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Hi, this is Marney Vanneberg from Houston, Texas. And you're listening to the tennis podcast. Well, hello and welcome to the tennis podcast on Monday, the 30th of September introduced beautifully there by Marney. Marney says as a bit of backstory here, it was very exciting to finally meet you at the US Open this year. I remember meeting Marney. She says after several years and two continents of looking for you, we finally ticked that box.
She says her husband Edwin and she started listening to the podcast after reading the New York Times article about the pod. She says she's proud to be a friend for the last few years. First picked up a racket 10 years ago at the age of 48 and she absolutely loves it. She says she'd play every day if she could.
She says thanks for helping me grow my appreciation of the sport. It's history and the people in and around the sport through the relived pods. I cleaned up the intro this year. She says that there's no confusion. Even though I live in Houston, I will always be from New Orleans and that jogs my memory, Marney, of the debate we had surrounding your intro last year.
So appreciate that and appreciate your lovely lilting Southern accent and your brilliant introduction to the show there. And of course, if you dear listener would like to introduce a show, then you can do so by becoming a friend of the tennis podcast at intro level. And you can get access to all of those tennis relived pods and all of the other bonus content that we produce throughout the year as well.
The link to do that as always is in our show notes. David is here. Hello David. Hello, hello. Yes. And I'm a bit happier than I was a week ago when I was immediately complaining about the weather. It hasn't picked up. I've just found my hot water bottles and I'm coddling them as we speak. Yes, which makes them sound sort of furry and cozy. I can tell you folks they're not. They look sort of they're quite medical looking in appearance. I would say. But what I'm serving a purpose for you David.
I'm quite new to hot water bottles. So I didn't know they came in different sort of textures. I just just after this year heat. Well, they usually have a little jacket on don't they you've got just the innards. Yes. But anyway, so long as you warm, we're all happy Matt. How are you warm? I hope. I am warm. I'm wearing my tennis podcast hoodie, which is normally what you're rocking on one of these podcasts, Catherine.
I thought we were going to be dressed the same on on zoom, but but no, this is a rare week where you're not wearing this exclusive tennis podcast hoodie. So that sounded like a bit of a dig to suggest that you're only everywhere one item of clothing, but it wasn't meant to be. Well, but I am wearing mumbled at merch. So that's the other thing you're wearing. Yeah, it's probably a fair dig, certainly a fair genre of dig anyway.
Folks, it is a complicated week in terms of tennis. The tournaments that we're watching at the moment. None of them have, none of them have finished one of them is finishing on Wednesday. Some of them are going for another week. It's all very confusing and we, we of course, will be covering off the results and the events that hadn't finished last week at the time of record. We'll cover off what we've seen of Beijing on the men's and women's sides and of Tokyo so far.
And we will be back with a bonus pod this week on Thursday because lots of tennis is happening at weird times. So we're going to make sure we cover that for you. So we'll be getting into all of that today and on Thursday, but I think we have to start with the news that dropped on Saturday morning out of nowhere for me. I certainly didn't hear of anybody that knew this was coming.
The news that the world anti-doping agency are appealing the decision to clear Yannick's inner of blame after he twice tested positive for a banned substance water. Say that last month's ruling by an independent tribunal to find the Italian world and one had no fault on negligence was, quote,
not correct under the applicable rules. It is appealed to the court of arbitration for sport and said, soon it should be banned for between one and two years. Although they aren't seeking any retroactive action and they aren't seeking to discredit any of the results that have happened since, since those positive tests. IE, there is no question here, whatever the outcome of this appeal of the US open victory being taken off the books as it were.
Yannick's inner released the following statement in response to the news. He said he's disappointed here that water have chosen to appeal the result of the ITIA hearing after the independent judges had exonerated me and deemed me to be innocent. Over the past few months and throughout this process, there have been three separate hearings in each case confirming my innocence.
Several months of interviews and investigations culminated in three senior judges scrutinising every detail through a formal hearing. The issued an in-depth judgment explaining why they determined me not at fault with clear evidence provided my cooperation throughout. On the back of such a robust process, both the ITIA and the Italian anti-doping authority accepted it and waived their rights to appeal.
I understand these things need to be thoroughly investigated to maintain the integrity of the sport we all love. However, it is difficult to see what will be gained by asking a different set of three judges to look at the same facts and documentation all over again.
That being said, I have nothing to hide and as I have done throughout the summer, I will cooperate fully with the appeal process and provide whatever may be needed to prove my innocence once again, as the case is now pending before cast, I won't comment further.
Now, he states there that the process that has already taken place, the International Tennis Integrity Unit Hearing deemed him to be innocent. Now, according to one interpretation, which is obviously Yannick Sinner's interpretation, that is true.
Innocent, he was cleared of any intentional wrongdoing. Now, from what I can gather, David, of reading what's come out from WADA, what is at issue here is the extent to which Yannick Sinner is responsible for the actions of his team. Is that your interpretation as well? It is because he had it in his system, so it's not as though he was just completely found innocent. Yes, he was found innocent of wrongdoing, of he wasn't found guilty of negligence as we hear there.
But I can understand why another body looking at the same facts might take the view that, well, you are responsible for the people you hire and they are responsible for having put this in your system. So, therefore, you are responsible for its existence in your system as well. I don't think it's a cut and dried case, and therefore I'm not actually that surprised that two groups are coming up with different views of this.
And on one level, I do feel for him. It's obviously stressful. It's obviously wearing. We heard from him during the US Open. We found him to be very compelling and convincing in the way that he explained everything. And then he came in and he won the US Open, but two things that strike me. One, the idea, as he says, it's difficult to see what will be gained by asking a different set of judges to look at the same facts and documentation all over again.
In that case, you're just completely refuting the idea of appeals. You're effectively saying, what's the point of appeals given I've already been found innocent of negligence. So, if the shoes on the other foot, therefore, if you got done, are you saying you wouldn't want an appeal because some judges have already found you innocent or already found you guilty rather.
That's one thing. And I don't know. I think the thing with this is now, if he does end up having this upheld and doesn't and gets banned, obviously, if you were to be banned, that's that significant impact to his career. But I do think historically, you would then have to look at his US Open with an asterisk, even if they're not taking it away from him and they're not seeking to disqualify it.
Everybody would know that the end results, if it had been found in the first instance, would have meant you wouldn't have competed in that US Open. So, this is massively significant. Now, he may well now get this appeal heard and refuted as well. So, he may end up coming out in exactly the same position. And then that would be that. But it might not. And there's going to be a period now. He is eligible to play.
And I understand why he doesn't want to talk about it anymore while this is ongoing. But it does mean that every time he plays, that just has to be in the back you mind somewhere. Because this is pending and who knows how long this is going to take. You know, I spent quite a long time with the communications officer for the International Tennis Centaurist Agency during the US Open. And just heard just how difficult these cases are to to undergo and put together and how long it takes.
And I was saying, well, why don't you and Cass spend time together and work it out and get more of a common idea. And he said they don't want to speak. We don't have any contact with them at all. They won't talk to us. So, who knows how long this is going to take. And look in terms of it, it weighing on him. We just watched him beat Yuri Laheshka, 6276 to reach a semi-finals in Beijing.
Just as we now know is the case throughout the summer and was winning Cincinnati. His on court results so far seem remarkably untouched by this off court drama. It's an interesting point you make about sort of the appeals process and sort of what's the point in different eyes looking at the same case. In the court of law to appeal you do have to have fresh evidence. You can't just ask for someone else to have a different look at a case and see if they view it differently.
You have to present something new. But I believe that's not the case in this situation. What, they're actually not asking the evidence to be reexamined in terms of what happened is my understanding. But I don't think that's the case. I don't think that's the case. I don't think that's the case.
I've been in the post for a long time, Matt, because nothing specific to Yannitson is case here. But do we want it to be a defence? To be able to say, yeah, yeah, I had that performance enhancing drug in my system. But I didn't know anything about it. That's all down to my team. I feel like this is a, as teams have been proliferating over the course of the last particularly 10 years, I think.
And I think that's going to happen in gradually before that. Maybe we are due an examination of this bigger picture issue, and it does sound like that is going to be at the heart of this court of arbitration for sport hearing. Absolutely. And I suppose I was probably quite quick to just very much kind of agree with what Yannitson has said during that US Open, which was we know the source.
It was members of my team, and I've got rid of those team members. And you know, I sort of took Sinner's word on that, but it is an important question, I suppose. If you accept, as the ITIA and WADA both do, that Sinner himself didn't intend to enhance his performance, then there's still a couple of possible plausible scenarios, which need examining.
There's a situation where his fitness trainer and physio at the time, and Bartos for our, and Yakima now the didn't intend to enhance Sinner's performance. But now the unknowingly massugs Sinner with Klosterball from the spray that for our had bought, and so it was all a complete accident.
But that's why Sinner tested positive. And that's what the team have said happened. But there's also a scenario B where it was intentional on the part of Sinner's team to enhance his performance behind Sinner's back, but using Klosterball to help him gain an edge. Now we don't know the answer to that. It's not what's on trial, but the question of whether Sinner, as the employer of those team members, is responsible for their actions, is the crux of this.
And I think it's reasonable that WADA, a different body, has come to a different conclusion, because you don't want to sport where scenario B is happening all the time. And to prevent that, one way might be to say that a player is responsible and should face consequences for their team's actions, no matter whether they knew about it or not, and no matter whether those actions from the team were intentional or not.
Yeah, like just optically, this news dropping was pretty shocking, because it felt like Beijing was kind of the moment for Yannick Sinner to move on from this, because he's literally sitting there with his new team members, Marco Pinicci and Yulisis Badiot, who are very familiar from a coaching box perspective, because they've been in Novac Djokovic's box for a long, long time. He's hired the people that know that Djokovic had with him to replace for our analogy.
And he's sort of literally on court with them in this sort of moving on from the case, and yet this news drops, and we know how much, okay, it hasn't affected his results, as we've seen, he's currently on a 14 match winning streak, he was winning things before the world knew about this case, he was winning things after the world knew about this case.
But we know that it's taken a toll on him personally, he's spoken about that, and how he has shrunk his world, and I feel like eventually that might catch up with him, and it's just sort of, it's a lot for him to be processing and have going on right now. And yeah, like for sure, it's a big moment, because if the world number one ends up getting banned for a long time, then we've obviously got this, you know, that changes to the complexion of men's tennis going forward.
And as David said, it would, it would change how we view this year as well, because if Wilders verdict had been come to in the first place, then he wouldn't have been playing the US Open that he ended up winning. So it's a massive moment for the sport, and I think you're absolutely right, that it does raise that huge question of how responsible are our players for the actions of their team members.
You know, we, we credit coaches, don't we, when, when players do good things on court, and therefore should we be holding the players responsible when their coaches maybe do something that's, that's wrong. Like, like they've done in this case or not his coaches, but his, you know, his team. So it's, it's incredibly complicated that that question, and I'm not, I suppose the issue I have is like, there isn't a clear cut answer.
So if he does end up getting banned, it will kind of feel a little bit unfair. And if he doesn't end up getting banned, you also think, well, maybe that's kind of wrong as well, like just such a, such a difficult place to come down on one side, I think, which makes it so hard. Yeah, I agree. I think if, if what a win this appeal, I will have a lot of sympathy, the annex in a lot. But equally, I think it's very important for the integrity of the sport going forward that it is not possible.
And I'm absolutely not suggesting this is what's happened with the annex center. I'm just saying that this principle of the responsibility you have for your team, I think, I think this could set quite a precedent because I, as I was saying, I think it's very important for the integrity of the sport, any sport. That it is not possible just to have a don't ask, don't tell policy with the people you employ.
Because I do think that opens a gateway to a defense cheating defense, basically, to, you know, I'm employing you, just make me the best tennis player I can be. I don't need, I don't need to know the details. So I think it's very, very important that that is not possible and admissible within the rules. But for the annex center to potentially be the, the landmark case to set that example and make that statement is, is quite a thing.
And David, well, you've touched upon it in terms of, you know, looking at how the US Open Victory would be viewed if this water appeal is successful. But this is just a disaster for tennis, isn't it? It just looks so bad for tennis. If the appeal is successful, it'll look bad for the tennis integrity agency.
It'll look bad for tennis. It'll make records a nightmare. You know, whenever you see a graphic of numbers of Grand Slam's one, you'll always do a bit of mental gymnastics for the US Open Asterisk. Will there be a World No. 1 Asterisk? It's just a nightmare for the sport.
Yeah, nobody's winning here at all. I do share your view about somehow the need to get to a bit more of a conclusive view over what isn't, isn't negligence and just have that as the rules so that everybody understands where they are. But you're right. I mean, having spent this time with the rep Adrian Bassett from the international tennis integrity agency, I mean, he was saying, you know, we'll, we'd be happy to have you in and talk to you about, you could grill us.
Speak to us about any element of this that you want. You know, we obviously can't talk about specific cases, but how we work and all this sort of stuff. You can, you can feel their frustration at not being able to be to have the trust of the sport and the fans and the players and everybody in the way that they'd love the process to have the trust.
And I'm afraid there isn't, there isn't a way you can trust feel completely confident given the number of cases that are going to cast and just being completely overruled. And with massive discrepancies, see the scenario and the halft case. So yeah, well, all we can do is wait and find out what comes out of this, but it's is a big blow. No question. She's, she's just stopped playing again next week. I think, Hal, isn't she? Did I, did I see that? No, that's right.
I mean, interesting off the court, on the court, but obviously off the court, that means, you know, she's going to be doing some press, isn't she? Yeah. We'll, we might get to hear more of her, her views on, on a thing or two. Okay, well, look, we will follow that very closely and keep you posted on it. There is no timeline at the moment for that hearing.
As is well documented, it's very much a how long is a piece of string thing. So for the moment, it hangs over the sport and it hangs over Yannick's inner. Should we stay in the vaguely legal domain? What are next news item? Wimbledon's plans to expand this is from various reporting in the UK, press, including on the BBC and the Guardian. And from me personally, I attended some of this hearing virtually before deciding it was simply two boring and tapping out to go for a wet dog walk.
But I did do some hashtag journalism here. Wimbledon's expansion plans have been given the green light after the deputy mayor of London, Jules pipe ruled at the end of a three hour public hearing at City Hall, that the quote, very significant benefits of the scheme outweighed any potential harm to the environment. And there were some protesters present. There were some booze from the gallery when this verdict came down a verdict that had felt a bit of a full gone conclusion on the day.
Certainly there had been some briefing going on that this was going to be the likely outcome. But there were protests and I know, you know, from person experience, there is strong depth of feeling from those that are opposed, including the local MP, Flore Anderson, who remains opposed to the plan and spoke on Friday against it.
The plans include growing from 41 to 115 hectares on the side of the old Wimbledon Park Golf Course. Do you think there's any other countries in the world that use hectares as a, as a unitive measurement? Does anybody outside of the UK know what we're talking about? Do I even know what we're talking about? I wrote it in the agenda and have absolutely no concept of what it means. It's, it's, it's getting bigger. It's getting bigger.
So I should tell you you are welcome. Almost trebling, almost trebling in size, according to my maths. Building 39 new courts, including one 8,000 ceter permanent structure that'll have a roof, bringing, they'll be bringing qualifying on site and allowing 10,000 people a day to attend. That's up from the 2000 people a day that are able to attend qualifying currently at Rohampton. It'll increase the grounds capacity to 50,000 per day during the main championships.
And they'll be upgrading the facilities for all the players. The EELTC's chief executive Sally Bolton is thrilled. Obviously, it's fantastic news. She says we've got some legal agreements to work through. Then we can look forward to delivering one of the greatest transformations since the London Games, which I think we're all very excited about delivering.
There is still the possibility of a judicial review and appeal essentially an attempt could be made to challenge the lawfulness of the way the decision was made on the grounds of illegality, procedural unfairness or irrationality, but the bar remains high. There's only a very small number of these cases succeed each year. I think it's fewer than 10% in terms of judicial reviews that are accepted.
I guess no one will relax given the bumpy road this has been until the threat of judicial review is gone. But it looks almost certainly like this is happening. Look, as I said, there is there is strong feeling against locally, but we are a tennis podcast. And in terms of tennis and Wimbledon, this is good news, David.
I do try to keep that in mind, but on a very selfish level as somebody who cares about the sport, this is brilliant news. I'm not personally affected by it in the area. I understand that. Obviously, there is a green belt question mark that some would have. Although the plans that I've seen and people that I've spoken to, it does feel like there's a real understanding of the importance of creating parkland within this new development.
I just cannot believe the Wimbledon won't make this beautiful and special and really something and ultimately way, way better than it was before. And from a sporting perspective, I think Debbie Jevons, the chair is absolutely right. It's become more apparent than ever this year that Wimbledon was falling behind in terms of that third week in particular.
It's been creeping for a while ever since the Australian Open first started staging practice matches in the lead up to the Australian Open. And then the US Open started to try to launch its fan week. But it was when the French Open opened up qualifying to everybody and started sticking the whole thing in court Susan Longman for 12,000 people to come out and watch first round qualifying that I just knew that OK, Grand Sams are three weeks now.
And they're constantly trying to one up each other and even assuming all of this goes ahead as planned and is available for Wimbledon between 2013 and 2013, 33 imagine how much progress these other Grand Sams are going to make in the next six to nine years on developing their week before. Now, I think because Wimbledon will be building at the same time, I can only imagine how special it will be the day that Wimbledon finally opens the doors for that extra week.
And I suspect that all of those six to nine years, you will then on that moment think, OK, we see where all this has been building towards. It's to this moment and it's worth it. But they're going to have to put up with another six to nine years of frustration whilst all the other Grand Sams are making strides. I think as long as this goes through, they will be able to think and we will all be able to think, yeah, but at least they're able to do it now and it'll be worth it in the end.
But yeah, I think the stakes are really quite high for Wimbledon here, huge in fact. And in terms of judicial review, we will of course keep you posted. That's it for the legal segment of the podcast, the procedural segment. A couple of other bits of news before we talk about results from the week that has just been Raffa on the dial has been picked for Spain's Davis Cup finals squad.
Could we get the Alcara no, no, no, the Nadal caras. Could we get the Nadal caras Nadal retirement that we deserve Matt in Malaga. Well, as I said before, the Spain literally have the doubles world number one at the moment who is Marcel Granos yes. And yet I think yes, I think we probably will get Nadal and Alcara as doubles if it comes to that.
I mean, if you're David for how could you, how could you not pick that team if it's available to you? Like I just, I just think that would be incredibly hard to resist. Alcara's certainly spoke about this in in Beijing and Alcara's is up for it. He said he missed Nadal at, at Laver Cup and he hopes to play with him in Malaga. I think that probably probably is the only way we would be seeing Nadal like actually play barring injury.
I just think, you know, Indoor Hardcore has never been Nadal's best surface anyway. And obviously Alcara has his absolute lock to play singles. He's got a lot of work to do with that. He's got a lot of work to do with that. He's got a lot of work to do with that.
When he announced this team, he very much saved Nadal to last and put him in as the kind of fifth pick. And I think he's there in that role. He's going to bring the vibe. He's going to bring the energy. And if he's available and ready to play doubles, he's going to be fired up and most likely taking to court in the doubles. But potentially a chance that we see Nadal and Gdano, yes. Like because Alcara has not shown himself to be a particularly brilliant doubles player.
But as I said, how can you resist in the Dalarna Alcara? I just don't think for Rare is the guy that's going to go Carlos, sorry, no, you're on the bench for this one Marcel, you're on. I just don't think David Ferrer is going to do that. Matt, you're all- Yes, you've suddenly actually got yourself some options there. Like if Alcara's got a little tweak or something like that. Or if he's played like a three and a half hours singles match and they need to protect him a little bit.
You're being very dismissive, Matt, of the Saudi Kings because Nadal is the, I think, second seed at the Saudi Kings. Is scheduled to play singles? It's how right. Wow. In just a few weeks time. Yeah, Nadal and Jockovich are the top seeds, suspiciously, and they get a buy through to the semi-finals. This is the exhibition tournament featuring six top male tennis players, although Holgeruna should have very pleased to be their energy throughout the entire experience.
I've just watched him lose to sort of one legged art of feasts. Yeah, and I mentioned it because the draw came out this week, but also that eye-wateringly expensive looking promo feature film dropped this week and is making some waves on the internet. And the dial is playing singles. Second seed. That's what being Saudi Arabia's tennis ambassador gets you, I suppose, the second seed in that. I think they've done seeding on the basis of age and injury from what I can gather.
Who is physically able to play three matches? No, not you two. Yeah, I mean, some people are going nuts for this promo video and look, as I said, it's dripping in money. But all I saw when I watched it was sort of sadness that, oh, what people do, just all this money being spent on tennis, that's being spent on that tennis by those people. But this is what's possible. Can't we have some cleaner, less problematic money? I don't know, just depressing, isn't it? But anyway, I digress.
We will get to see hopefully some wholesome Nadalkaras in November in Malaga. Last bit of news before we move on to results and on court stuff. A bit of a tough one here. A social media post from Caroline Garcia announcing that she's shutting down her season. She says, I'm tired of living in a world where my worth is measured by last week's results, my ranking, or my unforeseen errors. Mentally, I need a reset. I need to step away from the constant grind of tennis.
I'm exhausted from the anxiety, the panic attacks, the tears before matches. I'm tired of missing out on family moments and never having a place to truly call home. Physically, I've been pushing my shoulder to its limit trying to recover while competing. And it's just not working. I need more time off to heal properly in my mind. I've been stuck on what I haven't achieved. I never made it to number one. Never won a single slam. Never reached an Olympic podium.
I've been inconsistent, unable to stay in the top 10 for a full year. I'm choosing to step away now. I'm taking a few weeks off to recharge. Then I'll stop preparing for 2025 early, getting ready physically, mentally and tactically. It's a bit of a kind of portrait of a modern tennis player that, isn't it? Because so many lines in there are familiar.
Thankfully, some of them are familiar from players who have kind of been through that emotional experience of feeling like they're worth is measured by their results. And having come out on the other side, or at least kind of mentally worked through those feelings in therapy or whatever. But it was alarming how familiar those words felt to me. And I don't know what the answer is because it is just an unbelievably demanding sport.
But it's difficult to know whether this is a worsening situation or whether it is players, people generally now have better language for these things and feel more able to express these things publicly, which is a very, very good thing that we're hearing about this more. And we should make, therefore, more accommodation for it. But it is alarming, David.
Yeah, as you were reading those quotes out, I was thinking they feel like the definitive version of what it is like to be a tennis player behind the scenes. If you actually look in the mirror and are honest with yourself about how you're feeling on the negative side. Listen, there are loads of positive sides to this as well to be an tennis player. But so often, even now, so often, you get the Instagram version of what it is like to be a tennis player.
And I think really over the years, that's what we've got more often than not with Caroline Garcia. She has her own hashtag, Fly With Karo and she's often sort of following up a loss with a tweet which says on to the next one and all the rest of it, which of course you have to feel as well. But I've often got the feeling that really, you were able to just put it behind you as quickly as that.
And I mean, in more recent times, I have seen other posts from her and she's got around podcasting which she's obviously, she's often examining mental health with other tennis players. But right here, I feel like you've got from her what has probably, well, what has been going on in her mind and in the background all along.
And which I think is probably going on for a lot of players. And if you ask, well, what's the kind of plus side, what's the end game to something like this, what's the answer. Maybe it's for other players to have to read what what she's got to say as somebody who's been on the tour for 10 years. And for them to acknowledge the dangers and the risks and the sort of the importance of taking breaks and not just giving into the tour treadmill.
We always say there's too much tennis and we sometimes have a gut for players for then playing exhibitions. Still not the same. Is it I, you could if you want, you can take a break. And yes, you may take a ranking says. And I do think maybe the sport needs to look at ways of not clobbering people rankings wise or financially if they don't turn up at a tournament so that they can have breaks more easily.
But I do think empowering players, empowering teams and families to be able to look at the words of Cowing R.C. And think, you know what, I think your risk of what she's describing there or I'm at risk of it and I need to stop for a bit. And I think that that should hopefully be helped by what she's just done.
Yeah, and just on the subject of players playing exhibitions and thus kind of weakening their argument about the amount of tennis and the length of the season and the demands of that on modern players. A few, a few male players have talked about that this week. It does just feel like that's coming to the fore a bit is a talking point. Taylor Fritz made the point on Twitter that exhibitions just are not comparable to tour events in terms of the mental and physical fatigue.
And XO show up, have some fun and entertain from that short. You don't have to all out push your body and there is absolutely zero mental fatigue or stress. In a lot of ways, an XO is a lot like a rest week, he says and shouldn't be compared with a tour event.
I don't expect non players to fully comprehend what I mean by this because it's tough to judge the mental and physical fatigue that playing at tour weeks and tails if you're not a part of it, but I would fully expect players to understand what I mean by this. And I do think that's a valid point. I still don't think it's the same as, you know, a proper break from the sport or even a proper block of time to make technical adjustments to your game.
I mean, that's simply not really possible without taking a break from the sport at the moment. But I do think that's a valid point Taylor Fritz makes that we should take into consideration. Dennis Schappelvalov made a slightly different defense of exhibitions. He said in my opinion, if players would make decent money during the season, they wouldn't feel the need to play XOs in off weeks instead.
Players aside from maybe the top 20 only make decent money four times a year, slams. So it's a no-brainer for players to play XOs for good cash. And then in reply to somebody else, he said, who was pointing out, you know, how much money tennis players make, he said, yeah, but take up taxes, percentages, salaries and expenses we play.
Tennis isn't like other sports, we keep the money you make. There are a lot of costs as a tennis player, not saying we don't make money just that we make much more money than much more money playing XOs. Not saying there isn't a grain of validity in that, but just a couple of counter points to Dennis Schappelvalov there. Number one, like it is the top 20 players in the world that generally are invited to play exhibitions. Like Liam Brody ain't getting invited to play many exhibitions.
It is the top players that the Saudi Kings want to come and play that, sorry, the Kings are the players themselves, aren't we? It is the Saudi Kings, Nadal and Jokovic at Al that are paid the big bucks for exhibitions. And number two, last time I checked, which was this week, so it's possible the internet isn't up to date, but Dennis Schappelvalov lives in Bahamas, which is a tax haven. And even if he didn't live in a tax haven, we all pay taxes, mate. That's a thing for everyone.
I think that's a really fun new pod segment. Catherine, community notes. Well, any tennis player has tweets, but Dennis Schappelvalov is in particular. Did you see Sitsapasse's tweet this week about the schedule, which was just lifted from AI, just fully written by AI, Chatty Cathy or something?
I don't know what it is, but like, because I will read a 1,000 word article or 500 word article, no problem. But if I see a tweet that's longer than 280 characters, I just don't read it. It's just too, it's just not the place that you wrote an absolute essay on there. I just couldn't get through any of it. And no, no, he lifted it from AI. He could have said to AI, make it the length that Matt Roberts feels comfortable with AI would have been capable of that.
Why did anyone know? Do you not feel that when you see a really long tweet? He just immediately just goes close it. Not really have to click for more to speak as they're not designed to be red light. Yeah, agreed. Right, that's your news for this week. We'll be back in part two with some tennis to talk about.
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Welcome back to the tennis podcast part two talking about the tennis that we've seen in the last week. None of the none of this week's tournaments are ended yet, but some have last week's tournaments did finally come to an end David. A week ago we were talking about your dashed hopes of watching Marin Chilich in a final. Well, I don't know whether you manifested it, but your dreams did come true. You did get to see Marin Chilich in a final and he won that final.
Thus becoming at 777 in the world, the lowest ranked ATP title winner in history, he beat Junjijen 766 to win the title in Huangzhou. Dreams do come true. It was so lovely to see Marin Chilich happy. I'm sure he spent lots of his last two years happy privately when he wasn't trying to come back from being a tennis player. I haven't seen him for 20 months because he hasn't been on a tennis court.
I don't know if you've seen him socially and it's not like the paparazzi hanging out outside his apartment to get me new pictures of Marin Chilich. This was the first time I've seen him in a long time and I really loved it. I actually quite enjoy watching Marin Chilich play anyway, but I really thought he was finished.
I didn't think he'd get through this latest injury. 20 months is a long time, isn't it? To come out and be able to play at this level, I know it's a few weeks in the making, it's not been instant. To be a player like Junjijen like that, that's pretty impressive. Then he came out and he played Nishikori this week. That was excellent. But yeah, he just seemed so thrilled to be back and winning a title. That was quite a good tennis match, Chilich Nishikori.
I tuned in for the lulls and I ended up watching it just for genuine tennis enjoyment. So more for me. A Chinese finalist in Huangzhou and a Chinese champion in Chengdu, Jerry Shang, becoming the first Chinese player to win an ATP title on home soil. He beat Lorenzo Mazzetti 7661. I'd still call that a good week for Mazzetti, reaching a hard court final. But clearly an even better week for the very talented Jerry Shang.
He's got a bit of a final problem, Mazzetti at the moment. He's reached a lot of finals this year on one level or another and he keeps losing them. But I agree with you. I think it is another sign of kind of the strides he's making. Even though it was the top seed, Mazzetti top seed on a hard court, really have backed him in the past and sort of even get to the final.
But the fact that he did was a sign that he is playing a lot better. But he was outclassed in this final. Shang probably should have won the first set before even needing a tie break. He served for it and then got broken back. But then did win that tie break and absolutely ran through the second set. And you only drop one set in the entire tournament. Did Shang and beat lots of different types of player as well.
And as you said, the tennis that Nesha Kory has been playing in these past couple of weeks has been fantastic. He was so good in Tokyo. And Shang beat him in Chengdu. He also beat Bublick who he's played quite a bit this year. He's I think the second youngest in the top 100s. He very nearly beat Casper Rude at the US Open before sort of fading physically. But I think he's coming, Jerry Shang.
He's quite slight. And I can imagine that jump from sort of the juniors to the pros might like it's obviously going well. He's young. He's 19. It's not been a really hard transition for him. But I can imagine that when he's playing these pros week and week out, he might have kind of felt that slightness, I suppose.
As he continues to develop physically, I think he's got the game and he's got the smarts. And I just think he's going to be a bit of a star. Like he's got charisma. I think I think the ATP really like him. They really use him in a lot of their social media content and videos and great for him to have a moment in his in his home country.
He's very much sort of on the radar, I think for next year to what is he now around about 50 in the world. I think he's going to be looking to try and get inside the top 20, I would have thought next year. Kenishikori went on to Tokyo, as you said, and there was a moment after beaten Marantillich and back that up with a win over Jordan Thompson that I got really into the Kenishikori comes back wins his home tournament narrative.
But by the time I got into it, it was it was all but over ended up losing out to Holger Runa in the quarter finals who I've just watched out and watched David. And I'm sure you have as well lose out to Art of Feast who now finds himself in the final to play fellow Frenchman Hugo and bear 7676 for feasts over Runa having beaten Ben Shelton yesterday in an extraordinary match.
On the basis of what I just saw at the end of that Runa match though, I am backing and bear in this final because he looks physically absolutely shot. But whatever happens in that final and we'll cover it on Thursday show, this feels like a big week fear man. And listen, he did look pretty shot yesterday against Ben Shelton at the end and came back. I think this was cramped by the looks of what I saw at the end of that really long tie break set against Holger Runa.
It has been a long week for feasts. It's one of those where I think it's it's a little misleading that he's in the final and he's beaten Taylor Fritz, Mattea Baratini, Ben Shelton, Holger Runa. It's a fantastic cast list, isn't it, of players to beat to reach a reach a final. But you also have to consider the circumstances Taylor Fritz in his first match off the Lava Cup, literally a day or two later. I think that that probably has played a factor.
Mattea Baratini actually won the first set against him and then had to retire due to injury. Although I did feel like feasts should have won that set. I've watched all of these matches obviously. And Shelton could have beaten him as well, even though I don't think that that would have been right if he had. I think feasts was the better player. He had 19 break points to just three of Shelton's.
So it was really close in the end tie breaking the third, but he was the better. This is the best I've seen feasts play. Obviously won the Hamburg tournament. That was a big deal. But the first half seen him on a hard court, where his game just isn't breaking down. There isn't any of the rally shots going into the net or long in quite the same way as there was certainly in the first part of the year.
He's not missing return after return the way he was for the first three months of the year. There's been adjustments made technically. I'm not equipped well enough to know exactly what they are, but he works with Sebastian Groeschal. And you can just see that the game isn't breaking down and he looks solid and you add that to the natural athleticism. I mean, he's got to be one of the most explosive athletic specimens in tennis.
And he's also just got that hootspour as well. You know, he just wants to come and have it with you. And him and Shelton, you could tell just have a real buzz about playing against each other. So now I think this is massive, but Umbair is beating him comfortably in the past when they've played. So I would imagine Umbair is the favorite. And this is an occasion for me to roll out one of my very favorite stats, which is that Umbair has never lost an ATP final. He's six from six.
And no one is ever won there for seven. The other two players to have won there for six. I remember this stat from earlier in the year when Umbair won his sixth final. The other two players are Martin Cleeshan and Ernest Goulbis. It's not a list of all-time greats. But Umbair is looking to become the first guy to win their first seven ATP finals.
And I watched him today beat the best player in the world in three sets. And he has an ability Umbair to suddenly lift his level and start hitting so cleanly, especially down the line. He makes it seem really easy, but he can reel off winners in a seemingly effortless way. His timing is so impressive on the ball. But he's got this weird thing going on Umbair. Maybe it's not that weird. Maybe it's quite telling about him as a player.
He's playing his best tennis at the least important times in the season. He is very good in that February March period, where one must say in Dubai earlier this year. And last year in this September October and November period, he won Metz. Now he's in the final of Tokyo. He kind of disappears over the summer, like the most important time.
He did well at Wimbledon this year. He got to the fourth round and pushed Al Carras. That was a good performance. But he's got to start playing his best tennis at the most important tournaments, because his top level is really good.
But, you know, Grand Sam Summer season, he's sort of nowhere to be seen. But, you know, it's September October tennis again. And here he is, lighting it up. And yeah, like I think he's probably got the physical edge over Fees in this final. But I'm looking forward to it. So kind of in many, certainly recently finals between two French players. So that would be interesting. Yeah, for sure. Staying with the men over in Beijing, they are at the semi final stage.
It's been played today. The last one is still on court. It looks like Bu One Shao Kete is going to beat Andre Rublevin, set up a semi final with Janik Sena, the other semi. Daniel Mevvedev, who beat Flavio Caboli to take on Carlos Al Carras, who's just cruised through the draw this week and look so refreshed David. Yeah, I can't remember the last time I saw Carlos Al Carras look this fresh and loose. And I include his two Grand Sam titles this season in that.
Yeah, it's interesting. Isn't it trying to work out what is the recipe for being fresh and loose, particularly, I mean, the ATP put together that really great video of jet lag effects and everybody looking exhausted. And at the end of Carlos Al Carras looking like he's just having the best time and he's got loads of energy. It was really well put together. But why is it? Why did he hit the wall at certain stages in the last season at the end of last season?
I know he was injured as well, but he looked exhausted at the end of last season. Obviously hit the wall and was poor at the US Open. And he's suddenly got energy again. Who knows, you know, how these things work when you feel good and when you don't. But goodness me, when he does feel good, you can tell. You can just see it coming out of every poor in his body language. And when he's like that, he's unstoppable. I think. I mean, I just can't get enough of watching it.
Between him and Karolina Moukawa, you know, just players that I would just turn on to watch them perform. Simplas, you know, don't care who they're playing. And yeah, long way that continue really. I mean, I know obviously because we want to see Al Carras against the other best players in the world. And I want to see him play Yannick Sinner. And yet I still have this slight uneasy feeling now because suddenly this case is really it's had again.
Very small thing on Al Carras. I didn't watch his I didn't see his match today against action of but the other ones in Beijing. He hasn't had the strapping on his upper, upper thigh, which I mean, certainly all through the summer. He's had that as you say, Catherine, even when he's been winning grand Sam titles. He's been he's been playing with that on his on his leg. And yeah, like just just another sign.
I think that he's that he's free or loose or fresher fitter and yeah, as you say that's that's bad news for everyone else because when Al Carras is in that mood, I mean, yeah, how how do you stop him? And it's still the first, doesn't it? We've never seen him play well at this time of the season before. We're still seeing first from Carlos Al Carras extraordinary.
The reason presumably Matt that you weren't watching Al Carras against Hashanov is because you were watching Amanda and a Simover continue to make Dorek as a keener her pigeon. That's that's 10 sets played 10 sets one by Amanda and a Simover against Dorek as a keener. She is through to the round of 16 in the women's where she'll face Junqin when so the the men are at the semifinal stage.
The women are at the round of 16 stage with still another week to go in Beijing. Of course, for the women, it's a 1000 event for the men. It's just a 500 quote from Matt. I'm fed up of saying Junqin when beat my faves. It's just happened a lot this summer. What can I say? Well, yeah, because it's the US Open rematch, isn't it? From the from the first round, the Nissimover was a cruising against Junqin when upper set 6-1.
What could have been Adonisimover managed to close that match? But I think we've talked a lot privately this week about the vibes in Beijing kind of missing. You've got this enormous stadium there. It's vast and yet it's pretty empty for most of these matches, apart from the Junqin when matches. They are showing up for her and filling it. It's an incredible sight to see that much support for her.
I can imagine that she'd be much better equipped now at the station her career to embrace that support. I think having one the gold medal, I think she really has grown in stature on the court. I think it is kind of boosting her that support and I think that's going to be a lot for Nissimover to have to deal with. I think that matches in a couple of days time. But yeah, there's some really good last 16 matches set up in Beijing.
Yeah, she is not the only Chinese woman still in the draw in Beijing. In fact, she's not even for my money, the headline Chinese woman left in the draw in Beijing. The sentiment is into the Beijing round of 16 to face Magdalena Frec later on today after losing 24 matches in a row. She scored her first singles victory in 603 days, beating McCartney Kessler 7661.
She went on to be Emma Navarro and grit Minnan all in straight sets. I feel like this is a period that should be studied for sports, science, PhDs. The art of the unknowable mistress that is confidence, amamentum, encapsulated in one human being that is Zheng Shui. I watched that match through Griteteeth against McCartney Kessler just because I think I floated the idea during the soap.
She might never end this run. She might have to retire and not be able to end it on tall level because she's going to lose her ranking eventually and all this sort of thing. Suddenly she's in this big tournament. She's got the wild card. She managed to get over the line and you should have seen her body language when she did it because suddenly she couldn't stop talking in the uncalled interview and she took the mic and did her own thing.
It was just wonderful. I didn't bother watching the next one because she's already broken the streak and she's destroyed Emma Navarro 6462. She didn't become a bad player. She's always been a good player. A great backhand. Good watch. Now she's suddenly unencumbered by all this stress and it's happening. It's on his soap. It's just tennis, isn't it? She spoke about how everyone in the locker room was so pleased for her when she got back in there. They were greeting her.
I actually had a look at what Vincent Spadia did after he broke his 21 match losing streak. I thought maybe he then went on an incredible run. He did not. He lost his very next match on grass to Albert Portas who was the drop shot dragon. Am I right David? Correct. I named him that. I don't know how you know. Greg looked very good. And then not long after that, Vincent Spadia went on an 8 match losing streak.
I wonder how far into that did he start thinking, oh not again. Probably three, I reckon. Yeah. But hoping that doesn't happen. So basically there was there was like a sort of two and a half year period where Vincent Spadia only beat Greg Risesley. That's the size of it. Paul? Yeah Paul, we can't be Tesla. The Greg Risesley comparisons. It's not what you want. Staying with the women's in Beijing, Coco Gough and Nomeo Sarka is happening. Finally, we see them on a collision course in a draw.
It's ended up coming off both of them playing with new coaches, Nomeo Sarka, of course, with Patrick Moratogli in tow and Coco Gough with somebody who I didn't really know Matt daily has joined her coaching team. She says I'm really excited. These quotes given to the WTA insider. I think this is probably what it will look like next year too. I'm super excited for a new change and hopefully to improve other parts of my game.
I think it's just time to do a reset or a fresh and add things in my game that I felt like I need to do to have a better season next year. I understand that he has a particular focus on grip changes. Those are reports that I've read and people speculating that she's already made some minor adjustments. She's played really well and watched her beat Katie Bolte yesterday. I know Bolte's beaten her once before but I do think that's a good match up for Coco Gough provided she's playing well.
She can just make Bolte have to win the point over and over and over again to the point where it kind of malfunctions. I've been impressed with her this week and Nomiya Sarka is she's playing with conviction isn't she? She's stepping into the court and just beesting the tennis ball and kind of bullying opponents in the way that she used to in her heyday. Now it's early stages for both of them and it could just be new manager bounds but I am excited for this match David.
Oh absolutely. I think that they showed signs I mean it's four or five years ago now isn't it? They showed signs of what a good rivalry they could have.
Probably at the stage of the career that Sarka's out I don't know how long she wants to play for but there's still plenty of time and this is what could be the first instalments of many and it is interesting seeing players who've already scaled the mountain and for differing reasons in their two cases are having to rebuild and come back and now clash again and it's going to be very interesting.
I think the most significant thing for Sarka this week was her win over Putin Saver. It was the first time she'd won a match from a set down since March of 2022.
Now no she's obviously had a baby and been inactive in that time but still it was 22 losses in a row from a set down and I've watched a lot of Sarka matches this year and yeah as soon as she's lost that first set there have been examples of you know the shoulders slumping a little bit or the game getting a bit ragged and it feeling over and she dug in extremely well in this match which was impressive.
I think it's only the second time all season that she's managed to win three matches in a row and honestly this is kind of what I expected you know I thought anyway like a Sarka would have a chance to build during the swing where she was going to be extremely motivated at a time of year where maybe people are a little bit jaded on hard courts you know like it was all set up for her to maybe try and make some progress during this time of year and then she brings in the new coach and we've seen more of her in the game.
We've seen more of a talk to you have an immediate impact with players in the past he certainly had it with Simone Hallep he's had it with Olga Runo as well I think we're maybe a little bit more right about the long term implications of that of that partnership but sort of like as an initial jolt I thought it probably would bring some results and obviously you know a Sarka's the one doing the work on the court and and as played extremely impressively
and I really don't know which way that match is going to go because their matches in the past have been kind of one sided for eat like for both players they both had one sided wins against each other I think if golf if golf is I think golf just needed to change didn't she just she just needed a break and it's not been enough time even if she has made some small grip change
it's not there enough time to overhaul her entire game like those vulnerabilities are still going to be there but I think if she's back in her right proper mindset of being able to just come through matches and compete so incredibly well then you'd probably just give her the age but when a Sarka's playing as well as she can matches feel like they're on her racket as well so yeah like can't wait to watch it
we've been denied it haven't we we've been so close to that match so many times we really have yeah it's it's been owed by tennis so thank you tennis gods the Beijing WTA event went to finish by the time we come back on Thursday but that match will have happened so we'll talk about that everything else that's happened in the Beijing WTA event and the men's events in Beijing in Tokyo which will have finished by that point so we can't wait to see what happens
by that point so we'll be back on Thursday before then we have have our rescheduled live show for friends this Wednesday night we had to postpone last week due to illness Matt is now back to full fitness I'm looking it is refreshed face now and can confirm we're already
in rarering to go for Wednesday night it is a Q&A show with with questions from the barge about coaching which feels extremely pertinent just now we've had some brilliant questions in and minus boiler alert here David has been dialing a damn so that's going to be a great show and a delgado
a Dan and a delgado and I'm sure there'll be some some Pam as well so people have been dialed and some of them rhyme with Dan so if you'd like to join us for that show either live or as a podcast then become a friend if you aren't already and as I say the link to do that is in our show notes
we have a mascot for this episode and frankly everything up and to this point has just been padding for me to get to arrow I've already sent a picture of arrow to my mom this morning when I was going through the agenda arrow is honestly ridiculous probably and billy genius within
the short probably one of the most beautiful dogs I've ever seen Elizabeth is arrows owner and Elizabeth writes arrow is my sister all note so Elizabeth is an arrow is my sister and dog aka my new niece arrow was adopted in 2023
and is named after one of Anne's favorite Harry Nielsen songs arrow likes hiking wrestling with other dogs eating butter of her Grammy's kitchen table and napping on the coldest butter and tile she can find she doesn't know much about the rules of tennis but enjoys the balls immensely
now Elizabeth doesn't tell us what breed arrow is I think that's an Australian Shepherd but I will put a picture of arrow on our Instagram and I invite your feedback on that and Elizabeth please let us know I feel quite confident that's an Australian Shepherd but I'm so dazzled by his beauty that I could be wrong
he's looking he's staring into my soul I'm losing concentration so thank you Elizabeth and thank you arrow hello to our mascots the dearly departed Darwin Francis and Hider and Soma hello to Billy Jean King and a Lana class who of course are sponsors of Billy Jean canine hello to our top folks and executive producers Chris Greg Jamie and Jeff and Matt we have some shout outs
we have Deborah Bloom hello Deborah hello Deborah like Gillard Bloom yes yes a player that we were both on the Champions tour with briefly yes I knew Gillard Bloom because there was a Champions tour event in São Paulo that was held at a tennis club in the Jewish quarter of São Paulo and the organizers of the tennis club wanted a Jewish player to compete and Gillard Bloom was available
and I played football against Gillard in the Maradona match which I believe and I've just checked this by looking above my TV where the two teams are intermingled and there is Thomas Muster there is Goran even is of it there is Diego Maradona Davos Chouca Gillard Bloom and me and Boris Becker's referee
so it's between you and Gillard Bloom for least famous I will take a photo of the photo for you how about that what do we know about Deborah Deborah is from Indiana oh and she's on the bottom Indiana I think the capital of Indiana is Springfield no Springfield Illinois capital of Indiana
what else do we know Indiana well Deborah is from a place called Goshen Goshen not quite sure how to pronounce that Deborah Javans the chair of the Ordingland tennis club very good very good Indianapolis of course is the capital of Indiana I was going to say that and I thought it's not too obvious
sorry Deborah thank you I enjoyed that shout out very much we've also got James Lynn who is from Rye New York James hello James presumably New York State rather than New York City yeah James would like to dedicate his shout out to his 95 year old great uncle Ken Yang who helped raise him and introduced him to tennis oh that's magnificent hello Ken like Ken Rosewell would a brilliant tennis name would brilliant sort of elder statesman of tennis name Ken is that is lovely James
hello to you and hello to Ken and and James says he appreciates the podcast because we're sports podcasters who do not yell and scream at each other maybe we should start well that's what our mate Dave wants us to do more of isn't it yeah well certainly disagree but maybe not yet and yeah no not sure we'll have we're too we're not yet and we're conflict avoidant bridge James that's not really our vibe thank you James and finally we have Andy Brown in Orpinton London but grew up in Reading
is Andy a Reading fan is he in the depths of despair and he says Catherine will sympathise as I'm a long standing Reading fan you got a winner the weekend isn't you yeah we did yeah doesn't mean much if you see to exist but yeah and Andy like Andy Murray and Andy Rolick so it's all coming up Andy and Andy Carroll briefly played for Reading now playing somewhere in France I think and he carol when he played for Reading scored I think the best goal to ever be disallowed
it was against full of them oh yes I agree you know that Andy Carre is still thinking about that every night it's like he's still playing he's trying to one up it look he was he was a good man for us he played he played for not very much to I mean you know for selfish reasons but he you know he did us a favour in a dark time and we are still in that dark time and he you have my deepest sympathies and yeah we're in this together so thank you very much thank you to all of our shout out friends
our intro friends our friends are the tennis podcast we will see lots of you on Wednesday I hope 8pm UK time will be live on YouTube with that coaching show it'll also be available as a podcast for all friends of the pod to listen to we'll be back with a second main show this week
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