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marketing. He came by my school for career day and said he was a big row as man. Then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ad spend. My friends still laugh at me to this day. Matt's Vellander. This is Mary Carillo. This is Pam Shriver. This is Janik Noah and you're listening to The Tennis Podcast. Well hello and welcome to The Tennis Podcast on this fine Sunday morning in Pottany,
Richmond, Solly Hall and North London. I think respectively yet we've got Matt Roberts, David Law and special guest from the athletic Charlie Eccleshire with us. Charlie I hope I haven't mislocationed you there. Well I'm I'm Waltham Stoich is East 17 famous post code but it's kind of northeast London so I'll let you off. I wonder how many of our non-UK based listeners will get the E17 reference answers on a post code please please get in touch. I tried it with Matt Varteman and he didn't
he did he not. You should just stay in the day and then it'll be fine. I feel a quick to answer everyone's E17 questions so do you send those in David how you doing? I'm all right except to your person who missed my great song caption there which is the only one I know. No apart from that I'm doing very well thank you Catherine very well. I enjoyed the Injured The Tennis yesterday in particular and can't wait to talk about it. I've just realised
that I think I have mislocation Matt Roberts. I wasn't going to bring it up but you have. I am normally in Richmond but this weekend for my dad's birthday back home at my parents and we've been treated with a double full and winning week so my dad's very happy. Nice birthday present. We don't we don't talk about football Matt not after our West Brom experience David David David took us for a West Brom night out on Thursday a lovely chilly nil nil. Yeah thanks very much
David. You're welcome. I would like to point out that Scott Parker has a lot of the blame for that nil nil. Wasn't all West Brom. I'm a manager Matt hates him. All right let's get into the tennis. We are here mostly to talk about the WTO Finals in ReAD will also in part to three of the show be looking ahead to the ATP Finals in Turin. The draw of course has been done. The iconic photo has been done more on that later but we start in ReAD where Coco Gough has won her biggest titles
since the US Open last year picking up the biggest check of her career. Frankly of anyone's career the biggest ever prize money check for a tour sanctioned event $4.8 million via her victory over Jun Chen Wen in an extraordinary final yesterday. 366476 she beat a very ragged arena sabotein Karin a not high quality but extremely compelling semi final Jun beating a Bob Or a Kree Cheek of her in her semi final and David this match was just it was everything you want from a from a final
of a premium event. Yeah not the biggest title of course Coco Gough has won having won the US Open but the prize money obviously is just record breaking for a sanctioned event but but it felt like a grand slam final that that's what it what it felt like to me anyway and it just had it had a rivalry that that makes me just want more and more and more because they are such a good contrast. I do think Jun Chen Wen should have won that match she was ahead in all the sets and had the
chances to win she served for it. I absolutely love watching her play and that's not that I don't love watching Coco Gough but in a tight and an entirely different way. I think Coco Gough is one of those admirable players. I think I've ever seen really she's right up there with the great competitors and athletes on in tennis history I think even now at this still pretty early stage in her career but she she's making you beat her that's that's the the the the juke the just just
of her game really whereas Jun Chen Wen is all about the damage she can inflict on the opponent and I just love the way she goes about it and and as a rivalry that we haven't really seen anything off before just that one clay court meeting this this one had everything back and forth
deciding set tie break brilliant. He's absolutely right there Matt isn't he David when he says that on the face of it that this match should have been Jun Chen Wen's you know she it felt like she was kind of a head all the way and yet that's what we always say about big Coco Gough matches this is how by and large she wins her big tennis matches and it's it's not a coincidence is it that
we end up giving that analysis after them. That's right yeah and Jun Chen Wen in her post match final press conference was talking about how it was a it was a lot more kind of physical match than she was expecting you know she's used to being able to take charge of points and dominate with her
serve and her forehand and those weapons and normally enough for her to win points without kind of almost expending that much energy but here she was dragged into a three hour match and three hour epic a gripping contest by by Coco Gough and I think that all sort of slightly contributed to
the feeling of slight sort of tension and nervousness that Jun had down that stretch where when she served for the match she she was a little bit error prone in in in that game and I think it was because of the way Gough had pushed her to the limit and the way she sort of made her a bit more
nervous than she would be in other matchups because she kind of knows she has to go for more and that's hard to do in in high pressure moments and Gough's Gough's body language is something that that Matt Futterman has been extremely sort of concerned with maybe maybe all year when I've
been talking to him watching Gough you know he's he's less concerned about the game like we know that Gough does have some technical weaknesses but it's the way that in the past when she was at her most successful she was able to cover that all up that all up by her body language and her sort of
grit and her fight and that kind of went a bit missing in the summer you know she kind of lost that she was getting down on herself this week her her body language was so positive throughout and really notable in in the semi-final against Sabahlenker and then in the final against Jun and
it kind of there was a kind of effect that that kind of positivity I think ended up meaning that her game wasn't sort of breaking down either like her her game has looked so much better since the US Open she's kind of had the the sort of turn around that we really only talk about as being
possible like during and off season and you know if we think back to the US Open her serve was a mess her forehand was a mess her her attitude her body language in these matches wasn't right and it's been a transformation really in these last few months the forehand was awesome in in this
final really great depth on the ball a lot of the time not coughing up errors the serve was under control she's beaten Shfiam Tek in this tournament who we know is kind of her nemesis I think she's taking a lot of confidence from that and she's ended the season with the highest win percentage that
she's ever had in a WTA tour season and really sort of turned around how we were think all feeling about her heading into the new year it's been a pretty pretty remarkable few months with with new coach Matt Matt daily and yeah it was it was so impressive the way she knuckled down in those
in those really big moments and didn't didn't give anything away and that that is such a cocoa goff trademark when she's at her best Charlie I know you weren't out in re-ad for the final but you were out there for the starter the event so you you saw this version of cocoa goff up
close from the sidelines do you buy into your colleague Matt Futterman's body language theory of cocoa goff and was that something was that an impression you were struck by from being there yeah I would never argue with Matt's analysis of human behaviour he's the son of
a psychiatrist I think or a psychoanalyst and you can see he's got similar he's similarly perceptive yeah I mean I think what was impressive as well was she wanted some very different atmospheres I mean the first her first match was it was that day where you know it was really
empty and you know she was put that was the Jessica Beguda match and it's one of those matches where you kind of just got to get yourself pumped up and she was able to do that far better than what Beguda was then obviously it kind of the tournament goes on and the interest builds and she's
playing you know that's a kind of different pressure especially against Joong who you know has such a big following out there so she was able to kind of deal with what at times felt like quite a part of that atmosphere I mean she definitely looks her death her whole kind of
vibe if I think about it how she was like with the media in Riyadh compared to in New York when there was so much tension like that there's such a specific kind of tension for a defending champion who everyone kind of knows isn't gonna win especially if they're at their home slam and
she really felt that like because we were all just waiting for this big story to happen which was she was gonna lose but we but it we it sort of also wasn't that big a story because we knew it was coming at some point here she seemed a lot more happy a lot more relaxed I mean you know we saw
at Wimbledon that tension kind of spill out mid match with her coaches you know it was pretty awkward it was pretty clear for everyone to see and in a way it was a surprise that it carried on as long as it did and it does feel like now she's got a bit of that to use a football cliche new
manager bounce like she's coming and she's got this new team and it has it's really changed things for her I definitely think her demeanor has changed and I was gonna say something to Matt I do think this now really does change how we view her year because I think otherwise it really would have
been characterized as a big letdown after having won her first major the previous year and you know that really sticky run after the French Open to the US Oak which was kind of ended by the US Open all that was maybe the na dear of it so I do think now we can look at it as actually well
she's finished it really strongly she had that French Open semi semi in Australia it's you know by most players standards it's a really good year and she continues to break records for winning things at the age she's at which again I think we forget because she started so ridiculousy early but it's just great to see her looking like she's enjoying it again because I think that joy in New York and to an extent a Wimbledon just looked like it had completely gone.
It was the two youngest players in the field wasn't it in the in the final which was which was pretty cool to see. On the the new manager bounce and what you've described about you know her managing to achieve kind of the the offseason effect in you know what who knows who knows when she she she and Matt daily worked whatever magic they've worked together I know there's
been there's been a slight grip change hasn't there which is something that he seems to specialise in um do we then do we do we take from that to think okay well that's what she's achieved without any downtime imagine what she's going to be able to achieve with that new team in the offseason you
know extrapolate that out to however many weeks you get in the offseason or do do we think oh balls the the offseason is coming at just the wrong time for her as is so often the case with people that have a great run at the very end of a season what do you think David good question um because
hearing various pundits over the last 18 months couple of years go some of some of whom believed that she needed a full rebuild and others who who reckon that that's just not necessary and and ridiculous and that she needs to kind of make the tweaks on the job and that's effectively
what she is doing she's she's brought somebody in who seems to specialise in this area that's working I I don't know whether whether it helps or not really because how much do you tweak from here this is working now do you want to make massive changes from here I dare say they've got a good plan
and I think what she's achieved this this week and in in the weeks that have led up to it but particularly this week is is some locker room aura now because so many players were very clear in their mind of how you beat cocoa goff get her that forehand it'll break down hang in there the double
thoughts will come these are the two things and and it was working for them and and now suddenly she's beaten all the power all the players that typically would beat her and she's beating them in slightly different ways to normal you know they haven't just been hang around and hope your
opponent capitulates I mean there is that but she's her forehand has been so much more reliable in the in the exchanges that you just can't afford to just target that and become predictable so I think that that going into a new season puts puts a different context to the mind games that
go on when you get out on the court but from both sides of the net and and she she'll come into the season feeling different I think and she's also building up this incredible finals aura as well the only player that has been able to beat a cocoa goff in a final is eager shion take a roll on
garros which is arguably you know the the most solid pick in all of women's tennis at the moment it is an extraordinary finals record that that cocoa goff has has been able to build up here Charlie yeah and I mean I imagine it is something her opponents are aware of it was certainly if
you something she's aware of that must give her so much confidence going into those matches I mean yeah that is a kind of real clash of the Titans pitting that record against the gashvian take the French open you know as you say that's pretty much the scariest person you'd want to play in a
final as well yeah I'm I find the kind of momentum thing so interesting because it can definitely go both ways and I guess there's also an extent to which in some cases players have momentum at the end of the year because other players aren't really pushing themselves so much because you know
they're pacing themselves for January I mean we've seen that how often did we see you know a player would win the ATP finals but you're still not thinking necessarily that means that's going to carry on into Australia when you know jokovic federal whoever it is a bit full pal I don't necessarily
think that this time I mean I don't think sabalenca had a foot off the gas necessarily I think she would have I mean she played a weird match but I but but that it's not like that can't happen at Grand Slam's I know it happens a lot less now I'd still make her the big favorite the Australian open
but I think she was desperate to win this event and kind of rubber stamp that world number one end of year status it you know it didn't feel like you know play other players were lacking motivation but I guess we'll see in January I don't think yeah I don't think it sort of transforms her into
the favorite for that event I still have sabalenca comfortably the favorite there but it definitely puts her in the conversation in a way that if she'd kind of gone out in the groups here and just sort of ended the year limply I think there would have been big question marks about her going into
that I think what the post us open period is done on the WTA tour has it really has set up 2025 fantastically well because you know we're in a situation where golf is yet riding this wave right now we're back in her it's going to be working with Granny Benissovich there's some there's
a real injection of intrigue there she's fiontech with win for set likewise sabalenca has has carried on the form that we all know she's got and goes into the new year as the world number one for the first time and then junxin when as well like let's not forget her like she was awesome in
this match in this tournament in this post us open period and then there's the usual WTA like sort of wild cards like we we know that name yes are always out there being that yeah there's dormant volcanoes they're all there and then there's the young players like Schneider and and Draver
Collins is playing on can palini keep going and like all of these players and questions have feel that they've become more sort of prominent and relevant since the us open and that's that's not always something that happens sometimes there is a real sort of just come down but I don't
know people in their own way are sort of picking up and and getting quite ready and excited for the new season I think I think it's just a fascinating fascinating time right now just finally here on on junxin when she's reached the grand slam final this year she's won a 1000 event she's
reached the WTA finals final the next kind of step for her the next benchmark is a grand slam title is she is she there would you be surprised to see her win one in 2025 Charlie is nodding quite emphatically you is junxin when guy what not I think she's been like if I think of the stories
or the people that have emerged this year that I've most enjoyed I think she's right up there she's I think she's great fun I think she's a very engaging personality she's a really interesting player to watch it's always so difficult predict like that next step there's no reason she won't know I
I certainly wouldn't be surprised to see her doing it I mean the nature of the WTA talk is that it's not always those incremental gains though you do just get players coming out of nowhere and winning a grand slam that you don't see so I don't think it's a guarantee but the way as well she's
how often as well have we seen a player often at the Australian Open kind of get to a final but it feels a bit flash in the pan and it doesn't it's not really sustainable whereas that and for a little bit you know maybe it looked like that would be the case with her because you know she had
some if your results went out early at Wimbledon and maybe some people thought oh maybe she won't build on it the way she has built on it and established herself as one of her established herself as one of the players you know pretty consistently I'm just really curious to find out yeah and
no it certainly wouldn't surprise she's she's she's not far away at all and just just finally on on the tennis what you saw the tennis when you're out in re-ad any other any other kind of impressions that that jumped out of you things that feel things that you've kind of bookmarked for for 2025 well
there are some takes that've already kind of aged back because while watching it I did think Sabelink is aura I mean that was one of the things being there as well I found her aura so interesting like she absolutely carried herself like the world number one like the year end while
none one even before she'd confirmed it to me she just felt like wow she's really separated herself from the field and then obviously by semi-final she chucks in the terrible forms and goes out I think you know someone like you mentioned Rebecca and her Matt it was good to see her
playing and being competitive and maybe laying down some foundations she was well I certainly felt watching I was like I'm gonna be really interested to see again is this is this a moment that we bookmarked it out okay that's when she kind of reasserted herself a little bit or is it again
with her just a kind of moment in time and then she's out of the Australian open and it doesn't really mean a lot but yeah those were some of the things that stuck out I mean she on tick as well I would put in that category of that felt like building blocks I know even though she went out
in the group stage and again there were some very ropey moments and she started really slowly against Krocheek of her but I did at least feel like she was doing some slightly different things and you know the sort of things we've been crying out for for a long time just you know not just
resorting to the same kind of root one approach and that was quite encouraging given how early it on it is in the Fisette partnership and that partnership is so intriguing because you know partner an amazing player with an amazing coach it should yield great results but it doesn't always work
like that but either way it'll be quite interesting I think and Charlie done a really a really good deep dive on Wim Fisette as a coach which is available on the athletic and the New York times if you want to drill down a bit into what he might potentially bring to the Gershion Tech Party in 2025 that's a great place to go right we will be back in part two with some reflections on the tournament as a whole.
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Distributed by ALPS distributors Inc. Welcome back to part two where we are still joined by Charlie Accushert of the athletic who was out in Rhea and is able to give us a perspective that that we haven't been able to quite frankly the experience on the ground of being being at that tournament Charlie I'm sure you went in with with a lot of expectations a lot of. Curiosity. Perhaps some trepidation as well how how is the experience and how have you come away from it.
I mean it's a weird one in some ways because people often say to you like you can't judge these places until you go you have to go and see for yourself and there's a truth in that though what I would say is that my experience as a white western journalist is very different from someone from a mind. I'm a minority group who lives there so yes I can tell you I had a really good experience I was really well looked after everything well like clockwork facilities were great.
But that's kind of my experience and I don't think I'm really. Where are you know I find it really uncomfortable when you know you'll talk to people who. Work be they players or be they people who are out there doing ambassadorial work and they'll tell you but you know we've been so welcome here you know everyone's been so serious and sound like yeah I'm sure.
I'm sure they are well I wouldn't they be you know you're a big name and you're coming and sort of bigging up this country so yeah they will welcome you. But I was also I just felt really conflicted throughout really especially I've been working on a big piece which I think we've got today. I'm looking at the various different angles and as part of that talk to people who.
You used to live there or you know no people who still do live there and you know it's a very mixed picture because while some people. You know obviously really love the fact that the country has been modernized in in some ways with things like women now being allowed to drive or drive or dress codes being relaxed you know and things like that and there are concerts now and there are big sporting events.
But profoundly a lot of things haven't changed and have actually got worse and a lot of people feel very uncomfortable with that term sports washings kind of some people feel a bit uncomfortable with that maybe it's a bit of use but but this idea of kind of using events to.
There's you know rather than actually opening up discussion they often serve the opposite purpose really because what you're doing is kind of celebrating the country and saying look how much it's changed and look how great it is you know engagement is great if you actually went out there and said you know it's great to be in Saudi Arabia it's great that so many young women are playing tennis because that you know and that's why I thought constantly during I was like two things can be true at once it's great that more young women are playing.
It's great that they're having access to these female legends of the sport that will hopefully be really inspiring to them and and the figure the participation figures and that are really impressive and well done to the Saudi tennis federation.
But in amongst all of that there are far bigger issues and I think what a lot of people said you know they would as much as it's great to play tennis a lot of people would you know some people would rather have kind of freedom of speech and the ability to express themselves and it's a lot of people.
And it's this kind of social contract from the very top from man had been some and the crown prince of kind of you can have these nice things just don't ask for anything more don't say anything against me and you're kind of be okay. And so yeah I just I found I found it all very conflicting like I say but I'm really pleased I was able to go out there not because I do think I was not like I experienced the real Saudi Arabia in my nice air condition shutter bus from the high.
Hotel to the tennis center but I'm glad I went there because it really got me thinking and engaged in caring about these issues which I did anyway but in a slightly different way and especially when you actually start talking like one of the people I'm into for the pieces the sister of one of the women who who campaign for the driving ban to be overturned who was then thrown in jail for three years.
And is now under a tribal tribal ban living in Saudi Arabia you know and those perspectives are very chilling and I opening and I and I think that's why for a lot of it I was thinking more about that stuff than the tennis necessarily which.
Felt sort of secondary like it that you know and I guess that is a shame because you do want to be thinking about that the sport rather than everything around it and I think that's you know that's why I genuinely feel sympathy for like fans of Newcastle United have been taken over by the Saudi public investment fund because I think I was struggle to separate the two and I I just think that's a real shame that.
Geopolitics is now so into 200 sport and as much as you try it can be hard to get away from it so it's a fascinating perspective child and I know I know you've got to go just just lastly cocoa go obviously the eventual champion of this event she she was the one that was prepared most.
To engage with those geopolitical issues and tensions on on the eve of this event she said she did have reservations she said she would be constantly reviewing her her preparedness to to compete in this part of the world and she'd be wanting to see change. As a result of the WTA choosing to go though which is absolutely a laudable thing to say the issue is the the impressions on which she'll be basing that assessment how reliable those impressions can ever be do you think it's possible ever.
For for the impression for the experience that people going there the players the journalist everybody else going there for this kind of tournament where everything's going to be laid on as you've described to ever get. A picture of the country that actually accurately reflects the reality.
I mean I thought what coca goff said was very commendable. I mean just to get it if she wants a little spoiler the US State Department's most recent annual report on human rights practices for Saudi Arabia literally the very first line in the executive summary reads there was no significant changes to the human rights situation Saudi Arabia during the year it then lists it's about 250 words of pretty apparent things that have happened there.
And I have a lot of sympathy for golf because basically yeah I mean she even acknowledge she said didn't she she was like I'm going to be asking you know all I can do is ask people and take their word for it. Coca goff is not going to have the time or the ability and probably not the intonation to really be digging deep into these issues bearing in mind as well that no one even if she wanted to I mean even if she took on a role in her spare time and is an investigative journalist which is not.
Pretty ludicrous thing to suggest but even if you do that no one there will kind of talk to you for fear of reprise or anyway you're having to go sort of steps removed if she did that then yeah she might get an impression of what the country is like in reality for a lot of people obviously she's not going to do that and I'm not in any way criticizing her she will do the best she can realistically which is to ask people adjacent to the event.
But everyone's sort but who who's adjacent the event is impartial because you know they are there to put on an attenis event the p i f is you know the event is presented by the p i f just owned by man or been some and is head of that organization.
So I don't really see who the kind of impartial Saudis that she would be able to speak to will be in that although she could read the State Department report there if she wanted to or you know hear from human rights organizations etc and but again I feel I don't feel like I mean in some ways there's disappointment the players I guess my expectations were really low and again having seen how this plays out in.
And that's why again when people say like engagement is the way forward it's like well yes impartial engagement is the way forward engagement when you are in the case of say live goal for new castle united on the payroll of these organizations they are the last people who are going to beat why would you bite the hand that feed you in some cases you can't because there are literally agreements in place like this is what happened with live golf where in non disparagement clothes.
Where you can't say anything even if you want to which I should say isn't the case here you know and Portia arch was very clear the players weren't briefed on you know what they couldn't say about Saudi Arabia which you know has that's been confirmed you know I spoke to people close to players etc but it can be unspoken right you know like if you're you likely to go and criticize a country where you're paying being paid millions of dollars to be there you might you have to be very courageous I think to do that.
Especially when you're in a country where you know that can be a pretty serious crackdown on the cent. So I just I find the yeah all of those arguments Just don't really stand up to scrutiny and I guess I just I became a bit dissolution with hearing the same thing Said again and again when
Yeah, certainly like that engagement thing. I'm just you know and look you know look at the WTA talk and point to the fact They've been in you know countries like Qatar places at Abu Dhabi Dubai for many many years I don't really think that's you know maybe you know those countries have modernized in a vertical must to an extent in that time I feel that's fairly if But really they're much the same as what they were and I don't think tennis events are gonna profoundly change those countries
China, I mean the idea that kind of Having some tennis events there is gonna profoundly change that country and obviously this is a bit different because this is a kind of Blue Ribbon event and again should commend the WTA
Have done you know, they've been loads of great initiatives really really great things for young women And some you know people with disabilities and things like this like they've read the engagement has been has been very good But I think also by being there you are tacitly or otherwise kind of
contributing to a perception that this country is Modernizing it's open for business and it's changing and and all of these things where naturally all Indications from impartial observers all people who have witnessed kind of the power of the state first hand
We're telling it's not really profoundly changing in many ways getting worse so yeah, I mean That's kind of where I am on it and yeah, like I said the thing that just kept going through my mind was that two things can be true at the same time And so I I don't think
You know and people say as well things like You know we we respect all Different ways of operating and things like that and you need to reset the culture and of course that's true You know, I don't think anyone's suggesting you go to Saudi Arabia and
You wear shorts or whatever in a place of religious significance Clearly that's disrespectful and no one would dream of doing that but I Don't think that should sort of and there's a you're very wary of a Westerner of being Orientalist and kind of having this superiority complex and
You know kind of dismissing cultural or religious Perspectives because they are profound and they're important and it's not for us to say those are right or wrong But what again people from human rights organization saying like that is all true
But you know things like freedom of speech. That's not a kind of Western construct that or freedom from torture Those are things that everyone's entitled to So yeah, I mean they're just incredibly complex issues and Yeah, I mean for Coco Gough She can see and I guess when she you know she can see how things are next year, but I imagine
Profoundly or you look at the country as a whole. They'll be they'll be pretty similar I would have thought and you can kind of see the effect of like of the normalization of of Sport being in Saudi Arabia through Coco Gough's first press conference and her final press conference where in the first one as we said those human rights issues were absolutely front and center and
We said she spoke so impressively and she was measured and thoughtful and understanding and and she was she was brilliant on the subject And then you get her final press conference and I'm absolutely not blaming Coco Gough for this
It's just the way that it works her final press conference when she's just one She's describing her experience at the place as 10 out of 10 and nothing but positives to say and how great it was that the crowd were Charing for her and that is that is the sports washing in effect right there
That is absolutely the kind of purpose as Charlie saying of bringing these events into into the country and As I said, I'm not blaming Coco Gough for that and I do think the impression that she is going to end up with Of the country as Charlie's brilliantly described there is is is almost certainly not going to be A real one, but it will be the one that she's told about and the one that she has experienced and
It's just what happens like we've seen it in in so many sports now and and now this is tennis is first like real sort of taste of it There was actually a moment like related that made my blood run cold a little bit and again I'm not criticizing her necessarily but Sabileanka was asked for her
Perspectives on the country and the adjective she used to describe it was chill found it really chill I just thought like If you wanted an example of kind of how different the experience of a kind of you know elite level athlete compared to a lot of people in that like chill It's about as far as a
adjective I use Described the experience for a lot of people and And yeah, to me it just kind of laid bare that sort of disconnect between our experiences people who go You know be that as players or or even you know obviously not anywhere near the same extent to me But you know my experience was lovely really nice. You know stayed in a very nice hotel
And what it's actually like for a lot of people. Yeah, I just found that Yeah, that just sort of brought it home to me I think Charlie that's a All be it slightly chilling but an absolutely fascinating insight and We're really really grateful for it. So thank you. We'll we'll let you can do some parenting on this on this fine Sunday Unexpected amount of positivity towards Newcastle United from from you today Yeah, I honestly it's more more sympathy, but yeah
Um, thanks very much. Thanks very much. Charlie. We're we're very grateful and We'll speak to you again soon. I think on the ATP finals next week. So Enjoy a week of tennis and we'll speak to you soon and we'll be back in parts three to talk about the ATP finals Hey, I'm Ryan Reynolds at Mid mobile. We like to do the opposite of what big wireless does They charge you a lot. We charge you a little so naturally when they announce that be raising their prices due to inflation
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Welcome back to part three where in just a moment's time we will be heading to Turin to look ahead to the ATP finals But first some important business I'll leave it to Matt Roberts to bring you news of the doubles at the WTA finals over to you Matt
Well, I hate to say I told you so but Gabriella de Braus Confirmed good She and Erin Routliff have won the title unbeaten five or no they beat Catarina Signeur Covertayletowns end in the final and after say as you know Obviously, I've got my de Brausky is good bit, but I think Erin Routliff was the Was the MVP and and the star of of this final
She's got quite a laid back approach. She's she's She's very tall and yet she doesn't sort of bend her knees all that much She can be quite deceptive she can kind of look like she's not putting that much effort in but she's got these incredible hands and she came up with so many brilliant pickups in this match and De Brausky and Routliff all Tournament had this ability to suffer a setback and immediately bounce back and and and until to get it together again and actually De Brausky lost her
Opening service game in every single match that they played five out of five and yet they still chose to serve first in the final and Happened again she lost serve again straight away and you kind of thinking what is this as a tactic but they're so Sure with what they're doing and you know they just broke back immediately and kind of got on with it It was it was really kind of impressive how they dovetail with one another They're quite different personalities and and as I said
De Brausky's really proactive and trying to make things happen on the court Whereas Routliff's a bit more a bit more laid back and and relaxed, but it was big for them It was Wimbledon Wimbledon revenge. They lost the Wimbledon final to Townsend and Ciniacover, but they won this one and And Ciniacover who'd hit maybe the shot of the tournament to win the semi final an incredible cross-court passing shot back and
She was kind of off her game in in the final. She she didn't really have it And and Routliff and De Brausky absolutely dominated on on the second serve return or match and Worthy worthy winners and you know, it's it's a life-changing amount of money for doubles players, you know
I think it's half a million each that they've earned from winning that that is that's one of the reasons what the reason why the WTA Went there really, you know money, you know, they can talk as much as they like about um engagement and and and a desire to to really make a difference but the principal reason why they went there is is money and there is a tangible benefit of that to the players and You know that is that is absolutely a big deal for
especially players like De Brausky and Routliff who aren't earning huge money on the tour all year round so yeah just a massive massive moment for them and me He's got he's got De Brausky takes he's got De Brausky stats He truly is you're you're one stop shop for Gabby De Brausky Everything
Right we turn our attention to to Rin now and the ATP finals which get underway and earnest in just a few hours time The draw was done a couple of days ago We have the Illy Nostazi group and the John Newcomb group The Illy Nostazi group features Yannickson a Daniel Medvedev
Taylor Fritz and Alex Domenor the John Newcomb group is Carlos Alcras and Alexander Veriv Caspar Rude and Andre Routliff So we start this afternoon with Medvedev against Fritz and this evening we have sinner against Domenor from the Nostazi group
And then tomorrow it's the Newcomb group starting with Alcras Rude and it's Veriv Routliff My biggest impression looking at this draw was that I was quite unmoved by it But then I looked at it and I thought I can't really think what combination of players I would have been moved by
Like there weren't really other than Alcras sinner There isn't a match up in there that I I'm desperate to try and make happen Or desperately looking forward to there was no thought of I hope these two are drawn together I looked at it and I thought oh there's some interesting matches in there but like The draw itself felt pretty inconsequential to me is that is that rough on the ATP finals David or my is there something I'm not not getting Are you more hyped about some of these match ups?
Not really and I suspect some people listening to this would be you know I think there are people that will look at this draw and be really pumped about it I would say the only match that really I I will be making sure no matter what I managed to see will be Alcras against Veriv
Because they've played each other at two grand slams this year they've they've won one each They've both been very close and and I kind of want to see that again A lot of the others I feel like I know what I'm getting already and and and I think the biggest thing for me is it all feels very samey
All of the all of the players Alcras aside really even sinner Is good he's just a sort of better level Version of all of the others really because they're all so similar they play the same They play these incredibly solid baseline games they move well they hit well
I don't I don't want to sound like I'm criticizing them because they're brilliant at what they do I just find it hard to get massively excited by what they do I I think story wise Diminora's is the one I'm most interested in because he's new and We know how much it's meant to him for so long to get into this company And I think it was really bored align whether he ever would and in fact I think a lot of us I would have doubted that he would have managed to get to this point so well done to him
And I really want to see how he gets on um and and and I think he he has because of His game style and because of the limitations. I think he's seen His game style put on him. He's kind of
Evolved his game style. He's become more attacking. He goes to the net more he hits flat down the lines So I think he will know that he needs needs to do different stuff in order to to come out on top of that group and make progress but it is the The difference between a generation that has established itself and a generation behind that I am genuinely excited about Along with our Kraz and Sinner of course But there's a group that I'm really really looking forward seeing in the future
But they're just not at this level yet. Maybe they never will be and I and I realize that that makes it sound like I'm
Being a little un a little harsh with these guys because they've got there. I just personally Find some of them against one another at this event at not a greatly appetizing prospect Hmm, I think there's a lot of things going on with With why this isn't the most compelling lineup that there's been at the ATP finals I think the point David makes about the stylistic similarity is a big one is is the first year that there's not been a single Hander at the ATP finals ever
You know and you know we've had sort of obviously Federer for a long time in holding the thought down there But also wavering cur and team and sits surpassing recent years and naturally a single hand They're just sort of bringing something a little bit different into the equation and so that's that's one thing It's the first time without a member of the big three since 2001 and look a lot of people got tired of how long the big three went on for
But it's absolutely no doubt that having them there adds Gravitas to an event and I think You know it's a it's I get why know about jokovic is not playing but if you put know about jokovic in this field It does get more interesting to me because you know he's playing one of sinner and alcharez in the group You've just got that big match in the group stages, which we don't really have And then there's also the thing that
Country to the WTA finals where we had a lot of players coming in there particularly junction when in amazing form and and breaking into that top eight and feeling like a threat The ones we've got who just do just made the ATP finals are not in great form Rubelev is not playing that well rude has been really poor since the French open dimmer nor Has picked up a little bit again, but he's kind of been injured since since Wimbledon
And then he's just been fit enough to get in and he's done really well. I agree with David. He's a He's an exciting player to watch I think and and I'm really pleased that he's in this company now But I don't think he's absolutely at his best having just returned to the tour again
And Medvedev is not as an exciting proposition as he has been in previous years We're getting him against sinner for about the 88th time this year And like we know we know what that looks like we know how that goes pretty much and we know that Medvedev's not playing well enough really these days to To threaten sinner and alcharez in in the big big matches
So in in a way that he did use to absolutely threaten the very very best players in the world. So There's just this slight combination of all these things I think Creating a field that isn't screaming with excitement now We may well end up playing the matches and they may well end up being a lot better than I think they're going to be I think seeing sinner in charine is going to be exciting and and having the crowd behind him alcharez is always
Exciting he can he can kind of carry a group or an event virtually on his own, but like there are Those reasons why this field is is slightly less appealing to me, but Hopefully it's it's it's way better. Maybe it's good to go in with no expectations and be and be pleasantly surprised Good good positive spin Um Yeah, you know it's not a thrilling drawday and the most exciting thing that that happened with the revelation at Taylor Fritz's ditched his bleached hair
Ha ha ha ha ha do to unexpectedly high levels of maintenance. Have you seen that?
Oh, is that the reason pause in a where are that yeah, yeah? He said he said that the routes were he said when he first said it And he thought it looked great he was thrilled Uh, and then the route started coming in and patches of it started going yellow Um, we saw that and uh, yeah Yeah And uh, yeah, the upkeep required was um Was a bit of a shock I think um and their headdress is suggested that The own There was no way around that if you wanted to continue down the bleached path
So he's re dyed it to his natural color. What a what a brief sojourn into being a wild haircut person and and speaking of um Appearances have have you seen that? Alchres has been in his Nicholas Jerry nasal strip era during practice which Which perhaps is a sign of some respiratory issues that he's having and I hope he isn't under the weather But he's been he's been donning one of those in oh practice just Making a point to that in case he's a disaster
Good news is if he wins Matt has uh nasal strips at the ready for uh for a bit He's had them in his Nicholas Jerry back pocket for a while and used they might be out of date by now But Matt is prepared for a nasal strips bit whenever one might become relevant
Um, okay, who do we think are coming through these groups David I would have thought Sinner Probably Medvedev our Krazansvarev I think really I mean I think there's a chance for Fritz I would be surprised if Diminor would have upset enough of them Um and Rud and Rudlev just don't feel like they're in good enough form to me Mm-hmm Yeah, I agree with that. I feel pretty confident about our Krazansvarev
I feel obviously confident about Sinner. I would go Medvedev but I think Fritz has Fritz has got a big chance Yeah, I'm afraid I agree that's not very fun. Is it but there we go uh the doubles draw we have the Bob Brian group and the Mike Brian group And the Bobbone group is Arravalo and Pavic Baleleva Vasori, Bopana Ebtan and Kravitz Puts
And the Mike Brian group is Grenoia Zabios, Kuhlhoff Mettich, Pilsil Thompson and Heliivara Patten Um, so we will keep an eye on all of that singles and doubles and we'll be back as we are at the WTA finals To wrap up the group stages of the ATP finals and look ahead to the the semis and the finals
Um, you don't have to wait till then for podcasts though We are back on Tuesday with our Billie Jean King Cup finals preview Uh, honestly just refresh your feeds pretty much every day from this point onwards because we have a lot of podcasts coming away And we're looking forward to all of them
Uh, we had Metz this week Benjamin Bonzi winning the title he beat Camnory in the final um, obviously tough to lose the final but a A strong end to what's been a pretty torrid season for for Camnory um on the injury and just total loss of form front so um Yeah big week for both of them Shapa Vallev won the title in Belgrade he beat Majedavitch in the final um PS I think Majedavitch somebody that hasn't happened this year in a way that we all thought he would
After the next gen finals last year he's somebody I'm I'm going to be watching closely in 2025 We have a mascot for this episode to that mascot is Bronco a three-year-old beagle purebred says owner Andrea Which was recently learned via one of those doggy DNA tests my sister got me for Christmas great gift He was rescued as a stray most likely a failed hunting dog Uh, and is now living his best life in Washington DC like all good hounds. He loves sniffing everyone and everything street snacks
Uh rolling in grass and a good long nap. I don't know what a street snack is um, I mean for for my parents dog rosier street snack is literally anything found on the streets sort of cigarette butts tissues discarded crisp wrappers um Billy Jean is is slightly more discerning so yeah not sure what the bronco is eating off the street but Good luck to him. He's absolutely gorgeous. This is a stunning picture. We've been sent. He's got what looks to me like cherry blossom
Sort of blooming over here. He's looking up into the camera with soulful eyes um, he's just lovely beagles are They're absolutely stunning dogs and um um When I back in the day when I volunteered at um, Batsy dog home there were a lot of beagles in there that were um gorgeous dogs But yeah, I think failed failed hunting dogs um, so you've done a wonderful thing by rescuing bronco and giving him what looks like
Just a lovely lovely life. So thank you bronco and thank you Andrea keep enjoying those streets snacks Um, hello to our mascots of course uh, the dearly departed dog in for me Francis for David Hyder and Soma for Matt in um in cat news Just speaking of Hyder and Soma and Francis um, Billy Jean chased a cat up up a tree this morning um and It it looked pretty to quote Savile Enca the cat looked pretty chill up there, but I am
um after this podcast ends going to go down and check that the cat got down from the tree. Okay um uh Billy Jean cat terrorism fame is sponsored by Billie Jean King and Elana Claus Hello to our top folks and executive producers Chris Greg Jamie and Jeff and it's over to Matt for some shoutouts
I was just going to say the cat is taking the advice of the internet Which is very much That to get away from predators you need to be able to climb a tree Catherine and I ended up watching a lot of David Attenborough this week with with Billy Jean Just because that's an extremely fun time seeing Billy Jean react to all the animals on the on the tele and you know
Big monitor lizard comes on the screen. So naturally Catherine and I end up googling what to do if you're getting chased by a commode a dragon And it's quite concerning how the how the advice is Climate tree as though that's the thing that um humans can just do Hmm
Sorry, that's a massive tank. Yeah Yeah, the answer to can a human outrun Insert terrifying animal here is invariably no so try and find a tree to climb Hmm Anyway, so let's do some shoutouts We have Olivia Rizzo in Rochester, New York Hello, Olivia. What a name Great name Um like Olivia Nichols who is in the Billy Jean King cup Gb squad and like Olivia Gidecki who's in the Australia squad
You two are flying. Big tournament for Olivia's wow. I don't think we're going to find any Rizzo's that is a fantastic name I love that a lot Makes me think of Greece obviously if you see in Greece Matt Hmm Okay, good. I don't even have it seen big Olivia is also from Greece I the actor of the Indian John Hmm. Oh, yeah, very very good David's Um lovely. Thank you Olivia We've also got BJ rogers and Erin Galaway Hey hi BJ. Hello BJ great uh great initials Yeah, and Erin like Erin Erin route lift
MVP in the WCA finals doubles final. Oh, that's controversial Well, no Matt said it Yes, true Matt He's got a new fave. Sorry, Galway What do we know about BJ and Erin? Well, we we met BJ and Erin at the US Open this year at the end of the Mazzetti Naka Shima match on on stadium 17 They are they're from the Boston area Very well, but they'd travel around North America in their small RV which is called Rosie Oh, I do remember this
Super oh, that's that is wonderful. What a life that's fabulous. Thank you BJ and Erin. Yeah, thanks guys And finally we have Tamara Gleini we know Tamara. Oh Oh Hi, Tamara. We know Tamara We sure do you have been spot in the city? Like tomorrow catch
Tomorrow Gleini's had tomorrow call patch before hasn't she? I'm so sorry, but I think I think tomorrow call patches funny enough to be reusable I just Sorry tomorrow call patch, but I just laugh at the mere mention of your name You cannot play professional Oh Don't know
Well tomorrow would also like to shout out her oldest grandchild Ella whose 12 loves tennis and is showing some talent playing in local junior tournaments Tamara says she has a proper serve and a nasty left-handed top spin forehand Go on Ella sounds like Ben Shelton Hmm My hoglands
That's awesome go on Ella. Thank you tomorrow if you're um you'll continue to in constant support to the pod. We love it Thank you tomorrow BJ Erin and Olivia Uh, if you'd like to get yourself an intro or a shout out you can do that by following the link in our show notes become a friend of the podcast at Uh intro or shout out level as I said refresh your feeds pretty much daily from this point onwards
We're not quite every day for the next two weeks, but it's not far off folks Sure Sometimes refresh twice today with Yeah, both the tennis season and we are going out with a bang in 2024 So yeah, keep refreshing your feeds. We'll be back on Tuesday with a billy gene king cup Preview mutt will be in mile go. We can't wait folks. We will speak to you then
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