Welcome to the Therapist Connect podcast. Dr. Peter Blundell interviews therapists about their work and experiences in the therapy community.
Peter Blundell :Hello and welcome to the Therapists Connect podcast. My name is Dr. Peter Blundell and today I'm delighted to invite onto the programme Victoria Nelson. She's a psychotherapeutic TA Counsellor. She's also a deaf therapist and runs an organisation called Deaf4Deaf, which is a team of Deaf mental health counsellors, and psychotherapists from a variety of different backgrounds. They are passionate about deaf mental health, and and Victoria is a keen campaigner around this specific issue. And their aim is to help people receive counselling in their preferred communication style of choice. Hi, Victoria and welcome to the programme.
Victoria Nelson :Hello.
Peter Blundell :Hello.
Victoria Nelson :Can you hear me Okay?
Peter Blundell :Yeah, I can hear you absolutely fine.
Victoria Nelson :Okay, so is this going to be broadcast? This whole podcast.
Peter Blundell :But obviously I'm very aware that there does need to be some transcription of the podcasts. And so people who are deaf are able to access them. So we'll be doing that for each of the podcasts that are released. That's brilliant. Yeah. And so I just really appreciate you coming to do this. Thank you very much.
Victoria Nelson :Okay. Thank you for inviting me the first time I've ever done a podcast.
Peter Blundell :PYeah.
Victoria Nelson :Yeah. Obviously I am deaf. I'm not sure if anyone of you, I'm guessing everyone will be try to listen or something?
Peter Blundell :Well, I can understand you perfectly. Well, you're very clear in your speeches, no problem there. It's a whole new process that I'm learning myself. So
Victoria Nelson :Yeah, good. You're doing that good. Like it really good for me to read when they are transcribed to be able to read all the podcast, but obviously, I'm always asking people please transcribe or the podcaster that deaf therapists can gain access, So, so I'm pleased that you're trying transcribe everything so I’m looking forward to reading them all
Peter Blundell :And well, I think it's really important. And I think I know we'll come on to talk about this, but I think you've done a really good job, particularly on Twitter of highlighting the need actually and the accessibility for deaf people, not just deaf therapists, but deaf people in accessing all kinds of things, really. And I think it's a really important message to kind of get out there so people really understand and aren't kind of ignorant to these issues.
Victoria Nelson :Yeah. And the fact is that deaf people are across the whole spectrum, the BSL community who would need an interpreter and you've got the severely deaf, profoundly deaf, hearing aid wearers, cochlear implant who might want have captions in and transcribing. And so it's very important that you can give back what I tried to do with trying to increase the awareness across the whole spectrum of deafness . From partially deaf to totally deaf alsorts so . Yeah.
Peter Blundell :And I think there's so much nuance isn't there to the deaf community. There's so much difference out there in the deaf community, just like you were describing there. It's really important that people are aware that it affects people in lots of different ways.
Victoria Nelson :I agree, though, yeah. But we've been doing intend to campaign that increased awareness. As you know, there was a recent campaign about where is the interpreter. That was really important was The fact that deaf people missed out on or all the emergency announcements from the government. And when they did provide one it was like 15 minutes. And then it stopped, and so it was like a real clear disadvantage to the deaf community that we will get in very little information. So I really had to get on that campaign to support the BSL community, and also for myself, as well, lots of people who wear hearing aid because with that, BSL is a unique language and when you provide sign language you actually get the full picture. Right now I'm having to lip read with you and It’s a lot harder. I have to concentrate more and there's more processing and going on in my brain and I've been trying to work out with what you’re saying and also the captions are not very accurate. Sometimes So, when its BSL is is exactly full information in 3D , so, I think that's really important. Yeah, well, yes. Can you come a bit closer so I can lip read. , yeah.
Peter Blundell :Yeah. Is that better?
Victoria Nelson :Yeah thats better
Peter Blundell :great. So and yes, a really a lot of your questions are going to be about you as a therapist. Really, I wondered, I wondered, how did you come to be a therapist and what drew you to the profession in the first place?
Victoria Nelson :Okay, um, well, when I was when I was younger, I've got close family members who have mental health issues, and so I was exposed to, to the difficulty of accessing mental health services. But these were hearing members and they have severe issues like personality disorders. So I was quite exposed to all of that quite young and then myself i wanted some support to I was experiencing social ... discrimination difficulty, you know, in life itself, so I wanted to find a deaf therapist but couldn't find anyone. So I was in Australia and actually couldnt find anyone so I thought when I came back from Australia I decided I want to become a therapist. I wanted to support the deaf community and and then that's how I started really. I found the course and went to Metanoia Institute. And I`m met the head of the institute She is lovely, absolutely lovely and immediately yeah, this could become something she encouraged me to do TA 101 course. Learnt the I`m OK you’re OK. thought you're in that and that really opened my eyes. The whole what Berne taught. We're all okay. And that led me on to to do the masters course in psychotherapy its been a challenge. So if you want to talk about Yeah,
Peter Blundell :yeah, absolutely. I was wondering, I suppose about your training as a deaf therapist really because you've campaigned quite a lot around training for deaf therapists. So I wondered what your experience was like on on your training.
Victoria Nelson :So my training was difficult because its a four year course and couldnt get disabled students allowance which is allowance that helps me with communication support, because I do need communication support when it comes to groups because I was obviously in a group of 20 people and that was really difficult because I could lip read perhaps half the group and I couldn't lip read half because perhaps they had moustache, beard or wonky teeth or accents or kept moving their hands, so it was really difficult for two and a half years, I couldn't get DSA which is Disabled Students Allowance because it is a private training college and so the institute helped me fight for the student allowance, though. The first two and a half years I had to sit in the middle of the room. On my bum. And swivel around on my bum to lip read each member of the group as they were talking and also that didn't feel very good because I was down on the floor and if, on the tutors sometimes spoke too fast. They had difficult accents, so couldnt lip read, one tutor I couldn't lip read him at all for the whole weekend I was there it was really difficult. I persevered. I knew I had to do this, there was no other accessible courses. And then about two and a half years later, I finally got DSA and this meant that they were able to provide a transcriber, so it was like a Palantypist. And so I have a pen and paper and they would record what everyone is saying. So I would sit on the chair and relax. But this also meant some of the group struggled with a palantypist because they found it quite intrusive. So confidentiality issues, so I had to, we had to sort that out in group process also one transcriber got very upset with the material that was being discussed, and she had to leave the room and she didnt come back. So we got another transcriber so it really had to try and handle transcriber's feeling. And the group's feelings so it's really tricky. And it can be the discussion was around difference and that was hard to talk about my difference without without being, overtaking the whole group process but often it would and and that will lead to a lot of rich material and great discussion but I would find I was the ‘other’ all the time and that would be really hard to deal with. So when I finished the course I was so happy but it had been difficult but I had to go back and retake my fourth year because I couldn't do the dissertation year because my partner had epilepsy so I became his carer. I looked after him for a couple of years and then so I had To go back to Metanoia again. They provide me with an interpreter and that is amazing. That is fantastic. The group accepted her because she was also TA. She could do sign language so it was a really good year. So I think canopy or in that year is the way that thing. The interpreter plus myself, I'd grown up to learn a lot about the process, so yes. yeah.
Peter Blundell :I mean that's amazing. I just think how challenging a counselling and therapy courses anyway without the difficulties and the challenges that you faced and how you didn't get the almost the right support at the beginning and how that again was added to the impact of those those challenges that you faced really and I think it's amazing that you that you kind of persevered with that really and got through it.
Victoria Nelson :Well, with the help of some amazing team provided the training institute and my own therapist and I really without them, I think I would've just cracked. But they really and I am the only deaf person in the whole institute and also I joined some of the antiracism groups and learnt about being the other. So I felt as if I had some shared expereinces with some of the members at Metanoia, so that kind of helped me to keep going. So yeah. Its been a challenge
Peter Blundell :Yeah, absolutely. It sounds like it was a big challenge but you you persevered and you got through that and you qualified as a therapist.
Victoria Nelson :Well, I'm nearly accredited but I'm really looking forward to getting the finish and then yeah, we'll go forth.
Peter Blundell :Fantastic. So what's it been like? As your for your career so far?
Victoria Nelson :What's it been like? It has been very interesting because the first couple of few years I had with hearing clients because when I was doing my voluntary placement obviously there werent any deaf counselling services where I could do a placement so I had to work with hearing clients and I found that really difficult because at first I didnt think I could but then again my supervisors at the training institute were saying you can so I did and, then I was amazed at how well I was able to work with hearing people and I was quite shocked actually I think that would be healing in itself and so that was the first few years but I was aware that you know, I wasn't able to support deaf people so I then started find out why I could work once qualified as a psychotherapeutic counsellor, I managed to get a placement, paid work. But again, it was so infrequent, that it was like and I had to drive three hours to get to a client and three hours, an hour and a half, then get there. And then I'm exhausted from all the driving just to see one client. And I thought there must be a way around this. So I started to think perhaps I need to set up a deaf counselling service. So I, my partner had epilepsy and he got unwell so we lost an income. And so we both decided as that he was recovering slowly although he couldn't get out, as he was fitting so we had to slow everything down. So we set up a deaf counselling service. And I started to gather up a team of deaf therapists, with hearing therapists who can sign up to a high standard, and I started to talk with them, they said, what do you think about a deaf team and start working together and at first we were only hoping to be a private business so like privately funded. But then we set that up in June 2016. And then eventually word got out that the NHS wants to start using us, some of the local counselling services wanted to use us. And then, as it turned out, we grew from a team of six to twelve. And so and now we were really making progress in gaining funding for deaf clients to have therapy sessions, in most parts of England and Wales, but not only one part of Scotland so there is still a lot of work to do. But yeah, that's where my journey has gone. And I'm still working with hearing clients so I have still got that practice but also the business called Deaf4Deaf. And it's grown so I'm really amazed at the success of it. And let's hope it continues.
Peter Blundell :Yeah, it sounds brilliant work. And I know Do you see any clients face to face? Or is it all online for deaf or deaf?
Victoria Nelson :We offer both. But it's only a few therapists. It really depends on the client is close to the therapists, as I live in Surrey they come in to see me face to face and so we do offer that option if the therapist is in that local area. Yeah, but not that now. Obviously with the virus so it is all online right now.
Peter Blundell :Yeah, that's brilliant. It's fantastic. And you do such a great job on social media of raising the profile of, you know, deaf therapists and the deaf therapists community. I think that's fantastic. And if you if you had someone met someone who was kind of entering the therapy profession right now, is there any advice that you would give somebody now kind of coming into the profession, either as a therapist or as a deaf therapist?
Victoria Nelson :Well, you mean what advice I would give? To enter the profession of therapy? Right? Yeah. Okay. Um, it advice I would give you have to be very passionate. You have to be by dynamic. I think that to be engaging with people and debate, not to forget yourself, quite vulnerable aswell because you're going to be hearing the most valuable story of people's lives, maybe experiencing traumas might be hitting you inside. And you have to really take care of yourself, lots of self care, lots of supervisions, make sure that you've got a good team of people around you to support you. It is a wonderful profession. But challenging because you have to do a lot of internal work, you start there to become a good therapist to have empathy with the other. And But yeah, I really recommend it to anyone. And for deaf therapists, do not give up my main thing to do and not give up, I have met one today who is a trainee and that completed report. And he's done talking about funding, about not having anyone to share the experiences with and but yeah, I said to him simply to keep going. And I think that the funding for disabled students allowance needs to be changed because at the moment they won't fund for diploma courses. But there were only funds for masters courses And that needs to be challenged. So I think that is disgraceful really, though, , , I all therapists should really rise to that challenge because that is really not fair at all.
Peter Blundell :Yeah. And the need is there. So it shouldn't really matter what levels that you are studying what needs to be put in place to people
Victoria Nelson :and that's to do with also it's very difficult the application process for DSA, you know, it takes months, some things in place like equipment, support, communicating. You really really it's a long struggle. So I just think that's really unfair so many students want to enter any courses diploma courses that cannot get DSA. But I know there's been so many deaf people wanting to train in counselling. Often I tell them, please go to your local colleagues and ask for, like an interpreter to help you. And they often the college often say sorry we can't get funding so no. So they've got nowhere to go. And really such a lack, of course, is available for that. I'm looking to do perhaps next year, in setting up counselling courses for deaf people in the future.
Peter Blundell :I imagine there is a there is a big need for that. Oh, yeah. I'm really, really accessible courses. Yeah. I mean, we've talked about quite quite a lot of these already. But what do you think of the rewards and the challenge that you've had as a therapist kind of since you've been qualified.
Victoria Nelson :Had lots of challenges, havent I? Interestingly, I wanted to share this with everyone. Um, few days ago, I had a dream. And the dream was I was involved with the therapeutic community. And it was like meeting all these therapists. And they're all coming up to me and saying hello chatting and everything. And I thought, wow, is it something happening on my unconscious, where I'm starting to belong? Because, and I think for a long time, I never thought I could belong. But that was the challenge always feeling on the outside always being the only one and the other. Somehow, the last few years, I thought it'd feel more to belong started to connect to people and I think that's also thanks to you, Peter, because you set up the therapists connect hashtag. And that really helped me to connect with lots of people. So I think, yeah, so that's been rewarding, but I'm starting to belong and also Metanoia Insitute for helping me belong. Thats a reward. And the challenge for me to make sure that I do belong, and keep along and keep putting myself out there keep voicing out the difficulty. You know, I think the challenge will always be there, but bring it on, I'll keep going.
Peter Blundell :And I think I think you've evidence that you have such determination, I think really to when you set your mind to something Like I think I've seen that just from the little bit I know of you from social media, I think is the level of determination that you have, which I think is great.
Victoria Nelson :Yeah, I think I call it I don't know if you know, TA, but no passivity, passivity, doing nothing, or agitation or over adaptation. And I've done a lot of that, where we're not just adapting to what other people want or doing nothing or getting agitated, an idea that the only thing to do is turn it into action and do something about it. And I think if you look at Steiner, his equation about alienation. And he thought the only way to get out of being Out of alienation, Is through having contact with people like yourself, and demystification so that all those mystifying messages I received and challenging those, And being angry went through. And now action. So I'm all for determination. Yeah. People support me as well. I'm not alone, though with what's happening now.
Peter Blundell :And I think that's really important, actually, that and the support needs to be out there and the therapist connect community I hope will kind of support you and kind of encourage those campaigns that are happening right now. And because I think it's really important that we collectively act you know, it's not should just not be down to you, it should be all of us that come together to make sure that the changes do happen.
Victoria Nelson :Definitely, I know a lot, a lot making sure that more deaf people have access to courses and to resources it, you know, come from the top. It's BACP, UKCP, although membership bodies they need to be aware and increase access. So making sure that everything is transcribed through perhaps bringing BSL interpreters. And but they paid for it. So before, you know, everyone worked together to increase access. And so yeah, I'm hoping that will happen in next few years. Fingers crossed, that at the moment with Black Lives Matter it is really important that we acknowledge the disproportionate number of therapists, black therapists, POC, Asian therapists that are not in our profession. And we have to, we have to acknowledge that and not deny it. And I think that really, by becoming more we all connect by listening to each other's stories thats how we connect and understand and what everyone is everyone experiencing and share resources and take a responsibility as a profession to make sure that we're more inclusive, more diverse. And be aware of the discrimination in place. Yeah, a lot of things we can do. And I
Peter Blundell :think that goes back to what you were saying before, which is it's about action. We have to actually physically do something about it and not just talk about it.
Victoria Nelson :The elephant in the room, you know, you've really call it bring it out, call it talk about it.
Peter Blundell :Even when those conversations are uncomfortable
Victoria Nelson :Very uncomfortable and I've seen when I was in training, you know, we talked about racism, we talked about colourism, we took that classism, so that you know ableism all about so uncomfortable and important, so important. And it that is something that leads to happen all the time that we have a consciousness raising awareness. And I think that it, though, that's how we become connected to people.
Peter Blundell :Yeah, I think you've put that that very well actually. And what's next for you then now what's next for you going forward?
Victoria Nelson :What plans? Yeah no yeah I'm trying to think turn. We've thought about issues around deaf therapy because some of the funding panels in the country in the UK Will not fund deaf therapy, and that because they were only used interpreted therapy so we have an interpreter with the hearing counsellor. But I am always trying to campaign. For deaf therapy because that means that one to one, just like me, you know, and I think because it's so important that deaf people face the direct therapy rather than interpreted because I think having an interpreter in the room breaks up that relationship. Now, I'm not saying it, it doesn't work it can work for some deaf people and I get that and I get that but other people of different languages. They might be happy, but I just think that deaf people should have that choice, they should have a choice. And I think that that really ongoing campaign really, or making sure the NHS understand that if a deaf person might want deaf therapy let them have the choice you hearing people have so many choice. We don't. That has to change. So, that what that does I believe that to keep going that's what I've been doing for the past four years. And last year there were two deaf men that walked from the north of Scotland down to Lands End and raised 60,000 pounds, for deaf mental health organisations and deaf4deaf got 30,000 from that and it was all, but we put it towards a charity called the Royal Association for The Deaf they created a BSL helpline so that deaf people can talk to someone online through live chat. That would be a great service that being provided. But the fact is all the people had to campaign. And because they know that we weren't getting the choice. There are deaf services like ourselves available but local funding boards prefer to use the local services with a hearing counsellor and interpreter, which can cost a lot more. So anyway you can see where I`m getting. So that's something we are actively campaigning and may campaign, as well as other things like counselling courses doing group work, we're going to start doing group work therapy sessions. I think they'd like to things in the future quite excited really. Yeah, lots of things for the future who, with all your support?
Peter Blundell :Well, I was just about to say anything that we can do with therapists connect to help out and support any of that we certainly will do and for people who are interested Deaf4Deaf is your organisation, isn't it? And we can put a link up to that on our website as well. And to make sure that people can have access to that, and that they know about it. And but we'll make sure that we support you in all of the campaign work that you're doing, which I think is fantastic.
Victoria Nelson :Thank you very much, and really pleased
Peter Blundell :You are very welcome. Thank you for doing this.
Victoria Nelson :Thank you very much. It's an interesting podcast. I hope you see the transcript to share with the deaf community.
Peter Blundell :Yeah, absolutely. I promise I'll do it as quick as I can for you. Thank you.
Victoria Nelson :Bye bye.
Opening :Thank you for listening to the therapists connect podcast. Go To www.therapists-connect.com For more discussions and debates. Transcribed by https://otter.ai s. Transcribed by https://otter.ai