Sinner survives, Fonseca fires and Saudi footprint grows

AI agents are everywhere, automating tasks and making decisions at machine speed. But agents make mistakes. Just one rogue agent can do big damage before you even notice. Rubrik Agent Cloud is the only platform that helps you monitor agents, set guardrails, and rewind mistakes, so you can unleash agents, not risk. Accelerate your AI transformation at rubrik.com. That's rubrik.com.

Today's show is brought to you by Vanguard. To all the financial advisors listening, let's talk bonds for a minute. Capturing value in fixed income is not easy. Bond markets are massive, murky, and let's be real, lots of firms throw... couple of flashy funds your way and call it a day but not

Vanguard. Lots of firms love to highlight their star portfolio managers like it's all about that one brilliant mind making the magic happen. Vanguard's philosophy is a little different. They believe the best active strategy shouldn't be locked away with one person. They should be shared across the team. That way, every client benefits from the collective brainpower, not just one individual's take.

The bond market is complex and it's not something one person or a small team can realistically keep up with. Vanguard's been in the game a long time and their scale gives them a serious edge. They're able to invest across all kinds of sectors.

and geographies, which means they can spot and act on opportunities that others might miss. Some managers out there promise big returns, but those usually come with big risks. And that means a roller coaster ride for investors. Vanguard takes a steady... approach they don't go all in on risky bets instead they focus on reliability and consistency it's not always flashy but it sets the standard for what dependable investing should look like

So if you're looking to give your clients consistent results year in and year out, go see the record for yourself at Vanguard.com forward slash. That's Vanguard.com forward slash audio. All investing is subject to risk. Vanguard Marketing Corporation Distributor. Hey y'all, this is Carol in South Carolina, and you're listening to our buddies, our pals, and most importantly, our friends at the Tennis Podcast.

Well, hello and welcome to the Tennis Podcast, a bumper tennis podcast today. We have a lot to cover. Titles for Yannick Sinner, Joel Fonseca, Belinda Bencic and Anne Lee. Qualification for Elena Rabakina. to the WTA finals, a controversial new ATP Masters event in Saudi Arabia. We'll be joined by The Athletic's Charlie Eccleshare for that section of the show. And of course, we will have a look ahead to this week.

And to the Paris masters that is no longer the Paris Bercy masters, but still inexplicably seems to have the same. camera angle. Who better to introduce a bumper show like that than wonderful Carol, who just like her mum, Carolyn, has a voice like molasses. I think, Matt, our first mother-daughter duo to introduce the show. Not sure if you have stats on that. I'm putting you right on the spot here.

That is a hospital pass of an opening question. I'm very surprised you've gone to me rather than the source of all tennis podcasts. knowledge, David Law. But I'm happy to go with that, yeah. The reason I've gone to you, Matt, is because David's on holiday. I didn't think it would be fair to... To unnecessarily put him on the spot, he's here to talk about Yannick Sinner, Saudi Arabia and nothing else. David.

How are you doing? Yeah, I was quite relieved you didn't come to me. So thank you, Matt, for handing it back because I have nothing. But no, actually, I can't remember. I must admit, I can't remember. So let's say this. is the first one absolutely so congratulations to carol who introduced the show today and caroline who introduced the show uh a couple of years ago So thank you, Carol. And on with the bumper show where we start in Vienna.

And the ATP 500 event there, the title won by the world number two, Yannick Senna, beating Alexander Zverev, 3-6, 6-3, 7-5 in a dramatic... In the end, high-quality final. One not without its negatives for Yannick Sinner, but one packed full, Matt Roberts, of entertainment. Yeah, I think this was... I don't know, low-key, one of the best tour-level finals of the year, actually. I thought it was pretty high quality throughout, I must say. I was impressed with...

Both players here, I would say. That's definitely the best I've seen Zverev play against a top player in a long, long time. For sure. I feel really confident about that. He was causing Yannick Sinner problems. And if you go back to their Australian Open final at the start of the year, that match was just so...

easy, really, for Yannick Sinner. You know, Zverev lost that match tactically, mentally, you know, in all the ways. Whereas this one, he calls Sinner... problems throughout I thought that was particularly noticeable when he he came through some early pressure on serve saving some break points his own serves was very effective particularly on the deuce side all match

I thought for most of the match, he was hitting his forehand with a lot more pace on it than he normally does. And I think we maybe saw some reasons why in the past, Varev has... been tricky for Yannick Sinner you know in those there's a lot of backhand exchanges here and Zverev was hitting that shot well and just generally playing a much better level than he has throughout the year I would say from a Yannick Sinner perspective

Really interesting that he kept up his pledge to use more variety, and he hit quite a lot of drop shots in this match, particularly off the forehand, and they were pretty effective. We've seen... For example, Novak Djokovic have a lot of success with that shot against Alexander Zverev this year and Carlos Alcarez many times. I think it was a good play from Sinner. Then we got to this third set where, yeah, Sinner was really struggling physically with some cramping. I think that...

That is the biggest question mark I would have for Yannick Sinner right now coming out of these last two tournaments where he has cramps. Okay, Shanghai was extreme conditions, but it was odd to me that he was cramping in this match considering he hadn't had a particularly taxing... weak physically it wasn't an especially taxing match I think there are some question marks there for Yannick Sinner about why this keeps happening but what it did was actually make him a little bit more aggressive

And then, you know, the whole match kind of came down to five all, 30 all, I thought. And Yannick Sinner is a little bit bolder in that point than Alexander Zverev. Goes for the backhand down the line after a really long rally. And you kind of see the big difference between the two players there.

crucial moment as well as Verev had done all match he didn't really impose himself and and Sinner did and that is a massive difference between the two players and then Sinner played another great point and ended up managing to break and then win the match the next game so like a really intriguing match that I think told us quite a lot about about both players I would say which I don't

always feel about this time of the season. So from that point of view, I did find it really, really interesting. And yeah, in the end, Yannick Sinner's incredible winning streak indoors. goes on and he adds another title. But yeah, it was a really compelling match, I thought. How long is that streak now? I believe it's up over 20 matches. He hasn't lost indoors since the... ATP finals of 2023 when he lost to Djokovic. Since then, he's just been unbeaten. And in fact, he's barely lost.

sets really indoors you know even even getting a set off him was was quite something yeah he um obviously obviously the slight caveat to that is that like those indoor streaks don't include like grand slam finals or grand slam matches that then get played with the roof on and obviously he did

I'm pretty sure the US Open final was actually played under the roof, wasn't it? So I think technically that still counts as an outdoor match in the stats. But in terms of like wins at indoor events, he's on that. He's on that incredible street right now, I should probably clarify. Hasn't lost indoors in the Sky Sports UK tennis era because that Djokovic cinema match in Turin 2023 was my last...

Match hosting for Amazon. So I don't know. I don't know what that means. David, did you learn things like Matt did about both Yannick Sinner and Alexander Zverev in this final? I'm not sure I did. I'm not sure I learned that much about either of them throughout the whole tournament. I felt like they kind of showed me just who they have always been throughout the majority of it.

Sinner, the best player in the world, if Alcaraz is not around. And even if he is around, he often beats him. Or he certainly beats him indoors, I would have thought, you know, or is the favourite. But Zverev... Let's not forget, he very nearly lost to Jacob Fermi in the first round. And I do think he was getting beaten from the baseline and his serve kind of kept him in it and his ability to...

to kind of hang in there kept him in that. And then he grew into the tournament. He beat Arnaldi. He beat Mazzetti again whilst kind of being... inferior from the baseline I thought for a lot of it but he was increasingly serving well and he was 80% plus first serves in in that match and then you get to the final

And he did take it up another notch. I think he realises he has to hit out more against Alkraus and Sinner. And he does actually have the way to shot to do it and hurt them. And as Matt said, we've seen him beat Sinner before. But this version of sinner, I was always expecting to find a way. And to me, the key was...

Is Zverev going to be bold when it actually really counts, when it's really stressful, when it's tense, when it's close at the end? It's one thing to be bold in the first set to get yourself a lead. It's another thing when it's, as you said, 5-0, 30-0. And he did get himself out of two games all in 15-14. Fair play to him for that. And again, the serve was really doing the damage for him.

But I think, really, Zverev could probably be more dangerous than just hanging in there with the serve if he made some alterations. We've heard him say that he needs to be bold. We've heard him say, or at least... show earlier on in this summer that he can go to the net a lot more than he has been and how difficult he is to pass, how difficult he is to lob. He may not be the world's greatest volleyer, but he's just such a big presence up there and he does move.

well for a guy of his size. I think he stopped doing that as that deciding set went on. He still ends up... camping himself in a baseline rally, which is kind of the DNA that has got him to where he is. And versus most players, the opponent ends up just losing. their way. They can't hang in there with him anymore. You've got to do more than that against Sinner and Alcaraz. And he still does it. And as Matt said, eventually Sinner's the one who takes the initiative.

pulls the trigger in a down-the-line, a risky daredevil shot, or comes in or plays the drop shot. I actually thought for Sinner... I felt like the drop shot turned this match around for him really. I turned on at a set. to love having arrived here on holiday and just saw him hit several drop shots that I'm not used to him hitting. So that's maybe the thing I learned is that he's got...

He's got that shot now and he seems to have really good touch on it. But it still ends up amounting to the same thing. I expect Yannick Sinner ultimately to come out on top. I'm just really confused about the cramping.

the physical issues he's having in relatively short matches. So I think there's still... some way to go for him. I'd love to know whether that is nerves or whether that is a physical issue. It's very interesting. Or both. Yeah, I mean, there's two ways of looking at this from a Zverev point of view, aren't there? There's, as you both said, he was incredibly close. He's causing Yannick Sinner, somebody who hasn't lost on an indoor hard court for two years, he's causing him...

serious problems, as big problems as anybody has really in those two years. And yet the other way of looking at it is he couldn't even beat Yannick Sinner in a fairly compromised... physical state and even before the cramping he didn't look right physically did he he was kind of stretching out his neck in a way that implied there was stiffness there he was walking like late stage Andy Murray um he

He looked the way Yannick Sinner sometimes can look, which is not hugely athletic. And then the cramping kicks in. And look, we didn't give him a totally free pass on the cramping. in Shanghai because of how dramatic it was and because he has had a bit of a history with cramping.

in the past, but the fact that the conditions were so extreme and so many players had issues with cramp in Shanghai, it's one of those where you just, you flag in your mind, but you kind of just put a pin in it. Well, this is cramping in a best of three.

reset match indoors this is this is not Matt where Yannick Senna wants to be physically this is surely an alarm bell for him yes I think so Honestly, there have been very few Yannick Sinner matches over the last couple of years that he's lost that haven't included some kind of... concern on my part about his physical state whether it be that hobbling you describe whether it be the cramping and I really don't think it's oh he only does it when he's losing or

you know, it's an excuse. I just don't think it is that. I think it may be... shows a little bit more, as you said, when he's stressed. It could well be related to stress. And when he's pushed in these matches, he's more stressed and he feels it physically. That does make sense to me. These issues, combined with that record he's got of never having won those really, really long matches, you can build a bit of a narrative that Yannick Sinner's biggest... weakness is kind of his own physicality.

and his own durability in these matches. It's very hard for people to bring that out and actually expose it as a weakness. But it is there a little bit. And I'm just not sure. You know, I must say the... The period I thought he was looking the strongest physically was actually the period where he wasn't working with Humberto Ferrara. Now, that could totally be a coincidence, but I...

It's something on my mind, the fact that he had a lot of issues. Ferrara goes away. He plays that incredible French Open final, as gruelling a match as you can possibly have. Ferrara is not on the team at that point. OK, there's a little bit of cramping in that match, but I think everyone understood why that was happening and no one really thought he lost that match physically. It was extraordinary, the tennis he was producing after five hours.

And now Ferrara comes back and, you know, there have been little tournaments where he's either been ill or physically compromised in matches. And look, as I said. Correlation is not causation, but it is something that I'm going to be interested in monitoring over time because Sinner is absolutely adamant, isn't he, that Ferrara is the best physical coach for him. That's why he's gone back to him after a pretty... controversial episode.

I don't know. It strikes me that, yes, he's made incredible physical improvements, Yannick Sinner, but if there's one area where I'm still looking at where he could still close some of that gap maybe to Alcaraz, it does seem to be there. Yeah, the fact that it shows up in this sort of match, in this sort of week, which didn't seem to take that much out of him and isn't as stressful as many other sort of situations he's found himself in.

albeit there was some spotlight on Yannick Sinner this week because of his decision to not play the Davis Cup finals. Maybe that's related in terms of stress. I don't know. It's just very, very curious and something that I do think... Again, it feels silly to say he needs to get it under control because he's been a dominant world number one and he's won several majors. But I do think it's an aspect of his game that can still improve.

Yeah, and chips away at the locker room Mora a bit, doesn't it? You know, players taking to the court that know they can't beat him on the forehands and backhands front can just think, if I can just make this physical. And also in terms of his... rivalry with Carlos Alcaraz, he's the opposite, isn't he? He knows I get this into a fifth set and statistically this is mine against Yannick Sinner or anybody else, whereas I'll just...

presumably be that little seed of doubt in Yannick Sinner's own mind at the moment and in that of others in the locker room. On what you've just hinted at the end there, Matt, we had the news at the start of this week. in Vienna. The really shock news. This took me aback. David, I'll get your reaction in a moment. That Yannick Sinner will not be part of the Italian... at the Davis Cup finals this year. The two-time defending, of course, Italian Davis Cup champions. Both...

titles won with Yannick Sinner in the team, leading the team. Both times Yannick Sinner has gone on to win the Australian Open after winning the Davis Cup with Italy. The Davis Cup finals are now... in Italy. Now, OK, that isn't entirely down to Yannick Sinner, but I definitely don't think it's entirely not down to the fact that they have had a men's world number one player for a... good part of the last couple of years. I did not see this one coming. I wonder...

And look, we're sending Matt to the Davis Cup finals in Italy and he will hopefully get some opinion on the ground in terms of... How big the backlash has been in Italy. I've been trying to get a sense of that and it's quite hard. I get the impression there has been quite a lot of backlash against Yannick Zirna, but it's... always quite hard to tell from the internet. And I'm sort of wary of taking internet outrage always with a bit of a pinch of salt. But without question, there has been some.

in Italy, negativity towards this decision. And it has raised an awful lot of eyebrows, including, I think, ours, David. Yeah. I was really shocked. And I suspect most people in tennis were really shocked by this news. There's no injury. There's no history of him playing this event. and it leading to things not going very well in the future. He's won the thing and then gone and won the Australian Open the last two years. So why would you, what's the issue?

The explanation is wanting an extra week to prepare off-season. Yeah, I get it. But I'm really surprised that he would have gone to this. level of taking an extra week off that you don't play your Davis Cup finals in your own country. I'm pretty disappointed with that, I've got to say. Yeah.

Yeah, same. And look, there's two ways of looking at this. There's also how it reflects on the Davis Cup. And it's not really a new format anymore, but the format we currently find it in. And this is a bit of a damning. indictment of that given the format changes were introduced in order to encourage top players to play and look we will we will cover that angle of this story in in part three when we talk a little bit

A little bit more about the Davis Cup finals. But another instance, Matt, of a week where Yannick's in a... what does he call it? Dances in a pressure storm. Like, wins Grand Slams with drugs bands hanging over him. Wins Vienna with this, okay, it's not the same size of scandal, but it... It did create a bit of a storm. And as I say, from what I can gather, in Italy, this does seem to have created a little bit of a pressure storm for...

Yannick Sinner, the sort of thing certainly that would derail players that aren't Yannick Sinner, like his ability, Matt, to triumph amid these sort of circumstances is pretty crazy, really. Yes, I think...

I think Nicola Pietrangeli even had something to say about it. Have you seen that video? It's really weird. It looks like, I think he's in bed. It looks like he's in some sort of facility in bed, but sort of using his last breaths to condemn Yannick Sinner. Yeah, like... It's quite a video. We must get his take on Yannick Sinner's Davis Cup decision. Yeah, I don't know what's going on in Italy, but...

I agree. It is another example. You're going to go there and you're going to find out, Matt. I'm going to befriend some Italians and work my sources and let you all know. It's not good news for poor old Lorenzo Mazzetti, who we already knew was dead as of a week ago. He's struggling on and he'll now have to...

lead that Italian team at the Davis Cup finals. And it's looking like he will also have to play the ATP finals in Turin. Let's get the tiny violins out for Lorenzo. He reached the semi-finals in... Vienna. It's not confirmed to be enough. We don't quite know exactly what you'll have to do in Paris because it depends on other... but he will probably make it to Turin by the looks of things, especially as Félix Auger and Eliassime retired in the...

quarter finals last week. He currently is in eighth spot, Musetti, and at least eighth will be enough. Yeah, he's 440 points now ahead of Orge Aliasim. He's going to need a really deep run in Paris, as Urgele has seen, to make up that gap. And, you know, he's landed in Carlos Alcaraz's quarter, and that...

that won't be enough. He's going to have to get out of that quarter and then hope that Mazzetti doesn't do stuff. So really, Mazzetti is in the driving seat now. Technically, Athens and Met still count to the... And I think they finish just like a day or two before the ATP finals get underway. I really hope that it's all done. at the end of Paris. We can do, like, proper... I don't want to see Lorenzo Mazzetti's nightmare continuing in Mets. I kind of do.

I just don't want to not know who's in the tournament the day before it starts. Then someone qualifies and gets there, but they've pushed themselves to the limit and then they've got nothing left. I really think... We're going to talk a lot about the calendar in this episode, but I really think that having...

having a week off before the ATP finals so we know who's going to be at the season-ending championships. A week off? Shouldn't be too much to ask. But yeah, as it stands, we still have four spots left to determine for... for the ATP finals. But it does feel like Paris is going to go a long way to determining it. Augiali, Asim, Ruud, Medvedev all need massive results over the next couple of weeks to get in. We'll keep you posted on the race to Turin and...

whether Lorenzo Mazzetti ends up hauling himself to Metz. As we head now to Basel and the ATP 500 event there won by 19-year-old Jo... Fonseca beat poor old Alejandro Davidovic Fikina. Fikina's fourth final loss of the year and fifth overall, sort of confirming himself as the best player really. not to have won a title for best active player, not to have won a title on the ATP tour. 6-3, 6-4 in this final, got helped with a little bit of luck with the draw along the way.

did Joel Fonseca, but who didn't in Basel? It was a draw absolutely decimated by injury and retirement. And this was frankly sort of Davidovic for Kina. Tragedy aside, and I really do feel for him, this result, David, is a very, I almost did an adal there, a very good news. It's good news for tennis. Isn't it? And definitely good news for you, our resident Fonseca guy. Yeah, I mean, he's had an interesting season really because the way he started it...

particularly the way he beat Rublev at the Australian Open, had, well, the likes of me getting a little overexcited and thinking he'd go on with the French Open. And relative to the absurd hype that I... foisted upon him um it's been a little bit of an underwhelming season in some regards in terms of the feel of it either hasn't been the the breakthrough results that that maybe some expected, and I do include myself in that.

But at the same time, that doesn't mean it's been anything other than a highly impressive year of tennis for somebody who's so green, so new. And if you compare him to, say, his most obvious contemporaries who are a little further along down the line, obviously a lot further along in terms of achievement in Alcaraz and Sinner. It bears resemblance to what they were doing in their first year on the tour in 2020 and 2021, respectively, for Sinner and Alcraz. I just think that this is...

This showed great perseverance from him because I don't think his game is that natural on the surface and in these conditions. And I saw him lose the first set to Denis Shapovalov and really looked like he was going to get a bit of a hammering. match. He was just trying to go toe-to-toe and swipe the forehand and he ended up outlasting him and Shapovalov got compromised physically and retired in the third set. He hung in there and he sort of...

Starting to work out how his game can function, I think, on the various surfaces. And that's what this year has been all about. Exposure to the tour. Exposure to the type of players you have to play who don't just... blink the moment you hit a big forehand and also the various conditions as well and I think to win his first big 500 title indoors I think is way more significant than if he'd have done that

at a clay court event or an outdoor hard court event. Because I think he can definitely do it on those surfaces. And I think that next year or the year after... if he can continue on this trajectory, I just think he's going to get more and more dangerous because I think the appetite to learn is there. And I suppose there's still the question mark over...

his physical condition, whether he becomes that athletic beast that the very best are, and also whether he can stand being rushed and that sort of thing. But I think this was really impressive. He's into the world's top 30. I think he's 28 as of today, which kind of at his age, 19 years, three months, basically tracks with, you know.

A list of players who have gone on to great, great things. So he's on the right path, even if this year as a whole hasn't necessarily been what a lot of people predicted for him. start of it when he came out of the block so quickly gave a gave a lovely speech didn't he in Basel while holding that incredibly heavy trophy that he genuinely looked like he was struggling to to keep a hold of because it was so heavy. His parents had been planning to travel.

to Paris to watch him there, but diverted to Basel at the last minute, obviously once he reached the final, and they arrived an hour before the final and were able to be there to watch him, and it was all that. That was all incredibly emotional. He said, I'm so lucky to be your kid, which was just... Or it's great being your kid, something like that. Something absolutely adorable. I don't think it was an accident that Fonseca skipped the Asian swing, incidentally. You know, I said he had...

It's a bit of a benefit of the door opening up, but maybe he wasn't a victim of all the retirements that struck down so many around him because he was that bit fresher. And three of the four quarterfinals in Basel ended in retirement as well as one of the two semifinals. It was a brutal week there. And just bear those numbers in mind when we get to... Part two of the show, we start talking about schedule and burnout and all of that kind of thing. So...

Brilliant for Fonseca in his big trophy. How much more Davidovich for Kina heartbreak, though, Matt, can any of us take? Oh, it's already too much, isn't it? This one was less obviously heartbreaking than some of his other... where he's been in a position to win it and lost it. I'm thinking of the ones against Dimonor and Ketsmanovic in particular. But he was a bit of a no-show in this final. He just didn't really turn up. As Davis described, Fonseca was excellent.

And, you know, hitting that forehand consistently big. I think the stats on the coverage I was watching had him at six miles an hour faster than the Davidovic-Vikina forehand, just on average, you know, and that's... That's quite a big margin over a match like this. But yeah, it just didn't really show up. And I have to think that... that record is massively in his head now. You know, like he knows that he's so desperate to get off the mark in a final and win a title. And he just can't quite...

bring his best tennis either in the closing stages or in this one from the very start. And that, you know, that has been compounded by the fact that, you know, we talk about Yannick Sinner not playing the Davis Cup. you know, that's his decision. Well, this week began with some tough news for David Išvokina and that he's not been picked for the Spain Davis Cup team despite wanting to play.

Captain David Ferrer has picked Jaume Mouna as his likely number two singles player, or potentially even Pedro Martinez, who played well in the qualifier a few weeks ago. And, you know, Munar's had a great year. He really has. And Pedro Martinez has delivered for Spain just recently. But to think that there's not a place there for Davidovic Fikina in that Spain-Davis Cup.

squad. I did see some quotes from him suggesting he was really not happy about it. He's upset by it. I think he's really upset. I think the logic from Ferrer is he's kind of he's backing the... the guys that helped them get there to the finals. I think this decision is wild from David Ferrer. Maybe that assessment comes from a place of generally not having that much faith in David Ferrer's decisions based on...

past evidence, and I think that's personally a reasonable position based on last year's hoo-ha. And look, maybe it'll be proven right, but I saw this and was... A, sort of upset for Davidovich for Kina. And he strikes me as somebody that'd be a really good team player, like a good vibe. I don't know. And B, just sort of a bit confused by it. Yeah. And you've got...

Pablo Crenia Busta in the team and look obviously he's been a he's been a very good player Crenia Busta but he's not at the moment anywhere near the level that that Alejandro Davidovich Fikina, which does make me think it is potentially about vibes. You know, Krenia Busta is close. Is he famously a vibe? He's close to Alcaraz. You know, they've shared a coach. Right. Samu Lopez used to be on Crenyor Buster's team. He's now on Alcaraz's team.

But Al Carras doesn't need that. Al Carras can create vibes in an empty room. He doesn't need Pablo Carreña Buster to bring in vibes. What are we doing? I don't think so either, but... Explain why Krenia Busta's in the team ahead of David Fikina if it's not something to do with personnel and the makeup of the team. Because it's not for tennis reasons.

No, I mean... I think it's that David Ferrer might be bad at this. Well, I mean, listen, I do... I realise Davidovich Fikina... hasn't won a title and is maybe not a specialist indoors or on hard courts, but surely his game is... is the better shout. I would have thought I'd have gone with him for sure. I mean, I do think Jamo Muna has been excellent this year, but I'd still, given the conditions, I'd have gone for Davidovich, for Kina over both of those two.

Well, you could have Munar and Davidovich for Kina, but unfortunately you would lose the Karenibuster vibes, which is just too high a price to pay. He gave such a sweet speech, Davidovich Rakina, didn't he? Even though he was just so clearly devastated and he was about to be told by a 19-year-old that his time would come. 19-year-old, he's holding his second trophy of the year. Yeah. Dispatches from Basel should mention 40-year-old Stan Wawrinka got a win.

over Mir Mir Ketsamanovic. Tour-level wins have been few and far between for Stanwyll Rinker, but he created a real vibe in Basel with that win at home and has no plans to stop.

anytime soon. You go for it, Stan. On to the WTA events this week and the most notable of them in Tokyo, the WTA 500. They're won by Belinda Bencic. She beat Linda Nojkova in the final 6-2. And easy to forget, Matt, that this is Belinda Bencic's comeback. year from maternity leave I think she came out of the block so quickly from that maternity leave and was so soon back to being well what looked like frankly her her best that we sort of

put that out of our minds. It was just Belinda Bencic is back. Tennis moves quickly. You know, she's back to where she was. But this is a pretty remarkable season. She has ended up having all... albeit with, you know, a little bit of a lull in there, but obviously had a fantastic Wimbledon as well, right in the middle of the season there. What a comeback it's been in 2025 from Belinda Bencic. Totally.

Yeah, it started at the back end the last year, didn't it, when she played some ITFs. You know, she took that route, which we also saw Alina Svitolina take. after coming back from having a child. And it does seem that that has been a sensible route, sort of back into the sport, to start at that lower level and then work your way up.

Yeah, Bengshic, brilliant at the start of the season, brilliant at Wimbledon and still going strong, you know, even after what's been a very, very long season. You know, her tennis has stood up, her physicality has stood up. It's incredibly impressive. And look, in this final, she played the big points so well against Noskova. You know, 6-2, 6-3 looks incredibly straightforward on the scoreline, but Noskova had 10.

great points there in this match and Vengic saved them all really brought it when she needed to and battled through Three setter over Mukovo as well earlier in the tournament. And yeah, I think she's still playing this week in one of the 250s. I think she's perhaps wants that top 10 finish. I think she can still get that. But no matter where she finishes, it's been a remarkable season. And, you know, to think as well.

She played the Tokyo final 10 years ago to Bencic and lost it to Agnieszka Radvanska. You know, there's real... real longevity to Bengtich's career, even though I don't think she's even 30 yet, is she? You know, she's really been around a long time at this sort of level for a long time. And she's also won... an Olympic gold in that stadium in Tokyo. She seems to really like playing there. So yeah, it's going to be interesting to see whether she can make another step next year.

probably do the one thing that she hasn't done yet which is win a grand slam title um you know she's kind of been there or thereabouts at every other level of the sport um and just a word on noskova who again was was a massive beneficiary of the decimation of that of that draw she had a bye a walkover and a retirement en route to the final here in Oskova but I do think just worth shouting out the season she's had as well because i i think she's made some nice improvements she's

up into the top 20 now rising nicely but she's got a finals problem she's she's one and six i think now in in finals she sort of feels like she maybe should have a bit more out of her career than she's got in terms of number of titles. But I'm going to be interested to see whether she can start sort of finishing these tournaments off next year. Yeah, you made a big Noskova prediction at our live show in Wrexham.

last week or a medium-sized Noskova prediction? I was asked for a big prediction and I made a medium-sized Noskova prediction. That is what the people of Wrexham wanted. They were already satisfied because they had a big... backhand list announcement. In fact, a whole restructuring, which we probably don't have time for right now, but I can reveal that Victorian Boco is now officially a backhand list. despite losing out to Elena Rabakina.

This week. The week giveth and it taketh away. It was the wins over Leila Fernandes and Victoria Mboko in Tokyo that enabled Elena Rabakina to qualify for the WTA finals. made it clear that that was her goal, David, in going to Tokyo by immediately retiring, withdrawing from the tournament. What do we think of that? I mean, look, normally I would think, oh, that's not very nice, is it? But you can understand it from her perspective. She's been on this mission to try to...

to qualify for the WTA finals. And it was a bit of a long shot a while ago, you know, and she's managed to catch up all these points and she knew what she needed to do going in. I think a lot of people probably would have done the same in her position, you know, and give herself that little bit of extra time to be fresh for the finals.

Yeah, I don't hold that one against her if indeed that's what happened and it seems fairly likely that it is. Taking advantage of the luxury that maybe Lorenzo Mazzetti won't have access to. In Guangzhou, the ATP 250 event there, Anne Lee won the title. She beat Lulu Sun 7662 in the final. So that wraps up the week in terms of events and titles.

and trophies. There was a lot of news, though, last week on particularly the ATP side of things and the announcement of a new Masters 1000 event in Saudi Arabia upcoming in 2020. caused a lot of ruffles, a lot of ripples around the tennis world. And that is what we'll be discussing with The Athletic's Charlie Eccleshire in part two.

Today's show is brought to you by Vanguard. To all the financial advisors listening, let's talk bonds for a minute. Capturing value in fixed income is not easy. Bond markets are massive, murky, and let's be real, lots of firms throw... couple of flashy funds your way and call it a day.

but not Vanguard. Lots of firms love to highlight their star portfolio managers like it's all about that one brilliant mind making the magic happen. Vanguard's philosophy is a little different. They believe the best active strategy shouldn't be locked away. one person. They should be shared across the team. That way, every client benefits from the collective brainpower, not just one individual's take.

The bond market is complex and it's not something one person or a small team can realistically keep up with. Vanguard's been in the game a long time and their scale gives them a serious edge. They're able to invest across all kinds of sectors.

and geographies, which means they can spot and act on opportunities that others might miss. Some managers out there promise big returns, but those usually come with big risks. And that means a roller coaster ride for investors. Vanguard takes a steady... approach they don't go all in on risky bets instead they focus on reliability and consistency it's not always flashy but it sets the standard for what dependable investing should look like

So if you're looking to give your clients consistent results year in and year out, go see the record for yourself at Vanguard.com forward slash. That's Vanguard.com forward slash audio. All investing is subject to risk. Vanguard Marketing Corporation Distributor. Today's show is brought to you by Vanguard. To all the financial advisors listening, let's talk bonds for a minute. Capturing value in fixed income is not easy. Bond markets are massive, murky, and let's be real, lots of firms...

Throw a couple of flashy funds your way and call it a day, but not a day. Vanguard. Lots of firms love to highlight their star portfolio managers like it's all about that one brilliant mind making the magic happen. Vanguard's philosophy is a little different. They believe the best active strategy shouldn't be locked away with one person. They should be shared across the team. That way, every client benefits from the collective brainpower, not just one individual's take.

The bond market is complex and it's not something one person or a small team can realistically keep up with. Vanguard's been in the game a long time and their scale gives them a serious edge. They're able to invest across all kinds of sectors.

And that means a rollercoaster ride for investors. Vanguard takes a steady... approach they don't go all in on risky bets instead they focus on reliability and consistency it's not always flashy but it sets the standard for what dependable investing should look like So if you're looking to give your clients consistent results year in and year out, go see the record for yourself at Vanguard.com forward slash.

That's Vanguard.com forward slash audio. All investing is subject to risk Vanguard Marketing Corporation Distributor. automating tasks and making decisions at machine speed. But agents make mistakes. Just one rogue agent can do big damage before you even notice. Rubrik Agent Cloud is the only platform that helps you monitor agents, set guardrails, and rewind mistakes, so you can unleash agents, not risk. Accelerate your AI transformation at rubrik.com. R-U-B-R-I-K dot com.

Welcome back to part two of the Tennis Podcast, where we are joined now by The Athletic's Charlie Eccleshare, making our composition of podcasters that are on holiday during this recording 50%. Charlie, thank you. very much for interrupting a game of Monopoly to be with us. Yeah, I'd just lost, so I need a pick-me-up, so it's fine. Yeah, that green set is just a poison chalice, I tell you. So expensive to build on.

competitors that you lost to the average age no they were actually all the youngsters were out the way So it was just me. Adult Monopoly. Yeah, very much Adult Monopoly. And my sister got sidetracked by her baby. My mum doesn't play with us anymore because we're too ruthless and brutal. So it was me, my dad and my brother. Old fashioned, going head to head. And yeah, I went out first. But, you know, they're still at it. So at this point, we don't know who's won.

I remember my parents banning Monopoly at one point when my brother and I were younger. I think because I couldn't handle the consequences of my inevitable defeat. Yeah, my brother was stormed out of the cottage we were staying at. It's tough. There's always one, isn't there? Yeah. There's always one. Right. Charlie, you've joined us to talk about a very important, very big news story that broke over the course of last week in the world of...

The ATP is a story that you and Matt and James have covered extensively and brilliantly in The Athletic. The news that Saudi Arabia... will be hosting a Masters 1000 event in the future, the worst kept secret in tennis. The ATP and Surge, am I allowed to call them Surge? S-U-R-G? I'm going to go with Surge. the sports division of Saudi Arabia's Public Investment Fund, or PIF, which is an acronym that we're all...

very familiar with now in the tennis world. I'm sure we'll be really familiar with Serge soon. It even fired me to... St. James' Park on Saturday as I was watching Fulham lose. I also had Piff branding around the stadium. I wasn't going to mention that. Can't get away from it. I was going to spare you. Oh, dear. So the ATP and surge confirmed last Thursday that there will be an ATP Masters 1000 event held in Saudi Arabia from 2028. It will be a week long, non-mandatory event with a...

56-player draw, most likely held in February between the Australian Open and the Sunshine Swing. It is the latest in a long line of big swings from Piff in the... tennis world including of course the three-year deal to host the wta finals and of course the six clink six king slam which saw its uh second edition This announcement came less than a week after Holger Runa's horror injury in Stockholm and all the concern that sparked from players and commentators about the length of the season.

season and the demands on players. It also came in the same 24 hour period that three of the four quarter finals in Basel ended in retirement. I genuinely, when this story broke, Charlie thought it was satire, only to then very quickly remember that it's 2025 and we live in an age where satire is dead because satire is now real life.

And that's where we are. In terms of timing of this announcement, that's what it feels like to me. Yeah. I mean, for me, sat I was dead with the Saudi Maternity Fund announcement. Earlier in the year. That was the kind of point at which it felt like all bets were off. I mean, this has been rumbling on for ages. And I first got wind of this in April. I think it was during when I was in Madrid.

And basically the details haven't really changed since then. You know, it was the same thick, same size of drawer, non-mandatory, week long. I mean, obviously it goes way further back. And if you think back a year or so, when... You know, there was talk of the Saudi Masters. The talk then was that it was going to be in January. And then the Australian Open weren't happy about that. And that prompted the whole premium tour discussion.

But yeah, this iteration has been in the works for a long, long time. I think they wanted, ideally, to be making the announcement with confirmation of when it was going to be, and to be able to say, we've got this. Brand spanking new event. It's going to be here. It's going to be great. Obviously, that hasn't happened. Those negotiations are too complicated. So instead, it was announced whether it's going to happen. We don't yet know when it's going to be. February seems the most likely.

And they're slightly framing it as the ATP or anyway, you know, don't think of it as an additional event. It's going to be part of this whole... Calendar optimization, I think, is the phrase they use, you know, where they work out, OK, how does the calendar work? And this is just a part of that.

And they've got until the end of next year before they need to finalise, I think, when it is, because it's not going to be until 2028. But yes, the timing of it is not great from an optics perspective vis-a-vis. player welfare and that sort of thing. As you say, this is the latest... Iteration of, you know, Saudi Arabia have signposted for a long time that this is what they want. This is their intention. I think in spring of...

Last year, it sounded like the plan, plan A was to have a combined ATP WTA 1000 event slotted into the calendar before the Australian Open. What's changed? Why is that? Not what's happening. Well, I think there was a lot of pushback, certainly from Tennis Australia and the Grand Slams. And I think they had to be realistic about what they could do because...

As it stands, I believe they can do this event within one week. So you're only talking about one week of the calendar. That's a lot more straightforward than, you know, obviously for them, they would love to just make it a two week thing, but there is... there's very little wiggle room and everyone doesn't really want everyone think and this is human nature i guess but everyone thinks well why should i be the one to have to sacrifice why should i be the one to have to move

Throw in as well the fact that we're talking about in that February period, it's Dubai, it's Doha, Qatar, and these are not nations necessarily that really want to be... Pandering to Saudi Arabia, you know, there's a lot of friction there. And so I think it got to the point where it was like, well, this is this isn't really going to happen.

And so they've had to, you know, this is a, you know, you could frame it as a bit of a compromise, really, because as you say, Catherine, it was ideally going to be this big combined 1000, all single dancing, kicking off the season. It's not quite that. But it is still a very significant moment in the kind of entrenchment of Saudi Arabia in tennis. And what I think is the most interesting thing is how now, and this is exactly what...

One of the purposes of this sort of thing is how normalized it is to the point where I feel like the human rights concerns now barely make a ripple. Gaudenzi and Danny Townsend, the surge representative, they weren't asked about this in the... briefing call which I think speaks volumes because and it's exactly the same Matt you mentioned Newcastle United there you know remember this was a huge deal four years ago when the PIF bought out Newcastle now four years on

there's kind of fatigue about this sort of thing and people you just shrug your shoulders and like wow this is this is what it's like now and that's that's kind of the whole point Yeah, maybe that's why they've gone with this timing. They've gone, OK, if we can make this controversy about the length of the season and the number of the events and the demands on the players, that's a preferable controversy to human rights abuses.

I mean, I'm sort of being glib, but maybe I'm not joking. I mean, it definitely, yeah, that's definitely kind of the way it's played out because I do think... Of course, those I mean, of course, those are totally legitimate concerns. But yeah, there is a much bigger picture here that goes beyond, you know, the tennis calendar and the kind of jostling for position, which, of course, is really important to people like us.

Yeah, there are far wider issues about how deeply embedded now Saudi is within the sport. I mean, it's pretty huge, not just the tournaments, the strategic sponsorships. And now, you know, we're talking. What, a week before the WTA finals? That goes back there. And so there's a huge, you know, that's kind of the flagship WTA event. And I do wonder as well how much the ATP... And I really don't think this should be the case, but I wonder if it's unconscious or otherwise, that...

I think the women's event, because most people are aware of the issues, the human rights record towards women. And so a WTA event gets even more attention, whereas the ATP may be on some level. people don't make such a big deal out of it. But yeah, I do think that how sidelined that as a concern is has been pretty striking to me. There's going to be... Massive impact isn't there on, I mean you mentioned the other Middle Eastern events, Doha.

Doha, Abu Dhabi, Dubai as well. But I mean, David, you mentioned Rotterdam last week. There's going to be massive consequences for so many events during that. portion of the season. Charlie, you did a great piece with Diego Schwarzman talking about the impact specifically, the potential impact on South America that I want to talk about. But David, there are going to be...

So many events affected here. And it sounds, I mean, as Charlie said, they've announced this before the fine print has been finalised. Negotiations are still underway, but it sounds like there's going to be... some sort of financial compensation made available by Saudi Arabia to kind of mitigate the fallout and hopefully sort of...

quieten the consternation from those other events? Does that sound about right? I think one of the points is that the idea is that the ATP is still... saying that this is part of their... calendar optimization. It is not just about welcoming a 10th Masters series event in and taking Saudi Arabia's money, although the degree to which the red carpet appears to have just been laid down.

to come on in is quite startling to me. Maybe it's been naive to think of anything other would be happening, but what... I've just been reading Ben Rothenberg's newsletter in which he's interviewed Carl Hale, the tournament director of Toronto, and they're talking about a buyback fund where it seems that there may be as many as... five ATP events that are effectively bought out so that they can be removed. And those are 250s and 500s.

I assume those tournaments are okay with that. Otherwise, that then becomes very, very awkward. I'm not quite sure how you do all of that. But I mean, to my mind... the existing Master Series events are diluted somewhat by having a tenth one come in, and they're already struggling to get players to appear, the very top players. Sinner and Alcaraz didn't play in Canada.

I think that sort of thing's only going to get worse, particularly as we've seen, they're quite happy to do a three-day exhibition in Saudi Arabia, take an absolute... wheelbarrow full of money for very little effort and time and energy and not worry about some of these events if they want to create a bit more of a gap. I mean, it just seems to me, Charlie, that it just...

throws another element into this calendar that we already have a massive problem with and players are speaking out openly to say so. Yeah, I mean, Gaudenzi was talking... In this conference call, which I couldn't attend because, yeah, I was on holiday, but I've listened to it. Yeah, I was on this Monopoly marathon, Monopoly camp.

But yeah, he was basically talking about the fact that there are going to be, he sees it as in February now, it's kind of two swings that he was talking about. The sort of Middle Eastern swing, which obviously Saudi Arabia masters will be the kind of headline of. And then the South American one, which, yes, as you say, obviously leaves American tournaments and those like Rotterdam either peripheral or non-existent. And also...

I mean, what's going to be the biggest swing? Is it going to be the South American one, which has all the pedigree, the heritage, the fan fervour? Or is it going to be the one that pays the players a huge amount of money? And, you know, he was asked about prize money and, you know, said it's, well, you know, it's in line with... uh atp events uh you know i'm sure it hasn't been confirmed at this point but i would be stunned if there weren't vast vast sums of prize money involved in the same way

as there are at the WTA finals. And look, I'm sure the players will be saying, finally, an event that gives us the proportion of revenue that we want and that we deserve. And they're going to be very hard sums to turn down, I would have thought.

Because money's not really an object here for the PIF and surge. It's a conf... confirmation of the shift in the economics of tennis and the ATP in terms of, you know, it used to be... A big part of mandatory, being a mandatory tournament, which the 1000s... with the exception of Monte Carlo up until now, have all been. That is part of what those mandatory tournaments pay their huge licence fee. for being guaranteed to get those top-level players. That's been a positive, valuable thing.

For Saudi Arabia, for this tournament, they want it to be non-mandatory because that permits them then to pay appearance fees, doesn't it? And guarantee getting those top players, which being a mandatory event doesn't. That's been proven by Al Carras putting out a Shanghai. What happened in Canada with a paltry field for a 1,000. Mandatory, in terms of those top players, is pretty toothless now.

The ATP have created is a system where really only money talks, is what it seems to me. Yeah, and they become even more toothless when you've got an event, as you say, that comes in like this and can pay.

vast sums because then you know there might be the odd player who thinks well Indian Wells even Indian Wells becomes a little less of a priority because it might be well I'll go and do this one where there are far more sums uh on offer and for only a week's work crucially so you can see why it's going to be really appealing but yeah just to go back as well on the South American point I mean when I interviewed Diego Schwartzman it absolutely wasn't um

You know, with this in mind, this wasn't even known at that point. It was a kind of general interview. But that was the thing that was most striking when we spoke was about his fear that South American tennis was already being sidelined and that this was going to only compound it. And it's hard to see.

how that won't be the case, really. I mean, I guess, you know, it's already not somewhere where you get all the top players, that's true. But the eyes of the tennis world will be on Saudi Arabia, especially if, as seems possible... if not likely, that they'll be able to attract Alcaraz and Sinder. Because as we've seen, despite their pack calendars, their fitness concerns, they'll go and play the Six Kings slam. Now, as you said, Charlie, the...

The sports washing of it all isn't going anywhere as much as the ATP and PIF and Surge would like it to. And I know we repeat ourselves on this, but... The aim of sportswashing is to normalise. The playbook is to ride out the initial wave of backlash until everyone grows tired or feels like they've done their bit. by pointing out the issues in the first place and everybody can move on and pat themselves on the back. But...

Nothing has changed in terms of Saudi Arabia's human rights record. In fact, some organisations suggest the restriction of freedoms there is worsening. This is from one of your pieces this week in The Athletic, Charlie. a score of 9 out of 100 in this year's Freedom of the World report by a non-profit organisation. Freedom House, that is the same score it received in 2022 and 2023. It ranked 132nd out of 148 countries on the 2025 global gender gap list. Human rights groups, including...

Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International have criticised Saudi Arabia's record on freedom of expression, including the criminalisation of same-sex relationships, the personal status law and the personal status law which requires women to obtain a male... Guardian's permission to marry.

In November, during the first of the three WTA finals to be held in Riyadh last year, Saudi nationals and experts said the crackdown on dissenting voices was stricter than ever under the de facto rule of the Crown Prince. Mohammed bin Salman, which began in 2017. Thousands of political prisoners are under arrest in Saudi Arabia for speaking out against the absolute monarchy and government.

In the US State Department's most recent annual report on human rights practices for Saudi Arabia, it lists what it calls credible reports of various human rights violations, including arbitrary or unlawful killings, arbitrary... arrest and detention crimes involving violence or threats of violence targeting lesbian gay bisexual transgender queer or intersex persons and I guess

Charlie, you're going to be heading out to Saudi, aren't you, for the WTA finals? I guess we're going to have to buckle up and prepare ourselves to hear a lot of... Well-meaning top WTA players telling us what a great experience there. they're having of the of the country yeah I'm not actually I went last year and then Matt's going this year we're flipping it so I'll do ATP finals he'll do WCA but going last year was an incredibly eye-opening experience for me and I came on

and spoke to you guys about it after. It really... Yeah, I found it very... sad and challenging i mean in a very different way from because because the thing that the argument most people make is you've got to go there to find out for yourself which is a really really short-sighted argument because

And going there as a white Western journalist, yeah, I was treated incredibly well. Of course I was. Do not judge a country on how they treat white Western journalists. That is not how you judge it. What you should do if you want to know about it is speak to people who live there.

or have lived there and no longer can, or have relatives there. And look, some people love the fact that now it has opened up, in inverted commas, in the sense that, you know, there are things like rock concerts, there's this incredible... football league that you've got Cristiano Ronaldo and you've got Starbucks and women can drive and all of these things that has come at a huge cost because as you said a lot of those people I spoke to last year said the crackdown

is kind of more brutal than it's ever been and there's a murderous dictator who runs that country and bs there's no Mohammed bin Salman there's no getting away from that um and nothing has really changed um And I found it really not surprising in some ways, but it was quite depressing because obviously and that's the thing as well. It's like, oh, but, you know, the only way we can make changes by engaging with these countries. But.

The people who were then asked about it, i.e. the players, are on the payroll of that country. Are they going to speak out? I wouldn't have thought so. If they're in a country where they're earning millions of dollars and now on the... WTA side they're having their maternity leave paid for by that country would you speak out against that country that was paying you that and was sort of securing your livelihood in some respects again I wouldn't have thought so it seems very unlikely

I'm curious even to know, as I said before, with the lack of questioning and talk about it on the ATP side, will it even be asked to the same extent?

at the WTA finals I hope so but like you said that that fatigue sets in and I thought you know Coco Goff was a really good example of this last year where she was the only one really who engaged on these topics in the opening uh the sort of pre-tournament press conferences talked about it and said you know if there isn't real change I wouldn't come back here

Well, firstly, there hasn't been any real change and she's going back and that's fair enough. I'm not, you know, I'm not calling her out, but, you know, and especially not her because she was the only one who really engaged on these topics. But by the end of the tournament, which she'd won... Her quotes were all about how amazing a time she'd had. And, you know, she couldn't have been hosted better. Again, it does not surprise me one bit. Of course, those players were hosted incredibly well.

And also there's that context of that the year before had been this complete disaster at that event and suddenly they're in somewhere where they're really well looked after, facilities are good, etc, etc. That will be the case with the Saudi Masters. men's event as well I'm sure and I will be keeping a very close eye out I hope people are as well you know who's going to be doing

the building of all this infrastructure that needs doing in double quick time? And in what conditions? Because we saw that with the Qatar World Cup. There have been reports with infrastructure projects in Saudi as well of pretty horrendous conditions for migrant workers.

you know, because it's an incredibly ambitious country. We hear about Project 2030, where, you know, this whole point is to diversify their... economy away from oil and so there's you know there are lots of these projects popping up they're going to host the football world cup um and i wonder you know even you know how much by then by the time of this event in 2028

How much of an issue it will be then and how much the players will be asked about it? Yeah, I think for them, the priority will be the fact that they'll feel they're most probably getting paid what they feel they should and that the other... events don't pay them and it's for that reason going to be a hugely popular event I would have thought. The very top players will.

But, you know, is Sebastian Baez going to get an appearance fee in Saudi? But I think the prize money will be really good. Right. Yeah. You know, there's no reason why it can't be across the board really good. As I say, money's no issue. So you want this to be, for them, just the best event it can possibly be. And it just builds that sort of goodwill.

towards the country of like we're so well looked after here you know there should be more of it you know i'm sure a lot of the players will come waiting there should be more events here because nowhere else are we this well looked after or are we this well paid um and if that can be across the board then All the better for them, I think. Important final question before we let you get back to spectate the end of the Monopoly game. Does this spell the end of the Six Kings slam?

Do you think we've seen the last of those AI generated images of what I can only assume is supposed to be Yannick Sinner and friends? That's the real tragedy here. I mean, what a shame that would be. We might be gaining, but look at what we're losing. Yeah, exactly. It does put it into context. I don't know. I mean, I guess we'll have to see on that. I mean, there'll be at least...

a couple more iterations, won't there? Because this won't start until 2028. But don't underestimate or don't ever put a cap on the ambition. because... Yeah, I mean, if money's unlimited, I suppose, I mean, you can have it all. Kind of, yeah. And you can, and with something like the Six King Slam, you can sort of curate it as you want. You can guarantee the big names.

So, yeah, like they and tennis as well. And this was put to me by an expert on Saudi Arabia. It's like tennis, like golf, is such an appealing sport for a country like Saudi Arabia because it's such a kind of boardroom. It's a lot of very like wealthy individuals are into tennis and golf. And there are a lot of the people who might be dealing with Saudi Arabia or might have considerations about whether to deal with it. And so the more you can legitimize it.

the more for them it just becomes... And we should say as well, because, you know, most countries, including our own, have no scruples about having big trade agreements with Saudi Arabia. And I should say as well...

I think shouldn't underestimate. I mean, you guys know about this far more than I do, but the live golf thing in a lot of conversations I've had, people have said to me, you know, don't underestimate the live golf aspect to all of this, because I think tennis.

power brokers across the board did look at that and were really spooked by, well, what if they just come in and basically take over the sport? Far better to work with the Saudis because, you know, this... this investment into sport is clearly a big priority for them much better to sort of cooperate and we can work together um rather than risk you know a sort of live golf situation

in tennis and so i think that's partly why they have been so cozy with them and like you say david sort of rolling out the red carpet um because that that's very much the choice that tennis across the board both tours throughout really has has taken um so i think that's like another factor to weigh into all of this gosh it's fascinating

A lot of it's pretty grim, but it is fascinating. And I really appreciate your time on it, Charlie. No, any time. Keep up the good work. Thank you. Yeah. And thanks for having me on. Group health insurance can put businesses in a tough position. Now a new form of employer coverage called an ICHRA can help. Unlike group insurance, ICHRAs offer predictable costs and personalized health plans. Learn more at ambetterhealth.com slash ICHRA.

AI agents are everywhere, automating tasks and making decisions at machine speed. But agents make mistakes. Just one rogue agent can do big damage before you even notice. Rubrik Agent Cloud is the only platform that helps you monitor agents, set guardrails, and rewind mistakes, so you can unleash agents, not risk. Accelerate your AI transformation at rubrik.com. That's r-u-b-r-i-k dot com. Welcome back to part three of...

the tennis podcast where there is a lot of tennis to look ahead to this week. I've just glanced up at my TV screen and Grigal Dimitrov is... is on a tennis court hitting balls as we speak. Just before we come on to that, some sad news this week. John Beddington died at the age of... 83. John enjoyed a long successful career in tennis administration that included a lengthy stint as Executive Vice President of Tennis Canada between 1979 and 1995.

He co-founded the Masters tennis event at the Royal Albert Hall in 1997. And it was there that, well, I mean, I met him as well, but David...

Spent a lot of time with him at that event over the years. He raised nearly £2 million for charitable causes within tennis and he staunchly believed that tennis could be a force for good. He was also a great ally of... tennis journalists and um yeah David you you knew him quite well yeah I mean first and foremost an absolutely lovely man and When I left the ATP in 2002, I'd spent three or four years as part of my role there, working on the Champions Tour, travelling around.

And the culminating event of that Champions Tour was the one at the Royal Albert Hall, which John was the tournament director of and was the real jewel in the crown, really, of the Champions Tour. And I always got on well with him, always admired how he... His ambition to put on a great event and to really make it special, he was as enthusiastic as all the fans who came through the doors to watch. And that melded perfectly with me, really. And when I left the ATP...

He was good enough to give me a job. We worked at the Masters Tennis there for many years, you and I, Catherine. And I just used to love being around somebody with that degree of enthusiasm for the sport. manifested itself everywhere you went and and he was friends with a lot of players a lot of people behind the scenes and a lot of journalists and that is rare you know it's there's often a lot of uh caution and suspicion around

with tournament directors towards journalists, and John wasn't like that. He understood the value. So I'm biased because of that, but generally speaking, I just really wanted to...

pay our respects to him and pay tribute to him and to his friends and family who've lost a wonderful man. Yeah, thanks David. Lovely, lovely tribute. Looking ahead to tennis this week, in fact, let's look a bit further than that first up. I mentioned earlier the big Yannick Sinner at News for the Davis Cup finals and the slightly less big but...

potentially even more shocking Alejandro Davidovich for Keena news. The Davis Cup finals teams were announced this week. Alcaraz is in. Alexander Zverev is also in. He's playing the finals for the first... time having said I think albeit a while ago now that he wouldn't play the Davis Cup in its new format well here he is he's going to play the finals in Bologna

Which, you know, in terms of attracting top players, Matt, is a big deal for the event, especially in light of the massive body blow inflicted by Yannick Sinners. announcement this week I mean look Alcaraz being in is is huge he does seem to be pretty committed to that event which is fantastic but given the new location of this event in Bologna in Italy this is Would it be fair to say devastating for the Davis Cup? Yeah, I think so.

If they could have had one player there, you know, I think that would have been Yannick Sinner, you know, the biggest name in the country that's hosting the finals. And look, there were... myriad reasons why the davis cup changed format uh you know back in i think it was announced in 2018 it changed the first time in 2019 lots of reasons but one of the reasons was

to try and get the top players to play it. And I don't know the stats on this. I would be interested in the data about whether more... top players you know maybe you make that cut off as top 10 or whatever are playing the davis cup now compared to previous years you know i think you know we have seen quite a lot of top players at at this event over over the last few years however

If you're not getting the biggest name there, then something is up. Because as David said, there's not an injury here as much as... As much as Yannick Sinner can say, it's about his preparation for the next season. It hasn't impacted his season in terms of the fact that he's won the Australian Open the last two years. It's not a priority for him. That is...

The conclusion here that the Davis Cup, even in Italy, when they're the defending champions, is not a priority for Yannick Sinner. And that is pretty damning for... an event that is self-branded as the world cup of tennis you know if it was the real world cup it would be the priority and i think so I absolutely am disappointed in Yannick Sinner. You know, I really, really am. And maybe that's hypocritical. You know, we're asking for players to take breaks and have rest, but...

I am disappointed in this decision by Yannick Sinner, even if it's a responsibility he didn't necessarily ask for in terms of Italy hosting the Davis Cup finals. I think without injury, he... you know, he should be stepping up and playing for his country, certainly putting himself forward in the initial team. But... It does speak to the fact that the Davis Cup, even with this change, has not become

A premium must play event in the tennis world, even one. It doesn't really have that much cut through outside of tennis. You know, like very few casual sports fans are going to really register what's happening. in the Davis Cup finals in a few weeks. And that in itself, I think, is the biggest damning criticism of the new format. We've lost so much in terms of...

what the old Davis Cup had, we at least needed to get something back. And what we needed to get back, I think, was prestige and... grandeur and cut through and all of that and it doesn't feel like we're getting that and Yannick Sinner not playing it is another indication that We haven't gained all that much. And it's, yeah, it's just sad because I love the Davis Cup and Yannick Sinner being there, potentially playing Carlos Alcaraz in an environment...

the like of which we don't get at tennis, you know, with loads of fervent home support, would have been extraordinary. And there's no chance of that because Yannick Sinner's not playing because he doesn't think the Davis Cup...

is a must-play event. And, yeah, it's just a bit sad, really. This week... In tennis, we have the lesser spotted one week long Masters 1000 in Paris. As I said, Grigold Dimitrov is inexplicably making his comeback in the final week of the season. I can only assume it's because he's been champing at the bit and he's missed it so much, but the timing does seem a little bit odd. Anyway, here he is taking on Giovanni Mpeshi-Perikar. You just missed a return.

Everybody's back where they belong. The event has moved to the La Défense Arena. for the first time, a sort of improved facility. The centre court at Bercy was great, but the facilities outside the centre court were severely lacking. I think this is a massive upgrade in those terms. They still have the... The bizarre low camera angle, which really foreshortened the court, which I find very odd. I always assumed that was a consequence of some sort of structural issue about.

But maybe it's maybe they consider it a key part of their identity. We have a potential for Rinderkinesh against Vashiro in round two. And I think Rinderkinesh has done his bit and won his round one match. So we're we're halfway to. a Rindikinesh-Vacharo rematch, which I would very much... sign up for. We've got Shapovalov Fonseca round one. Jaume Munar against Daniel Medvedev. Talon Greekspor against Gabriel Diallo. And we've already had a win for Flavio Caboli.

over Thomas Mahatch. Al Graz is the top seed. He's in the top half with Felix Auger, Eliassime, Kasper Rude, Taylor Fritz, Alex... Dominor. Yannick Sinner is the second seed and he's in the bottom half with Musetti, Medvedev, Zverev and Shelton. Are we looking forward to this week? How much energy do we all have for Paris? How pumped are we? I do like this tournament a lot.

I think mainly because it is the one week. I mean, I think they do put on a great event. They get atmosphere. They get fans. There's such a fervent...

love of the sport in Paris, in France generally, and it's a slightly different crowd as well. So I'm looking forward to it. But I'm afraid the sheer amount of tennis now... is becoming ever more a problem generally just uh people just seeming like they're on their last legs or some some being okay and others not and and not you're not necessarily seeing

skill levels decide who wins. And I hope we go a week without quite the number of retirements we've had in Basel, for instance, but I don't hold out a great deal of hope. Well, maybe that's good news for Grigor Dimitrov because he's on his first legs. I mean, not big picture. In the context of his career, probably his latter stage legs. Last time we saw him. In terms of the last few months.

Brand new legs. And that's a good draw, isn't it? Pesci Perico, first match for your comeback. Let's be real about this. Can't return. Well, he certainly shouldn't expend that much energy in that match. You wouldn't have thought. Who's going to win Paris? Matt? A little Paris prediction? I mean, probably Sino or Alcraz, right? I mean, I think the last five events that they've both been in...

the draw of. They've ended up meeting in the final and there was also a week where they played different events, Beijing and Tokyo, and ended up winning in the same week. Look, I want to see Cine Alcaraz. I want to see some of these Sinner bits of variety that he's been trying to deploy. Is Medvedev in the same half of the draw as Mute? That's my new Sinner Alcaraz.

I want to see that in Paris. Right. Yeah, that's a good shout. Moutet is playing a Pelka, despite the fact that a Pelka gave a walkover in... Qualifying. He then got a lucky loser spot. Probably will have the audacity to be sort of pissed off about, you know, Paris's organisation or something. Lucky to be there, mate. Lucky to be there.

The WTA still has some 250 events this year in Hong Kong, Zhangji and Chennai. But of course, the WTA finals starts this week on Saturday. We will have a preview show on Friday once the draw has been done and the groups have been announced. We know the pots, the pots that sort of determine. what happens with the draw. So we have pot one, Sabalenka and Sviontek. So we know they'll be in opposite groups. Pot two, Gough and Anisimova. Pot three, Rabakina and Pagula. And pot four...

Paulini and Keys. Matt, what's the dream group for you for Amanda? Interesting question. I hadn't actually thought about it. I know people think that I think about these things all the time, but I do have a life. People in Wrexham definitely think that you think about these things all the time. I'll come back to you with a definitive answer on our preview show on Friday. The key line is Anissa Mova's proven she can beat everyone. So...

Oh, I see what you've done there. There is no dream draw. She can handle anything coming at her. Touché. Touche. In the doubles, the eight qualified teams are Siniakova Townsend, Irani Paolini, Dabrowski Routliff, Kudemitova Mertens, Andreva Schneider, which is interesting because, of course, Andreva...

for whatever reason we still don't know, didn't fight for that last singles place in the line-up. We had talked about that and I'd overlooked at the time the fact that she was going to get into the... So it was never going to be a week of rest. How ludicrous of me to think that rest might have been. on anyone's agenda in tennis. So Andreeva and Schneider into the doubles field. Shea Nostopenko, Babosh Stefani and Asia Mohamed and Demi Schurz, which is...

It's a good doubles field. And as I say, we'll be back on Friday with our preview show for the WTA finals. So not long to wait until our next. podcast. We have a mascot for this podcast. That mascot is Bianca. I know Bianca. Bianca's a three-year-old black and tan coon hound owned by Mike Clary. She was born in Portland, Oregon. I think I know Bianca. We've...

We've met Bianca before, haven't we? Yeah. I don't forget a Bianca. I picked her up from her breeder, says Mike, at eight weeks and we are inseparable. She now lives in Calgary, Alberta. That is what ABs. It means, isn't it? Alberta. And she joins me in Palm Desert, California during the winter months. What a life, Bianca. That is...

Really living the dream. She loves being in the desert during the BNP Paribas tournament in March. We will be there in 2026 and Bianca would love it if Catherine would pop by our house to take her for a walk. Oh my God. Mike, I'll be in touch. That sounds fantastic. I'm looking at a picture of Bianca on the beach with, I think, a ball in her mouth. Very upright, happy tail. What a dog. Lovely, long, strokeable ears.

And if you're watching on our YouTube, you'll be seeing a picture of Bianca. Lucky you. So thank you, Mike. And hello, Bianca. TBC on Indian Wells and the dog walk. Hello to our mascots, Phoebe, Maisie and Roger. Hello to our top folks and executive producers, Greg, Chris and Jeff. Matt, let's have some shout outs. We have Anna Bendo from Dublin, Ohio. Hi, Anna. Hello, Anna. A Dublin in Ohio. Fun.

Well, Matt and I have been to the other Dublin together, but not this Dublin. Didn't know of its existence until Anna Bendo told us about it. Like Anna Bondar. Anna Bogdan. Anna Bogdan. Anna Kalinskaya. Who also came up quite a lot in Wrexham. There's a lot of Annas. Anna Kalinskaya is the WTA Davidovich for Kina, isn't she? Yes, she struggles to win titles, despite being very good. Yeah. You're going to like this detail, Catherine.

Anna says, I finally get the dog person thing as we just got a new puppy for the first time last year. I've never had a dog in my 47 years. He is the light of our lives. A mini golden doodle. named Miles I'm thinking of getting a pet mascot slot next year says Anna oh Anna please oh I'm so pleased I'm so genuinely pleased for you that you

have this joy in your life now. That's wonderful. Thank you, Anna. We've also got Michael Gross, who says, why make a tennis reference when it's much more fun to reference instead? Michael Gross of Tremors fame. That was lost on me. Should I know Tremors? What is Tremors? Talk amongst yourselves while I Google. Michael Gross.

I assume it's some sort of franchise that Michael Gross is part of. It sounds like something that might be related to traitors. Michael Gross, an American television actor. Tremors seems to be a film. From 1990. David. Natives of a small isolated town defend themselves against strange underground creatures which are killing them one by one. The poster is absolutely terrifying. I have heard of this, yeah.

I mean, genuinely, I'm going to have to get rid of that tab because that photo is going to return in my nightmares. Thanks, Michael, for that. Michael is from San Francisco and he has... just described himself as a tennis player, left-handed, as tall as John Isner, as graceful as Federer after a few tequilas, and as tactically challenged as Taylor Fritz any time he plays Novak Djokovic.

I think you mean Adrian Manorino after a few tequilas, Michael. That was very good. Very good. Thank you, Michael. And finally, we have Andrew Blakey. from Auckland, New Zealand. And Andrew says, last year in my shout-out, I mistakenly referred to the tennis podcast as my guilty pleasure, which Catherine understandably took umbrage at. Andrew says, what I was trying to say is that it's my comfort blanket when life's getting tough. Yes. Oh, that's far better, Andrew. Thank you for...

For coming back to set the record straight. He says, I always have the wonderful, professional, cheerful and friendly voices of the pod to make things more bearable. Cheers, Andrew. That is a man that's trying to make up for mistakes past and consider it done, Andrew. That was lovely. Andrew, like Andrew Barron-Murray. Enough said.

Thank you ever so much, Michael, Anna and Andrew, our shout out to this week. And of course, Bianca, the wonderful, wonderful mascot for this week's show. We are part of the Athletic Podcast Network. Thank you to Charlie Eccleshare for his time. We will be back on Friday with our preview of the WTA finals. Thank you for listening. We will speak to you then. When everything is moving all at once, your workforce, your tech stack, your business, you don't need more tools. You need one solution.

That's why Paylocity built a single platform to connect HR, finance, and IT with AI-driven insights and automated workflows that simplify the complex and power what's next. Because when everything comes together in one place, growth comes easy. experience one place for all your hcm needs start now at paylocity.com slash one ai agents are everywhere automating tasks and making decisions at machine speed but agents make mistakes

Just one rogue agent can do big damage before you even notice. Rubrik Agent Cloud is the only platform that helps you monitor agents, set guardrails, and rewind mistakes. So you can unleash agents. not risk. Accelerate your AI transformation at rubrik.com. That's r-u-b-r-i-k dot com.