The Things We Do... - Interview with Audrey Blyde

This is the Things We Do podcast, a podcast about film, life, television, culture, mental health and all of that fun jazzy stuff. Today I've got my special guest and friend Audrey Blyde. Hello. Hello. Lovely to be here. Lovely to have you here. Now Audrey, first question, first and foremost question that everyone needs to know, first and primary question, who are you and what do you do? Wow. Who am I?

Yeah, I guess, you know, I probably, when I introduce myself to people, I say that I'm an actor. But honestly, I'm more of a bartender these days. I think, yeah, the line that I tell people when people are like, oh, so what do you do? I say, oh, I'm an actor depending on the week, because I feel like that removes a lot of the, you know, when you're like, oh, I'm an actor and people are like, oh, what does that mean?

And I recently, I went on a date with someone in July who was a tradie and he grew up in Western Sydney and didn't, he just had never really considered that actors were anything other than like famous people. I thought you were about to just say people. I was like really concerned. No, like he, I think he just thought that all actors were famous people and he didn't know the concept of a jobbing actor and stuff.

And so sometimes when you meet people and they're trying to figure you out, like what do you mean? I haven't heard of you and you're an actor. So that's the line that I use really is I'm an actor depending on the week. But yeah, I'm an actor. I love that. I love that it's an actor depending on the week. And I love that that is, you know, only famous people can be actors.

It's not true, but so often, you know, I think in Australia in general, there's a lot of misconception about the arts and what an artist is. And especially, you know, older generations and like my parents' generations still don't really understand what I do.

What you do basically, like I think if you work as a freelancer or you work as like a non-contract based, which is basically what an actor is really, it's kind of like unless you get a long running form, you're really kind of like only attached to a project for so long. And that I think most parents think of that is not like financially. Yeah, it's funny. It's funny. Like also though, I think I think it's particularly our generation. Like it's it's swings and roundabouts nowadays.

And you know, like I don't know when you were born, but I was born in 92. It's like, you know, young baby that then and then like, I think like the nineties was the era where people were like someone like full time work was, you know, stable jobs. And then suddenly 2000s happened. Everyone was like, nah, go, go like, there's full of synchronisation.

Yeah, there's this big kind of societal push to, you know, pursue whatever makes you happy and pursue your own individualism and your own self of expression above anything else. So we've had a real culture shift from even like one generation back. So there's still quite a miscommunication, I think, depending on who you're speaking to. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, did you, when you were little though, was this always kind of like, were you always driven to be an actor? Was that always a termination?

No, no, it wasn't. I didn't really know what I wanted to do at all. Honestly, growing up, I really enjoyed school and I, yeah, I don't, I think for one, for a while I used to say I wanted to be a marine biologist, but I don't think that was actually ever true. I think I just liked the idea of swimming with dolphins or something. And but yeah, and then I was very obsessed with community theatre and drama growing up and obsessed.

Yeah. I was in terrible, terrible productions, anything that I could do at school or outside of school, I was always doing that. And I was always aware that I was good at it. I was good. I had a, I had good natural ability. I had, you know, from teachers or other class members, I always got good feedback and I could sense that there was something that I possessed within me. But I was, you know, I was never particularly confident in that.

I thought it probably was just a big fish in a small pond thing. And so kind of when I graduated, I really excelled at drama in high school, not academically really. I think I only got band five. Oh, can I say that's pretty good though. But yeah. And so it was in my gap year when I kind of decided I would, yeah, I did a six month acting course at the Actors Centre. Oh, okay. And that was kind of a different environment.

Yeah. More than just, you know, associated with, yeah, like a school attachment thing, you know, it was suddenly you're getting into people who, who took it more seriously. Yeah, took it more seriously. And so I think I did that and I was like, okay, no, I'm good here too. I think I'm going to audition for drama schools. And when you hear about how competitive that is, I think when I did get into WAP, I was like, I'm not a WAP-er. So I went to WAP-er from 2015 to 2017.

When I kind of got in, I was like, okay, this is some sort of confirmation that I'm not, like I am, I do possess a natural ability and yeah. I guess. And then that's, I kind of, when I got to go to uni and make art every day, that's when I really loved, I was like, yeah, I want to do this so far. And also there was nothing else I wanted to do as well. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's like, that's great, but always have a lot of like that you're like, there's nothing else for me in life.

Just this, but I mean, like, I feel like, you know, especially with the competitiveness of WAP-er and you know, and I've, I've met a lot of people who come out of WAP-er and I remember like, I used to work at the Seymour centre. So you'd see a lot of the WAP-er grads and, and you know, like stuff like that. And it was always kind of interesting watching people showcase. It was like the most awkward or nerve wracking thing you'd watch.

Because some of the scenes were either great or they were just terrible. It was so hit and miss. It's so tough because you know, we're not, you know, like we're create, you know, like I'm a creative person, but not a business minded person. And so it was really, it was really tough, you know, selecting scenes, selecting the person to do the scene with.

And you know, you're having various different input from teachers or whoever about what roles you suit and where we should pitch you and how we should kind of direct. So it was quite, yeah, I wasn't good at that kind of business minded, I am a product stuff. And that was, it was quite a difficult shift in from suddenly for the first time in third year. That's what we were now thinking about. And it was quite, yeah, it was, it was, yeah, very nerve wracking. I think.

Do you feel like now, especially, you know, having time away from it as well and away from education that you feel like it's sort of taught you a lot, but also made you more grounded in, in sort of like how you see yourself as an outside product, as you say. I guess I'm still not very good at it at all. And in fact, I've had a lot of conflict with my agent. Well, conflict is probably a strong word.

Yeah. I've had a lot of confusion and disagreement with my acting agents over the years about roles that they put me up for and things that I suit. Especially my first year out, I was getting a lot of auditions for kind of all American teenager stuff and, and commercials where they would end up hiring models. And I think my agents had this, had this kind of view of what I suited, but really I had more.

And it took this time, took time to learn, but I think I've always had more of a mature disposition and I was never going to play, you know, all American teenager kind of roles. And yeah, I'm still trying to figure out my niche in the industry really, because yeah, I don't know. I mean, like, I don't think, I think it's kind of like a disposition as well.

And I, and I know, you know, probably from a female acting kind of point of view as well, because there is a little bit of a difference between your male counterparts who just can kind of, I guess, be, you know, less so these days. I think back, back in the day though, if you were, you know, I remember like one of my friends who I knew when he was in his fifties was in Home and Away. And back then he was like super like ripped and everything.

And then like that didn't obviously stay in his fifties. He wasn't quite as fit as he used to be, but he did say that it was very interesting because that was the training ground for him. It was so fast paced, but he also said that it was kind of not the best environment in some ways because like, because you didn't get much rehearsal time and because it was always, but also they did, he did feel like he was miscast and stuff.

And you know, he knew more about who he wanted to play than probably, you know, the producers or the, you know, like the casting agents and stuff. And I feel it's very interesting now, like even now where I see, you know, that actors take form that I don't think suits like, or I, you know, very limited to, and like I just watch Keely Halls, who is a great British actress and she's amazing. And I watched her in the Midwitch Cuckoos.

And it's like one of those things that I, when I see people who I think are good roles and you know, she's, I think she's now in her fifties versus like when I saw her in other shows when she was younger and you know, younger and stuff, and she's played a various amount of career like Cate Blanchett and stuff. I think when you have that sort of, don't give a fuck, like just going to do anything, it's kind of a more of a, you know, less pigeonholed.

And I feel like, you know, agents want to sell, they don't, you know, it's a lot of like, I can see where the disagreements come from because like they want to sell the product and maybe, you know, they see it as a limited, like you're like cheese on a shelf. Who's going to eat the cheese? Yeah. Yeah. Especially in the early days of your career, it's like beggars can't be choosers. Yeah. Whatever you get, this kind of like is kind of what you do.

And maybe, and I didn't always have that with roles necessarily, but even auditions, you know, something comes through and I kind of read it and I was like, I just, I just don't think this is for me, but nevertheless you do it.

And unfortunately what happened for me was in my first year out, I kind of got into this cycle of doing these, a lot of auditions that I ultimately think I didn't suit or wasn't playing to my strengths, I suppose, or, and, um, wasn't getting callbacks and wasn't getting jobs. And instead of kind of at the time having the thought of like, maybe, maybe these is, it's just setting me up for failure. I just, I focused on what I could control, which was my own performance.

And I was like, I must be a bad actor. I must be bad at auditioning. And it took a lot of time and negotiation, I think, to kind of be like, yeah, that's not quite right. I think we should try and maybe I'm, I'm, I'm just being put up for roles that aren't suitable for me. And I, there's, there are a range of roles that I can play. Let's see what's become more available.

And as I've gotten older, I think that has become much more clear because I think I'm growing into the age of roles that I've always suited, if that makes sense. I mean, it does. And I think, um, you do grow as you, I like that you sort of grow into your roles. Um, I definitely think that particularly like when I wanted to be an actor and I looked particularly young until I was probably about 28.

And then suddenly it was just like, I aged, but before then I always had like a really young disposition. And I think I found that frustrating, um, because I was like, I want to play more mature roles. I want to get back into acting. And I think I've always been more interested in like in performance in mature roles and like driven sort of like to that older kind of like distinguished characters. Um, then, you know, you're young, like hip, cool. I could never play.

Um, but I do think that it's very interesting because, you know, like I do consider, do you think that people have always thought you were older because of the way you've presented then you actually are? Yeah, that's. Yeah. I mean, I think it's funny when over the course of my life, yeah, when I tell people how old I am, they're like, Oh, really? I thought you were older. That's usually, but that's happening less and less. I mean, I actually get older.

I mean, like it's, you know, it's in societal, it's very impolite to ask people how old I am. Um, but do you like, I find that like, I think it was the moment I turned 30 and you know, like anyone who knows me, I turned 30 already. But it's, it's one of those things that I, I feel like I looked at photos of myself, headshots even like three, four years ago and I look so much younger. I'm like, what happened? Where did all these age wrinkles come from? Do you, do you, do you like aging though?

Are you embracing every moment of it? I do. Like I do like aging. I think I've, I've always, you know, I would rather sacrifice youth and beauty for, um, experience, wisdom and experience.

Um, there are, you know, I really feel like, um, COVID kind of curtailed the last of my kind of, I mean, I'm 27 now, which is really not that old, but I feel like COVID curtailed the kind of last of my kind of young years where you can kind of get away with, you know, like going out late and I mean, I can still do this stuff. It's all a construct, but you know, like, you know, like I do, I think COVID did make me feel older and more responsible and a lot more world weary.

Um, but I do like getting older. I, you know, I love experiencing and new things and there's more I want to do. And, um, yeah, I think as well being in a creative, um, part on a creative path, it means that you've not kind of, you don't subscribe to this kind of capitalist lie of how your life has to go, right? Like you graduate school, you go to uni, graduate, you buy the car, then you save for a house deposit. You get a partner, you get married, you do all these things.

Whereas I think, you know, I've done so many different weird jobs and, um, you know, I've accepted that, um, unless a miraculous job comes up that changes my life overnight, it's, my career is going to be a slow build. And, um, you know, and I don't know, I don't really feel the weird constraints of this capitalist path of you need to do X, Y and Z by this age.

And I think that being in a creative lifestyle where you're really swimming upstream, um, which is really hard, but in one sense it's, it's a really liberated me. Yeah. I, I agree with that. I think like, you know, COVID's been, I say often the best thing that's happened to me because I think it made me slow down. And it was like the best thing. Cause then I kind of realized what I wanted. And I was like, cause I don't conform to capitalist society at all.

I'm just like, financially I'm like, it supports a lot of things that I do, but in terms of long run, I'm not here for monetary gain. I'm not really here for like, you know, woo, I've got heaps of money. I don't really care about money. What I do care about is experience and you know, I guess, you know, expanding my knowledge and expanding my expertise.

And I definitely think that whether it's been like short films or, you know, projects that my friends have done, whether I think that, you know, like it doesn't matter what I think of the quality, but it experiencing everything with every different person has shaped me more in the last two years than I think. Um, but I also would have said about my younger self that it was very blinkered vision.

I kind of used to, you know, I went through that like early twenties where I was like, I know everything and I know best and you clearly don't, you know jack shit about anything. And I think that kind of like makes you, you know, especially because I feel like when, you know, we're young, we kind of hope that everyone thinks we're amazing. And I still meet people like this who have got that young attitude where like I'm the best thing that, you know, is sliced bread.

And it's never true because I feel like the industry, especially that, you know, like you talk about having part-time jobs and, you know, and lots of different work. The days that I used to, you know, work on a casual basis, I loved because I, you know, got to do so many weird stuff.

And then, you know, the moment I took full-time work, I found the time I found, I made sure I found the time to do other things outside of work because it's very funny when I meet a lot of friends and you know, who have like spent their entire twenties just working full-time and never doing anything outside of their work life and just going, this is my job. And then I go home and I'm like, how do you do that?

Like there are so many things I want to do, whether it's like write a story, write, you know, you know, jot an idea down, watch it, you know, go to the cinema and watch a movie that I've been inspired by and you know, all these things. And people just go, no, I liked that movie or I didn't like that. It was like, how? Yeah, I don't think like that. Are you the same where you kind of like, you know, do lots of little things outside of your mundane-ness?

Yeah, I, yeah, I, I call it like the itch like this. If I, yeah, like I get this creative itch. If I haven't done anything in a while, I just, I just, I'm so unsettled. I need to try and do things. I started doing this weird, um, these weird lists in 2019 where in 2019, it was a very difficult year for me in lots of ways.

I kind of, um, it re yeah, a lot of, um, I came to the understanding that I was carrying a lot of grief from my own failed expectations of what I thought life would be like for me.

Um, and for various, different things from relationship breakdown to not, not getting certain roles that I had been really hoping that I would get and just kind of calcifying that, oh, this is a jobbing actor where the hustle doesn't end and it's, you know, and, and just feeling disempowered and, you know, kind of stuck in Sydney or whatever. I started doing these lists of, of it started over summer.

It was things that I would do over summer and it was anything from making a Christmas wreath to going to that, um, museum that I had never been to within Sydney and all of these different tasks. And I do it every, every summer and it's just a way of, of, for me to kind of really intentionally enjoy life where I am in Sydney right now. And, and, um, it's really good for like when friends are like, what do you want to do? I'm like, okay, let's look at my list and we can, it's been cool.

I've, you know, I'm in Sydney now I'm in Sydney for whatever reason. And, um, and you know, when you feel disempowered to kind of make steps in your life that you really want, it's just a really nice way to kind of step outside of the daily grind and just go and go to that beach that you've never been to and see that new site or, um, do something weird. Like I went adult roller skating. Oh, that's sick. I know. And like I've never done that, but I was like, why, why the hell not?

Like let's do something different today. And then, you know, it's, you know, it's just a nice way to try and keep myself excited and have things to look forward to. Yeah. Um, that I can control, I think. I find that very interesting as well, because you don't, I'm very similar, not, not personally about the lists, but I have like, cause I love that list idea though. I will steal that. Um, but I do like have that idea that, you know, you go, you have things that you want to do or want to try.

And I think one of the things that are particularly like, you know, for the last few years, um, particularly I used to kind of like, you know, value everything on my relationships and a lot of like, you know, caring for people. And I had this realization yesterday as well.

I was watching the Selena Gomez documentary on Apple, um, Apple Plus, and I had this realization which I don't think I'd had, I had had in Klings old, um, for a long time, especially with creativity and stuff, but I didn't realize until more recently that I think growing up, especially in high school, because I didn't know that many creative people, I thought having projects and having something creative meant people liked you and had this real sense to pull towards you.

But I didn't do as much for myself to kind of like benefit. And I, and it's funny, like being an adult now and sort of realizing that like, you know, there's a little bit of psychological elements to that. Um, but now I'm like, oh, that's right. You know, I don't have to, you know, no one, no one's disappointed or something.

Like, I mean, you know, people are disappointed if something doesn't happen, but if I want to go and do something, I can just also go and do it and, you know, enjoy that experience. And I think very much before it was like, no, everyone has to join me so that I can make an experience for people. And therefore they, you know, like that level of satisfaction and in that kind of way, but it's very kind of like, it was just a thing that I thought of last night.

I was like, this is very like odd, but it's so true because, you know, it's, it's a very kind of like weird, vulnerable state to be in, especially as a child, you think why, what attracts us to arts and what attracts us to doing things and having experiences and it's mostly people and sharing experiences. Like how often do you go and do something alone? Um, still quite often. I think I'm good at being alone. I love going to the theater alone. I love going to the cinema alone. Love that.

You know, it's that classic Julia Cameron, the artist's way, artist states, you know, it's it's um, being comfortable with your own thoughts and feeling. Yeah. And often I'll go with people, but sometimes if you can't find anyone to go with, I'm like, go by myself. I love that though. Yeah. And, um, and then sometimes it just gives you space to really think about let letting art affect you without any kind of lens.

Sometimes it's so, you know, sometimes my best friend, um, is, and it's kind of my partner in crime and she's some, we have very similar ways of how we kind of digest art. And sometimes I'm just like, Oh, I wish she was here so we could discuss this. Yeah. Um, but, um, yeah, sometimes it's so nice to just without any kind of expectation or needing to discuss it, you just let art affect you.

Yeah. Um, and so that's, I, yeah, I do like going to art galleries and things alone and, um, it's very, I'm sitting with it. Yeah. Yeah. It's very, it's very interesting. Are you one of those people who like gets very emotionally affected by it? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Um, absolutely. Cause like, yeah, for me, that is, that is really good art is stuff that emotionally affects me. Whether it's, it, it moves you, um, you know, to tears or makes you laugh or makes you think or whatever.

It's like, there is, there is an impact that, and for me, I'm a very feelings person. Um, so for me, that's an, and good art is something that you engage with and it shifts you. Yeah. Um, yeah, that's my favorite kind of, you know, art that I, or things that I see, which I just don't, I think, Oh, that's not aesthetically pleasing, but I don't feel anything is not going to be as impactful to me as something that really made me feel a visceral response.

Yeah. I'm, I think that's like, you know, if you go into the cinema and watching, watching a film that's, you know, like very interesting, but not feeling anything, then I'm worried. Yeah, totally. And some things can be, you know, intellectually fascinating, but yeah, if it doesn't affect you, it's not as powerful in my opinion.

I think, I think it's very interesting that you say that as well, because I feel like some of the bit, you know, like I'm, I'm the worst when it comes to like, um, cause I often cry during films or stuff like that. I'm, I'm, I get emotionally attached to everything. Um, but yeah, like I'm the same. I used to love going to the art gallery alone, especially like probably more pre pandemic.

I think that pandemic kind of made me stay at home a lot, but pre pandemic, I would go to the art gallery at least like once a month. Um, I would go to the cinema every two weeks. I would go and see a movie and I would often go to the theater when I could, like, I just loved all that stuff. I thought it really kind of opened me up. Same with like books and stuff.

I think, um, and you know, and music, I think a lot of people have just kind of like, you know, it's, it's very interesting when I always hear people just go, Oh, that was a good film. And I'm like, but what did you like? Like, tell me, tell me everything. I love discussing films and ideas and it's, they're the best kind of films is when you go, Oh my gosh. I'm like, what about that element and what about this?

And discussing, I do a lot of, um, a lot of work that I have found myself doing is, is play developments and, um, yeah, that's a, it's just a line of work that I've fallen into a lot. I think I might, I think I must have a, a dramaturgical brain that I think, I think people say, and then they think, Oh, Audrey might be good for this project.

So I've done a lot of play developments and, um, it's my favorite thing, you know, talking about a story and structure and how it affects all the characters and the whole arc and what does it say to the audience? What does it say about life and really discussing with other creatives and the writer and if there's a director in the room as well, that's just my favorite thing is discussing ideas and, um, it's yeah, it's so exciting. That's awesome. I love that.

Like, how did that fall into your lap? Good question. I, um, the first one I ever did was, um, I just volunteered to be a reader at a, um, it was at a part of a, um, play reading festival, um, as part of Mardi Gras a few years ago. And I volunteered to be a, so they were all celebrating new works by, um, LGBTQI identifying writers. And I decided to be a volunteer actor in it.

And, um, I, yeah, it was part of a couple of different works, but there was one work in particular, um, about, well, the play's shifted a lot about what it's about over the, I've worked on it with this, this one playwright for like three years now. Wow. We have, we have multiple different stages of development. He's really come back to it.

Um, and, um, yeah, so I, we did this show and, and afterwards, after we kind of did this one reading, he invited everyone else to, to, everyone that was involved in the reading to, to, um, get a drink at the Newtown hotel. And I was the only person that turned up. Wow. Which was so weird because I was just like, why would you not? Anyway. And, um, he was like, what do you think about the play? And I just was like, can I be honest with you? And he said, yes.

And I was like, it's, it's really misogynistic. Wow. And he was like, okay, wow, let's talk about that. Because he, obviously that was not his intention, but it was, it was kind of a story that he had written based off his own life, um, about him coming out as a bisexual man. And part of that was leaving a really toxic marriage to a woman.

And I was reading for the part of his ex-wife and, and, um, what he, you know, it came, basically it was misogynistic because that character was underdeveloped. That's why is she just didn't have much depth to her anyway. And so he really responded. We had a great chat that night over a couple of pints and, um, he's always kind of looped me back into the project whenever he's developed it. And it's really come a long way. And, um, yeah.

And then just, I think, you know, one, you get recommended for other bits of creative work. So I've done a couple with him, with that same company that often produce these developments and then through other people that I think they recommended me to. That's awesome. Yeah. It's really fun. I do love it. I mean, like, I love that you flagged the misogynistic angle. Well, he, I mean, part of it was him.

He was such a warm, generous, open person that was not, he was so brave, I think in being like, tell me what you think about my work. So it was, he was very receptive to that. Um, and, um, yeah, I could obviously tell that that was not his intention as well, but I was like, this, you, someone needs to, and also I was the only woman that was involved in the, in the initial project. So I was like, okay, someone needs to call this. And it needs to be me. And it needs to be me. Yeah, definitely.

I mean, like that's always the thing as well. Um, you know, I love that about, you know, like to play developments or just like developing and a concept in general is when you kind of like nitpick it apart. But it's great that you found a writer because I often feel like writers are very precious. They're very precious about how their content is created and the style.

And you know, it's really interesting when you're like so open and warm about your idea and just going, oh yeah, let's pick it apart. Like let's, let's dissect it. Yeah. You've got to be really brave. Yeah. Cause a lot of, I've met a lot of writers who just don't like anything changed. They've, they're very structured too. And you know, like I've been in that position as well where I'm like, oh, it's my baby. I don't want to like destroy it and have someone pick it apart.

But sometimes it needs to be like, this isn't, you know, there's elements that don't work or, you know, where's, where's it get lost in translation? Like, and I think that it's, it's kind of where you see the best plays, especially like, I don't know if you were, I remember watching like development plays and stuff very early on when like, you know, watching like their one-off performances and stuff and whether they were any good or not.

And sometimes I used to go and see those, especially they used to have them on the CMOS center when I was working there. And that was always very interesting because when you saw plays that really shouldn't have ever been made or the ones that were, you had potential, but they weren't cast well or they weren't thought out. Like there was something in the middle that I was like, this is missing about 50 ideas in it.

Like, do you, are you more now self, like are you more critical now when you go and see performances because of this play development skill that you've developed? I am very critical when I, for better or for worse, I'm very critical when I see. Um, work, but I, I'm, um, but I'm also, I think quite generous as well. Like I know what it is to, but there's, you know, there's so many moving parts to a production. It's, you can't put, you know, it's, it's unfair to say, Oh, that was terrible.

That whole play was terrible. You know, I think you can have moments of your own private thought of what you thought worked and what didn't work and various performances that you thought were just a little bit misjudged or, you know, um, so, and I, yeah, I know from being in the midst of bad plays myself, like it's, it's so much more than just like a single element. It's so how much it ties together. Um, yeah. Yeah. I love that you, you took a second to be like, Hmm.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like I, I, I do agree with that. I don't think it's just one like tiny element though. It's like everything is crucial to this one moment, but I've, I've seen, I've definitely seen like, especially knowing some people who started out and they're seeing their first work or seeing ideas that they've written.

And then over time when they've developed plays, like I know if you write, um, play rights and you know, watching them develop ideas versus when they start, you're like, you can see the element, the idea there, but you're just like, there's so many like factors that you need to slim down.

And it's also as well, the context in which you're critical, you know, like, yeah, I think, you know, often if you're going to see new Australian work, you know, firstly, we've it's Sydney's particularly ruthless, I think of not letting people fail. Um, I feel like we're very judgy, like very judgy, very quickly.

Cause it's so competitive here, you know, and there's a shortage of space and all this kind of thing, you know, I, you know, we've, it has, it's, there's such a fine line between going and supporting new work and supporting artists growth and development. And also, you know, being critical and being like, well, if you're inviting a paying audience, you can't beat this level of, you know, what it is. So it's just, it's just funny.

I think there's a context in which you arrive with a generosity of spirit and can be really positive about what some, what's been developed and what's been, and then other things you go and see. And you just think that's no, you know, for Bell Shakespeare, that was terrible. You know, like that's terrible, you know, whatever it is. I think it's also like, it's, it's, you always got to lay with good ideas and bad ideas.

I think it's like you, you, you're pros and you're cons because I feel like there's always good elements, especially with each, you know, I say this about any film that's ever made because as a creator of content as well, like, I think everything I've made is perfect. Like nine times out of 10 is terrible or it's missed hit the man. But I think, um, you know, it's when someone goes, that's great. And I'm like, I can see the flaws, but I'm glad you don't because I know what I'm, you know.

Yeah. And often as well, I find, you know, if we've closed people that are close to me and whose opinion I and judgment I really honor often, often if they give me their honest feedback about work that I'm in, it's just an affirmation for me because so often I'm like, you're right. And I felt the same way through that process. You know, we lacked this or we really struggled with this element or we didn't quite hit that point or whatever.

And so, so often I find it affirming that actually not even though we didn't execute it, the fact that I was able to identify that in some way, or I felt that there was something missing means that I do have, you know, there is a good critical brain that I have, you know, that I could identify that even if we didn't achieve it, you know, it's all part of learning.

I, I've never been on any experience where I haven't learned something, you know, and I feel like whether it's performing or anything or, you know, like writing and going, Oh, I actually repeated myself. Like I've already said that. And you know, that's why I think also asking people is like the best thing because it's like, you know, like people have different feedback and all the time, and then I've sent ideas out to people and they've had different various things of, Oh, I love that.

Oh, I didn't like that. You know, and like you ask about five people that I trust. And then sometimes I ask five random people, I'm like, Oh, you've never seen this work before. Let's see what you think and how, you know, they might be super close to me and they might also not be. And it's really interesting when some people are like, that's a great idea. And they barely know me and they're like, that's really solid.

And that's always, I think, like the way it's kind of goes back to that Hollywood idea where you show a random bunch of test audiences of your screening and they go, I like this. I don't like this because they're not like, it's that idea of like trial and error.

It's let's see what sticks and what doesn't, but I've never gone into a scenario where I guess I'm super reliant on, you know, particularly it, I guess, making this exorbitant amount of fame because I, you know, like back in the day, you know, I used to think exposure, everyone, you know, famous, you know, celebrity status, we'd go back to that.

And now I'm just like, as long as everyone's enjoying it and it's project that everyone thinks is worthwhile, that's probably where I think I feel more like affirmed and satisfied, especially with my career versus like, you know, I know some people who are never satisfied with anything they've ever done and I'm content with the past. But I look at my old high school HSA video, which it's online and it was this sort of like thing that I filmed on a handicap and I don't hate it.

I think it's, I think it's not great, but I think it's quite funny and it's quite sweet. And you know, like it's clearly an 18 year old me, like, you know, with braces and acting in it and you know, going, this is doable. And I, you know, like years later, I think of like, oh, these are the things I could do better about it, but I'm not going to redo it. I'm not going to think I need to redo this and make it better.

You know, like, I feel like that's the difference is when you see people to retry retread, like constantly old ideas. Do you, do you feel like, I mean, it's also like with play development, you know, because you talk about three years and stuff, you know, we spend every idea if we're writing a concept or we're creating something from scratch to probably five years over six years of our life invested in this idea. And then some of those ideas don't ever see the light of day.

Like how do you mentally prepare for that as well? Yeah. I mean, I, I'm yeah, I don't really do much writing myself. So I personally haven't had that, that experience of what if my idea never comes to light? Yeah. Like giving up on it on a project or an idea, like usually I'm not spearheading the project. I am a functionality for something else. And I will do my job and that's satisfying and that's nice. And ultimately the end product, whatever it is, is not my problem.

I suppose like, you know, it would be so lovely to see it get to a place where it's, you know, whatever the writer wants it to be. But yeah, it's funny you say, I find it really hard to watch back my old work. Really? Yeah. And I think I have to do it with a lot of compassion because, you know, you have to say to yourself, like I did as best as I could with the resources that I had at the time and every experience I hope will make me a better actor.

And so the next project I do, I will hopefully do better work than I did. But all the time I think about a show that I didn't think I wouldn't do it that way now, you know, and it doesn't mean that I hated or thought that it wasn't good at the time. It's just, it's just the more that you grow and learn and you just think, Oh, I would have made a different choice there and that's okay. You just have to try and look back with compassion, even though I'm not really good at doing that.

I have to tell myself. Oh yeah. And I, it's, God, that is true as well. Like there's a lot of, you know, you've got to be compassionate and self reflect. But I mean like, you know, whether I think also when I particularly have made stuff and I think I come, you know, like, especially when I direct and you know, I've directed stuff in the past, I've definitely thought, Oh, that direction wasn't strong or that could have been better or that, you know, like I've often thought that.

Um, but then like sometimes I'm like, Oh, that was great. You know, that was like fine. That, you know, that did its job. Um, and yeah, it's, I got to be compassionate, self critical, but it's so funny because, you know, I consider everything a slice of time as well. Like you living that slice of time, like I'm not, you know, I'm 30 now, I'm not 18 or 22 or anything like that. That was me back then.

And now as an adult, I'm like, Oh, you know, adult quotation marks, everything is like very, you know, theoretical at this point. Um, you know, it's, it's one of those things that I think, you know, when I reflect on previous projects that I, I can't, you know, be too critical of myself. Like, you know, it's not even compassion. It's just, I can't think of, I always think of it as a different version of me. That's the only way I can watch like a lot of things.

Um, but you know, I guess it's also kind of like a weird legacy. Like your own little personal legacy. Cause I, you know, like the back in the day, especially like if we were born like 50 years ago or, you know, something like that, the only way we could have ever been on film was to crack the industry and, and be there.

And now we've got phones, we've got like, you know, like mini DSLR cameras, you know, mic's, you know, clearly homeset podcast setups, you know, people can do almost anything now. And I think while that's great, there is a little bit of like, how good are people, you know, like understanding the fundamental basics of like getting ahead and, you know, and the competitiveness it goes back to that.

Like, you know, we talk about like self-worth and self-drive, like, you know, where do we see ourselves on the picking order? Like, you know, do you, do you see now, especially now, like, you know, you talk about like taking everything as like day by day and you know, like moment by moment in terms of your career and everything, where do you hope, I guess, for yourself in 10 years? Like what are you hoping and versus what is your reality expectation of that?

Yeah. I think my dream is to just be a full-time actor, you know, just to not have to, um, supplement my work with other things that I don't really want to do. Even though there's great, you know, I love the pub that I work at now at the moment and there's, you know, great life lessons and great people that you meet and great stories that you, you know, like nothing's wasted.

But I think I would just love to be able to go from job to job and do what I do and make, do what I want to do and make art kind of every day. That would be the dream, I think. And I don't necessarily want, um, to be rich and famous though financial security would be nice. And with, with, um, there are some positives to being more well known, like not having to be in that meat grinder of auditioning all the time and having a certain kind of veneration and respect within the industry is lovely.

Who doesn't want that? Um, yeah, I think I just, I just would love to be a full time actor really in whatever way that looks like. Cause I think, you know, moving from project to project, you learn different things about the time that whatever you're doing set and there's always research to be done. It's always so exciting. So yeah, that's what I'd love to do. I think that's the, that's the dream. Can I say that? I love that dream. That's a great dream. Thank you.

But it's a, it's a very simple dream as well. It's not a very like complicated and hard dream to achieve. Except, yeah, well, except, except not in competitiveness because like, you know, I, I do know friends who'd like, you know, are older than, you know, both of us and they talk about like, they're like, Oh, my career's over and stuff. I'm like, I think it was like something I read recently, which was like Morgan Freeman didn't actually become famous until he was 50.

And you know, what if you famous actors didn't actually get noticed until much later in life? And, you know, I like watch something with Ryan Reynolds, like when he was young and chubby, like he was very not like the, you know, and I think it took him so many films to get where he is today. You know, it's, it's one of those things that, you know, you're not going to always hit the mark the first few years, you know, you might hit it when you're 40, you might hit it when you're 50.

Like, I think it goes back to that pedestal where we sit in the hierarchy and where we see ourselves and, you know, and in terms of, you know, what makes us and, you know, what is the process of making us? Um, and I don't know, it's, it comes down to me as self gratification. Like what have I achieved in the last two years? What have I done?

And whether that's made me sort of eternally like my cup is full in terms of self, you know, um, like in the last two years, I feel like a lot more people know of my existence because I've done a podcast. Um, but before then I feel like people knew me through other means, like, and, and I kind of got to a point where I think it was like 2019 and one of my friends was like, a lot of people know you in the industry.

And I'm like, how I've hardly met anyone, but people do, they just know your name and then they talk about you and then you kind of get recommended for things. And you know, you just kind of go, oh yeah, they're a great person to work with or they're great personality or anything like that. So you kind of just get weirdly recommended in this industry, like do you find, you know, it goes back to your like project development and, you know, and play, play development.

It's, it must be very weird that you're getting, you know, a part of you, you just go, oh, but this isn't me like imposter syndrome, like, you know, that's not me. Yeah, totally. Um, yes. Oh yeah. All the time. I feel like that. Oh, I can't do that. I don't, I don't think so. Yeah. All the time.

I have feelings like where I just think I'm not good enough for that yet or something, you know, like I'm not, I haven't had enough professional development in order to maybe perform at that level or something. Or if I did get cast in a massive project, I don't know if I would be psychologically ready for kind of the pressure that would be expected of me, but you just, but like if it happened to you, of course would go for it. So yeah. Yeah. I don't know.

It's funny you talk about self self gratification. I think it's, I've really struggled with, um, you know, why, why we do this stuff because of course you love it and you have to love it to be able to sustain yourself doing this, but there also becomes an act of servitude as well that we have to kind of, um, uphold as well, you know, what are we serving the story?

Like I think, you know, it's, it's just a really fine line between I'm doing this because I love it and what do I want to get out of this project? And also how can I serve the project? How can I serve the audience? How can I, um, you know, remove the self from this project? I've really struggled with that concept actually. Um, as these go on, that's not a very developed thought, but I know I agree with it though. Like I like the way that thought was going. Um, no, I think that's true as well.

Like I've definitely also, I think, you know, abandoned projects and stuff and abandoned ideas that I've had because I didn't think I was ready to do them. Um, you know, whether I thought I ran into them too ambitious and then sort of went, Oh, no, you know, this has gone along. Now I say it's chugged along, but I don't think I've got the skills or the expertise to really pull this off.

And I think it needs more life experience, but I also, you know, like part of me just goes like it's with my photography as well. And, and, you know, like my dad, my dad and, um, uh, Emily's dad are both very not easy to please always people. They're very lovely, but, um, they're both like in terms of photography, very highly critical and they've both said, Oh, you do good photography. And I'm like, I always think, no, I don't. It's terrible. Like, it's just, you know, it's your average stuff.

Um, but it is interesting because like, I compare myself to others and that's where I sit or sit on that, you know, like constantly looking at other work and, you know, and everything. I think there's a real like sense of value because I've been terrible. Like one of the things particular, I've always been very bad at putting a price on me and, and really think of me as like, goes back to that product thing. Like how much am I actually worth? A lot of the time I say nothing.

So it's like easy free work. You take me as a labor, but it's, it's not true because I've gone into this point where I'm like, you know, I am worth something. I am worth time. I'm worth energy and I'm worth, and I'm worth like at some point money. And, you know, like, I feel like that as an adult is not a hard ask, but man, does it make people really not like you very quickly. They're like, Oh, you, you have a price now and you're not like, it's like, how dare you?

But, but it's, it's true because I feel like, um, people don't know what to do with the fact that, you know, like, you know, someone puts a price on, especially with friends. Like they're like, I'm not free labor as much anymore. Like I can't just always cater to freeness. Um, you know, I know we're close, but you know, I can't, you know, just empty my time willy-nilly because then I would do it for everyone.

We do you get to that point with your, you know, are you hoping to get that point with your acting like all the time or do you do still occasionally do free stuff? I do a lot of free stuff where I am right now. Um, and I guess I would be lovely to, to be, you know, just, just to be able to sustain being an actor, you have to get paid. And so that would obviously be like ideal.

And it depends on the project, of course, you know, and the distribution of the project, and if the producers are making money off this, then I should be making money off this, but if it's a very good friend of mine's passion project, um, I will, you know, I would do that for free and I would do that to help them out.

Or, you know, I have this, um, I kind of have this rule if it's a, um, unpaid work or independent theater production or what have you, I have this kind of a five, five kind of things that I say to myself, it's do I like the director? Do I like the role? Is it a good role for me? Yep. Do I like the other cast? Um, do I like the company and is it a great space or something? Yeah. Yeah. I think that's the correct five and it has to be four of those five things for me to deem it worth it to do it.

Really? Um, because it's not sustainable otherwise. Like you can't, you know, thrash yourself for a project that's not really worth it in the end, if you're not making money off it, but, um, yeah, it depends on the context of, of the work, I think. Yeah. What you decide to do for free. I think absolutely. And I think that you could also like with free projects, it's gotta be fun.

And I think it's interesting because like I, I've gotten to that point, especially with some of the projects that I've been doing recently, which, you know, it seems like an ache in the pain.

Um, but I've definitely like with some of my own, I've gotten to the point where I think because a lot of people were doing it, you know, favors for me, I got really probably kind of more irritated when time wasn't important, like you'd organize something and then people had to pull out or something like, and it was just, I was like, I, this burns my energy and burns my batteries, which I think is like when you, it's your own passion project and stuff, you've got to make it worthwhile

for yourself as well. Like it's really weird. Like, cause you know, I believe that yes, treat everyone because they're all doing your favors, but at the same time, no one miss anyone else around. And it's because then everyone's going to feel tired. Like it's going to be like, we've had to reschedule like 50 times.

Um, and I, and I feel like when I've done favors for friends as well, and I've helped them with their, you know, passion projects and short films and stuff, I always try and make sure that they know if I can't do something, I let them know. Or if something's come up and I'm going, I just can't do it anymore.

You know, give them notice, but I've, I've definitely, you know, I understand that frustration and pain because I'm like, why I've been there and I'm, you know, it's, it's really annoying when you've spent all this time trying to organize everything and then something, you know, one part of the cog just disappears, but you know, there's no perfect world, I think, especially when you're, you know, not paying anyone.

And I, like, I used to think this like mentality and I, and I do a lot now, which is if you're, you know, if you sign up for something and you agree to do something, you kind of agree to do it. You don't like, you know, if paid work comes up, you just, you know, try and rejig your life around where that paid work can sit in, but you don't like, unless you've given fine night notice, it's probably best you don't pull out.

It's funny because I, you know, like I, I thought of that, especially when I left, you know, you know, TAFE and tertiary education, but a lot of my friends don't think that they think that that's a very fine thing to kind of pull out, you know, when it's paid work.

And I don't know, I don't know if that's like the value I see on, especially understanding how hard it is to make something and the tireless efforts that actually is to write it, to produce it, to organize like five to 20 people in one location to get, you know, like if you're filming location permits, you know, all this stuff, um, to get it all organized and, you know, that's the, that's the hard part and then getting people to turn up is, is even harder. Um, there's no easy route.

And I think it's the same with plays and, you know, and stuff. And, you know, like I've seen, you know, people drop in and out of plays and, you know, I think the pandemic taught me a lot about that as well to really value. But I think it's gone, it's done the other thing for some people. I think it's like flipped them on their heads where they're only to consider like super, super well paid things as what they're worthwhile.

It's interesting because yeah, it's like a mental health thing or, you know, like, but what's your thoughts on that? Like that sort of mentality of like, you know, pulling out of projects, especially if, or if paid work comes along. I think you have to be really discerning early on about what you say yes to. Yeah. Just really thinking about it, you know, asking to see a script before you say yes to, you know, who, who's involved.

Um, what, what exactly will be the demands if, if I'm, you know, if I say yes to this project or what have you. Um, and then, yeah, I think, and yeah, if it's, if you think that something paid might come up, then making that expectation aware, I think if I was maybe, you know, doing an unpaid short film or something, um, and I would, you know, establishing that expectation that if I do get paid work in this time, I will most likely go and do that.

Yeah. Um, because, you know, I don't think anyone can really blame you. There's such a scarcity of actual paid work out there for actors. You'd be a fool to say no, I think. Yeah. Um, I don't think that's actually happened to me though. So I don't think I've ever had to choose between projects. I'm not that in demand.

Um, I did, I did find it funny though, like, I think it was more of a tape thing as well, I did, we did have actors drop in and out, like that was very much like, because when you're a student, like everything's swap and changeable. Cause I noticed that most actors don't want to work on student projects. They're like, you know, the last thing you really want to do.

Um, but everyone's got to start somewhere, especially like, um, and again, it's just that the expectation of what the project's going to be. If you're, if you're hoping to get a certain amount of self-fulfillment from this student project, you're probably going into it wrong. You've got to approach that project with a spirit of generosity to be like, yeah, you know, like the last student film that I worked on, um, they, um, there was a problem with the data wrangling.

And so we had something like seven minutes of footage left on the entire. Um, memory card. And so we got to do one take of everything. And it was just so intense. Um, and, but, you know, but I was just like, this project's not about me. Yeah, it doesn't matter. It's about the kids that are working on this, on this project. And so in a way I was, I, you expect something to go wrong. And when it does happen, you go, that's fine. I'm I'll do whatever you need me to do.

Yeah. And just funnily enough, though, the lead actor did pull out of that, of that show about a week before they started shooting, but they managed to recast. But I know you've got to have contingencies for that. Don't you? If you're going to do unpaid work, you just have to have backups. Yeah, and it's, and it's long.

Oh God. Yeah. Um, you know, it's, I've had, I love all my, um, you know, sound operators and recorders and stuff, like, um, love them to bits, but I've had like some pull out like a week before shoot or like a few days before shooting, you have to scrounge, you have to scrounge because you, you know, and I love, I've loved all the people, especially the crew that I've worked with, I've loved a lot of the actors, but I love, I've mostly loved a lot of the crew that I've worked with

because they're all like very genuine people. And yeah, it's like the more notice they give me when they can't do something, it's, it's the best because it's just like, Oh, okay, cool. You can't, you know, as frustrating as it is, I'm like, I'd rather reschedule to work with you or if you can't do these dates, let's, you know, I might have to get someone else. I'm very upfront about that. I'm like, if you can't do these days, I'm going to find someone else who can because it's not about you.

It's about just getting the product done. Yeah. Um, but some, you know, like some people just make it work. They're like, Oh, okay, cool. Then I'm going to make it work. You know, like once you give them that automatum, then it's like, this is the new date and you're going to make it work or not.

Like they, they, they stick to their gun and I admire people who do that because you know, you can't just, I guess, like keep jumping dates until everyone's happy because no one's ever going to be a hundred percent happy. Um, but I do, I do think that my first ever, you know, like my first ever, you know, the HSC film was a prime example. My friend who was being camera operator, we didn't have sound. So we had the sound off the camcorder. It was like so basic.

Um, you know, and he dropped out, um, because at the time he was dating the lead actress. Um, and then they broke up at, so it was kind of like, you know, probably we filmed over the course of like four weeks and he dropped out after two days of filming and then I had to film it with my brother and my dad and to feel like and to fill in and I, and I then asked another friend to help me film. So I was kind of like left really in the lurch and I was like, and the product look like it's fine.

I didn't just go great. I think of the HSC of drama, but, um, but I was proud of that. I did it. Um, and it was very interesting because it was kind of one of those conversations that I, I, he, you know, it was one of those things that I remember looking back at now is like, so silly that, you know, that all happened and we kind of like, he didn't turn up because of a breakup and stuff.

But I also kind of get it, but it was so like long ago that I'm like, Oh, those are the things that kind of kind of fall apart so simply that you suddenly like you're wrangling your brother and your dad kind of helped you finish a project. And my brother is not a tech person. He's just like, he doubled for me in a scene because I couldn't drive at the time as well. So we parked the car in my outfit. Um, you know, and, and those are the things that you make work.

And like, you know, my, my partner, um, Emily is amazing. She, she's worked in like film. So she, you know, if I need anything, she is happy to just kind of be like, yeah, sure. I'll, I'll help out, you know? Um, and that's when, you know, you, all you, I've got friends who are like, yeah, I'll just fill in a, you know, whatever you need, who don't work in those roles, who are just happy to help. That's when you have a good network of people who just help you get things done rather than stress.

Honestly, I think every, every unpaid thing I've ever done at the 11th hour, something goes wrong. Yeah. It's always, you know, whether it's a costume and malfunction or this person's pulled out or, or what have you, or someone's unwell or where you're severely under rehearsed for whatever reason, there's just, or it's my own psyche that decides you're not an actor. You can't do this. What are you talking? Oh my gosh. Well, you know, you're not ready.

Like there's always something that goes wrong. The last, the last show that I did the other lead actor in it, it was a two handed between me and another actor. And yeah, at the 11th hour, the other actor dropped out and, um, oh my goodness. We, we, and so we did a recast at the 11th hour and we had one two hour rehearsal. I had one two hour rehearsal with this new actor before we opened the show to a paying audience.

So it's sometimes it's just a miracle and it's just, you just, oh, you just absolutely rally, don't you? Yeah. Cause you just think, you know, you just think you have to, you have to get this done. You have to, there's too much at stake for us to, I know. And so you just adrenaline, adrenaline blazing. You just go for it. Your brain just starts to melt and like, you're like, I can't function.

Yeah. Um, I do want to talk to you about mental health as well, because I feel like that's something that both you and I experienced with doing ice.

Um, I particularly like, you know, it goes back to that sort of conversation of, you know, like feeling like the arts was how I made friends and how I connected with people, I feel like as an adult, I've learned a lot about that, but, um, yeah, it was very interesting because my childhood, I sort of felt like the art was my escapism because I was a very anxious and probably, you know, like I was diagnosed with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder when I was young.

Um, a lot of kids bullied me because obviously they didn't know what hyperactivity and like, you know, and what neurodiverse actually meant, um, neurotypical brains. So I think that was a lot of a struggle until, you know, like even now I'm doing, you know, constantly doing research. So being interested in drama and stuff, I was considered the uncool kid in drama because I was so enthusiastic about it. I loved it. And I thought this is the bee's knees.

I'll get to write and play things and I get to do things. And I think everyone thought of as a bludge class. Like it was just like, Oh, this is the easy class. You know, whatever the fuck I can do, whatever. So being now so much invested in it, I do, I I'm such a tenfold.

I'm like, Oh, if I can do anything, I will, you know, like that creative itch you talked about, that's how I get things done and I love it and I, you know, do all those things, but it does burn me like it's the edit, you know, like constantly my amount of stress is, is up here and my constant anxiety is like simmering around here or here, you know, like it's fluctuates. It's like a boiling kettle. Are you the same? Um, yeah, I, um, Feel like I'm in a can of worms.

Oh, I, yeah, I. I am not a super anxious person, which is, um, my miracle to me. I don't know. I mean, I mean, I do of course get nervous at things and, um, you know, in a lot of after, I think I've, I've a period of time, if I go through a lot of particularly difficult auditions and a lot of rejection and a lot of disappointment, I do notice that I close off a bit and I'm not as readily accepted as I am, but I do notice that I'm not as readily, I find acting's harder.

I, I, I'm not as readily accessible to my emotions because I have subconsciously kind of burnt off my extremities of a feeling as a self protective mechanism. And so sometimes, sometimes I, I particularly struggle with returning to vulnerability as an artist in a safe way, because it's a, it's a learned behavior to close out to be met with rejection. Um, so often I would go to auditions and feel like nothing. And so not, not nervous, not excited, but just nothing.

And it was this very weird thing of like, oh, but then I wasn't doing particularly good work in a room either because I wasn't being vulnerable. I wasn't open to, um, you know, in that creative flow where you have to be vulnerable and you have to kind of enter another world. And, um, I, I kind of shut myself off a little bit. I think my mental health is struggles. Yeah. After the, after a, um, a disappointment and it took a while for me.

I had this kind of epiphany earlier this year that, you know, they say, um, you know, you need time to rest. Yeah. Time to take a step away from it. But so often I was like, you know what? I, I'm not, I don't feel tired. I feel defeated and that's different. Um, cause I'm like, I'm not, I don't feel like I need rest. I'm, I'm hungry for work. I just want to work. I just want to have to express myself creatively. Like I feel like I've got so much to give, but I'm not being given a paradigm.

I've not been given a paradigm in which this can happen. And I've been told no and no, and whether I'm bombing auditions or, you know, something about the audition room wasn't set up in a way for me to do my best work or for whatever reason you don't get a project or whether it's from your own fault, or various other contingencies, it's sometimes what I'm left feeling is defeated, not tired. And so then it's like, how do I deal with that?

Because when you're tired, you rest, but when you defeat it, you need a win. Yeah. But sometimes that's really hard to orchestrate for yourself because you're like, how can I, you know, how can I have a win right now? When it seems like you're not going to win, you're not going to win. It seems like you're at the mercy of other people letting you do what you want creatively. So it's just, I haven't really figured that one out.

But that was a really important distinction that I learnt this year, earlier this year, after a particularly difficult period of, yeah, being told no a lot. And yeah. Yeah. Was that just audition based, like a lot of rejection from no, or was it just life based as well? And I was also knowing that I wasn't doing my best work. I think that's also a part of it is when you're like, I could have done better.

Yeah. Or I wasn't, I think when you know that you've ruined an opportunity at your own hand, that's the worst, isn't it? Because you just think, oh, I messed that up. And I think it's a, you know, whether it's because of not having enough time to prepare or being anxious in the room or not relaxed or just not for whatever reason, not hitting it that day. I think that's the most frustrating thing is when you can't, there's not a catalyst to why you didn't do your best work.

I think that's what I really struggle with when you leave and you think, oh, what can I do better? At least I can learn from that is sometimes I'll leave the room and be like, there was this one particular audition where I really suffered afterwards, where I just did a terrible audition and there was no rhyme or reason to, I just left. And so in that way, I wasn't able to be like, what did I do well and what can I work on better next time is a kind of growth mechanism.

It was just like, I don't know why I bombed that and that's so hard. And I think that's really hard to make peace with when there's no clarity around a situation. And you feel out of practice and because that's kind of the thing that happened this year is I kind of for the last two years, it's all been self-tapes, right? Because of COVID and all of this kind of thing, which is in one way has been really hard, but in another way amazing.

And so it was earlier this year, I started going back into rehearsal, auditioning in person, felt very out of practice, very unrelaxed. And yeah, that's kind of when I kind of suffered through a bit of a period of time and then realized, ah, it's not rest that I need. It's a win. Yeah. I agree with that.

I think that was sort of very interesting thought process because yeah, when you get that win and you go, oh yeah, I've done it or okay, I've got this, it's always much more satisfying and everything. And I think, yeah, I've definitely had situations where I've had a lot of rejection or in different ways, not necessarily in auditions, but definitely in job opportunities or opportunities in general.

Or they haven't lined up or something, the worst ones were starting out when just people give you an idea of something and then it never happened, you'd never hear of it again. And it was like, oh, okay. So there was a lot of those and I hated ambiguity. I hated that not knowing. But I remember I went for a job not long ago and I was in the meeting and it was very by the books. It was very bureaucratical.

I won't say where it was due to the respect that I have for the place, but I remember sitting there and just going, this is not like, this would be, I bombed this interview. And I knew from basically like 10 minutes of sitting in, I was like, I bombed this. And it wasn't anything I did. It was nothing about what I did. It just wasn't, there wasn't a vibe. There was nothing in there that I did wrong. There just wasn't, I wasn't what they were looking for.

I knew from the get go and I just felt like I was kept in that room for like an extra 40 minutes trying to answer their questions and they were just going through the motions. Eganizing. And I just was like, this is wonderful. Like, cool. You know, and I've definitely, you know, I think it's also, I hate interviews. I hate like job interviews and opportunities like that. And I just, I don't get anxious.

I just hate, you know, by the books sort of asking questions because I never feel like it's genuine. I never, it's like, you know, it feels very basically they're trying to catch you out of what you don't know. And I feel like, you know, there was also an opportunity that I recently had where I could have done a, you know, and I unfortunately got COVID during it. Like it was the worst week to get COVID because it was meant to be really busy and good week.

And then I got really sick and it was, I was, one of my friends had reached out and I hope that I get to have another opportunity because I felt really bad, but I was meant to be doing this book talk as a presenter and asking this writer about, you know, her journey and her experiences writing the book and the reason that she read the book. And it's, you know, if you want to go and buy it, it's in book shops. I hopefully get to interview her one day.

I have said to her that I love her on, but I remember particularly with my friend, I messaged her about three days out and said, I've got COVID and she had to speed read the book because she had no one else to replace me with. And like, she put me forward and I felt so bad because she fought for me to be in that I was like, Oh no, like I can't do this. So I feel like the worst person that week.

And I was like, Sydney, and I just was like, I, you know, really want to make it up to her for that experience because it was like, there was nothing I could have done. But I remember she asked me for notes and because my, I was so sick and I had, you know, I was getting progressively worse. I actually hadn't written that many notes because I was going to write them like a couple of nights before, but my brain couldn't come out with any.

So I actually sent her like half an hour before she went on. I sent all my notes. I was like, this is not the right time to send notes. So she did this like interview and apparently it went really well, but I was just like, I felt so bad because I was like, this isn't, you know, you've vouched for me to be there and it's, yeah, it's just, everything sort of felt like it fell apart that week. It was the worst time to get, you know, like sick, but I mean, like when's the right time to get sick.

I know, it's never a convenient time to get sick. But you know, like those are the experiences that I feel like, you know, really define everything that you do and especially the struggle, you know, and that's sort of like, yeah, it goes back to self criticism and self reflection. Cause I mean like, you know, like it goes to, you know, knowing, you know, there's no, you know, you know, you've failed, you know, from the get go, you've failed. You have to move on though. It's such a weird feeling.

You just have to let that go. Yeah. Do you, yeah. Yeah. Are you good at that? No, I'm not particularly good at that. I don't think, especially I have very high standards for myself as well. And have you always had high standards though? Yes. I think so. I get it from my mother. I love those genetic to like, this is from mum. My mother also has a very high standard. I have very high standards and I, you know, struggle with perfectionism and all of that lovely quality.

But yeah, I think, cause I'm still in the thick of it. I'm still working through it. I think I'm still working through how to audition well and how to, you know, learning about what I can do in the interim in between auditions and jobs about how I can best support myself to be ready for, you know, and practicing and, you know, being ready yet to audition again or whatever it is. Cause you taking a break at the moment, do you think? Taking a break.

Yeah, from a regular auditioning and destroying yourself. I mean, I, so I, the last, I did a show, the last theatre show I did was over the long weekend in October and that was really hard. I felt very drained from that. I mean, it was a great experience and I learned a lot actually.

And I was very inspired by the people that I did it with because they were just so unapologetically artists and they didn't subscribe to this kind of definitive quality of work that they thought that they needed to be. That makes sense. Like they made their own art, believed in it and didn't care if other people thought it was good or not. They thought it was good and that's awesome.

And that was very inspiring because I'm much more self-conscious about what other people think good acting is, what I think good acting is, what's acceptable in the Australian industry and stuff. But I was very drained by that experience because, you know, as we had a recast of the 11th hour, it was very stressful getting it done and it was independent theatre. So it's always a bit draining, I think, when you're having to work at the same time and cancel with them.

So I kind of thought for the rest of the year, my own hustle, I'm going to kind of step back on that. But, you know, if my agents get me auditions and I want to do them, I'll still do them. And I have an audition this Saturday actually, but generally my own kind of hustling work that I do, whether that's building relationships or seeking out my own auditions or opportunities, I was like, okay, I need a bit of a rest from that.

So I guess I have taken a little bit of a back foot and maybe after Christmas we can see how, you know, back to it. But also I'm planning to go travelling next year. For a long period? Probably three months or so. That would be nice. Yeah, I didn't, you know, I had travel plans in 2020 so that didn't get to happen. So also I've taken a bit of a step back so I can get other paid work so that I can save to go travelling. So that's just a practicality.

But yeah, so I guess I've stepped back a little bit, but just open to things at the moment. It's just more like a bit phlegmatic and kind of whatever comes up, I'll do it. But yeah. I like that you also say that you're a bit of a perfectionist because, you know, like not that that's a great trait to always have. But I think it's something that I relate to as well because it's very like, you know, there's a lot of me that goes, oh, that's not perfect.

And I feel like there's a grain in everyone's truth. But, you know, there is something about like, I guess, self, you know, like being apologetic as artists as well. You know, and the fact that I got to act like after eight years of not doing it against some of my friends and I loved it. And, you know, like I spoke to one of my friends after and he was like, oh, I didn't think you make those choices. But, you know, like they weren't bad choices.

They just wouldn't have been choices that I would have made. But and I thought that was really kind of interesting feedback because he was like, no, you weren't bad. And, you know, like you weren't like, you know, super rusty or anything like that, because it's one of those things as well when you rehearse and rehearse and rehearse and, you know, you get into the groove of everything. It just felt like, you know, reigniting that old muscle of something that I hadn't done in so long.

But it is interesting because, yeah, I used to be so self-conscious, especially like leaving drama school and stuff. You know, I got very self-conscious about my performances and stuff like that because I kept comparing myself to others and going, oh, you know, because for some reason I went to the most competitive environment where everyone wanted to tell each other that they weren't good enough. And, you know, like it was very competitive like that.

And I think that's not what art and being actors are. You're supporting each other and being like, I can do this and you can do this. And, you know, like, let's build each other's strengths up. So it is nice hearing that people are unapologetic and they just like what they've done and they're proud of what they've done. Because I've met people who never, you know, like disassociate from projects and just go, I never want to have my name.

You know, associate, even if it's like not a bad project, they just get funny about like little things that are like, oh, that was my worst performance ever. So I don't want anyone to ever see the lighter down. Like it's not that bad. Yeah. It's so interesting. And I do think that that's a trait, you know, that I've gotten to now where I just reflect and go, you know, these are in the past. So, you know, people can watch them. I don't care.

Are you, you know, are you now good at letting go completely of past projects and just letting people see them, even though like? I guess so. Yeah. Like the, especially the, the film that I've done. Yeah. There's a couple of things that I'm like, no, no one can see that. But generally I'm like, yeah, you can, you can. I mean, I'm not good at ever advertising my work ever. Yeah. You did, you did say that. You're like, you're like, oh, I'm a secret. Yeah. I just, I just find, I don't know.

I find, I think it's this, it's the fear within me that I'm not actually good enough. And that somehow, um, by not, by, I mean, usually what happens is I'm really reluctant to tell people about work that I do until right at the end. And then I'm like, everyone come and see it. Cause I'm so nervous that maybe it's not going to be good, even though it's so much more than just my performance, you know, other people that have put so much hard work into

a show. It's so arrogant to just like, oh, base it off my own particular performance in work. But yeah, usually like in the last week, I'll be like, yeah, no, everyone come and see it. If I, if I'm proud of it, which usually I am, I am when it all starts to come together. But, um, yeah, past film work that I'm done, I guess if people really want to seek it out, and watch them themselves, they can, but I've never been a good person to like post it and be

like, everyone watch this. Yeah. Um, yeah, I don't know. I find it. Icky for some reason. What about, what about, what about this? What are you going to be like very good at providing? Oh God, I have no, probably not mainly because I just think what, you know, I, I just don't know if people want to listen to my input. Isn't that interesting? You know, I used to be the same as that when I started, especially like I sit down conversation with my mother. I love it a bit. Um, and she was like,

you know, as long as you don't talk about you for too long. Like that's such a particular like typical mother thing to say. It's like, Oh, no one wants to hear about your, you know, like your life. It's, and I found that really interesting. And like, it's, there is an element, you know, I don't think everyone's interested in everyone's lives. You know, it's impossible. Like, you know, but I, I do think that we surprise people with how many people are

actually genuinely interested in what we say and what we do. And, you know, and you know, cause insight is, you know, everything. And I think that's why I've always been, you know, like I always promote things regardless, you know, I'm always like, you know, here you go, you know, take my two cents. Um, but you know, I feel like, yeah, half the time people just, I, I feel are afraid. They're very in fear of, um, their own thoughts.

Yeah. I don't know. I just don't think I have anything really profound to say, um, or particularly original, but if anyone listens to this, I'm very flattered. You're like, yeah, I think you've had a lot of original things to say. Well, thank you. Um, but it's not, it's just, I'm just enjoying talking about this, you know, it's a conversation that we've had rather than I feel like an interview or whatever. So it's, you know, like we're just discussing ideas, which is, it's really nice.

It's always a concept. Everything is a concept or a hypothetical. I say everything's theoretical until it's actually proven. Um, but no, I mean, like I, before we sort of like wrap up, I do want to, you know, because I guess with social media and stuff, you, you have a private Instagram. So everything's pretty much like low key on that and your socials. Yes. You're just like, how do you, how do you promote yourself?

I don't, um, I don't know. I feel very embarrassed about my social media presence. I don't know why I, um, yeah, I, I'm not, I don't know. I don't know. That's, it's a very interesting thing to think about, I guess, because I just, I don't know why. Um, I'm not going to post. Sing it into a tune. You don't want that. Um, yeah, I don't know why I'm, my, I'm private in the way that I am, especially on, on social media. I'm not sure.

I mean, that's totally fine. I think it's like, it's very unusual when people are so public. More so and, and, and stuff. I think it also because, you know, we are millennials. Yeah. Yeah. I know. Um, also on a practical level, I think like, it's funny, like all the time I get weird people or just people that I think are robots or just absolutely no connection. When I add me on Instagram and then I think, oh, no, I like being private because I don't want

these people to, I get a lot of weird bots. Yeah. I get a lot of weird bots. Um, you know, a lot of them are duplicate sites. A lot of my friends have gotten weird, like fan sites made of them that are made by bots. And then, you know, it's just a weird, like, you know how they copy and paste and then just make it a weird sex site, like Instagram account. And you're like, why? Um, I'm like, yeah, just made some sweet,

sweet cash on the side. Um, if you owned it, but it's, it's one of those things that I, I do think that, yeah, like it's the only downside. And I only recently have a private Instagram. Like I have a specifically one that's private, um, because there's certain things that I don't

want everyone to see, like, and, and I don't think is always necessary for everyone to see. Um, and it's very interesting because I didn't think of that for years and it's only been probably in the last year that I'm like, Hmm, yeah, maybe I am a little bit more, but I also like with Facebook, I never post anything really personal. I just talk about projects and that's it. I think, I know I'm the same. And so then I think in that vein, why do I have a private account? If I'm

only posting that projects that I want people to come and say, yeah, so I don't know. It's, it's a weird, it's a weird thing. Um, you know, what I miss though is the days before internet when, you know, the only way you promote yourself is if you had them on like sign posts and you had your, I don't know if I've ever been practicing and having projects in a time before the internet, really. Did you, um, cause I remember like when I worked at the symbols and someone came in with

flyers and I missed I've done a few firing jobs in my time. I did. I once promoted, I was once paid to promote a show for Perth fringe festival called sex with animals. Yeah. It was like a comedy show. And obviously I think it was, you know, they were trying to provoke people into coming to see the show, but it was so much hostility when I was chatting out lies. And I just thought, oh, never again. I wonder why, I wonder why it was so much someone like some old person just looked at them

and, oh no, send the cops to the theater. Um, what was your, I've got a final question though. I want to ask you, what is your, what was your first job? Um, you know, independent job, like when you left school, cause I'm really intrigued. My, as in my first acting job or my first pay job, your first pay job ever left when I left high school. Um, I think it was, um, Oh, what was it? Just trying to think of a timeline here. Um, I worked well, the year out of school,

I worked in a pub, a terrible, terrible, horrible. Um, yeah, I was like sexually harassed every day. Oh Jesus. Yeah. And, um, I also worked in a gelato shop. Were you sexually harassed there? No. Thank Christ. No, I quite like, it was with a whole bunch of Polish people. They are Polish family owned it and it was really fun and amazing. No, I was paid $11, 20 an hour, which is whenever I would tell people, they would say, that's not even a packet of cigarettes. Um, I worked at a hair

salon briefly, like making appointments and, um, and stuff. Um, what else did I do? Oh, I don't know. That was all in my gap year. That's a pretty extreme, strenuous gap year. I had lots of just weird odd jobs in, in my, um, gap year. Yeah. Um, and my first ever paid acting job was on Home and Away. And what did you play? I played, I played, uh, Dean's secret half sister. I know you can't make it up. Can you? So the character of

Dean, I don't even, I don't remember his last name. Now I was his secret half sister that, um, his dad was hiding from him. And anyway, it was all very dramatic. And how long were you in it for? Two episodes and I stayed secret. I was the point of tension in the, so I was more of a function between the character of Dean and the guy that played, um, his dad. I was kind of this point of tension. Oh, I love that. It was really fun and it was so exciting. It was like a first job.

Um, like Home and Away was such a fam, you know, they, cause they make, I mean, they now make four episodes a week, but when I was on it, there was, they were making five episodes a week. Wow. So they, all the crew knew each other and it was really fast and relaxed and it was all, um, everyone knew each other. It was like a family. So everyone was like, Hey, hey. And, um, I got a rehearsal, which was amazing. Yeah. Cause I was about to say like that's, yeah, it's their

time. Yeah. So I was really eased into it and I got to meet everyone beforehand. And you know, for such a quick kind of fast turnaround show, they still valued my input. We still got to share ideas even on, on set while the camera was rolling. And I was like, Oh, I'm so excited. Set while the camera was rolling. So it was really fun. It was really cool. Well, that's awesome. And just miles away from the gelato shop.

That was my, I had, I had jobs during high school, but that was, I think I got that job this summer. Yeah. After I graduated school. Is there anywhere online that exists now? Those two episodes. Oh yeah. Absolutely. I'm going to do some stalking. Oh no. I looked like Elle Woods. I loved it. It was so from Legally Blonde. It was so fun. I know they dressed me in like this, this kind of like rich girl. Oh, I love that.

Like pink get up and I loved it. Yeah. It was really fun. Oh my God. It's so cool. It was cool. It was cool. One day you'll return. One day. Yeah. I'll come back as Kayla. Yeah. Just like, Kayla, I'll be like, I'm back. No longer a secret half sister anymore. I'm now the full half sister. Not so secret. Not so secret. Oh my God. But that's awesome. Thank you so much for joining me. I've actually really enjoyed this. Oh, I'm very glad. Bit weird, but so lovely to be here.

Bit weird? Just to be, you know, to have this discussion. Yeah. To be interviewed. Yeah. And to have, just try and forget that the microphone's right there. Oh yeah. Isn't it? Yeah. It's like, what's this? What is this microphone? I know. Just, just pretend it doesn't exist. That's what I say to everyone. So where can people find you? Because obviously, where can they stalk you? Oh God. If your Instagram is not obviously a bot, then you can find me on my Instagram. I might let you

follow me. Yeah. And yeah, it's just my name on Instagram. Otherwise that's, that's it really. I don't know. I don't know. I'm such a bad actor, aren't I? No. Bad millennial. Bad millennial. Yes. Bad actor. No. Oh my God. Maybe I'll consider making my Instagram. Just, just have a thing. Have a mull of the next few months. I will. I will all have a mull. Thank you so much for joining me. Thank you. Thanks for having me. And if you want to go and check out more episodes of Things We Do,

you can check them out on Apple and Spotify. I'll be speaking with another guest next week and I'll speak to you all later. Goodbye.