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Hi, this is Billie Jean King. This is Mary Ann Bautori. This is Bianca and Drasco. I'm Matt Svillander. This is Mary Carrillo. This is Pam Shriver. This is Janic Noah and you're listening to the tennis podcast. Hello and welcome to the tennis podcast on a drizzly Monday morning in London and Solihull respectively. I'm Catherine Rittaker. David Law is here. Matt Roberts is here. We've had what five days now of watching the great and good of tennis post every five days.
Post every photo they own of themselves with Rafal Nadal. David, I can't believe you resisted. I do have one of me interviewing him back in 2006. Shortly ahead of his first ever appearance at Queens Club where I was a media director at the time and I did an interview with him for something known as the Stella R2R tennis podcast, which we just launched in which you have to sync up your recording to an iPod and download it if you wanted to listen to it.
But anyway, I got to interview Rafal Nadal for that. Yes, I have that picture and I'm not intending to show it to anybody. Matt, you're good on Twitter. I'm sure you could have come up with an irreverent caption for a photo of yourself with Nadal. The caption might not have been the issue. There's a big lack of lack of photo available. That's a pretty, pretty big guess for the Stella R2R podcast, David.
Yeah, well, he was the big new signing of the tournament. So we kind of had it in his contract that he'd got to do stuff. There must be lots of photos, David, of the on-court ceremony in 2008 when Nadal won Queens and you would have been on the court. No? We'd be on the lawn. You could have done a whole photo album of yourself with Nadal. I could have done it. Funny enough, I chose not to.
Those exist. Those are out there. Yes, five days of looking at an Adal free world or certainly contemplating an Adal free world. We have the Davis Cup finals to come. And the Saudi Kings this week. Never forget the Saudi Kings. We are going to be looking back on Shanghai and on Wuhan, where our Champions are Yannick Sinner and Arena Savilenka, two players whose fates in 2024 are seemingly mystically and weirdly tethered Matt.
Yes, the fourth time this year that I feel like we've sort of done this podcast because it's the fourth time this year that Sinner and Savilenka have won the same event. It happened in Australia, happened in Cincinnati, happened at the US Open, and now it's happened, okay, different events, Shanghai and Wuhan, but happening in the same week, the fourth time this year, this year, they've won titles kind of together.
And obviously the sort of common denominator there is hard courts. I think we can... there's probably a debate to be had on both tours right now. Who is the best player in the world? I think, obviously, Yannick Sinner has the ranking this year and is secured to be the year end number one.
And I wouldn't argue with anyone who feels that Yannick Sinner is the best player right now. I think I probably fall on that side as well, but there's just the head-to-head with Alkarez to take in and the fact that Alkarez won two slams as well.
We can definitely say that Yannick Sinner is the best hard court player in the world right now, I think, given all that he's won this year winning 45 of his 48 matches on the surface. And then Savilenka is in a real tussle for the world number one spot with Eagish Viontech.
Again, probably wouldn't argue with anyone who says that Eagish Viontech, given the start to the year she had, deserves to be world number one, but right now it feels to me like Savilenka kind of is the best player in the world and certainly is on a hard court. And yeah, I think it is really notable how they've both taken big elevations in their career this year, Yannick Sinner and Irina Savilenka, and have kind of done it at the same tournaments.
1,000 points picked up of course to Savilenka for winning the title in Wuhan. She's now just 69 behind Viontech in the rankings and 800 in the race. It does feel like it's going to go down to the WTA finals.
That of course will depend on how much either of them play between now and the finals in Riyadh. I get the feeling that the next time we'll see Eagish Viontech will be in Riyadh. It'll be interesting to see if Savilenka tries to overtake Viontech before Riyadh to give herself kind of a head start to make herself in pole position ahead of the finals.
I mean, the number of points on offer at the finals might render that redundant, but she will at least have tasted being back at number one with Shruntek taking this break. It does give her a chance to get back to number one kind of without Shruntek having a say. I don't know, it's going to be very, very interesting to see Savilenka.
When winning the title in Wuhan, beating Junqin, when 6357, 6357 in a fantastic final, Zheng, Zheng, incidentally is up to seventh in the race, which puts her just about in contention for WTA finals qualification spot. It looks like Cray Chicaver, Bob Orico Chicaver, the Wimbledon champion is going to finish outside the world's top 8, but as a Grand Slam champion, she will get in as long as she finishes in the world's top 20.
She's a Grand Slam champion rule that's been reintroduced, I think, on the WTA tour. Zheng currently in a qualification position, and I think the WTA finals would be enriched by her being there, particularly on the basis of this final, which was David A Corker. 6357, 632 Savilenka, and nip and talk all the way, it felt like to me.
It felt like the time to come down to the psychological and mental aspects of a rivalry. With these two, it felt in all their previous matches as Zheng can't handle the pace of Savilenka shots, and she seems so late on the ball a lot of the time. She's going to have time to get set herself in order to inflict the damage she does on everybody else. Now, a big part of that is whether she can make her serve work.
What she learned in this match is that she can adapt a little bit, and maybe Savilenka wasn't quite as good in this match as she was in those other two matches earlier this year, in the Australian Open, in the US Open, where she just completely flattened her. Maybe that's an element of it, or maybe it's actually that Zheng started serve better and to get a feel for the game and not maybe panic some action.
Maybe you just sometimes have to adjust and not think that you can go and dominate and opponent. Maybe you've got to dig in, and there was some incredible long rallies. There was one real contender for Raleigh of the year, I think, at one point that Zheng managed to win just several incredible gets and lobs and an extending of the rally and turning the tables.
But it was still in the end, Savilenka, who came out on top, and to come out on top against Zheng in China means that you've got to contend with such a difficult crowd. Kind of cocoa goff at the US Open final-esque crowd in terms of one-sidedness. That's not to say Savilenka isn't popular when she goes around the world. I think people do like her, but she's not playing anywhere where there's a part as uncrowed in her favour.
She's often on the end of this sort of situation, and it is quite comical in China just how pro Zheng they are and how silent it was when Savilenka hit winner. It's funny to listen to the contrast, but it was a good atmosphere. I thought Savilenka did incredibly well to deal with the circumstances.
But I was also encouraged on the part of those of us that are looking for competitiveness that Zheng managed to make competitive, because I think at the start of the match, how might have thought it would just be another very one-sided match? Not to relicate old cases, but this was the match that I was expecting them to have at the US Open.
It was totally not this match. It was totally not competitive at all. At the time we speculated heavily about how much that was down to the fact that Zheng had had that 230 in the morning finish. After the Donovicic match, a couple of nights before and how ruined she was by that. This match for me yesterday was further evidence of that. There must have been something else at play at the US Open, because these are the sort of matches that I would expect these two to have from now on.
I would still be back in Savilenka to win them. She's got a heavy edge, not an edge, she dominates the head to head. But I would expect them to get closer and closer, and I would expect them to look a lot more like the match we got in Wuhan yesterday. I agree. I think it was quite important that Zheng get closer to Savilenka this time round, because there had been some extenuating circumstances for their previous two matches this year.
Obviously the first one was the Australian Open final, and we know it's hard to play your very best tennis in your first Grand Slam final. I think everyone understood that Zheng Xin went played pretty well in that final, but wasn't that her best and lost to a better, more experienced player. Then there was the US Open one, which as you say was heavily compromised by Zheng's late finish.
Finally it felt like, OK, we're in China, this is a match where you need to show up, and she really did. Certainly in the latter half of the match, I thought the first half, I thought Savilenka was pretty dominant, and there weren't that many close games. It just seemed like Savilenka was in charge, but then Zheng really dug in, and she's got an incredible record this year of winning final sets.
She didn't end up winning this final set, but it does paint a picture of someone who's prepared to grind and go through some tough phases in matches and come through them. She did that brilliantly, and the latter half of this match was the two of them going toe-to-toe really. I think I was also extremely impressed by Savilenka, because I think that's a match that a couple of years ago, it's the kind of match she wouldn't have won.
The way she was able to reset when things started going against her, the way that as David spoke about, the crowd was on top of her, and it was emotional, and she was getting pretty stressed and pretty bothered by it, and yet, OK, it did affect her tennis, but then she got it back together again and kept playing. It was also a match where we saw a bit more of that variety, and not a huge amount, but just enough to sprinkle into her game now that she can fall back on it a bit more.
Little drop shots or little forays to the net. She's coming up with these all the time, and it's the third time she's won Wuhan. She's won 17 matches in a row there, but spread over very many years, because Wuhan wasn't on the tour for so long. But she was talking about how the conditions were different. It wasn't a sort of Wuhan-Buldon-esque week there. It wasn't as quick.
It was much slower, heavier conditions, and I think in those conditions, she had to use some of those other aspects of her game. She couldn't just simply blast winners with her power. So it was all just a demonstration, I think, of how much Jung has improved over this year since the start of the year. She's able to hurt Savalenko more, and she's able to soak up more of Savalenko's power a little bit. But also a measure of how much Savalenko has improved over the last year or so, even.
She used to, kind of when she used to win Wuhan, she didn't have the slam results, and she had the tour results. At the start of this year, she had the slam results, but not the tour results, and now she's got it all. And that feels like one of the big developments that Savalenko has made.
I was imagining in a hundred years' time a futuristic iteration of Matt Roberts sitting in the Wimbledon Library, seeing the Savalenko three-peaked stat, three titles back to back in Wuhan, but with a mysterious five-year gap in the middle. What could account for that five-year gap in sort of mind being blown in an excellent newsletter stat being born?
Just on Junqin Wen, it wasn't the warmest handshake, was it? I know the camera cut away from it, but subsequently footage has emerged of a pretty cool handshake. And something that Junqin Wen is getting quite used to. There was a pretty frosty handshake, Jin-Hur and Layla Fernandez earlier in the week.
She had been in Incident where Junqin Wen had gone directly to Layla Fernandez's box, who were down her end of the court at the time, and told them to quiet and down, because they were being distracted, and Fernandez noticed that happening and wasn't happy about it at all.
The umpire said, look, if you've got an issue, you come directly to me. I thought the umpire handled it really well, actually. She didn't make a big deal of it, but she was like, you know, just come to me in future, but Fernandez was really put off by it. It does feel like an increasing kind of negative feeling on the WTA tour from fellow players towards Junqin Wen, and I certainly see evidence of her being a Sharapova type player who is not there to make friends.
She doesn't mind rubbing people up the wrong way, and I certainly get the feeling that she doesn't mind too much about their people having their anti-feelings towards her. But I'm still yet to see any receipts that justify sort of the level of negativity that I am sensing towards her. It feels a little bit bullying. Now maybe there is stuff that we don't know about, and well, I'm sure there's stuff that we don't know about.
But I don't know. It's starting to feel a bit uncomfortable to me, David. Yeah, I feel very pro Junqin all of this, and I think there are some things that if I were on the other side of, I probably would get irritated by as well. But I'm not on the other side of it, and I'm enjoying it immensely. The fact that it's not just this cozy, isn't everybody lovely on the tour, and aren't we all getting on un famously, and oh, look, you seem to be beating me all the time.
She is losing to Sabalanka, but she's not just letting it go unchecked. She's being herself. Whatever that is, she's being it. And I think she's great. I really like her presence on a tennis court, and yeah, she is a bit owned in the joint and look at me, and I just think, why not? This is what I want out of the superstars of the sport to just be themselves and be out there and own the stage a little bit. People don't like women being like that, they do.
Well, I do. I certainly like that the way she is. But I do think women that are prepared to take up space and sort of know their value is. It does rub people up the wrong way. There have been many now, and I think it was it was Navarro who first really made us think, oh, blind me. You know, that seems a bit extreme to be calling her out in quite that way.
And it sounded like sour grapes to me at the time. Subsequently, there have been others, but I do think that sometimes words spreads in a locker room, and people start nitpicking, and they slightly want somebody to know their place a bit, and they start back. I mean, I don't know that this has happened, but I believe it could have done. It seems a bit of a coincidence that I know it just feels like everybody's got it in for Jun-chim, when to me.
And I think that there's jealousy. I think there's probably jealousy out there. I mean, she's incredibly popular in China, proper mega star. She's beating people of winning gold medal, Olympic gold medal, you know, and I think that that should piss people off. That should wind up players, and so as a lover of a bit of aggro, this is right in the sweet spot as far as I can sense.
And knowing how big the Chinese market is for sponsors, you know, it's not an accident that Federer showed up in Shanghai this week, is it? I mean, he's got some sponsors that would be very keen on his presence in Shanghai. I suspect that Jun-chim-chim has some pretty enormous sponsorship deals that might also lead to some jealousy, you know, sponsorship deals that outrank her ranking. And I suspect there's some some complexes about that out there. Again, I don't know.
And maybe she's dreadful. But I'm yet to see any evidence. And I think if you're going to be this anti, I think you've got to bring the receipts. And I'm yet to see any other than she's not afraid to rob people up the wrong way a bit. And I agree with David, I don't mind it. Don't forget the huge crime of hitting winners in the warm-up. Yes, whenever we ask around for the receipts, we hear she hits winners in the warm-up.
Which for me is just adding weight to the cause of bringing down the fast that is the tennis warm-up. And I support her in that. Do you know how we've all started calling it the warm-up and not the knock-up? So we don't bamboos or Americans. I also don't mind what Sabolenka's doing about it. I going and winning anyway and then shaking hands a little bit coldly. I'm all right with that.
Yeah, same. Yeah, same. I'm here for all of it. We should probably chat a bit about the semifinals. Well, one semifinal in particular. The Sabolenka Gough semifinal. Truly, well, bamboozling again, given it's on the top of my mind. One six, six four, six four to Sabolenka over Coco Gough, who of course was coming in off the back of that win in Beijing. She was five love up in the opening set. She took the opening set, six one. She was all over this match. And then it totally fell apart.
I'm at 21 double faults from Coco Gough. She in a crowded field is my number one most inexplicable tennis player at the moment. She's won Beijing. And at 1,000 events, she's got this new coat. She's got the new manager bounce. She's looking... Not impervious because Coco Gough at her best still has weaknesses. But God, she was a mess. She got herself into the best possible position against the de facto best player in the world at the moment. And it could not have fallen apart more drastically.
More inexplicable than Marquette of Androsiava. Wow. She's my bar for inexplicable. I don't know. Is it that inexplicable or has she just got a massive issue with the serve? That issue itself might be a little bit inexplicable. I think there is a technique issue. I think there's also probably a mental issue.
I would drill down and say that the serve, that one shot cost Coco Gough this match. Because everything else was as good as I had ever seen from Coco Gough. I really don't want to exaggerate. But the first half of this match, certainly the first set and the opening stage of the second set as well, was as good as I've ever seen Coco Gough play. The conviction with which she was hitting her shots and the forehand in particular was so notable.
And we've seen Coco Gough cause Sabelanka problems before. But we've mostly seen her do it with her incredible atheticism and her foot speed and retrieving and getting extra balls back and causing Sabelanka to malfunction a little bit. She was doing those things. She was using her atheticism. But what she was really doing was dominating Sabelanka.
Sabelanka was not able to hit winners because Gough was hitting them. She was hitting winners on returns. She was shortening rallies and just imposing herself on Sabelanka in a way that I've never seen her do before. It was the whole package of tennis. Defense, attack, everything. She had it all going on. I think there were four double faults in that first set.
But you know, it was under control. They weren't at bad times and the rest of her game was so good and she was so dominant. She then hit 17 double faults in the next two sets, as you say. And battled hard to make the third set close from from three love down. She got it level and then was it was nip and tuck in the end. That goes to show how well she was playing. She was close to beating Arena Sabelanka with 21 double faults. That just tells you how good the rest of her game was.
But it's a disaster. What's happening right now with her serve? This was more double faults than she hit against Navarro at the US Open. It's the most she's ever hit in a match. And there's so many different types of double fault. Sometimes she's literally shanking the ball. Sometimes it's going, it's sort of she's decelerating. It's going in the net. Sometimes it's going wide or long. She can miss in any type of way with that serve.
I think what impressed me here was that when she's had these double fault problems before, I've really seen the sort of cause problems for the rest of her game. It's of psychologically so hard to deal with it then feels like every part of her game breaks down.
That wasn't the case in this match. It was just the serve. The rest of her game maintained a really high level throughout. And she said when she started this new partnership with Matt daily that the serve was going to be the big thing that they're working on. And I think I think this was a real reminder that yes, she's playing with a lot more conviction in her game generally and it's taken her to the Beijing title and the semi final here. These are good results really good.
But it's going to take a it's going to take time for the for the serve to be sorted out and the sort of interesting thing here was that she was playing saboteca who has been through serving yips and double faults. Itis if that's a thing herself, you know, but kind of what you hear from from real experts in the game is that.
Sabelink is one of the exceptions in terms of someone who's overcome that extreme level of double faulting to turn it into a real weapon again. Goth's got a lot of work on her hands to to overcome this problem. It's easy to say, oh, it's just a serve sort of serve out and everything will be great.
Everything will be fine. It's a massive problem the one she's got and you know, saboteca obviously saw a biomechanist to help sort it out and you know, you wouldn't say one size fits all when I'm sure that's that's a route that got might might be thinking of going down.
I think it is going to take time. I'm really pleased that the rest of her game is in such a great state at the moment, but this is a major major issue, which is, which is holding her back as I said, I think is literally cost her this match. Yeah, and I agree with all of that, I guess, I guess I just find it inexplicable that a player with that huge a problem in that fundamental part of their game last week, one of WTA 1000 title.
That's what's inexplicable and absolutely incredible about Coco got off. And a player that I remember when Saboteca had to. Right. Well, that makes more sense to me because it is clearly something so fundamental and technical and there is just no time in the sport. How can she possibly have sorted that out in this short a time frame? You know, January is going to be going to be very interesting, isn't it?
But I remember when when when Saboteca had her service yips, we were we were praising her winning matches at all with those yips, weren't we? You know, golf is winning some of the biggest titles in the sport with them is is absolutely mind blowing and totally fascinating. But she's a she's an absolute must watch in tennis at the moment, Coco got off. Right, that is we hand taking care of will be back in pot to with Shanghai.
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Welcome back to part two where we move now to Shanghai, a Yannick sinner beat Novak Djokovic in the final 7663 watched on by Roger Federer and Carlos Alcuras and Juan Carlos Ferreiro who are all sitting in a very tantalizing and very distracted. Very distracting row court side. I say distracting because I found this match a little bit of a snooze quite frankly. It always felt to me like Yannick sinner was going to come out on top. There weren't that many dramatic service games, juice games.
So I just want to start here from from Jose Magado on Twitter. Djokovic has played six sets against Yannick sinner this year and has created zero break points. He's absolutely got the better of that head to head is Yannick sinner at the moment and David it's a head to head where it just feels like to incredibly similar tennis players. Butting up against one another but one of them is just got a level that the other doesn't have now and that is Yannick sinner.
Certainly at the moment and actually it's a sustained period of sample isn't it and I actually think the record sinner has against Djokovic is becoming quite similar to the record he has against Medvedev.
He's four four against Djokovic he's seven seven against Medvedev and yet against Djokovic he's one four the last five and against Medvedev he's one seven of the last eight. And it's it's just like he's he's cracked it he's cracked the code and I don't think it's it's some sort of massive matchup problem for either one of those players.
He's basically doing the same stuff they do he's just better at it now he's younger than Djokovic he's hitting the ball maybe more powerfully more relentlessly I think there are definitely when Djokovic's arm gets loose as we saw in the Olympic finally still got extraordinary speed off of shot and he can hit winners.
He's he's doing to Djokovic what Djokovic has done to everybody else for for a decade and a half or certainly the last 10 years and it's quite jarring to witness it and you you do wonder where Djokovic's wins against him are going to come from because if you if you go back to when the when that this run came together and it was the ATP finals and it was a real squeak for for sinner to get past him there in a final set.
Then he lost comfortably in the in the final and then he suddenly just took over that that rivalry basically at the Davis Cup and followed it up at the Australian open he's done it again here and it's I think you are looking at probably the most explicit example of Djokovic aging as a tennis player right here against Yanik Sinner because of how similar they are.
Whereas with our crash it's again him against either one of them there's a there's a matchup difference he can do stuff that those two don't do and it's whether it's kind of whether our crash is on or not whether it's working all his box of tricks whether it's all coming together or not against Sinner.
It's it's just two very similar styles facing off and who's going to execute better who's going to last the better and the fact that Sinner won the tie break and has taken Djokovic's mantlers this incredible tie break player.
I just think he's he's kind of going through every stage of Djokovic as a tennis player right now now whether that last and obviously there's there's this huge big question mark hanging around him and whether he'll be able to come on playing with the challenge of water or not is another question but in terms of just him as a player and as an athlete he's looking more like peak Djokovic every day.
Yeah that that tie break thing you talk about I found fascinating because I completely agree it was kind of a dull first set I was waiting for there to be some dramas waiting for there to be a tight game and and Sinner went down love 30 serving up for five you know he's any two points there from losing the set and against most players.
Djokovic there is able to to apply pressure and and probably sneak the set but Sinner found his first serve and held and then I was thinking okay well at least we're going to get some some good tie break drama you know the two so tie break kings coming up against each other it was like that moment in in the man city Liverpool game the other year where the ball suddenly fell and it was Harland against Van Dyke these two Titans or or in the full game the other day it was triora against Carl Walker.
Who's faster suddenly it was like who's going to win the tie break out of Sinner and out of Sinner and Djokovic and Sinner's kind of stole the first point with a great with a great backhand pass and Djokovic dumped a backhand volley in the net at a crucial moment and Sinner took the tie break and kind of confirmed that you've got to be playing kind of Alcaraz purple patch level as he did in the Beijing final to win one of these tie breaks against Sinner at the moment.
Otherwise he is going to be right there in in the biggest moment and that always used to be used to be Djokovic's thing and Sinner's got that now and then Sinner hit a brilliant forehand up the line to break in in the second set and that was it the match was done because Djokovic wasn't getting close to Yannick Sinner's serve as you say hasn't had a break point this year.
He's only got to use twice on the Sinner serve all year. Do you he's not even getting into Sinner's service games it's extraordinary how I think that tells you a lot about both players. I think Djokovic he's had a few matches this year where his return has let him down he hasn't created many break points in I think he's created no break points in four matches this year and he hadn't done that since once since 2017.
But it also tells you how good Sinner's service got you know he's he's able to hit his spots and and really back it up so it told you a lot about both players but it does just leave Djokovic in this fascinating spot that he kind of hasn't been in since about I was thinking since about like 2009 where in 2009 he was kind of beating everyone except he wasn't really beating Federer and Nadal that much and now he's in that spot.
But with Alkarez and and Sinner you know his his form since the French open has actually been good he's won 24 of his last 27 matches like it's hard to say that this guy is hugely slumping he's beating most of most of the best players in the world he just beat the US open finalist Taylor Fritz in a match in which he was pretty physically compromised by the end there Djokovic and yet he still won it in straight sets.
But you know he's taken heavy loss to Alkarez in the Wimbledon final he's taken couple of big losses to Sinner this year I kind of think the popper in one that the US open can be explained by you know mentally kind of fried after the Olympics but it's just against those two where he's having problems and still the best performance I've probably seen all year was Djokovic in that Olympics final.
But I don't think he's ever going to be that motivated for anything again in his entire career you know like an extra slam would be great it would be a real bonus but I think an Olympic gold was a need it was it was you know if he hadn't got that he his career wouldn't have been complete and it is complete now and he doesn't have that edge in these matches and he needs that.
He needs that edge to beat Alkarez and Sinner right now and you know so he's he's trying new things isn't it like even just looking at the teams you know you've got Djokovic's former team sitting in Sinner's box right there is kind of a sign of how things have changed as well and Djokovic has got this guy Carlos Gomez Herrera who he who he played doubles with once and is receiving instruction from in Spanish it's kind of like Djokovic's Spanish.
It's got that good that he's able to get on court coaching in Spanish and give it back in Spanish but it just points to a guy at a different stage of his his career right now and the the t shirt for the hundredth title which I'm sure was was there has to has to stay in the bag and whether Djokovic is able to find any kind of motivation that similar to what he had at the Olympics I think is the big.
Question now and also we have to take into the context of Nadal retiring like I genuinely think that has an impact on on Djokovic he gave a great quote this week saying you know part of part of me leaves with them you know talking about Federer and Nadal and Murray all retiring recently and if he doesn't have pay off I think in the first half of next year I think he suddenly is going to feel like he's going to be a little bit more.
He's suddenly is going to feel a bit lonely like out there you know without his biggest rivals he's got these two new younger rivals who this stage he's he's struggling to be. I think I think next year for know that Djokovic is going to be so so interesting and I'm kind of leaning towards you know we might not be seeing no that Djokovic for much beyond next year that's kind of just how it feels to me right now.
Yeah this match gave me a very similar takeaway actually because it made me think about then a dull retirement and how it would impact no that Djokovic and you know a year ago less than a year ago nine months ago maybe even six months ago we we and no that Djokovic were so invigorated by his new intergenerational rivalries by his new rivalries with Yanik Sinat and in particular.
Colossalcras they were feeling the the big three void for us and I think for for know that Djokovic or big four void depending on what period of time you want to look at and those aren't feeling so much like rivalries anymore I'm not saying no that Djokovic will never be sin or Alcras again but their matches feel.
Very heavily in the favor of the younger players pretty much consistently now so I think that leaves a bit of an emptiness for know that Djokovic and yeah I think the whole of the rest of his career however long that is rest now on how much motivation he can manufacture for 25. Because at the moment it doesn't sound to me from how he talks about that Olympic gold and he's still talking about that Olympic gold at every chance every chance he gets.
It doesn't sound to me like 25 is on his mind that much. A 25th Grand Slam it feels like it would be a bonus and I don't think a bonus is going to give no that Djokovic the edge he needs to compete with the youth David what do you think? Yeah I can see all the logic of what you're saying I still feel and could imagine a scenario where he gets defiance from that feeling that it's no longer in his grasp.
You know what I mean I could almost imagine him thinking okay well now I've got my reason it's because I'm being written off again and I'm going to show you all one last time. I could imagine him hitting him getting motivation from that but I think the other factor that has to be considered is his body. I don't think his body is necessarily reliable enough for him to pull that off.
I think that's that's an unknown but the way the way his knee went the French open and the ways had it patched up ever since and he's looked a bit plunky really. The last couple of times we've seen him he's got through and he's managed to win the Olympics but it was best to three you know you have to factor that in he was able to get that edge because he got I'm sure a this huge motivation but also that quite near finish line.
Whereas in the best of five my god it's tough to do that if you can't completely rely on your body and it's asking a lot isn't it to expect that somebody of his age is going to be able to rebuild again.
To carry it out so I do feel that we could see another come back and another sort of moment where he's because he's still got that loose arm when he when he finds his form but I just wondered then I then wouldn't be surprised if another body part gave way because at some point that's surely going to happen surely.
I think that's a really important point actually. Jokovic is more physically depleted than he used to be like and I think the Olympics was a kind of perfect setup and that it was best of three and it was also you know he's able to get those days off between matches at the at the end which was the kind of the crucial stage here.
He's playing those matches consecutively and I think I think there was some hangover from the Fritz semifinal where he really was struggling in those latter stages and then give you lost that second set you might well have lost the match. He then has to come back the next day and play and play sinner and.
Okay he gets the day off at the slams like that is going to be helpful for him but then you've got the five sets which at this stage I think certainly when he comes up against Alcaraz is a it's a big tick in Alcaraz is column when he faces the other five sets.
Sinners five set record is still got to be proved a little bit of you know there's that whole stat of him never having one a match over four hours if it gets really long I think we still got some question marks over over sinner but yeah like I do think I do think the level can still be there for Jokovic you know we did see it at the Olympics when he was that motivated and when it was sort of perfect for him sort of physically.
I think even in this match against sinner I thought he was kind of the better player through the first set he was he was doing the thing that I just said sinner was doing in terms of finding his spots on serve and Jokovic was doing all of that and he can if he can go up the line early against sinner that that really helps him not be caught in a sort of trading relentless ground strokes and he was doing that well he just he just kind of blew the tie break in a way that he never used to do so.
So I do as David said never write the guy off and if anyone can. Can find some reason to get some more motivation or to be defiant it is no about Jokovic but I do think it needs to come sooner rather than later like I if he's not one any of the first half of next year for me if he ends if he goes through Australia Ronan Gauas and Wimulden without you know either beating Al Quaz or sinner in one of those or lifting the title I think I think with within really potentially
the end. Yeah I don't think just continually beating Taylor Fritz which I'm sure he'll be able to do on his deathbed I don't think that's going to keep him going. I remember the top 10 that's never beaten no matter Jokovic I never want to see that match again it's my new it's my new Nishikori and a grand slam for the final. And also the day that you do get Taylor Fritz beating him I just think also could be a bit sad because that really he'll retire on the spot.
I mean I listen to fritz is is maxing out his career he's doing bloody well but he's just not at that level is he's not quite he can't beat the guy and I just feel like if he does beat him it's probably because no Vatcho which isn't isn't what he was. Yeah agreed yeah it's it's hard to see isn't it anyway tough seem for Taylor Fritz I'm sorry look he's a grand slam finalist exactly as you said David he's maxing out with a lot of respect for him never
want to see him play no Vatcho Fritz. Okay on that note let's wrap up part two still some bits and bobs to be addressed on the news front in part three attention parents and grandparents are you searching for the perfect gift for your kids this holiday season give the gift of
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get free shipping and a free bike lock and pump with your first purchase after signing up with their newsletter visit guardian bikes dot com to take advantage of these deals and secure your holiday season gifts today happy riding hey I'm Ryan Reynolds recently I asked Mintmobile's legal team if big wireless companies are allowed to raise prices due to inflation they said yes and then when I asked if raising prices technically violates those owners to your contracts they said what the
what the f*** are you talking about you insane hollywood so to recap we're cutting the price of mint unlimited from thirty dollars a month to just fifteen dollars a month give it a try at mintmobile dot com slash switch forty five dollars up from payment equivalent to fifteen dollars
for month new customers on first three month plan only taxes and fees extra speeds lower about forty gigabyte cd sales welcome back to part three of the tennis podcast where we've discussed wins in Shanghai and Wuhan
for yannick's center and arena saboteca respectively those two finals took place at the same time the semi finals in Wuhan and Shanghai took place at the same time what the f*** are we doing that's quite well put yeah because that was our reaction when we saw that scheduling you know you clear
your morning here UK time because great the tennis is on and then you realize I've earth at the same time I mean I I understand Wuhan and Shanghai are different cities with different markets and they've got their own personal needs and all the rest of it but if this isn't
lying in the sand that has tennis supposedly at a point where the ATP and the WTA are talking about merging commercially if this isn't the point at which they go that can never happen again nor any situation like it then I don't know what is because it's the it's just totally the sport shooting itself in the foot there's you're just ruining your own spectacle sabotaging yourself and I just find that really sad and also the way the way
it works with the men's finals started first it just meant that the women's final just wouldn't have had any eyeballs on it by comparison and I think that that's just just not on and I mean there's got to be a solution you know in the UK where where sky are the other rights holders and and may may very clear their dissatisfaction with with the situation you know that they don't they don't want that either but they went with the men's
final on the main channel presumably because it started first but you know yes the the women's final was available on their on their digital and streaming service but the people that are going out of their way to seek out the women's final whether it's to choose it over the men's final or to auto multi screen in the case of nerds like us those are people that you know women's tennis has already got those fans these these are the die hard you're losing all of the potential new fans
you're losing all of the casuals you're looking you're losing all of the people that just like a bit of sport on a Sunday morning scroll through to see what's on and go oh this is this is good because it was it was great you're losing all of those potential eyeballs all of that growth potential and the whole time I was just thinking about that 80 20 split that quote reflects commercial realities you know with this potential merger we talked about it on now on our emergency
podcast last week that mostly focused on the dog but also covered off these these news stories one of which was was broken by Simon the telegraph last week about this proposed commercial merger between the ATP and the WTA where current assets are valued at 80%
to the ATP and 20% to the WTA which is a reflection of their current relative revenues well of bloody course of course those are their relative revenues if you know if this is what's happening because I guarantee that as we know we have enough evidence to show that when push cuffs comes to shove it is the the women that get shoved and there are there are always reasons for it like I realize that hands of being tied here by tennis broadcasters shouldn't be put in this situation but you know
patriarchy is it's self-assistating you know it's unless you unless you draw a line in the sand to say these matches have to be treated equally that is our starting point that is our red line let's work from here then I just fear that the women will always be the ones that get shoved
and it is just really really depressing really depressing yeah and it happens throughout the season you know like this is not a it's not an isolated case you know very often we get finals clashing and semi finals clashing and it's so infuriating as a viewer you know you if you're like us you can you can find a way to watch both but you don't really you know you're not watching either as fully as you would like to because you're having to keep an eye on
on the other one and as you say there's just a a whole way of people who who weren't have seen you know here in the UK they simply weren't have seen the first hour or more even hour and a half of of of sabotein cajun because they'd have been watching watching
jocke of xsinna and they they shouldn't have had to make a choice they should have been able to watch both at different times and you know that would be a huge huge starting point for the wta and the ATP are lining more you know to to have and even ATP finals sometimes clash with each other you know wta finals clash with each other like the tournaments generally god to be talking to each other a bit more to have to have you know less overlap between the biggest matches in the sport
and I get that there's you know in a week like this where we've suddenly got like five tournaments like of course there's going to be some overlap between them on on finals sunday but this was a week where we only had two and they're in the same time zone you know they could have
started one two hours after the other and then we would have we would have been able to watch them both pretty much in their in their entirety and it's just so infuriating how often this happened yeah as you said a lot of events this week I would bet my life that these finals are going to overlap at least some of them the ATP are in almatte stockholm and Antwerp all of them two these Tiafau best player in the world Thomas Mahatch Alejandro Tobilo and Karen Hashanov in almatte
which seems a good moment Matt free of us to give you the chance to talk about Mahatch's victory over Carlos Alcarez he was so good he is the best player in the world when he when he when he shows up like that I mean the way he was hitting his forehand in Shanghai was what really stood out to me that's that's often his his weak shot you know it's the one that he's got a bit of a funky technique on it can sometimes break down
but he was going after the ball his his average speed on that was way up on the year and way up on Carlos Alcarez and that we said on Thursday's pod I think we have to take into account the whole that match happening on the same day that Raffa Nadal announces retirement and we later saw video of Alcarez literally watching that retirement speech from Nadal before he went on court and Alcarez talked about in his press conference how kind of
upset he was I think he was a bit distracted and he wasn't playing his best but Mahatch was awesome and you know we kind of talked at the start of the year about Mahatch and what would be a really good year for him and we said he needs to be getting himself seated as a starting point at the slams and he's he's going to be doing he's done that now he's he's up to 25 in the world so he should be seated at the Australian Open and I think this has been a really good year for Thomas Mahatch
he's he's jumped about 60 or 70 places in the rankings he's become just increasingly relevant you know whether it be sort of third or fourth round of majors or quarter finals semifinals of Masters events that he's absolutely taken the step that we all wanted him to take and it's just the question now is whether we can take that next step and and for me I see Tommy Paul as such a benchmark for Thomas Mahatch because he's beaten Tommy Paul back to back
beating him twice very very recently okay tight matches but Mahatch has won them and I just see no reason why game wise he can't be kind of where Tommy Paul is.
Quarters, semis of majors because Paul okay Paul's maybe maybe an all round better athlete than Thomas Mahatch but you can't do the things on the court that Mahatch can do take the ball so early and just take time away from Alcoraz and come up with incredible sort of one the shots repeatedly you know that you can do all these things Mahatch and you two were both harmed.
Leaping four hands I mean it's just such a joy and you two were both very much okay but he needs to show up against Janik Sinner and I really think he did I do he won as many games as no that Jacović did against Janik Sinner
and he had four all in the second set and he had break point you know he was right there even after losing the first set and Sinner came up with those favorite serves of his and stamped them out and did what he does but I do think Mahatch backed up that performance against Alcoraz against Sinner
okay he wasn't he wasn't at his absolute best he did make a few four hand errors that he wasn't making against Alcoraz but he showed up and I think this is a really good bounce back from the US open when he was absolutely appalling against Jack Draper and just no showed he is he's he's he's righted that wrong in the last couple of weeks and I'm just excited about the next year for Thomas Mahatch.
Is he ever won an ATP title he hasn't has he he's now the highest ranked player without one on the ATP side. It could be a big week for him and Almatti I'd say that's an opportunity to win a title in this form. I'd agree yeah I mean it's a tricky you know it's tricky transition isn't it one from another but again that's something that you've got to get used to do it. He's making excuses for him already. It's something you've got to get used to do.
When and where is this first title going to come? Well let's go this week and Almatti let's do it. Well yeah and I I think Catherine he kind of needs to do that. Oh God if we're going to sort of. The WTA this week is in Ningbo which is a 500 level event because it's keen a quite cheek of a MOOC of a Junsuwen and Paola Badosa playing there. Emina Voron-Jasmine Paulini of withdrawn and there's also a WTA 250 in Osaka where Bianca and Drescu and later Fernandez are both playing.
There is of course also the Saudi Kings slam Wednesday Thursday and Saturday this week it really was causing. Seeing Alcriyze and Juan Colasferero hang around to watch that final in Shanghai yesterday until I kind of joined the dots and realised it's probably because he's picked on the same private jet to Saudi for the Saudi Kings slam. The center and center and Jacoge of it are on which is a slightly depressing thought but there you go I believe it's being shown on sky in the UK.
We will be diligent tennis podcasters and we will watch some of it. If only just for Holgerunas please to be their energy. I'm quite looking forward to that. My kingdom by the way for a mic-top alternative commentary feed of that Fedora Alcria's chat they were non-stop talking throughout that. It did just make me think as much as you know Sinner and Jacoge of it it wasn't a great match so I think it was sort of exaggerated by that.
But the fact that like how fun would Fedora and Alcriyze have been as a match up. These two just passing ships that just never intersected to meet each other on a tennis court. Like I feel like Jacoge of it's Sinner these just incredibly efficient brilliant masterful tennis players.
And then you can kind of there were being watched on by Fedora and Alcriyze who sort of brought the fun and the shot making to their respective generations and yeah it's just tugging at me a little bit just seeing them sitting there rather than out on the court. Yeah, say you know you're not quite absorbed by a tennis match when you're in your mind you are imagining two people in the crowd playing an alternate tennis match.
I do wonder if it affected them you know I mean yeah when when Sinner was looking up at his own support team he's got Roger Fedora and Carlos Alcriyze sitting right behind them. And if you know that Jacoge you're looking up at Sinner support team and seeing your old physical trainers sitting there who used to be in your box like a few months back and then your greatest rival and the blocus just beating you in the Wimbledon final sitting behind them. I mean how could that not affect you a bit.
I also think for for Jacoge of it you know but I do believe and I think this is entirely legitimate like part of the reason he's chosen to go to China is because of the adulation he receives there he he is the man there and he's definitely in the being the man a hero of his career isn't he that is one benefit it's mostly negatives I think for him that his great rivals are all retiring.
So I'm benefit of it he gets to enjoy the spotlight of being the greatest all to himself and there was Fedora stealing a little bit of it and you know that's he's waited a long time to have that spotlight to himself as an e for Roger Fedora in retirement to come along and sit front and center and hold a little bit of it.
We will be back next Monday with our next podcast we are recording a next edition of tennis relived this week talking about the life story and career of Vitas Geralitis this is one I've been wanting to do for a very long time David has had some incredible conversations for this podcast with Mary Carrillo and with John McEnroe who were great great friends with with Vitas Geralitis.
And speak about him so movingly having incredible stories about him and Matt has been in the Wimbledon Library and apparently some someone came to the Wimbledon Library and asked to quote see where Matt Roberts sits.
It was actually get a photo where Matt Roberts sits. You are going to have a blue plaque in that place before you know it Matt. So it will be recording that show on Thursday for friends of the tennis podcast we've also done two Q&A shows in the past couple of weeks which if you haven't listened to them yet are available on our friends feed and if you'd like to become a friend to get access to all of that bonus content to get access to the world.
And everything else that we offer for friends of the pod then the link is in our show notes we have a mascot for this week hello to Ming. Ming is owned by Lisa and I can tell you from this photo Ming is not thrilled about mascot status. Ming is a white and absolutely beautiful handsome white cat at least it says Ming came to us at an indeterminate age after being found on the street by our veterinarian.
She's since shown great forbearance towards and some love for the two large dogs she's at different times share the house with always finding comfort in long stretches basking in the sun she's pictured in a favorite chair looking away from a tennis match on TV. And I would say that kind of kind of above it all is definitely the vibe I'm getting from from Ming tennis and mascot is beneath her which is my favorite vibe from cats that is very much what I'm looking for from cats.
And she's excellent. I do like a white cat something very fun about a pure white cat so hello to Ming will pop a picture of Ming in our newsletter and on our Instagram as well and thank you Lisa for making Ming a mascot for this week we have our mascots the dearly departed Darwin Francis of course and hide and so we have billy gene who's once by billy gene king and a Lana class we have our top folks. And executive producers hello to Chris Greg Jamie and Jeff and Matt we have some shout outs.
We have Andrew Greenhoff who is living in Bristol and we met Andrew at the Medvedev Alchra's US Open semi final last year and had a chat with him by the media seats. Yes I remember that too wow. We really didn't know what was going to happen now. We were still hyping up the jock of it shall crash final that was still to come.
Greenhoff obviously this is very tenuous but it's made me think of something that dawned on me this week which is that Wesley cool off who I see will be an integral part of the Dutch Davis Cup team. He has announced his retirement at the end of this season has any so we could be in a Nadal Kras versus cool off and another document in a retirement match for both players.
It's like a wrestling event. I just bet there will be slightly more spotlight on one side of the court than the other but still. There we go. I've been thinking about Wesley cool off. And Wesley cool off one Shanghai with mech ticch. Yes he did. Yeah going out on a high of his career. Andrew hello and thank you like Andrew Baron Murray. And Andrew says I can claim to have been one of the few to have watched Andy Marry's boys singles final win at the US open in 2004 against
Sojastikowski. I was there to Andrew. Wow that's very cool. Thanks Andrew. I've also got Jacqueline Powell in New Zealand. Hi Jacqueline. Hello Jacqueline like Jacqueline Christian who Matt is always trying to make happen. But not as much as Tony Penny on the bar to talk about her literally every day. It's because Matt's giving in validation. That's why. What do we know about Jacqueline? We know that Jacqueline started listening to the podcast in 2023 during the US open.
And Jacqueline says since then my love for tennis has been renewed to the point that I've started playing again after 27 years of not playing which is. Oh gosh. That's amazing. Oh I love that. Thank you Jacqueline. That's absolutely lovely. That's great. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. And finally we've got Jacqueline Moore again. Hang on we've got Jacqueline Moore again or we've got Jacqueline Moore again. Jacqueline Moore again. Like Jacqueline Horvath. Yes.
Who I believe we were alerted to the last time we had a Jacqueline. Yes. And yes. Jacqueline says that she's known as Kathy with a K like Kathy May Taylor Fritz's mum. Yes. Or Kathy Whitaker which is how I'm known to my family but with a C. Yes. Kathy says maybe not the same Pue but maybe we could sing in the choir. Yes. I mean my policy on public singing is to mine because I'm tuneless but I will mine behind you in the choir Kathleen.
I'm not often in public singing situations. When have you heard me sing? Well whenever Taylor Fritz comes on Taylor Fritz comes on. Yeah and it's completely tuneless. So. I'm not arguing with that. I just say that I get to hear it a lot. I think a lot is an overstatement. I'd go with a lot. You're just not aware of it. You're in maths. You both sing and you're completely unaware that you're doing it.
So lost in the moment. Which is great. I must get I must get it on video for our listeners and Instagrammers. Kathleen thank you very much indeed. Folks we'll be back for friends mid week with our Vita's Geralightest pod and we'll be back with our next week. Thank you for on Monday to talk about more finals all happening at the same time. Thanks for listening. We'll speak to you then. Thank you.