Matt, I end every conversation with a question from my guest, Uhhuh, here's one you sent over. You said, I don't really pay attention to or care about cryptocurrency. Should I, and or when should I start paying attention? Hi everyone. Welcome to The Thing We Never Talk About, a podcast about personal finance for weirdos. My name is Tim Iseler.
I'm a certified financial planner and I run my own independent financial advisory business in Durham, nc, helping musicians, artists, and other people with weird jobs take control of their financial lives. You can learn more at Iselerfinancial.com, and if you have a question about money or personal finance, I'd love to hear from you. Please head over to Iseler financial.com/podcast to submit your question and I'll answer it in a future episode.
Today I am talking with musician Matt McCaughan, perhaps best known as the drummer for Bon Iver. But Matt has also played with tons of bands, big and small, both live and in the studio. And Matt is a local buddy of mine. He also lives in Durham and while we have toured together a handful of times, I know him primarily in a social context. He's a really nice guy, always very curious about learning new things, and I love whenever I get to spend time with him and his family.
So I really enjoyed this chance to learn more about Matt's story, how he thinks about his work and how to price it, and how he manages the ups and downs that come along with a musician's irregular income. I hope you enjoy this conversation with Matt McCaughan. Matt, thanks for being here. Thanks for coming to my house to record, which has never happened.
Sure. Glad to be here. Yeah, it's been too long.
It has been too long. What do you tell people you do for a living?
Musician.
If they dig deeper or if they want to go deeper. What do you say?
None of your business? No, usually the next question is either what instrument or what band, so usually I'll say, you know, drums, which is true. And then whatever band is the most active at the time. Or they often will say, have I heard of your band? You know? Yeah. And then depending on my assessment of them, I go into more or less detail. You know, if I feel like they would've heard of them or not heard of them, or if they're more local leaning.
What do you think is one of the most common things that people assume about either being a musician or being a drummer that is either kind of comical or off mark?
Gosh, that's a great question. Well, some of it I probably project, I'm actually curious if, if, when they ask a question, if they not know more than they're letting on, but if they understand it more than I think they do or what it means. But, I think a common misconception is people not understanding how kind of normal to a musician the day to day is. Whereas it might seem exotic or crazy or, you know, like tour life or, being in the studio and it's, it's great. It's awesome.
But there's so much waiting around and so much like little, little things that you do that aren't amazing. Setting up the stuff it's, I like it, but it's not like it's, to me it's not exotic or in all the waiting and the driving from one place to another place. I think a lot of times this scene is like this never ending road trip. And sometimes it can feel like that, but most of the time you get to the place you're going and then you're in a building all day.
And that can be awesome, or it can, you know, depending on your mood, not awesome, but it's so normal. It's the, it's the thing where, you talk to someone after a show and they're, a lot of times you'll get, like, Ooh, where are you headed next? And it's like, well, we're going to, a fantastic city like Milwaukee. And they're like, oh my gosh, that's so far. And it's like, yeah, but people live there too, and it's a plain city, you know?
I feel like that's one of the things that people don't even necessarily get wrong. I think it's just embellished in their head over the, the life.
Yeah. It reminds me of the, I don't know the name for this thing, but when somebody really like dreams of, you know, if only I had that vintage, convertible car, then I would finally be happy. And then you get it and like two weeks later it feels like the most normal thing. You're not, you're not excited anymore. It's just another thing that you have. And especially when people know that you're on a tour bus, and that's very exotic. Like, like the tour bus must be just a nonstop rolling party.
But the reality of living on top of potentially like 11 other people 24 hours a day, uhhuh, it stops being fun and becomes really tedious quickly. The
The Yep. The timing of your bathroom breaks and Yeah. Knowing that you're not gonna stop for a long time. And it's like, well I probably shouldn't have this late night Mexican food
Yeah. That late night rack of ribs, Oh man. I was on a tour once in Europe and we had a George Foreman grill and every night, whenever the bus would get rolling at like, let's say 1:00 AM or something, there would be a group of people who are like straight into that George Foreman grill. And in Europe, you have nice, nice cheeses and meats and butter and, and I indulged a few times, but like, I think.
I think there were people in that band who put on like 15 pounds in that two week tour just from eating George Foreman paninis at two in the morning.
Lots of cured meat.
Yeah. Yeah. Cured meat And Brie on a panini press. Matt, you and I know each other socially and we've worked together a little bit, but I don't know that much about your history. How did you get started in music?
The fairly traditional route, but there was, growing up, there was always music playing in the house. Eight tracks in the van, the family van. And the music playing started first with piano. I don't remember exactly how old I was, maybe around eight.
We sort of had a family rule where you, before you played anything, you had to play, take two years of piano lessons and then you could do, you could stop, not play any instrument, but if we were interested in another instrument, the piano had to be there first. But kind of from, I'm not gonna say as far back as I can remember, but I remember being very young and it was always the drummer that I would sort of fixate on and notice.
And it wasn't even at that point, like, someday I'm gonna play the drums. It was just, that's what drew me in. That's what interested me. And like if it was like a TV show or a cartoon, it was the drummer that was always my favorite character, like Animal. In the chipmunks...
which one's the drummer in the Chipmunks?
Theodore, ah, I had to go through the song. And yeah, I just was always drawn to the drums. And so when I was maybe 12, I was going into middle school and by that point I wanted to play the drums. And so I got a snare drum for Christmas and my parents put me in private lessons 'cause I was going to a new middle school the next year that had a, I was coming from a school that didn't have a band program to one that did.
So in order to get me caught up with the kids that had already that year been in band, they put me in private lessons. And then that sort of, that got me ready. And actually ahead kind of.
Was it always drum kit or did you do any like drum core stuff? Anything like that?
So it started snare and then that summer, I guess after six months of lessons, they realized that it was something that I was into. So I got a, a drum set for my birthday Tama swing star from the music loft. But yes, so it was school band, and then in high school I did marching band. I never did like DCI drum corps.
That stuff was always interesting to me and I liked how deep they went into rudimental drumming, but I also knew that I didn't have the same gusto that, that they did to spend my whole summer doing that. It's like I wanted to want that almost, but I just knew that every time I would go to some of the DCI things that would come through or had friends that did it, and they were always so gaunt and just like exhausted.
And so that sort of kept me from pursuing that more, but I definitely was interested in it and in some ways jealous of the, how deep they went into that sort of type of playing.
When did you start playing in bands of your own?
Middle school? Oh yeah. Yep. Some friends of mine and I had a band, UXB
Oh of course UXB.
Uxb, Unexploded Bomb out of Durham, north Carolina. And then that changed to the stick Men, but it was mostly the same members. And that was kind of all through high school. During high school I got much more into jazz and was in the jazz combo program, at my school. And then in college it was almost all jazz and not much like band playing unless it was jazz.
Not that I made it a hard and fast rule, that's just the way, that's kind of what I was into, and it was easy to do jazz gigs because you didn't have to rehearse. And so As a band you could just say, Hey, can you make it and can you make it? And everybody shows up and we all know the same songs.
So, yeah. We were studying music or drumming or were, was that just a a hobby?
No, I was a music major, a performance major, for percussion. So I did the symphonic stuff as well.
Mm-hmm. When did music become something that, if not like the primary source of income, like at least a source of income that was beyond a hobby?
Let's see, I guess around the late nineties. There wasn't one moment. My whole trajectory has always been sort of a slow transition from, starting with lessons and hobby and thing that I did, that I enjoyed, and then I just kept doing it more and more and it was, there was never a point where it was like, i'm gonna make this my job. Right. It was always like, I love doing this and so I'm just gonna do it however I can. Mm-hmm.
But then more opportunities started to come up to make money doing it. And then I guess in the late nineties, maybe around 96 or 97, that's when I started playing in my brother's band. Super Chunk is his main band, but Portastatic was like his side lab project kind of where he got to tinker around with whatever he wanted to do. And so I started playing with him around then, and that was sort of my first like being on a record that was on a label and doing a tour to support it.
That's kind of when that whole thing started. And then I joined some other bands like Rosebuds or the balance and local bands that would tour regionally and also around the country. So it was like maybe the early two thousands when I started to have less and less of a day job and more touring. Maybe around 2006 when I sort of had to... I did quit my day job.
And that was the first time I decided to do music, you know, I was like, okay, there's enough tours regularly that I'm either having to bail on work for, or having to tell, you know, say I can't do it or I can only do like the first half or, and so it was. There was enough activity where I felt like I could try it Yeah. Of just doing music, knowing that like none of the jobs that I had were career path for me jobs. You know, they were working at the mall or working at the hospital.
And so I was like, those jobs will be there if I need to fall back on that. So I guess it was, it was always a slow transition. I, and I think that's Im important is to, not try and necessarily force the career of music or really any career if, like, if it's something you already enjoy, I don't make it something you hate or that you resent because it's not doing something that you think it's supposed to.
Because the enjoyment of it is, I, I feel like an important I aspect of being successful if you enjoy doing it, I feel like that comes out in a creative, you know, realm or Yeah. Process.
At that time, were you conscious of changing anything or thinking about things differently because you didn't have that day job waiting for you when you got home? Like, did you change anything about what you were spending or how you were spending your time? Anything like that?
I wish I did. No, I did i, I know I got insurance and well, when I worked at duke Hospital, they provided the insurance and that was the last job I had before I quit. And so I don't know how long I went without insurance. It wasn't too long, but I remember having insurance and paying for insurance just for myself. And, other than that, I don't really remember. I, I contributed, I think every now and then because my dad would remind me to contribute to my iRA.
But it's, it's so hard to do that when you don't have a lot of cash in your bank, you know? Yeah. To then, like, it makes so much sense to do, but at the same time you'd need the money then.
Yeah. Yeah. It's a real Maslow's hierarchy thing where like, if you're in that bottom tier of I'm paying my rent and I'm buying my food, but not much else. Right. It's really hard to tighten the belt anymore.
Yeah. To, to think about 30 years down the road.
Yeah. Do you think, now that you're, whatever, 19 years down the road, is there anything you wish you had done differently?
I wish I would've understood credit cards more. Yeah.
Yeah?
The fee that you incur from not paying the whole thing all the way down every time. It's like, I, I understood it, I knew the concept, but man, in college, I just, I went on spring break and they get you to sign up for the credit card and give you a T-shirt, and I wanted the T-shirt.
Yeah.
And then it's like you get home and there's like, oh, a credit card. Oh, there's money on it already, you know? And then, you know, you get the bill and it's like, oh, I only have to, I don't have to pay the whole thing. And. It's like, it's like, even though I knew that I was doing it wrong, I was just stupid about it. So thankfully I never got into like insane trouble, but I wasted a lot of money going towards those fees, like paying for something that, didn't get me anything.
When do you think you understood that better?
Probably about when I quit and had to like, really stay on top of my, there wasn't a definite income coming in and, I cleared little by little I cleared the debt and part of it was I canceled cards. I didn't need as many cards as I had. I didn't have eight or anything, but I had like five. You know, And just would kind of pass them around, like, which one has the most this time. And that only helped me having that many led to more fees and spending.
'Cause it, it's like if you'd only have one or two, then you'd hit a wall at some point. Yeah. You're like, oh, there's no more money on this. Okay, I gotta figure this out. So just sort of, you know, it wasn't super quick, but I was able to like, cut 'em up, cancel 'em, and get rid of that. And then I sort of had learned my lesson by then.
Good. I don't know if I ever told you this, I know I told Justin this, but I actually met him when Bon Iver was doing their first UK tour and they were supporting iron and wine, who I was working for. And it was like probably within six months they were twice as big iron and wine and Right would never support anyone ever again. I wanna say that would've been maybe springtime 2008. How did you get involved with them?
So, I met Justin when he lived in Raleigh Uhhuh.
Uhhuh.
Having moved here with de Armand Edison, his, his guys, and at some point he was working with the Rosebuds to help them finish up a record. And I was playing with the Rosebuds, but my part on the record was done. He was helping them sort of like, I think in a producer role, a facilitator, if I understand, stand it correctly. But they were almost always a trio. So, Ivan, Kelly and then a drummer, which was often me. But they wanted to do a tour for this record with, a fuller band.
And so that included giorgio Angelini on bass and Justin on guitar. And so on that tour, Justin and I were roommates. Oh. And so that's kind of how we got to spend more time together. And then during that tour, he was working on the first record and finishing it up. And, you know, like we were listening to bounces in the car and stuff. And then he went back to Wisconsin. And I think on that tour we kind of knew it was, he was leaving Raleigh and going back.
Because he had already sort of laid some groundwork back in Eau Claire about getting a, a band together or whatever. So he went and put that trio together, Sean and Mikey, and, I think he did one or two tours solo first and then the trio. And then I joined, I think my first show with them was August, I think it was eight. 2008.
Wow.
yeah. I can't remember if it was eight or nine, but because they, I think he started touring in like January, 2007. But I'm not sure. Like those years kind of, I always get 'em mixed up.
I wish I had kept better records. I remember the tour, I remember the first show they did with Iron and Wine, which was in Glasgow, but I kept poor records. So there's a lot of those tours where I'm like, I don't know. We were in Germany. I don't remember where
I often have to just look in my phone photographs
Yeah. So, I completely was not crossing paths with that band after 2008 until much later, really until around the time I met Brad and then met you. But the band became very big and I think just like you were talking about, a lot of people sort of assumed that you have this exotic life, for a lot of people, a lot of musicians, they assume you're in this big band, you've got it made.
But what do you think are some of the pros and cons of that kind of a band versus like, either much smaller bus band or even a van band that people don't really know about?
Huh. I mean, I, I think a lot of the pros and cons maybe come more with the way the operation is run or personnel. I mean, with Bon it was always Justin's very good about, like like reading everyone's temperature on, on how they're doing and trying to accommodate. And he also, he's not a, a road dog, that's like, let's just get our sleeping bags and pull over, you know? The more you can sort of take into consideration everyone's comfort, the longer the tour feels better.
So, sorry, I think I'm getting away from your question, but if it's like just like solid family of people and everyone is, as much as they can be on equal footing, there's nothing kind of nothing to complain about. Except for things that happened to everybody, like oh, the flight is delayed, that's like nobody's fault, in the group, it's no one's poor planning or anything like it just happens.
Maybe some, some things between a, a larger or a smaller operation are just the ease of moving around with a smaller group, or like, you know, if you're in a van and you're just one van full of people, you can just kind of quickly decide where to eat or when to stop. As opposed to if you're two or three buses and six trucks, you don't have to worry about the trucks, but you do have to think about when they're getting there and when you have to travel with everybody else.
So that means that certain people, like the crews start their jobs so early in the morning, you don't necessarily have to get there right when they do. But you sort of, you all travel together in case something happens and everybody needs to get on one bus or something. So that's where some of the downtime comes in for the band where, you know, you are there at six but don't have to do anything until three in the afternoon. But I can't really complain about that. yeah.
It's hard to say because every, regardless of how big or small the, the project is, it can be super difficult or super easy in any situation. It's, you know, it's kind of just depends on all the details involved and how they're being accounted for.
I found that from the crew perspective, I had aspirations to work with bigger and bigger bands. But I found it a point that like the resume looked good and the money was good, but I found that I was basically spending all of my waking hours inside a venue. And especially when you get into arena tours, like you said, you're, you know, you might be loading in at 8:00 AM or something, and then, all the meals are on site and you never leave the arena and you never see the sunshine and stuff.
So that's like, not that it's wrong for anyone to want that, but that, I definitely found that as I was moving up in my career, that I was like, oh, I'm actually missing a lot of this stuff from the earlier part in my career.
Yeah, that's, yeah, that's where it kind of gets into sort of what we were talking about earlier where it's it's not a vacation, but I also love it.
Yeah.
But it's, it's kind of like anybody that loves their job, there's kind of everything about it, you either love it or you just know that you have to go through that to continue to, to do the work. So you can't even really complain, you know what I mean? With any, with any job, there's gonna be things that aren't as exciting as maybe the main part of the job in this case playing.
Like, packing up or packing the car, unloading the car at the end of the day with all this stuff from the studio, if I took a ton of drums or something, I don't love doing that, but it's, I can't leave the drums in the car. Yeah.
yeah. yeah.
And, I just spent all day playing in the studio. It's so, it's like, what, what do I have to complain about? It's just a, it's just part of it. It's a thing that's part of it. It comes with it.
Uhhuh, but you know, like going to the studio and you have to take your drums home and everything. Like there are people who do the fun part and still complain about the not fun part.
Yes. I think the people that have the shortest shelf life are the serial complainers there's some stuff that is definitely worth complaining about. But also there's some things where it's like, you don't need to say anything because it's like everybody knows that's a bummer. You know, like going back to the missed flight. Someone complaining about it and it's like, yeah, but we're here. Yeah. We're at the airport. We're checked in. Me, as the, the drummer can't do anything about it.
Yeah. So I'm gonna walk around or I'm gonna sit here and stare at my phone. You know, sometimes there's the, the people that are just like, ugh, I can't, you know, it's one thing to like let it out. But at a certain point you're just kind of like bringing everybody down and I think think the people that stick around the longest are the people that get that about say something if you need to or if you think it'll help.
But, just kind of read the room and you kinda have to constantly read the room. And I think that's one of the thirds is the hang.
Yeah.
There's like the two of three things that need to be there for it to be kinda worth doing is the music, the money, and the hang. And if two of those things are there, that'll keep you there for a long time.
Hmm. That's an interesting point. Have you done many projects or tours where the thing that wasn't there was the music?
Um,
you don't have to name any names.
No. Yeah. Yes. To answer your question, never for like a long time where I felt like I had to do it. It was either, you know, most likely for the hang, I can't think of a time when it was, I I didn't like the music, but the money was so good that I did it. I've definitely done some things like that are more of a maybe interesting at first, but it happened annually and like, it was like, okay, we're gonna do it again. And it was cool. And then at some point it was, okay, I've done this enough.
I know what it's like and it's fun, but I don't want to not like it or I don't want to not look forward to it because then I'm going to not really do a good job. Probably, and the money may be good, but that it's like, it's such a bummer to not enjoy doing a gig. Yeah. And so if I can choose to avoid that, I try to. Yeah.
Yeah. How do you decide now how much you charge?
Oh, this question, I have no idea.
Do you wait for someone to make an offer and then
I really prefer that. Yeah. Yeah, And I understand most people when they ask, they are giving me a chance to like name it, which is cool. A lot of times I don't know the budget, I don't know who else is involved, how many other people need to get paid. And if it's someone's putting together a recording thing with a bunch of my friends, that's the hang and I, sort of just, I hemm and haw a little bit, but it's like, I don't know, whatever everyone else is getting
Mm-hmm.
or for like a tour. Um. Same thing. It's like uh, whatever they're getting. I usually work with people I know already, so I'm not doing a lot of, I'm not getting a lot of cold calls. Yeah. Where I would feel maybe more, like I had to be more on top of that. So they'll usually come back with a, a number where it's like, well, how about this? And it's probably fine. like, My fear is that I'll name a price and they'll be like, we can't do that.
Yeah. And then it's like, okay, no, fine, I'll do for less. I'll do it for anything Right. Or. Or the opposite where it's like maybe the, the label's putting money behind it also, and it's, you know, i'll do it, for whatever. And then, come to find out oh, there was a ton of money. You know, I just want it to be the same as everybody else on the project. That's sort of my goal. Or ideal, if it's something I enjoy.
Yeah. Is there a bottom number? Like if someone said come to the session, we'll pay you, I don't know, I'd just make it up a hundred bucks. Is
I mean, it's, it really depends on, for one thing, like how far do I need to go? What's going on at home that I am missing, that I need to cover for How many days is it or how long will it take? You know, how much gear do I need to bring? So there's a lot of things that go into it. Also, a factor is how many more will there be, if it's like a one-off of someone, I don't know that i'll never see again, a hundred is definitely too low.
If it's a band that's like putting something together and it's like with friends and I'm digging the music and it's really rewarding. And it's like the first of many songs to be recorded or tracking days, just not sure when. Then it's like I might come back with them for like a total project number, like how much time will this be overall? Also, I would try and glean whether or not it means touring, which is more money.
It's, it's basically how much of a time investment a do I want, and if I do want, how much will I get back from that in sort of future earnings.
Yeah. You mentioned considering what's going on at home. Do you have a desire, like if another big thing came up, like a Bon where it's like big tours both in terms of the venues you're playing and the production, but also the time duration, like the album cycles, 18 months or something. Would you want that at this point? Or, or is it more like home life is better than that?
I mean, I definitely yes, I, I do want that. I mean, I like tour, I love touring like i, I noticed it, it was really highlighted during Covid, the lack of touring. That was the first time in a long time that I had just, there was not any, almost no music happening. Definitely no touring happening. And I realized how much my brain really likes the space that it gets on tour.
And then to come home to the everyday, like once I'm on tour for a while, then when I come home, it's really nice the day to day stuff. And. I've sort of had to, since I've been touring a lot less kind of relearn or like reteach my brain how to find those spaces at home. And it likes my brain, likes the mix up of like going away, sort of recalibrating to that, coming home, recalibrating to that. And so I would definitely, yeah, I would love to tour more.
That being said, again, I would have to be depend on the situation. If it were a band that needed a drummer for a few tours, that would be easier than like a band that's like, join this band. I would definitely like have to take a longer look at that.
Yeah.
'Cause I'm not interested in a road dog kinda situation of like, yeah, we're going out for three months straight, I don't need that.
When was the last time you did that kind of touring?
Well for the most part, bon Iver was always really on the low side of like, it was, it was of a time, duration, stress, uh, in that yeah. I think ideally it was like two to three weeks on and then a month or two off. Yeah.
Even when you started
it, it was definitely heavier, but it's, even then it was never. There was, I think two times when we were out for longer than four weeks. Uhhuh the whole time I was with them. Yeah. There may have been a few four weekers but it was, you know, we also don't do a show every single day. Yeah. So, definitely ready to come home, but it wasn't. I also like knowing that that's not the regular thing. It was fine. It wasn't like, oh, here we go again. You know?
I think if it were to be going back to your question about if I would tour again, I, I definitely would. And if it were to like sort of more be in the band, there would definitely be more things to take into account. Mm-hmm. As opposed to can you do this tour? Or drummer is sick or something. Yeah.
Yeah. Those long ones really change a person.
Right. And that's when you really have to be aware of the people around you and how your mood affects them and vice versa. Yeah.
What's something that you think you do really well in your personal finances?
Hmm. I don't think I do anything particularly well. I mean,
I mean,
i'm able to I guess, buckle down when I need to, but I I mean, I don't have good, like, for lack of a better term, record keeping habits. Mm-hmm. Like I wish I did or i'm terrible at spreadsheets. But that being said, touring less and just kind of doing less, I've definitely tightened the belt a little. And so I feel like i'm able to do that sort of change my habits Yeah. As needed. I don't know if that's necessarily, like a, a superpower or anything, but, or just a necessity,
yeah. Well, I mean, not everyone can do that. What are the mechanisms that you use to understand when that needs to happen? Do you do it preemptively where you're like, oh, I'm not working very much for the next few months? Or is it, or is it more like retrospectively of like, oh wow, my account's kind of low?
low? It's more, yeah, more, it's not that it's a, I'm surprised, but it is watching the account. Mm-hmm. And just sort of like, maybe wait longer to change heads than I normally would. Mm-hmm. Or, let my sticks get a little more chewed up or go back to an old pair of sticks I used to use, but I changed to a model I like better. So like putting off those kinds of purchases, basically double checking, do I need to get this,
Yeah.
More often than I maybe would if I was working more or that kind of thing.
Is there a number you have in mind when you're watching that account balance or is it more just sort of a feeling of like, Ooh, that that feels a little low.
It's more of a feeling there. There's not a No, there's not a number. I mean, I, we kind of know what we spend in a month. Yeah. And what money is coming in when, so there's not a specific number, but it's, if it's a, like a certain time in the month and it's at a level, but usually if it's, if it's like that, then we're already watching it, you know what I mean? We're already aware.
Not that we didn't pay any attention when I was working more often, but, we're just checking in more with the app. Yeah. The bank app.
That's the method that worked best for me. Even though I am very capable of building spreadsheets and tracking expenses, I kind of hate traditional budgeting. I've never been, yeah. Of like, this is how much I have to spend on, uh, eating out this week, you know, and, I've never been any good at that, but I have been pretty good at like, if my account is above this number, I'm okay. If it's below that number, I need to rethink some things.
Yeah. Absolutely. That's, that's kind of how we are exactly. Where it's like we should maybe not eat out or try eating out let only if it makes the most sense to eat out. Yeah. You know,
only if it's really, really fun
Only if it's really fun depending on who we're going with. No, but you know, sometimes it's just in the moment where it's like, I could start making dinner now, or we could just go out to eat, and then it's once you just go get an ingredient out, you've started making dinner and then it's like your mindset has switched. If I can just walk into the kitchen and take something out, even if I don't know what we're, if I just take a, a meat out of the freezer Yeah.
And start thawing it, then it's like, okay, well I gotta figure out what to do with this.
What's one thing you wish more musicians knew about money?
The whole sort of, which, if I'm not mistaken, this podcast is about, is just talking about it like if there was some kind of rubric or way to know how much you're gonna charge or to be able to give a number, but also convey but it doesn't have to be that, you know, that the person you're talking to will understand that and not try and take advantage of a situation or, but I, I mean, that's just dealing with people and money.
You know, I I don't know what conversations those would be other than well this is what I do or this is what I charge. And and I don't know that that goes that far to like solving that issue. Ah,
Uh, I think it would go far. I think there's just generally, you know, it's impolite to talk about money and, everybody kind of knows that, right? So everybody's got a little bit of a problem of don't talk about money. Right. But I think when it comes to music and the music world I know, which is indie rock, punk rock, so other genres I think are maybe a little more upfront about money, but like, if you're applying for a conventional job, the salary is usually advertised.
And so you have some idea, like if you're applying to be a whatever systems engineer, have some general general idea, whatever. Yeah. And in the indie and punk world, you're not ever supposed to talk about it. And so there's no reference for anything. I think it really quickly gets lumped in with, if you care about money, you're inauthentic or you're not doing art for the right reason, you know? Right. You're in, in music for the wrong reason if what you want is to make money.
But I can't think of anything else that everybody interacts with every single day that makes people so uncomfortable to talk about.
Yeah. Because you're either quote better than someone or worse than someone. Right. Depending on the number. Right. You know, or ahead or behind. And it's hard to, it seems like that's the thing that we need to get around is figure out is it are you ahead or behind? And if so, if the number is different, what's like a good reason for it being different between two people? Mm-hmm. You know, maybe there is a good reason and not just, well this person asked for this and you didn't yeah.
And it's like, that's fair. That's true. It's a true statement. But that's the thing you I'm trying to avoid. because like you're saying, I hate talking about it because it, it isn't about that. That's not why I am responding to the request of, can you do this recording? Or it's, I want to do it, but I also can't do it for free. Right. Unless there's other stipulations or, there's a reason to do it for free if it's a benefit or, the question is often phrased, well, how much do you need?
It's like, I wish I had an answer for that. Yeah. I wish I could say, this is how much money will fit perfectly in this situation. Yeah.
Do you have a good way of saying, I don't want to quote you a rate, but I want you to tell me what you think is fair.
I mean, generally it's some form of whatever everyone else is getting. Yeah. The other musicians. Because the situation I, I'm not a fan of I've never really enjoyed the, the idea of people who have been in the band longer get more money because of like, I see that, I get maybe trying to sort of weight it for the people who have been there the longest, but if you're just asking me to do this now it's not my fault I haven't been around longer,
yeah. yeah. Yeah.
and so i, I like, I appreciate the idea of rewarding loyalty, I guess. But at the same time, it doesn't seem as fair to me of like, you're doing the same job everyone else is, but you don't get paid as much because you didn't know about it. When I say whatever everyone else is getting, that's what I'm trying to avoid or suss out, is that what's going on? Not necessarily a deal breaker if it is. But, it's definitely less than ideal.
Yeah. I used to, when I had to quote people rates, I would always say, this is what I like to make. Let me know what you can do and if it's reasonable, we'll find the right number. Right. 'Cause I wanted to be clear what I expected or not even expected. Like, I will work with you, but I want you to have a reference for what my top dollar is right before we start negotiating.
Yeah. That I wish, I wish I had a top dollar number, but then it's like, well, am I just then starting a negotiation, which i, i, I don't like confrontation. Not that it has to be confrontational, but like. It's just, I don't, I don't want to talk about it in the first place. You know, I almost want to ask, what's the most you can pay me? And I understand that there are some times where someone will honestly say, I wish I could pay you more, but this is what we have and that's fine.
Yeah.
that feels great. yeah. And I realize some people can just say that even though they have more and whatever, you know, if I feel like I've, I got taken, then I won't do it again with them. Yeah. You know?
Yeah. I think it's rare that somebody will lie in that way.
Right. Because it's, I mostly work with people that I know and enjoy. Mm-hmm. And, so that would be a, a weird bridge to burn.
Yeah.
You know?
Matt, I end every conversation with a question from my guest, Uhhuh, here's one you sent over. You said, I don't really pay attention to or care about cryptocurrency. Should I, and or when should I start paying attention? I think the short answer is no, you don't have to worry about it. And I was thinking about this this morning about the right way to approach this, and I feel like there's always been financial opportunities that involve a lot of risk
uhhuh. uhhuh
You know, the term survivorship bias?
No,
it's, it, what it means is when you're talking about people who have succeeded, you're only hearing the stories of the people who made it. And lots of times that's because they're talented and lots of times that's because they were lucky. So like, we can look back on, the world of personal computing in the seventies and eighties, like that was a market that very few people believed in. Mm-hmm. But Apple computers believed in it, and Microsoft believed in it.
And you can look at those stories and say, ah, you would've been a genius to invest in Apple computer in 1986 or 1996 or whatever. But that's only because we know that it it worked. Right, right. And there's always been lots of opportunities that are high risk that might be completely transformative, but that doesn't mean that that's the only thing that would've been completely transformative.
And like another example, I thought this might be an appropriate example because people talk about cryptocurrency like it's an entirely new asset class. It's not an investment in the way that a tech company would be an investment. Right. It's just a completely different thing. People call Bitcoin, in particular, digital gold.
And if you think about like the gold rush in the history of the us, like there were a lot of people who went west looking for gold and some people became very rich and a lot of people didn't. Yeah. But then there's also all the people who like stayed back east and kept doing whatever they were doing and there were a lot of people that got very rich staying back east. Right. Doing the, Not doing gold. Not doing gold. Right.
So I think if you're not interested in cryptocurrency, I don't think you're gonna miss out. Even if it ends up being that it was a great idea and lots of people made lots of money.
Yeah. That's sort of why I was, it's one of those things where from everything I understand, it's just so highly volatile and like building a castle on sand where it's like, unless you hit it at the right time with some crazy spike and then get out with whatever you got from that spike. It's kind of like, it's just gonna go up and down.
And I was asking 'cause it just as more confirmation of what I think I understand about it in that i'm not missing out on learning about it cause it seems, it seems like there's a little bit of a learning curve involved with it other than just basic understanding of blockchain and how it, how it works. But it'd be great if I just didn't have to care about it or just didn't even have to think about it. You know, and, and I don't think about it, like I said, but I also don't want to not miss out.
But I don't want to, miss out, through ignorance. I don't mind missing out if I know what I'm missing.
Yeah. I don't know. I think, I think it's only appropriate for people who have a really high risk appetite and there, right, there are a lot of people like that. If your thing is just I want to dip my toe in, see if it works, if it doesn't work, okay, fine. Like there are ways to do that.
Like you could pick some amount of money that you feel is not super consequential and you could use like a platform like Coinbase, which is pretty easy to use you can try it, whatever, leave it, leave it there forever, see what happens. Right. If you just truly wanted to see, maybe I can put in a hundred dollars, get out a thousand dollars. Like you can do that.
But I also feel like there are always investments where you could put in a hundred dollars and get a thousand dollars that require a huge amount of risk taking, and if you're not up for that, it's just never gonna be right for you.
Yeah. That's sort of the vibe I get from it.
Yeah, I agree with that vibe. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think like somebody who's a retiree who needs that, their money to last them the rest of their lives, like it's just not appropriate to be investing in certain things. It, it's not appropriate for everyone to have this super high risk, high reward investment profile. Yeah.
Great. Good answer.
Yeah, the short answer is no, and then the long answer is everything else.
Great. I'll rewind it.
Cool. Well, thanks so much, Matt. I really appreciate you coming over bringing your microphones. I appreciate that.
Thanks for having me. Thanks for the coffee.
Yeah, you're welcome. I hope you liked it.
I did.
Cool. Alright. Did you enjoy that? I sure did. And I have to say, just like the name of this podcast, I've hung out with Matt a lot and we literally have never talked about any of this stuff. And I also want to thank Matt for suggesting that we record our conversation in person. He was kind enough to bring over his portable digital recorder and a couple of Sennheiser 4 21 mics, and I'm happy with how it turned out. Okay. That's it for today.
As always, if you have any questions about money or personal finance that you'd like answered in a future episode, please fire them my way by visiting iselerfinancial.com/podcast. And of course, Iseler is spelled I-S-E-L-E-R. All righty. Ready? It's disclosure time. The Thing We Never Talk About is for educational and entertainment purposes only. It's not legal, investment or tax advice. People on the show, including the host, may have interests for or against any investments discussed.
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