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Hi, this is Billie Jean King. This is Marion Bartotti. This is Bianca Andreescu. I'm Mats Villander. This is Mary Carrillo. This is Pam Schreiber. This is Yannick Noah, and you're listening to The Tennis Podcast. Well, hello and welcome to The Tennis Podcast, a special extra bonus tennis podcast. We are stopping short of calling it an emergency pod. It's kind of, David, an accumulated emergency. podcast, if you will.
Yes, the realisation that there's been so much news since the last show and ahead of the next show that really we can't fit all this in properly into our weekly show and therefore let's just do it all in one go ahead of time and then we can... get back to talking about tennis which is what we'd far rather be doing but uh which we have to put aside for the moment and concentrate on this stuff
What we're doing is talking about news in this show to clear the path for Matt to talk exclusively about Amanda Anisimova in tomorrow's regularly scheduled weekly show, despite the fact that... that actually missed the crowning moment of Amanda Anissimova's career. Yes, because I was at Fulham, my other love, but...
This is, as you said, clearing the schedule for an hour-long special on the backhand tomorrow. So everyone's got that to look forward to, me included. It's going to be fun to compare listening figures, isn't it? I rather fear that the world number one getting a... The drugs ban is going to rate better than an hour of Matt waxing lyrical about a backhand. But look, we'll see. The proof will be in the pudding. Folks, vote with your feet. Listen to both.
Yes, it is with the news of Yannick Sinner's three-month ban that we are going to start. This news dropped at 9.30am yesterday, Saturday morning. is from BBC Sport. Yannick Sinner has accepted an immediate three-month ban from tennis after reaching a settlement with the World Anti-Doping Agency, WADA, over his two positive drugs tests last year.
will run from the 9th of February until the 4th of May. He had already travelled to Doha but he now obviously won't play in that event. His first tournament back will be Rome. a homecoming for Yannick Sinner to the tour. And of course, during that period, he won't miss any Grand Slam events. A wider statement said that Yannick Sinner did not intend to cheat, that the drug Klosterbolt did not...
provide any performance enhancing benefit and that this happened, quote, without Yannick Sinner's knowledge as a result of negligence of members of his entourage. It added, however, under the code and by virtue... of the court of arbitration for sports precedent, an athlete bears responsibility for the entourage's negligence. Based on the unique set of facts of this case, a three-month suspension is deemed to be an abortion. appropriate outcome.
Yannick Sinner responded by saying this case had been hanging over me for nearly a year and the process still had a long time to run with a decision maybe only at the end of the year. I've always accepted that I am responsible for my team and I really. WADA's strict rules are an important protection for the sport that I love. On that basis, I have accepted WADA's offer to resolve these proceedings on the basis of a three-month sanction.
Legal counsel Jamie Singer of Onside Law added, I'm delighted that Yannick can finally put this harrowing experience behind him. WADA has confirmed the facts determined by the independent tribunal. It is clear that Yannick had... No intent, no knowledge and gained no competitive advantage. Regrettably, errors made by members of his team led to this situation. And as we know, those members of his team are no longer working with Yannick Senna. They parted ways just prior to...
the US Open last year. Now, David, this is not a... to say the least. I've tried to kind of unthread the strands of the braid to break it down into the issues at hand. I think the first issue is the length and the timing of the ban. Sinnoh will be able to return to competition in Rome, won't miss a major tournament. This is essentially the smallest punishment available.
We had heard that WADA were going to be pushing for a one or two year ban for Yannick Sinner. Now, there's absolutely no reason to think that the Court of Arbitration for Sport would have... would have accepted that. And the fact that they have settled, and we'll come on to that language a little later, the fact they have settled suggests that...
They didn't feel confident that the Cass verdict would have gone their way. But Wadra are maintaining that they have upheld their principle of strict liability. Now... Just to fill you in a little bit on that, strict liability is a legal standard and it means that a person is punishable for a wrongful act occurring, even if the person acted reasonably. It's a legal standard that applies outside.
side of sports, for example, in the US statutory rape, selling alcohol to a minor and owning a dog that attacks a human. They're all strict liability offences, which means that regardless of your... or the mitigating circumstances, you are guilty or liable just by nature of the event happening. The logic of strict liability is to maximise deterrence, e.g.
a dog owner being extra vigilant or an adult knowing that there are simply no circumstances in which sex with a minor is acceptable. That background I got from an article in Sportico that I found very useful. Wilder are maintaining, David, that strict liability does apply in doping cases, but they've also accepted mitigation in this case, which undermines the concept of strict liability.
And look, whether you think strict liability should be in place or not, this feels inconsistent to me. What do you think? I think that there... Their options as a sanction weren't sufficient to fit what they ended up regarding as the issue here, and therefore it was either zero or a year. And I think that they, I mean, look, I spoke some time ago to Jamie Singer at Onside Law, Bada Sinner's legal team, you know, who have clearly done a...
very good job here in getting him the best possible result. And I spoke to them and it was very clear just how much... Wadra had put into this, the volumes of detail they'd gone into in mounting their case against why Yannick Sinner should be sanctioned. And I think that they've... They've had their response and realised that, gee, we may well not get anything here because it's either a year or nothing at Cats. And they've thought...
maybe we can find a compromise. And I mean, and I think that they would view it as... Well, we are giving him a ban and he wouldn't be getting that ban if it wasn't for us. And so there is strict liability being followed. But it sounds as though they just don't have the infrastructure within their sanctioning to fit. this particular um offense face saving from i think so is that what you're describing yeah no i i really think so and and i and look it appears that they are the one who've
ones who have approached Sinner's team. He was in Doha. He was about to play a tennis tournament. From everything I understand, this was a shock. to everybody. I don't think the ITIA knew anything about this sudden turn of events. Everybody was waiting to go to a... a case in April to have this out. Everybody. And suddenly it stopped. Suddenly WADA have approached. And I mean, you heard it in the quote, their offer. So they have basically offered it. And look, again.
Good job to Sinner's legal team because they have negotiated the absolute perfect solution for Yannick Sinner. I'm sure in an ideal world, I mean, Yannick Sinner has been very clear that he doesn't believe he's actually done anything wrong, but he also accepts that. he's responsible for his team. So in effect, he has done something wrong because they've done something wrong. But...
The next best thing to not getting anything is to have a three-month ban in between two Grand Slam tournaments, not missing any of them, getting back just in time for your home tournament to get a hero's welcome in Rome. Missed tournaments that really don't make that much difference. Yes, you may lose your world number one ranking, but everybody really knows who's the world number one because you've just won the last two Grand Slam tournaments.
Your legacy in terms of Grand Slam tournament winning tennis is not impacted whatsoever. In fact, it might be improved by you having a nice rest. So the whole thing ends up coming across... as a very convenient set of results for Yannick Sinner. And listen, it's all been followed as it's allowed to be followed. And you can't blame him and his team for trying to get the best case scenario for him. And he's got the money. He's spent the money. Those lawyers have done a brilliant job.
But it does make you think, oh, my God, they've just negotiated a resolution to this. And that does feel strange. Yeah, convenient, the word used there. That is a word also used by Tim Henman, described the timing of the ban as too convenient. He said he believes it will leave fans of tennis with a pretty sour taste. Those are about as strong words as I've ever heard Tim Henman say on the record. I've heard him say stuff, you know, when the cameras aren't off. It's pretty punchy. But that's...
Pretty strong stuff from Tim Herman. Stan Rorinko on Twitter. I don't believe in a clean sport anymore. Liam Brodie, the British player, didn't realise you could reach a settlement regarding a doping ban. Interesting. Back in time for the French Open. And I guess lots of lots of articles and responses kind of accusing Yannick Sinner of gaming the system. And look, as David says, I think in Yannick Sinner's shoes with his resources.
we would all have done the same. If a system's there to be gamed and you have the means to play it, you do, especially with the stakes as high as they are for the annexation. The question is whether this outcome should have... been available to him or whether the whole process that led to this outcome has felt like one that serves the purpose that anti-doping authorities are there to serve which is upholding
the real and perceived integrity of the sport. Matt, how do you feel about the real and perceived integrity of the sport following this news? about Yannick Sinner? I think all throughout this doping case, kind of as Liam Brody said there,
didn't realise you could reach a settlement regarding a doping ban. And I think there has been this... this feeling all throughout the case of people people learning on the spot how anti-doping in tennis works and in sport works and you know we had the wrinkle earlier that because he he got his evidence in so quickly he was able for his provisional suspension to not be detailed publicly people didn't know about that and when it came out it felt like this outrageous thing to a lot of people
But it felt outrageous simply because they didn't know about it. People do not know the intricate details of anti-doping. And people didn't know this intricate detail. You know, provision 10.8.2 of the World Anti-Doping Code is not something that people are familiar with. So when people enact upon that, it feels like...
an outrageous thing has happened. But actually, the due process has been followed here. And as David said, Yannick Sinner, with his resources, has been able to take advantage of it. I think this idea that... top players are facing some huge advantage over other players when it comes to doping in the sport.
Absolutely, I agree in terms of the resources at their disposal to fight these cases. As we've said, WADA came... to Yannick Sinner with this offer because Yannick Sinner's legal team had been so strong putting together a defence and that wouldn't have been available to other players and that's not a unique thing to tennis that people with resources are... you know able to fight justice harder you know like that's a that's more of a problem with the world i suppose than necessarily tennis but
The idea that tennis is protecting the top players is just not something that I subscribe to. Literally in the last year, we've seen the two players who've spent the most time. as the world number one on the men's and women's side, found guilty of doping offences. It doesn't seem to me like they're getting away with stuff. So in that sense, I do think the...
you know, integrity of the sport is being upheld here. And, you know, the facts of this case have been accepted by the ITIA and by WADA that Sinner did not intend... to dope that he didn't gain any performance enhancement out of it and yet he's still serving a ban like that to me in the grand scheme of things seems Seems pretty strong and pretty strict when you put it like that. And I think maybe there was an error initially, like not to give him...
any sort of ban from the ITIN. I think it was probably right of WADA to appeal that. I do think players should be responsible for the actions of their team. And in the end, I kind of think we've reached a point here where obviously Sinner is as pleased as he can be with this outcome. And I think Wada... kind of are as well because they have at least imposed this ban and they've at least set a precedent here where you do have to be responsible for the actions of your team.
It feels to me like this is the right kind of punishment for the offence, and obviously the timing is beneficial for Sinner, and he's been able to take advantage of that, and there's maybe a bigger picture there.
argument about how much your resources should be able to help you fight these cases but in terms of the what's actually happened I don't feel outraged by it in a way that I think you know you do see a lot of outraged reaction and I think that's I think that's disproportionate we'll come on to the the resource element in in in a bit more detail in just a moment but just to stay on the the settlement angle here and Liam Brody's point there that he didn't even realise that his settlement was...
an available course of action in this case. I did speak to a spokesperson from WADA to try and get some context for the settlement and the way that this case was concluded. and I was told the provision 10.8.2. And now when I type P into my Google search bar, it comes up with provision 10.8.2 WADA, which I can tell you folks was not the case 48 hours ago. Yeah.
The statement says, the revision 10.8.2 of the World Anti-Doping Code was introduced in 2021. Since then, it has been used dozens of times for cases with exceptional circumstances such as this one. For context, there are... are many thousands of cases so it's not used that often and is the exception rather than the rule now i have i have deeped this trying to find other examples of cases and um
We've been told that there are dozens. And I have really struggled to find specific examples. I'm not suggesting they're not there. I just really want to see them just to get some sort of... of how unique and unusual these set of circumstances are. I found an example of a figure skater, Carolina Costner, who reached a settlement with WADA.
prior to a scheduled CAS appeal in 2016. Very, very different case. She didn't test positive herself. She kind of covered for a boyfriend. It was a whole thing. But she did reach a kind of... pre-trial settlement with CAS. But that was 2016. Prior to this new provision in the code coming in in 2021, I found the example of Temurus-Gabashvili, the Russian... who reached a settlement with WADA under this provision, so post-2021, for a 20-month ban following a positive test. However...
The parallels aren't that satisfying, really, because the settlement was reached at a... a far earlier stage in proceedings, more equivalent to kind of confessing to a crime at the investigation stage, confessing to the police rather than reaching a plea bargain before trial, which is kind of the... best equivalent I can reach for with Yannick Sinner. So I would love to know some examples. I've learned a lot about Google searching in the last 12 hours.
And I'm still kind of in the dark a bit. But yeah, the best guide we have is dozens and it being the exception rather than the rule in terms of how these cases are. are concluded. And I think it would be helpful if WADA could point us and people generally to some other cases. Like it would dampen down that.
the outrage that I'm talking about, you know, let's see some precedents. Let's just help everyone, I think, just be able to process this, that this is a thing that you are able to do. Absolutely, because... Transparency is everything here because, as I always bang on, it's just important that justice is seen to be done as that justice is actually done because the whole point of all of this is... people's faith in the integrity of the sport. That's the whole it. On to the...
The resource element of this, the PTPA, David, the Professional Tennis Players Association, the... The union formed by Novak Djokovic and Vasek Pospisil in 2020. It was certainly mid-pandemic, wasn't it? Because their sort of inaugural photograph was very... very social distancy and masky.
which really helps date the formation of the PTPA. Their response to this was extremely fiery. A few quotes from their statement. The system is not a system. It's a club. Supposed case by case discretion is in fact. merely cover for tailored deals, unfair treatment and inconsistent rulings. It's not just the different results for different players. It's the lack of transparency, the lack of process, the lack of consistency.
This bias is unacceptable for all athletes and shows a deep disrespect for every sport and its fans. I should say here and I... I have to say I didn't know this, but last month the PTPA launched a new scheme and I think Tara Moore, the British... player who served a provisional suspension and has been very outspoken against what she sees as a kind of two-tier system. She's been instrumental in this. They launched a new scheme offering players facing allegations of doping.
or corruption access to pro bono legal support. They said it would ensure access to world-class legal expertise, regardless of a player's... financial standing and personal resource. Now, this seems... Pretty huge to me. If I were the PTPA and maybe they have been and I just haven't been looking in the right places. If I were the PTPA, I would have been shouting from the rooftops that they've set this up because I think one of the...
Biggest issues that this whole case has highlighted and looks as perfectly transferable and applicable to justice outside of sport is the role that resources play in the judicial process. I think... Well, look, I personally don't want justice to be determined by resource. But is it naive to think that there's any realistic alternative? Is that just capitalism?
You know, would OJ Simpson have been acquitted with state-assigned lawyers rather than the multi-million pound legal team he could afford to assemble? I feel pretty confident that no, he would not have. But... Maybe all this is just the natural conclusion of a sport as physically demanding and as commercially optimised as tennis is. I don't know. What's the solution here, David? Maybe the PTPA have already come up with it. Well...
I think it is, on paper at least, and I don't know the details of that support, how far it stretches, what value it is, versus what a Yannick Sinner is able to afford, for instance. I don't know how those two things compare.
At least it is something. It is a statement of... need and intent and determination to do something to try to bridge that gap and i i mean it is interesting you know it is it is a fiery statement and just to look on their one of their social media accounts and they've actually got the pinned tweet about this pro bono system that they've announced on the 29th of January, but they haven't referred to it in the statement. And I kind of thought...
Why have you not? You know, you've come out with these really fiery words which are just designed to be quoted and yet you haven't referenced the thing that you're... doing about it, which I find very strange. I mean, I've heard their CEO talk on a number of occasions and of recent times, he was appointed in 2022, and they really could have done with him in place. when they started this thing in 2020, because I think that they went two years just looking a little bit...
All over the place, really. I mean, I think it's still got somewhere to go. But for the first two years, it just looked like a bunch of players shouting a lot about things they didn't like to do with the ATP. And it was a bit chaotic. And then he came. in Ahmad Nasser and and just talked in a way that kind of added up and talked from experience of this type of role in other sports and
And I did think actually there's some sense to this. There's a place for this. There's a voice for the players. And when they talked about...
the need for this type of legal support. I thought, what a great idea, but how are you going to ever get that off the ground? And, well, it seems they've got something off the ground. I'd like to know more about it, really, in terms of actually how deep it runs and what the sort of... potties of cash that is available i suppose i mean whether you could get to that i don't know but it it is
a help on paper. And I do agree with you. It's the only way I can think that you could ever make it fairer for players to be able to approach a situation like this with the goal of justice in mind. And that is surely the goal. And it does strike me that there's this fiery reaction, but it does strike me that what the PTPA are aiming for is for more cases to look like Yannick Sinners.
rather than Tara Moore's, for example. Everyone is kind of in agreement that the Tara Moore case has been just really, really tough on her. And then when you get the opposite and you get what's happened with Yannick Sinner, there's kind of outrage about that as well. And it's like... What the PTPA surely are aiming for is to be able to provide the resources so that people's cases can be fought to the same degree that Yannick Sinner has been able to...
to fight his in a way. And I think it's great that they've come up with this scheme. That genuinely sounds like really useful, actionable. support that they can provide to players um so i i think that's great but i but i almost feel like the yannick sinner case is the one that they should be sort of pointing to as that's what we want rather than It's a huge scandal, if that makes sense. It always reminds me of the League Managers Association.
a football manager is fired and the League Managers Association comes out and says it's about time clubs started supporting these managers. And then I'm thinking... Well, shouldn't you also be supporting the guy who's just got a new job as a result of this one being fired? Yeah, absolutely. Too long didn't read for the last... half hour of podcasting, Matt Roberts would like there to be less outrage. Have said outrage a lot, haven't I, in this first part of this pod.
Matt just wants to enjoy full and beating forest and Amanda ran us from over his backhand and for everybody just to calm down about the other stuff. Yeah. I mean, I mean, I think there are still some there are still some questions that I have, like, honestly, kind of pertaining to Giacomo Naldi and Umberto Ferrara.
They're the ones who in this have been deemed to have really done something wrong. And they're now working with Matteo Berrettini. Like there's a kind of question of what is Matteo Berrettini doing hiring them? so soon and while all of this is still being played out and also in a way like how have they been able to just go to another player like without the focus on them like I do find that an interesting part of this
this whole case that hasn't really been talked about much. You know, the spotlight has been so on Yannick Sinner, and I understand that. He's the star here, and yet he's also the guy who's been shown... not really to have done anything wrong. And the people who have have just slipped into another job. It's quite an interesting part of this case, I think.
Yeah, absolutely. And it's, you know, that's a whole podcast or a whole series of podcasts in itself, I think, but the lack of provision for punishing... even investigating coaches, holding coaches accountable, I guess because the very principle of that interferes with the principle of strict liability, which is that the player is responsible for the coaches.
For example, and we don't need to deep this, but Camilla Valieva, the Russian figure skater who was 15 at the time of the last Winter Olympics, very famously tested positive, has now been...
Banned for four years, which is career ending for a female figure skater. You know, she tested positive. She was 15 years of age. And has a very, very controversial... coach that yeah let's you know very controversial coach and she's had her career ended and and the coach who was responsible for a literal child, seems to be sailing on. sailing on untouched and you know that's a very extreme example but you know extreme examples often highlight a principle that
that applies, you know, to greater and lesser degrees quite widely. And I agree that is something that needs spotlighting. Absolutely. And also, like, however you feel about this. Yesterday was the answer to the big question of the men's tennis season. How long will Yannick Sinner be out for and what will he miss?
it feels like a really big moment. You know, like we finally have that answer. We didn't know when we were going to get it. We've got it. And it's about as minimal impact as there possibly could be. And that's... that's a pretty big game-changing thing in terms of how we look at the tennis season as well, just to bring it back to the actual sport. And just to kind of end on that point, David, assuming this is kind of the conclusion, he'll serve the band for the next three months, but we know...
The beginning, middle and end of the Yannick Sinner doping case now, we think. How much does this impact your view of Yannick Sinner generally, your view of him going forward, your view of what he's achieved since he tested positive, which is two grandsons. titles does this actually help you view his achievements just as his achievements because it's kind of like he's going to serve his time that's that done we move on
Or does it muddy the waters for you? I think it does help a little bit, actually. I do find these conversations and these stories difficult. We're learning on the job with everybody else. We're trying to find out as much as we can. to a view of has this guy actually deliberately cheated has he uh has he acted negligently these are things that are that we're always trying to work out well i'm pretty i'm very confident
I feel pretty confident anyway that he hasn't done those things. And yes, you could say, well, you hired the guys who put this in your system. OK. But I think, generally speaking, it does help me to put it behind me because I feel like I know where we stand now. And I realised that might be a little bit at odds with what I said about Simona Hallett.
the other day and in terms of regarding her career as tarnished and tainted I do think of them a little differently but at the same time Funny enough, I think ever since I read Hannah's column, Hannah Wilkes, who works for us, and wrote this amazing column about Simona Halep, and that column did make me think again a little bit about what I said about Simona Halep.
And I think Matt probably summed up the best way to think about that on the show when we were talking about it in terms of... she feels hurt she feels not that she feels she did anything wrong because she's always insisted she didn't but she feels the pain of it and and i and i i think i i I do sympathise more with her than maybe I suggested or felt on that show that we did last week. And with regards to Sinner, maybe I'm totally naive, but I do think...
In his case, I do think he didn't intend to do this, and I don't think he was trying to cheat. And therefore, now that they've resolved it, he's going to serve something. He's going to lose some ranking points. I feel more comfortable moving on with the rest of it. I don't know how you feel. That's how I feel. Yeah, I feel more comfortable with Yannick Sinner and kind of less, well, certainly no more comfortable with the system. Like this case.
It increases my comfort level with Yannick Sinner and just enjoying him as a tennis player and not sort of having a knotty feeling in my stomach. But it doesn't increase my feelings of satisfaction with the... anti-doping system that we have and its fitness for purpose in deterring doping and catching.
catching doping like i i feel as um dissatisfied with with the system as i ever have you know I just always end up at back at square one it feels like which is that I don't know who's doing what I don't know what the ethics of what they are and aren't doing are and I don't understand or trust the systems that are supposedly there to help me know which is all just really unsatisfactory
David, how do you feel about the point that I think you made last year, which was that, you know, if Yannick Sinner ends up with a ban as a result of this case? I think you said last year that you might feel a bit uncomfortable about, for example, maybe his US Open that he won or his Australian Open that he won because he might have been serving a ban. During that time, I think I kind of thought like these cases take as long as as they take and it isn't necessarily like.
you get banned straight away. But I do think there is a world where this case is handled differently and Yannick Sinner misses one of those big tournaments. And I think that will always feel a little bit... But I do agree with you that generally it has helped in terms of Yannick Sinner.
clear the air a little bit yeah I do think there are a lot of people out there who will think that that US Open and or if it had been tried a bit later that Australian Open shouldn't have counted because he could have well he got a three-month ban and yet very conveniently that three-month ban is now going to fit in between two grand slam titles and it'll never show on his record as amounting to very much
I can understand why people would feel like that. And there's definitely a bit in the back of my mind about that, yes. As I said back then. But honestly, I'm ready to move on. Yes. Well, the good news for you, David, is we can move on to another uncomfortable news subject in part two. If you already prepay for your energy, a smart meter means you can top up at the touch of a button. Whether you're on the sofa, with your little cherubs, at the shops, after the shops have...
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When investing your capital is at risk, tax rules apply. Search Vanguard now. Every day UK businesses sell their products and services to the world. At great.gov.uk, you'll find free support from the UK government. Welcome back to... Part two, where we move on now to another pretty big news story that broke in the tennis world midweek. The WTA statement landing that...
An independent investigation into a potential breach of the WTA code of conduct by Stefano Vukov, of course, coach of Elena Rabachna, has concluded, they said. Following this process, the suspension remains... In a fair and objective manner. in accordance with the code of conduct. That was all the WTA put out about the matter. The Athletic did have some further detail in their reporting of the story. They had two sources who were briefed on the WTA investigation.
saying that the ban is one year in duration, the ban for Stefano Vukov. They said the WTA did not publicly release a report on its investigation, which had been looking into complaints that Vukov... had been verbally abusive to Rabakina. Portia Archer, the chief executive of the WTA tour, informed them, so Rabakina and Vukov, of the decision on January 31st.
Archer issued Vukov a three-page summary in which she stated that Vukov has violated the TOR's code of conduct by calling Rabatkin a stupid and telling her that without him she would, quote, still be in Russia picking potatoes. That, according to a source, briefed on the investigation, who has reviewed the letter and is in contact with Rabakina's camp. Archer also stated in the letter that investigators had concluded that Vukov had made Rabakina cry.
and subjected Rabakina to mental abuse and pushing her beyond her physical limits, which caused Rabakina to become ill. And perhaps most importantly, Archer said she had concluded that Vukov had harassed Rabakina by refusing to leave her... alone during the US Open. Last year, in the weeks following her dismissal of him, when he sent her multiple texts, in addition, he violated the no contact directive that was part of the WTA's provisional suspension of him. We need a safe environment.
Archer stated, calling Vukov's behaviour a contradiction to that. It's clear to me you have a toxic relationship, Archer wrote. She stated in the letter that while there is increasing evidence that Vukov and Rabatkin are involved in a romantic relationship and that he stayed in a hotel room in Melbourne, that that does not change the fact. Now, David, as far as we can tell, this is pretty unprecedented for the WTA to be able to ban a coach. in this way for reasons like this. Now...
Our understanding of the situation is that, you know, the WTA are very aware of how unprecedented it is and the gravity of this. And it is, you know, it's gone through some legal ringers. I think. And that perhaps is why the ban is only one year in duration. But it is a ban and it does show some teeth, at least, to... the WTA's rules and codes surrounding coaching behaviour? Yeah, I think it's pretty big in terms of just a statement alone that they...
are prepared to act on this sort of evidence. And, I mean, huge props to Charlie Eccleshare and Matt Futterman of The Athletic for managing to get as much... out there as they have, and to find out as much as they have about what was uncovered in this investigation. And yes, I mean, you can debate the length of the ban, but... The fact that there is one, yeah, I can't remember anything quite like this before. And it definitely sends a bit of a message out there, I think, about behavior.
the consequences of it. And I mean, I think it's particularly strong and it's been difficult for the WTA because you've had Elena Rybakina stating throughout that...
She doesn't agree with it and she doesn't want it and that he's never mistreated her in recent months. This is what she's been saying. But, you know, you only have to listen to those... those details in that in that reporting from the athletic and if you're not bothered by that then there's something wrong with you you know that's not not okay and um you know
And we've heard that her agent is no longer working with her and that he's going to become instrumental in that part of her world as well. I guess we'll wait and see whether that comes to fruition. Maybe it never will officially, but that's certainly what we've been told. And, yeah, these things are concerning. And I think that...
Credit to the WTA for not backing down and not just letting this lie. Yeah, I think that's the really critical element of this, isn't it? That they've been able to enforce this ban. despite the player publicly stating that she doesn't... want this to happen without the support of the player in question, the player that they're trying to protect. And I know, you know, that's that's really, really tough for Elena Rabakina. But, you know, as we've heard from.
Pam's story, so much of the issue with enforcing safeguarding is that so many victims of abusive or toxic situations don't realise when they're in them that their situations, their relationships are abusive and toxic. You don't have to read up that far on coercive control to kind of feel that as a real... nub of the issue. So the fact that the WTA have been able to enforce this, Matt, in spite of Rabatkin's... refusal of it and look, you know, there could be some sort of protest from Elena.
Rebecca and her are all kind of on alert for how she's going to respond to it. It doesn't feel like the saga ends here, but that feels like a crucial piece of this puzzle to me. Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. I think it's really strong from the WCA that they've enforced this ban even without Rebecca Cano as one of the complainants. As you said, that was the...
biggest lesson to me from Pam Shriver's story. And, you know, in doing so, the WTA will feel that they are looking out for Elena Rabatkinner. You know, they've obviously pointed there to a... to a pattern of pretty disturbing behaviour from Vukov. But they, I think, will also feel like they're looking out for the rest of...
the WTA tour, right? Like they don't want this, this guy on site when he's broken their code of conduct. Um, and look, he's, he's, he's broken it in one way towards Elena Rabakina, but you know, He could also be around other players. And if I were a player on the WTA tour, I wouldn't want to be around someone and, you know, at practice courts and all that kind of thing with someone who has...
who has displayed that behaviour. So I think it is strong from the WTA. I think the question is kind of where do we go from here, as you said, given that the ban... we think is only, I say only, I do think that's quite strong, but only a year, like what happens in a year's time if Rebecca still wants him around and wants him...
back on site it does feel like there's whereas whereas with the sinner story it really feels like kind of as you said the resolution to that case this this feels like a big moment but still still a long long way to go in terms of what ends up happening here and and just all throughout it we have kept just hoping that Elena Rabatkinner is is okay and well, and I'm still worried about that. Constantly worried about that. But this is a move that has implications beyond...
Elena Abackner, because it does send a message that toxic behaviour, whether the person that you're mistreating or abusing is aware of it or not, is... You're on watch. I'd hope it's difficult as it is to enforce. They have had to meticulously compile... You know, this has been a heck of a process, as I understand it, from the WTA. Like, there are the teeth there to do this. And I hope that that sends a message because, you know, this is this...
It seems like a very extreme and very stark and extremely sad case, but we know that it's not an isolated one. And the problem is a lot bigger than Stefano Vukov. This is, in a very sad landscape, a positive thing, I think, to have happened. Folks, that's it for part two. There is more controversy. To discuss, coming your way in part three. Saturday night. Tuesday morning. That's summer. No matter what happened, you deserve support. Call 0808 500 2222 or visit...
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In fact, everything's Premier when your bank account is. Search HSBC Premier. HSBC UK. Opening up a world of opportunity. Apply with £100,000 annual income or £100,000 savings or investments with HSBC UK or Premier status abroad. Welcome back to part three of the tennis podcast, where we turn our attention now to New York and the US Open, which is changing the format. Oh, is it changing the format of its mixed doubles? competition. It is picking it up.
Roland Garros style and moving it to the week before the tournament begins. Fan week, if you will. The event is to take place on the 19th and the 20th of August. It will have $1 million total. It will consist of 16 teams. The early round matches will be best of three sets played to just four games. So tie breaks at four all and then a 10 point tie breaker. in a third set and all games will have sudden death juice the final will more more resemble
a normal Grand Slam match. That'll be best of three sets played to six games rather than four. Still with no ad scoring, tiebreakers will be at six all and there will still be a 10-point match tiebreak. Tournament organisers believe... that they can attract the sport's biggest stars. Lou Scher, executive director and CEO of the USTA, said, what I would say is the reason behind this is to appeal to more fans and grow the fan base around the world.
But the way to do that is to have the biggest names in the sport participating in doubles and to showcase them teaming up and playing in a different format. We think it's exciting. In fact, we know it's exciting. Eight teams will earn direct entry by their combined singles ranking, with eight other teams given wildcards into the field.
Scherr declined to name any players who had committed, but said enough have expressed interest that some teams could even be announced in the coming weeks, long before the field is set in the summer. on Arthur Ashe and Louis Armstrong Stadiums, the two biggest stadiums, and it'll be televised on ESPN in prime time. Schur said that the prize money that was allocated to the third...
32-team mixed doubles tournament at last year's US Open would be redirected towards men's and women's doubles. There's been a lot of responses to this. The Australian Open is immediately... ruled out doing anything similar. There has been some positive... Jessica Begula said, I appreciate the importance of innovation and exploring new ways to engage more fans and grow our sport. Pam Shriver spoke to The Athletic saying that during her career she opted not to play much mixed doubles because...
juggling that singles and women's doubles was a lot. She said, given the journey doubles has taken since the end of my career, I think this new format makes sense. If you told me I could have played mixed the week before the singles, I think I would have done it. Austin Krejcik, the former doubles number one.
also speaking to The Athletic said, it just becomes an exhibition for singles guys, for singles guys, which, you know, that's not the worst thing. Those tournaments have to evolve and then look for ways to sell more tickets and make money, but to call it mixed doubles.
is not correct. So kind of... mixed there and taylor fritz speaking in delray beach said a lot of doubles players will be upset about it but at the end of the day the truth of the matter is that mixed doubles as it was isn't adding that much to the slams It's not creating a lot of excitement. They're not filling up stadiums. It doesn't all need to be about the money and driving people, but people will be more excited to watch it with the top singles players playing together in mixed doubles.
I think the fans are going to be more excited about it. I think there's a very good chance that I'll play the mixed doubles competition, honestly. It falls at a good time. It's going to be really exciting. All the people are going to be excited about it. And I genuinely love playing mixed doubles. I think he thinks it's going to be exciting. He says again, for people like me, I'm excited about it.
I think it would be a good change, but obviously I'm biased towards it because it's in a better spot for me to play when I'm never going to play it in between singles matches and during the tournament. So I would never play it otherwise, he said. Now as you might expect a lot of doubles players are pretty upset.
about this. Zahra Irani and Andrea Vavisori, the defending US Open mixed doubles champions, released a pretty heartfelt statement, a joint statement, an extract of which is making decisions just following... the logic of profit is profoundly wrong in some situations. They said that mixed doubles had been
turned completely upside down, cancelled and replaced with a pseudo exhibition focused only on entertainment and show. They described it as a profound injustice that disrespects an entire category. of players. Katarina Siniarkova, the world doubles number one, who's also an excellent singles player, shared Iranian Vavasori's post. Paul McNamee, former... Doubles number one said it devalued the title.
Ellen Perez, the doubles player, she won the title in Abu Dhabi a couple of weeks ago, said on Twitter, tell us that you think doubles players are trash, that tradition is overrated and job opportunity is a thing of the past without actually saying it. David, where do you come down? Well, I agree with lots and lots and lots of things I've heard. It's just that lots of those things are contradicting one another. I mean, I think...
Mixed doubles and doubles generally does need change, does need overhauling. I am frustrated at how it's scheduled and how it's not... centre stage very often and how great doubles can be and is so often just... you know, shunted to the sidelines with hardly anybody watching and with loads and loads of players that nobody's ever heard of because they don't play singles. At the same time, it seems to me what they've done is they've...
I mean, I'm a big fan of fan week and this third week of Grand Slams. Big fan of it. I love the qualifying.
improvements made at the French Open and the big show they've made of that. Enjoyed going to Fan Week myself with my kids and my wife at the US Open last year. I went on the first day of it. I had a fantastic day. And, you know, there were so many thousands through the... gates is brilliant but it does seem to me that they've just they've just taken what was a little experiment with this mixed madness um exhibition night at the us open fan week of last year and thought oh
Lots and lots of players are playing. People seem interested. Let's turn this into the mixed doubles championships. That's what they've done. And it's gone, to my mind, way too far. Way too far. There was a medium here that they could have found that would have nailed this. You know, I can't...
I would have to go through it in depth in order to work out exactly what I think that would be. But it's somewhere between the two because, look, I'm afraid you watch the mixed doubles final and Irani and Vavasori, I understand how they feel, but... Their trophy presentation has virtually nobody in the background because hardly anybody's watching it. So there is a problem there. But this just doesn't feel like a... Tennis championships.
It's an exhibition. It's a fun night, fun couple of nights. And of course, Taylor Fritz and Jessica Bagula like it. They are actually on the press release, I noticed. So they'll be playing. I mean, you know, fair play Andy Roddick. You got Lou Sher. and... Eric Buterak and the people involved in the US Open on his podcast and to explain this decision. And Roddick was even saying, oh, you know, I mean, Serena Williams might not be able to play.
Two out of three sets anymore, but she could play this. Roger Federer. Can't play three out of five sets anymore, but he could play four games. I mean, I don't know whether he was just joking when he was saying this stuff, but it didn't sound like he was joking. I think, OK, well, now you're just making a mockery of it. I mean, basically, you're talking about a show.
And yes, it'll be successful. It'll get loads and loads of eyeballs on it. And that's great. I love the fun and the exhibition week of the US Open. But you can't then call that a Grand Slam championship. I mean, you can, you are, but I'm not taking that seriously. I'm not going to... I can't put that in the bloody roll of honour. It exposes sort of an uncomfortable...
Undeniable truth, doesn't it? Which is that, you know, regardless of whether you like this move or not, like it is a move that disrespects doubles players. Like all of the wording about... top players wanting top singles players to play like it is extremely clear that the US Open and frankly you know all the other grandsons would probably feel the same that
They don't want Ellen Perez winning their mixed doubles title. They want Taylor Fritz and Jessica Bagula winning their doubles title. Like, this is undeniably disrespectful. It might be, you know, realistically so and still... the right thing to try and encourage top singles players to play for the good of the sport, etc. But it is unquestionably a huge diss.
to doubles players and and like if the sport wants to have that reckoning about what doubles should look like then it needs to have that conversation rather than just And disrespecting the players that do play doubles in this way and not consulting them at all. Like the players were completely blindsided by this. And, you know, doubles is set up.
now so that because of the you know because of the demands of of singles you know most top singles players don't play doubles so this whole sort of category of doubles players exists and you're you're just taking an event away from them that they would have been expecting
and hoping to be able to play. And that does seem really, really unfair. And they have killed the mixed doubles tournament at the US Open and replaced it with an exhibition for top singles players in fan week. That's what this is.
And I agree, like, it may well evolve into something that is better. Because, I mean, it's already a little bit arbitrary about what... grand slam tennis is you know we've already got a difference of five sets and three sets between men and women we've already got tie breaks coming in in final sets we've already sometimes got no ad scoring so it's already a little bit arbitrary but I think as a sport we should all agree that it's not fast four with sudden death deuce
And a whole tournament taking place over two days. That is just the red line that should be there. That is not a Grand Slam caliber competition. If it were to evolve to something a bit more of a happy medium, a bit more like the actual final is going to be, where you've got...
like a couple of sets and then a match tie break. If it's going to evolve so that half the field aren't wild cards, I think maybe we could get on board with something like that. But as it is, it does feel like a pretty... pretty outrageous move and look if tennis wants to move back to a time where you know people talk about doubles in the past and how it was this this this sort of great thing and mostly what they mean is that the top players were playing.
You know, you think about the great doubles teams of the past and you think of Martina and Pam and you think of Macken and Fleming and Newcombe and Roach and Serena and Venus played a lot of doubles together. These were the top singles players as well. Yes, there are... Hopefully, you know, always going to be some double specialists as well. The Bryans, the Woodies, you know, Cara Black, Liesl Huber, like that can happen. But...
If the sport wants to go to a place where top singles players are playing doubles again, then it needs to have that conversation. It needs to think about what it can actually do to the singles event so that they can play doubles. Rather than just... creating an exhibition for the very very top players it just seems like a pretty like maybe the end goal is a good one like we want more top singles players to play doubles like i i can i can get on board with that
But the actual way they've gone about it, by actually just killing the competition and creating this exhibition, which is going to be completely meaningless, I'm not on board with, I suppose. Yeah, I had a very similar kind of overarching takeaway other than like Fast 4 is bad. There's just no scenario for tennis where fast forward is a good thing. It does not exist. But yeah, my other biggest takeaway was that this is further evidence that...
The Grand Slams can just do what they want with their formats and with their competitions. Like all of these, you know, issues in the sport, late finishes, shafting women, you know. Players, you know, the men... frequent kind of withdrawals and retirements and players dead on their feet mid-tournament because they've come through three, five setters in week one and it's just killed them for week two.
all these problems are solvable if there is a will there. Like, the levers exist. And it's bizarre to me that all this sort of talk of top... wanting top players to play doubles. Like, quite a lot of WTA singles players do play doubles. You know, Coco Gauff has been world number one. Jessica Bagula has played a lot of doubles.
Katerina Siniarkova and Barbora Karachikova. Jelena Rostopenko is playing loads of doubles. A lot of WCA top players still play a lot of doubles. And they play best of three sets. That is not a coincidence. If you really, really want to solve problems in tennis, we need to have a far bigger picture conversation, a far bigger picture thinking. about this um and it yeah it just feels so kind of knee-jerk and
I don't know. I'm sure it's not like I'm not suggesting lots of thought hasn't gone into this. I'm just not sure it's. Yeah, I'm sure it's the right thought was definitely not the right thought because it's led to fast four. Crap four. Fast four and no ad is absolutely egregious. It's just not tennis. It's not tennis. Don't touch the scoring, folks. the in-game scoring. Anyway.
Anything to add, David? Vicky Spreadbury, who we announced is now part of the Tennis Podcast team this week, and we're absolutely thrilled that that is the case. She did a, well, she's, I mean, she's sort of constantly just casually churning out incredible... She did a particularly brilliant one about the US Open mixed doubles move this week, didn't she? Yes.
Which really did rather sum it all up, I think, to perfection. And, no, I just think it's just too far, too quick, too sudden, and... I reckon they might end up rowing back some of it and ending up that you end up with a bit like when they went Davis Cup all in on finals. weak and now they've got this sort of hybrid model um and look i i get what lou share is saying
I'm sure it'll be a ratings winner, but you've just created an exhibition a couple of nights, really, is what you've done. Great, well done you, but you actually can't. have people take that seriously as a grand slam, I don't think. OK, we've reached the end of our news. Anyone want to just... quickly check and that nothing's dropped while we've been recording.
I'd hate to have to come back and do another bonus show. An unprecedented part four. Yeah. Or Matt's Inissimova chat just suddenly gets curtailed. Yeah. Don't you dare, tennis. You just never know with tennis. You've got to be on guard at all times. How ridiculous of us to try and make weekend plans. OK, folks, that's it for this show. But we will be back in less than 24 hours to time to talk about.
The backhand and other assorted tennis news. We get to go and watch João Fonseca against Francisco Sorundelo. Very excited about that final. Has anybody else got... fantasy players in action today? I believe your brother, Math, has Ugo and Bear in a final. Oh, yes. I've got players. Having had Yelena Ostopenko yesterday.
I've got players that are kind of in next week's tournament that have already started, if that helps. You've got a lot of players playing Ultimate Tennis Showdown, David. Oh, I don't want to... Don't even start with that. I'm going to be having words with them. Well, Matt is guaranteed Argentine points because he has both Francisco Sarindolo and Jao Fonseca in his team. Maximum points from Buenos Aires getting the...
getting the champion and the finalist. I'm pretty pleased with that. I'm wishing it was a 500. No, a thousand. South America needs a Masters 1000 event and they should make it this one so that I get even more fantasy points. Yeah, we'll talk about that final. We'll talk about all the tennis and whatever other news drops in the next 24 hours in tomorrow's show. We'll be back then. Hello to Phoebe. Hello to Maisie. Hello to Roger, our lovely mascots.
Hello to our top folks and executive producers, Greg, Chris and Jeff, and our episode mascot and shout out will return tomorrow. Thanks for listening. We'll speak to you then. Hear that happy business owner? They're whistling because they found a great deal for unlimited calls, texts and data with three business. Plans start from just £8 a month per sim, increasing to £8.50 in April 2025 and £9 in April 2026. Switch to free business for savings that'll give you something to whistle about.
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