Rome - When will we stop underestimating Jasmine Paolini?

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This episode is brought to you by TNT Sports, where you can watch Grand Slam tennis throughout the summer. With Roland Garros just around the corner, we can't wait to see the world's biggest tennis stars. Take to the iconic Orange Clay for a thrilling start to summer as Grand Slam Tennis arrives on TNT Sports for the first time. Matt, who are you looking forward to seeing in Paris?

I'm always excited to see Carlos Alcaraz, and this year watching him try to defend his title against the likes of Sinner, Djokovic, and even Britain's Jack Draper is going to be fascinating. Good stuff. David, what about the women? Well, Irina Sabalenka is the dominant player, but Iga Sviontek is the defending champion. So who's the favourite? Probably Sabalenka. Koko Goff will be there challenging. Maybe Emma Raducano can...

Watch every match overall on Garros from May 25th to June 8th exclusively live on TNT Sports. Stream only on Discovery+. So watch on TNT Sports channels on EE, Sky and Virgin Media. Subscription required. 18 plus. T's and C's apply. Hi, this is Billie Jean King. This is Marion Bartotti. This is Bianca Andreescu. I'm Mats Villander. This is Mary Carrillo. This is Pam Shriver. This is Yannick Noah, and you're listening to The Tennis Podcast.

Hello and welcome to the Jasmine Paolini apology podcast. Yes, I'm so pleased that tonight's show is live. Hello to everybody that is joining us live on YouTube tonight. Hello to everybody. that doesn't want to... revel in our apologies live and is prepared to listen to this as a regular podcast. There's just no way around this one. We're going to have to take our medicine and I think it's going to be...

A very fun show indeed with a brand new intro. Thank you to cameraman Matthew for that who, rumour has it, might even be joining us live tonight, which would be... Let's just say out of character for a man that very rarely listens to this podcast at all. David.

uh what a day between the very excitement announcement of a new era of the tennis podcast partnering very excitingly with the athletic which we announced earlier on today and we really are thrilled and excited about between that and all the humble pie uh that you've been eating what a day Yeah, I'm quite relieved that we got that deal done before they heard about the Jasmine Paolini latest debacle, to be quite honest. But there we are.

I noticed you've come to me first because I'm the experienced one where it comes to getting Jasmine Paolini facts wrong. But all I can say is it's okay because she sort of makes you feel good even though you've been made to look a complete fool. Yeah, she gives the impression that she wouldn't hold it against us. Now, I haven't heard that from the horse's mouth. But that is, those are the lines that I'm reading between with Jasmine. Yes.

We need the credibility of the New York Times as a fig leaf for our Jasmine Paolini Takes match. How are you doing? You're as big a culprit as David.

I was going to say David David has company today and honestly like did she have to go and win the doubles as well like to really rub it in and I loved it I absolutely loved it I really really enjoy seeing Jasmine Pallini when it's one of the great sites. In the sport, her dancing on court, jumping up and down on court, generally bouncing all over the court. It's fantastic.

But it did feel a bit like she was out to prove a real point by not only winning the singles, but winning the doubles as well and getting the whole week unbeaten in both formats. Like, what an epic... Sorry, Jasmine.

Yeah, we're going to be saying that a lot over the course of the next hour or so. We're also going to be hearing from Charlie Eccleshire from The Athletic, our new partners, a little bit later on. And don't worry, we are going to be talking about Carlos Alcaraz and Yannick Sinner and the men's side of things. I really do feel like Jasmine Paolini deserves us to start with Jasmine Paolini. And also I feel like it'll just...

Talking about Jasmine Paolini will set the vibes off in the right place for this show because I am still basking in the reflected glow of Jasmine Paolini. guzzling Prosecco on Campo Centrale in the Foro Italico after both the singles and doubles victories. Just some of the most joyful scenes I have ever seen. in a victory ceremony, truly. Like, I... I don't think I've ever seen Joy radiating through a TV screen quite like Jasmine Paolini, quite frankly. And yes, of course, we underestimated her.

in terms of, you know, picking Coco Gauff as the favourite for this final, for this title going into that final. But David...

For me, it wasn't actually the fact that Jasmine Paolini won this final that was the most surprising thing. It was the way she did it. she actually got better in the tournament as it went along and I think it takes some doing to take on Coco Goff in that type of match. You know, it's one thing to just completely comprehensively outplay Goff. Some people are capable of doing that. Not many people are capable of just... going into the trenches like that and sort of winning a match of that type.

Pauline just doesn't know barriers, does she? She doesn't know limits on herself. She doesn't think about these things, I don't think. I mean, I don't want to bring it down just to vibe. Because obviously she trains incredibly hard. She thinks about her tactics. She's taken a pretty major leap of of a coaching change from Renzo Furlan who she'd been with for such a long time and who seemed to have a really good relationship with and loads and loads of success and has gone to Mark Lopez and

it's building so it's clearly trying to work on new things and find new things so that's worked but you just get this radiating feel don't you from her from Lopez from Arani in the box there from everybody else who's around her that it just elevates her game the fact that She's so blooming well enjoying it. She's been waiting her whole life to win the Italian Open, as it used to be called, Masters 1000 Rome, or whatever it's called now. And she...

Probably wanted it more than anybody in the world. The BNL d'Italia, David. That's the one. The Internationale BNL d'Italia. Yes. I remember when it used to be called the Tim Cup, and I said to Tim Hemming, it's got your name on it, and he just... He gave me the sort of weathering look I deserved. But anyway... Didn't need to say that, did I? But I did. And Jasmine Parolini has got that trophy now, and Tim never did. So she's happier, and rightfully so.

Matt, follow that. Well, just to go back to the amazing scenes that you were describing, Catherine and Paolini. guzzling the champagne and dancing all over the court like I said I've recreated it on our Instagram folks if you you know Great content. It's been a great content day and that was a real hit. I said it on the pod last week, you know, like Paolini had this magnificent 2024 and For those of us who constantly underestimate her, I was looking at that thinking, how do you bed at

It was just the summer, wasn't it, of Jasmine Paolini, the way she reached those back-to-back Grand Sanfarno's, got the Olympic gold in the doubles as well. It was just magnificent. And look, she hasn't hit those heights consistently. One of the slightly unfortunate things is that she did lose those two grandstand finals, so she didn't really get that incredible moment of joy that she deserved with her tremendous improvement and result.

There were these amazing runs, but they had this slight disappointment at the end because she didn't quite get over the line. Obviously, big picture, it was all a huge success. But it was just nice that actually she did get the trophy this time, and it was just... unadulterated joy at the end I loved seeing that so much and Look, I did make Coco Gauff the favourite in this final. She's got a very good finals record, does Coco Gauff, as David was sort of hinting at.

And kind of one of the ironies is that I quite often find myself not wanting to underestimate Coco Gauff because I do look at her game sometimes. you know, a wince a little bit at the forehand or at the serve, and she hadn't played very well against Young Chin Wen, and yet... She's world number two. She's the WTA finals champion. She's a major champion. We talk so much about how great someone like Mira Andreva is and Coco Goff. And she is great.

Coco Gauff has a 4-0 head-to-head record against her. Sometimes when you watch Coco Gauff, it's... it's easy to underestimate her as well. So I maybe try and sort of compensate for that a little bit when I make Coco Gauff takes. I'm always like, well, she does so much winning. So I just thought she would win this. And frankly, Paolini had not been at her absolute best. through the tournament, you know, Schneider could have beaten her, Stearns was ahead in the semi-finals, but

It was a quality final from Paulina. I thought she got her tattoo. absolutely spot on. She had just beaten Goff a few weeks ago in Stuttgart and she really carried that over. She was hitting her backhand down the line. so well to the goth forehand she was trading forehands herself with pace and but with margin as well like really really smart tactically she protected her own serve well did paolini

Like, just everything came together. And I think Goff was maybe a little bit flat from the start. I don't know whether the really late finish, that epic semi-final, might have just impacted her a little bit.

Paulini did not- shrink because of the crowd on top of her which again I thought might be another element here you know that's a lot of pressure to live up to but actually She just performed brilliantly, and the second set was actually extremely one-sided in Paolini's favour, and she thoroughly deserved to win that. and we deserve to eat that.

Those tactics that... that paulini deployed to perfection and i know tactics need to be executed well in order to work um it's the you know tactics are only half of the story but you know that the backhand down the line exposing the the goth forehand There's a lot of good backhands down the line on the WTA tour.

Has a bit of a template perhaps been created here for other players on the WTA for... for attacking Coco Goff or has the plan of attack against Coco Goff kind of always always been there shouting pretty loud i mean paula madossa shouted it very loud a couple of years ago didn't she there's you know there's no secrets there yeah i think i think Players know what to do against Goff, but that's where we have to credit Paulini.

One thing knowing what to do and one thing being able to do it. And look, Goff did not have her best day. Like, absolutely not. But Paolini really, really took advantage of that. And yeah, she does seem to have Goff. Goff's number at the moment with these two wins on clay pretty close together.

We've got the Roland Garros draw on Thursday, which obviously I'm excited for, but that's something that we'll be looking further later on in the draw, whether Paulini and Goff. paths on the same half of the draw or not is going to be something I'm looking out for. Have you picked out your outfit for the Roland Garros draw yet, Matt? I thought it might be nice to wear some pod merch. So, I think I'll be wearing my new Batman list t-shirt.

so to answer your question yes I have given it some thought throughout this final David And throughout those glorious scenes in the trophy ceremony, which are hopefully going to live rent free in my head for a very, very long time. I kept thinking about what Matt said on our last podcast on Friday morning about how... This is Paulini getting to do and achieve something new. Like, it was really difficult to see a way for that after last year for Jasmine Paulini.

I'm going to really try and phrase this in a way that doesn't underestimate Jasmine Paolini, but with the best will in the world. I think it still remains unlikely that she reaches to Grand Slam finals this year. I am prepared to say. Well, do you disagree? No, I don't. And I hold my hands up. I'm underestimating her again. Is she in the mix?

Hang on, I'm getting there, David. I'm trying to get a question out. Of course she's in the mix. I'm trying to get a different question out here before we get to the mix. And I've lost my train of thought. No, I kept on thinking about what Matt said on the last show about how... she's achieved something here which means

Which kind of takes the pressure off Roland Garros and Wimbledon. Like, I feel like for her, she's almost done something here which matches that incredible summer of 2024 and those back-to-back grandstand finals. I know on paper. Grand Sam finals are a bigger achievement and they earn you more ranking points and more money and all the rest of it. But I don't think she'd swap the Rome title for a Grand Sam final this year.

I really, really don't. I feel like she's got something in the bank here which already makes this season match the last pretty much even if the maths don't don't quite maths on that front yeah unless she unless she would have win a grandson finally i agree with you i think this is the biggest moment of her career this is

bigger than those ones last year in that regard being a home tournament being you know holding the trophy holding you know it's great having good runs but can you remember her face when she didn't win last year you know it was she was still smiling but it was tough scene to see her not really be happy because look she just lost and here she's

She's having the night of her life, isn't she? Just guzzling the brisecco and the gods. But I think the interesting thing is that she still isn't... I don't think going into tournaments as the favourite, but that's what makes it all so fascinating. I mean, I do feel like there's a clear favourite in Arena Sabalenka, and yet Sabalenka was in this draw, she didn't win.

There are so many players that I think come into this Roland Garros because Igor Svantec is not the Igor Svantec of previous years that there's a lot of players who think Absolutely, why not me? And particularly given what happened with Madison Keyes. So I'm sure Paolini's totally believing she has a chance of going on.

The reason I was putting off the mix question is because I feel like that's, it's not much of a question, is it? Like last year's finalist, Rome champion, of course she's in the mix. And that's not, genuinely, I'm not trying to overcompensate for past. not trying to correct for past sins. I'd still be a little bit surprised if she won it. Wouldn't you be a little bit surprised if she won it? No. No, I've moved past that now. We've grown.

So David, hang on, you just described someone that's not in the mix. I haven't said that. but i've hinted at it um now i i i think she is because i think that the mix is quite big um this year i've said i mean i think there is a clear favorite but there's a lot of players that i think given how open it is Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if they won. Who's ahead of Paolini in the mix line-up for you?

I tell you what's interesting is... Other than Sabalenko, obviously. Is Iga Spionta go ahead of it? I mean, that's an interesting question to me at the moment because obviously her top level is is clearly, clearly better, but she's not playing anywhere near her top level. Is it attainable, given the time she's got?

I don't really think it is. I think it's unlikely. It's interesting with Svantec. She's been putting it. There's been a lot of eager Svantec at Roland Garros training incredibly hard content coming out over the last few days. I mean, I think the first... Very heavy duty training footage I saw of Svantec at Roland Garros was Friday, maybe even Thursday. And, you know, we'll come on to talk about Carlos Alcaraz, but...

He's played late evening Sunday in Rome and he's planning to go home and have a couple of days rest before Roland Garros, whereas Shontek seems to be basically having a two-week break. practice block, intense practice block at Roland Garros before getting going, which is obviously, you know, those are their two contrasting characters. and contrasting I don't know I mean obviously Shontek's in the mix but I don't feel the need to rank the mix

Do you know what I mean? Like, you're either in the mix or you're out of the mix. Matt takes issue with the question. And Shriantek and Paolini, for me, are both. What's interesting is Paolini's win puts her into the number four seed position. So Svantec's actually going to be the fifth seed. So we could get Savalenka and Svantec in the quarter five. which, you know, would be pretty wild. You know, equally we could get Chiantep Goff or...

Paolini or Pagoula, you know, so that, like, that, again, not to just keep talking about the French Open draw, but, like, that was significant, I think, Paolini's win here, bumping her up to four and Svantec down to five, that has implications. But for me, both in the mix. I would also add Goff. I'd probably include Andrava. Myself. And then Zhang is a bit of a maybe. I don't quite know whether I'm there yet with Zhang Chinwen.

Maybe she deserves to be, you know, in terms of she just beat Irina Sabalenka. She won the gold at Roland Garros last year. You know, she's got a CV that suggests... She's kind of been there and done it in a way that Androva hasn't. Yeah, exactly. So it depends what you give more weight to, really. I just think the winning that Andreva's done this year was so impressive that I...

I probably would put her in the mix. I don't think I would be all that shocked if she came through. She's not my pick, but I am going to put her in the mix. Everyone's picked still Sabalenka. Is there anything that could happen in the draw on Thursday that would change that? No. No, I don't think so.

I was watching qualifying today. Obviously caught Scissor. And I was watching Bianca Andreescu, who won pretty handily. Bianca Andreescu had won six love sets. Before I'd even realised what day it was this morning at Roland Garros, a tournament that I hadn't even processed had begun yet. I felt like I was still dreaming. On court interview, they asked, what are your hopes for Ron and Garros? And she said, well, I think we all want to win it, right?

And she says, so I think I'm going to say that. And I thought. Gotta love it. That's not helping me Bianca. Still processing. The last six years. Okay, so nobody's prepared to make any further bold predictions. David's mincing his words about Paolini and the mix. Everybody's picking Sabalenka. That's where we're landing. Yeah, I've got a few more days to just consider and then process the draw. And then we'll see. Irani Paolini, surely the favourites for the women's doubles title?

Yeah, I mean, look, I think very, very hard to win singles and doubles at the same major. You know, Craig Cheekova did it, didn't she, at the... the French Open. But if Paolini does have a deep run, I do think that does impact the doubles as well um yeah i know she's done it here in rome but you know it's just so much longer over over grand slam even more

That was an extraordinary doubles final. They were love four down in both sets and one in straight sets. I mean, just absolutely remarkable comebacks in both sets. Kudomatova really... really lost her way right at the end of that second set. Her forehand was suddenly all over the place. But I love seeing the very clear tactics that Irani and Paolini have. They're just a super fun team to watch.

Because up at the net, Irani is one of the best volleyers on the tour. She's got great hands. She knows how to put volleys in really awkward spots. And Paolini is one of the best baselers. So they're constantly trying to manoeuvre and manipulate points to get themselves in that formation.

Paulini at the back and Irani at the net and Irani does it with moon balls and charging the net unexpectedly and they both stand at the back when when you know sometimes when serving like it's just really really fun to watch them as a duo and the crowds in Rome for their match fantastic like shout out the rome crowds they were there they were there for paulini and irani early yesterday knowing that sinner was

was later on in the day, who obviously they were kind of all there for as well, but they made sure they were in their seats early for Irani and Paolini. It just really, really added to the occasion. Classic speech from Paolini at the end, thanking lying judges and then realising that there weren't any. And forgetting to thank Irani. And then asking for the mic back. Just absolutely brilliant.

I actually think generally I think I love Rome I unashamedly love Rome it's one of my favourite non-Grand Slam events But I think this was a particularly good Rome. Like, this one smashed out of the park, even though it was a two-week-long Masters. I mean, they all are. I think this was, yeah, a bit of a stunner. Just finally on the women's front, this is obviously our last show before our Roland Garros Draw show on Thursday.

So next time you hear from us, we'll be talking about the draw. Hannah's pointed out in the live chat that... there's a lot of top 16 seeds that are quite out of form. Like this drawer is going to be very interesting. You know, you've got, Okay, bear with me here. Amanda Anasimova is going to be 16th seed. I know she's a semi-finalist in Paris and she's had an incredible season. That's why she's going to be 16th seed, but she hasn't...

She hasn't done much on the clay yet. You've got Krejcikova, 15th seed. Is she still a tennis player who can say, Mukova's going to be 14th seed, we're back in her 12th seed. Like, is she in anyone's mix? Bedossa, Navarro, Jung Chin Wen, Madison Keys, even Jessica Bukula down at third seed. Yeah, like it's... I don't know, this is going to be very interesting. Whereas you've got a group of players, I was looking at this in the 20 seedings, Kostiuk, Towson, Ostapenko, of course, Peyton Stearns.

She might win the thing. Is our Peyton Stearns guy in the chat tonight? I hope so. If you are, please make yourself heard. I mean, hang on. If he was, he'd have made himself heard by now, right? He just sort of dropped in, left his Peyton Stearns pick and then left. Maybe there'll be copycats, people claiming to be the Peyton Stearns guy. Yeah. And then, of course, you've got unseeded players on the WTA that you always get. You know, dormant volcanoes, bang shit.

Radha Khan, who had a great win today in Strasbourg, beating Kasikina for the first time. Really impressive win from her. Osaka, you know, we saw how...

She's started to string some wins together and how well she played in the second round at Rowan Garros last year. You know, Daniel Collins just beating Igor Fiontek. You know, there's a lot of intrigue, as always, in that draw. And absolutely part of it is... seeds who you know are pretty high but out of form that that is absolutely a big big part Belinda Benchit.

Hannah's just mentioned. When did we last talk about her? I mean, I feel like six weeks ago, David was picking her to win multiple slams quite confidently. We haven't mentioned her since. Yeah, this always happens to me in the spring. Last year, it was Daniel Collins. Yeah. P.S. folks, the Peyton Stearns guy is in the chat. Can we all say a very big hello to Ghost of Gerolitis? He has popped up to say, Peyton got it in the bag. We salute you, my friend. That's it for the WTA.

Well, earlier we were talking about Roland Garros, and you can watch every match of this incredible Grand Slam live on TNT Sports for the first time. Roland Garros is one of the most iconic sporting events, so you don't want to miss a single match. Who do you think is favourite for the women's title this year? Well, normally the answer to that is Igor Sviantek, but I think it's Irina Sabalenka's time.

Oh, fun. David, what about the men? I find it very hard to go against Carlos Alcraz coming in as the defending champion. Whenever he's playing his best, he feels like the favourite to me. I think he's coming into form at just the right time. Watch every match of Roland Garros from May 25th to June 8th exclusively live on TNT Sports stream only on Discovery+.

Or watch TNT Sports channels on EE Sky and Virgin Media. Subscription required. 18 plus. T's and C's apply. Thanks to TNT Sports for sponsoring this episode. BetterHelp Online Therapy bought this 30-second ad to remind you right now, wherever you are, to unclench your jaw, relax your shoulders. Marathon. And out. Feels better, right? That's 15 seconds of self-care. Imagine what you could do with more. For 10% off your first month of therapy. No pressure. Just help. But for now, just relax.

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Moving on to the ATP in Rome, Carlos Alcaraz became the champion for the first time. He beat Yannick Sinner 7-6, 6-1 in the final. Of course, we have the men's semifinals to talk about as well. They've happened since. Our last pod, we had Yannick Senna beating Tommy Paul in a Very bizarre match. 1-6, 6-love, 6-3. And Carlos Alcaraz beating a very nervous Lorenzo Mazzetti. 6-3, 7-6. If I was a meaner person, Matt Roberts.

I would come to you and I would say, what was the experience like of watching this match live? I would say... I don't know, because I was having a great time watching Fulham beat Brentford. What a week of live events I've had. Bruce Springsteen on Wednesday, Fulham beating Brentford on Sunday. I've belted at the top of my voice both. Both show a little faith there's magic in the night and you're just a bus stop in Hounslow. Like the range there. Who can say which is more profound?

But both deeply enjoyable. And, you know, I've caught up. I don't think it was a classic Alcaraz Sinner. It was intriguing. I've caught up, but it was absolutely a classic. Classic West London derby. Had to be there. Yeah, full and willing that match. It ruined your day, didn't it? And Cineraz not being quite the classic that everyone thought it was going to be. It really ruined quite a funny bit.

which was that Matt had made some terrible life choices on Sunday no I'm pleased for you Matt I'm pleased for you it wasn't bad like the first set was The first set was tense and I was really locked in watching it, David. But it was nervy, wasn't it? that first set, and then suddenly Alcaraz freed up in the second set and put on a show for everybody. But a very disciplined show.

The first set was quite similar to their match at Ron and Garros last year, which was five sets of it, of tense and scrappy and not as good as we hoped. This was good.

But it was neither player playing their best tennis at the same time. I mean, I think we've seen the fatigue. affect Sinner in those last two matches. When you think back to his match against Root Obviously that was a Virtuoso performance. It was a Paul one from Rude. Then he plays Tommy Paul.

he loses what first five games it's really scrappy and and then he goes on this incredible run and then he starts getting reeled in in the third set and he wins but he wins the match against Alcraz I got the sense that he was like a boxer who didn't think he'd got... 12 rounds in the tank so he was going for big big haymakers a lot of the time. I felt he was trying to shorten rallies in a way that I'm not used to against Alcaraz for Sinner.

He was the one loading up on the power and trying to... trying to just force him back and it was kind of working and it particularly worked when the latter stages that first set when he was going cross court forehand into Alcraz's forehand and he was drawing error after error from that wing i was really surprised the way the Alcaraz forehand was just off and and he's got he had two set points he had a 40 15 situation he had two two set points

and he didn't seal them. Fair play to Alcaraz. There was that piece I think Matt Futterman wrote about Alcaraz wanting to be a serve-bomb. the other day and it's kind of a laughable notion because he really has a fairly ordinary serve really compared to the rest of his game and yet several times when he had a bit of pressure he would put a service ace onto them right on the line like on the outside of the line perfect serving and Really soon I should have won that first set.

He had the chances, he had two in a row, and he didn't take them. And I still think that that is that rust. I think the fatigue. And then you're quite right, though. The moment Alcraz had got that first set under his belt, you could just see the white leg. And he reminded us in that second set what he is capable of. I think...

I think that was the best set of tennis I've seen from anybody all year. He threw the lot at Sinner. He actually made Sinner look quite ordinary for a set of tennis. And I think that that is mainly because Sinner was... tiring but it was also because Alcraz was freeing up and just reminding you the variety he has at his disposal I mean he finished that first set I think with with the volley and with the net attack you know and and that's what he has that Senna doesn't it's just that

It's not as reliable as the Sinner game. So really watch the appetite. I think Sinner's had a good week, but I think Alcaraz is right where it is. Totally impossible counterfactual question for you both. Is your sense that if Alcaraz had lost that first set on the tie-break, he would still likely have come back and won in three? I think it depends on how he coped mentally with the first set loss. I think there was plenty left in his tank so I think he would probably have come back and won.

The mental thing is really... interesting because I find this rivalry particularly fascinating from a Carlos Alcaraz point of view because he always brings it against Senna and that doesn't mean he always brings his absolute top Finger to the ear, producing all the trip shots, loose as anything, tennis. I think there was one finger to the ear after set point, wasn't there? And then he realised he was in Italy and sort of went.

oh probably shouldn't that didn't work didn't work quite as well as it does elsewhere um but he brings it mentally he locks in he doesn't have It's disciplined in a way that it isn't against other players, even Novak Djokovic, who he has the utmost respect for, but respect in a way that can... paralyze him at points during during tennis matches I think it it manifests in quite a different way I think against Yannick Sinner Matt yeah I think that's right there is a

a focus, a discipline. I think because he knows he has to be. I think he knows that he cannot afford... To have those lapses against the other players, how often do we see him get away with it? Like against Hachinov in Rome a few rounds before. He just absolutely disappeared. Do you think that's what it is? Do you think it's a subconscious, lads, it's Tottenham? No, I think it's a conscious, it's Yannick.

Right. I think Sinner is the difference. But then, just as a counter to that, he has a conscious ladsitz Novak Djokovic. And that can manifest in intense anxiety in a way that it doesn't quite against Sinner. I mean, we've also seen Al Kraz play fantastically well against Sinner.

haven't we in those two Wimbledon finals even in a couple of the losses he's taken the Olympics final he was great in that it was a really quality match the Cincinnati one was quality I think this year's Australian Open was was different to that I think he was a bit spooked by it I think he was spooked by the way I think he gets spooked by Djokovic in a way he doesn't against Sinner because Djokovic can sort of one minute look like he's struggling and then the next minute oh my word what's this

Yeah, it's true. That gets in his head, doesn't it? Whereas Sinner's just straight as an arrow all the time. And it was so...

It was so sudden the way that Australian Open changed. He won that first set, Alcaraz and Djokovic is injured. And suddenly Djokovic came out playing more aggressively, middling the ball. And I think everyone in that stadium was a bit shocked by how good... suddenly Djokovic was and Alcaraz himself and he didn't quite make the adjustments and I know that Djokovic won but it is very interesting how the sinner Alcaraz has developed. You know, there was a time...

Probably a couple of years ago, where it felt like Alcaraz was... kind of ahead of everyone else on the tour maybe with the exception of Djokovic but he was not necessarily beating Sinner all the time Sinner led their head to head 4-3 at the end of 2023 but as Sinner has taken it up another level and become the best player on tour. He's actually not beaten Alcaraz. He's 0-4 in their last four meetings, split evenly between Klay and the hardcore.

You know, there's a stat, Sinner is 85-3 against everyone except Alcaraz. since the start of 2024, and he's 0-4 against Alcaraz. It's just a really, really interesting element right now to the ATP Tour.

I agree. I think this is pretty much the best version of Alcaraz that we're consistently seeing is the one against Sinner right now. And I think it started in that Indian Wells match. last year where he changed his tactics he started looping the ball and we saw that tactical variety that he's got in this match as well he started looping it it didn't work sinner as david said was crushing the ball but then okay he was like

I've got that when I need it. If I need it later, I'll use a bit of slice. He started throwing in some drop shots in that second set. He's able to play with... the trajectory of the ball, the weight of his shot, the spin on the ball. And he can bring all that out and he can use it and he knows he needs it against Sinner. And it's under control and, yeah, it's the best version. So kind of throwing it ahead to the French Open, I feel pretty confident that they'll both reach the latter stages.

the trend on the tour has kind of been, you can feel even more confident in Yannick Sinner because he's just competing. He can beat everyone else. He's shown it. Alcaraz might get tripped up along the way. I don't think he will, but he might. But if they were to meet... So he's not losing to Burtick, is he? Right, it's just not happening. It's just not happening.

Whereas Alcaraz could lose to Burtick again. We've seen it. Anytime, anywhere. But if they both get to the latter stages, you would have to give the age to Alcaraz. because of the last year or so. Okay, so... I have to...

This is the obvious question to go to, given everything you've just said, Matt, which is, I mean, that's incredible about Sinner versus everybody but Alcaraz. Does Yannick Sinner have a Carlos Alcaraz problem? David? At the moment. Either of you. Somebody. Yeah. But I mean. It feels a bit harsh, doesn't it, to call it a massive problem? I didn't say massive, I said problem. I don't think so, because... They played at the French Open and it was really close. It was five sets.

Beijing was a final set tie break, wasn't it? Yeah, and this doesn't feel completely representative of the real Yannick Senna to me. I think he... he tied out as this tournament went on and I think that's completely understandable I still think When they play each other at their very best level, I think Alcaraz is the better player. He's the more complete player. He can do more things. But you don't know whether he's going to produce that.

on a given day. And I think you can be pretty confident that Yannick Sinner will produce his game on any... But I suppose that's what we're saying. I think Yannick Sinner does have a little bit of an Elkraz problem. I suppose the thing we're saying is we're increasingly confident that Elkraz will bring it again. You know, like the big Alcaraz question mark that we all had. will he show up and he's repeatedly showing up against Sinner which does present an issue for Sinner I think

More mind games for Sinner. But they could easily not play each other because of Alcaraz's other problems. Yeah, I think... Right, absolutely. But I'm just saying, in that match-up, I do think right now Sinner's got some thinking to do. And I think particularly on the two surfaces that we're going to be playing on clay and then going into the grass, I'd definitely give.

Alcaraz the age on those surfaces get it back on a hard court I think it's look I know Alcaraz did win in Indian Wells in Beijing but I I think I would probably be backing Sinner. You've got night sessions to consider as well. Right. My friends don't like them. And he keeps losing against people at night. Yeah, night sessions is a problem for our crowds, particularly at the US Open.

They're going to put it, he's going to need to be beating Burtick van der Zandtkel type people at night. He kind of looks like my son a bit, you know, when he's up late and he knows it. It's cool to be up late, but I'm so tired. But I'm not going to say I am. Gracias. We've seen your son in that mood. while Matt's disgracing himself on FIFA. Okay. Um...

I did have another Carlos Alcaraz question, but I started thinking about Matt doing an overhead kick to make it 6-0 against your 12-year-old son on FIFA, and now it's all I can think about. It was only 4-0. Ha ha ha ha ha! There were tears. There's no need to go into whose tears they were. Okay. The last point on the final is, I was going to say how weird it was having a stadium be eerily quiet for Carlos Alcaraz.

screaming improbable winners. That was quite a weird experience, actually. Like, fine, I totally get it. They're, you know, so pro-sinner. They're distributed orange. paraphernalia to the crowd ahead of the match I think not Fox paraphernalia because Yannick Fox isn't happening You're a character. Yeah. But yeah, it was cool, wasn't it? It was cool. I mean, not for Carlos Alcaraz, but it was cool. Oh, it looked fantastic. Those shots from the top of the stadium.

with so many people wearing the orange. Yeah, great. Loved it. So Sinner and Alcaraz in the mix. Alcaraz, the clear favourite to defend his title for everybody. The favourite. I never feel that confident about him these days because of his lack of reliability.

Lorenzo Mazzetti is here in the mix still. He wasn't bad in that semi-final, was he? But... Nerves were quite a big issue and I was trying to kind of project that situation onto a Grand Slam semi-final and... I don't know. I know we've seen him in one, but... Yeah, I suddenly, watching him in the Rome semi-final, I suddenly thought, you're brilliant, you have the capability to be in a mix.

But right now I do think I would be surprised if you won the French Open. Yeah, he's going to decorate the tournament. He's going to probably trip up somebody of significance along the way. But he's not going to win the thing. because Fonseca's winning it obviously David if you're talking about ceilings people have got the ability David tried to revive a deal on our Fantasy League WhatsApp group this week that was offered many weeks ago by Reggie of Jesper de Jong for Joel Fonseca.

Tongue and shake. Matt, you're our Mazzetti guy. Mazzetti, Paul, if you had to put one of them in the mix, who's in it? If I had to put one of the Mazzetti over Paul, for sure. For sure. I agree with you. I don't think he's quite in the mix yet. I think I would be surprised if he won Roland Garros. I really do think he can make the semis here. I really do think so. Which isn't a bold prediction, considering he's made the semis of every one of the big clay court events.

this season incredible level of consistency which we haven't necessarily seen from him before so he has made a big jump And his losses at the French Open are to great players only. He's lost in five, twice to Djokovic, once at three in the morning, once. once, you know, for the fans. He lost in five to Sitsapas, when Sitsapas was a real force on the clay, and he lost to Alcaraz. So I think he's going to take a top-level player to beat Mazzetti, but I think one of them will.

So I'm not putting Mazzetti in the mix, but I am expecting a deep run from him here. Yeah, I think the other... The other names, you know, rude. We pretty categorically put him in the mix.

Well, some of us did. I don't think I did. Okay, here's a question for you. Does Does Yannick Sinner's performance in the final and semi-final against Tommy Paul, which OK won, he was very convincing in the end, but there were some alarming moments in that match, does that reframe that performance against Kasparud for you? Not really, no. I thought he was fantastic against Rude. He loves playing Rude. He does. He likes Rude.

the ball that rude gives him. I thought, um, Darren Cahill had some, and he had the Pope, Pope bounce. Exactly. Post Pope. And Darren Cahill had a fascinating interview on, on sky with Laura. where he talked about how he said that he took the blame for sinners drop after that because he said I tried to keep him up here you know I said I thought we can we can do that again we can pull that performance out again but he said what I should have done is reset him and been like

That was a one-off spectacular performance. You're probably not going to play like that again. We need to not expect too much too soon. And he came out and suddenly he's 5-0 down against Paul and suddenly Sinner had to figure that one out. It doesn't change the fact that what I saw from Sinnoh against Rude was absolutely remarkable.

I think he suffered a bit with blisters, didn't he, in this tournament. I think that was affecting him against Paul, maybe against Alcaraz as well. That match sharpness was there against Ruud, but it wasn't always there in the tournament. David talked about those set points that he missed against Alcaraz.

I think a sharp Yannick Sinner does not make those errors that he made on those set points. And maybe you can take, you know, if you're Sinner, you can take some real positives there that even without his absolute best, he still had set points. against Alcaraz and a little bit sharp I think he probably takes them so for me For me, Alcaraz and Sinner are still pretty clear of the rest of the field. I think I'm putting Alcaraz ahead still because of the preparation he's had. We know he's had...

Great preparation in one sense, in terms of resting and training and just having a break and getting the band behind him. But in the other sense, he's lacking matches against top players, and Alcarez has got them, and that's why I do give the age to Alcarez.

Did you see the stat yesterday that besides Novak Djokovic, Alexander Zverev is now the oldest member of the men's top ten? maybe that's not a surprise but There you go. Changing of the guard, et cetera, et cetera. Straight off to Hamburg, trying to get some matches in, he was. Yes, he's panicked and entered Hamburg, hasn't he? BetterHelp Online Therapy bought this 30-second ad to remind you right now, wherever you are, to unclench your jaw, relax your shoulders. And out.

Feels better, right? That's 15 seconds of self-care. Imagine what you could do Is it better? forward slash random pod for 10% off your first month of therapy. No pressure, just help. But for now, just relax. Your business is going places with three business. Enjoy business class roaming in EU destinations, whether you're video calling from Vienna, Networking in Naples. Or closing sales from Stockholm. Upgrade to business class roaming in the EU from £2.50 extra a month.

Search three business today. Additional £2.50 per sim when you buy 20 plus sims on a 24 month plan. Excluding 20% VAT. Fair use policy applies in GoRome destinations. Terms apply. Let's talk about the week ahead. French Open qualifying week. Bianca Vandreescu already within the line. Love and love victory on Suzanne Longland. Suzanne Longland's already happening, David. I know. We're doing our own review show and there's already been a day of Longland. I know. Tennis is just so... So relentless.

Folks, let's say hello to The Athletic's Charlie Eccleshare. Hello, Charlie. We need somebody on this show that hasn't disgraced themselves with Jasmine Paolini takes in the recent past. And to you. Thank you very much. Hello. Yes, though I was thinking Jasmine Paolini, she is one of those players

when are we going to start backing her? Because she just makes you consistently look stupid. But at some point, maybe if she wins a major, maybe that's the point at which we finally stop underestimating her. But yeah, I... If I had vocalised my takes ahead of that final, I would have sounded just as stupid as you guys ended up sounding. Oh, good. Yeah, very well. The vibe that we spend so long talking about, and I think everybody that watches tennis...

You know, you can't not feel that vibe, right? You can't not... There's something about it that just transmits and it feels like it rubs off on you. Does that extend through the page? Does Jasmine Paolini have the proverbial cut through for you? No, I wouldn't say she does. Yeah, I think that's more of a

I think for people who are really engaged in tennis, she has that effect. She hasn't yet, I think, had that sort of wider cut through. Maybe if she'd won the Wimbledon final. In fact, I think that would have made a really big difference, had she won that.

And I'm sure this year, coming back to Wimbledon, people will be like, oh, great, yeah, Paulini, I remember her from last year. But I think that would have really kind of... thrust her into that kind of space that maybe she's not quite in uh yet but Yeah, I think she is someone, though, who, for people who follow the sport really closely, as you say, it's very hard not to be charmed and won over by her and find yourself rooting for.

You're officially one of us now, Charlie, and we're officially one of you, which is very exciting, by the way. But that does mean you now have to engage in the mixed chat. Have you been listening backstage? Yeah, I really like the mix. I really get on board with the wider predictions that I used to hate. I sometimes did that and I stopped. You're calling them off to your mom. Yeah, Johnny exempted himself.

I exempted it and took on a kind of consultancy role with my mum. It was like I'd retired. I was like, I don't want to be in the sort of the cut and thrust of it. But yes, I will happily take on. Except, you know, those are normally really highly paid. This was on a voluntary basis. But the mix, I love. I love the... the format of it. Okay, so who's in them?

I mean it's funny actually you sort of read my mind I was going to message you when you were talking a few weeks ago and you didn't mention Madison Keyes she was someone who I thought that just jumped out and I'm not saying necessarily I would put her in mind but I did think she was definitely worth a mention because I mean obviously as the kind of winner of the most recent Grand Slam I mean, the women's is such a weird one, with your definition of it wouldn't be a surprise.

given the way that you, you know, if you apply the logic of like, well, a cheek of a one again. massively opens it up. Yeah, unfortunately, Marketa von Drosheva really redefined surprise for everybody. That's the thing. And I think of Matt's amazing analogy of the dormant volcanoes. I mean, that's just so spot on. That said, realistically looking, you know, in the women's, I mean, Sabalenka, obviously. It's a huge favourite, I think, in my eyes. Goff has to be in it.

I mean, Paulini, yeah, you've got to say she's in it, having been last year's runner-up, coming in as the back of the big win. We certainly do, Charlie. Yeah. I mean, Triantek, of course, despite everything. Ah, she's in it. Andrava. Yeah, she would be my mate, so I wouldn't be hugely surprised. that would feel the sort of appropriate level of oh it's a bit of a shock I didn't know if it would necessarily be now but I wouldn't in the context of

The surprise WTA winners, I wouldn't be surprised. I think I would still be surprised despite this last week. So yeah, that would be about it. Men's Alcaraz clear favourite for you?

Yeah, I think he is. I mean, just listening to you guys talking there about the center aspect and what we take from This week, I do wonder if physically... There will just be a point where he has a match a bit like the Holgaruna match in Melbourne. but this time there might not be a broken net to save him. You know, where he just gets hot and bothered and it's going long and it's gritty and suddenly the fact that...

he did have that three-month ban, does come back to haunt him a little bit. I just wouldn't be surprised if he ran out of gas at some point. And then when that happens, we're all saying, oh, yeah, well, of course, you know, he had that long time out. And yes, he came back and played. a best of three tournament and was fine but this is a whole other conversation and even who knows if this was a factor but I think I'm right in saying the Tommy Paul match was the only back to back days he played

And it also coincided with by far his worst performance. So, I mean, who knows how big a fact that was. It's not like he exerted himself much the night before against Kasper Rude. But I would give... I'll cross the ad.

especially as he's won the last four and seems to have that head-to-head. I mean, it does give off a little bit the vibes of the 2008 Wimbledon men's when Nadal and Federer between them dropped a set until they got to the final, and the whole thing did feel... like it was just building up.

to that final, which was kind of great in a way. I remember even at the time, it was like, they're winning these matches so easily, but that's sort of just adding to this sense that, you know, they are just rushing headlong towards a final. But mix-wise, Those two, obviously. It's a small mix, I think. Zverev, yes. Djokovic, I mean...

Yeah. Again, I guess because if he did win it, you'd be like, of course, it's Novak Djokovic. This is what he does. He's currently in Geneva, Charlie. Yeah, I mean, rationally. It's certainly tough to make a case for him. Is he in Geneva? Why don't you all weigh in on this? Is he in Geneva because he thinks that... the best way to prepare for trying to win a 25th Grand Slam, or is he in Geneva to try and win a 100th title?

Oh, that's a good question. That is a really good question. That could well be it. And we still, look, I still haven't heard what the deal was with Ryan. You know, why didn't he play? It's something, something's gone on unless he was injured. Matt's got a theory. Do I? No, I think that a 25th major at this point is still more important to him than a 100th time.

I think he's going to want to get to 100 titles. But the window to win a major might have already closed. Might have done. He hasn't won one in a while. If it is still open, it's not going to be as open as long as the window to get 100th title, I suppose. So I still think he's... thinking mostly about majors. And there are so many factors against him, lack of form. Increased injury rate.

recent record over five sets against Sinner and Alcraz. Those are all the reasons why I'm not picking him to win this title. But he remains in my mix because if he wins the title, I will feel a lot of things. And one of them I don't think will be surprised. It's Novak Djokovic. He's a legacy mix member, in my opinion. He's just always in the mix. Like permanent membership. Does that mean Pete Sampras is in your mix? No, because he's retired. I do think that you can imagine the hindsight.

of him winning it and how you would fail. But the logic of where we are right now, it seems far-fetched, doesn't it? We had a conversation at the end of Wimbledon last year and there was discussion about whether he was in the mix for the Olympics. Yeah, exactly. I was thinking that. Whenever he does it, that's it. I've got such a short memory.

Of course he was going to do it. I mean, the 250, the Geneva thing is really interesting because at least there's But what I think is going to be really awkward is if he... the point at which he goes and plays Borstad or something, and it's like, well, clearly this is for no reason other than to go and try and win 100. And that feels a little bit desperate. It's always Borstad that catches strength. How does your dad get away with it? Guys, it's kitsch bill.

The Dominic team. They don't even have Dominic team anymore. Unless you're T.A.M. or Casper Road, you're not. going to go for those tournaments it would be so blindingly obvious and i really don't think you know he you want to win under the title because it's like yeah i just keep winning titles not because i'm it's a bit uncool isn't it you don't want to be sort of showing that you care about that that's just a kind of

by-product of winning so many. But on Caspar Rude, I don't know if I would put him in my mix because I think I would still be really surprised just because I feel like so much would have to go his way in the sense that he's even said in Madrid, we spoke to him and he said, there are a lot of players now who, if they have a good day, can kind of just blast me off the court.

And for him to avoid someone doing that for seven matches, including most likely one or both of Alcraz and Sinner, I just think I would still be really surprised, even though he is a three-time Grandstand finalist. Do you not feel the same way about Zverev? And is it hitting the panic button to enter Hamburg, take a wildcard into Hamburg? A little bit, but I just think he does have the more recent form for Grand Slam finals than Kasparudan. I think at least he has the capability, whether he...

whether mentally he does, but he does have more weaponry than, than Caspar Rood. Um, I, and I think it, I feel it could just open up for him in a way that I... I think he's got a bit more aura than Kasper Ruud as well. I do think that, although Rude had good results in play... I've got more aura than Caspar Rude, Charlie. Oh, compelling to Rude.

Yeah, I mean, because Kasper Rude, I am a huge fan of, I have to say. I will defend that guy to anyone. There's a difference in being a fan of and claiming he's got aura. I really like the guy. I would not say he's got aura. He hasn't got aura. No, he doesn't have aura. Maybe on the golf course.

Yeah, he's such a good, thoughtful talker. I love speaking to him, and I'm so pleased. It's funny, actually, me, Matt Futterman, and James Hansen, our editor, we, at the beginning of the year, I can't remember why we were talking about it, but we got on to, because I think it was just after Kasparud had gone out of the Australian Opener.

What's going on with him? Where's he going? We all predicted where he'd be at the end of the year. So I'm quite invested. I actually went low. I went the lowest. So partly I think because I, you know, when you predict something, you don't want to happen because I like him. I do want him to do well. I do fear, I do worry about it. I did anyway because it felt like he just kept, he just didn't look right after the French Open Paris. How low did you go?

I went, I think, 17 year-end ranking, which is low. Sorry, Charlie, grass is coming up. Grass is coming up. It's all to play for. I'm still not worried. I'm pretty confident. And he's got French Open semi points. just on the tournaments this week. So Zverev taking that wildcard into Hamburg, which is a 500, by the way. Sarindolo Riblev.

Tiafoe, Auger, Alias Sim are all there. Yannick Sinner had entered, I think, kind of as a backup in case he lost early in Rome and felt he needed the matches, but he has withdrawn Geneva. Of course, as all I know about Djokovic, but Taylor Fritz is actually the top seed there. And the best player in the world, Thomas Mahat. is in the draw and in terms of the WTA this week they have a 502

in Strasbourg. And we've already had round one matches today. Daniel Collins beats Saphir Kennan. As Matt mentioned earlier, that great victory from Raducanu over Daria Kazakina. Beatrice Hadadjmi has beaten Clara Towson. Barbara Krejcikova is back.

in Strasbourg this week confirmed she is a tennis player. But she has lost. She lost to Magdalen at 6-3, 6-3. And Jessica Begula, Emma Navarro, Elena Rabatkin and Paola Bedossa are the top... four seeds in Strasbourg Roland Garros qualifying I've already mentioned the love and love victory for Bianca Andreescu One down, nine to go. Also in the women's draw for qualifying, unseeded Tamara Zidanecek, French Open semi-finalist Tamara Zidanecek. What a sentence. Jung Shui. Sarah Irani. Matt?

In French, you wouldn't want to play her, would you? You would not want to play Zahra Arani in French Open qualifying. She's playing Eulen Niemeyer. I'd have a great offer on that server. I think you'd chip and charge off that server. She does like one point slam serves, doesn't she? Just get it in. And we did decide, actually, if one of us had to play the one-point slam, it would be David. He'd be the best to quit.

It's the chip in charge. Taylor Townsend, Victoria Boker. I saw that first hand in Melbourne. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, she's... Yeah. Petra Martic, they're all in the women's qualifying draw. And in the men's qualifying draw, the top seed is Borna Chorich. Bonne chari. Dan Evans is playing a fellow Brit in Round 1 Qualies. Marin Cilic is in French Open Qualies. Chris Eubanks, Tara Daniel, the other Sarundalo and tequila-fueled Adrian Manorino.

It's a fun time, French Open qualies. Matt, David and I are travelling to Paris on Wednesday. Charlie, when do you and Team Athletic arrive? I get in Friday morning. James is Thursday, and I think Matt may be Thursday as well. And do you have plans to do loitering with David? Or alongside David? It's not as bad as it sounds, Charlie. What an offer. Today was the deadline for Roland Garros pre-tournament media request.

so we had to submit our loitering requests today we didn't put loitering requests I presume you had to be the same Charlie can you give us a hint of what's in the pipeline

I did, yeah. I mean, we've got loads in the pipeline before, but anyway, the big thing, well, one of the big pieces I'm working on for around the tournament starting as a feature on drop shots. Having spoken to various players and coaches and analysts, got some good numbers for it as well on kind of how that shot's evolved. And I even spoke to David last week for the kind of...

historical angle on drop shots. You want to hear about the drop shot dragon? I want to hear about the drop shot dragon from the man who wrote drop shot dragon. There is literally no one else to go to to speak about the drop shot dragon. dragon. No, including the dropshot dragon himself. David said, I will know more about him than he will. It's true. Yeah, and I believe that.

Has Algorand brought back the drop shot? Is that the central question of your thesis? A little bit, yeah. And also, because Dave and I were talking about that, that when you had guys like Portas playing the drop shot, it was a bit of a novelty thing. And it wasn't altogether that serious. I mean, you know, and... Then we were talking, you know, Murray and Djokovic used it a lot. But it became a bit, and I remember, obviously, there was the Brad Gilbert.

not liking it but I remember generally it was such a thing with Murray at the French Open especially like stop using the drop shot for goodness sake as if it was this sort of like check out manoeuvre and it was talked about that a lot as I remember But it was so results, folks, it was one of those things where if you used it and lost the point, it was kind of like, why are you doing that? You're checking out.

And it used to be seen as a bit of a defensive thing. And then obviously Alcaraz has come along. And the way he hits, you know, hitting it like an inside out forehand drop shot or inside in, like he has added so much variety to the shot. And then you've got someone like Mazzetti doing it.

And talking to coaches and people involved, they're like, yeah, you've got to now teach this shot. You've got to have it. It's not just like a nice to have. And you've seen Sinner adding it to his game. So I think he has kind of, he's made it cool and sexy. are you going to ask Alexander Zverev why he hasn't added it to his

Yeah, and it does sort of show up, doesn't it? I mean, you look really one-paced kind of without it. I mean, it's a bit what you... When volleying was being... When it was still... when you'd got beyond people actually doing it regularly, but it was a kind of...

Some people were doing it kind of infrequently. It was talked about, you've got to add volleys to your game. You know, you need to have that variety. Now I feel like we barely even talk about volleys, but Dropshot is kind of in that space of like a... you do sort of need to be able to do it, otherwise you can become incredibly predictable. And there's no deterrent, really. I mean, you talked about this in relation to, you know, Zverev's whinging about Mazzetti. It's kind of like, well...

You can just stand miles behind the baseline if there's no threat of a drop shot. And that's what's so good and useful and effective about having it. You kind of need to respect it. And then you put players in two minds. It was fundamental to Federer winning the French show. the drop shot particularly particularly the forehand drop shot he developed that I think he developed it partly as a counter to...

They used it against Nadal really well in that Madrid final they played in 09. But then he didn't end up playing Nadal at the French Open because Nadal lost. But actually it was a really effective weapon against the two guys he did have to play at the end in Del Potro and Sert. big baseline hitters who maybe weren't that comfortable moving forward. If you watch those matches back, which obviously have done, there's loads of Federer forehand drop shots. But he didn't use to play it.

Very early, you know, in the sort of 05, 06, 07, he was a bit more stubborn from the baseline. Federer against Nadal, he knew he needed to expand his game. And, you know, I think... stubbornness is kind of what we're talking about there with Zverev and Sinner has developed a drop shot as well it's not as incredible as Alcaraz is but it's been a really really good tool He could do it on clay as well. He didn't have to do it loads, but he could. It just gave him that bit more aura.

And its effect is amplified. If you've got the power and the finesse of the drop shot, that's the secret sauce, isn't it? I mean, that's the Alcaraz secret sauce. You push them back and then you pull their pants down.

Exactly. Just out of interest, what other players would David be your go-to contact for? To gather info on. Lots. To get sort of background and info. I mean, Sam Prost. Albert Portas. Even he's a bitch. The big three. Everyone from the 90s. Yeah, everyone as a player. I mean. Yeah, it would be in that, particularly in that spot where those guys, I mean, Sampras I watched a fair amount of, I was,

I caught, like, the end of his career, or the sort of middle, the second half, maybe, but all the ones I missed live. Are we talking about your Rioses? I think I did speak to David back in the day about Marcelo Rios just because I was doing something on kind of like

the most ill-fated spells at world number one. I was actually hooked on poor Andy Murray's spell as world number one, which didn't go so well for him. And then I was talking to David about my son at Rios and he told, was it Sports Illustrated?

The most hated man in sport or something. The most hated man in tennis. Front page when he was world number one. And then he fired Larry Stefanko when he was world number one. And he said he wanted to go in a different direction. And Larry Stefanko said, well... Any direction you can go from here, pal, is down. And that's what he did. Horrible man. My son of a house. Horrible. Yeah so he would be right in that sweet spot.

If you're doing a piece about tall people, I mean, the BBC, David tends to be their go-to for that. The resources that are suddenly at the athletics disposal is... It's extraordinary. It's not three years ago.

um folks we have a very very exciting three weeks ahead We travel to Paris on Wednesday. We are on, well, we have already started Best Foot Forward with our new partnership with The Athletic, which is incredibly exciting. We are daily from Paris. from thursday draw day matt's picked out his outfit uh then we of course have media day on friday then we have another preview show coming your way on saturday and then of course the tournament starts on Sunday and will be daily for 15 days.

of live tennis from that point onwards. If you cannot wait until Thursday, we have a very special Tennis Relived edition coming your way tomorrow exclusively for friends. of the tennis podcast and Vicky has prepared the most incredible trailer to give you a taste of it. Here it is. no matter how proud and confident you might feel. And I was, believe me. Whenever you walked onto a court with Cram, it was difficult not to feel that you were walking in his shadow. Gottfried von Cram was gay.

difficulties, to put it mildly, with the Nazi regime which attempted to exploit his appearance. and talent. of Aryan supremacy. have a swastika on them. His close friend and partner had been thrown out of tennis and all around him his friends who were Jewish or otherwise despised by Nazis were disappearing. the Nazis began keeping afile And there's this feeling that Von Kram felt like, oh, the Davis Cup home to Germany would guarantee his safety.

and he knew it two gestapo agents knocked on the door and took him away in their black Budge rallied a group of 25 sports figures in California to sign an open letter to the German government demanding Kram's immediate relief. They called him the ideal sportsman, a perfect gentleman. and decency personified. chamber music with white balls was how 1940s.

His shots came just a few centimetres above the net and with such length like magic. Even then, he could open the court, make it wider and wider. as wide as the world itself. Thank you to Getty Images for the archive photos that you saw in that promo. If you are watching with us on YouTube, and thank you so much to Vicky for that.

that trailer it was an incredible show and it deserved something that beautiful to promote it and Matt well, this is a bit of a hospital pass of a question to you, Matt, but it was just incredible work from you to put that show together and it's very special. Thank you. I've been working on it for many weeks. It's an extraordinary story. It really, really is. It goes way beyond tennis. It's an intersection of tennis and history. And yeah, it was a pleasure to tell that story.

I was going to say, it sounds like tennis podcast meets. The rest is history. That is what we go for with tennis freely.

absolutely yeah the ultimate compliment Charlie thank you that'll be going up tomorrow midday Tuesday for Friends of the Tennis Podcast if you'd like to become a friend the link to do so is in our show notes daily from Thursday from Paris if you're going to Paris and you see us or you drop us a message on Instagram if you're going to be there we do try and say hello to as many of you as possible and if you're wearing merch then

It's all the more easy to spot you. David of course is always easy to spot. Matt and I less so, but we do tend to travel as a pack. So there you go. We'd love to see as many of you as possible. As you can tell, we are very, very, very pumped for the second Grand Slam of the season and generally for the... For the future of the tennis podcast, this is a very exciting time for us. So, yeah, thank you to everybody that listens and supports us and, yeah, is going to come on this.

this hashtag journey with us.

We have a mascot for this episode. That mascot is Bashir, the returning Bashir. This is perfect. Wasn't Bashir a French Open mascot last year? I recognise those blue eyes. Bashir is owned by Elise yes it's all coming back to me uh Bashir had the incredible chance to be the French Open mascot in 2024 says Elise and even luckier for him Catherine's mum was kind enough to draw him and he now has a beautiful portrait that is why I remember those blue blue eyes

A beautiful portrait, as regal as a king. I think my mum is with us live in the chat tonight. Hello, mum. It was a beautiful portrait. Bashir is a six-year-old male and is a rescue. He's the best pet companion one could have and we love him very much. So do we, Elise. He's incredible. So thank you very much. Those blue eyes are gazing. into my soul um hello to our mascots phoebe maizey and roger hello to our top folks and executive producers greg chris and jeff

And Charlie, you're going to join us for shout-outs now. Feel free to chip in. Wow, it put me on the spot. Yeah. I mean, we're always on the spot. Have you got a tennis Josephine? Because we have Josephine Maybom from Lausanne, Switzerland. Charlie's face. Josephine. In fact, Josephine says, will Catherine sing the Josephine song once again? No. No one needs that.

I think that implies that we struggled last time to come up with Josephine and Catherine sang a song. If I'm singing, Matt, it means that we struggled. Sorry Josephine, we'll let you down again but hey, maybe next year. Well, Josephine, it does mean we'll probably get a message from Pam overnight. Can we resort to a Joe? A Joe Jury? Joe Conta, I was thinking. Joe Conta. Is Joe Jury a Josephine? Who can say? There's a Josefina, I think. Josefina Estafez.

Are you Googling, Charlie? No, I was checking. I mean, yes, I was checking. Was my instinct correct? Because I didn't want to say the name of a made-up player. She is a player. She's a 17-year-old player. Several people in the chat are producing a Josephine Crikshank from the 1930s from the US. They are Googling, I would suspect. Yes, but it's not us cheating. So in extremis, we'll accept that. Josephine, thank you very much and sorry for not singing. Well, you're probably grateful.

We've also got a shout-out from Amelia. And it's a Christmas present for her sister, co-fan, and previous intro of the pod, Henrietta Bradshaw. Happy Christmas, Henrietta! And they are in God all means. Not far from these parts. A bit closer to you than to me, Matt, but, you know, down the O3. Amelia Island used to have a tennis tournament. Wow. Next level. Irina Sabalenka was champion there, wasn't she? I have no idea. But I've done my bit.

and well Amelia says we met Matt at the Wimbledon History Conference And chatted about a men's backhand list. And they say, they claim, that I was trying to steer them towards Holga Runa. And they were having none of it. I don't remember that, but He does have a nice backhand. I've become more against the men's backhand list over the past couple of years, so I can believe my past self would maybe have given in, but now I would stand firm and not even offer you Hogaruna.

I think it was New Haven that Irina Sabalenka won in 2018, and I think I've got my now-defunct WTA event soon. Cheers. But there you go. People in the chat are coming up with Henrietta Horncastle, an English tennis player. So there you go. Thank goodness for the live chat and thank goodness for you, Henrietta. Hello and thank you and happy Christmas. What a lovely gift. And finally, we have Heather Rule Day from Seattle. Oh, Seattle! Seattle, home of the Seahawks.

Are you going to have a good season, David? They're going to have a great season. The draft has happened. We're very happy with it. We've got loads of players. We've traded in our quarterback. I wasn't too happy initially, but now I'm getting on board because I've watched some of those montages where they look like world beaters, and Sam Donald's going to rule the world.

And then the reality will kick in when we're at the US Open and they lose and then I'm in a bad mood. But anyway, Heather, you and me, we're both going to be sharing them all. Okay, here's hoping Heather is a Seahawks fan. There's a Heather link, obviously Heather Watson, and the first time I appeared on the tennis podcast was Wimbledon 2015, the first Friday, when Heather Watson so nearly beat Serena Williams, and we were reflecting on that.

talking about what might have been and how it was the loudest we'd ever heard sent to court

I definitely think there's a show in... This is a... This isn't the avenue to be taking us down an hour and 20 minutes into a podcast. Matt threw out the idea of a legacy mix an hour into a podcast, so I do think there's a show... Hang on, I don't know if I had a Watson in a legacy mix. Not in any kind of mix. I'm really curious to see where this has gone. I think there's a show in players who are most famous for almost doing a thing. Very good. But not doing the thing.

Because that is what Heather Watson is most famous. Yeah. Barry Cowan, Pete Sampere. Quite a lot of British players, actually. I remember that well. And Andrew Castle went for a fifth set against Mats Valanda. Put his name on the... What was it? Chris Bailey against Goran Imanisovic. That was the one I was going to say, yeah, Chris Bailey.

See, I told you it was a show. This is good stuff. While we've been talking about rubbish players from the 90s, Heather has popped up in the chat to say she knows nothing about the Seahawks. But what I know about Heather is that Heather has never seen live tennis but is going to Roland Garros for her first ever Which is... Heather, that is awesome. Please make sure you say hi. If you want to. You might not want to. But if you want to, we'd love to say hello.

folks this has been a very fun show Charlie thank you so much for your time and your willingness to engage in the mix much appreciated My pleasure. We'll see you Friday in the area. We'll see you there, yes, as we loiter around... He's getting on board with this. I've got a wingman. Brilliant. It's a good sport. Folks, it's exciting times for the tennis podcast. We are daily from Thursday. We're traveling to Paris.

On Wednesday we are now part of the Athletic Podcast Network and we are thrilled to be just that. Thank you very much for listening. Thank you for joining us live if you did and we'll speak. It's clay time on TNT Sports and there's a special excitement that comes with Roland Garros. It feels as though it's serving up the start of summer. Matt, do you have any particular favourite Roland Garros memories?

I do. And they involve Rafael Nadal. Of course, we're going to miss him this year. But every year, I love the way he was introduced onto court as a 12, 13 and eventually 14 time champion. David, officially king of the 90s. I bet your favourite memories from that decade. Absolutely. I go back to 1992 and one of the all-time great finals between Steffi Graf and Monica Seles and it went all the way and I hope we get more of the same this time.

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