The Things We Do... - Interview with Em Jaay

This is the things we do podcast to podcast about film life, television culture, mental health and all of that fun jazzy stuff today. I've got my special guest and friend MJ. Weee. Yo. Yo. So is it easy to call you MJ as a full name or just as M for short? M can be for short. Done. I can stick with the otherwise there's going to be a very interesting conversation. Like shorter and shorter and shorter. So M we've known of each other for like, I'm going to say 13, 14 years now.

Yeah. Wow. Yeah, no. Um, and we've, we're not that dissimilar in age, which is kind of like, um, I always forget that I'm not, I'm actually not that much younger than most people. Cause I always think like when you're like really young, which I was about like 19 when I think we first met, I always assumed like your teenagers were when you were really young. And now I remember that the moment you turned 30, it's all fucking out the window and no one gives a shit. You're like, Oh, that's right.

I'm just, I'm a normal human. It's funny cause like age is so, it's so intense when you're younger and you pass a certain point and you're like, Oh, I can't, I feel we're all the same now. Yeah. It's once you, it's once I think you kind of get out of that, like 20s mid slump, but you're not, you know, like if you think of how much experience you live in the space of like six months or a year, and then someone else is like six years older than you.

So they've got six or even like 12, six months on you in terms of like life experience, you can feel the same age and then you dig a little bit, you scratch a little bit. Well, how do you even live a year? Yeah, I know. Look, the pandemic taught me anything, it was just improvise with everything that you do day by day. But I'm going to ask us, I'm going to take us back in time, take us back to the early days of you and your childhood.

Cause you know, but also my first, probably most important question is who are you and what you do? Tell the internet. Who am I? Hello internet. I'm MJ. I make films. I'm currently based in Italy, but I'm Australian and I'm back here now, which I just got back like four days ago. So I'm just creeping off the edge of jet lag. And yeah, I'll be back for a bit and then back in Italy again, then back and forth, back and forth.

Still trying to understand how to live in a good way and how to, yeah, make things in a good way. I mean, you've always been quite creative, which is, you know, since I was a girl. Yes. Since I was a young girl. No, like you've always kind of astounded me with how creative you are and how like out of the box thinker you are. Did that, does that come, like where did this original journey start to become a filmmaker and like, especially like move overseas? They came one after the other.

So I was over, I was moving overseas for this kind of, kind of Erasmus that you can do at Sydney Uni, like you do the exchange. And I wanted to go back to China because after high school, I had spent a year in China and done university there instead of a gap year. I just went to university. It's like love studying. I really liked it.

I liked how you were kind of in this space that was the center of the world, you know, maybe not in terms of like the way people outside thought of it, but once you got there, there were people from everywhere that you would never have a chance to meet here. Like in this year, when I was having my gap year, my closest friend was from Kazakhstan and other people were from like Poland or Spain or just like this crazy mix and another Australian, Brazil, I don't know, really interesting.

So to come back to Sydney where everyone was from Sydney, it felt very stale, you know, because I had been exposed to this, if you want to go away for the weekend, you would go to like climb this gorge in Sichuan or like go to this mountain where Tibetan monks lived. So I was like very young to be exposed to like this level of like, whoa, because I was in a very random part of China. I wasn't in Shanghai or Beijing. I was in the West.

So when I came back, it was kind of like, cool, how can I organize myself to go back to that immediately as soon as possible? So I understood, you know, but in a sensible path through university and blah, blah, blah. So I understood I could do this Erasmus to Beijing to one of the big universities there. So I did that. And while I was there, I had to kind of already developed a little bit this jealousy of people who did film.

It was already starting when I was in uni here, like, hmm, I'm very jealous of my friend's brother that he's doing film. Like, why? I like what I'm doing. Why this irrational jealousy? And then I got to Beijing and a friend of mine kind of put me in touch with her friends and they were filmmakers. And I was immediately like, hi. And then slowly I understood, yeah, this jealousy, like use that to show you what you want because it's like an envy.

So if you like look inside yourself, okay, what am I envious of? Maybe I should follow that path. And so yeah, halfway through the six month Erasmus, I started to write a film and ended up like staying an extra six months. Then I never really came back to Sydney after that. I came back for some months to maybe like finish the degree that I had missing subjects randomly around and to finish the post on the film that I had shot there. And then that came out what? 2012? 2011?

2015. 2015. Oh God, okay. The timeline is messy. Yeah, I know. I was like, because I remember you, I remember you posting about that and talking about that and I think there was a year between post and actually completion of filming or something like that. It was quite a... Yeah, we shot in 2013. Yeah. So like filmmaking. Yeah, it took a while. But I mean, it took very fast to film in some ways for a feature film, like a couple of weekends, like a couple of weeks, but over six months.

Because also then you could get Beijing in the summer and the winter and the city changes a lot, which was cool. But it was one of these projects where no one is paid, you know, so you have to go slowly and everyone is helping at the right time that works for them because they're doing it because they're interested in it or they like the project. So you can't really push people that much at that point to hurry the fuck up. It's not going to go.

No. And then you left China and then moved to Italy? No, there was a step in between. So the film was 2015, basically finished, went to Montreal World Film Festival as the premiere and then played some festivals around, even one in Sydney, I think this one, women in film. The name has changed now since the festival existed. Oh, I think I know the one you're talking about. But yeah, yeah, yeah. It was called like Mad or something like that. Yeah. Anyway, yeah, I can't remember.

I always forget the name and I should know it. It was a nice one. But yeah, so as I was finishing that, I understood that I wanted to leave from Beijing just to change things up. I mean, I was 24. I'd been in Beijing and China since I was 18. And I had understood that you can get a son, you can kind of do anything in Beijing. You can arrive and just tell people, I'm a filmmaker. And like, why would they question you? Okay, cool. But like, maybe you're not at all.

You just say that you are and they'll believe you. And then you just do whatever you want. So I wanted to kind of enter into more like professional setting to not be in this amateur space. I was looking at different film school options and didn't want to go to the US, didn't want to go to the UK. But everything in Europe was the National Academy. So it was in the local language of whatever country you want to go to.

And then actually, this friend of mine who was doing the music for actually who we worked with at the Seymour Center, he did the music for the Beijing film. He was like, ah, you know, this Hungarian director has opened a school in Sarajevo. So why don't you check it out? So I checked it out and I applied and I got in to the second round of master's course that they had. So, yeah, I moved from Beijing to Bosnia, Herzegovina, to study there under Belotar, who is this Hungarian director.

And yeah, his school is quite experimental in the model. Like it was more like a masterclass model. He just invited his different friends to show up. And there were like very specific guidelines of how we could and couldn't make films, like certain limits he made us do. And then I was two years there and the second year the school closed. So our last semester was like no teaching, just shooting.

Bella had gone and we used the equipment of the school to kind of finish our work with each other because we were all like on each other's crews and stuff. But yeah, and then after that, that's when I went to Italy. Right. And then did Italy open like another whole like level of boxes for you? Yeah, kind of. Yeah. It was a very random decision.

Like I still now can't quite place what drew me to there, except that I didn't, it didn't make sense to go back to Australia because I had been so long away and I didn't know what to do. I wouldn't, I would have to completely start again. I didn't really want to go back to China also because I didn't have a visa and it would have had to find a work and find a visa. It was kind of getting annoying. Yeah. And at the time I had the possibility to live in Europe for my passport.

So I went and yeah, it was like cool. Italy is right next to the Balkans, like right next to ex-Yukoslavia countries, but it's bigger than Slovenia, which has a very tiny market. And it has a really good relationship with China, like historically this connection of like Marco Pol onwards. And basically there was that, I had a lot of friends from Beijing who had some connection to Italy or were Italian. Very randomly I went there and yeah, it opened up this whole world of like European cinema.

Yeah, which is a very different ball game. I feel like Australian cinema is a little bit, I want to say lackluster. I've never been a huge fan of Australian cinema. I think it's like depends, but I think yeah, like international like films or European films that tend to be sort of like way more interesting or just independent films. I kind of like indie films. They are like where a lot of my love comes.

But surely there are Australian indie films now, like there's interesting things being made around. Only in the last five years though. It really came out in the last five years. Before then, when especially when we were both studying, there weren't that many, there was like completely like probably pittance. Yeah, it's true. There was like this weird desert, you know, in between from like the 90s ones until, but recently there's some pretty interesting things popping up.

Yeah. And I feel like it's probably because Australia got a lot more traction, especially because we've got a lot more stars in the limelight that want to push a lot of Australian productions, which you know, kudos. But we weren't known for like, you know, TV soaps and stuff like that. We weren't really known for like dramatic arts or, you know, really well thought out films. We were known for soaps and horror. And those were like our two things. Yeah. Yeah. It's always the same model, no?

Like, ah, the landscape is so scary. Yeah. No, suburban life. Whoa. Suburban life is fucking terrifying. I have to say, like, I can agree with this one. But no, I love, so, so what was the last thing you filmed? What was? I actually shot a short here during the lockdown. Wow. Which was, okay, not during the lockdown, during this lock in, lock in, like you can't leave Australia. Lock in. Yeah. So yeah, not like in my house.

Because it's hard because I don't know, I always refer to the lockdown as just those two years. Yeah. Because I couldn't leave. We were locked in. Yeah. Anyway, not quite correct. But yeah, it was cool. It was some very, very random, like, how do you say, collusion of events. Yeah. A friend of mine who became a friend because I went to look at his house.

And just, and the reason I looked at his house, because he did such an interesting post on Facebook marketplace, like instead of pictures, he'd made like little films and he announced himself as a filmmaker. And a lot of the films, I could see Star Wars posters. And I was like, aha, okay, like I could live with like a Star Wars dude. Like this is possible.

So like, I went to see the place and literally, I think I spent like one hour there, like chatting with him, looking at what he was working on, telling him what I was working on. It was really interesting. So then I was like, okay, cool. I actually don't want to live in your house, but like, let's be friends. And I think some days later, like a week or so later, he was having a party at his house. And he's the kind of person who really brings people together.

He wanted to invite all these like random, crazy, strange people that he'd met. Because he's a filmmaker as well. So he's like bringing these worlds all the time. And yeah, from this we became friends. And at some point he was contacted by an actress who he just did not want to deal with. He was just like, nah, okay. And he called me, he's like, okay, there's this actress who wants to make a TV series. Do you want to talk with her? So I forgot, he's Italian and she was Italian too.

Right. And I was like, yeah, sure. Why not? And she was from the city in Italy that I had been living before I got here. Where all my luggage was still living. I wasn't meant to be in Australia. You know, I was accidentally here. So yeah, we got in touch and I went for a coffee with her and she told me the kind of, she pitched me the TV series that she wanted to do. And at some point I was like, look, you don't really have any funding or anything.

And you know, to write a TV series can take a year more and we should do it properly. Like enough of this amateur level. Like let's do things properly. So no, I'm not going to do this. But if you want in a very like random rough, like a punk style, we can make a short film. Yeah. So we kept talking and I understood, you know, what were the things she was really interested to talk about from this like massive TV series idea? What did she actually wanted to say?

And then how could that match with what I wanted to say? And then yeah, she introduced me to this actor that she wanted to work with. And I made him take me to all these different locations he liked. And slowly like this, I built the script, kind of talking with both of them and making the script around both of their personalities, which is anyway how I work. And then, yeah, got some like met some people through friends, like this amazing cinematographer and I got a friend to do the sound.

And yeah, like this very randomly we went into the nature and shot two weekends. And then tragically, the actress who was originally the whole thing, her idea, she actually couldn't come those weekends because she like was on it. She didn't understand that she was supposed to tell her agent to block these dates. So she made this huge mess and I was very tempted to just completely change the actress.

But in the end, I was like, no, no, no, it was her original concept, this thing, like let's finish it with her. But we had to shoot in a way that she wasn't there. So using like a body double or yeah, so that was very interesting. And then the, so the last part of the shooting was actually like months later. I had created this kind of book of all the locations, how we shot them to understand like how could we match the counter shot with something that could look like the same.

So like me and the DOP did this very nice action actually of scouting around understanding like what could match. Yeah. Yeah. So then we shot with her for a weekend, which I think also for her must have been crazy because she had no context for each like shot, you know. Yeah. Sometimes it'd be like, okay, those bushes, put your head near those bushes. Yes, exactly that bush, cause it looked like the other bush from the other location, like Newcastle.

We found the matching bush from Newcastle, put your head next to it. And then like pretend to look up and pretend that you're on a cliff. She'd be like, okay, whoa. So for her like acting, she came from theater, so she could do this kind of imagination work, I think pretty well. Anyway, yeah, it looks cool. So still trying to finish that. Again, same problem as before. No one's really being paid, so everyone has to work in a, you know, capacity.

That's awesome though, because I feel like, you know, the thing you bring the best of both worlds, which is like, you know, independent art style, but also like professionalism and, you know, the proper approach, which I a hundred percent am all for. It drives me mental when I guess it's such a student mentality of like rush it and go for it. Which you know, I think happens more when you're young because you think that nothing could ever go wrong.

And like you just said, things can go wrong all the time, but it's like, yeah, so there's little mounds of challenges. Like do you, have you ever gone through that stage of, you know, being a filmmaker and just going, what the fuck am I still doing? Oh yeah, constantly. Yeah, absolutely.

Like even yesterday, like, but you know, okay, partly because of this process where we got a producer coming into that project at the end, you know, after I did the edit, I sent it to him and he's, oh, I like it. Gave me some feedback. We kind of went back and forth and he was like, if you want, I can help you produce it. Like I'll come on as the producer to finish the thing.

But it would have been amazing to have someone from the beginning, cause then you're carrying the weight of it with someone else, you know, cause really the director and the producer, the only ones who see the project from the beginning all the way to the end. So it's pretty lonely without a producer, cause only you are carrying this project on your shoulders.

Like the sound guy pops up, does amazing work for those days and then goes home and onto the next project, you know, like it's more like little segments of the film. So in that sense, it's very tiring if you're on your own on a project, especially like, it's nice to have someone at the beginning. Like now that I'm working with this guy at the end, I really know like how valuable it is that I would love someone at the beginning to kind of bounce ideas off of the script.

And with this one, the actress, the wonderful thing that she did, she brought in on someone she'd worked with before this dramaturg who helped with like warming her up and all this stuff, but also helped with bouncing ideas of the script. Cause you need that. You can't just write a script in a box in your room and then like turn up on set and be like, hi, I've got it. Like you need a process for like other people checking in and yeah.

So that's the thing that I think makes a difference when you're working in a more professional space. Cause in order to even get the funding, you have to have a certain quality of the script, but it does mean that everything becomes much more standardized, you know? Like in Europe, there's a lot of these film lab, script labs and everything goes through the same process in some ways and the same people.

So I mean, obviously if you get something like super radical outside the box, they probably also like love it. But in some ways everything becomes folded into the same style or the same box and pops out in a kind of similar way.

So actually the cool thing about making something a little bit more punk like this, that yes, it can end up with a more student aesthetic, but if you do things properly and like film in a more professional way as much as possible, you can create something that's very like original and a bit random. Yeah. But yeah, to answer your question, this doing it by yourself thing is very tiring. Yeah. Why? Why, why, why?

And like why you have to push it every moment and why you have to persuade someone to, because I, yeah, I don't know. And also in the end you're like, does anyone even want to watch this? Like I'm just, why don't I just paint a painting, you know? Because if the point is to express your creativity, I can just do something that's so much easier.

Yeah. I think, I think it also makes you though, because the one thing I've always had mind about your level of work and your output is, is that like, you do take things very seriously and you do. I wish I didn't take things so seriously. How nice to just be like, yay! But I mean, like, it's like, I'm the same. And I think I, it's sort of like to my detriment as well, but it's sort of like my love for film is very like, whether it's paid or unpaid, I just always take it very seriously.

And I think that's, you know, not always possible for some people because at the end of the day, like, yes, you're having fun, but you've got a certain finite amount of shots to get through and you're also on a clock, like of the, you know, depending on light, which I think, but I do like the idea that, you know, like I always think I try to work, especially with performance.

And I think it comes down to my love of performing is working with similar minded people and fine, you know, it's like cherry picking the people that you're like, Ooh, I love, love working with you because you're very, you know, not like flexible, but you're in line with like my vision. I think like when, when everyone works on a clock and everyone's ticking along and doing well, it's more like a smooth ship.

And like, I love working with people, especially, you know, operators and creative, like people who just know distinctly if I'm directing something and they go, Oh, I've got an idea and cool. And like, everyone actually can chat, not just be like, what do you think director, because you're the only one who has vision. I'm like, no, like there are about 20 ideas that I could probably think good, but there might not actually be the best thing for the product in the end.

Do you find, I mean, it's so nice when you couldn't find people that you're working like almost more like a band, not like when you're making music or jamming that you're kind of in this collaboration space or like in theater, it's a lot more like this, you know, this collaborative theater. And it's nice when film can be like this. I mean, obviously then can be some kind of hierarchy because people like to know what to do and who's going to follow the project until the end.

But I really like this idea of a much more collaborative. Yeah. Yeah. But then you have to find your people. Yeah. And then you have to build this community. Yeah. And for me, that's what's a little bit hard when you're constantly changing country and working with different kinds of people that you learn a lot. But then in your mind, you're like, okay, I'll take the cinematographer from that place. And then I'll take my friend who does amazing sound from all the way over there.

This friend should just come on set because he gives me very good ideas and she can be there because she's so friendly and makes such good energy. And like, she is like amazing behind the camera. So she has to come too. Yeah. But you can't do this because she lives in Germany and he lives on a mountain somewhere. How do you build this?

And I don't know, for me, that's something I a little bit miss, to be more rooted and build a crew from the place where you are, which was cool in the short to kind of start to put together a group of people that you like to work with. Yeah. At the same time, also, every project is a bit different and you are building these families, which is nice. I mean, I like to work like this. But again, a lot of people prefer big set energy, which is also nice. I don't know what to do with the big set.

I love small sets. I love the intimate family vibe. And I think it's also because I worked in TV for too long. It's probably because my entire department is like a little deranged family. What department were you working on? So I work in TV, I work in a tech department, which is called Master Control. Wait, Master Control? Yeah. No joke. It is called Master Control. Interesting. Yeah, I know. And we deal with like fibers and feeds coming out of channel seven. So we do that on a daily basis.

So we deal with not live news coverage and everything. It's a very, you learn to translate a lot of people and find what people are trying to say and simplify it for yourself, which I think I love. That's not a skill that everyone has. Synthesis. Yeah. It's like, because a lot of people I find take everything that people say verbatim. I'm like, no, you've got to read the layers between everything.

And I think a lot of the time, when people are learning or they don't know what something is or they've never worked in a field before, they're like, I don't know what I'm talking about, but you might be able to understand what I'm saying. I'm like, well, yes or no. And that's part of my job is to kind of translate what people are asking for and where they can receive it and stuff like that. So that's been my last eight years of learning TV.

But I mean, in between everything, I've done photography, I've done film editing, I've done podcasting, I've done sound. So I'm kind of like a jack of all trades. I've done performing. So like, I kind of, yeah, I love just creating. So it's like my little like, if tech pays me money, then I get to do everything else I love outside of that. Have the money work. Yeah, I know. Well, capitalism, I really rake towards it. I'm like, yeah.

So when someone calls you to be on their crew, you could fill in like many roles. Yeah. Like the performing, sound recording. Yeah. What were the other things? I do producing. I like, yeah, I'm very good. Like I think, I think my favorite thing is like being said to me mountain countless times is everyone's like, you're really good at just stringing a bunch of people who have never met together and making them do.

Yeah. Yeah. It's like, and doing something and just going do it and getting everyone like really worked up and excited about an idea. I love doing that stuff because it's like, well, you know, and I used to have friends like bring me scripts and go, Hey, what do you think of this? And I'm like, I love it, let's, let's try and get a bunch of people together and try and make it. Can you make this happen? Yeah, no. You're the make it happen guy. All right. Got it.

Yeah. Yeah. It's like, it's just like, write this one down. You will make it happen. So watch out. You don't want it to happen. Don't give it to him. Yeah. But no, it's, and I think it's also like interesting because it comes from a lot of my like post production side, which I loved. Like I was really good at film editing and in like uni. So a lot of that came out of that.

I think I like managed to, especially in my year, I've managed to edit one of the most like difficult films because it was like directed. So it was like a really well written script and was very particularly directed in a certain way. And I think I had to remove an entire scene because, and there were like countless discussions about whether we should remove it. And it was like rated by my editing teacher as one of the best he'd seen in years. And I was like, well, this is a positive.

And it was like me and some other guy, a lovely man called Frank, who was from Scotland and Frank. It's not Frank. It's Frank. Frank. We do honor to the name. So I've got to know that Frank was there. And yeah, he was, he was amazing. And he also did the other film that I think was picked at the best. But there were like other ones that, you know, like you got category of best written, best directed and best edited, and I think he and I were like tied for like best edited.

But yeah, we were the ones who were just like loved doing editing class, but also kind of just ended up probably in predominantly like non editing. It's always a way when you love editing and you love, but I think I'm so particular as an editor. I love editing when the director like loves what they've done, not when I don't know what the director loves. Yeah, come on. Like, it's very hard to edit for someone who doesn't. Yeah, I know.

I think it's also like, I sort of being like on and off, I think, you know, like, if anyone knows my family history, it's like my dad's a photographer. And that sort of like leverage gives me a little bit of more of an understanding of like composition and everything. Because I grew up like sitting around him and just going, okay, well, you spend about eight hours here and you're taking it on film.

But every time I watch something that hasn't been thought out about composition or I guess just in terms of what's happening in the scene. And I think the way I work is I'm very adaptable to everything. You can't, even if you plan, you can't be too rigid. It's impossible. And things go wrong all the time, like things, you know, so you have to kind of think back doorways and getting out of things.

And I think one of the best experiences I had was, you know, like in between directing my own stressful things and like producing was just working with children. Because we had this set where we like literally we weren't knowing if it was going to rain. And we had a backup plan of shooting indoors. And I remember the director just went, oh, I haven't really thought of a backup plan. Like he hadn't even thought of it.

And I was producing and the first idea and I just like came up with a backup plan. Like we were just like making notes and loving it. And I think it was all down to just kind of having that mentality of like, well, if something falls over or someone calls in sick or something, there's always like how much time, like how is the quick turnaround? Can you make something out of like someone not being on set?

And yeah, like the advantages of a few weeks back, I ended up doing sound for one of my days, which, you know, like I even knew in the day, because the wind was so strong, we had those like high winds on a Sydney beach and we filmed it. And I was like, probably most likely I have to ADR it. But I was like in the back of my head, I was like, well, I'm going to try my best to get as good enough sound as this is.

But I also know, and I spoke to all of us, I was like, you might have to come back later and rerecord some of these lines because they are just like, you know, like the wind is so high no matter what you say. And you're also physically running. So it's like, okay, yeah, I know. I'm like, good luck. So yeah, there's a lot of things that I kind of think outside of that box.

But that's also been, I think, working in a tech department for so long and seeing what it's like with real life TV, and especially like live broadcast, you learn how things like affect on air so quickly. Like we've had live crosses from like international crosses, you know, and, you know, people get so funny about things like delay where it's like you're on the other side of the planet. So you know, if no one knows how the satellite works, you shoot a signal up in the sky.

That's about a second ago is down again. That's the second if it's got to jump around the world, it's got to go up again, down again. So you got three seconds. People think that's like eternity. It's actually great because you know, like it means you've got three seconds to work out a problem before it hits where you're seeing it or you know, if yeah, so it's like you're constantly ahead of the game.

But yeah, everything I do is like you can fix something 10 seconds before it goes to an air and no one will notice. Like I've had that happen. So interesting. Yeah. So it's like, I'm very good at that like Eureka moment. Yeah. Or like having many, many backup plans that you have to go through very, very fast.

Yeah. And I think, I think it's also like, I try to work with very similar like-minded people because when I've worked, especially because I'm like, whether I'm doing something paid or free, I always try and get there early or like on time. Like I try to aim for the two because I think like the lesson you learned in school and TAFE, which was early is on time and on time is late. It was a very weird mentality, but I remember that always being the thing.

And I think just because I've been on set where like some people are an hour late or two hours late and you're just like, you do really impact the entirety of the production if, or like everything. Like what's the worst like situation other than like an, you know, an actor. Like what's been the worst for you? Oh, for me. Well, yeah, this actress not even coming to the set. Literally having to be like, cool, I guess we'll just shoot without her then. And put her in later somehow.

Yeah. Which have you edited it all out together yet? Yeah, it works. It works? Yeah. I mean, it made, so I did the first edit, then I gave it to, again, my producer was already on the project by this time. This is an editor that he knew who's this really nice director who's also an editor. And when I gave it to him, he's like, okay, my process, I mean, even though you've done an edit, that's like a guideline for me.

But I'm going to still look at all the raw material and look at like, look at everything. I was like, yep, sure. But just, just a heads up, like some of these scenes I've literally edited it in probably the only possible way that they can be edited just because of how we shot. And I wish that there had been a produce on set or like a proper AD to kind of keep track of a lot of things.

Because maybe some of them can be nice to have more cutaways because we were shooting in this really weird style of how like not being there. And you know, sometimes you're racing the light, you're tired. I had to go to like the doctor at some point on the last day. So we had to finish my mid days and get my doctor appointment. Everything was just like random. So for the editor, it was kind of like a challenge, you know, for me to edit it first was a challenge. And then for him to go on.

I'm just trying to think if there were any other experiences like of that level. No, that was probably, there was a very funny one though when I was, because in Bosnia, we were working on each other's sets. So I was usually the first AD of the others. That was like my role. So everyone, like at the beginning, you're all kind of playing different roles. And then people understood like who was good at doing which thing. So like some people, you'd always ask them to be the cinematographer.

Someone you'd always ask to be the sound. And sometimes it changed a little bit because I mean, all of us could do all of the things, but you kind of fell into the patterns. And again, like you would kind of shoot with the same people. Like you liked the energy of this person on set, so you'd bring them on. And we had a similar experience to what you're describing of like something had gone wrong.

And we're just sitting there like smoking a million cigarettes, having a million coffees, calling all of these different people with the schedule, me and the director. And it was because in Sarajevo, if you go out the one of the exits of the city, because the city is a valley and it's a split city, the same way the country is split. So part of it is Republika Srpska, which is the Serbian part. And part of it is the federation, which is the Bosniak part.

And if you go out one exit of the city, you immediately go into the Republika Srpska part, who have a different police, a different police. Oh, yeah. So the part of the road that the director wanted to shoot on, we got the permit. But the lady who was in charge of production at the school, she'd only got the permit for the federation, not for that road, which was actually a Republika Srpska.

And she had kind of like not really realized properly because she was, you know, making mistakes randomly, but also it was super confusing of like, how do you do this? And then we were trying to understand that there were different regulations. Like there was a police escort that we had to have. But then the police escort was only free on Tuesday between like 8 and 8.30, something very random. And all of these things, there were a hundred other factors. Like the actor was also only free.

You know how it is, you know, like rescheduling. So it was so funny, like sitting in this cafe, we're like both of us on the phone, like, OK, can the police do this? Talking to her, can you organize this? And like it was such a high energy, like we hung up in our eyes, we're like shining. We're like, we love this. It was so funny. It was like it was just complete chaos. And like we're looking at the schedule and like, wait, I have an idea.

I was like, my God, this is like this like super AD side of me. That I'm just like so happy to like move the schedule around. Because in some ways it's very creative as well. But in this way that you wouldn't really think, you know, like usually you're exploring your creativity in another direction. Yeah. So to like explore this side of like scheduling creativity was like, ooh. Like, look at me rescheduled everything. Yeah, exactly. Like, wait, how much do you really love that scene?

Like, could we do this? And at some point I was like, yeah, we can cut it. We can cut it. I was like, no, but I love that scene. No, it's gone. We cannot have the shop. Very dramatically, like throwing bits of scripts in the air. So yeah, that was the other time I can think it's very like chaos, chaos arriving. But I don't know, every production has its own little corner of chaos at some point for whatever reason.

That just reminds me of like when I had to book like the Helensburg Tunnel a few years back, which is like I found out through trying to book it through the council that it was Crownland and it wasn't owned by council. It was owned by the Crown. Wait, you had to write to the Queen? Yeah, it's really felt like that. Yeah, the ex-Queen no longer. And I think it was such a back and forth of just trying to work out who owned it.

And then finally I got on to the right people and they were just like, oh, yeah, no, you can have it. But it was such a I remember just being like sitting there with email chains, like probably like 50 emails going back and forth of what papers I was meant to fill out and who was meant to fill out what. And yeah, it's the same like it's the same recently.

If you go up to Kayama, Bombo Quarry is owned by the Waterland, Sydney Water as well as Kayama Council, but there's certain sides that they own and there's a split right down the middle. So so there's like all these like, you know, all these famous sites that you're in Australia, like the permits are just nuts. Like there's always like, oh, which side are you filming on? Because that affects how much you know, the charges. Wow. So you just I'm going to film on the cheap side of the river.

Yeah. And basically, I think I got the free side and then we ended up using the costly side because no one was there to stop us. And it was really weird because I always find like permits like you get because it's just easier, but there's always like public access and people always end up there like you never really own the road. But don't you ever wonder like in retrospect, like what if one day someone from that council goes to watch your movie and they're like,

that looks like the blah, blah, blah side. I don't think they paid for that. Do they have a permission? Like it's not in the credit. You know what I mean? Yeah, I know. It's kind of weird, like fear or guilt that like one day someone from the council will watch your film and realize like, I don't remember them paying for that rock. Yes. What do you mean? They shot there.

But there's interesting part of like sometimes you can't put down a tripod, but if you're in a crew of less than five, you can shoot without paying. Yes. So like there's these other like strange corners. They're like, cool. Everything's suddenly very handheld. Yeah. It's like in Sydney, if you want to shoot in Greater Sydney, you don't have a crew more than eight or nine people. It's pretty big. Well, including cast. Yes. Yeah. Right.

Yeah. So it's quite small and therefore you don't really need a permit. And like, look, there are some parks that they don't give a crap about, like as long as you don't make up ruckus. But yeah, like a lot of heritage land and everything like that, they do like you signing permits, like because, you know, they just, you know, it's people. They just like to know that their land is being used and where it's going to be advertised.

But it is a funny process. I've done it too many times. I've done it so many times. And I think like one of my favourite friends from uni helped a lot with it because he used to work in the tax office. And so he would be the one who kind of like helped me understand a lot of the legalities. Because, yeah, had I learnt straight out of uni, I wouldn't have had a clue what I was doing. Because like no one ever teaches you.

Yeah. Like where do you learn this stuff? I mean, unless you go and intern in a production office. OK, that's probably, yeah, that's where you learn it. That's when you learn. Yeah, I know. Because, yeah, like though with your like filmmaking and everything, like because did you, you've done performing as well. Like you're a bit of a performer. Would you call you like what kind of performer would you call yourself? A failed one. Completely failed. Who changed side of the camera.

No, yeah, I never think of myself anymore as a performer until I accidentally perform and I'm like, I love this. Yeah, it's really something. Yeah, I left behind when I changed side of camera. No, yeah, I actually that's not true. I didn't really because the first film I was acting in it. Yes. But my main energy was on directing it and then all that. Like I was kind of in it even to kind of support the guy who was acting.

So I understood that like instead of telling him what to do, who was a non actor, I could feed him energy and feed him lines by being there with him. And, you know, we'd talked about it and like this. But then, of course, you couldn't direct him because you were there in the scene. It's not going to be like, excuse me, you have to say that better to me. No, you're in the shot. It doesn't work. So it's a different way of directing by jumping literally in.

And we had a very good connection, like really trustful, full of trust. Yeah. Trusting connection. So that really helped. But yeah, I don't think of myself as a performer much anymore. But yeah, I really like it still. I was accidentally in a shooting in Italy and I was kind of like, I hope someone spots me. I hope someone asks me to do more of this work because it's very easy and very fun. Yeah. Easy, I mean, because I wasn't doing anything.

I'm not saying the work is easy because, you know, you have to do a lot of stuff. But I also think like when you're acting, you have to have a very specific relationship with your own emotions. And having done acting or like from when I was a kid, I was doing like speech and drama. So you're kind of studying how to use the voice or how to move in the space, how to improvise this kind of stuff. It's usually just solo. But anyway, you give a lot or don't give a lot.

But you are using your emotions and using your like muscle memory and emotional memory. And if you aren't emotionally OK, it can really make a huge mess. Yeah. For yourself, you know, or you can just be shit because you try and get there emotionally and you just can't because in yourself, you haven't explored that side of your emotions. So it's a big thing to ask someone to act for you.

And because I've been on that side of it, I feel like I can understand better as a director, like what I'm actually asking them to do. Which is also, yeah, it's important because there has to be this kind of trust. Yeah. Yeah. Because like with your own emotions and everything, you know, especially with creating, like it's a very, I think, very vulnerable thing to do, especially write stories, because there's a little bit of element.

Like, even though you're like, oh, I write them around people I know and stuff, there's always a little bit of element of ourselves in everything that we do. Like, how in touch are you with your own emotions? Getting better. In terms of like work stuff, I feel you're always making your best work when you're going home in your work. So you're making from a place of very much your reality, even if it's not a physical reality, maybe it's an emotional reality.

But there has to be something true that comes from you in this space. But yeah, it took me a long time to kind of let myself be vulnerable in all the way, but also not really like this. First of all, I made it was like incredibly revealing. And in some ways it's like, cool, maybe I can't talk about my emotions, but I can put them in a film. So then you also have this strange game of like, maybe instead of this film, you should just do some therapy.

Because, like, you know, it's a product, people pay and watch it and they pay you to do it. So people have to want to watch something, it has to be visual, visible. So there's also this space of like the films that are maybe like private personal films that are a kind of like just creative outlet that can be like essay films or these kind of things that don't take a lot of money to make or produce and maybe no one will ever watch them.

But they're also part of the creative process, they're like the side projects you have to do. And for me, this is a very nice like process of the emotions to put certain films or projects like this. Yeah. That maybe are not for the consumption of the others, because I would never ask someone to like watch my therapy diary or whatever. Yeah. But that... And also like this practice of combining images, it for me is very relaxing.

So often I am doing collage, physically combining images, because it's very similar process. And again, it's a way to like meditate on a person or an idea. Yeah. And it's not a very profound thing. I mean, Pinterest is already doing this, you know, like you're just making a mood board, it's not really profound at all. Yeah, whatever. But I really like it. Yeah. And this as well helps me to process the emotions. Yeah. Yeah. Do you like... Because that must be difficult in some ways as well.

I mean, I collect a shit ton of paper everywhere I go. Yeah. Wait, are we talking about collaging or what? Both, collaging and therapy, self-therapy. Because I mean, like, you know, I think like... Love you. No, seriously, like, I literally came back here and unpacked my bag and I'm like, ah, all of these images I collected last time. I was so happy to find this like giant stack of like useless paper.

I mean, do you feel like, you know, that are you one of those like people who just goes, oh, you know, like trauma is what defines my filmmaking or like, you know, because I know a lot of people talk about like, you know, I guess the trauma artist that, you know, like, especially when we make film.

And I know I'm a big advocate of mental health, but I've noticed the other side of the coin, which is like, what's it, you know, being called a drama queen or everything like that, or, you know, like, you know, like Em's father gets worried and, you know, and I'm like, destigmatizing a lot of like pent up things. But when I do remember like a lot of friends being like, troubled artist tonight. You know, art is my soul and my torment.

And I don't know, I just like, I don't, I don't feel like anything that I've ever created is really like, truly, I think they're always elements, but I don't like, though it's interesting that you say that because I think with this podcast, I've talked more openly about anything than I even probably like told my therapist really in one setting, because it's like this recording booth that has no judgment. And like, it's talking into the black box. Yeah, it's a little bit like that.

But yeah, it's a funny process because I think there's like a huge misconsumption, like miscommunication, like assumption of, you know, like that, you know, what we do or how we deal with things is like not based on sort of some sort of like, you know, we're always happy or we're always enjoying what we do and then we don't have any like downtime and like doing little art things like collages and, you know, collecting ideas is like,

I just sort of like write notes and sometimes like organizing a schedule is like really therapeutic to me. I'm like, oh, now I know my week. Like, I find those more therapeutic than I do actually, like sometimes making a film. I find that way more stressful. Actually, yeah, for me, like a lot of time I have trouble differentiating between reality and fantasy. Really? Very, very in my head and very floating.

So there's something very beautiful in the writing process because you're in pure fantasy, you know, and obviously part of the process, the way I'm writing is pulling it into something that's filmable and that can be real and that can be made together because of the way I like to work. You're making it together. So it's almost like two processes, one and some piece of me is like, why don't you just be an author?

Again, just because you want to, not for anyone to read, but like do that too, like write random stories that are set maybe in space, something that is just not going to happen when you film it. Because in some ways, the way my film process is also limiting to what I can imagine. Yes, you can only film what can be filmed. Yeah, small budget, small crew and together. But yeah, I mean, I love that. I was going to ask, what do you like love? What goes on in your head?

What's the sort of normal thought process, especially like with genres and ideas? What, like, where do they all come from? Oh yeah, I remember why I said this before. So it's connected to this question that, sorry, I'm really tired. An image comes into my mind and then it disappears. This is to answer why I'm not answering directly and also to answer the question directly. It's both. An image comes into my mind and then it disappears.

And it's like on some subconscious level as an archive of images. And some of them have already fit themselves into different stories that at some point will be made or will not be made. Because a lot of films exist in your head and you see them the entire thing. But maybe you would just never make it. And that's also fine. But yeah, so there's often these very strong images, like from a dream or even from dreams.

And then it's a process kind of like collaging of understanding how these fit together. And for me, because it's quite a subconscious process, it actually helps me to look at what photos I've been taking recently. Or at what images I've been pulling out of the pile of images that I collect. It's almost like reading the tarot. You read the Tarot Key and you're like, OK, here is this that's come out. And you're like, how strange.

So like for a period, there were these, I was like what you're naturally very drawn to, like when you meditate and you open your eyes and where your mind kind of fixes straight on. So a lot of it is kind of like this. And then there's also these logical things like, OK, yeah, I know I'd like to make a film in this place. So like I'd like to make a film like with this actor. I was like, I want me to make a film with this actress.

So like, how do I combine her and who she is with these ideas that I'm interested in exploring, with these images that have been popping up around and in my mind? Yeah. So it's this kind of, yeah, like collaging, collating process of bringing all these elements together to then write something or make something, which, yeah, or just not write something and make something. Like write it and then never make it, because that's also like definitely reality. Just like keep doing that.

Especially if it takes two years to make it, you know, like I'm at a point now where I'm actually going to write a bunch of projects and then go in this more professional angle of like pitching for funding for them. Because it's tiring to be in this space where you have these ideas and you have this vision, but it's going to take so long or you're limited.

And it's like, okay, better to go more slowly and focus on one or even put like two or three seeds out into the world and see what comes back rather than like freezing up and be like, oh, I'm not going to write it until I have the actors and locations. Yeah. Just write something and put the seeds out there. Then you can develop it more if there's some feedback coming back. Yeah, I agree with that. I think I always encourage people to write as well. Never stop really like writing.

I sort of always thought outside the box of just giving people challenges. I'm very good at giving people challenges because I'll go to them like if I ever want anyone to like challenge themselves, I go, here's like write a story. Here's your limitations of what you can do. Actually, there's a really cool director who made a book about this. It's called like something like, let's say, 52 situations.

And he looked in all there was an essay written about, I want to say theater, maybe fiction books, that there are only a certain kind of narratives and certain kind of stories. So he adapted that to cinema and he's like, okay, there's only like, let's say, 52 different situations that can happen. And then he made these playing cards that come with the book.

And there's this game that you can play that you just like take out three situations and then you have to write a script based on those three situations. It's really cool. Oh, wow. It's like an exercise. I mean, it sucks if you're like, murder, betrayal, incest. You're like, cool, that's not what I wanted to make a film about today. But they are the key things in the story. Let's begin.

I mean, my favorite films tend to probably be quite like human based as well as like a look into, you know, kind of what the main character is going, like a character study. I love character study films. And I particularly like, I think it's always helped because, you know, like growing up watching a lot of late night SBS movies, which were just, you know, like on TV back when kids watch Free to Air. I remember Free to Air. I was imagining it the other day.

I was like, return on your TV and there'd just be things showing. Yeah. And they would be halfway through and there'd only be five options. Yeah. And you just kind of kept with it. You didn't argue. No, that was my entire childhood. And I think, you know, 90s kid. And I think like, you know, this is the thing about streaming and so on and so forth.

But I was watching like, I think what I love, especially about like independent art form as well as like, you know, it's a mixture between like professionalism, you know, and independent form is like, you know, directors who can do both or like, you know, you know, you have that indie feel to them, but also have a layer of truth and character study and everything.

And I think it's funny, like, you know, with the world being glossed over by superhero films and stuff, which sort of like feels a little bit mediocre now. Yeah, it's confusing why this is still a thing. I think it's because a lot of kids just like shiny things. It's odd. Like, how is it possible they keep popping out more superhero films, but also for adults, no? Like all of them. And I'm so confused. Like, so didn't we already have like eight of these? Yeah. And aren't they all a bit the same?

Maybe they're not, because I actually haven't watched them. So maybe they're all like doing, you know, different kinds of character study. I mean, I'm sure they are different plots, but... I've watched all of them. And sometimes when they do it right, they do it right. And then sometimes when they do it wrong, I'm like, OK, that was nice. But it's because they are drawing on this this fan base of these comics, right? Like they're not inventing these stories or these characters.

No, I think they're only about like the only invention they have is like writing their own like connection to it all, but like to make a bigger thing. But I think like, you know, like. You know, the fact that it's all owned by Disney conglomerate now and, you know, like, and I and I think because like I was watching every time I watch like Star Wars or stuff right now, I just kind of I'm a bit worn out. I like I love the original trilogy and I think I reason I love it.

And it's the same with like Indiana Jones and stuff like old movies was because they were kind of made from the ground up. They knew what they were. They were made very cheap. Like I love the fact that Star Wars, the first one was made by George Lucas. And he basically said, I don't care about money. All I want is merchandise rights. And he made bank off just merchandise. Like, you know, that was the smart. Like he was a businessman, he knew. But the same like I watched.

I go girl watching Alfred Hitchcock and a lot of those films, some of them look really cheap and then some of them look like amazing. Especially like that. It was really interesting because when he went to Hollywood, he didn't like it that much. Like there was a few films that he like were very particularly Hollywood.

And he actually struggled more with that than he did with making films outside of the Hollywood brand, like Psycho, which I think was the most controversial film because he killed his main character off in the first like 20 minutes. And everyone was like, what the fuck are you doing? Like, you can't do that, even though it happened in the book. Like it happened and he took it solely from, you know, like material.

But yeah, apparently, according to the execs department, they were very annoyed that he did it even in the film. It's radical action. Yeah, I know. But, you know, like there's all these films that I sort of like look back on to. And I think. You know, like I think one of my favorite Robert Eggers is one of my favorite directors at the moment, because he's a, you know, production designer, you can really tell by like Lighthouse. Weird. I love that film. It's so cool.

It's so good. Like William Defoe and Robert Patterson are like. What a crazy combination. I know. But if you like, OK, like if in the moment of Twilight, you were like this guy who's being this weird vampire thing, he's going to end up in this like dark, crunchy film with William Defoe and in like 10 years. I don't know how long it was.

Yeah, but he was like, no. But it's also just like, I think the thing was I went to go and see it with a friend who didn't expect halfway through to see Robert Patterson masturbating to a mermaid like like or having sex with one. I go back to the same thought, like go back to Twilight time. Yeah. In 10 years, this is what he's going to be doing. And you're like, wait, what? I think it was like, you know, like way wackier.

But I think the thing I love about Robert Patterson, he's like always said in interviews, like give me weird scripts, like give me like weird fucking things because he like he loves independent film. So does William Defoe. Like William, though, is like a huge independent actor. Lives in Rome, you know. Yeah, he does. He was in Abel Ferrara's film of some years ago, Thomas. So, yes, playing Abel, which is kind of crazy. Yeah, the court that's. Yeah. I'm with with Abel's wife and kid in the film.

Just kind of crazy, too. Wow. Interesting. He's had a career. Doesn't he speak a few languages? He tries to speak Italian. Fails. No, no, he's he's good. Like he speaks it. But it's hard to act in a different language. Yeah. I don't know how often he's acting a film completely in Italian. Yeah. How's it because you live in Italy now. How good is your Italian? It's OK. Yeah, I can survive. Do you feel like you've picked up an accent now at the time?

Apparently, in the last period, I got a Milan accent. Yeah, which is not popular for the rest of Italy. But that's that's where I've been living. So I absorbed this. You very like because I feel like this is where your performer comes out. You just adapt a bit. Yeah. Yeah. Like also with the body language. And it's it's a bit confusing because I mean, I'm not Italian, so I don't have to think in this way. Or and I don't really go all the way to the thought level.

But in terms of like certain attitudes, it's like I actually don't feel like that. Like, why do I have to behave in this way? But it's like you're absorbing so much of the surroundings that kind of pops out in different in different ways.

Yeah. But it's kind of fun with the language, actually, if you absorb the face of the language, not that maybe you don't have so much vocabulary, but you're doing the right facial expressions or like the right like like these strange noises that happen or like certain ways of replying or like certain kind of slang that isn't really even slang. It's things that more like children say. Yeah.

And if you start to do those things, you actually don't have to speak that much of the language and people will think that you understand them really well and that you can you can speak much more than you can, which is quite interesting. It's kind of performative side of language. Oh, my God. It's really interesting. I really like this. I feel I spend more time learning that than trying to like learn vocab. Because you're like, what's the right sound effect for the situation?

No. Why don't you just learn some adjectives? No, I must know. Oh, my God. Objectives are overrated. I know. It's like, you know, I think that's really interesting. I like also that you talked about your, you know, coming back to Sydney and also like loving where you live now and having less connection to Australia than you used to. Do you think then like what brings you always back here? What's what's the main reasons that you come back to Australia these days?

Interesting. Each time a bit different. So the first time the first made my COVID essentially. Yeah. Now I've come back for work and work on a documentary that will shoot a bit in in the north. And also, I wanted to come back. I have friends here now and like have a nice community here. It's Christmas. So family stuff. Previously, I was coming back more like, yeah, it's time to visit my family. I haven't been back to Australia for a while.

Or like it's time to figure out how to finish university, you know? So more like life admin or family things. But yeah, being here for two years forced to be here. Like it definitely wasn't my choice, let's say. I wouldn't have thought to come back. But it was a very good action because to like, we put down the roots now, because since this time of when we met in university, I hadn't really been back for two years. I'd been back for two months, three months, you know?

And you grow a lot since that time and you change. And I had changed what I was doing and changed major. So you kind of drift apart from those friends that you know, at least I did from the people I'd met then. Still, like, love to catch up with them, but you've gone in different directions now. And that's, you know, that's fine. That's what life does. So, yeah, it was very beautiful to come back and make new connections with Australia.

Still with some old friends, but then having new characters and a new reality. Even if like, there's also this odd awareness that because I've been so long away now, I'm able to live here as an expat in a way that I hadn't before. Not... I think it's more of a mentality. It's like, doesn't really change anything I do physically or like anything really. But in the sense of like, let's take advantage of these amazing things that are in Australia.

Whereas in the past, I was like, OK, like, I guess I'll just be here. Now it's like, oh, so cool that there's like this amazing place to swim. We're like, how amazing the nature here. Oh, let's go and have like a picnic on the cliffs. Like, ah, let's play music in this location. How cool. And like exploring and going around. And that definitely wasn't my attitude before. And really, like here, there is such a good nature, you know.

In the in the middle of the city, like we're living in such a crazy place to have the ocean like right there that you just don't have really anywhere else. Maybe in Portugal a bit. Yeah. But to have a city like this is really incredible. So, yeah, it's cool to reconnect to this. I love that you're kind of like a tourist in, you know, like your own city. It's it's kind of the way to be. It's a nice way to be. It's a nice way to live. Yeah.

Like, I mean, tourist is maybe one step too far, but I mean, but no, but at the same time, yes, why not? Because like Sydney is massive. Yeah. Like there's so many national parks inside the city. Yeah. There's all like the Blue Mountains, the Royal National Park. And I don't know, I had never really explored like this side of my interests in Sydney before. Like when I was in university, I was just here in the West. Yeah. Yeah. And this like city like, oh, cool. Like, what's the cool new bar?

What's the cool cafe? Yeah. I think it's also like remembering you back in the day versus you now. Like I can see, like I can see the difference because like, yeah, it was very you back then from like, you know, I was very young as well. But I think it's like, you know, you did see that kind of like, like a little bit more like Sydney, Sydney kind of whatever, like uni work, uni work, like I'm going to get away from all this anyway.

And there was less of a connection. And I think now it's like you've come back with just like bright eyes and kind of like excitement. I think it's an attitude now. Yeah. Because also at that time, like I was super into wanting to be in China and wanting to be in that place, even if it wasn't actually China, but that kind of place where you're interacting with people from all over the world, like this very international feeling.

And so Sydney wasn't stimulating me in that way. And because I was very interested in this more like urban landscape, Sydney wasn't stimulating that either. And now it's like, OK, well, why don't you just be stimulated by the reality that you're in? So, I mean, Sydney has this amazing side of it. That's that's great. And actually, I don't know, it's also like a slow change in pathway, you know, to kind of go a bit more back towards the nature and towards the ocean.

And it's so nice. Like it's something I really missed this period in Europe, like to not have the ocean there. It's something very crazy here. And also like what's nice here is you can meet your friends for free, you know? Yeah. And I know that a lot of people like to meet their friends in a bar or a pub or for a coffee. But here, like you can meet your friend on a cliff or like in a park by the ocean or in a park, not by the ocean anywhere.

And you can be in such a nice. I think actually it also depends if it's raining or not. I understand it's been raining like constantly this last year and the last years. But when it's not raining, theoretically, you can meet anywhere and not pay to see your friends, which I also really appreciate. Yeah, you're not kind of like told you can't sit in the park or you know. Yeah. Or like, I don't know, in Milan, there's not so many options for this.

So it's like, OK, I have to. I mean, it's not like a coffee. I mean, it's one euro coffee. So it's not. But conceptually, I like the idea that you can go for a walk with your friend. And I think that changed a bit here in Covid because I never thought of Australia in that way before. It was still a thing. They're like, hey, let's meet for a coffee. And then in Covid, it was like, let's meet for a walk. Yeah. This is so much better.

Yeah. So it's nice to walk and talk. It's nice to think and be in the nature, even if it's in this. I don't know. I think for me, Covid changed a lot of how I was seeing the city. Yeah, it's interesting. I always sort of think that Covid is one of those things that really changed how I saw people in a good way. Not in a negative way, but I think it was like it also made me just really appreciate the effort that people put in as well.

And kind of just like what I got out of it as well, because I was living on my own for two years. So I just had this hunker down. No one other than my parents I went to see. And so that really taught me a lot about who came into my life, who came out of my life. And now there's friends that I don't even speak to. I'm quite similar to you as in like I just drift away from some people and that's fine. Like I've just accepted that kind of like, you know, and there's new people.

Like I'm constantly making new friends all the time because I'm like, you know, I think it's exciting to live that way. And, you know, there's so many people I haven't met yet and we'll meet one day. But yeah, like I do, you know, like I think you just, COVID's really helped connect with people on very different levels than it used to. Like I think I don't, you know, talk about super, I want to say superficial things, but you're not talking about similar interests.

You're kind of almost talking about life experiences and, you know, and things that actually feel a bit more character defining than you just being like, oh, I like this show. Yeah, me too. It's like, yeah, now I'm just like, you know, because everyone was living the same life for like two years. It kind of really taught you to kind of really open up and, you know, communicate properly. Yeah, actually, yeah, that's a good point. I didn't think of it like that.

Yeah. The subject matter of the conversation becomes deeper somehow.

I mean, like I definitely lost friends because of how like how open I became, which, you know, I don't take as a bad thing, but I definitely like, you know, when I talked about my like life experiences, my own mental health and everything, I think it was just like, some people didn't, you know, like come to terms with their own experiences in life and therefore just like, like my favorite term is I got put into the too hard basket, which is always my favorite term.

And I think it just made me appreciate like things that I do and the things that I love was really from COVID because I like, you know, like I think when before COVID, I really had the busyness of life. I really hated this sort of like sense of you do everything, you had to meet deadlines, like you had to be a certain age to do things like you got to do it all before you're 30, you know, like, and now I just don't care. Like I'm just very like.

But yeah, well, this is before you're 30. For me, what I really appreciated was you didn't have to have a plan anymore. It was always so hard. Everyone was like, so what are you planning to do? What's the next step? I didn't know when it arrives, it will happen, you know, but you always had to have a next step and have the next idea of like, where are you going to go next? Or even like how am I going to deal with my visa? Everything, anything like this.

And in COVID, that was all kind of deleted, at least for me, also because coming back in Australia, back to Australia, I didn't need to worry about a visa anymore. So that was great for one thing, for sure. That was amazing. But to not be able to plan, which in some ways was pretty stressful, but on other ways was like so liberating. It was like, yeah, I don't know what's going to happen in six months. Am I going to be here? Can we leave yet? Who knows?

But I'm here now. It was almost like all of this like meditation concepts and ideas of being present were like thrown in your face. It's like, OK, now you actually have to live like that. Do that meditation, Buddhist stuff, that thing you were thinking about. Yeah, actually live like that now. So pretty nice. I really liked it. Because do you classify yourself as very spiritual? Yeah, probably. Yeah. I mean, classify myself. I don't like to put names on things.

You don't watch a label, are you? I really struggle with actually. But yeah, I would say I'm spiritual. Yeah, because like I mean, I can see it like, you know, because like, what do you what do you love, I guess, about sort of connecting with people? What's your favorite thing to do? You know, because you're such a you love, I guess, really connecting and like scoping out people. What do you love about that so much?

I think for me, it's a learning process. So I'm very curious of how other people are doing their lives, because I'm learning how I can do my life. And I think my whole life, I'll be learning how I can do my life. Maybe at the end, I'll be like, aha, got it. That's how you should do life in a good way. But I don't know, even this word should, I don't really believe it.

So it's very interesting because I'm so curious, like everyone has made different choices, you know, on every level of like how to behave, of how to interact, of how to live. And it's like completely a choose your own adventure, you know, your life. And I find that fascinating. And also like questioning for me, it's so interesting, this idea of the society, you know, and because I'm moving culture quite often, you get this quite culturally relative perspective of basically everything.

So it's very interesting to meet people and to try and understand like which things come from them personally, which thing come from the society. And for me, I'm always very curious of this on some level of like, how interesting, because then you can kind of start to see patterns like, ah, like other people are also thinking this in this space and in this reality right now.

So when you're arriving in places with fresh eyes, I mean, or trying to keep fresh eyes after a while of being in a place, for me, this is very interesting. And one of the things I really like when you're like talking to people and kind of drawing out, because there is something universal underneath all of it, you know. And that's what's kind of interesting. This thing of in some way we are all connected. So like how, where are the lines?

And how people tell their own stories about themselves and how people draw their own lines. It's like something you were saying before about the traumatized artist idea that is quite interesting because it's a story that you're telling to yourself. And that's in some way even maybe as a justification, but definitely like as a story that you're narrating and everyone tells their own story very differently. And for me, that's really interesting how people are talking to themselves.

Yeah, I think it's like, it's never like sort of the way the, yeah, it's very much like the way I view myself. And, you know, I think over the years I've never really connected with Sydney on a lot of ways. And I think that came out of like just traveling, a lot of traveling, but I've been sort of like, I think I just stuck here because it was convenient. And I think had I told my younger self, I probably would have just left, you know, like hindsight's 20-20.

But I mean, also I just like, yeah, I'm always about like, you know, meeting new people and going out and sort of like hearing, you know, like people's stories because I don't always like what society tells us to be like. I'm very like anti-camperlism and anti-structure. I just think that, you know, we put labels to things that automatically go, well, that's easy. That's where you need to fit in your box and that's what society tells you. And I am terrible at fitting in boxes.

I never have and never will. And I think, you know, even growing up, I noticed that getting older and older. And I think, you know, just the way I identify, the way I see the world through my eyes and then just like gauging people. I'm very good at gauging people. And I think then that puts, you know, like I used to trust people very easily, but now I'm very careful with my trust. Like I use it like very, like a key, which I love.

And I think it comes to the same reason that I love telling certain types of stories. But yeah, it's like my huge love, I guess, for film and like performance based and stuff is kind of connecting to meeting and connecting and, you know, you know, like one on one side making people laugh, but making people feel and connect. Like it's why I love going, you know, I used to go to the art gallery alone. I used to like, I, you know, used to go to the theatre alone.

Like I used to just go and see film and theatre and stuff on my own. Because I never really understood that anyone kind of got it to what I was feeling was the point of half these performance pieces and stuff like that. And I feel like a lot of people just liked mainstream, like mainstream, like Shakespeare and stuff. And I was just like, now there's more to like a lot of like, you know, weird art and, you know, like, you know, so and so called weird art.

And like, I think like there was this really nice old lady who we dog sit for. She's like 70 and she's in a very interesting life. And we were just talking about photography and I just was like, oh my God, you really like get what I love about photography. And she was like, she got me this book, which a lot she's like all about people and, you know, like and like just kind of like there's one which is based on like nude portraiture.

And there's like others that are just based on portraiture and stuff. And I think it was like, oh, I love that because it just kind of tells a story about people and, you know, like with landscape and stuff because like I always say this with my photography. I never alter anything. What you see is kind of what you get. And I really love that about it because, you know, like life is, you know, we're always trying to augment it or change it.

And I think whether it's good or bad, it's like the imperfections of what I love. And I think that, you know, like everyone's flawed and I'm one of those people now who like as a kid, like had so much anxiety to really show all those. Oh my God, I'm like, you know, a war saw or anything like that.

But now I'm just like, no, I have emotions and I think it's sort of getting rid of that toxic behaviors and stuff like, you know, that are ingrained in especially Australian culture and white culture, particularly to get rid of. Because there's a lot of things that drive me mental about Australian white culture and the privilege that I guess is carried by us because it's just very, it's very interesting when us particularly like some people have like our own generation talk.

And I'm like, how are you so blinkered vision about like the way society structured? Like they're just like they've never walked outside of their own little comfort zone and I just get baffled by it. And I think there was actually really great challenge. And I thought like my whole family did when we were in lockdown, mum would organize like a movie night every week and everyone in the family got to pick.

So we'd watch it and like this was back when my brother was, you know, still they're still over there. But like they were living in Germany, him and his wife and like we would set up, you know, like those watch alongs. And yeah, and like so Simon would pick a pick a film, which would be a foreign film. Sometimes I would pick a film, which would be a nineties film, you know, and we do just watch and we kind of like talk about it after what we liked and what we didn't like.

And it was really interesting because like every Friday this would happen for like three months. I think we did this for and it was really nice because I think it just really got everyone out of like what we'd normally watch and what we were comfortable watching to kind of just be like everyone has different tastes. And that's kind of good to really explore.

And yeah, there was like a lot of films that we sort of realized we didn't know existed or, you know, like I guess like the film I remember particularly was the documentary on Netflix, which was the one child policy in China. Yeah. And it was just really eye opening about like just that whole process. And yeah, it's just like having known quite a few like friends who have families have immigrated.

And it's very interesting to hear their perspective of like, you know, just how life is and, you know, and growing up here as well like versus, you know, living their family living over there and I think that's like an eye opening situation that, you know, like we're at 8 billion people now. Like population sizes just massively increasing but apparently like, I think the birth rates down there. In Australia, just in the world's slowly going down like not I don't know what it's like in Australia.

We just don't know what like we're 6 million people I think in Sydney alone. Six or seven. Yeah, six or seven. Yes, it's growing. This is why I since I last had the statistic. Yeah, like in primary school. Yes. I mean, it's like four. Now it's why I was at 14 maybe 14 is the country. I have no idea. Yeah, it's it's you 24. There's some four involved in my memory. We're just slowly going up by 10.

Stump. But I mean like, you know, where, I guess, for you, because you're like, you know, I love that you're such an like, in the way it's a positive thing when I say this because it doesn't want to sound like that. But I love that you sort of see the world as an outsider and you know, like, you know, because did you ever feel like as a bit of the weird kid growing up? Well, yeah, I guess. But I mean, I was a kid in Hong Kong.

So everyone was expat or in my school, if it was like local kids, they were going to school with the expats in English. And everyone was from somewhere else or I definitely we definitely had Hong Kong kids in my class. But now I'm thinking I don't remember why they would be. But yeah, anyway, it was a completely mixed bag. So like you had some like Hong Kong kids, some kids from India, some from very few from Australia, America, really from everywhere.

And like the school celebrated Diwali and Chinese New Year and Christmas. And it was so cool because you had like so many so many holidays. So everyone was weird in their own way. Yeah. But then it's like, OK, so everyone has got this diverse cultural thing going on, even if it was a British school. So like the underlying kind of mainstream culture was still British, British culture. So then you were just like based on your interests. So I was like, yeah, I love Pokemon. You love Pokemon.

We like to play yo-yo, yo-yos in our band. We love Tamagotchi. We can't play them anymore. So it was just like you're just a kid, you know, whatever. For me, it was more strange to move to Australia because I came here in boarding school and I had lived that life compared to here where you're in boarding school with people from the countryside. And I didn't really have the right accent or kind of background culturally at all.

I remember getting in trouble in school because there was this kind of general knowledge quiz and they asked what the Murray was. And I was like, a surname. Apparently it's a river. I've learned now it's a river. But they thought I was being like facetious, you know, that I was being rude. And it was like, well, actually I'm correct because it was a surname. And then the river got named after some dude called Mr. Murray, you know, probably Mr. No, in this time of times.

So technically I was actually correct. And I know I used to know a girl and her surname was Murray. So I was like, I feel I'm correct. But no, so I got in trouble in school like for this, at least at the beginning until I adapted and understood how to fit in. But one thing you realize, I read some study of this that someone gave me once of third culture kids. So like kids who grew up in a different culture.

You get pretty good at adapting. You assess a situation and you fit in. So it's more like a process of understanding as I got older how to stop doing that. How to stop just making it so that you fit in and being much more authentic, just being you and not adapting and shifting yourself so that you would kind of be the same as the others. But to allow like, no, like these are my interests and great. And this is how I behave.

And yeah, I mean, this is, I guess, part of being an adult that you realize, like, if people don't have time for your complexity, then they shouldn't be in your life. And that's fine. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, obviously, like within that, being nice to everyone as much as possible, because, you know, everyone's going through their own journey. Just be nice to people. Just be nice, guys. I mean, it's a simple ask. Be kind.

Yeah. I mean, like, that's really interesting as well. Like, yeah, I don't I sort of like. Why? How long were you in boarding school for? Four years. And then you just. And then my parents moved here. So I switched to being in the day school. Day school. The day school. The boarding and the day. The day. Yeah. Which was strange, because when you're boarding school, you're sleeping in the school in the night.

So you have this weird, different relationship with the school because you see it strange hours. I mean, obviously, technically, you're supposed to be asleep, but you might look out your window. Like, there might be a fire alarm. So you're outside at a weird hour where in the day school, you go home after it's finished. Maybe you have some like extra activity that you stay there for. But yeah, it was a different relationship. So it's weird.

It's like, you know, when you say some things you should do in a certain order, no. So things flow, you're not disappointed. And I definitely went the wrong order. You should go deeper into a place, not more shallowly. Yeah. Yeah. So that was that was interesting. I mean, and where did you where did you finally graduate? Which which school was the school that you graduated from here? Yeah. Which one was it? It was this Ascombe in Edgecliff.

Oh, I like Edgecliff. Yeah. It has a nice train station. I mean, they really they have they have great shops there. They do. I remember getting very good like what's it called? This meringue. Oh, OK. They're delicious. In the shape of a mouse. Oh, wow. They were cute. I remember those. They take me back. They don't do them anymore. So cute. But no, like I'll I'll I think that's really interesting. And like and then sort of like doing uni here and then kind of like doing it partially.

I used to finish it. Like how long did the uni degree end up taking? I'm really bad with numbers on time. So let me think. You've done first aid. That's image based scheduling. It's different. So let's see. There were two years that I was like solidly in Australia. And then it was the third year, I think, that I was on this exchange, which meant that it became four years, something like this.

Like that the fourth year was kind of I was still in China, but doing some random subjects to try and close this extra semester. Yeah, maybe even five because there was some lost subjects, because you know, when you do an Erasmus or in a university exchange, sometimes you don't pass the subject because it was in a different language. I had one like this that at the Chinese University, I wasn't studying Chinese at university. I was studying other things in Chinese with the Chinese students.

Yeah. So I just at some point, like I just didn't really understand how to log into the system to like change my course. I was in this one that was supposed to be like super great. I went once and I was like, this is shit. Am I even in the right room? Because everything was being sent to me on these Chinese style schedules and in Chinese. And I was just not coping at some point. So I think I was supposed to be doing four subjects. I was doing three.

I was turning up to three. So I passed those and whatever the fourth one was that I never actually found where it was. I definitely looked for it for the first two weeks and I was like, well, that's weird. Just like this doesn't exist. Obviously doesn't exist. And obviously it did exist. And I didn't do it. So yeah, I had to pick up a subject. So yeah, that's why it took longer as well. There was some random confusions along the way. And now you're fully graduated.

Fully graduated and graduated the masters as well. So that's cool. Wow. When did you graduate? When did you finish the masters? In Bosnia. That's what I was doing there. Yeah, but what year? 2017. There you go. So you've been completely since 2017. I'm fully fledged useless. Unemployable. Please employ. Please employ. Here's my CD. Coming to you now through the cellways. Yeah. Oh my God. And then you're back for it. And then going back to Italy. So I'm back until the end of Jan.

And I actually had hoped to stay longer. I wanted to stay until March. But I am finally getting a work visa in Italy. An official very good status. But it takes so long to make. So I went to the office in, let's say, October. And they were like, okay, you just have to go in the post office. And it should be that like in two weeks you get the next appointment and then it's done. Okay. I go in the post office and then I, okay. So your appointment is.

And okay. This post office was so funny. Like so funny. They have this kind of crazy mix there of like very old school style post office with like mega, mega modern technology. So the guy who was working there, his hands were like floating over the keypad. Like he's been doing this since the 80s. And it was very like elegant, his gestures, you know, like very beautiful somehow. And then he was kind of like boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, like super modern.

But at the same time, this like very strange, like print of fax machine, but it's like very specific kind of official document paper going in and out like on this one machine, like looping. It was like being in Brazil, you know, it's like how you imagine the future. This film, Brazil, like how you imagine what a visa office in the future could look like. It was so funny. Anyway, out pops this paper like boop, boop, boop, boop, boop.

And it turns out my appointment is not in two weeks, but is in February. So I have to go back for this appointment, which is kind of so annoying. And I was really like, are you sure we can't change it until two weeks time? They were asking me like, do you have any contacts in the ministry? No, I don't. Do you? Asking to my work. But yeah, so I'm going back for this. Oh, awesome. Appointment to be officially visaed for like two months.

And then it already expires because it took them so long to do it. Oh, my God. But yeah, it's a bit frustrating. But that's exciting to say the least at some point. Yeah. I don't know. I just got back. So I really don't want to think about leaving because it's like so nice to be back. But and it's weird that I'm saying that because it's true. Like the me of like five years ago would be like, so how many hours until I leave now? Yeah. Yeah, it's a good situation. It's nice to have you back.

Yeah. But let's see. Also, I mean, right now, my work is based there. Yeah. So kind of following the natural flow of how things go. That's where this project is and maybe subsequent projects. And it would be nice to come in Australia at some point to make work here. Yeah. But I don't know. It's I don't think if I would ever necessarily. I don't know. It's a hard question. Like, do you move somewhere because you like it? Or do you follow where your projects are taking you?

Because at some point you might have to make an actual action of like, OK, I want to be based here because this is the kind of lifestyle I like and that I want. And let's find projects to do here instead of like following where the projects take, which means that you just have to have a random base somewhere that maybe you don't actually like the lifestyle there. And then when there's no projects, you're stuck in a place that you don't like.

So this is what I'm trying to figure out at the moment, like how to combine the things in a good way. Yeah. I'm sure you'll get there eventually. But, you know, like that's that's the age old question, isn't it? Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's like there's no real solid answer. Yeah. I mean, I think everyone finds their own solution. Yeah. And also depends like where you have your people and where you have your community, like we were saying before.

Yeah. But again, you can build community as you were saying, you can make new friends. And it just it's connecting with people who are on the same level as you. Yeah. And this is also possible. Yeah. Just find the people that love it like you do. It's really like the go. It's passionate, passionate and strange. It's like weird, passionate forever foreigners like. Yeah.

No, actually, it's good to have a mix. Like if I'm this forever foreigner character, it's nice to have a mix of friends who are much more rooted. Some of them, some of them are more. Yeah, I don't know. And I like to have this kind of varied cast of characters that on certain levels you're connecting. You're each like very individual and very different to one another. Yeah. Yeah, I really, I really like that. I love that. I love the way you think. Thanks. I think way too much. No, it's good.

I just think it's very unique and I and it's very like not dissimilar to my own brain. I always find that like unique when I look at people like, oh, there's traits in there that I know. I know this twisty dark passageway. I've been down this road before. But I think that's a perfect point to wrap us up. Thank you so much for joining me. My pleasure. Where can people find you? Where can they stalk you on the internet? Probably on Instagram is the best one. EMJ51. Five one. What's the 51?

I like five and I like one. And together they're a pretty nice number. And actually it's very, it's always been my lucky number because I like five, which is the number of freedom and one, the number of like individual independent. Also like three, which is the number of creativity. But usually you only need two numbers for logging into stuff. So if you add a three in that becomes messy.

And I was looking the other day at something and I understood that that's the latitude that I was born on. 51 degrees north. Zero, 51. I was like, that's so weird that it's been my lucky number all my life. And it's actually the latitude of where I was born. Just very like a nice twist. Serendipitous. I accidentally choose the correct lucky number. That's amazing. Yeah. That's incredible. But anyway, that's where you can find me. Insta-GG.

The Gigi. And if you want to go and check out more episodes of The Things We Do, you can check them out on Apple and Spotify. I'll be speaking with another guest next week and I'll speak to you later. Goodbye.