The Things We Do... - Interview with Alice Miles

This is the Things We Do podcast, a podcast about film, life, television, culture, mental health and all of that fun jazzy stuff. Today I've got my special guest and friend all the way in Melbourne, Alice Miles. Hello. Hello. How are you today? I'm great. How are you? Good. I'm well. I'm feeling very busy and disorientated. That's always the way to be, I think. Just a little bit of chaos as a treat. I think I'm going to ask you a very hard question off the bat. Oh, please.

And I think it's going to take you by surprise. I'm going to get you to tell everyone on this sweet, sweet internet who you are and what you do. Okay. I realised on the way over here that this would be the one question that I knew you would ask me and that I should think of an answer and I still didn't. But yeah, so my name is Alice. I am a screenwriter. I also occasionally am a script supervisor and a production runner. And yeah, those are like my main three things.

Yeah. I mean, which came first out of all of it? Which was the first thing? Screenwriting for sure. It's always been like my end goal, like my dream job, basically. And then script supervising was a bit of a fluke. Oh really? A very, very happy fluke because I love it. Oh, that's nice. Yeah. So it's like one of those things that like kind of just randomly happened and then I didn't know what it was when I signed up for it and then I fell in love with it. So yeah.

Yeah, because you script-survised Reminent? I did, yes. How did you get that role? How did that kind of happen? Yeah, see that it was like a massive fluke. So like, I think it was like, it was a Facebook group or like Mandy or something, but they initially were asking for unpaid production runners. And I kind of stuck my hand up for that. And then had like a Zoom interview with them.

And then in that Zoom interview, I mentioned like I'd done script coverage at uni and that I would be happy to do like some script coverage for them because I just wanted to read the script as well. So, you know, yeah, so I got that, did the script coverage and then they read it and I guess they liked it because they were like, would you like to be script supervisor? And I was like, yes, before I even knew what it was. I was like, it has to have script in it. So yeah, it must be a valid job.

Yeah. But now that I've done it and like I know more about it, like I actually think it's less to do with script and screenwriting and more to do with editing. Yeah, it's a very edit-heading job. So if anyone doesn't actually know what script supervisors are, their continuity and manage a lot of like script notes. So yeah, it's a laborious job because, but it's also a great job because it means that you are something that I love, which is an editor's best friend.

And if you get something wrong, the editor either loves you or hates you. It's a very like fine work. Yeah, yeah. I definitely felt like, because it was my first time doing it, I felt a lot of pressure to like make the editor's job easier. But I did kind of strike out because the editors were like the director and the DOP and the producer who were all on set every day. So it was like, you know, going to them and like showing them my notes as I was going.

So it's like, you know, I wasn't fucking up too badly. Oh, that's great. Hopefully. I mean, like with this set as well, like, you know, it was such a, like it felt like I've, I don't know, maybe it was just my interpretation as well. But from an outward perspective, it was a very like female orientated set. Like there was just a lot of main characters or like background people who were women on it. Yeah, yeah. I know like over half of the cast and crew were women. So that was very cool.

Yeah, actually, what was I think the coolest thing for me actually in the pre-production stage, because I did do like quite a bit of coverage for them, but there is one of the characters in the film is queer. And so I got to give notes specifically on that. And then that changed like some how the like character acted in the film. And that was really cool. It was such a little thing, but I'm like, I had a little input in that.

That must be really fun, especially as like someone who was queer to be like, this is how you portray this. This is how you don't portray this. Yeah. Yeah, it was just like, like really minor things as well. Just like, you know, little touches. Also, like very specific because it was like small country town girl who like was queer and went to the city and then came back home. And I'm like, that's me. I did that. Oh my god.

Did you, did you feel like this, this story was just speaking to you at this point? Well, I hope not. It is a horror story. So let's hope the things that happened in that movie don't end up happening in my small town. I hope that would be nice. I mean, like the funniest thing also is like a lot of queer narratives have that, you know, level of horror. I always feel like, you know, it's either a very romantic love story or a horror story.

There's no like a science fiction or like a Western queer story as much. Do you find that the case? Yeah, which is a tragedy. I'm a big genre writer and all my other stuff I write is like very genre heavy and very queer heavy. So I love that. That's like where I like to operate. Like what's your favourite, like when it came to writing as well, what's your favourite genre to kind of like steer into? Oh gosh. I think horror probably first, but then like sci-fi is a second.

But also I think all of my stuff is like primarily coming of age as well. So like that's kind of the three things that I write about like in that area typically. I love that. You've suddenly become one of my favourite people by all those three genres. Oh my gosh. Because I'm a massive nerd. Same, yeah. Big old nerd.

But do you ever find, especially like when, you know, identifying as queer and you watch people who are very straight trying to write queer characters and you can kind of just be like, huh, you clearly don't know. Like they always tell it from a very hetero, normal point of view. Yeah, I don't think Remnant had that problem specifically because like I think the character in that movie, like Kate, she's queer but her story is mostly about her friendship with Grace.

So it was like very female friendship oriented rather than like romantic, sexual kind of oriented. But like I do find in other stuff, like yeah, I've noticed, you know, you can just tell when it's like a queer writer who's writing it, it's just got like a certain flair to it. And you're like, yeah, like they get it. Yeah, they know what's up. They know how to deliver. And I think like the same can be said for like all, you know, content that is made by the voices of like the characters.

Like when it comes from like personal experience, you can just tell like it just yeah, it has that thing about it. Yeah. I think it's also like, you know, when I watch like queerbaiting shows or you know, if anyone knows me and how much of a massive fan of Doctor Who I am. Ha, Doc You, yes. But it's always really funny when like that show tries to queerbait and you can always tell when it's written by very straight people and I'm like, you don't know quite what to do with these characters.

And you know, there's a lot of controversy over like same sex kisses scenes in that show as well. Like it can't, it's because it's a children's show and we can't inflict children on anything other than heteronormative like facets. But I do think also like, you know, with shows like that and especially with like, you know, shows going forward, there is a massive problem, I guess, with how that functions and how like we sort of see it going forward as you know, like properties and stuff.

Is there any shows that you loved and then you're like, this hasn't like aged well because I guess it's not as true to what it should be? I've definitely fallen victim to like queerbaiting. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. It's hard though. I think the stuff that like has queerbaited me is stuff now that I retroactively look back on it and like, why did I ever think that they would give me queer content?

Like I was, I was a massive Marvel fan as a teen and I was like so certain that they were going to give us like canon queer content. And I'm looking back and I'm like, they were never going to do that. Like, I just, um. I mean, Miss Marvel, let's be real, like she's close. She's, she's about as close as it's going to get. Literally, like I saw every time there's a new like movie or show, they're like, this is the first time we've had this queer moment in it.

And it's like, like you're barely passing. Like, yeah, they just saying I'm queer is not enough for me to be like, they're queer. Exactly. They're definitely queer. Yeah. There's like a difference between just like saying your character is queer and like actually having your character live like a queer experience and like depicting that accurately, you know?

But I mean, like I was, I was the same as like, I think particularly with my sexuality and everything, when I did see characters that I related to, particularly like guys who were kind of like more feminine and then masculine and all that stuff. And also like, you know, like bi and everything, I was kind of like, this is perfect. You know, this is, this is me. But then immediately they would do something. They were like, yeah, bro, mate, you know, dude. I'm like, well, that's not me.

That's about completely the opposite. Yeah. Or like, yeah, you'll watch something. And it's like, they have a very obvious like queerbait moment that is like for like Tumblr to consume and like turn into a gif set. Yeah. And then the rest of it is just not that. And it's like, yeah, we're just being baited so bad right now. I know.

And it's, and it's like, I realized something recently, which I think is like astounding and probably like part of my childhood, which is always the thing that I noticed as an adult now, which I should have noticed as a teen. And I don't know how well that was until like, like now that all the content I watched as a teen and I particularly like my, you know, 12 to 18, all these people have come out as queer or trans or something. And I'm like, this says a lot about me.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, my Twilight fixation makes a lot more sense now that Christian Stewart is, yeah, I know. It's like, oh, um, this makes sense. Like I used to binge, um, Charlie is so cool. Like, and Charlie is, if anyone follows Charlie is so cool. Like they've come out as trans and I was like, when I found that announcement, cause like she'd been dead on the internet for like probably about four years, no one had heard a pee from her.

And then she was just like posted this random Instagram and I was like, holy shit. Like yes. I told one of my friends that I was like messaging them just going, I am so excited. Like what is this? So yeah, it's like a surreal, like bait and switch, you know, like, um, I feel like things that I, you know, particularly were very normal and you know, like sexuality is such a spectrum now that in modern TV shows, we don't like, you know, don't really hit all of them.

And, but then you have like shows like heartbreak high and you know, it's, it's like, I get those shows existing, but I have one little gripe with them, you know, cause like sex ed did it first is, is the, is like the, the mainstream Netflix dramas, but heartbreak high, I do like that they listened to their actors and what they had and then they adjusted the script accordingly.

The other downside though I have is how much like, are we cramming, you know, like into a show, which then my, you know, like where does it like work and how does it fluctuate? Cause it doesn't like as a coming of age story, I'm it works, but I'm like, as an adult, I want to watch adults in those situations where they're still learning about themselves and that doesn't happen. What I get is drama shows that have nothing to do with that. Yeah. I loved heartbreak high.

Um, I thought it was fantastic. I've been to this weekend. Oh, did you just in a few days? Yeah. It was like, I stayed up, I think till like three AM and just like watch the whole thing in one go and I was obsessed. Um, but yeah, you're so right. Like there's like kind of this expectation that you're coming of age is like in your teen years where it's like, you know, like I'm still figuring things out. I'm still discovering things about myself.

And like, I feel like that's just an ongoing process, but yeah, it's kind of expected that you get to a certain point and you know who you are. And like, yeah, that kind of like, uh, finding your identity phase is like not explored as much in older content, which is a bit of a bummer. Yeah. Cause I mean like, you know, when did you know it like inside that you were like, this is who I am. I know I'm, you know, I'm queer. When did this happen for you at what age?

Mine is like my journey with my sexuality was like very fluctuating because I came out as a lesbian in high school. Um, and then like went to uni and then came out as bi. And then recently, like in the past year, two years or so have realized that I was right when I was 16 and actually a lesbian. So that was a fun little journey for me to go on.

And then also recently, I think like lockdown kind of forced everyone to be a bit introspective, but like lockdown, I thought a lot more about like gender and pronouns and stuff. So I changed my pronouns from she, her to she, they. But that's, that's subject to change. Like I feel like I'm kind of just experimenting with, with that at the moment. I love that though. That's like the only way to live.

Like you, you know, I, I, I was sort of like in a similar boat to you, but I was definitely like, I had the heteronormative like shove of, um, the late nineties, early two thousands. So my, my era of torture and torment, um, was like, I think particularly like this moment where I was like, oh, okay, I'm, I'm definitely don't like boys, even though I find them very attractive. I don't like men. No, that can't be a thing.

So I go away and I would still wonder why I'd watch shows and be like, that guy is very attractive. Like why is that a thing? But I also like women. What does that mean? So I'd always like think about these things. And I think when, you know, like I dated enough people and they were like, you're clearly bi.

You know, like this is the flags are very like obvious, but you know, like, you know, then, then other labels kind of kept coming up like pansexual, like, you know, asexual and stuff like that. And I was like, Oh, I don't know where I fit into anything. So I kind of like over-panicked. Um, and, and, and like, I went through my like hair dying stage when I was like 18, you know, like I, I missed doing it. I haven't done it since I was like 26. Um, how often do you dye your hair is my question.

It is currently like a strawberry blonde and it needs to be dying, but it is so dead at the moment. Um, I think I've gone through like three or four different colors. Um, but I'm, I'm really pushing it because she's, she's struggling. She's like, I can't keep holding this. Like I will die. Yeah. I was like the other day, like, Oh, I could die at balloon. I'm like, I actually don't know if my hair would survive another dye. So I don't know what I'm going to do. What's this space?

Watch this space. Watch this podcast. You can clearly see it. Yeah. Yeah. Watch this audio medium. Yeah. Audio medium. I mean, like that's also like one of the things that I remember, like I have gone red, I've gone blue. I've gone, you know, yellow. I've gone, um, aqua. I've gone black. Black was the weirdest thing because I do not have the voice to fit black.

Like cause what I always imagine people like, you know, with black hair is they have a really gravelly like deep tone and I'm like, no, no, no. I can, I can email kids like tumblr scene era kind of thing. Yeah, I know. Um, but I mean like, you know, it's, it's, I think as an adult, it's like, I stopped dying it when I was like, yeah, when I was 26 and I just, you know, it's expensive. It's expensive. It is. I don't know why I DIY it. I never go to a salon. Really?

Yeah. But that's why it's so bad because this is really embarrassing for me to admit because I didn't realize that some of the box dyes had bleach in it. And so I was dying my hair and I was like, why is it getting so brittle? Like I'm just putting dye in it. Um, and it's because there's also bleach in it. So I like bleached my hair like three times in one week. Oh my God. What are you doing to your poor hair?

I think I am like gearing up for a big chop, like just hacking it off and going from scratch. Um, I think it's literally the only way forward for my poor hair. Do you think you'll ever go like, you know, super pixie cut? I have in the past actually. Really? Yes. Um, and that was a lot of fun, but, um, I totally like underestimated the upkeep because it's like those like cool pixie cuts you see on like Instagram, they don't wake up with their hair like that.

So that's a solid half an hour of like styling. Oh yeah. Yeah. Which I was not prepared for cause I like, I'm a kind of a get out of bed, um, and then walk out the door and the next five minutes person, I'm like, I will leave at the last possible moment. And so adding an extra half an hour to my routine was just not happening, but you know, maybe in the future we'll see. I love that. I love that you're totally brutally honest. You're like, nah, it's roll out of bed.

I just, I know myself too well. Is that what you were like on set though? You just rolled out of bed and, and just bang on time. Oh, I don't know if I was bang on time. There was like, I can be to set on time. I can be to set five minutes late with a coffee and yeah, there were a couple of times where yeah, I was walking on set late with a coffee in hand.

Um, especially like, I think like the start, because it was my first feature film, like the start I was like, no, I need to be there early every single day and then you get to week five and I'm just like, I don't even know what time is anymore. Cause you're like doing five, six days a week anyway, with like barely any rest. We were doing like six days a week. It was so much fun, but like I look back now and I'm like, how did I do that for six weeks?

Yeah. I mean like I'm impressed that, you know, cause I imagine the film was like an hour and a half. Yeah. I know. Yeah. It was like around a hundred, it was 119 pages. So like, yeah. So like, you know, roughly 90 to a hundred minutes. Yeah. Give or take action sequences or anything like that. That's not, but you know, like, are you excited for when it comes out?

Yes and no. Yes, because it's going to be a good film, but no, because I know so intimately all the continuity mistakes that are going to be like, there's just like, I had this moment on set where I was like, I decided that, cause I don't know if you know this, but on IMDB there's like a continuity errors thing and just the thought of someone watching the movie and putting in the continuity errors, like actually was stressing me out so much that I just decided

that I would do it when the movie came out. I would just beat everyone to it. And then everyone just reads it and goes, Oh, I'll notice that now. But like in my head, I'm like, there was so many continuity errors and then like I'd bring them up and people would be like, I didn't notice that. I'm like, what do you mean you didn't notice that? There was like a painting that we had to move for a scene. It's in the background. I feel like I'm giving away all the secrets.

But yeah, there was a painting we moved in the background of one shot and then that hallway is visible in another shot. So the painting, I put it up for one of the shots and then the other one, like I took it down because we obviously, yeah, we're just moving around between rooms and stuff. So there's like a scene where it cuts in the paintings there and it's not there.

And I'm just like, Oh my God, people are going to notice this painting in the far left corner and I'm going to like never get hired again. Spiraling. That's like, that was like me actually on one of my own shoots where we like had mirrors and if anyone works with mirrors or they're a nightmare to work with. And one of my friends was literally caught in the mirror and we kept going like, move, move.

And yeah, the one shot that I really liked, she happened to be standing in the reflection of the mirror. She didn't realize she was standing there. I was like, oh. Yeah. The kitchen that we filmed in, that is like my sleep paralysis demon. I think about that kitchen all the time because all of the cabinets were glassed.

And we're filming at the table and you can just see the slightest boom just cut across some of the cabinets and I'm like, no. I, when we wrapped on the kitchen, I would, that was like the best day on set for me. I think it's also what I love about that film and I'm only seeing the stills by the way. I've not got a sneak peek. Oh my God. The stills look so good. It's just so good.

It's, it, I think there's a lot that, that, you know, like my good friend, Megan Bell, who I love so much and she praised you so much. She was like, you're interviewing Alice. Oh. And I was like, yes. Yeah. We, we really bonded, I think over this a couple of like minor things that her character always had on her. And so like keeping in charge of those continuity was like driving us both insane. So like bonding through trauma, I think.

Yeah. But I mean, like I think also, you know, that film in particular looks like gorgeous, looks stunning, but it also just kind of like the downside of indie, you know, like especially indie independent Australian is hopefully it gets traction because a lot of independent Australian films just kind of get released and then sometimes just disappear. Yeah. Like, is that a concern for you especially? Oh gosh. I don't know. I hope, I really hope it doesn't happen.

But yeah, I'm not sure what, what's going to happen, but I'm crossing my fingers. I've got, I've got them like this. If no one can see them, I've got my like fingers crossed being really excited. But I mean, like, you know, in particular, I want to talk about Young You and Young Alice. Yeah. Yeah. So it's gone into the, this is the trauma subject of like, so prepare yourself. Young Alice, where did it, where did Young Alice start from?

What was like the origins into your like writing and creativity? Okay. I do have like an origin, but it's like a little, it's a little cringy. But I think, I think that's okay, I think we can, we can divulge secrets. I started writing when I was 12 on like fanfiction.net. Love it. That was, that was the start of my writing career. And that made me fall in love with writing. Yeah. I started like, like writing stories on there.

Like, like I was like writing, so I don't think I'll ever like match the level of writing I was doing when I was 12. Like, it was insane. But yeah, I was doing that. And then like that made me fall in love with writing. And then I started writing like, very sporadically, like I've never been a consistent writer. But yeah, in my teen years, just like coming up with ideas and like my own worlds and stuff. And I was like, not a very social teenager.

So I think just like having that, like those little inner worlds to retreat to was like a big thing for me. And then I did media classes in like year 11 and 12. And I'm like, oh my god, I can write for movies. That's a thing. And that really blew my mind. I was like, I didn't really realize that like people wrote movies. And then like I read my first script and I was like, oh my god, this is what I want to do for the rest of my life. And then yeah, moved to Melbourne and the rest is history.

Oh my god. So where did you originally grow up? I grew up in rural South Australia. So you're a South Australia girl? Yeah. Born and raised out there? Born and raised in Narrocor, South Australia. Wow. Was that like, when did you realize you wanted to flee the South Australian borders? I was always like keen to go, to be honest. I actually went to boarding school when I was 13. I like begged my parents to send me to boarding school.

Wow. So I went to boarding school from like year nine to year 12 in Adelaide. And then Adelaide, I was like, nah, got to go to Melbourne. You were like just Adelaide shit. Better get the fuck out of here. Like go to somewhere a little bit more interesting. I remember like, well, cause I have like family in Melbourne, we used to come visit and like my grandma's house is like right next to Swinburne campus. And I thought it was like the most amazing place in the world.

And I would like walk past it all the time and I'm like, I want to go here and like, I want to live in Melbourne and study film. Yeah. I was like, oh my God, it's so funny now. Cause like I walked past this Swinburne campus and I'm just like, what, what did I see in this? But when I was like 16, I was like, this is the most amazing place in the world. I want to be here so bad. Oh yeah.

Yeah. And it tends to be the most amazing place in the world and you just get excited by everything and you're like, this is, this is the bee's knees. Yeah. And I remember I was like such a like classic, like country girl in the city when I first like moved to Melbourne, I was excited by everything. Like I would get my $6 coffee and I'd be like, oh my God, this is so cool. This is wholesome content. I am loving this.

I think it's like also the juxtaposition is I grew up in the city my entire life. So I've lived in Sydney for 30 years and like I love Sydney. I've always wanted, I think particularly when I was young, I wanted to live in the UK and that was like a no go. I was like, like as I got older, it just never happened. And now my partner and I are going to fly to Canada in a couple of years, which will be really exciting before we potentially decide to have a family.

So that is like, I know it's, I love it. And I think, but I also think that I've gotten to this age where I'm just very like excited and keen and thrilled about certain projects that I think, probably when I was younger and like a glossy eyed, when I first got my first ever television job where I was studying, I was like, everyone's amazing. And now I'm just like, ain't film projects fun and stressful and tiring. Yeah. I feel like it goes through like phases of like starry eye.

I still get like quite starry eyed sometimes. And then I'll just like have these massive crashes where I'm like, wow, this industry sucks. It's just like, I like am tired. And I think like my big crash on Remnant, I got COVID in like the third week and I was so miserable. How'd you get that? I know exactly where I got it. We went out on the weekend one night to this pub called the Woolpack.

And I just think, you know, if you're going to get COVID anywhere, it's in a rural town pub called the Woolpack. Like I should have seen it coming. Oh my God. So did a majority of you get sick? There was a period where we were kind of all dropping like flies basically. That was, it was so stressful. And I felt bad because I was one of the first people to get it. So I'm like, oh my God, I've infected everyone. I've ruined the movie. And then it's like two weeks later, you're all back at work.

Yeah. And it was like, like, yeah, after my like week of ice, I was like basically coughing the entire time and like wheezing. We like were in a theatre and like we were up in the dress circle and like down on the lower floor. And like I was like running around all the time and I'd like walk up a flight of stairs and I'm just like, I need to sit down for like 10 minutes. It's completely exhausted me. I had that too as well. Like I couldn't walk hills very easily for the first few days.

I get very tired and I had brain fog. Brain fog hit me hard. Yeah. All the joys. I know. I know. But I mean, like, you know, like what, like what do you do? We're in the middle of a pandemic, but at least it didn't like set back the film. It seemed to complete like semi on time. Yeah. We did the best that we could have considering the circumstances. Yeah. I don't think anyone was anticipating how badly we would get hit by Covid. But yeah, like I think we all really rallied together.

There was that last week of shooting that was in, in Maggi that was crazy. We just had so much left to do. And it was like, yeah, looking at all the scenes, like just figuring out like the most effective and most efficient way to like smash out as many as possible. And like, you know, like we got it done in it, but that feeling when we finished it was just so satisfying and just so incredible. It's like, yeah. And we had such an amazing team. So, you know, it was awesome.

Do you love it though, like how, how audience consume things as well and, and how we did as kids is so micro and nanosecond. We're like, this is great. This is terrible before we sometimes even watch it. Do you know, like finishing Remnant, I remember like the week afterwards I went and saw Nope. And like that, like I think after finishing like on a feature film set for like six weeks, I was like, how does anything ever get made? Like how do movies ever get made?

Like it really was like, and I watched that, I was like, how did someone make this? Like this is insane. Like there's so much stuff that goes into making a movie. It is a miracle that anything gets done. Like it was just mind blowing. And, and Nopes a great film, but it's like also like, I think the one that I always think of is Jordan Peele's first one, which particularly is like that low budget. Like even though it has like get out, has a sort of semi budget, it still feels a bit more indie.

Then probably like us and Nope. And particularly when you look at that film, you're kind of like, how did this get made? I think it had two months filming. Wow. Yeah. And just like so out of the blue as well. It's like such a random film to just take off. Yeah. I mean like, there might be something new, right? And suddenly everyone's like, Ooh, maybe famous one day. I mean, like is there, particularly as a writer though.

And now as you write fanfic clearly, do you think there's anything in particular that you're like, this, this is like shows or, you know, storylines that I want to take on or is there a media like, you know, whether it's a play, whether it's a television or whether it's a film or whether it's radio are the particular like avenues you also want to try. Yeah. I, I recently started getting to theater actually, which has been so fun. I really want to like, I've started writing a theater show.

Oh really? It's been awesome. Yeah. Um, actually I think started writing is maybe not the right way to describe it because I'm taking a script that I wrote as a short film and turning it into a theater show. But, um, Oh, so you're adapting. Adapting, adapting my own work that I never made, but it was like, I, yeah, I worked as a stage manager on like a student show and I just loved it. It was so fun. Um, and then I was like, I want to do this.

Um, and then realizing like theater is great because you, a lot's left to the imagination and I have this script that's like set in a mansion and it's like, I was never going to be able to like hire a mansion to film in, but I can just put a bunch of people on a stage and say, this is in a mansion and people will be like, yeah, that's in a mansion. So yeah, I was like that this is the one I'm turning into a play. I love the dedication. You're like, this, this is my decision.

This is what it will be. It was kind of like a process of elimination and also like, I just wanted to like, I finished this play and I was like, I want to keep doing this and I know all these people who will make a play with me now. And so I just wanted to like capitalize on that. And I was like, it's going to be easier to like pick one of the millions of scripts I have just like sitting in a drawer rather than like creating something from scratch.

It's also going to like when you make a film, it's always a budgetary thing you stress about and you know, whether it's going to be good or whether it's going to be bad, um, whether it's going to look cheap or terrible. Like is there any particular ideas, especially with like, you know, storylines that you have that you're like, I really want to invest one day in a project of mine.

Yeah, I think that's like the hard thing about screenwriting is like, I love writing and like I will just write like anything and like I would just do it for fun. But then like screenwriting, it's like, there's so much writing on that. Like you're sending that off and that's like going to go to a director and then like people are going to turn up on set and they're going to shoot what you wrote. And there's so many people who are dependent on like what you wrote being good.

It can't just be like something like I'm just like writing in my room for myself, you know? So it's like, it's like that extra level of like pressure when it comes to script writing. And like I, yeah, I'm writing like a feature film at the moment, which is like a kind of like a queer horror. Oh my God. Yeah. Which has been really fun, but that's like, I want that to be like really, really good. And so it's taking me forever to write because I'm like just feeling so much pressure.

Yeah. But yeah, there's so many like little concepts and stuff in that. And I'm like, I don't know if this works, but I really like it. What like when you sort of start writing though, and you know, are you one of those writers that stares at a blank page for like two hours hoping that an idea flows out of your brain? Like typically I think like an idea will like live in my head for quite a while before I like commit to putting it on the page.

Yeah. And like scripts, I think like prose is different. Like I would just like write prose for fun and just like, you know, short stories and just whatever. I just like that. I feel like I can just let loose and just like write literally whatever. And then if it's like, I'll just cut it or like, you know, if it's not good, it doesn't matter. Like I tend to spend a bit more time planning. I think as well, like, I don't know the same about screenwriting and like scripts.

I feel like they just need to be like really well structured. Like I think a book doesn't need to be as structured as a screenplay. In my experience at least. So yeah, like I will usually for a screenplay will cue cut everything out first. I will put it on my iPad, like as like cue cards, like that I can like access online, which is good. Like if I'm ever like out in public and like I don't have my cue cards with me, I'll just have them on my iPad or on my phone.

And so like I find that really handy. And then just like visually seeing it like on a screen is super helpful for me. So like, yeah, a lot more planning goes into like a screenplay for me. Oh, that's awesome. I think also, you know, particularly with writing and you know, like something that I've done visually, like my background's editing. So it's like, I'm particularly good at noticing when scripts don't flow because you're like, especially when you're editing something, you're like, oh, okay.

And then that doesn't sit right or that, you know, like, but as my own editor, when I edit my own content, have you ever, it's terrible. No, it's not that bad. I actually don't write terribly. I just sort of like, I write in such a predictable ADHD way, which is the dots connect very specifically to me, but most like people won't join the dots. Really what I need is a script consultant, always making sure a script editor, making sure it sounds consistent.

Well, look, not to like, you know, I do do script consultants and stuff. If you ever need someone to write coverage for you. Is that a bit of a, is that a bit of like a self plug? I mean, like, do you know, because you, you talk about being a fan of stuff, like I'm, I will admit I do, you know, like, and you've probably seen on my Facebook and stuff, like, you know, my doctor who like, yeah, I've seen a little bit of Doccy who have you watched any of it? No, I should.

I'm like very new to the doctor who fandom. I only watched the show for the first time last year. Really? Yeah. Which is like quite surprising for me. And like, that was like a, like a secret. That was like me being in the closet, like all my friends are massive doctor who fans. And I was like, yeah, doctor who's great. And I'm like, I haven't seen it. And it's like way too late for me to catch up. Did you, which doctor do you start with?

I started, I started from the like Christopher Ecclestone and then I'm actually, yeah, I watched it with my friends and we recently restarted watching it. Cause we stopped at Capaldi and then we've jumped back in now. So yeah, we're, we're currently halfway through the Jodie Whittaker or at least the start of it. I'm very excited to get up to Whittaker cause I'm very curious. I've had a lot, so I love her very much. I think she did a great job and now her era is done.

Yeah. I'm excited to see her go, but I'm also excited what they all do next. But if anyone knows me, I am not a Russell T Davis fan as much.

I am very controversial, love him as a person, but as a, as a doctor who fanatic, I just find his writing is way too fanfic-y even for me to sit there and go at this point, you've lost me of who, who should be in this episode and who should, and I just felt like I was like, I Eccleston and like if I could list my favorite actors who have played the doctor, it'd be Eccleston, like Christopher Eccleston, Matt Smith and Jodie Whittaker. I think are phenomenal. I think they did a great job as well.

David Tennant is my weakest out of all of them. I know scandal, scandal. I am, I'm destroying so many hearts right now and making a lot of people angry. But yeah, he's just like, he's a great actor. Don't get me wrong. David Tennant. I love him, I love him in Broadchurch. I love him in a lot of different shows. But just as the doctor, he wasn't something that sat well with me.

And I think I didn't particularly like the fandom around that time and the fandom that's really like hostile around that thing. But it's interesting because being particularly like knowing what it's like to write fanfic and particularly like your own fan orientation stuff is interesting when you start writing and people just go, oh, it needs to be more like this. And it's something of the fandom that you don't like.

And you go, this is not what I like, but people are telling me that I should always channel it to a certain degree. It's funny because I know a lot of people who watch my Doctor Who stuff love it, but it's a majority of it is female doctors. And I sometimes get comments on it, which are, they're better than Jodie. Oh, they're so much sexier than Jodie. Like all these things. And it's like, I don't know, it's like some men are like, oh, how are they this smart? And I was like, that works.

It's like a toxic fandom, like society. Do you find that now as well, like particularly as a writer to kind of avoid that toxic side of writing and fandom? Yeah, there's so much. There's so many toxic fandoms out there. Yeah, I've definitely been like stuck, like, and it's not like a fun place to be. Like you can get quite obsessive when you're in those fandoms and you're like, my shift is correct.

Like my shift is going to be canon because XYZ and it's just like, it kind of sucks the fun out of it eventually. Like, but yeah, I've definitely like been like neck deep in some like interesting fandoms before. But yeah, like my like little goal for myself is if I ever become a successful writer, I want to have like a ship that creates discourse. Like, that's how I'll know I've made it if I have a show. I'm like, this is like my one goal as a writer is to have like a discourse ship.

Wow. Yeah. So like, like an Edward Cullen, you know, like kind of ship or just like something way worse. Like, hi, I'm, I love, I really love Enemies to Lovers. Wow, I'm feeling all the secrets on this podcast. But yeah, Enemies to Lovers is like my guilty pleasure. And so like, I would love to like have a long running show with like a long Enemies to Lovers arc. Oh, lovely. And have some discourse on Twitter. That would be, that would be fun. Oh my god.

That would be like my ideal sick like of success. I'm so concerned. I know I was just, you know, always say what I was thinking. It was like, I remember sitting around with a bunch of Em's friends and they all do roller derby together and they were all talking about First Kill, which is a Netflix show. And just made me think of back when we were talking about queerbaiting and that show.

But that, that like, you know, that show in itself is also just, what is it about like certain like traps or like, I want to say thirst traps or like relationship discourse? Um, has in like some characters that happens in a lot of shows where they're like, they should get together, they shouldn't get together. Yeah. Or it's like the supernatural kind of avenue where they just sort of happen to get together for no apparent reason. Yeah, supernatural is, oh my gosh.

Yeah. Do you, do you feel like that when you're like watching any show that you're like, was there a legitimate reason for these characters to get together? And do you, do you look at the forums and, and, and stuff like, especially with your writing, do you, do you want your audience, I guess, to realize that they're going to get together and not just ache and bait them and be like, they should, they shouldn't, but they won't.

I love like, I think shipping can get toxic very quickly, but if you're like engaging with it on a surface level, it's a lot of fun to just watch a show and be like, these characters are cute together. And like, I'll, I'll like some fan art of them and like engaging on that level is always fun and I would love it if I made a show that like had fan art and fan fiction and like had a fandom. Um, that would be amazing. Like, like, like I would genuinely love that.

Like that would be so surreal and so cool. Um, and like, yeah, it just seems like so far out of the realm of possibility of like what I can have, you know? Um, yeah, I would love, I would love to have like a show or like a film or a piece of media that like has an online fandom and like Tumblr and TikTok and stuff. Like I engage with that stuff quite regularly and that's a big part of my life and like how I engage with shows. And so, um, I would love it if that happened with Sonic Hyrule.

That would be awesome. Are you a, are you a big TikToker? On and off. Um, it's, it's so addictive. Um, and a little bit like it can, it can get quite toxic quite quickly with as with any corner of the internet. Um, yeah, but like when it, when it's good, it's good. You know, the, the algorithm is insane.

Like I don't know what they do and how they do it, but it is so accurate and like gets to like the nitty gritty of like little tiny niches that you have and you can like find your people really quickly and that like, that's really cool. Um, and like it's concerning cause it's like, how did they know? I think it's, I think it's like someone did an experiment recently where they kept talking out loud to their phone and then the phone would listen to them.

And then the algorithm on Tik Tok would work it out by what they've said out loud. Cause like your phone actually does listen to you. And like I've seen like videos of people like, I mean, it's fun when it's like, you know, the algorithm like finds out like, you know, what shows I'm watching and like, that's fun.

But then it's like, I've seen people do experiments, but they'll create a Tik Tok account and then like we'll swipe and try and get to like alt right videos and see how quickly they can get into like, you know, some like pretty far right media. And it takes them like less than an hour of scrolling to get to like Ben Shapiro, Jordan Peterson, like that corner. And it's just, that's pretty frightening. Oh, yeah.

I mean that, that, that makes me think of like, you know, like how the dark web of Tik Tok. I mean on any side, like Reddit is also particularly. Oh, Reddit's the worst. Yeah, Reddit. Um, I, I like sometimes like what did my toes into Reddit every now and again, but like, it's very selective and like I, there's some, there's some horrible stuff on that side. Cause were you born in the late nineties, early two thousands here? Ninety nine. Yeah. Nineties baby just. Love it.

So you would have encountered a few websites that before they got taken down, um, did you ever remember, were you ever morbidly curiosity kid? Oh, I don't know. Did you ever look up weird things on the internet when you were young? I did. Like I was definitely around in the peak of like creepy pasta Slenderman and stuff. That was like probably like my limit. And then like, I got weirdly into, you know what ARGs are? Vaguely. Um, augmented reality gaming.

Um, that was like something I got really into as like a teen, um, because that's like just, you just deep dive into like these weird like pockets of the internet and like look for clues and stuff. Um, so I think like those kind of marketed themselves as like dark and disturbing, but in reality they like, they weren't, they were all like made up, but like that was probably like the furthest I got. I love that. I mean like my dark web eventually got me, I don't know.

It sort of like ended up being like this site where you would see like it's done off nice and happy and fluffy. And then so it would get more and more dark the further you scrolled and like it was more disturbing. I think you, it said how far in can you get before you want to leave? There's like that weird addictive thing about like the internet where they'll have like things like just out of like the corner of your eye that you shouldn't be looking at.

It's very tempting to just like look and click and just see what's there. Yeah. Were you ever like, because did you ever as a teenager, like look up things and then do that delete history so no one could work out what you were staring at? I don't know. Like I was a bit of a, like I probably still am. Like I love horror, but I am like a massive softie.

And like, I think I'm very good at recognizing like my limits of like, if I look at this, like this is going to keep me up for a few nights and like, so I won't do that. So you respect yourself. I think I just don't trust myself. Although like I think in terms of like deleting search history and stuff, there's a lot of that in terms of fan fiction. When I was a kid, I was like very embarrassed by it, but now I'm like, I don't care.

I will tell anyone clearly because I'm talking about it on this podcast. Yeah, I know. You're clearly like, I don't give a shit and everyone get the fuck away. I think I've just accepted that I'm like a huge nerd and like, I just am very happy to like openly say that I'm a nerd so I can find other nerdy people to talk with. I think like you do already from the vibe that you're in a very safe space. It is a very safe space here. Nerd away.

I mean like I think also with like in terms of just like internet browsing and stuff like that when I was young and it always seemed like such a dodgy way, but I remember like there used to be a lot of flash animation websites and I found one recently, which was a flashdown memory lane and I don't know why it was so bizarre, but it was something my brother and I found and it was a website just with a song called Mushroom, Mushroom, Mushroom, Mushroom, Mushroom Badger.

And if you look it up on YouTube, it's a weird flash animation where it goes on repeat and then occasionally you see a snake in it. Yeah. I kind of miss that era of internet. Like what? Like it was almost psychedelic. Like you just didn't know. Yeah. It was just so weird like those web two websites that just like so, so bizarre. Like yeah. Or like you like puzzles and stuff to figure out and like you get there and then it's like a jump scare at the end.

It's kind of like, it's like weirdly nostalgic and cute. Like now it's like, I remember those, I remember when I first got on Facebook and there were those things that were like, if you don't like this post and share it, this person's going to come murder you tonight. I miss those. I miss those. I genuinely believed them and I remember like as a kid, it's so funny, I would like see them and I'd be too scared to like them and I'd be like, okay, well, so it's not going to come kill me tonight.

So if I stay up till midnight, then I'm good because then it's daytime technically after that and then it's fine. And so I used to like to sit in bed, just like terrified waiting for it to hit midnight. So I wouldn't get murdered. But I miss that. I miss that era of internet. I miss that era of feeling like I would be murdered every night. Yeah, exactly.

I think my favorite part was like the ones that said it was like until 3am and then you're like, clearly the witching hour, get fucked internet. Or they're like ones that are like, if you share this with 20 friends, like you'll get all of this good things and if you don't, you'll get brutally murdered. Yeah, I know. I think it also didn't help that I grew up with shows like X-Files where like an episode would be of this premise where people did die of murder. Like some of these kind of things.

I grew up with very dark shows. So it was like, did not help my imagination. I think like my like first kind of experiences with horror with those like found footage movies, like those were big when I was an early teen. Ah, so like paranormal activity and... And like Blair Witch Project and stuff like that scared the shit out of me. I was like so gullible. I was like, if you told me this was real, I was like, yeah, this is real. Like this is a real deal. This actually happened.

Like it's on a security camera footage. You can't fake that. None of these are actors. I think, did you, what about mainstream horror now? Like, you know, when you watch things because like everything under the sun is like slashes or you know, a lot of them are just like, you know, massive murder mystery slashes. But occasionally there's good cherry like on top weird ones. What's your favourite go to horror, I guess nowadays? That's a good question.

Um, I don't know if I have a go to, but I, I one that came out recently that I'm obsessed with is Fresh. I haven't seen it yet. It's so good. There's some really good like feminist horror coming out a lot nowadays, which is awesome. And I love it. Um, but yeah, that, that movie was great and like really gave me the ick, which, um, yeah, so good. I think, I think what's the one I loved recently. Um, uh, other than Nope, which was just creepy and phenomenal. I watched Black Phone recently.

Oh, was it good? It was so good. It was so fucked up. I think it's like also what creeped me out is like less jump scares and more just unsettling. Everything has to be unsettling. Um, yeah. And nerve wracking. And I think like, I think I get to this stage where I'm getting so adult where I'm like, I can't watch someone get disemboweled too much. There's a limit to how much disembowelment I can watch.

So like a shock value occasionally with like horror, um, I'm fine with, but nowadays it's like, I love more paranormal. I used to love slashes when I was younger, but now it's more paranormal, weird stuff. Yeah. I think like when it hits that sweet spot where it's like paranormal, weird, and like a bit of gore, like that's the stuff that'll like really fuck with me. Really?

I actually, not a movie, but I recently read, um, Izumaki Mejongi Ito, which is a manga, a horror manga, which was so, so, so good. And freaked me the heck out. You know what? I wonder how did the show from on Stan? I have, and, um, I haven't watched it, but I, I should. I would recommend that highly. Cause that's like, yeah. I know it's by the guys that did Lost. Yes. Yeah. And I love Lost. That's one of my favorite shows. It's so much better than Lost though. Like it's so good.

It's so weird and wonderful. And I really hope it doesn't go for as many seasons as Lost. Yeah. I love those like old and long running shows, but I'm very happy that we're not doing them all. Yeah. I'm happy that it's occasionally like, we occasionally get shows that last about five seasons and then they're like, we're done now. Yeah. I think like having an expiry date is important for a TV show now. Like knowing when you're going to finish is important. Um, like I don't think good story.

Well, I mean like, obviously they did, but like, I think it's very hard to create good stories from the idea that you just need to keep pushing it for as long as possible. And it's like, the idea is like more output rather than good story. Like, yeah. Like, you know, like I feel like a lot of those longer running American shows, they'll have like a massive slump in like the later seasons.

Like it's just because like they're just trying so hard to like extend like what little story they have left. It's, it's the kind of how I feel about like American Horror Story and stuff like that. I'm like, I don't know how they keep making it. It's okay. Some seasons are better than others. Um, but like, I feel like Ryan Murphy recently, I have so many issues with Ryan Murphy. I mean like, have you seen, um, uh, the monster Dharma yet? I'm not watching Dharma.

I don't really feel the need to watch that. And I don't really like that that show was made at all. So I'm just like not touching it. Interesting. You're like me then you're, you just, cause I have a big hate to watch that. I don't want to watch it. And I just, I don't want to watch it. I've never had an inkling to watch it. I like a lot of like stories about serial killers and, and, and stuff like that, but I have in particular how this is glorified. Um, I have no desire to watch.

I'm like, I'm not going to watch this. No, no. And it's like, I think people kind of forget like the seventies feels like a really long time ago, but it's actually not when you think about it, like it was 40 years, like people who's like families were affected by that are still alive. And you know, they should not have to be subjected to their loved ones gruesome, horrifying deaths being like exploited for profit. Like, you know, like I just don't see the point in why it's made.

And like, I, yeah, true crime is, is an interesting sub genre. And I think I understand the appeal, not that like I'm into it, but like understand like where the fascination comes from and why people want to consume it. But I think, like, I think recently as well, there's kind of been this idea that's like you're consuming true crime. Like it makes you more vigilant or like it somehow like helps you.

But like, I think you just need to, if you're like consuming true crime, you kind of just need to accept that it's probably not good for you, but you can still consume it if you want. Like I don't like the idea that every piece of media has to be like beneficial for you and to try and spin it like that, it's probably not like the best, especially when it's like like true crime. I don't know if that makes sense, but It does. It does.

And he made me think of a show which I really liked called Dez, which stars David Tennant as a guy called Desmond Nielsen. And he was a real life serial killer, but what they don't show is any of the murders. They don't ever show the murders. And what they do is show the police procedure afterwards, like after he was caught. And it's really interesting and thoroughly more disturbing how much he is a compulsive liar and everything than it was actually seeing him do any of the crimes.

And there was an interview with David Tennant where he said, we waited until he died before we made that because we didn't want him to think he was being glorified. And at any point, you know, be like, this isn't me. This is like they're, you know, like telling lies. I never killed these people. Like they didn't want him to have any ignition. So when he died, they were like, we can now make this. This is okay. And it's the same principle.

Like I think the only other show that worked really well in that sort of like true crime format was like a show Mindhunter. Yeah. I think like anything can be done well and done respectfully, like no matter the subject matter. Yeah. Like there's a film that I love called Charlie Says, which like no one has heard of, but it's like, oh yay, yay. I love Mary Haran. She's like, I'm obsessed with her. She's great. Have you seen it? I have not. But I have, I have heard of it.

Yeah. But it's, it's so, so well done. But like, yeah, the basic premise is like, it's about the, the Charlie Manson murders, but it's primarily set afterwards and it focuses on like three girls who were like put in prison for the murders. And rather than the plot being about like Charles Manson, it's about the girls.

And like the central question of the film is whether or not they should be deradicalized in prison because if they are deradicalized and they like kind of come to grips with what they've done, like that's going to be quite like, it's going to torment them quite a bit. But then it's also like, they kind of do they need to like be deradicalized so they can understand the extent of what they've done. Yeah. And then so that's really fascinating.

And then also they kind of cut back to like how they got radicalized in the first place. And I think it's just done so well. It doesn't like, like sympathize with them in a way that like forgives them for what they've done, but you do see how it happens. And I think it's just done so well. And I think more people should watch it. And Matt Smith plays like Charles Manson, which is like great casting. And yet no one's seen it or heard of it. And so I just, I think that's a crime. It's really good.

I love Matt Smith. So that's how I follow it. Yeah. Well, that's funny because like I watched that before I watched Doctor Who. That was my introduction to Matt Smith. Jesus Christ. So that's a dramatic. It was that. And then I watched last night in Soho and then I watched Doctor Who. It was like a complete reversal of how like everyone else was introduced to like the love of Matt Smith.

Do you know what's funny about last night in Soho though is it's not like a film that I think it kind of dropped its feminist angle like halfway through. I, yeah, I was, I was disappointed by that movie. I feel like there's a, I have this problem and Don't Worry Darling got me as well where like the trailers will show like this really like eerie, spooky, vibey kind of story. And then you watch the movie and then like all the substance to it is just those like spooky eerie, vibey shots.

And there isn't like an actual like tangible like plot. Like a lot of it is just a girl running around like freaking out. Yeah. I think my biggest pet peeve of also was about that film was there was just so much like unnecessarily watching Florence Pugh and Harry Styles have sex, which I didn't need at all. Especially Harry Styles. Bye bye. I went to see Don't Worry Darling with my little sister. Which yeah, I regretted about five minutes into the movie. Yeah, because there's that.

Olivia Wilde, why would you do this to me? If anyone hasn't seen it, but watch the trailer because it's also in the trailer, but it's like literally the dinner scene. And Florence Pugh's character is like, I've made dinner. Harry Styles comes in and is like, that's great. And then they start making out and then he starts to proceed to give her head like while she pushes food off the side of the table. How old's your sister? She's um, she's 17. Oh, okay, that's fine. It's fine. It's fine.

Like it's fine. Like she like, you know, she's welcome to watch whatever content she wants, but I'm just like, ah, this is awkward. But like, I mean, like we were both like, you know, we were both on the Don't Worry Darling drama side of the internet, which is a fun place to be. And I think everyone in my cinema was also on that side of the internet because we were all having a very fun time in that screening. Cause the only reason that film did well.

Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy how like that kind of publicity ends up creating a profit. I mean, like it's, it's kind of a shame. Like how do you feel about Olivia Wilde's career at this point? I, I like, I didn't like Don't Worry Darling, but I would watch the heck out of any movie she made. Like I, I just like, I want her to win. I want her to succeed. I think like Don't Worry Darling had a lot of things in it that I wanted a film to do for a while. It just didn't quite stick the landing for me.

And I think like it could have done so much more, but like the fact that she like, she tried and like, that's the kind of story she wants to tell. Like, I'm like, I will watch whatever you want to make. Like she's just, yeah. No one else is making a movie like Don't Worry Darling at the moment. I didn't like it and I thought it was bad, but you know, I want more of that. You want, you want more of this kind of film. Yeah. And analyze. Done well, but ideally.

Yeah. I mean, Don't Worry Darling just needed another draft and then that was the reality of the situation. I agree. Yeah. I mean, I know this, but it was actually like on the 2019 blacklist. That's how it started. Yeah, I was. Yeah. Which is so weird to me. And like it was written by two men, which I was like very surprised to learn. But like, I don't necessarily think a movie like Don't Worry Darling can't be written by someone, you know, a guy. Yeah. But yeah.

And then I just think probably needed just an extra pair of eyes or something. Like it felt like a first draft movie. But then also like it was major in quarantine and like COVID and stuff. And you know, there was so much stuff going on behind the scenes. Yeah. And Don't Worry Darling though, is one of those films that you look at and you just go, oh, okay. The list of problems with it is insane. Yeah. Like it feels never ending and long and, you know, difficult and everything.

It just, yeah, there was like a solid like act of the movie where they just felt like the story was kind of at a standstill and it was just spinning wheels. I don't know if you have this thing as well, because like you're also a creative, but like sometimes when I'm watching a movie that's bad, I like, I realize it's bad. Because I'm like sitting in the cinema, like thinking of how I would do it.

Yes. Like once you get to that point, when I'm like at that point in a movie, I've checked out like you're not getting me back on board if I'm like, this is how I would have done it. There's a dial tone in me going beep, beep. I'm like, I'm tuned out. Yeah, no, I just, I don't understand films like that. And I think, you know, like there's, there's a lot of it just, you know, where they don't work or they don't function or, you know, storylines don't go anywhere.

And that is a pro, like particularly with that story, it's a particular problem. Yeah. Cause the premise is awesome. And like the story is, it's a cool idea, but it felt like it was less interested in telling that story and more interested in like being smart. But like, I think if it, I mean, like, I think I would have the like escape sequence, I think was so like, oh, she's gotten a car and drove to the edge of town.

Like it felt, that felt too easy, like I would have liked more obstacles and like that being a bigger part of the movie, like figuring out how to leave, how to escape and like, you know, maybe getting some of the other women out as well. I was kind of like, no, no, no, no. I felt like the ending, the, the way the ending happens as well, like, and, and just, you know, like it doesn't feel like it's earned. Nothing feels like it's earned.

Yeah. I think like, oh, I could talk about this, we could go down this overhaul. Um, but like, yeah, I felt like there should have been a lot more to Jack as well. Like, and I think a little bit of that is to do with Harry Styles, but like, I just would have liked to have seen more of his like psyche and how he got to this point, how he's justifying it to himself. You know, like a bit more of that inner turmoil and like what is going through his head.

Like I feel like that was left too little too late. I think it's, I think he started off really well as well. I think, I think like his acting is not the best. It's not Florence Pugh. No, it's not Florence Pugh, but it was like, okay. And it was good enough, but it was really came down to just like, he happened to be dating the director or wanting, or they were having the affair at some point. Yeah. Well, whatever was going on there.

Yeah. So it's like, just like, did Olivia Wilde just go, yeah, I want him in the bedroom. And that was kind of like how he got hired because originally like Shia LaBeouf and yeah, it's all like home, there's so many layers to this. Yeah. Which I don't think will ever get answered. I mean, yeah. And we were like talking about earlier as well, like with TikTok and like those algorithms and how you get sucked into those like spaces. Yeah. And like, I feel like the film wanted to talk about that.

Like he literally had Discord open on his laptop. Yeah. And I was like, I would have liked to have seen more of like how that pipeline happened because you don't just wake up one day and stick your wife in the fifties. It's a very casual thing to do. There's a process. And I would have liked to have seen like, I feel like it's important to show how that progression happens because that happens to so many people on a day to day basis and it's really scary.

And I kind of wish the movie was more interested in telling that side of the story, but it just, it felt very one note, unfortunately. I want to, I want to touch on cancel culture as well. Oh yeah. Like as something that I think about a lot and you know, we're talking about Florence Pugh and everything, when do you think that stuff is appropriate? Like when do you think that all of that stuff is appropriate in the way we do work? See, see that's interesting.

Cause like, I think with the Olivia Wilde stuff, like she's getting like flamed online right now. Yeah. But like, I think comparatively like this Amsterdam is coming out right now and like that's in cinemas and that's a movie that got made by someone who is like a like abuser who is like openly admitted to it and is still allowed to make a movie and is like, you know, it doesn't have anywhere near the level of discourse that I've seen about Olivia Wilde.

So it's like cancel culture is interesting because like, I feel like, you know, what's cancel culture and what's just accountability. You know, like sometimes people do shitty things and people are calling them out for it.

You know, it's like, but then I think especially like, I don't know, like on the left side of the internet and like TikTok and Twitter is especially notorious for this where like people are getting like held to the fire for the things that like, you know, are quite minor in the grand scheme of things are more like past mistakes.

And it's like a very complex world to navigate because like, you know, people make mistakes and like people should be held accountable, but it's like the level of accountability and the level of like hate is quite disproportionate to what happens. Oh, a hundred percent. We live in this very strange time where we just don't know quite what to do with all of it. And especially with cancel culture and everything. It's just a very like surreal time. It's so, yeah, the internet's a scary place.

And like, it's still, I think people don't really realise that it's still new. Like social media is still new. We're still figuring things out. And like, there's just like so many people on these platforms now. Yeah, it's ages away. Yeah, it's very, like, very fascinating topic and very, very complex, I think. Because like, I think on a certain level, people should be held accountable for things they say online and like things that they do. But then at what point is like that not appropriate?

And like, you know, what point do we say like, like, you know, you've apologised, you've taken steps and you're not that person anymore and you've taken accountability. Yeah. And like, I think there's like this weird thing where it's like, we don't really know how to redeem people. Yeah. Like, I think that's a big thing. Like people will be like, quote, held accountable, but then it's like people won't actually let them go and let them kind of like return.

And like, obviously, like, it's different to pay like some people like genuinely abuses. Yeah. Like that's just like a whole different thing. But like, I'm mainly talking about like, you know, not that. Like, yeah, those are kind of. Yeah, I think they're like very hostile and sexist and, you know, racist and awful people out there. But I also think that cancel culture in particular, we really kind of hamfist and judge and forth without a lot of contextual stuff.

And I agree with you, we are very, we are very like unnecessarily vicious with it when it comes to cancel culture and sometimes unjustly. Yeah. And I've had this conversation with a lot of friends where it's like, we don't really have like in media, a lot of like redemption stories. We don't have like, especially in like Western media, where it's like you'll have a character who's like, quote, like, I don't know if you've seen, have you seen She-Ra?

Yes. Yeah, I've seen people be like, Katra is problematic. And it's like, yeah, she is, but she still deserves redemption. And like, that's a thing that like she's allowed. And like, I think, yeah, and like people will like assign like morality to like the media you watch, like it gets like super like, you know, specific and like, like, I think we just need more stories that have characters who fuck up and do the wrong thing and are still allowed to come back from that.

Like, and I think it's like a big part of like, we don't know what to do with people who have messed up and like want to and like, and taking steps and they're coming back and like, we just don't know how to deal with that. We need things to be like, black and white. And like things aren't. So no, and I think, I think when you half explain a situation, it sounds worse than it actually is. Like I've had my fair few list of people who have tried to discredit me.

And it's like, you know, whether whether that's down to actually them knowing me is the is the next question, because I think, you know, I would like to say that I'm a very honest and transparent person. People don't like always honesty. So therefore, they just kind of go, ah, what do I do with that? And then I think it's also like that thing is like, very much because I'm so honest and stuff.

I think a lot of my mental health has impacted people in a negative way where they thought I was oversharing. And then that leads to, you know, manipulation and or like, oh, I didn't need to hear that. Why don't you? You're like, that's TMI. And it's like, oh, I was just trying to connect. And then they're like, back off. That's weird. Yeah, I think yes. I think we can talk about like fandom and characters that don't exist in real life situations. I think that they're different.

But like, yeah, there's a lot of nuances to like things like, you know, trauma dumping and like sharing and like, you know, like, yeah, it's I think we're still kind of learning what, like how to communicate that in the language that we need to use when we're sharing sensitive information. And, you know, there's going to be like, it's yeah, again, it's not all black and white. Like, sometimes you have things that you want to get off your chest.

And it's like kind of hard to communicate, like, is this okay to share now? And like, it doesn't feel natural to like, be like, are you in the right space? Not natural, but like, it's, you know, there's a few extra steps that like come to having like healthy, productive mental health conversations that like just that kind of language didn't exist, you know, 10 years ago.

So I think we're all still learning how to be respectful and, you know, healthy and like, yeah, you know, because obviously we all want that human connection, but it's like, you know, figuring out where people are and meeting them there. And I don't know if I'm rambling, but No, I love that. I was also going to say, though, like, particularly when you sort of said, oh, I don't think they connect. I think they do in a way.

Yeah. And I want to give you my sort of two cents thought on how I think they connect. Yeah. And I think that because of the way we process media and especially a bit like, you know, particularly like she, you know, shows like She-Ra and stuff, where we try and show redemption arcs and we try and show like the gray areas and everything.

I think as a, you know, like a species, because we see as everything is very black and white, I think we're trying to learn through media as being like these fictional fantasy characters can do it. Why can't I? Yeah. And whether they're, you know, like it's an episodic thing, I think people just think, but that's only ever happens in television. So therefore it doesn't happen in real life and people are only black and white. So therefore, shame them instantly.

Yeah. Maybe, maybe not connect is not the right word because there's definitely like what you like. I feel like having exposure to things in media has a massive impact on like real life things. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. I think having, yeah, having the framework shown in media is super important. Even if it's like a fantasy kid show like she wrote, like it is important to have characters like Katra who fuck up. Yeah. And like she is evil and she does evil things, but she still deserves redemption.

But then like, yeah, like it's not like one for one to real life, I guess is what I was saying. But like, yeah, for sure. We definitely need, I, I'm a big advocate for like, you know, situations that are messy and complex and like that needs to be shown in like characters who are messy and complex still deserve, you know, love. And like care and like it's important to show that and to show like characters having, you know, that redemption for sure.

Like I've seen like with Heartbreak High, a lot of discourse around Harper, which I hate because like you can have a character like Harper who does horrible things and like fucks up and like, you know, is like really mean to her best friend and like does things that like are so like, you know, like why would she do that? And you're watching and you're like, why is she doing this? She doesn't deserve like Anne-Marie's friendship.

And like, I've seen a lot of that kind of commentary and it's like, no, but like she does, you know, she can't like Anne-Marie is allowed to forgive her and she's, she's allowed to choose that. And it's like, I think that's important to show like you can mess up and people can still come back to you. You know what I mean? Like, I think that's a really important thing to show in media, especially like coming of age stuff for sure. Yeah, absolutely.

It's like I am comfortable talking about actually it's tendentially related to mental health. I think I don't know if you've had a similar experience or you know, people have had a similar experience with lockdown, we're talking about like gender and stuff, but I also like came to the realization that I'm probably neurodivergent. Really? Yeah. That's it. That's that's in what capacity? Like I initially I was thinking ADHD.

However, like, I don't know, I'm going to try to get like properly diagnosed. And I feel like it's a good thing to bring up just because like, I feel like it's had a massive impact on my creativity, and just how I like process like writing and stuff. But also think like I may be on the like autism spectrum. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's just like something like I know I'm definitely in the space of neurodiverse. Yeah. No, there's like a little clock in your head that goes, this makes sense.

Yeah, it's like to the point where I like, I was heartbreak high and I was crying because I'm like, oh, this is me. And you see that like, it's Yeah, and it was such a good reminder. It's like why, like representation is so important. Because I'm like, oh, like, I've never seen like an autistic female character on screen before. And I was relating to a lot of it. And I was like, wow, like, this would have been so awesome to have growing up because I felt like I was going crazy. I love that.

I mean, like, do you I have ADHD? What in particular kind of triggered you to think you had attention deficit hyperactivity disorder? Yeah, I think. And like, I think a lot of my symptoms like overlap, like ADHD and autism and you know, all that fun stuff. But like, executive dysfunction, I've definitely got like, that a lot. Really? Yeah, I'm just like, like, time, I have a bad like habit, like, I can't process time. I feel like I don't, I never know when to leave.

I never know, like, I never get to places on time. Like I will, I will place things down and forget that they're there. And like, yeah, just like things like, like my Mikey, are you going to Mikey and Sydney? But like my Mikey card, I think I've lost like four Mikeys in one week before. Wow. So now to keep it like in the back of my phone case, just so like, it's there and I don't forget it. And it's like, yeah, like, I'll forget like meals. Like, just, you know, all the fun stuff.

Oh, my God. I got like, I have massive hyper fixations. I've had hyper, like really intense hyper fixations, like since I was a kid. Like that's my probably my big, like, this is probably me being neurodivergent. Yeah. And then like, I've just like, sensory issues and like social, social cues, like I struggle with a little bit and just like a whole, a whole like boatload of things. And I'm like, hmm, this is interesting.

Can I just say this makes you like, this is probably why I relate to you a lot. Just to like, oh yeah, you make total sense to me. Yeah, twinsies. Yeah, I like it, I think it's also interesting because I often say this about people with ADHD. We're very good at reading people. We don't actually miss that many social cues. Yeah, see, I am not. Really? No, like I, I have this thing like, especially around like romantic and like sexual stuff. Like I never, I can never understand those cues.

Like I just, over my head, never. Do you think you, do you think there's part of you that's a bit demi then? I think, I think it's like partly neurodiverse and partly like, I think I'm probably on the ACE spectrum. Like maybe demi, like it takes a lot for me to catch feelings. And I'm also so terrible at picking up when people are like putting out vibes. You and Em should have a field day.

Like. Yeah, it's like, I've had like, retroactively, I'm like, why did I think that that was not someone hitting on me? Like people would come up to me in bars and I would just have a conversation with them like, can I get your number? And I'm like, no, I don't want to give you my number. Like, well, I thought we were just having a chat. Like it's happened like, yeah. Like, and just, no, like I just, I can't read it. Like I just, I don't know. I don't know. It's like my brain just doesn't.

Yeah. It goes what? Yeah. It's like what? Like I just want to have a chat. Like I don't want to, like, I don't want this to go anywhere. I'm just like, I want to have a chat. Like I'm always down for a chat and nothing more. I love how wholesome that sounds. The best kind of guy. But like, it's actually so disappointing. I remember like the other day I was at a train stop and a guy came up to me and started chatting.

He actually asked me, like we were near a bar and he's like, have you been there before? And I was just like, oh my God, like, yeah, I've been there. Like they have really good cocktail jugs. And I was just chatting to him and he's like, do you want to go there with me now? And I'm like, oh, that's what that was. Like we weren't just like chatting. He was trying to flirt. And I was really disappointed because I was like, I just wanted to like, I'm always happy to chat.

I love how upfront that is. Oh yeah. I was like, maybe that's just like, not even a neurodivergent thing. Maybe that's just like, this guy was like very pushed. Like I was like, it was 1pm on a Wednesday and I'm like, I don't really want to go to a bar right now. Actually I don't know if you're from Melbourne or if people from Melbourne, like they will know it was, he asked about the Asian beer cafe. So like that was like the level. It was like 1pm on a Wednesday.

I don't even know I'm talking about this now, but it's like, it's been living in my head because I'm like, wow, I did not pick up. Oh my God. Yeah. I actually love that was a really awkward thing because wait, I'm going to tell the story. Can I tell you? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Go, go, go. I was like waiting for my friend. I was like sitting down and like this dude, like he came and sat next to me and he sat like really close to me.

And so I tried to move away from him, but because I was already sitting on like on the edge of the chair, I fell off. What? I'm like, Oh my God. And then so I sat back up on the chair and then like, I was like, ha, like I fell off. And he's like, yeah, that was funny. And I was like, yeah. And he's like, we literally talked for 10 minutes. And then I was like, this is fun.

And like, I was glad that he was, I was like, oh, he's chatting to me because like he's embarrassed that I like fell off the chair and he's trying to make it less awkward. But in actuality, he probably sat that close to me because he wanted to get my number. Wow. Oh my God. I think you're my new favorite person. Please tell me like, always feed me stories like this because that is incredible. I feel like I'm constantly in like that specific situation that happens to me all the time.

And like my response is just double down and be more embarrassing. You're like, Oh God. Oh no. Yeah. I was like, how can I make this like worse for me? I would just chat to this guy for 10 minutes. Like it's like, Oh my God. I'm going to use this weird story to wrap us up on a perfect note. It's a great note. Please promise me, write a short film based on your bad attempts. Maybe I would just like, yeah, start a blog and I'd be like, was this person hitting on me? Question.

Yeah. Yeah. Write a blog or write a few prose about it. Cause you know, it'll work. I'm sure people are very, very, very interested in my lack of love life. That's not true. I'm sure though. I'm sure they want to hear all about your romantic endeavours. All the juicy, juicy details, all the seats I've fallen off. Oh my God. Oh my God. Question for you next Alice is where on the internet can people stalk you? Where can they find you? Which is the perfect dating segue.

Yes. Okay. I don't really have a, I want Instagram, but it's like a private account, but like I will accept a follow. Cause as I said, I'm always down for a chat. So it's alice underscore underscore smiles. Love it. Yeah. And then go and go and stalk them, go and find them, follow and get a request, send the request off. I don't actually, I've only recently got a PR, um, like a private one. So I'm, I'm getting used to that. Like accepting people and not accepting people.

Like I did used to have a public, but then like you get like a million random people following you and it's like, yeah. And most of them were just like, yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. Literally. They're just like bots. And it's like, why are you here? I know. And so many of those bots would grab my friend's identities and I was like, what the fuck? So weird. Yeah. Oh, the internet. I know. Um, but thank you so much for joining me. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for having me.

I hope that wasn't too rambly. No, I loved it. I loved every second of it. I had a great time and I hope you didn't mind to the fact that Eddie, my little doggy is being like quite pedantic in the corner. So hopefully he wasn't too interrupty. No, he was wonderful. Um, but no, and if you want to go and check out more episodes of the things we do, you can check them out on Apple and Spotify. I'll be speaking with another guest next week and I'll speak to you all later. Goodbye. Let's all laugh!