Will Rybakina’s title be the first of many?

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Well, hello and welcome to the Tennis Podcast. We are back. We can't get enough. Tennis can't get enough. David, how are you doing? Great. Great, thanks.

We are doing a lot of tennis podcasts at the moment, aren't we? But yes, that's what happens anyway at this time of year. Oh, and then we decided to say yes to Jack Draper's... request to be on the tennis podcast and uh so we did that and it was great Yeah, we are the Lorenzo Mazzetti of the podcasting world, except our qualification for Turin is already confirmed as we come to you in part one.

We don't know if Lorenzo Mazzetti is going to Turin. By the time we get to part two, we will know. But right now, we don't know. And he doesn't know. What a sport, Matt. What a sport. Right. He's just a sort of... character in Novak Djokovic's play at the moment. He's just been beaten by him in an absolutely dramatic final. And now his fate rests on whether Novak Djokovic wants to go to Turin or not. What a sport.

What a sport. That is all to come in part two. In fact, there's an awful lot to come over the course of this show. We've got a lot to get our teeth stuck into. We're going to start.

in Riyadh and the WTA finals and the WTA season, which has reached its conclusion with Elena Rabakina finishing the week unbeaten, winning the title. $5.35 million and 1,500 ranking points with a straight sets victory over world number one Arena Sabalenka in the final. 6-3, 7-6, 7-love in that second set tie break. It means she finishes the year at world number five and of course will start next year.

as world number five. She came through a three-set match against Jessica Pagula in the semifinals. Two great semifinals yesterday. One in particular, the Sabalenka victory over Amanda Inesimova, 6-3 in the third. And it was, in the end, a good conclusion in terms of match quality to these WTA finals, David.

That has kind of saved the tournament in many ways because it started so flat, this tournament, didn't it? I mean, all those, the first, I don't know, five, six matches that I saw in the singles were not good. And then the last few have been really, really good. And, I mean, Rebecca has kept up this incredible...

clean hitting, this great form that she's on, 10 match wins in a row, and she's just ridden that wave. And I did wonder, you know, because we've seen this before with her and Sabalenka, that when... When Rybakken is on, Sabalenka sometimes doesn't have the answers. And she's been so ferocious in a desire to win this tournament and to keep finding a way out of situations where... she's in trouble and and i i sort of thought when it went into a second set tie break

OK, here we go again, because this is her territory now. She's in a tiebreak. This is where she wants to be. She's been so dominant in tiebreaks all the way through the year, whereas Rabakina has not won many more than half of the ones she's played this year. And then Seven Love. You know, it's just, it was just extraordinary, really, to see that happen. And then to see the sort of emotion on Sabalenka's face at the end in the on-court speech.

how hard it is that she's kind of the preeminent player. She's at the top of the ranking. She's always there at the end. And yet she's only won the one... I mean, look... I say only won the one big title in terms of winning a US Open, but I don't think on the whole that that's enough for her. But it's sort of... It is a cool conclusion to the tournament in terms of quality, as you say. And the semifinals were great. The final was good.

You look at Rivakina as a winner that is really worthy. Oh, yeah. I mean... Best player, hands down best player over the course of the week. I do love how bad a loser Rina Sabalenka is, provided she doesn't sort of get unsporting about it like she did, you know.

at the French Open this year that she totally owned. Like she just hates losing so much, doesn't she? And particularly in a final, she sat there just... remonstrating all over the place director kind of torn between whether to cut to her or or stay with the winner um yeah i mean the nature of that the nature of that tie break Matt. I mean, it always felt to me like a match that Rabakina was on top of in that second set. Even though there were no breaks, Rabakina always felt on top.

Didn't see that tiebreak coming. No, I mean, particularly given just how strong Zabalenka has been in tiebreaks this year, I think that was... What, only the third one or something that she'd lost this entire season, having won over 20? You know, she went on that incredible streak of winning them up into the high teens. As David said, I thought that was her territory.

I said on the pod even two days ago, I'm not convinced Rebecca is going to actually win this title, even though she's clearly playing the best tennis, because... How is she going to handle the biggest moments against the likes of Sabalenka, who generally has a better record of sort of stepping up in those moments?

I was wrong because it was absolutely Rabatkinner who stepped up. And I think she did have a wobble against Pagoula. I didn't think that was a particularly good performance from Rabatkinner in the semifinal. I thought she didn't. quite have her game in that match. I think Pagoula did well and returned a lot better than a lot of Rabatkin's opponents had done. But that was one that Rabatkin just had to get through.

Equally, I was impressed that she did because she didn't quite have her game and yet she still managed to win it. But today she was absolutely awesome, absolutely brilliant, like so clean. Her stroke production is so... And when she's playing well, it seems like she can just hit winners at will. And she was doing that against Sabalenka. And I think Sabalenka always feels like she should be the dominant force in a match, right?

When she plays for Bakkener, she isn't necessarily. And I think that potentially brings out a bit of extra frustration as well. You know, it's not quite on her... racket in a way that she wants it to be because of just how devastating we're back in his own game and yet she'd managed to get it in

to the second set tie-break and I thought, OK, this is the moment things change. Rebecca has been on top. She hasn't been able to win it before a tie-break. I'm expecting Sabalenka to step up here, turn the tables, send us into a third set. And honestly, probably win. I was kind of doubting Rabatkinner right to the very end, even though the eye test in front of me was saying she was playing the best tennis.

She just kept playing the best tennis in that tiebreak. Absolutely stormed all over Sabalenka and was a worthy, worthy winner of this event. She was... She was terrific, to be honest. She was playing exactly the kind of tennis that we all know she can play. You know, the exact kind of tennis why we all still... put her in our mixes for tournaments and I was still shocked when she loses early and still expect her to maybe win another Wimbledon. You know, all these things were on display.

because she was so good and, yeah, has won, I think, her last seven matches against the top ten to sort of qualify for this event right at the last minute and then blitz through the field and win it unbeaten. Yeah, incredible week.

Yeah, and going back to the Sabalenka point you made there, Matt, about her frustration about a match not being on her racket, she'd had that experience yesterday. against Amanda Anasamova, she'd had that exact experience and she'd...

battled through it. And I suppose, despite the fact, I'm contradicting myself here, but despite the fact that I've just said that it always felt to me like Rebecca was on top, thinking back to yesterday and the way Sabalenka somehow... dug in and found a way against a peeking Anisimova did make me think, but this is Irina Sabalenka and she's going to find something here. I wonder if she did as well. I wonder if she was pretty shocked that there was no level drop at all from Elena Rebecca.

That tie break must have caused a bit of shell shock for Irina Sabalenka, I think. Yeah, and I was thinking about that as well. You know, what is the difference for Irina Sabalenka playing Amanda Nisimova versus playing... Elena Rabachna was really wrestling with that. And I think... I was trying to trace the matches that Sabalenka's had against Anissa Mova this year. And I think at Wimbledon, she really did try and go blow for blow, shot for shot and got beaten at it.

and got very, very frustrated by that happening to her. And I think the grass kind of assisted Nisimov a little bit with that game style that she was playing. I remember our analysis after the US Open final. What I was really impressed with with Sabalenka is that she actually didn't try and go toe-to-toe quite so much. She seemed a little bit happier to let Anissa Mova... hit and hopefully miss and let the nerves of the grandstand final get to her and I think she did that a little bit again

Yesterday, she was prepared to use her athleticism and try and use her defence. And I think one of the differences between Anissa Mova and Rabatkinna, as great and as brilliant as everyone knows Anissa Mova is...

There is stress. that you can see on her face and probably feel as an opponent and I think try and tap into. And I think Sabalenka has, just in the last couple of matches, found a way to do that against Anissimova. Plus, I think Anissimova tired a little bit.

that third set yesterday in the very closing stages but against Rebecca she enters a zone of total serenity and calm and when she's hitting the ball like that there's kind of nowhere to go go for Sabalenka and I don't know just experientially it feels it feels sort of slightly harder contest for

Sabalenka because the opponent's giving her nothing in a way that Anissimova, despite her brilliance, she kind of is giving Sabalenka something. That's my only read on why... on why it's so different for Sabalenka and why she did seem just a bit more powerless today against...

against Robackina than she had been against a similar opponent in Anisimova. But I'd be interested to know what your reads on that was. But that was kind of my take because I think that is a very important point that you raise. Yeah, interesting. I definitely did think Anna Simova tired. And then that made me think about, you know, the fact that she's never had a...

She never had an off-season with her new fitness trainer. That's a really exciting prospect that Anna Samova is finishing this year as the world number four. And it feels like there's still so much upside. It feels like those changes that she's made that have turned around this stage of her... You know, that decision to leave no stone unturned, that's still really in its infancy. The fruits of that are still potentially in their infancy. And that's a very exciting.

thought. But yeah, what was your read on that semi-final, David? Well, just on the difference between Rybakken and Anisimova as opponents, I think one thing not to overlook is the serve. Yeah. Anisimova's got a good serve. Rebecca has got a great serve. And if you look at the statistics, she served 13 aces in a two-set match. And Anissa Mova served seven in a three-set match, a long three-set match. Now, it's not just about aces, is it? I know. And I thought Anissa Mova in parts...

did serve very well yesterday. She's got the more sort of gasp inducing tennis because there's so much of it's played from the baseline in rallies. Whereas we're back in a kind of just... quietly rolls through service games, you know, and she sort of quietly beats you. Whereas there was nothing quiet yesterday at all. I mean, yesterday's match between Nismova and Sabalenka was one of the matches of the year.

for me um that i've seen i was absolutely mesmerized in the final set in particular um i just found myself i wasn't looking at my my phone at all i wasn't i wasn't I was just totally engrossed and wrapped up in every single point, even between points, just thinking back to the previous point. And in the first, I mean, some of the stuff that Onisimova was hitting on the backhand side...

I know we talk about the backhand a lot, and it's obviously the running joke that she is the backhand. It's not a joke, Dave. She's not even on Matt's list. It's very serious. But there were two of them that she hit yesterday, which I don't think I've seen anybody be able to hit them. Ever. Because one of them was a dropping ball out of the sky.

onto her baseline. And you can't hit that for a winner because it's got no pace on it. Except she did. She hit it cross-court onto the line at a ridiculous angle. And Sabalenka's a good mover, and she got nowhere near it. And then the second one was an acute angled backhand from Sabalenka, and it took Anissimova off the court. And she went round the side of the ball with her backhand, took pace off it, hit it with a bit of topspin loft and put that at just...

An absurd angle. Cross court. Onto the line for a winner. She knew exactly where it was going to go. And yet. Sabalenka came out. You talked about how she doesn't want to be dominated. She was trying to take. Anissimo's head off, metaphorically speaking. She wanted to just come toe to toe and show her who was the boss. She wanted to knock her off the court.

The problem was that Anisimova is so good and so good at playing against that type of player that it was just these two titans going toe-to-toe to one another. There was a... I mean, and it was a very tight set won by Sabalenka. Second set, Enesimova suddenly just takes over the match, completely takes it over. She wins, what, five games in a row? And then in the decider, there was...

the point of the match, point of the tournament was at three games all and Anisimova won it to go a point up there. And I mean, she was dominating the point, incredible retrieving from Savalenga to stay in it. And then Anisimova had... sort of won it again with the most crazy hitting. She was hitting the ball like she did against Osaka in the semifinals, yet there was, in the US Open, yet there was less kind of...

It wasn't quite as frenetic and frantic. She didn't look stressed. She looked like she was loving it. She looked really composed and cool. And I thought Anissa Mova was going to win. I mean, I know... Obviously, we thought she was going to win the tournament, but in the middle of the third set, I thought, I'm not sure, how do you stop this? How do you stop it when she's playing like this? And yet Sabalenka found a way. What a competitor she is.

to turn that around. And she won that game. She won that game, that seventh game, to break after Anisimo had won that extraordinary first point of it. She's just... Like you said, Catherine... It's great watching how pissed off she is when she loses. And yet, it's great seeing her just have this appetite during a match as well.

And look, I kind of like Rebecca and his quiet way of going about it. I love the different personalities. But you now have, in Anissimova and Sabalenka, you have one of the great rivalries developing, I think, over the next... two or three years if they can stay fit because they are they bring out the best in one another I love that of the match, David. I think that's so right. I had a text exchange with...

Matt Futterman who was in the stadium after that first point of that three all game and we just totally jinxed it because she sort of didn't really play a good point after that we're sort of losing our minds at this point and then sort of all the air went out of the balloon afterwards and and i think just on that fatigue point i do think a potential you know sort of development And it's extremely hard because the field is tough, right? I do think she's...

been a bit fatigued in all of these big matches that she's ended up playing because she's had to go through such a strong field. Like you think of Wimbledon, she had an exhausting semi-final and real heat against Sabalenka, took a lot out of her. had nothing left in the final. I know there was a lot at play in that final, but I think fatigue was part of it. US Open, she had those gruelling matches against...

Osaka, you know, in that semi-final. It was brutal. Plus the sort of emotional energy of beating Igor Fiontek, sort of getting their revenge there. I think there was probably a bit of fatigue in the final. And then here...

a really gruelling match against Fiontech, to then have to face Sabalenka. Like, she's being a little bit pack-hunted at the moment, Anissa Mova, right? It's almost like she can beat everyone, but beating... one after another consecutively is kind of the next step, or hoping the draw breaks, you know, and that might be the difference between winning one or not winning one, or she can try and...

you know, go back to back and do what kind of Madison Keys did in Australia. But that was so exceptional and such a hard thing to do. It shouldn't be expected to be the norm. But that's kind of where Nesimov is right now, I think, you know, like right there. and almost just needs...

Yeah, even maybe a more comfortable win over one of them to save some energy or a draw breaking or going up yet another level to be able to sort of go toe to toe with them in back to back matches. I do find it fascinating to see whether whether that development.

can happen. But yeah, like what a match that was. Back to the final and the champion, Elena Abakna. Unfortunately, we do have to talk about what it might potentially mean. And this is tough. It's tough with the WTA finals. I mean, it's tough with the finals generally, but it typically has been quite tough with the WTA finals. It can mean a lot. You know, Coco Gauff won it.

last year and had a good off season came out looking great the start of of 2025 okay didn't go on and win the australian open but like It felt like she picked up where she left off in Riyadh and obviously has ended up having overall a great season, winning a slam. The year before that, Iga Shiontek won it. albeit in Cancun, in very, very odd conditions. Had a good season afterwards. But, you know, we have had champions in recent history where we've...

thought it was going to mean a lot and be a springboard and it ultimately hasn't been at all. At all. I guess with... The difference between a Caroline Garcia say is that she has already.

won a grand slam she's she's done that before so this is kind of a reversion to that kind of form rather than than something new but it also has been a long time relatively i suppose since she won that that grand slam you know she has been pretty in inconsistent in in recent times so that's my question to you both david what does this mean What do you now think Elena Rabachner is going to do in 2026? You're welcome for that question. Thank you. Listen, I still feel as though talent-wise...

One Grand Slam title is quite a small number for somebody as good as her. I think I would have expected her to win more than that, really, after she won that one. So talent-wise, I think she's absolutely capable of picking up and she could win. Absolutely, she could win the Australian Open. She could win more than one Grand Slam. She's capable.

I think, her sheer ability. But, you know, what an extraordinary year she's had. You know, if you think the start of it, she goes to Australia with Goran Ivanovic and then... He's basically out of the picture after a single tournament. She's separated from her coach, Stefano Vukov. He's under investigation by the WTA, subsequently suspended by them. Subsequently, the suspension is lifted or he's certainly allowed back on the circuit. And now she's...

starting to play, well, the sort of tennis she's capable of again. It's a bizarre situation, really. The whole year has been just really weird. But... And does that for you, David, add to a feeling of fragility about this form for you? Does it make you feel like it's all so... Confusing and unusual. She's a tennis player who can be quite hard to fathom at times. Does that make you feel less confidence that this form necessarily is going to translate? I mean, the last few weeks...

The last few weeks, and we only see the public picture of her on a tennis court, of course. It has all seemed pretty serene and pretty settled. So if that were to continue, then I... I suspect she ends up playing really good tennis. But it's not that long ago that she was pulling out of countless tournaments, that she was struggling with, she said, insomnia. She was... separating from this coach and not wanting him around. And then she did want him around. So it's difficult to know what's next.

Maybe nothing's next. Maybe just this is just how it will continue. But yeah.

This conversation isn't happening around other players. That isn't in my head around a lot of other players. I mean, yes, there are coaching considerations, but we haven't really seen much like this, have we? So, like I say, the last... month it's suddenly kind of come together and on the court she just seems to know what she's doing there seems to be a clear picture in her head and if that continues into the new year then her game

Is capable. Yeah. The game is undeniable. Absolutely. There were awkward scenes, weren't there? On the court after the match looked like Elena Rabakina.

declined the invitation to pose with the trophy alongside the WTA CEO Portia Archer. Portia Archer was involved in the ban of Stefano. Vukov, who, as David's detailed there, the ban ended up being revoked. He's now free to be accredited on the WTA tour and indeed is accredited with Rabachner and the WTA tour was there. courtside throughout the week in Riyadh. But that's a blooming tough scene, isn't it? This is the biggest event.

For the WTA, this is a far bigger deal for them than any Grand Slam. This is their centrepiece event and the champion is refusing to pose with the organisation's CEO. It's a really uncomfortable situation that you can't ignore, but it's as... Look. That question that I asked you, David, and I'm now going to ask you, Matt, is an impossible one at the best of times with the WTA finals. But with a player like Elena Rabakina, it's doubly impossible. So I'm sorry again, but I also am asking it.

And I don't mean to throw David under the bus. I'm not sure if David answered it in terms of whether... Oh, he didn't. He didn't. But I am giving him a pass because I do think it might be impossible. Do I also have that pass? Can I... Can I cash that in? Let's see. Let's see where we go. I'll assess at the end. I gave a good answer even if I didn't give an answer. You gave a brilliant context as to why it's impossible to make that answer.

Thank you. I mean, I think I would. What I won't accept, Matt, is another answer about Rebecca and his talent. Right. Because we know. So you've got to give a take without mentioning her talent. Well, I'm not asking about her talent. Her talent is not in question. Her potential to win more Grand Slams is... Undeniable. The game speaks for itself. But I think what I would say to that is that I had been starting to have some doubts about her future. You know, like...

I know I said like we always put her in the mix and we always think she can possibly win Wimbledon again. You know, I just said that. And I think I think I have believed that, but I have doubted it a little bit as well because of. Because of her record over the last couple of years, she hadn't been the player we know she can be for quite a long time. And I suppose what this week does is just like a jolt, a reminder that yes.

The level is still there. But I do still have a lot of the same doubts in terms of, you used that word fragility, and David's described the absolute mess that is that. Vukov situation that's all still there and I still think it could well turn bad again and I hate saying that that's not that's not what I want But it's a worry for me, for sure. I also have had a bit of a theory going about Rebecca and her in long events. You know, like she's...

She's tended to win the 500s on tour, and I don't necessarily think that's about the level of competition. It might be, but I think these long events, when you've got an unsettled... situation behind the scenes it just it just seems like maybe some stuff can build up particularly on off days you know whereas you're not just like playing all the time like you are at 500 this was obviously a short event you did have some off days

And then the other thing is kind of what we talked about on the last pod with the conditions here, you know, like indoors. And I do think what you said last time, Catherine. If we're going to have an indoor specialist on the WTA tour, it feels like it probably should be. We're back with that serve, with those ground strokes.

I know she can play that kind of tennis anywhere and look that good anywhere, but I think she's most likely to play it in these kind of conditions against fellow top players. This may be a take that ages badly, but sitting here at the end of the 2025 season, I would not predict a Grand Sam for Elena Rabatkinner in 2026. I think...

The WTA finals, she was absolutely brilliant. But I just would take, I think I would take more from the slams we've seen this year and apply that to my predictions for next year. And given the strength of the field as well, I don't think Sabalenka's going anywhere. I don't think Svantec's going anywhere. I think Goff will come again and get better, I think. I don't think Enissimova's going anywhere.

I think Andreeva is going to come again in 2026. Like, there's just a lot of great players that can win slams. And Rabatkin is absolutely in that mix. But I would probably need to see a bit more at a slam again. to actually make that prediction, despite how awesome she was this week. I accept. Thank you. I did answer, so I'm glad you accept. I accept both your answers.

You did well there. I'm sorry. I'm sorry about the question. Anything else to say on Rabakna or the singles before we move on to Stefania Clock for David? No? Okay, without further ado, Veronica Kudomitova and Aliza Mertens won the doubles title, beating Tamir Babos and Luisa Stefani, who I think might be looking for a new partner, David.

one in the doubles final. Well, didn't Tamir Babosh say sort of maybe retire in her speech? I don't know. Maybe I misread that, but I think Stefani might be, you know. Her DMs might be open. I think she'll have a lot of suitors. I also saw reports that Dabrowski and Routliff are splitting up. I mean, this isn't unusual, is it? I mean, end of a... season in doubles, there's a lot of partner swapping.

So watch this space. But anyway, Kunimatova Mertens beat Babos Stefani 7-6-6-1 in the doubles final. They saved a match point in the semis against Siniarkova and Townsend. Awesome match. I'm sure David was glued. It's their second WTA finals title after winning Fort Worth back in 2022. David, over to you. Yeah, they're fairly quiet.

a semi-finalist pair of the four when I was looking at this lineup. They're not the ones that my eye was drawn to, despite their brilliance, because you'd got Babos and Stefani, and I'm obviously... right into Stefani's matches, because I've always liked her as a doubles player, and they were playing against Shea and Ostapenko, and that was 6-4, 7-6. You know, what a win that is for Babos and Stefani to...

to come past that pair. And then you've got Kulimatova and Mertens, as you said, against Siniaka or Townsend, which, you know, they were the favourites, really, for the title at that stage. And for them to win the opening set 6-4... get a match point. I mean, it takes some turning around. And I think what Kudamatova and Mertens have is that even keel, as well as just obviously being really good doubles players. They are...

They just have this temperament about them, particularly Mertens. You know, she's just a great balance for a partner. And, you know... As the scoreline suggests, that first set was really close today in the final. But then you could just see the wind come out of the sails of Stefani and Babos. I mean, it's... It's a lot of tennis in a week, you know, and I think that they just hit the wall a bit, really, in that second set against a team that are a bit more used to going all the way, frankly.

The doubles was brilliant in the WCA finals. Absolutely fantastic. If my unconfirmed reports of Luisa Stefani needing a new partner, David, are accurate. Very much TBC. Who would you like to see a team up with in 2026? You're allowed to poach from existing teams. That's a good question. I mean, I think... There is an argument for sort of Katarina Siniaka for anyone, isn't there, really? I mean, she's such a good doubles player. But, you know, her and Townsend are such a good pair.

What always interests me about doubles is that you can do this kind of thing, Catherine. You can kind of pick somebody out of the list or out of another team and think that it's going to work. Doesn't necessarily work. I mean, it doesn't work like that sometimes. It's like setting two of your friends up. Yeah, exactly. And they're going badly wrong. Is it going to mesh? Is there going to be chemistry? You can convince yourself it's just good on paper.

I remember Jamie Murray teaming up with, I think, Max Murney many a year ago. And they could knit a barn door together. I remember Jamie Murray and Neil Skubsky, which, again, seems to make sense. They didn't have a lot of chemistry, did they? That's the thing. It doesn't necessarily work. And he and Bruno Suarez were very, very different characters, weren't they? Very different and handled stress very differently on the court. But it just worked, didn't it? Those two together.

OK, more Jamie Murray chat than I was expecting. Just before we move on from the WTA finals in Riyadh, feels like we should reflect more generally on the event. And we thought it was best to do that with the help of somebody who has been out there covering it. And that is the Athletics' Matt Futterman. who is, well, I think boarding a plane out of Riyadh as we speak, but has been there for the majority of the tournament. And he has sent us an incredible voice note with some of his...

Reflections and takes. And here it is. As I passed the days in Riyadh this week, one word kept running through my head. Guadalajara. I was in Guadalajara in 2021 for the WTA finals. It was an event thrown together at the last minute as the WTA scrambled to find a location with the COVID-19 pandemic lingering on.

I didn't go to Guadalajara with particularly high expectations, and here's what I remember. It was awesome. The 6,000-seat stadium and the surrounding grounds, even the streets outside it, were packed, especially for the night sessions. They were loud and filled with everything I think a sporting event should be filled with. Life and fun and music and song and the vibes that Garbina Muguruza rode all the way to the title, the last big one of her career.

A lot of that stadium was built on scaffolding. The stands shook after a big point. I remember thinking if I put on a hiking boot and gave it a good kick on the right spot, the whole thing might come down. Climbing up four flights of metal scaffolding stairs to the press seats was harrowing. But God, it was a great event. So that's my bar. That's what I'm going to measure Riyadh and every other WTA finals against for the rest of my career.

because this is the signature event of the women's tour. It shouldn't be okay or passable or fine or graded on a curve because the people in whatever part of the world who host it aren't all that familiar with the sport and it starts. It should be awesome. Or as Steve Jobs used to demand of Apple products, insanely great. Is that too much to ask? I don't think it is. Look, I give the Saudis some credit for trying. I wasn't here last year.

The players all said the stadium was far more full this time around. They said the fans seemed like they had gone to school on the sport. They yelled their names and cheered at the proper times. The players said the facilities are top-notch, and they are. The court is high quality. Their hotel is luxe. The player lounge area has good food and cushy red carpets and soft couches and a great gym.

who got here early to acclimate to the conditions, said she liked her ATV ride in the desert. All that's good to hear. And still, I just don't know why the WTA has come here. The Riyadh versions of the WTA finals don't register anywhere close to the late rounds of Indian Wells or Madrid or Beijing on the awesome scale. And I think the tour finals should. It's the richest prize in the sport.

Is it the fifth most important event? I think that's what the tours want their finals to be thought of. Sitting in the stands of Kingside University Stadium, the room just felt kind of flat. There were lots of empty seats. big swaths of them on the side of the stadium where the luxury suites are, even in the semifinals, and even for the killer matchups like Anisimova's Shontek and Goff's Stabalanca and Stabalanca and Anisimova.

Maybe it was more full than last year. Still, the venue only seats about 5,000. Doesn't the WTA want to be in a place where they can get a bigger, rowdier, noisier crowd than that for its biggest event? Something that would really come across as great on television? Like I said, I refuse to grade this event on a curve. It's either awesome and insanely great, or it isn't. The players are insanely great.

They deserve to be celebrated in that way. There's the elephant in the room, too. Saudi Arabia's alternative universe approach to human rights. That's a whole other topic that Charlie spoke very eloquently about last week. I agree with every word he said. By not repeating all those words doesn't mean I'm normalizing this situation. There were nauseating moments during press conferences where people on the payroll of the organizers here would ask players something like,

How great does it feel to be part of creating this legacy for young girls and women in Saudi Arabia? Seriously? I could go on and on about all that, and you know what it would sound like. Instead...

I wanted to come at this from the perspective of whether the show was worthy of the event. I know the counter-argument. There are roughly 15 million reasons to hold this tournament here. The Saudis offered a record purse and pay equity with the men's finals. Good for them. Sabalenka and Rabakina played for what I'm pretty sure is the biggest prize in the history of women's sports, $5.3 million. Good for them. Great for them.

I can hear every player who was here getting after me on this point. You know what's awesome, Matt? $15 million is awesome. I'm sure it is. And I'm not the one working the phones fielding offers from other interested hosts. Maybe no one else was even close to guaranteeing that number. And maybe it's not fair for me to ask anyone to take less than the highest offer for their work, if that's what the choice comes down to. But does it have to come down to that?

I'm still left wondering if there might not have been a better way. For years now, each time the WTA has a chance to raise the profile of its biggest event, it has mostly decided to hide it from its core fans. I'm all for growing the sport and putting tournaments in new locations. But should you do that with your biggest event? Should you really put it in the middle of the world's biggest construction site? Check that.

Riyadh has like 50 of the world's biggest construction sites. This massive sprawl of sand and rocks and cranes and earth-moving equipment. I've never seen anything like it. Riyadh is also eight hours ahead of the east coast of the United States.

and 11 ahead of the West Coast. That made these matches pretty unwatchable for most people in the U.S. That's not an unimportant market. There are some pretty important companies there that you'd think the tour would want to cultivate as sponsors. In Europe...

Another pretty important market. Much of the competition took place during the work day or the dinner hour. Better, but not exactly ideal. It's been so long since those regions hosted this event on any kind of long-term basis. Most people... Even fans, people I know who love tennis, don't really know what this event is. I think I was about the only American journalist in Riyadh. There was barely any European press presence. For now...

The WTA has lost the argument with a lot of the Western media that this is worth paying attention to. That's too bad. I think they've lost that argument with a lot of fans, too. Then again, I'm not sure they've been arguing as much as they should. I want them to make that argument by making the tour finals one of the great shows and events in the sport. It can be. I've seen it. I felt awesome. I'd like to feel it again.

of the tournament from Matt Futterman. We're really grateful to Matt for that voice note. Just a minor fact correction on that from Matt. The stadium capacity is actually 4,200 and not... Not 5,000, as he stated in that voice note. And it feels and looks small on the TV. Now, obviously, in principle, I think it's better to have a small stadium that's full or full-er.

than a bigger one that's empty. But it is depressing that they've made that call because they don't think they can fill a bigger stadium. I find it, you know, even... As Matt's done there, taking the human rights out of it, which is not to say it's not the biggest aspect of all of this for me. It is. It's just that we've gone into detail on that ahead of time. Even taking the human rights element out of it, I still find it a bummer seeing this event not feel as big and as buzzy.

as it should be, and not really having any confidence that that is the trajectory it is on. I find all this growing the sport and growing the appetite for the sport in the area. Bullshit, really. Like there might be incremental growth and there might be incrementally greater enthusiasm for the...

the sport and spectating the sport in the area as the years of this tournament go on. And Matt has reported today in The Athletic that the WTA is very enthusiastic about extending the existing deal for the WTA finals to remain. in Riyadh. That might happen a bit. That is absolutely not the reason the WTA finals are in Riyadh. They are in there because of money. It is money. That is it.

And look, yes, I know, I'm always banging on about equal prize money. I want the WTA finals to be able to offer the same prize money that the ATP finals should offer. But I just think it's... And I'm not naive enough to think that money, money shouldn't be a factor or a consideration in any of these decisions. But the tours seem to have such a short term. attitude towards revenue raising like it is long term i believe diminishing what should be one of the sport's greatest products

which is not going to enhance the revenue raising potential of the WTA in the long term. It's a short-term cash grab over long-term growth. and betterment of the sport, which in the end will yield greater revenues. And look, I'm not a CEO. I know there are... difficult decisions and pressures and agendas and stakeholders left, right and centre that I'm not privy to and I'm sure I would flounder when faced with all of it. But I do know.

The WTA finals is in Riyadh because of money. So don't bullshit me otherwise. And some people will be OK with that. Some people will say, well, that's capitalism. You know, don't be naive. Cash is king. I think we can be better than that. Well, you know, Jack Draper talking to us yesterday in the show we put out yesterday about let's look beyond the money. And try to think of the best way to put on kind of the best show. And it's a different subject, but it's the same subject, really. Because...

What Matt was saying about Guadalajara, every time we have an edition to this thing, I think of Guadalajara as well. And I wasn't even there, but it jumped out of the TV. at me. The sound of it, the feel of it, the look in Garbini Magarutha's face as she won it, how much it meant to her. I don't think I'd ever seen her in tears before like that. You know, it moved people. Sport is meant to move you.

And atmosphere moves you. And look where that sport is going at the moment in terms of places that don't have any atmosphere. You think of... of the Billie Jean King Cup finals recently and, and, and the WTA finals every year. Now it's, we're so keen to get behind these tournaments and celebrate women's tennis, celebrate tennis.

but particularly women's tennis you know we want it to be we want it to get the stage it deserves and the atmosphere it deserves and the crowds it deserves and yet because of money you end up in these situations where We're not in South America. We're not... It's not buzzing, you know, and it... I just think if you went after the crowds, if you went after the atmosphere, if you went after the stage and made it look great and sound great, it would end up creating...

revenue that way in the long term, because people would want to be attaching themselves to it. People would want to be part of it, sponsoring it, showing it, paying media rights for it. Maybe I'm naive too, Catherine, but that's my... and attitude towards it. Matt, anything to add? No, not really. You've all said it so well. I just got a bit teary listening to Matt Futterman's voice note when I first listened to it.

It was so pitch perfect, I thought. Flat, nauseating money. Basically the WTA finals experience. Yep, absolutely. Thank you, Matt, for that. Groom as it is, it was an incredible summary and we are very grateful. The good news is we have some absolute nonsense to pick ourselves up with in part two. Join us for the latest on Lorenzo Mazzetti's Nightmare in just a moment. When everything is moving all at once, your workforce

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Welcome back to part two of the tennis podcast and our preview of the NITO ATP finals, which will be starting in Turin tomorrow, Sunday, the 9th of November. And Lorenzo Mazzetti. has made it. The nightmare continues. And do you know, it was Lorenzo Mazzetti that broke the news that Novak Djokovic isn't playing Turin. because he came into press after his defeat to Djokovic in the Athens final, three hours of the Athens final. He came into press before Djokovic.

So he was the first to be asked about it. And he disclosed that Djokovic had told him at the net. Don't worry, I have just beaten you in an absolutely soul destroying final. Another one of those for you. Don't worry about it. You're going to cheer in anyway and this whole week has actually been for nothing. You're welcome. I did wonder if he'd said something at the net because... Mazzetti went from devastation to smiling within seconds of embracing Djokovic at the net. OK.

God, what situation. So many thoughts he must have been processing there. Just lost another heartbreaking final. He needs to win one of these. This wasn't just about getting to Turin. really wanted to win a blooming title and break that duck. I know he's won them in the past, but it's been a long time and he's had a lot of heartbreakers now. These are stacking up. He also wanted to make it to Turin and make...

the last few weeks somehow worthwhile. He's also feeling absolutely bloody exhausted and there's probably a part of his brain going, if I don't go to Turin now, I'm off the hook. I can sleep for a week. That'll be great. And he's also probably thinking, what, you mean I needn't have bothered with all this? Annie's in the Davis Cup. You led me on. You led me on all week. So I'd come and play your family's tournament. What a load of nonsense. But I was obsessed with absolutely all of it.

Yeah. Very funny. It's very funny. All of it's quite amusing. I mean, I generally think Novak Djokovic is hilarious at this stage. You know, the fact that he can be this age and... still beat so many of these guys, and yet sort of be hanging on by a thread physically at times, it looks like.

but getting the job done and then celebrating by ripping his shirt off. It was an amazingly dramatic scene. And then just, you know... keeping everybody i mean like he is the master at keeping people waiting every time he's announced for a press conference you you pretty much just put in your diary oh that'll be 20 minutes later than There'll be a delay.

And it doesn't matter. He's at the stage of his career where he just doesn't give a shit, does he, about upsetting people like that. He's just going to do it his way. And I think, you know, a lot of people just... think well when you've done all that you can you can just do what you like that's what he's doing and it's it's quite funny yeah i mean looking at both of them at the end of that athens final i was like

Neither of you should go to Turin. Like they both looked just absolutely fucked. Like just totally fucked. I cannot believe even one of them. He's getting on a plane to Turin to play the seven best players in the world tomorrow. The press release reads, Novak Djokovic has withdrawn from the field due to a shoulder injury. He just won a title.

He is replaced in the Jimmy Connors group by Lorenzo Mazzetti, who becomes a direct acceptance. Alexander Bublik is now the first alternate. A second singles alternate will be confirmed in due course. Phone calls are being made hastily. Remember when they used to do the photo, Catherine?

in London. And they used to have a week, didn't they, between the two, I think. And they used to do the big photo. And they will again from next year. Big build-up. This can't happen next year. They have changed. I mean, there was a year in London when this happened. Six players in this one. There was a year in London when... There was seven. There was only one missing. No, there was a year in London when half the field was in Paris. Were there two? I promise you.

It was back to back, and half the field were in Paris. Yes, it then got better. But, like, that's the illustration. That was 2012 or 2013, that was. And so we've had... Here we are again. We're still there. We're still in this ludicrous situation. The spork just moves so slowly. Like, wake up! Yeah.

We had a draw, a photo shoot and a media day without knowing the field. And it goes back to Matt Futterman's voice note. Only three quarters of the players were in the photo shoot. This is your premium event. This is the biggest event that you have and you've organised your calendar in such a way that you can't promote it. We had Yannick Sinner drawn to play U.Unknown. Unknown unknown. On the order of play. What are we doing?

Yes. Well, I can tell you what the draw actually is now. The other thing is that with this photo shoot and everything, Felix Auger was there.

He's been into him the whole time. But not able to be in the photoshoot. Because he's a slash in the draw. Held in a holding area. Do you think they had him in a sort of... purgatory area of the hotel like couldn't get the upgrade to the suite until his qualification was confirmed doesn't get only gets to have a continental breakfast doesn't get the full buffet and like

Mazzetti's made such a thing of wanting to be in Turin. As you said, he seems to be in no fit state to go. He didn't look like he wanted to be in Turin. He's got to go, hasn't he? He can't not go now. So Mazzetti's going to be just a shadow of himself, you would have thought. I mean, by the way. I don't think he will be all right, David. I really don't. I think he'll enjoy being there. I think tennis-wise.

I mean it. I think he's absolutely fucked. I don't think he's in any fit state to do anything. He's got two weeks of vibes to look forward to in Italy. This match, by the way, was... Amazing. Like, such a great match. Like, the first set Mazzetti played, I think, is possibly the best set he's ever played on a hard court. He was unbelievably good. And yet, I did think...

God a set up I'm not sure that helps you that much like that that just means you've got sort of more to lose and like then we saw it because if you want to know why Lorenzo Mazzetti has not won a title in three years watched the three-all game in the third set. He'd just broken back. You know, he'd just played a brilliant game to get it back on serve against Novak Djokovic who'd been coming at him and got the crowd going. But Mazzetti's back. He's level. He's in it. And that game, I mean...

Two double faults in it. He missed an easy, easy forehand with Novak Djokovic basically given up on the point. He somehow managed to push it long and he lost the game and got broken. He did break again as Novak Djokovic was serving for the title. But then got broken back straight away and Novak Djokovic had another attempt to serve it out. It was like the most clutch player in history, Novak Djokovic. Clearly depleted.

Clearly not at his best, but still sort of producing great stuff against a guy who is so talented and yet hasn't won a title in three years. Like, this was only going to end one way. Like, it was... I was watching it thinking this is just total psychological torture of Lorenzo Mazzetti because it was only going to end one way.

And it did. And Novak Djokovic has won it. But I think this is almost the most cruel scenario, as you said. Like, if he hadn't won and Novak Djokovic had played Turin, it was like, well, I gave my all. I had to do that. And... I was beaten by the better man. I've had a great season. Let's prepare for the Davis Cup. I'm going to go and lie down. Right. But now, he doesn't have a title. Yes, he's got into Turin, but he hasn't...

He hasn't really qualified, has he? You know, he's got in as a knife. He wanted to be the alternate. Lying on a sofa for a week, picking up money. I really hope he can show up and bring it in front of that Italian foul. I think he will. Because I love his tennis. He was unbelievable in that first set. Did you see him at the end, David?

I think he's going to come again. He is such a gorgeous tennis player. It was unreal what he was doing. Look, it's good news. You want Lorenzo Mazzetti in your finals. I just don't necessarily... Like the remains of Lorenzo Mazzetti. I worry about that. And look, 101st title for Novak Djokovic. He's now two off. Unreal. He's now two off Federer. And like...

You have to hold so many conflicting thoughts in your head watching Novak Djokovic at the moment. It's like, gosh, he's hunched over. How can he do this physically? And then the next point, he's... doing the splits and hitting a winner it's what's the point in all this you've already won everything and then the next point the whole stadium is going absolutely crazy for him and it's like oh

That's the point, because you love that. And that must be a brilliant feeling. Why would you give that up? And it's like, oh, he can't beat Sinan Alcaraz anymore. And yet he's just beaten...

Lorenzo Mazzetti, who's in the absolute prime of his career, can still beat all the other guys. It's such a mindfuck watching Novak Djokovic right now. And the fact that he... manages still to pick up a title he hasn't lost before the semi-finals of any of his last like six events or something like it's it's pretty insane it's pretty insane and yet

I don't know. You say, like, it's hilarious. I guess it is hilarious. I also found it kind of annoying, like, that the whole event was being held up by him. Like, I get it. If the calendar's going to be like that, make use of the calendar. But I don't think he ever had any intention whatsoever to place you in. And I sort of just wish he... Totally. I liked the drama of it. It was fun. I got into it. But I sort of think it would have been...

Better if we'd just known. Why do you think he's done that? I think, like, rules-wise, he can't. He can't formally pull out. Oh, okay. Is my understanding. You can't pull out of a...

a tournament with injury whilst you're sort of physically... Well, that's my understanding. He could have tipped Mazzetti off, is what he could have done. And I don't... I don't know why he didn't, or seemingly didn't, but his family does own that tournament and it was definitely to the benefit of that tournament that Lorenzo Mazzetti played it.

you know it's tough to attract decent fields at this this time of the year so crazy that you can't just say yeah the end of my season will be here and i've decided i'm not going to place you in But you're not injured. Yeah, but I'm Novak Djokovic. I've been doing this for 40 years. You know, I've done my bit. I'll do what I want. And look, David, he could have tipped the ATP off.

The impression I get is he didn't even do that, but obviously the ATP couldn't put anything out publicly. But my understanding is that he didn't even tip them off privately. You know, he really did keep this to himself to just enhance the element of nonsense. So you don't think he waited and sort of thought, I'll see how I feel? You think he'd absolutely... Look, he could have done. I don't know.

My read is the same as Matt's. I think he was probably... happy with having the door open should he change his mind but I think his default position throughout this week and probably for a long time was I'm not playing unless something changes and I feel differently

It is. It's funny. It's funny and it's stupid and it's annoying. It's all of it. So what have we got? We've got a Jimmy Connors group with Carlos Alcaraz. Lorenzo Mazzetti, Taylor Fritz and Alex de Manor. And we have a Bjorn Borg group with Yannick Sinner, Alexander Zverev, Ben Shelton and Felix Auger-Aliassime. Now, prepare to get... very confused about who is in what group because because of the nonsense they've they've had to play usually you get

one group playing one day and the next group playing the next day and they alternate and it really helps you get your head around who's in one group who's in what group and it helps you with the inevitable maths and scenarios nonsense that you get from round robin tennis. Well, because of the Athens hoo-ha, we're having to play different groups on the same day this year.

Certainly to begin with. The tentacles of nonsense really do stretch so far. Do you think they will? I believe there is precedent. Again, I think we've been in this ludicrous situation before and I think they did make... a group play back-to-back days to get it back on track, I think. But... That doesn't feel great either, though. No. Anyway. Let's see what they do. So, on Sunday... On Sunday, we have Carlos Alcaraz against Alex de Menor and we have Alexander Zverev against Ben Shelton.

So that first match is from the Conners group and the second match is from the Ball group. And then on Monday, we have Lorenzo Mazzetti against Taylor Fritz. Go with God, Lorenzo. And we have Yannick Sinner against Unknown Unknown. No, crossed out, Félix Auger, Aliassime. I suppose in a preview of a tournament, we should talk about who you think is going to win. But I know the answer and I...

I think the listener knows the answer. It's Yannick Sinner, right? Does anyone think anybody other than Yannick Sinner is winning this tournament? David's having a think about doing something. Crazy here. That is your right, David. I mean, I'd be pretty surprised if it's not Yannick Sinner at the moment. Can I give it a round of matches to decide? No. This is the preview.

Yeah. Matt? I mean, you can change your mind, but I do need an answer now. I want to see what Outcrys looks like, because I always feel like once I've seen him play, I know where I stand. Matt? yeah sinner's my pick um uh yeah sinner's my pick i haven't really got anything else to to say in addition to that

Okay, so Senna coming through the board group. Who else do you think is going to come through the board group? And who do you have coming through the Conners group? Are you going to put your money where your mouth is on Ranzo Mazzetti, David, and pick him to come through the group? No. I'd have thought Zverev and Sinner will come through that group I think maybe Felix I think I might go Felix

I mean, there is a question mark over Zvera's health, isn't there, from the other week? And Shelton's as well. I mean, Shelton's, you know, he's doing well, frankly, to be doing his... playing as well as he is given the injury here out of the US Open. And I dare say he's not quite there yet. But yeah, so I would have thought...

I'd say Zverev assuming he fits, but I take the point on Auger Lassim. He looks in pristine condition, really. Just in the sound of Felix, he's loving his life choices, right? Taking that week off. And like thinking, I'll probably get in anyway. Didn't get him boiled in the nonsense. Didn't get him boiled in the nonsense. Like he really did. He did do well there. He did. Yeah. Would have thought Fritz.

Fritz and Elkraz. Matt? Yes, I think so. I know Matt's hovering over Dim and Orr. I'm tempted by Dim and Orr. I mean, why would you think he's going to get in ahead of Fritz? I don't really. I just raped him. He's a great player to watch. I really do enjoy watching him play now. He's become a really interesting player to watch because he's dynamic. You know, he realized that he's got to add more and be assertive. So I like watching him. In the doubles, we have a Peter Fleming.

group with Cash and Glasspool, Granoja Zabajos, Kravitz and Putz, and Beleli and Vavasori, and a John McEnroe group with Helievara Patton, Aravalo Pavic, Salisbury Skubski, and Harrison... We should also talk about the Mets.

which wrapped up earlier today and a title for Lerna Tien in an incredible final. 6-3, 3-6, 7-6. He trailed 5-1, did Tien. in the deciding set tiebreak. So a total heartbreaker for Cameron Norrie. But the end to an incredible season, really, for Lena Tien, Matt. Yes, I must say I had to sacrifice this match. I did not have enough screens. So I didn't see a ball of this. But yes, absolutely. Like TN... I mean, I did know who he was a year ago, but only just. And now...

I'm going to contradict myself because I just said I had to sacrifice this match and I didn't watch it. But I'm also going to say he is one of the players I really do like to go out of my way to watch. Not as much as Lorenzo Mazzetti, apparently, and not as much as Sapolenka and Rabatkin in the WTA finals final. He's not quite there, but he is high on my pecking order, I promise, because I love his tennis brain.

I think he's got a really different, interesting game. And, you know, I think he's still very much a hardcore player, isn't he? He did sort of disappear a little bit in the middle of the season. But I've really enjoyed watching him on the hard courts this year, like unpick some top players. That was really notable about the start of his season, how dangerous he was against the top players. I just love him to be able to improve that serve because I do think...

I do think it's still going to be holding him back a little bit. But if he can, watch out because he is so good from the back of the court. Well, he's got a whole six-week off-season now, Matt, so he's probably going to come out the gates in 2026 like Ivo Karlovic. Watch. this space. That's it for part two. We'll be back in part three with a bit of reaction to our Jack Draper interview.

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No missed customers. Welcome back to part three of the tennis podcast where we just wanted to reflect a bit on our two hours. with Jack Draper this week. We only did the interview on Wednesday. It went out on Friday morning. It's been a real whirlwind for us. And it's been really, really nice seeing the reaction.

to Jack because what you see in that interview is exactly what you get like a lot of a lot of friends have texted me and said you know but what was he like off the record and I'm like exactly what you've heard On the record, like that is Jack Draper. You're getting his totally authentic self. And most people seem to be really responding to that, David, just as we did.

yeah it's pleasing uh i mean i think he spoke really well about the subjects of which he feels really passionate about i mean to go out of your way to actually get in touch with a show like ours, people you don't know very well and pitch it, you know, and have the idea and go with it and just literally...

He arranged everything. He sort of put everything aside in order so that he could be there. And then when I ended up in my eight-hour nightmare on the... the motorway there he was happy to put the thing back three hours in order to still enable me to be there you know he couldn't have been more accommodating and I sort of hoped for him although we wanted to do a really robust, journalistic job and ask the right questions and challenge one or two things and so forth. I also...

I'm pulling for him to get the result he wants, you know, to start this conversation and to be able to make some progress. Because, I mean, for a start, I think I believe in it. think they do need to reduce the length of these Masters 1000s. We're always banging on about it. But I'm pulling for him in that regard and I'm also pulling for him as a player because... He made such strides, didn't he, in the first half of this year, and he looked a real feature of the top end of the sport, a factor.

I hope that his physicality allows him to be that because he really is a top guy, like just a really nice person who... who is thoughtful and polite and considerate. And it's, I mean, they're basic human qualities that you want people to have. And listen, there are lots of... good people in tennis, I think, but I've not met many like him who seem so unaffected, generally speaking, by tennis. And yeah, I hope... I hope that he does well in the future and I hope other players...

Like, see the ways he's handled this situation, this approach to the media and not putting it in the hands of somebody else to make the calls for him all the time. I know it's not possible to do that all the time because they've got so many... But look at the PR it gives him. I'm just going to keep telling people about this. And that's good for him. It's just... But he's not done it for those reasons. He's done it because, well, that's just the way he is. But, yeah, great guy. Yeah. Matt?

Yeah, well, I... He called Fulham a good team these days. Yeah, that might have been the least accurate thing he said. Another loss today for the Whites. I agree with everything David said about Jack's character. I guess the only thing I would sort of add is how interesting I found it hearing the player's perspective on this, right? Like...

It was exactly what he wanted to do. We hear snippets of a player perspective in a press conference or in a tweet, and we know the general mood and the general feeling.

But I think he did a great job of really adding to our conversation and discussion on the scheduling issues by taking us inside the mindset of a player, right? And that is something that... we can't provide and i think he did a great job of articulating that you know like i do think sometimes i am a little bit oh well just skip a tournament

Like you can do that. And I do think players maybe have, they do have that agency, but I think he did a great job of explaining the mindset of a tennis player and why it's not just as easy as that. you are chasing ranking points and you are chasing the year-end finals and you don't want to lose an edge over a player and all this kind of thing and why that grind and that toll and that loneliness. can really wear on you. And I think he did a brilliant job of explaining why generally...

these top players are privileged and they live good lives, but also why it's okay to want change. And I think he did a great job of balancing those things, of recognizing that some people... won't agree with him but just putting it all on the record out there and being so open and honest and reflective I think was absolutely to his credit and you know if if if players

conducted themselves and discussed the issues in the sport like Jack Draper did there you know I think we'd I think the sport would be in kind of a better place I think in in that respect he's really sort of leading By example. So, yeah. Shout out to him for that. Yeah, Jack will be there supporting you in the one point slam. And you will. I will. Yep. Yeah, it was a great experience and we're really, really grateful and we hope you enjoyed it.

We have a mascot for this episode. This is a face I know. This is Maverick. Maverick owned by Carol. Of course, a two and a half year old German short head pointer who proudly represented the pod at Wimbledon in 2024 and couldn't resist coming back for more. Maverick is guilty of chasing cats, shredding eggs. Airplane neck pillows on airplanes? I've got some questions there, Carol. And also shredding fitted sheets, snuffing out unsuspecting rodents, consuming large amounts of horse poo.

That's a tough scene. Knocking over furniture and requiring four hours a day of vigorous exercise. My God, Carol. What is your daily step count? As he's a proud card-carrying member of the top... 10 most active dog breeds club yes I have heard this about German short head pointers they are wonderful but they are it's quite the undertaking

Thankfully, says Carol, we have the tennis podcast, which invariably puts him to sleep in seconds. He loves every dog he meets and all humans who have dogs and carry treats. He's not so sure about humans who don't have dogs, which is... understandable in my opinion he's a full-time job and he's 100% worth it well Maverick would like Jack Draper I think Jack Draper carries dog treats about his person it's the vibe I get from him

We love Maverick. They are stunning dogs, German short-haired pointers. What a handsome boy. Thank you, Maverick, for coming back to us. And thank you, Carol. Hello to Phoebe, Maisie and Roger, our mascots, of course, and our top folks and executive producers, Greg, Chris and Geoff. Shall we have some shout-outs, Matt? We have Ruth Summerfield from Wimbledon. Hi, Ruth. From actual Wimbledon. Ruth, my neighbour. Like Ruth, our accountant, David. Correct.

Yes. Lovely lady. What else do we know about Ruth? Ruth says I've been a friend since the beginning but only accidentally as I tried to buy as a gift for my daughter Katie but didn't do it properly so I ended up with a gift for myself and then bought again for Katie who also like myself kept up being a friend every year since and we went to your first live pub together oh mother-daughter listening duos is a lovely thing i hope it's all worth it

Yeah. Thank you, Ruth. That's lovely. And hello, Katie, as well. We've also got Joseph Ha. We know Joseph. Hello, Joseph. We know Joseph. Joseph grew up... on a farm in South Dakota, but has lived in various parts of Asia since 2010. And he says that he has a real soft spot for Daniil Medvedev. So his recent Almaty win was a highlight of the year.

Yeah, those photos were a highlight of everyone's year, Joseph. Thank you for reminding me of that imagery. I do love hearing about people who have a favourite player and, you know, how their mood and their... The days are sort of affected by how that player's getting on. You know, it's cool. So delighted for you that he's had a bit of a...

A resurgence, Joseph. I bet he's getting a call as we speak about whether he fancies being an alternate in Turin. And I think he's saying no. I think I've already seen some Med for Death holiday photos. Yes. In fact, you're right. I have too. Doesn't mean he's not getting a call, Matt. I reckon, David, he's in the Maldives. Yeah, probably. Yeah. You would, wouldn't you? Thank you, Joseph.

And finally, we have Michael Middleton from New York, just 10 miles from the Billie Jean King National Tennis Centre. Michael! Love that. Like Michael Chang, coach of Lerner Tien. Who was seen giving Lerner Tien the loveliest embrace upon the title victory today. Michael says that he started listening to the podcast during the pandemic.

Often listens as he walks the dogs. He loves tennis relived. And his husband has also become a fan and attended our live show prior to the US Open this year with Michael. Love that. Awesome. Thank you for coming to that. Really appreciate it. Michael Joseph Ruth.

Thank you very much for being friends of the tennis podcast. If you'd like to become a friend, the link is in our show notes. We have two bonus episodes coming for friends next week. We have... penultimate edition of Tennis Relived for 2025 about the incredible iconic broadcaster Bud Collins. And we also have a live Q&A show on Wednesday evening. It'll also be available as a podcast. So if you'd like to become a friend, get access to all of that as well as The Barge.

ad-free listening, Hannah's column, all sorts of fun, all of our archive of bonus episodes, then the link is in our show notes. Folks, we will be back on... Friday, I believe, on the main feed to wrap up the group stages of the ATP finals. We will be back on the main feed on Friday. If you can't wait for them, the thing to do is become a friend of the tennis podcast. And then on Sunday, so Sunday the 16th.

of November our rap show about the ATP finals will be live on YouTube at 8pm UK time it'll also be available as a podcast but if you want to join us live for that 8pm UK time on Sunday the 16th Pop that one in your diary. Maybe Lorenzo Mazzetti will win the whole thing and prove me wrong. And we can open the show with a little soundbite of me saying that guy is fucked. Folks, thank you for listening. We'll speak to you soon.

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Jennifer Lawrence and Robert Pattinson star in Die My Love, a ferocious portrait of a woman engulfed by love and madness. Lawrence and Pattinson play a passionate couple who, after moving to an isolated house in the country, find their relationship unraveling following the birth of their first...

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