Dr Ruth Allen

And we're going to be talking about her approach to counselling throughout this episode today.

being too vulnerable. But then I'm really into just being honest. I don't know, I always think would, would I mind if a client read this knowing that there will be clients reading it? And I think that is fine. But I also feel a bit thin skinned around it as well. So I don't know. Yeah, it just makes me it just fills me with anguish. Other people must feel this way - do not not feel this way about Twitter?

earth is going on'? It's been it's been strange, but it's been lovely as well, I have spoken to so many therapists, you know, interacted and everything over the past five months. It's just been - I've loved it. It's been absolutely wonderful.

So in my 20s, I did quite a lot volunteering for the Samaritans and got really interested in, in suicidality and sort of human despair and I headed up a prison team at that time. And it really sort of planted the seed, I suppose, of wanting to work in - with people - and at that time, I was still in the world of geology. And so that was I kind of my previous career; I was in higher education. I done my PhD in geology. And I suppose I just got to a point where I thought,

you know what, I love rocks. But I, I don't see where my future is, in working with - just working with rocks. I mean it was really interesting. But it started to feel almost indefensible, which is probably a strange way of putting it but it just, I, it didn't sit with me in terms of what am I, what kind of value am I bringing to

the world. But I felt like I had to wait for that call, I had to wait for the, I suppose what you would call the, you know, the, the call in the second half of life and the second part of life, that sort of sense of the Jungian second half when you move perhaps from ambition and career to vocation. And I didn't really get that call until about five years ago, six years ago, but at that point, I decided I wanted to formalise my counselling training. But I knew immediately I wasn't going to

work indoors. Well, that was the plan. I didn't want to work indoors. But I knew that I would have to train indoors, because that's the way it's still done. That, isn't it? I mean, that's the way, that's the way fundamentally our training is still offered. So I kind of knew that that was going to have to be my route. But I knew from the outset, I want to qualify, and I want to move straight outdoors.

So, that I think is a slightly different process, I was very much I came to it from this is, you know - the outdoors are so much for me, nature does so much for me - how can I bring my outdoor life and my outdoor experience together with counselling and psychotherapy, and it really started there, I suppose. And then I and I've always been involved in coaching as well. So I suppose I, it's been quite organic, that I've developed these two spheres of

work. There's the therapy, and then there's the almost what I would call public... like communication, communicating the work, more outreach, more sort of online sharing of wellbeing stuff and, and mental health in nature. That's not, not therapy. But they obviously clearly have the joining values and the joining practices in the middle,

I suppose. And that, and that's just the way it's developed, that those two parts are still really important to me: the communication of it for everyone, and the private therapeutic practice.

And actually making those connections back again, with nature and the outside world feels actually quite important and quite almost, where we've come from, we're going back to where you know where we came from originally.

very old. And it draws on lots of old indigenous wisdom when you really get down to the roots of outdoor ecotherapy. As I'm moving more towards now. It was us that took all of the healing business inside. I think. And made it into a business, and made it, medicalised it and pathologised health. And so actually, it's it's very natural to go back outside. And it's got a, you know, a rich heritage in that regard.

walk and talk. So it's very much a just take it out the room, go and walk and talk and I think that's when, it's at it's most, most just kind of - it's a tool level. And then I think, you know, on the other end, there's really quite a political practice. That's, you know, it brings in all sorts of things in ecology and animal rights and environmentalism, and social justice and feminism, embodiment, it's, you know, it's really kind of spans the whole

mix. And so, at its most basic level, for me is taking psychotherapy, and soul work to some degree into a different space. But I'm starting to move away increasingly, from the idea of outdoor therapy, I think that outdoor is the- not it - not the work of it, but the term I think, partly, I've been using that for the last few years. But there's something about the vernacular of that, which seems to, it chimes a lot with the outdoor industry, I think it's, it's quite palatable, it's quite

now. Ecotherapy, I think is, you know, takes it more into the philosophical sphere, and perhaps, then it becomes off putting to certain people or certain things going on there. But for me to come back to ecotherapy, I think it It marks a sort of a continual movement and the deeper underlying roots of it, which are around eco psychology, really, the roots of my practice run fairly deep, and they're deepening all the time. So I'm starting to identify more

with that. And also, I think, I think you're an outdoor therapist, whether you're practising outdoors or not, I'm still an eco therapist when I'm online. And that's because it infuses my work the the the 'Eco' psychological, I suppose, underlying principles are always there, I don't just have them when I go outside. So things if you know that in like eco psychology, you just got within it this notion that humans aren't centric, we're not the, you know, we're not the only

species. It's all sort of about inter-being and transpersonal

have your reason for that. But for me, it's it is about the politics and the philosophy, underlying it does embody at the core of it, something about embracing all of, all species, and it does tie in all of these different issues. And they're so emergent at the moment. And I think it's richer for that. So, yeah, I don't know how - I couldn't not be political...in my work, because of that,

quite a lot. And there's paradoxes in that, because I have to work in private practice, because this isn't mainstream. So I have to charge money. There's a problem there. But there's something about moving it outside to a natural place of healing, not shutting individuals behind closed doors, and saying, Oh, you know, you're on your own, there's something wrong with you, you need to go and speak to a therapist - so let's get outside, let's walk alongside each other as humans.

And let's kind of give it out to the world. You know, let's bring nature in. And so ecotherapy is it's, it's more than the two of you. It's three, true ecotherapy, when you're bringing nature in, it's the, it's a triad. It's not the dyad situation. So, again, there's a big sort of difference there.

both, haven't you in? How would you, I mean, I imagine there's a lot of differences but how would, kind of, what, what, what would what would be the main differences would you say in terms of working in those two different ... I was gonna say settings, but I suppose it could be two potentially different approaches as well, in terms of how you work...

. And just experiencing that. I mean, the two obvious things tha come to mind is that it s the psychological impact of It's really interesting, that connection between ... it was being without walls, for one th ng. I think a lot of people wil say, 'ahh' you walk into the s ace and the body, we're kind of, you know, obviously listeners c n't hear, but I'm kind of colla sing into my seat, my shoulders are down, there's that sense of ahhh', I can breathe out her

! And people will often like loo at the sky, and there's just he sense of, you know, there's s ace to think and to feel. So think for a lot of people, hat's really important. It was mportant for me, I always found my own therapy, i doors, quite stifling. And agai , again, I'm pulling out my shir s and my top now my neckline i stinctively, because there was t at sense of 'Oh, I'm stuck in a room'. So I think that's one f the things, but also our bodies are in perpetual motion.

So obviously, you know, b dy work, body psychotherapy as got a very long, rich traditi n of its own. And a lot o that will be indoors, but some f that's also outdoors. And I think, in the way I work, i my practice, we're constantly m ving. I mean, you know, we do e do stop and it and actually th se stops, and those pau es are really important. They're often notable, and we lo k at where we going and how we j urney through the space. But the

core of it is we're moving. An I think that perpetual move ent is really important. It's, ou know, we're beings in movemen , at its most depressing, we' e moving towards death, rig t? Sure Mick Cooper would agr e with me on this. We are w are kind of directional in t at way. And, but we also do real y well, when we, when we're out, when we change our env ronment, and we're moving, we end to solve problems, e think more creatively. So I think, you know, those, o me are two really obvious thi

gs. But then you've also got a eal richness of metaphor, and nature's materiality to sor of give you a language. So for people perhaps find it q ite hard just to say, this is hat I'm feeling, there' an opportunity to really dra on the visuals of the landsc

pe. And, you know, I've lost cou t of the number of times we'v walked into a kind of a tangl d, I've talked about this, I'v talked about this before, bu it's a really common one walkin into a kind of a tangle of tree , which quite common in the spac that I work in, and people will go 'Oh, yeah, this is my br in'. And that's so useful. That s such a useful to actually be nder the tangle of trees and lo k up and say, oh, even this i like my brain. That's really

reat. It offers such a rich me aphor, I suppose for people to draw on. And then, you know, without, there's not just that, but then there's the extra stu f, which is really exciting. ell, the transpersonal, he lived experience, the moment of being outside the here and n w, which is in itself, I thin , really important to the huma soul to well-being. So we ust, we'll be talking and th n 'Oh look, birds', or 'doe n't that wind sound amazing',

or fresh rain. And these thi gs, they don't have to mean any hing more than they are, they'r just being in touch with, wit nature, which is very resto ative. I mean, these are the t

ings that jump out to me. And bviously, quite vivid there when you're describing kind of being tangled within the trees, I'm thinking, gosh, actually, it does sound like that the outdoors is the third person within the, withi the therapy because they'r actually interacting with, wi h, with it at that time as, as the therapy is happening, but lso the idea that as you are outside, that the world is

ust happening around you. And it can just be that, just noticing yes, noticing the world is happening around you. Absolutely. And you don't - I often find you don't need to interfere in the process, you know, you can sort of, nature will reveal itself and people will have their own engagement and they'll see what they see and they'll be affected by what

they're affected by. And my supervisor Hayley Marshall, she talks about it as the living third in the relation, in the therapeutic relationship and it's so true. I think if you don't stand in the way of that and you take out the therapy, you know your therapist ego, and just let the person have that experience that will also give them something, and yeah, life is carrying on around you and a lot of people worry about the damage to the therapeutic frame

with outdoor therapy. They worry that it's you know, how do you guarantee confidentiality? I hear people say. Well, you can't, you can't, you can't mitigate against all the risk. But this is what it is to be alive in the world. It's risky. There isn't always guaranteed confidentiality, we can't control everything. So for me, it's really important to bring that into the work to say, well, there's gonna be things that we can't control. How are we going to work with that anyway?

You know, when it's rained five weeks solidly? And it's just felt miserable. Well, yeah, that's what it's like, isn't it? When you have low mood, or you're depressed, or you're miserable, you can't get out of it. You don't get to just switch it, switch, you know, direction and say, Oh, well, you know, I want better. Of course you do. We have to work with what we have, with what we give it in the moment. So this all comes alive, for me, when we go outside, I think, which is

really exciting. And it just brings the heart of..

your environment all the time. I see this, particularly in coaching, where I might do a coaching day, they can be really hard, because I'm also thinking of what direction are we going? What's happening to the weather? Are they hungry? Am I hungry? How am I feeling in my body? Am I tired and so that extra embody-ness of it can be quite, it brings an extra layer, I think, but the uncertainty and all of that stuff that you can't control, I think is also really

great. You know, it's it just sort of it enlivens the therapeutic process, I think. I've noticed people say, you know, things can happen quite quickly, that they perhaps will say themselves, they don't think they would have got to in a few weeks... it's hard to know that,but it, there's a kind of a quickened process or something

t on my face. But I've like tr pped over rocks, or I'm kind o you know, been going throu h kind of brambles or something r getting just really bedragg ed in the rain and your client see you, they see you as a p Yeah. And it's like, it sounds like it's very approached from a rson with them. I really valu that, the humanity of that. I mean, I'm, I'm, it's funny, because ecotherapy is very much bout taking humans at the centre in a way and, and this noti

n of interconnectedness. And a the same time, another parad x is that I'm really deeply Rog rian, in as much as, you know, the transformativ power of relationships and and just being congruent and be ng wholly you and being auth ntic, and just really loving t e client. So it's, there's, ther 's all of that going on as w ll. And I just, I really fel from the beginning of my therap journey, I don't want to do wo k, or I'm not going to be seen s I am or I'm not going t

do true, soulful work. I'm not gonna be afraid of that, was ind of what I decided. And yo know, because I'd spent, you pend the first part of your li e building up your ego in you career. And like I'm done wit that, I just want to be, just want to be whole and norma . And that's not the same as it being about me. You know, thera y is, it's not that tool, but it s just for me, it's been practis ng in a way outside is a way f just being like, yeah, here

am another human. And I think I've got some stuff that can hel you. Let very authentic place. You know, this is this is me, and this is and this is kind of what I believe in and that feeds into your therapeutic approaches - as it would do for anyone... although all of those things probably influence the type of I suppose it does, which I and I know that people will question that in the way that they question, you know the value of ecotherapy or outdoor therapy, because it is pretty much a case

of... Yeah, you can tell something quite clearly about me and my philosophy from my website or from my social media. And so that does mean that I'm going to attract certain people who are probably feeling similar ways. But I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. I mean, it means that it's a challenge to diversifying my practice, certainly. It means that there's a challenge in there around... yeah... just, I don't know. Yeah, I gues just primarily, it' that diversification, isn't it?

And I guess people will thin , oh, you're bringing too m ch of yourself. But at the same time, I think I work generally i long term therapy with people. nd so I think you get an in ormed choice, you know the ki d of person I am. You don't kno all of my thoughts, but yo know, roughly how I'm going t be aligned. And I think that' about informed consent, yo know, I don't make - nobody g ts allocated me. And I don't et allocated, then we choose.

approach, that we, that we believe in and that we use, so nd if we don't like it, we go nd we find someone else to w rk with. So that that I guess t at being seen in that way, for s me people will be quite a challe ge to the perhaps a m re traditional view of it's n t, you know, it's not about be ng seen, but what you think a d feel or experience or b lieve is not relevant in the t erapy room, it's so it .. Yeah. right? I mean it comes out anyway d

nature. And I think a lot of people in the time of the time of COVID are reconnecting with nature, which is really exciting. And I think, you know, I think people are realising that, of course, the living world is vital for our well-being. And, and this is really, in this, this is really important. And it's nothing new, I think, you know, every generation, we remake and re-story and re-explore our connection with nature, and that innate wisdom, so, you know, fine, that's happening again.

And then I think there's, there's another two divisions. There's the one where people are still not convinced, because they're very worried about this stretching of the therapeutic frame and the, you know, the taking the, yeah, the elements are kind of radical, I guess, about its underpinnings, which are a challenge to some of the, you know, academic kind of ways of doing things, or to, just the way things have always been

done. You know, there's a lot of emphasis on the indigenous wisdom in the roots of eco therapy. And that's not the same as you know, the ivory tower of academia. So there's interesting things going on there. And then I think there's this emergence of people that are getting curious, because it's a new method, because it's, we're in kind of COVID life now, where social distancing is real. It's looking like it's here to stay.

So I think people having an emerging interest and like, oh, okay, this is a way that I can still keep working. And I think that's where there's the greatest opportunity to like, okay, let's look at what that really is, because that's fine. But that's not nearly as exciting as if you gave it more thought - you could just go outside. And that would be, that, that will be fine. And nature would no doubt work on you and your client in a physiological way. You know, we know from being outside, it's

just good for us anyway. So it's going to be working as magic if you take it outside. But there's an opportunity to go a bit deeper I think. And it but it's interesting because it's bringing it into the mainstream and I think a lot of particularly ecotherapy when you give it that name has been very fringe. And it's been people have been a bit sniffy, because, oh - it's a bit green, it's a bit hippy. But of course, we are

getting greener. We're getting more aware and actually we're embracing some of the stuff now, that people have been talking about for a long time. And so I think there is a kind of Oh, okay, maybe there is something in this, after all. So it's exciting. I think it's exciting.

with ourselves. And I see the way that I can see the way this is going because this is the scientific paradigm, we like to make everything evidenced through science, through, through a language that legitimises it, because without that, oh, you know, It's just soul. It's psyche. It's it's all fluffy stuff. And it's not, it's actually indigenous native wisdom. And it's very important - it's that intuition. And it's that deeper stuff, but it's, yeah, I think that's my worry

for it. But then I guess you could say, well, if it just gets people out there, and it gets people to connect with nature... And, so I don't know, I think, that will be, that's gonna remain to be seen what happens there, I think, and I suspect a lot of people are worried about that. But we can all find something to worry about.

at this point. But having seen this emergence of interest, I just sort of felt like, actually I do want to be involved in helping people think more deeply about their outdoor practice, just because I, I love it anyway. So as you can tell, I like talking about it, I'm taking a lot of space. But I also just, I really want them to have a great experience; I want the clients to have a great experience. I want to sort of try and uphold that, that tradition, perhaps, of

ecotherapy. And so yeah, the workshop I'm offering at the moment is going to be split into two parts, essentially, the first part will be around the practicals, and the logistics, you know: insurance, contracting, risk assessments, when it's not suitable to go outside. And it's definitely the case that it's not always

suitable. Looking at the this, the issue of confidentiality, all of those kind of things, the things that when I started out, I was like too embarrassed to ask and felt that everything was a stupid question. So I'll be

picking up some of that. And then we're going to move a little bit into the deeper opportunities of outdoors - the kind of thing we've been talking about here, and perhaps getting a little bit, you know, into some of those and very much, it's only about my way of doing things; let's say ecotherapy, outdoor therapy, nature therapy, it's a very broad church, and mine is largely around language - metaphor - movement, and how we work with trauma outside.

I've got certain interests and so that, we'll be moving into that in the second half. Yeah, so that's, that's what that's going to be about. So I hope that people will just be interested to come perhaps hear a little bit more.

know, they're easy to find. And then there's lots of, various people, books by Caroline Brazier, Linda Buzzell, there's lots of interesting stuff about the Buddhist influences in ecotherapy. If you go more, if you put in ecopsychology, you get more of the underlying flavour of the philosophy around it, I suppose. So I would say that, and Hayley Marshall, she's my supervisor, she runs courses and training. So there's lots of

people, Nick Totten. There's loads and loads of people - all doing different flavours,so I would just say, look around, look, explore the search terms and the different names to try and work out what how it fits with your own sort of existing stuff that's going on. And then I think there's something about going deeper then again, and getting into, being interested

in indigenous wisdom. And this is very much the path I'm on at the moment, is coming back to that, coming back to the roots and just reading about nature of the land and interconnectedness. So I would, you know, encourage people to do that. And I guess most importantly, that's been I think it's really overlooked in the age of, you know, what can I, what can I read? How can I, what courses can I do? Go interrogate your own connectedness to nature, this has been so fundamental to my

ongoing kind of discovery. And this work is really asking, 'why does it matter to me?' 'What do I get from it?' It was it was a complete, it was a real moment of epiphany when I realised how I was using (in inverted commas) nature... it is 'using'. But that's, that's not the whole of my relationship with nature, but how are we using it to regulate my emotions, and how I, how I go out into nature as part of a dissociative process in myself. So there's interesting stuff

that you can get into. But I think it has to start from that kind of self inquiry. So if you don't, if you don't know anything about your own relationship with nature, I just think you're not going to be able to see it or facilitate it or be aware of it in others. And that's the same in all therapy, isn't it? That's why that's why they say go and have therapy, you've got to know what it's like to sit in the other seat,

understanding of ourselves. It's the same isn't it with with this kind of approach, actually, if you don't understand your own relationship with nature, it's quite hard to use that or be in that space if you haven't really got an understanding of how you engage with it...

starts returning. But, you know, how can we possibly work with other people's process outdoors if we are dead to it ourselves, essentially, and, and so really scrutinising that and really being aware, and everyone - you know - has different relationship with nature, everyone is drawn to different aspects that does different things for them. They regulate in nature in different ways. And so it's, it's really worth exploring. And I think it's

really overlooked. And that's what I've learned from my supervision outdoors and from from Hayley - is not to overlook that part of the process. And just to get bookish about it, so much of eco therapy is as they say about relationship and experience, and that you have to bring your own into that. So I will just say to people get out there first, even if you just do that sometimes, to just do something to inquire into your

own. And I'm hoping in future months, when there is some time to create a new online module and some hopefully some face to face stuff around developing your own relationship with nature because sometimes it's not clear what that really means and how to start. I think people think it's a grander thing than it is. And a lot of it is observing and noticing. So I think that'll be a key part of the puzzle for people perhaps..

such a, it's such a loss. That is not where the gift lies.

eaten by wolves. You know, it could change on a... it could just change just like that. And so that was very humbling. But it was just, it was, I'm a very introverted person, usually. I know I'm on social media quite a lot. But I like a lot of time to myself, I, what I get in my relationship with nature is very much when it's just me outdoors. And I can just be myself and talk to animals, do all those kooky things that I've always done as a child. And so it's,

it's really freeing. So actually, it was a real luxury to have two weeks and to move my body, and to think about my own connection with nature and where I wanted my work to go. And it was just it was exciting. And I was supposed to be going back out again next week to do the next leg in the same mountain range from Montenegro to Albania, but obviously had to cancel my flight. Yeah, shame. Yeah, I was looking forward to that it was a real would have been a real chance to.

there's so much on there. The last thing that I kind of wanted to cover, which is I think, this is a real interest, and I hadn't really... I'm sure people maybe have done this, but I hadn't really seen this, where you've kind of brought together the outdoors, but also some things

online as well. So there was some on your website, you've been doing virtual walks, where people can have a look at videos of people going for walks, if they weren't able to kind of get out and access that for themselves, which I thought was was a wonderful thing. And but you've also been doing virtual group walks as well, which is on a Monday at 8am, where you kind of take photographs of walks collectively of wherever each person is, and post them all up

on social media at the time. So people can kind of be experiencing that, while on their own walk or from their own home. And I just thought both of those things were really interested in and wondered what kind of response that you, that you'd had around both of those?

And we're seeing that a lot at the moment, aren't we this last couple of weeks, but before this, you know, I have been profoundly aware of having quite a lot of nature privilege and a lot of access and very much moved to be here, in this space. But that that's still a

privilege that I could do. And I, I guess I just really realised, again afresh during lockdown that, you know, whether you were shielded person and we're being told not to go outside or you were, you know in a quite nature depleted area and frankly the UK has got a terrible record of destruction of its natural kind of habitats. I just thought, What can I do? And I can't do an awful lot about that. But maybe I can just

offer some simple resources. So yes, I'm creating these 10 minute walks that we're trying to replicate. Yeah, just a normal walk with the ambient sound of nature. And no narration, nothing flashy, just to give a real sense and people that I, started sending them in during lockdown. So I just popped them on YouTube. And they've had a really good response. I mean, they're not, you know, they're not millions

of hits. But I think for those who have used them, there's a sense that in the very least, they're just a moment of distraction from Netflix or scrolling or the news. You know, it's just 10 minutes of listening to birdsong. We've had some lovely ones sent in from, you know, the Hebrides, snowshoeing in the Sierra Nevada, and just lovely kind of, lovely insights into other people's places. And in and that's been lovely in that

they've had good feedback. I think they're quite calming, you know, they're not what we are used to.You're used to seeing a narrated video, it's all tidy, and it's got 'a point', and it's got people in it. And, and these aren't. So I don't know that people necessarily stay the full duration of the 10 minutes, but perhaps they just get what they need just to have a little moment of natural nature. And as for the runs they, they came about, because I was just so miserable after every Sunday

brief, government briefing. I thought I, I can't be taking this into the week on, on Monday. And so and I, you know, I tend to work, perhaps erroneously, sometimes I start from a position of 'if I feel something, perhaps other people are going to feel something similar?' So I just put it out and said, I'm going to go for a run tomorrow, who wants to join? And that first week 13 people were like, Yeah, let's do it. So we I called it run walk club, I want it to be as inclusive as

possible. It doesn't matter where you are in the world, you can adjust the time or do it later. Doesn't matter whether you're on wheels, or you're walking or running, just let's go out, let's notice nature and nearby nature is so important to people's wellbeing - it's not, you know, it's not nature out there, it's it's, what matters is the nature you're around, in

your own place. And so I wanted to have something light touch, at the beginning of the week, to reset, to connect people to group energy, to connect with nature, and to move your body in a way that feels good. And it just took off the next week, there was 60. And now we're on maybe week five, week six, it's not been going for long. But it seems to be a great moment for just the people to say, Okay, let's do it. And it's getting

them out. And it's just, you know, it's a nice way of virtually connecting and maybe slightly different way from a formalised run club or the pressure of needing to perform and be athletic. So..

with nature. And I just thought that was, both of those things were a great way of... doing that

people's wellbeing. So if they're savouring the right kind of images, maybe that's something that's important when you're constantly being bombarded with all of the dark stuff around at the moment. So I'm interested in this and how it grows and seeing what other people are doing in this kind of space. I think it's quite exciting. And it's going to be the future, isn't it? Technology isn't going anywhere!

falls flat. I do have my first book coming out and can't really say much about that because it's it's not out yet but that it's not about therapy, it's so much about the nature relationship nature connection for for anybody, for anyone, just getting into it for emotional wellbeing. So that's exciting. I'm really, it looks, in that it combines photos, it's kind of essentially an illustrated book of thoughts and photos. So that's coming out in the autumn, I feel (inaudible)

devastating and powerful. And so opening and so horrendous, I feel like I've got a lot of work to do to... I really want to diversify my practice, I really want to make it genuinely inclusive, I want to make it

actively anti racist. I, it needs to, and I think I've been doing some work on that in terms of returning to this indigenous wisdom, trying to honour the actual voices, and the people not just appropriating that is, you know, the wellness industry is it's, it's not, doesn't have a good record for just culturally appropriating things. And so there's a lot of checking that I want to do a lot of really scrutinising my own work. And I want to carry on on that

journey. And I think in in many ways, that's going to be quite a personal private journey, and it's going to be a reckoning. And, but I think it has to happen. And I just feel like this is where I've been found through all of this, it's laid bare quite a lot of problems in, in myself and my own way of being and my own practice or our country. I feel like I want to be part of that work. And that's

gonna, that's a lot. It is, but I really feel like we have to and so, you know, not we have to because, you know, to tick boxes, but because it's so important, then I feel like I've really, shamefully late I'm awakened to that. But I want to be part of it and want to be reliable in that way. So I think that's going to probably usurp any of the other kinds of stuff. Apart from that, it's just can we, you know, get as many people outside as possible and start

the healing work. I mean, I think there's so much trauma around... I'm scared of what's coming down the line, I'm really scared for people. And I think, you know, there's therapists are gonna have a large role to play in the repair work.

been really interesting. And I feel like I've learned quite a lot actually today, chatting to you and it's, it's really inspired me as well, I think to try and reconnect with nature - I feel I am connected to nature but I feel like I'd like to do that on a deeper level, I think, than I currently do at this moment in time. So yeah, I really appreciate that.