice sometimes I think to have like a real person job nine to five and like have, know what's going to happen in my life, have an arc, be like, Hey, then I'll get promoted to this. Then I'll get promoted to this.

And you have to like throw that away when you work in the arts, cause who knows what will happen. But I actually, I find that really exciting. Like I love that. Like I love not knowing what's going to happen next year. Like some huge project I could have never dreamed of might come up and then I'll be spending half my year on that. And I never would have thought I would.

And also like the relationships you build with people, because artists are such interesting people and you have so much to learn from them. Like it's like, yeah, the weirdest people in the world are actors. And I love that. Like you get to like, yeah, spend time with people who think about the world and it's such a different way to most people. Rather than media and the corporation and mediocre people.

Yeah. Well, I guess just society puts you into these squares and it's like, have you got a good job? Have you got a relationship? And it's like actors and artists don't really care about that stuff. No, no, no. I think my favorite conversation is like, how, you know, um, when are you going to buy a house? Yeah, exactly. Like, are you financially secure? I guess so. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. They always have relatives that worry about you. Yeah. So you're still doing that acting play thing.

Cool. Yeah. It's nice you do your hobby more of the time than others. Yeah. It's like, um, and I think that that's kind of a very interesting thing because, you know, like parents, parents who haven't been in that industry don't necessarily know what to expect when their kids enter that industry. And especially like, um, you know, when both their children suddenly just jump straight into it and do well. Yeah. Um, oh, a hundred percent.

Yeah. Our parents were like amazing because, um, yeah, they just loved it. So supportive and very lucky in that regard. Um, yeah, my mom like immediately was like, oh yes, I'm going to be an un-set mom. I'm going to show up. But she wasn't a stage mom. She just loved being around it. And if they ever needed an extra, she'd be like, oh, do it. And like, she loved being, yeah, a part of that world.

And my dad is like super, super supportive and will like do anything to, to, he always was like, don't have a plan B, just like only have creative stuff. Like just put that forward because yeah, you can live in our house. You can do it. We all support you so that you can put that forward first because otherwise it won't happen. That's so nice. So do you still love it? I'm so lucky. Do you still love it? No, I don't.

I've not lived at home for about five years, but I did milk it for a little while. I think, I think I moved out around 22, but, um, yeah, I did, I did milk it as much as I could until I started to get an income, I guess. Yeah. And then it was like, oh no. Yeah. Oh no. Yeah. But it's like those things with your parents where you can't do anything wrong. Like you'd be in a play and they'd be like, you were the best person in it. And it's like, stop saying that.

Like, if you just, you're always going to say that you're so biased, but it's lovely. Like I certainly cannot complain for having very supportive, lovely parents. That's so nice. That's so wholesome. I know. It's very lucky. So, so it's just you and your brother. Yep. Yep. And then there's two of us. Um, and we, like, I think I've just copied his life because he was an actor and I was like, I'll be an actor. And then he was a filmmaker and I was like, I'll be a filmmaker. And now years later.

Yeah. I'm just still copying him, but no, it's, it's nice to have someone who really gets you and, um, yeah, like we know each other's journeys really well, cause we've also sort of experienced similar ones. Um, but he, he's, his name's James Fraser. He, like he directs and edits and is now starting to focus more on writing, which I think I'm not that interested in writing more and directing and producing. So it's nice. We're finally starting to diverge just a little bit.

Cause I mean, like, what's the age difference between the two of you? We're pretty close in age. We're 21 months apart. God, that is. Yeah, we're close. Your parents got busy. Yeah. I'm like one done, another one in. Um, but yeah, we actually, we fight like crazy and like, we're really competitive people. So like we, it'll be like, oh, what's the best way to get to where we're going. And then we'll argue about like, no, it's definitely this way. No, it's definitely this way.

Or we'll play like a board game and just have huge arguments. My partner finds it really funny cause I'll be like, no, James cheated. He wasn't on the fast track in cranium. He was on the slow track and he's like, absolutely. I was not. And then we're just like butt heads for ages while everyone hates it. So I, I'm hopefully starting to become a little bit more of an adult with that, where I just go, you know what? This doesn't matter. Who cares? Even who wins this game. Let's just all shut up.

Like it's, it's nice actually to have like a figure in your life will tell you like the most honest truth. Yeah. I know you need that. You need like, you need someone who's just very upfront with you. Especially if it's your sibling. You're kind of like perfect. Yeah. You sort of, I mean, it's not always the case, but most of the time with siblings, you're, you're stuck with each other and you're not going to just like never talk to each other again.

So you at least have that confidence that you can like say something or suggest something and they're not going to like leave you forever and never want to talk to you again. Cause you have to. I think it's like, um, you know, my, my brother's, he used to give me dating advice and I just, I did not take it. Oh yeah. Well that might be overstepping the mark on something that they don't know you about.

No, I should think, I think it was just his eagerness to get me, um, get me out there when I didn't particularly want to. But that's, that's kind of brotherly advice for that I got. But it was like, you know, like I, all my family are academics. So I, and I'm the creative one. So like very shift in avenues and they all knew that. But yeah, like, um, have they been supportive? Yeah. My dad is very supportive. My dad more so because, um, my dad was a photographer for many years.

So it's like, he actually has a creative background. Um, but he also was a teacher and a journalist. So it was kind of like, I had a bit more of a structure to it. Um, but yeah, he's super, um, like creative and supportive of it. And he just kind of goes, yeah, do what you want. Like he's never been worried. Yeah, that's nice. The worry comes more from my brother and my mom.

So it's like the stress of like, um, uh, you know, financial gain and, and, and what you're going to be doing and stuff like that is just, that's where the worry comes from. Yeah. Um, yeah, because they want what's best for you. Yeah. Like everyone that's always hopefully people's intention. That's just sometimes not as welcome, but yeah, that's interesting. Your dad was a photographer and is very supportive.

I think my dad's a bit the same because he always wanted to be a writer and he's actually like does write a book whenever he's not doing his like nine to five. Corporate job. And I think he's like, I wish I could have only focused on that thing that I loved and he wants that for us. And so maybe your dad's the same. I think, I think absolutely. I think the same.

And I think it's kind of like one of those things that, um, I've, I've loved the jobs that I've had over the years, like the over the eight, nine years they've been in the industry, um, actually longer, I should say like 11 years, um, but all up I've loved all of them, but they're like what I do in my spare time and you know, outside of those actual like corporation hours, I love more.

Yeah. But it's like, you know, and, and I say this, I remember like this was ages ago and I remember like when I started this podcast, it was cause of COVID, it started being out of like a love and a passion for the industry. And I remember someone said, do you make money from? And I said, no, because you come, you get like, it's not profitable and stuff like that. But you can, you know, like I know, um, podcasts that you, you know, they sell products on them and that's how they make revenue.

I had no desire to do that. I was like, this is going to be purely fun out of pocket, you know, like, and, and that's kind of how I've always lived the industry life. I'm about to go in the freelance world next year. And that's very terrifying, but also very thrilling. Yeah. It's a funny one because I think because I grew up as an actor and you know, that was actually probably even more uncertain than filmmaking.

I'm pretty comfortable with like not knowing what's next and having faith that something will come up because it always does. It's got some great perks. You can take holidays whenever you want. Oh God. Yeah. In your schedule. You don't need to worry about how much annual leave you have saved up. You can take three months off and yeah, like, oh, what do you mean? You're not available. I'm on holiday. I'm in somewhere else in the world. And they're like, oh no. Yeah. Yeah. They've got no choice.

You make your own schedule. You work for yourself in theory. Yeah. It's much harder at tax time, but that's okay. I mean, I mean like that's when you have a good tax agent. It like, it really does help because I like, although I find it funny that people have tax agents when like, like who are full time workers and have a contract base. Yeah. And I'm like, you know, taxes, like the ATO isn't that hard. Yeah. It's like you have one job. You maybe have some like working from home expenses.

Yeah. Like it's really not that. Yeah. You just put all that details into it and then the government calculator does the rest and you're done. Yeah. I actually do my own taxes, but I think I might not need to start getting an agent because it takes too long. And there is so much. I'm just particular. I'm like, oh, I have to not forget about this one expense. It's funny as well, because I always know about agents. They do love to just add taxes. Like, oh, have you got this, this, this?

Yeah. Like I remember one thing you could, you know, because of television, because I work in TV, you can claim things like random things like movie tickets if you really wanted to. I'm like, why? Yeah. I mean, I would, but sure. Like I can guess I can claim this like $3.60 GST. I had to use like, you know, for the, you know, the roads. So yeah, there's all these absurdities that people kind of try.

You know, like I guess, I guess also the thing is like, you know, the cost of living in Sydney is much higher than it used to be when we were kids. Yeah. Which feels like eons ago. Yeah. Yeah. You know, but it's nuts. It's funny. It just keeps going up. I know it's we're both nineties babies and uh, you know, when you're born in the nineties, it sort of feels like suddenly the, I just turned 30 this year and that to me is still look like a comprehension that I can't quite comprehend.

And I'm like, well, how, how did this happen? I still feel like I'm 18, like 19 some days and then some days I, you know, cause I, the thing is, and I want to ask you this question. Do you think the older you've gotten, the more you've had your life under control and, and, or do you think that it's still as chaotic as when you were a kid? It's a good question. I actually think I'm becoming more under control and like, maybe it's boring, but I am like, I know what I need more as well.

Like, okay, I need a night off or I need like this. And maybe when I was a bit younger, I just go, go, go. Um, and I, yeah, I think I am. Maybe it's boring, but I think I am becoming more mature than like when I was 18. Oh, you know, I often think back though and go, oh, I wish I had that time back.

Like when I was like 18 or 19, I would just spend ages like daydreaming or like writing poetry or like reading philosophy or people watching or just going to the park and sitting there and looking at the clouds. And I think that's so important. Like when you're working on a creative project to have that time to just daydream and think and you come up with amazing ideas and it's just, you get time to think things through and I don't have that anymore.

Like I just have crammed everything into within an inch of its life. And yeah, I think I wouldn't, I think if I, I'm really bad at saying no to things, um, but I think I need to start to just find that time for me. Yeah. I think, I think it's really interesting that you say that as well, cause I can't remember the last time I people watched and that feels like five, six years ago now. I mean, it's, it's a bit obnoxious.

Like if you were to kind of say to anyone not in this industry, like, yeah, I like to just watch people and come up with like what might be going on in their lives. I'm just lame, but it's like, it's important as an artist to like think about the world and think about your place in it and think about other people's place in it. Cause life can just like feel like, okay, I go to work, I go home, I watch Netflix, I make dinner, I go to work. I go home.

Like, and it's like, what is, is that the point to life? Like if life's just that, I don't want to like be part of it. That's boring. I think you need to think more deeply about the world. Yeah. And I think I've, you know, I'm the same. I've always been that way. And I think it's like ironic cause I never could work in a job that is literally nine to five. I've never worked in a nine to five job. It is not my life. It never be my life.

Because like, I just, I used to come up with the weirdest ideas at one o'clock in the morning and just be like, Oh, I'm going to write that down. I used to do that while going to sleep. Like I just like jot something down. And you kind of never stop. Like once you get into that flow and that groove, you're just kind of like, Oh yes, there's another idea and there's another idea.

And yeah, people don't really like, if you're normal people, and I put this in quotation marks, like, and you're not a creative, like you can kind of see a lot of people just don't know entirely what you're talking about when you talk about how your brain works and goes, this is how I think, and this is like, I think in emotions or I think in like, do people think you're very much where your heart and your sleeve kind of person or are you very?

I think actually people think I'm really like not sensitive and like abrupt and say exactly what I think a lot of the time. That's what Lisa, I disagree with her statement. My brother thinks about me. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe today I feel more open. I feel like you said at the beginning exactly. And quote for quote, but I am an open book. Exactly. Yeah. I like, I would actually rather be seen as that, but I think sometimes, um, yeah, people think that I'm just a bit like not sensitive.

I think I am pretty good with like difficult situations in life. And like, I mean, I'm not, I have this thing where I'm really like terrified of getting bad news about something and it like haunts me all the time. And if I get a missed call from a number, I don't know, I freak out. But once I know the news, I'm actually like, maybe it's my first day day skills, but I think I'm a good problem solver. And I just, I'm like, okay, what can we do next?

There's no point like, you know, just sitting on this and being upset. What can we do? And so probably people see that side to me more. And then, you know, the people closest to me get to see the side. I'm like feeling everything deeply. And you're like, oh God, that sucked. Oh, that was amazing. Yeah. It's all the emotions. I mean, I think, are you an anxious person as well? Like, yeah, I think so. But yeah, it's a funny thing.

I hate being an anxious person, but I also think it's quite necessary because like, like if I'm sitting in an edit for something and I'm just like sitting on the front of my seat, like, oh, I just need to see this from this person. And I'm like feeling that sometimes the editor is like, you okay? And I'm like, I just, it's my process. You know, like I need to, I need to worry about everything. I need to care so much because it's like, it creates better work and it creates what I care.

And it, yeah, it's like, it's like my burden to bear, but I think it's like good for me as a filmmaker. Yeah. You did say it was kind of like your superpowers. Yeah. Yeah. I like, it's painful as heck to me. Like, but it's like, I think it, I think hopefully it's at least I've found an outlet for it in filmmaking. I think, yeah. Hopefully. I mean, like you, you, you work hard, like you're extremely busy.

Yeah. Like that's, that's kind of a good sign that you're good at, otherwise it's the opposite. Yeah. But those like, you know, if you have gone through an experience and you have felt a certain feeling and then people all the time have also like felt those emotions and can relate. But then as a filmmaker, you get that opportunity to put it onto a screen and have it there for people to go, oh my gosh, I feel heard. That's how I felt.

And I think that that's a really special thing we can do as filmmakers. So I think, yeah, despite all my anxiety and high strungness, most of the time, I think like it is a benefit as a filmmaker to have those strong emotions about the world. Now you, now you talked about relationship stories and stuff like that. Have you, because of like, obviously, do you, do you kind of like dictate those stories towards stuff that you've experienced or like? Yeah, sometimes.

I think like, I think I take elements of emotions. Like I'm not one to like make a story based on something that happened in my life. But I think like when I approach a story, I go, oh, that is exactly how I felt when this other thing happened in my life. That now is the core guiding true north of this story. And that's what I'm going to show. Okay. How can I show that? What shots can I use? Like, how can I change this arc?

What kind of cast member do I want to find who's going to show that kind of thing? So yeah, I think so. And I think there's certain themes that I really resonate with and like ones are maybe like mental health and anxiety, but also duty. I don't know. I think I've always like taken on this role in my life where I, maybe as I was saying before, like I try to like problem solve for people and make things better.

And even in my family, like I was the peacekeeper, like I was the one like, okay guys, how do we solve this? And I think I always felt this sense of duty, even though no one ever wanted it or expected it. I'm really interested in stories where people feel that they, they have to show a certain face to be okay, or they have to do something that's like breaking their heart and like so hard for them to do day to day or look after someone.

But they are trying to show that like it's fine until like it's not, you know, and they break and it's, it's saying that it's okay to not always be okay. Even if you are that person who tries to like fix everything. Yeah. Which can be the person who tries to fix everything. Yeah. I, yeah, I just do it naturally. And so I love, like, I think most of the films I've directed have a female protagonist who's trying to like be okay, but is not okay.

Do you think that's come from your experience of being a woman in society? I'm sure. Yeah. And I guess like I've always been conscious of making sure I'm coming across like I'm fine even when I'm not. And I think like those are, those are just characters that I find really, really interesting. And then it's about finding a story around that. You know, no one wants to just watch someone sitting at home like I need to do.

You need a really compelling story or no one's going to be interested in watching something. It is those like core emotions that are my true north for telling a story. That's awesome. I was going to ask a bit about like, have you ever had any sort of controversy around like being a creator, especially like because this industry has become more, you know, slowly become more women dominated and a lot of like gender diversity going into it.

We are from an era where it was sort of just coming into that and probably just in the last like five years, I'd say has changed dramatically. Did you have a lot of controversy getting into this industry, especially in the technical like first day day producing and everything like being a woman? Yeah, it's interesting.

Like there's not that many female first day days and it's like kind of because whenever a woman is bossy, they can like, people can't take it, but a man can be bossy and that's fine. It seems to be. So I have had many experiences where I've been working with maybe older crew members who were like, Oh, who's this chick telling us what to do? Whereas I do have skills in that area. So I just have to remind, remind myself, just back yourself.

But yeah, I am all for like more diversity as a general rule, because I think as filmmakers, we tell stories and I think if you have more diverse people telling stories that are authentic to them, that's so important that we're just getting a breadth of stories, not just the same people telling the same story again. Because I think as filmmakers, you do have, as I was saying, like the stories that are important to me and there are stories that are going to be important to every director.

And if you are just getting the same five people who have had maybe a certain upbringing like over and over again, that's all you're going to get. And I think, yeah, it's so much better if you can have a breadth of stories that a breadth of people can relate to that's so much more authentic and interesting. So yeah, I actually, I started, I finished film school in 2015 and that was the same year that the Screen Australia Gender Matters initiative happened.

And I got funding for something that was a female led project straight out of film school. And it was a good time, of course, to like go into that. But yeah, I don't like, I don't see it, it can be controversial because people can be like, oh, that's just roles for women. It's just like giving them a leg up and pushing men down or other people from other backgrounds down. But I don't think that that's true because I think it's like just getting us closer to even.

Yeah. And like the, there's sometimes you need those initiatives to do that work. And then you have people who have the experience necessary because yeah, it gave them a leg up. And I think in so many different areas in casting and in crew where it's like when people from certain backgrounds get a bit more experienced, then they're one of the pros as well. And you don't need to keep going back to the same old people again.

Yeah. Oh God, no. Can you imagine if you get going back to the same old people? Yeah. Very boring. Well, like everyone's going to die. So you need to train up new people. I know. And like, I just think there's also a lot of stories that haven't been told with different perspectives and you know, that's like something that we're going forward to. Yeah. But you know, like it also just should be normalized. Yeah. It should be a hundred percent normalized that everyone said it is different.

Yeah. And if they're good for the job, then they're good for the job. A hundred percent. And it's like, it's a benefit to the world to have people telling lots of different stories.

Yeah. I mean, like it's, it's one of those things that I definitely think that we're in an era now where more people are telling their own stories and you know, like, you know, people are able to speak their opinions now because people are comfortable coming out, whether you know, you're part of the queer community or whether you're part of any community. It's like, you're able to tell your, you know, stories now than you were even like five, 10 years ago.

Yeah. The fact that, you know, stories were like even about, you know, immigrants or anything were just considered only to be on SBS and only late at night. Yeah. And now I'm just showing it at any point of the day. Yeah, a hundred percent. It's literally, it's not so much the industry has changed. Yeah. And I like stories where maybe that's not even the entire like plot point that someone's from a certain background or something. Like it's just part of it, you know?

Yeah. It's just that the character has that element, but they're also a detective who's solving a case. Yeah. Like it doesn't have to just be that stories from diverse filmmakers got to have to like hit this certain demographic. It's like, no, like why can't that just be a part of like a deeper story? Yeah. I feel like, I feel like, you know, sometimes the best like handling of that is just, is through, you know, just understanding the people and understanding.

Like I think one of the, the best things that I watched recently, which I think did the amazing Elliot Page was in, I watched Umbrella Academy season three. Love that show. Love it so much. Yeah. But it was just such a subtle scene where they were like, cool. That's it. I'm just gonna go with the character now. Cool. Done. That's fantastic. You didn't even need to make a big deal about it. No, it moved on to its weird plots. Yeah. I was like, perfect. This is all I need.

And I think it, it got to the point where it was just, it was all about just connecting and loving each other and stuff like that. And I think, you know, shows like that that do stories like that well and don't make a big deal out of things that happen means that society shouldn't make big deals out of it as well.

I find like, you know, where we do make films that we try and make big, you know, political statements are good, but they shouldn't be entirely like every message of every person's like entire lives because they should be defined by other things. Yes. Yeah. 100%. It's not like you can't just bring that into then the Mission Impossible movies or something. You know, like it shouldn't just be like a niche category or diverse films.

It should just, it should just feel like life because that is what filmmaking is. Yeah. I mean, like that's what film festivals, unfortunately, are for though, which is a whole other topic and could be days for why I think those are interesting. But yeah, film festivals, if you want it, like the, some of the best films that do eventually get into mainstream, like cinema, you know, discovered in film festivals.

And then suddenly they do really well in mainstream as well, but everyone kind of doesn't give them the chance. And what's that, there's that terminology in Hollywood, I think, which is the scripts, which got chucked to the side and then it's like a really good scripts that they've loved, but they never produced. And then suddenly they just pick a one out of that pile and make it eventually. And yeah, there's like a hundred and something ideas in this giant pile of scripts.

And every so often they pick one out and it's, and you know, like, they're like, oh, we need Oscar worthy material. Here's another script that we've got off this pile that is being written by a dead person, like 50, 60 years ago. Yes. They do it all the time. Yeah. That's super interesting. It's like, what a shame they weren't alive to see it.

Yeah. Like, but I don't like, I don't like giving my money at the cinema to like Marvel or like, I don't have a huge issue with it, but it's just like, it's formula. Controversial. Yeah. I just, I don't like the sense of humor of Marvel. That's the part that kills me ironically, but it's just like, it's all spectacle. It's all formula to me.

And as I said before, I'm not a real genre person anyway, but I like to just, I like to go out and support and give money to projects that have a really interesting voice and like telling a story that I've never thought of before or sharing a perspective from someone who maybe like 20 years ago wouldn't have been able to make that film, but in this day and age they can.

And you know, sometimes I'll seek out films that are so old now that like sometimes I recently we were just gaslight and that's a great film. Nineteen forty four. Yeah. And like I know all of the Hitchcock, even though I think Hitchcock's an asshole of a director, his films are great.

Yeah. But you know, like I think the interesting thing, and this is the reflection I have a bit about cancel culture and, and reflecting on films that have people like Kevin Spacey and have been produced by people like Harvey Weinstein and everything, that I don't hate necessarily the film. I don't hate the films that they're a part of. It does taint the performance and it's a hard thing, but I don't hate the product that was made. Yeah. How are you on that?

Do you struggle a little bit with those things? I find it really complicated. Yeah. Yeah. It's I mean, yeah, I'm not the biggest fan of cancel culture just because I don't know if it offers opportunity to learn and keep talking about it. Yeah. It's really easy for people to just say straight off like, oh no, like that's over. That's the end. And then yeah, you don't actually get that opportunity to say, okay, what went wrong? Like what was the system that allowed this to happen? So yeah.

And then when, yeah, when they've been part of a piece of work and that's been canceled, it's yeah, I do find that complicated as well because it's almost like those films sometimes can act as a time bubble as well, like a space culture because they did happen and I don't think they should necessarily necessarily be entirely thrown away, but I think it's good to go. Okay. I'm so glad we're not doing that anymore.

Yeah. It's it's and you know, like films that aren't that whole kind of like still do it. Absolutely. And you know, and I think it's like you kind of instigate with everything you do and every and I think this is the constant reminder I have as a filmmaker is something I do now might necessarily become controversial later without intending it to be because times change true. Yeah. And it's unfortunately, whatever we do will be imprinted in something. Yeah. And you get judged based on that.

Yeah. And it can be misconstrued as well because sometimes you weren't trying to say something, but that's how people took it. Yeah. Because sometimes like, yeah, I know a lot of filmmakers who like, like to kind of play with the contentious topic, but they're not giving an opinion. They're just like, this is super interesting. They're like his surface level. Yeah. Like I know people who follow around to make documentary work around like neo Nazi groups.

And it's like, they just find those people super interesting. But that's like, it's controversial because it's like, are you giving a voice to people who, who's messages hate? So yeah, it's complicated. But I think almost if you do it in the right way, deliver it in the right way and not giving those Crips money based on this project, like it's better for the world to see what's happening rather than to just pretend that that doesn't exist.

Yeah. I think like that's what was interesting in like the Trump election that like a lot of people didn't feel able to say they were going to like vote for Trump. So the election result came as a big surprise. Yeah. Because I think that like cancel culture sometimes just pushes people's opinions out and makes people feel like they can't say what they think. And then you get a surprise like that. Yeah. It's almost worse not to know what, you know, people are expressing.

Yeah. And I feel like, and I feel like it's kind of just, you know, it's, it's potentially, well, I probably am terrible at not voicing my opinions and things. Yeah. But I mean, like, you know, it does lead into trouble. It does. And that's kind of the thing of when you're passionate or you're like active about something that you believe in, people might not always see eye to eye or they misconstrued or they change something or everything's word of mouth.

Yeah. And it goes back to that, like, how sellable are you? Yeah. Everything is word of mouth. If you've upset the wrong person on an off day, like that's so weird. It's such a weird kind of finite. Yeah. I think people like misconstrued a lot of like what people think into a certain opinion. Yeah. I think when I was younger, I was actually very black and white about the world. Like they're a terrible person. We should just not talk to them or listen to what their ideas are at all.

And I think as I've gotten older, I've seen the world in more of a gray way. And I think that that's, I think it's better to do that because even if someone has a different opinion, it's you're better off to actually get to understand what they think. Yeah. And yeah, like I've gotten into arguments with people like, Oh no, you, you're saying that thing. So immediately you're homophobic or like you're racist and then not.

I mean, it was a contentious thing, but it's like, sometimes they just like, or ask a question and they're, they don't know. And it's like, it's not helpful just to be like, shut up. You're wrong. Like sometimes it's more helpful to actually talk to them and go, why is it that you think that way? Yeah. Yeah. I've become, I've become less black and white and much more gray as I get older because I just, I'm more interested in seeing why people have the opinions that they have.

Even when I think they're really wrong. I mean, and that, and that's the thing it's, you know, you, you learn by asking questions and people learn by answering and asking more questions. It's the whole back and forth. Um, the world is full of various opinions and none of them are, not all of them necessarily right. Um, but there is no dumb, um, there was no dumb question. There are only dumb answers. Yeah. And I remember saying that to someone and they were like, Oh, that's not true.

You can ask dumb questions. I was like, no, no question is dumb because if you don't know something, ask it. Yeah. But people are afraid in this society to ask questions. Absolutely. And I think it's the, I think that's dumb. Yeah. I think that is the stupidest thing as you can be afraid to ask. Yeah. Um, yeah, I find actually like that slightly different topic, but like as a director, people expect you to always know the answer to something and have a really strong opinion.

And I think like there is a movement of change where directors are more like, I'm not sure actually. Let's think about that. Or like, um, Oh, what do you think? Yeah. And I, I like that change that's happening.

And I think it's just a whole societal thing of like, yeah, like I was listening to a master class thing the other day, um, with Hans Zimmer and he's talking about working with directors and he just kept saying when he does this, when he comes in and it was never like they were like, or ever she or like anything else, it was always he. And um, I, I thought that that's quite interesting that like, that was just the perception.

And I think there was this perception of like male directors who are auteurs like Alfred Hitchcock or something who'd come in and go, it's this and it's this and put that there and do that. And I don't, I don't like to direct like that actually. Like I prefer to be like, okay, what do you think? Yep. Thank you. I don't want to make a decision now because I have to, but I do respect like listening to other people's points of view and I'm not just going to be like, do it now.

Like it's going to be like, would you mind? Yeah. It's always like, how, how will this benefit? How would you mind doing this? Yeah. Like, I like working with creatives in a way where, um, they're on board with something. Like, as I said before, with actors, like having them feel like it was their idea. It's not to like trick them in any way. It's just when everyone's on board and on the same page, it's like something magic happens.

And I don't like to work with a Wayne with like cinematographers or something where I'm like, no, no, I just don't think that's right. We're going to do it this way. I'm like, okay, I'm really seeing it really differently. Why is it that you think we should do it that other way? Yeah. Then you might learn something and you might still end up going with what you thought in the first place, but you've gotten like this whole different perspective on something.

And that's always a learning curve and I'm learning and I always try and, you know, like people challenging me because you know, my vision in here might not always be the correct one. Yeah. And that's the thing you get challenged and people shouldn't be afraid to challenge anything that they're asked. Cause there's no wrong way of trying something.

Exactly. And I think like it actually is a movement of change that people are not, they don't feel like they always have to be, they don't always have to know all the answers. Like they don't have to lead with fear. They can lead with love. Like it's like so hippie, but like I do think it is a changing movement in film and it's a welcome one. I 100% agree with that. I wholeheartedly agree with that. I'm going to use that also as the perfect time to wrap us up. Okay, end with love. End with love.

It is the best thing. Can I just say I've loved every second of this though. Oh, thank you. It's been amazing talking to you. It's been amazing talking to you. Now Holly, where can people stalk you on the internet? Where can they find your... I'm not a real social person. Like I've always felt like I don't really like, I've always been like, oh no, that's like tacky. I can't do that. But I don't know. I've got like IMTP or LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, but I don't post on Instagram enough.

But yeah, I mean, find me, message me. I'm always happy to chat and talk about projects and yeah, it's what I love to do. And if it's a project that I love, I'm all in. Cool. There you go. You've heard it first. It's great. Yeah, well then I'll be like, oh, I'm actually busy. Sorry. Yeah, don't worry. It took us like six months to lock this day. Yeah. I do overcreate my life these days. It's not personal. It's just time. No, I know. I know. It's sheer love. I mean, just how many...

We've been organized since like November last year. And I just feel like, man, we're both hectic. But no, it's been an absolute pleasure chatting with you and thank you so much for joining. Thank you. Talk soon. And if you want to go and listen to more episodes of The Things We Do, you can check them out on Apple and Spotify. I'll be speaking to you there. I'll be speaking to you there. I'll be speaking to you there. I'll be speaking to you there. I'll be speaking to you there.

I'll be speaking to you there.