Welcome to the Therapist Connect podcast. Dr. Peter Blundell, interviews therapists about their work and experiences in the therapy community.
Peter Blundell :Hello, and welcome to this episode of the therapist Connect podcast. My name is Dr. Peter Blundell. And today I'm interviewing Faisal Mahmoud, who is an individual and group psychotherapist. He is also a lecturer at Newman University in Birmingham and teaches on their undergraduate and master's programmes is also a group psychotherapist and has a interest and practising Gestalt therapy. Hello, how you doing?
Faisal Mahmood :I`m Okay.
Peter Blundell :I mean, the first question I mean, I've asked everybody this because I think lots of people find it very interest interesting to kind of understand what motivated you to kind of become a therapist in the first place. I'm kind of led you to this career.
Faisal Mahmood :It's a it's a long Long story, Peter. It's a it's a. I think I think growing up I think my father really wanted me to be some type of Doctor really, which is, you know, probably not surprising coming to an agent background. I had no interest. I had some very personal experience of being very close to someone who us with very severe mental health issues. I think she was diagnosed at that type of bipolar mood disorder, but quite with very severe symptoms, maybe for me, I was quite young at that time, probably 17/18 and had an experience of spending some time very closely with someone that I became really interested in in trying to understand what happens in mind and understand what's really going on how to make sense of somebody who's who feels so energetic one week and so low next week that was and I at that point decided to do my undergraduate and when I say to Master's in psychology i have to say i think that that was I found that rather boring to much stats and much of it was very CBT focused as more psychology degrees are and did some work at that time in you know, assisted some people when a shadow or system calls and you know, some psychologists that stuff didn't really enjoy and then decide then decided that I need to do more. I attended some short courses at that point. This is this is talking to late 90s but something in person centre did something one on one TA at that time and then then at that point I have to say I must have read this or something about Gestalt during my master's just a word. And I didn't like it because I didn't know how to pronounce it. So I just left it. This is this is not for me. And a TA and person centred sounded more attractive because it was easy to at least pronounce but I just ended up going to Gestalt Institute in London style centre and decided to do the the one year it all stays I think there used to be one year long Certificate course in still running something similar. I just absolutely fall in love with Gestalt at that point. Absolutely. And this is my longest love for anything. Like nearly 35 years.
Peter Blundell :What was it about Gestalt that appeal to you?
Faisal Mahmood :I was born Saudi Arabia and the left many early years of my life there. And then I spent some time in in Pakistan. And then I came here. Part of my family was here, but I wasn't here so I can join my family and, and as something that I found about Gestalt, it seemed very, this felt very natural. And the reason I mentioned about my history and being born in that there is a certain directness that I felt more comfortable with. Another and I make reference to the cultural backgrounds because there's certain attraction coming from those living in different parts of the world and growing up in different parts of the world is some attraction to that directness, partly, I guess partly because growing up in a country Which wasn't the home country of your parents. So there is there is a there is. So you kind of miss the subtext because you, I'm not Arab. And, and, and then living few years in Pakistan, even if my parents originally were from Pakistan, I was always kind of seen or treated as a foreigner. So, and then again, trying to get my head around the subtext of even basic linguistic level. So that has and then coming and living here, which is a completely different culture. So that was something that attractive mean that, that I perhaps don't need to worry too much about the subtext because there's enough directness that I don't need to make sense of something which is not being said yet. Okay. And I really love the quote. Gestalt is a therapy is obvious. So and I love that attractively I don't I don't need to understand two complexities of the cultural and linguistic backgrounds. So that's that's the attraction and dedication is still there.
Peter Blundell :But that's really interesting and a notice as well like so obviously you you fell in love with Gestalt, but I noticed that you have trained in like a variety of other approaches as well kind of like CBT and some of the things that I noticed kind of on your profile so do you still consider yourself a Gestalt therapist or do you you can be an integrative what's your what's your kind of therapeutic approach to describe that?
Faisal Mahmood :That's interesting question, I think, I live kind of a double life. During my training, I started working in addiction services in my first placement, and much of the addiction counselling services. very heavily CBT based motivational interviewing based on those kind of, I believe that sometimes that's probably very useful interventions to make So then then, maybe, but at 10 years, I predominantly worked incorporating CBT as a kind of the, the kind of very figural intervention styles. And so I kind of kind of sits somewhere more comfortably that I am a Gestalt therapist at the core, and that's what defines my core as a therapist. And I also incorporate some concepts from other other modalities. So I think the best way to describe this is a digital based integrative therapist.
Peter Blundell :Yeah. Okay. And so it's interesting. So you you did some work in addiction services. So can you talk about the rest of your career like kind of where did you kind of move on from there,
Faisal Mahmood :placement from addiction and actually getting a job in a different service as a counsellor This was in London I used to live in London and then maybe but how long it is now I can't remember 2005 whatever that is moved to Birmingham and then continue to work in addiction services. I was working as a hospital counsellor at that time. So in terms of job wise have worked about nearly 10 years in addiction services. Alongside I was doing some teaching or training alongside my main job mainly as a visiting lecturer or part time tutor. started teaching in London, one of the colleges in East London and then then then moved here started Birmingham University and then the been the whole programme moved to two Newman University and about now six years Five years ago, I left my addiction career completely I was moved to more management. In the last five years of my work, another very few clients, I was mainly managing services. And I think I probably got bored of management. So the work and move to full time or working as a senior lecturer, so for the last five years of working full time at Newman as a senior lecturer in counselling and psychotherapy, and I had to now postgraduate programme masters in counselling, psychotherapy
Peter Blundell :fantastic,
Faisal Mahmood :but alongside my private practice, I mean, I have still a small private practice in Santee Norman I live. So some clients and some supervisees. Yeah.
Peter Blundell :How to find them? Because I've had this transition over the last couple of years of moving into teaching, counselling and psychotherapy. How does that fare next to being a practising therapist then do you find like, it's a good combinations that did the two long alongside each other.
Faisal Mahmood :Yeah, I think it's absolutely essential, really, I really don't think you can really be the role of a trainer in this profession unless you are doing your clinical practice its fine if people want to decide to take some breaks, but in essence by default, I think it created support to different levels. He created supports, both by clinical practice because I'm reading more I'm, you know, you know, constantly trying to keep up with new new new material, and also supports my teaching, using my clinical experiences and expertise. And I think, a personal level you know, I think it kind of keeps it keeps it interesting in what things I do because i probably would get bored if I'm only doing one kind of thing, you know, Monday to Friday. So having an element of you know, teaching and practice also keeps me quite interesting in the profession.
Peter Blundell :Yeah. Now I can relate to that because I I find a variety of kind of doing teaching and being in practice it's it's it just keep you motivated and it's an it's a very interesting week you're not just the normal nine to five as it
Faisal Mahmood :is I mean if you if you enjoy teaching have this kind of a profession it's as you I know you do it's it's a remarkable profession. Yeah. But thoroughly enjoy working with my students that's completely different relationship we human beings and I really like that part.
Peter Blundell :Yeah, yeah. I also nopticed on your profile that you also did was you still do this now but you have done some great work with Gestalt therapy as well. Is that something you still do now? Or, or?
Faisal Mahmood :Yes. Absolutely, you know, that's my, you know, absolutely passionate about groups, that's a group so the best thing ever, and if people haven't tried it a strongly encourage it, it's absolutely great. And I'm so passionate about group work. And my, my, I just kind of quickly the background, I originally was trained in late 90s and early late 90 early 2000. At that time, I did my diploma in counselling, in Gestalt and then and then at that point I left and I, you know, started working as a practitioner and all of this stuff, and then I decided to go back and because I think I felt that I i there was there's something I had a sense of yearning to do to learn more about Gestalt and then went back and did a postgraduate training in masters and, and and at that point I wasn't aware have to see when I went back to control centre Of The Day the postgraduate training included both individual psychotherapy and group psychotherapy. So we were trained both in individual and group, and they have really worked in a group works. And I mean, I came from a background growing up as a young, young child feeling pathologically shy person, you know?
Peter Blundell :Yeah, I
Faisal Mahmood :I would find it very difficult in a member my early school days that I would do that standing up and speaking up in a group but absolutely impossible. So my early experiences of it within the counselling settings, that group and trying to figure that out, and I think I've made a huge transition over the years, and then absolutely loved it. I find working with groups really deeply fulfilling, you know, and I still do that. I mean, I did some training last year. Here we are with a colleague in Sheffield and we had a plan to do a couple of day weekends in Birmingham but because of coronavirus situations we just post everything and party group speak to i think i think i have some concerns about the many people who many, many practitioners, counsellors, psychotherapists, they they kind of tried to use their individual counselling skills or theory set to the group work if they engage in a group where I think when it comes to the individual counselling skills, like listening and paraphrasing, and both kind of, you know, open ended question, it's fine. You can of course, use those skills any in that context, but I think there is a bit of a lack of domestic training or lack of understanding about the group work is slightly different in each have a slightly different set of conceptualising. Yeah, the problem I've noticed that most people they use hotseat model, what it is that they do some kind of a one to one work in a group setting. So the leader or facilitator would engage with one person and then other members did the observers get made give feedback. To some extent, that's fine. But that's I personally would you would see that as that should be lesser of the work in the group. So see, I'm so passionate about groups I haven't forgotten about your question, and I just started my speech about groups.
Peter Blundell :That's okay. That's what I was asking about because I was really interested in kind of what Gestalt group work involves really, and and and how what you get what you enjoy with it. So you've given quite a good overview of that really. So obviously, do what a lot of work with students So one of my questions is going to be about any advice that you might be able to give to any students who might be trainees and might be listening to this about if they want to enter into the therapy profession? What What advice would you be able to give? Somebody was thinking about that next step in their career?
Faisal Mahmood :That's a difficult question, Peter. I mean, I would say a few things, what I would like people to consider. One is that I think it's so important, I must start from this. That counselling or psychotherapy is not a mainstream profession in this country. And to be honest, it's a sad thing to say I don't see things changing for many years to come. So so they need to consider before they decide that this is the profession because this is this is not a mainstream profession, like teaching or nursing or you know, and so it's it remains a largely a part time profession. Even if that's very difficult and very competative. It is mainly a profession where people rely on private practice. And that is itself a challenge that doesn't suit everyone requires a lot of kind of additional things for people to worry about and think and consider the implications of that. And so I think that's the one thing they need to think that their motivation that is why they want to be trained as a counsellor. The second thing is that sometimes I hear well, more than sometimes that people would say that, you know, I think we're really good listener. And, and a lot of my family members or my friends, they always come and talk to me. I think this is brilliant, but then making that transition into becoming a professional counsellor, psychotherapists, they need to consider that. That's why just why they're trained to be a psychotherapist because you're good at something. You may make really good cakes, but you really want to then be I'm a professional chef, for example. So to consider those implications in some ways, then the thing is, I think I strongly encourage the people before they even apply for any professional trainings if they can, and, and I would strongly encourage people to do this, to do some kind of, in some kind of experience in some in some setting where they can either in a support worker role or or some kind of support role, where they engage with other people in some kind of supportive in role so where people are in some kind of emotional distressing situation, and they spend some time have a sense of that, how does it feel when people are sitting there talking about their life problems, you know, do I jump in too quickly, and then have that embodied sense of that? And then once you've done those kind of things, then I think it's a it's Yeah, it's a it's a brilliant I mean, the thing is, you personally would agree with me on this, that counselling, psychotherapy is not just a profession as such, it almost becomes a you know, your way of living.
Peter Blundell :Yeah. Yeah.
Faisal Mahmood :I mean, it's not something we just leave it when we enter the, you know, when we leave the workplace or leave a therapy room. There is a huge part of that, that stays with you as a person. And I think that is a great attraction. That is not just a professional journey. It's a personal journey, too. And I think, I think if somebody is interested in that, and they have thought through implications that the job market situation, if they're still interested, I think I think encourage people do. Yeah, quite engaged. Do they do your research I would say where they want to go and visit the place, meet up with if they can with one or two staff members have a sense of a feel
Peter Blundell :I think that's really, I think that's really good advice. And I think what you're describing there is, is really thinking through and getting the information that you need before you take that step up before going on to the course and entering into that training and checking that actually, this is something do want to do as a career and that you are going to be passionate about and you are willing, as opposed to engage with the level of self reflection as well. But it takes to kind of do that training and kind of come out the other side really and I think yeah, I think I think any trainee it'd be it'd be good to take that on board I think. So, what what have been the rewards of your career so far? Do you think what are the things that you found most rewarding in the work that you've done? either as a as a as a therapist or as a lecturer as well? I suppose.
Faisal Mahmood :I start from the from the from the phone as a therapist. response to that. We have to say that has been some moments and experiences working with clients over the years that I felt so deeply touched and so deeply moved. And, and that I don't think any other profession would have offered me that experience. And I think that's, that's quite rewarding. Teaching I absolutely love the the that those moments of transitions where there are, you know, when when I see this students or trainees they, they try to grapple with something and you trying to support them to make sense of something. And then the moment comes and the AHA and those kind of moments, they're really kind of rewarding. I think I have to say, really those kind of moments are the moments that kind of keep me going in this profession for the as therapist and trainer I probably would stop one or the other or both. When when I when I stopped experiencing those aha moments.
Peter Blundell :Yeah. Yeah. I know, they're so important, aren't they? And they're, and well, it's like you were saying before, it's so deeply impactful to us, even though it's happening to somebody else, but being there alongside somebody, whilst that's happening is is a privilege really is a privilege to be able to be there. While that's happening, I think. Mm hmm. And so there's some of the rewards. What about some of the challenges that you've faced then in your career? What are some of the the difficulties that maybe you've had?
Faisal Mahmood :I think, I think the challenges in terms of the wider challenges as a trainer because we are part of university Pause it as you are to admitted that there are certain challenges the learning of counselling, psychotherapy programmes within higher education settings. You know, the custom psychotherapy programmes largely in this country, they are not attractive programmes for many Institute's because they don't generate the similar kind of income. If I sit now, that's that's one challenge. The second challenge is that's naturally the constant psychotherapy training doesn't fit the natural higher education settings. And in terms of modules in terms of assessments and credits, and how do you quantify that somebody's you know, really engaging in a PD group and somebody writing a really great piece of essay, you know, from from from when you try to quantify these things for you, but within the university structure, they might have a similar value, but we know kind of qualitative level. They're very different. I mean, I have to say say that my experience is really where I am, you know, there's a greater level of flexibility because they were traditionally there were Teachers Training Institute too, they always had, you know, greater understanding of professional trainings, but at the same time those challenges remain a challenge for the profession. And then I have a concern I have to say that I think, I think Unless Unless Unless counselling or psychotherapy courses are well supported by those, you know, bodies of, you know, BACP or UKCP , your BPC, your NCS and , if I missed any but both bodies unless they really support those courses, I think I think it will become more and more difficult for counselling or psychotherapy courses to survive and to stay within higher education sector. Because I think because you are, the level of scrutiny is or level of accountability is Is, is on two sides, one from the higher education quality assurance point of view. And then from the accrediting bodies point of view. So you've kind of tried to meet two very demanding set of requirements. So there has to be some kind of coordination between accrediting bodies and higher education Institute's so they can combine those processes together. And I I hear that some of the other professions have managed to do that nursing, for example, the external accrediting bodies and Institute's they have agreed, and a common and i think i think counselling psychotherapy needs to do something similar, otherwise is too demanding. Yeah,
Peter Blundell :unless there's a lot of conflict. There is a lot of kind of miscommunication where two different kind of systems can come together. And that's it. Yeah. I mean, that's a really, really good point. And one of the things I don't know when we spoke last time, and I think you mentioned that you kind of wants to talk about and it was around the some of the muthsy or misunderstandings that some students might have when they're coming on a counselling and psychotherapy course and I don't know if there was something you kind of wanted to talk about this issue
Faisal Mahmood :I think not necessarily trainees i think i think i've seen very, very experienced people have the similar kind of views. And yeah, I think one of the classic one I see because we we offer integrative courses. So of course, people who talk about CBT, psychodynamic and humanistic concepts, what what often I've seen, somebody would say that all I asked my client, how are they feeling? So I did two person centred counselling. I asked them, you know, tell me about their childhood or something. So I was doing psychodynamic counselling. And then I asked this question, so what would you like to change in your life? So I was doing some CBT but there's this really, you know, Deep misconceptions about that anything about past has to do with psychodynamic approach, anything you're asking about here and now it must be just all a person centred and anything about futures is CBT I think that's really nonsense way of kind of understanding coming all approaches see they can only function and they do function in here and now, even if you like to dynamic co CBT or person centred recall that you can only do your work in the head and now even the classroom countertransference and even if you make links with the past, the work is happening in the therapy room. So all therapists they can only function in in in in the present moment. And all therapists are equally interested in the past experiences. They might have a slightly different lens to use. And that person centred therapists or Gestalt therapists would be eating be interested in what happened, you know, either been harder to get into to internalise some external values and so and so is CBT the concept of core beliefs and you know what, what, you know, how did they develop and often in order learning principles, how did you learn growing up? So and all therapists ultimately trying to help clients to to to live more effectively in the future? So I think that's one of the kind of classic misconception that you know psychodynamic = past, person centred/Gestalt = present, CBT= future. And I think partly because to some extent, I think it's probably lack of understanding, lack of good quality training, combination of those kind of things and, and not being challenged in perhaps in the supervision in some ways kind of develops or all the content Simply reconfirmed the most misconceptions. So that's the one plus one. And I think if any, anything else that might come up, you know, if we carry on
Peter Blundell :Yeah, no, that's fine. No, I think I think that's another thing that was kind of briefly what you were mentioning last time we last time we spoke, and I know that you wanted to cover it. So I just thought I'd bring that up. And I think it's definitely a valid point. I think it moving on, and I think it would be kind of remiss of us live in this discussion if we didn't talk about this particular topic. And obviously, the the recent death of George Floyd and the Black Lives Matter movement, which, you know, as we're recording this, it's it's the kind of very predominant at this moment in time. And I suppose I was really interested in your thoughts really about what you think the impact of that will be kind of on the on the on the therapist community?
Faisal Mahmood :Yeah, I mean, perhaps start from my personal case, I am. I mean, I'm deeply kind of moved from the so deeply angry and deeply sad and frightened kind of move between these places. I mean, personally, as a, as an Asian Muslim therapist, a something that is very close to me in my own experiences, you know, we know that the history we know the situation without and Islamophobia in the recent times and and of course, within the context of the terrorism. There's something that lived experience to mean not lived experience just as a person but as a father, you know, worried about, you know, my own safety and so that's something very much something goes to the core of me as a person. It's it's extremely worrying situation, that, it's it's interesting that I remember growing up reading or watching movies about Second World War and thinking that how on earth world allow this this one person or a group of people to kill 6 million Jews, I mean, what was going on, you know how on earth one could do something like this and thinking that this is perhaps something that used to happen in the past, but guess what, no, it's not, you know, it's happening right this very moment. It's in a different form. And, and, and actually, I see a lot of similarities between 2020 and 1920. You know, it says that it's we almost repeating the cycle after hundred years. And who knows that there will be another world war of that kind with millions of people dying in that. The impact that come into the more specific discussion about the counselling psychotherapy profession. And I think partly feel that I feel some reassurances and feel reassured that there are some more voices than then than ever before. I would say my experience, at least in my circle, that people are talking about these issues, and the social media people writing a paper or people doing blogs, you know, that's it's, that's more to optimistic space to some extent, but largely due to the problem is that it's, it's, it's it has become the whole discussion about diversity and issues of difference. It has, over the years as you know, pretty much a tokenistic concept that many courses they would add a tagline with their within their assignment or one PD group or one day, in a year, we're going to talk about issues of diversity today. When it's largely like that the employees nowadays are expected to do manual handling training or health and safety training that, you know, they are not interested trainers not interested, they just have to do legally. So it's pretty much that kind of thing. There's almost a lack of real commitment to engage in in this because because it's really, really difficult thing to engage with. The second problem that I see which is much more broader problem, and I think that might be a bit challenging what I'm going to say in some ways, because the part of the problem I see that that the most of counselling, psychotherapy theories, they are I mean, I'm not going to say something new here, people probably always use this in their essay writings and stuff, if you're very kind of American or Western or European based based philosophy, but what does it really mean when people say this people often not engaging in the follow up the discussion, the one of the major difference is that the most of this vlog these philosophies or theories, they're based on this idea of, of a client or a person as an individual. And I'm not talking about this, this discussion about this, some societies are more collective societies and other societies are more person based society. So I'm not talking about that division. I'm talking about fundamentally, that we see an individual as as a single entity. And that's a part of the problem. Because Because I fundamentally believe that you cannot really separate a person from persons surrounding which we in Gestalt all talk about as it concept of field theory. And that, that gives a complete different way of looking at issues of, for example, differences, or racism. The reason I say this because many, many times over the years, I've worked with several therapists and supervisors and trainers, and most of them have been white. And and people would say something to me, like, what's it like for you to work with a white therapist? Now, that really bugs me, you know, because it's such a complex discussion. And you, you, you, you, you, you make your client to take responsibility of such a complex, shifting discussion, you know, and you and you and that's because it's based on this individualistic concept, of dualistic concept that I am separate from you or the world is separate from us and all that kind of nonsense. The therapy, if you if you follow a therapy based on the concept of co creation, you know, asked based in the field theory concept, then then this issue is not just for the client, maybe this is an issue that is that belongs to both the therapist and the client, if there is a white therapist and a black client, then the issue of difference doesn't belong to the client. The issues of different belongs to both parties and all modules must be willing to engage in this discussion. But what happens is that the therapist, they're not comfortable in that process to engage. Either they're not trained or they're not supported, or they're too frightened. Because if only the client reverse the question of black client, reverse the question to white therapists saying, What is it like for you to work with a black client? And I can imagine the therapists thinking, are you thinking I'm racist? Do you think I'm prejudiced? Do you think How should I respond to that? Should I say, Oh, I celebrate working with clients from different backgrounds? I'd well respond. And if you're not giving me to carry on a couple of more,
Peter Blundell :absolutely, I just just on that point, I was just thinking about how often maybe as therapists is a bit of a generalisation, but we can become uncomfortable when the lens is is no longer focused on the client, but actually focused back upon our upon ourselves. But how important that is, but as you're talking about there, this co creation that actually it is always between us and the client, there is always that dual process going on and how we need to be able to sit with that uncomfortableness and work out ourselves what is going on there. And what is that about?
Faisal Mahmood :Absolutely Peter, and that's exactly what I think what's lacking, really. I mean, every six months I get really good. annoyed about something going on in the counselling and psychotherapy worlds and it changes. What really annoys me at the moment in the counselling psychotherapy world is that when I when I hear the word that people use so frequently that this is my privileged position. And this is so much use. I have a problem with this and I plan people might have objection with my with my with my problem. The reason I say this is because I think, for a therapist to own this position that I'm in a privileged position. Sometimes people do this prematurely. They do it too quickly. They do it in a way that well I put my hands up that this this shows that I'm that I, I have it almost remove them from that process of struggle and grappling and making sense of difference.
Peter Blundell :It's almost a throwaway comment rather than a deep inner reflection about what is actually going on in that.
Faisal Mahmood :That's part of it. And second issue is that it's, it's, it's done so prematurely with, I guess, with intention to get to a comfortable place. That if I, if I make myself uncomfortable myself, then that's somewhat more comfortable then then really allow myself to go through with my client or with other whatever we make together. Because, yes, so i think i think i think i would encourage people that soundside exactly guru type, you know, apologies, sounds like that. I don't have any, any mechanical use of intervention of any kind that you have read or heard other people using Please don't use it as a mechanical intervention. let yourself have an embodied experience of that privileged position, and then own it. Yeah, and I think I think people don't allow themselves to go through that process believe that process of climb to, to travel, but but remain somewhat very distant.
Peter Blundell :It's like, almost feeling like that, underneath it all. a therapist kind of knows this is where I need to get to, I need to acknowledge I'm in a position of power and privilege. Therefore, I'll acknowledge that, but have not gone through the lived experience of feeling what that is actually like to be in a position of power. How does that feel to my client? How do I feel about that? And that is new for each client, isn't it because the it will be different for each person in certain contexts, so to assume and to make that statement, but actually what does it realistically feel like in that relationship with with somebody else? It's a different thing.
Faisal Mahmood :He is Yeah. And and how how I mean, how abusive it is that if if I am as a client as an Asian person sitting with somebody whose wife's therapist, and and we started this discussion about differences, and reading two minutes into the discussion of therapy says, or I am very aware of my privileged position as a white person. I'm not really sure whether they're trying to tell me but this that they have already assumed that I don't have a privileged position. Today, I'm, you know, so So, that premature moving away from the client is what the real problem is.
Peter Blundell :No, I get that. And again, I suppose with lots of things in therapy, it is about that deeper self reflection and exploration of understanding what is going on well, within that process, but also within yourself as a therapist.
Faisal Mahmood :It is Yeah, I have to say, I'm gonna say something controversial here and many people, you know, like they're saying this for that's fine. And I think some, some therapists still kind of follow the kind of traditions of this absolute nonsense concept of blank screen. And, and, and, and the idea that, you know, I can carry this blank screen in the service of either projection, so, transference and countertransference and other things. That's absolute. I mean, what could be more abusive than that really, I guess, that it has nothing to do with me, my clients projected on me or my clients projected into me as a projective identification. I mean, what could be more abusive I guess in that position, to, to, to, to hold that position that I am an absolute neutral entity. And whatever is happening, whatever you're not comfortable with or your anger or your is everything to do with you. I mean, I think I think in a way, I mean, I'm really glad that the relational psychoanalysis they have really moved away from that, you know, thinking but you still see those ripple effects in, in our field. But the thing is, it's not about just about that one modality, it's spreads to other modalities to that kind of thinking, the idea of bracketing off or not really understanding about, you know, the self disclosure in in in that way. You know, if we believe, apart from changing the topic because many therapists counsellors in this country, know they fundamentally would say something that for me that the therapeutic relationship is the heart is the key. of the work. And I, and I think I think they say this, keeping the dualistic the individualistic philosophy intact. Instead of truly believing in that relational encounter between me and client, the therapy is if it's truly relational encounter, then it's not just the journey of client is the journey of therapists too and it's the meeting of those two people to complete each unique encounter. And both not fully aware that what might happen when they meet. That's what the therapy is. That's what the counselling is, you know, I'm not trying to sit here and imagine that I know what might be going on for you kind of an attempt, you know, some of the very fundamental concepts of our work. They are based on this dualistic thinking that I am separate from you. I'm therapist, your client and and the Use the tag line of relationship based work, but they're not really truly committing to the true relational work. Do I sound really grumpy there, Peter?
Peter Blundell :No, not at all. I think I think I think you sound very clear. And it's, it's, um, yeah, I think it's making me think deeper about how we connect with the other person in the therapeutic relationship and that bringing your full self in there as the client does and how those two people interconnect and meet within that encounter. So yeah, but no, I don't think you sounded grumpy. It's all thinking about connecting and connecting with others. How do you how do you feel? How much do you feel connected to the wider therapists community? Do you feel connected to the wider therapists community?
Faisal Mahmood :Hard to be both understand the word wider. Really? Yeah. You more famous than I am Peter, so I guess you' wider is really wider to somebody like myself, who's the, you know, most of the time rather than introvert or moving between, you know, pretending extrovert and remaining introvert. And I think, I think I've done some work with BACP you know, attend this conference here and there and I, you know, done some, some attended some conferences with BPS and other stuff. So have some contact with people in that sense. And I think I, I really think there is a need of more work. And I really, really, honestly believe Peter what you have started, the Therapists Connect movement. And it had to start the leader started because if you have planned something really great and authorization, it wouldn't have work. You know, it has to be this natural, organic processing that no a treat no At the start of this start of the year, it is it was really, that's what was needed that people engage in that people engage in a meaningful way people have discussions about the politics of our profession. People talk about different topics, people find a way to support each other's practice. And people find a way to reach out for support. And I really think that the work that you started I think there's a great potential in that personally, because being in a teaching environment being linked with attending some conferences and stuff, there is some contact with other people. And I move you know, I think sometimes I wish you I had more contacts, especially if I'm looking for some support, you know, a while we're really good to reach out and not thinking who could I reach out and other times, you know, feel satisfied. So I think could have moved to between different polarities. Yeah.
Peter Blundell :Well, it's interesting because I mean, I consider myself an introvert as well. So it's very strange kind of feeling so out there and connected to so many therapists in these last six months, because I think naturally, that's something that I would have kind of lent into. And so it's been a bit of a journey for me as well, really. One of the things that then kind of coming to the end of this discussion, I was wondering kind of what is next for you kind of what have you got planned over the, you know, the next 12 months or whatever is that obviously, you're going to continue teaching, but is there anything else that you've got within the therapist community that you're you're planning and interested in at the moment?
Faisal Mahmood :Yeah, I think the two things that stands out for me I'm really, as I said early on, very expressive about my love and passion for groups. I want to set up I won't be doing some CPD group training and from practitioners I haven't found out the finalise details of course, because the COVID19 situation, and I guess it's probably later on this year or next year, hopefully. So that's the one thing. And the second thing is that I think I think I am, I'm quite, I'm quite interested in, in, in finding a way where perhaps maybe reaching out to somebody like yourself, Peter, that how that platform of Therapists Connect, can create a platform where therapists counsellors can engage in a kind of more support more deeper level with with the contemporary issues. And being part of that so I see some kind of interest in that and engaging in that part.
Peter Blundell :And I think, I think what you're saying I think there is a real appetite out there at the moment for something like that in terms of, you know, therapists getting together and really talking through I'm working on some of the predominant issues that are facing the profession, but from as many different voices and and backgrounds and approaches that we possibly can. And it almost feels like you know, not being from an organisation but actually being a collective kind of unity and a response to, to the issues that the professionals face. Now there's a lot of voices out there. I think doing that by trying to bring them together I think is going to be really important over the next two years, I do believe that as well.
Faisal Mahmood :It is but that that that carries a risk of the number of voices because that has been the history of counselling, psychotherapy profession in this country. If you look at the last 40 years, even longer. as men it has been very difficult I guess, for counsellors or whatever profession in this country to to come to some common agreement. It if there is something about this that needs to need some Need some need some, some exploration and some work? It kind of does a disservice to that. And to the profession, yes. And professionals, because the division just happens at a very interesting point, in my experience, if you look at the history last 20/30 years, and where there is a absolute great benefit of having a different opinion. But one of the things I have one of the things I've noticed that that those conflicts, those differences, they grow so massive that it it almost kind of people kind of break away from each other. And with a conflict can be really healthy in a democratic debate. until the point that somebody says that I'm no longer Part of this group and that, that has huge and trauma for, for a group. And I think if you look at the history of counselling, psychotherapy here in this country briefly in the last 70 /80 years, in a very subtle ways the profession has gone through that process process of several traumas. And, and wait, because it's so it's so complex at some level, because when the new voice emerges, it's exciting. It's lovely, it's a new birth, there's a lot of people around that voice with you know, want to make that stuff work. And that and all the attention goes for that survival until that group grows and too big enough. And when there is a conflict, instead of using that conflict effectively, it creates another group Yeah, I'm not surprised that the real issue Peter if you look at that, why, why is it and I feel very strongly that counselling psychotherapy remains a wonderful profession. I know many colleagues and I'm sure you're aware of them. And I have a lot of respect for them. They're working so hard, challenging, you know, the status quo and really fighting for the rights of counsellors and therapists. I think it's brilliant, what they're doing, what why are we in this profession? Why Why are we in this situation in the first place? I think it needs some, some because it does suit. It does suit, a divider system. Who all those forces who want counselling or psychotherapy remained a largely a voluntary profession, it does suit them, because the solution isn't just about that it the profession has to be regulated. When I have spoken about this before that I think some kind of regulation is ultimately what needs to happen. But it's not just about the regulation or not regulation. I don't think SCoPEd or pro or anti scope is an answer to that debate. It's a much more bigger issue. Part of the problem is that, and that I think as a profession, we have not been successful in making that transition from where we could work with other stakeholders when we work with commissioners in a way that and that doesn't mean that we follow commissioners instructions, you know, no other profession does it. We don't need to do that. We we, we absolutely don't need to doubt our potential or our abilities. Absolutely. Yes. I think the part of the problem isn't a medical model. The part of the problem isn't about drawer empty regulations or school or similar kind of issues. Part of the problem is that I think we we need that firmness in our we need to believe in ourselves. I think many people do that I think that transition needs to happen. And, and and we need to call with with with boldness with with with clarity and, and absolute not fluffy ness, I would say, you know, and what happened. last comment I would say that before move on what happens in our field is that when one when one when there is a one voice, try to engage with people about something. There is a counter voice of that. And, and, and that really doesn't help this whole argument because I think I think there are many issues as a profession we need to solve or deal with or address. So everywhere I'm gonna be talking too much. That's probably Part Two or some some of the time.
Peter Blundell :No, I know, I really appreciate the point you're making, because I think the issues are so complex. And I think, what almost feels like to me sometimes that that we are arguing amongst ourselves. And then I think this might be part of the point that you were making. Whereas actually, if we were collective and we had a bit more of a solid and collected you, we there's actually some of the things we're facing as a system. And we need to be more engaged with that and more influential in the decisions that have been made around that system rather than fighting amongst ourselves over some of the aspects of that system. But that is a massive, I mean, it's a massive challenge, isn't it? And I think you're right, as soon as we get voices that developed within the profession, views developing an alternate views and agendas developed. And I think that is a is a is a big difficulty with how do we collectively bring everybody together to try and speak with one voice in a system that, you know, is challenging enough as it is.
Faisal Mahmood :Yeah, I have to say, I'm very optimistic is because I work as I said in 10/15 years. Yeah. A commission Services Commission by by by local authorities or by NHS. Yeah. Being part of country and being part of those contracts. And I believe that there is enough appetite there among commissioners. I think that people have much more knowledge about counselling and psychotherapy. I mean, I have to say this is the biggest failure of our profession, that when needed about 10 years now, we know that IAPT introduction, that that counselling or psychotherapy was sidelined. I think how on earth we were, we ended up in that situation. The reality of that is that they have to train, you know, thousands of workforce and those people, some of them that came from All sorts of different backgrounds, you know, and they have to invest millions of pounds to train them. I mean, this is the biggest scandal, I guess, of our profession, that there is a very well trained workforce sitting there, you know, who could have offered much more greater pool of interventions? Yeah. Then Then what day we're going to train and this side line, all of that and introduce, you know, something completely new. And we all know that you know, that the effectiveness of, of services. I think this is the biggest scandal and I have to say be a part of the problem is that some of our colleagues, as soon as you hear the word, NHS or medical model or working with with commissioners, they don't want to go along. They don't want to sit on a table and engage in that debate. And and if you are seen as somebody who is not somebody who's serious to sit on a table and engage in, in a plan of service delivery, people are not going to take you on board. I mean,
Peter Blundell :As we talked about, there is such a massive amount of qualified therapists counsellors and psychotherapists out there who are actively looking for work and want work. And my argument always is the need is out there. Okay. The profile of mental health, mental well being is probably at the peak right now. And people are wanting to access therapists, but actually the roles and the jobs out there do not represent the needs that is out there in the wider community. So yeah, no, I completely understand that the point we're making now. Okay, well, I think we kind of come to the end. Really. Was there anything else that you wanted to talk about before we finished or I think we've got we've covered we've covered a lot of issues.
Faisal Mahmood :I guess, was it Thank you very much, Peter. Thank you very much for thinking about me approaching me. Yes, I'dlike to know stay engaged with you. I think we're saying that there is. It's a great platform therapists connect, because it's not linked with with any one brand. It has a potential to everything we're talking about or bringing people together in a meaningful way. And yeah, thank you and have a good salary. If I don't see you speak to you before then.
Peter Blundell :Oh, thank you very much. And I do hope at some point we will actually meet face to face one day when we turn back. That'd be fantastic. Thank you so much. Transcribed by https://otter.ai