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Hello and welcome to the Tennis Podcast. It is Friday the 16th of May. Rome is reaching its... The men's semi-finals will be played later today. The women's final will be played tomorrow, Saturday. And the men's final will be played on Sunday. This pod was supposed to be recorded.
late last night and David Law wasn't supposed to be on it at all except via the medium of two excellent voice notes which have hit the cutting room floor and will never be heard because enter Coco Gauff and Zheng Jinwen. And a match that was brilliantly described on a WhatsApp chat that we're all in last night as a drunken bar fight.
In the end, an incredibly entertaining drunken bar fight. The upshot of that is that we're now recording at 8am the next morning. First time I think I've ever done podcast pre-coffee although I am rapidly consuming as we go so if I'm a bit quiet for the first 10 minutes you'll know why but the better upshot is that we get real life David Law hello David
I would hope most people might think that anyway, but I mean, Matt seems quite into the voice note that I did while I was walking around the local park with the birds singing in the background. So sorry, Matt, you've got the real thing now. They were great voice notes. One of them was also explicit. That was fun. I'll reprise it, don't worry. To be clear, I'm thrilled you're here. I think especially if we're doing an 8am pod like David's the best of us.
Yes, we've always suspected David would hold an 8am pod together and I would say the first two minutes of this are proving. I'll get better, folks. My voice will get chirpier. I put an extra shot in my coffee. It's all going to be fine. We should start, shouldn't we, with Coco Goff's incredible drunken bar fight win over Zheng Chen Wen. 764676 in over three and a half hours her celebration was
was incredible. It closely resembled Billie Jean's celebration when I said bedtime, pretty much as soon as match point ended. Look, folks. I'm not going to lie to you. It was one of the worst tennis matches anyone's ever seen in terms of quality. It was hideous. But Matt, by the end... I was obsessed with it. I couldn't look away. I absolutely, except for the fact that I was
thinking we had to record a podcast after it and was stressing about how tired I was going to be. I absolutely loved it by the end. How about you? And there was this weird moment where right at the end of the match, they both started holding serve to love. And it was a bit like, why weren't you doing this three hours ago in a match that had, I don't know, I think maybe 19 breaks of serve in it, something like that.
But it did feel like the sense of occasion and the quality did sort of rise at the end and they were both fighting with everything that they had and that was compelling. We did have to get through 156 combined unforced errors to get to that point. 70 in one set. 70 in the first set. Unbelievable. A perfect 35 combined. Sorry, 35 each. Just absolutely crazy number. It was a benfire. It really was.
But what I find so interesting, and Laura Robson said it on the Sky coverage right at the end, she said that she never thought Coco Gauff was going to lose. And I didn't quite have the same level of faith as Laura, but I did have the same general feeling in that you don't want to end up in a match like that with Coco Gold. she will be more resilient than you. She will be able to put unforced errors behind her maybe better than you and just keep going.
And I did feel like there was a chance that Jeanne could find her level. go clear of Coco Goff, kind of as she did in the middle of that second set, or the start of that second set. She sort of started putting her game together, did Jung, and actually had a bit of an advantage over Goff, but there was never proper rhythm to the max, so it always felt like a scrap and a battle. I'm just backing Coho Gough all the way in those sorts of matches. She's so incredibly resilient.
and good at coming through those sorts of matches. And I think she was a little bit down on herself because she had been playing really well. in Rome. This level of performance, there was a lot of double faults again, particularly at key moments, came a little bit out of nowhere. I think she wasn't expecting this performance. She'd been more consistent with her game over the past few matches.
But she's so good at coming through it that even a match in which Zhang served for every single set, which is what happened here, Coco Gough is the one who ends up coming through it. Yeah, it was a memorable match. And by the end, it was really, really compelling. But I would be lying if I said that I enjoyed it all the way through. There was some extremely painful...
Yeah, look, I felt the same as Laura Robson. I didn't always feel 100% sure that Coco Gauff was going to win, but there was no point in the match where I wouldn't have given... the fairly heavy edge to Coco Gough because it was a mud wrestle that much and I'm never not backing Coco Gough in a mud wrestle. Never. She has a, and I mean this in the most complimentary possible way, she has an incredible way of... dragging opponents into a mud wrestle. If she's not playing well...
It somehow has the effect of quite often of making the opponent not play well as well. And then it's just a messy, drunken brawl. And I'm always going to back Coco Gough in that situation. I don't know whether it's something about her bald, you know, a kind of... A dodgy Coco Goff ball is hard to hit a winner off. I don't know, but I just always felt like, oh, this is the sort of match that Coco Goff...
want a U.S. Open with. She's comfortable in this kind of a situation. Her ability to ride the waves and put disappointment behind her i find absolutely mesmerizing what a superpower because it's not like she's not you know you can see her disappointment in the moment she is it's like for a split second she allows herself to be hard on her You know, she has a real sort of forlorn puppy expression sometimes. You know, her brows furrow.
I'm so disappointed in myself, that forehand. And then she just moves right on. There's such a humility about her brand of tennis that I think is absolutely incredible. She will play Jasmine Paolini. in the final tomorrow jasmine paulini the first italian woman to reach the final in rome since your gal matt sorry rani paulini's gal as well Yeah, absolutely. Everyone's gal. Sorry, Arani. And David, shh, Koko Gough, the favourite in that? Good question.
Good question. The thing is... I'm sending everybody up here to underestimate Jasmine Paolini. You're welcome. Yeah, and I'm not going to fall into that trap. I'm just going to sit back and drink coffee while...
While you two underestimate Jasmine Pauline and off you go. The thing with Coco Gauff is... is that she has she actually has a mode i think that when when it's not going well she realizes it quite quickly and actually goes into her other mode of right you're gonna have to beat me and I think it's her spirit and her movement and her control on shots she's great at absorbing but she's sort of
She just locks in and makes it incredibly difficult for you. And good luck to you if you can beat her. And Zhang nearly did it and she served for it. Paolini doesn't have Jung's weapons, but she also has probably a more secure game, and she can move with Goff to some degree. So I think it could be a really good final. I'm looking forward to it. I would back off.
But I'm intrigued. I think they've both come through matches like this now where it's not looked likely. I mean, I watched the Schneider against Paolini match and that looked for all the world. that Schneider was going to win that match. You know, how's she not going to win from where she got? And Paolini just digs their heels in, similarly to Goff in that way, and just says, come on then, I'm not done yet, let's keep going.
Drunken matches. That was a pretty drunken match as well. It was fantastic. Yeah, I think that has to be the second weirdest match of the week so far. I mean, there's still time for Rome to outdo itself. P.S. This has been a great Rome. I think I've really enjoyed it. Yeah, how did Diana Schneider lose that match? She led by Seton For Love and Jasmine Paolini. This was the quarterfinal. We will talk about Paolini's win over.
post-puke Peyton Stearns in a moment but seeing as you brought it up David yeah the quarterfinal Schneider's a set in for love and Paolini is as rattled and tantrum-y as I've ever seen her. I think, you know, she's the ultimate grown-up, isn't she? On the tennis court and off the tennis court. And she was really in a bad headspace mentally. You know, if I'm Schneider, I'm looking down the other end and I'm like, well, I've got you on the ropes. And then...
And then suddenly I realised rather than seemingly thinking that, Dana Schneider is crying and just... having her own independent meltdown. It's like she just sort of spontaneously combusted all by herself. in that match and yeah as you say David as soon as she sort of gave Jasmine Paolini the bit between her teeth Paolini you know just ran with it but I think that is a trauma-inducing match for Dana Schneider. I think that's a loss that you... that she's gonna carry with her a little bit.
I think as soon as Paolini won a game in that second set, and I think a big element in this matchup... The crowd really started backing Paolini. And I think that got... in the moment and then so later in the match she ended up goading and baiting them herself which just seems I really enjoyed it but it just seemed like the wrong thing to be doing I felt like she needed to narrow her focus rather than
rather than expand it to include the crowd. It felt to me like, do you know what you're doing here? Do you know the potential consequences? It seemed like an incredibly... naive and inexperienced thing. But yeah, as soon as Paolini won a game in that second set, I think I texted the group, this is a test.
because like one thing is establishing a lead and another thing is finishing a match off in those circumstances and then it was only about five minutes later where I texted the group oh she's fat It happened so quickly. And she could barely make a ball in that period. It was an absolutely horrible little run. I don't think we've talked about the split with Saffrona on the pod. I think that happened a week ago. I don't think we mentioned it on Monday. The quotes were very odd, weren't they? Yeah.
It sounds like it was saphenous. I'm a little unclear of the exact reason, but I don't think Schneider... wanted that partnership to end. And maybe Safner didn't either, but felt like it needed to for some reason. Schneider referenced Safner. feeling like she needed to go home to Barcelona. So there were definitely some slightly odd circumstances around that, and we probably should take that into mind. Keep that in mind for Schneider when talking about her.
and a performance like that because she just started to show some good form again you know she played pretty well in Madrid she had a good run here in Rome so it's not like split has necessarily sort of impacted her results negatively it's actually been her best period of the season the bit with Safina and just our But yeah, I can definitely feel like maybe there's something on her mind there with that split which she wasn't expecting or hoping. Yeah, it was. quite a match that one.
It's a shame. I was getting good vibes from that partnership and I was really into the, you know, both Saffin, bracket, A, Z. That didn't work, did it? Both Saffins. That didn't work either. You know what I mean? All of the Safin family. Being coaches. Yeah, being coaches. But now it's just Marit Safin sort of. quite unsuccessfully coaching andrew rubler for the moment anyway maybe they're on the brink of a breakthrough um
So victory for Paolini over Schneider in the quarterfinals. She then comes up against the seemingly immovable object of post-puke Peyton Stearns. the semi-final and for the first set of this match Matt it looks like post-Puke Sterns, was indeed the immovable object. Would it be too much to say that Sterns probably should have won that opening set and from that point on it might have been?
different match but but losing that opening set kind of moved the wall that she was inevitably going to run into at some point that bit close I definitely think she should have won that first set. She had set points at 5-3 and 5-4, but couldn't close. And then at 5-all, she had a very easy put-away to get out of that game. and missed it and ends up getting broken there and never really recovered to be honest but she was the one who came out
Playing the better tennis, for sure, the more assertive tennis. Paolini talked about how she felt slow and her feet weren't really moving and her ball wasn't having the same impact. Stearns was the one imposing herself on the match, but when she couldn't close... That first set, Paolini seemed to grow into the match. And she's done that a little bit this week. Paolini had a tight first set and then really sort of loosened up and freed up in the second.
and ended up coming through more convincingly. And yeah, what a moment for Paolini. Italian tennis as well. Obviously, we're going to talk about the men's tournament, but there's two Italians in the semifinals there. We've got Paolini in the final. I think Paolini and Irani are still in the doubles. It does feel like... Rome and, well, it feels like Italian tennis has been the force in the sport.
the past few years the way they've done well at the Billie Jean King Cup and Davis Cup as well and it just has all come together for them at their home tournament here in Rome Yeah, like I'm really pleased with Paolini because it's hard to imagine ways that you could sort of top last season. Like obviously winning a Grand Sam title would be one.
But actually getting a moment like this in Rome at your home tournament feels like something that she hadn't done before, which is maybe not quite the same level of achievement as reaching those back-to-back grandstand finals or not. but certainly like vibes wise it's just been it's just been it's felt like last year sort of rekindled in that sense but at home this time and and that's been really really nice but I do feel like we need to give... Peyton Stan's hair.
You can say post-puke, Matt. Yeah, well, it was pre, it was during, and it was post-puke. Like, all of the Sternses this week were just incredibly, incredibly impressive. One of the most crazy runs that has ever been to the latter stage of a tournament. The first WTA player ever to win three deciding set tie breaks in a row. And what I found remarkable about that is that that's the kind of stat that just...
You know, you look at that and you think, God, that person must be great in the biggest, toughest. to come through like that. And she was, but she was also doing a lot of traditional Peyton Stearns things, which was not closing matches and getting tight in big moments. And that was why those matches kind of ended up in those.
She was out playing Svitolina for a set and a half and suddenly it ends up in a third set and she's cramping and she's got a leg problem and I'm thinking, oh, Svitolina's got her here. But then she just powers through that third set. She came up with the most extraordinary holds of serve against Osaka down the stretch in the third set. Just gutsy tennis on big points, hitting winners.
As Osaka's coming at her. But equally it felt like maybe she'd let Osaka back into that one. So you had this conflicting thing going on. Which was Peyton Stearns being simultaneously the toughest. person you've ever seen on a tennis court but also Sometimes letting it slip in the big moments. And that has been a Peyton Stearns theme over the years. She lost a lot of tight matches. from those sorts of winning positions. I always thought the coaching team that she had...
was kind of increasing the pressure on her in the big moments. She's got a new team now. She started working with Blaz Kavcic in Madrid and that's paid off. seemingly straight away and she's so she's sort of such a great athlete and such a great competitor and she hits the ball differently to a lot of the WTA players a lot heavier ball A lot more spin on.
She's got a forehand dominated game rather than a backhand dominated game like a lot of the women have, which makes her stand out and makes her an interesting... prospect and when it comes together it's a really really great game and yeah I just loved loved watching her this week come through those tight moments because she has so often lost
But I do think it probably caught up with her a bit in the end against Paolini, as you said. Is she the new Jennifer Brady? A middling American having a good one during a pandemic, David. We're not in a pandemic. I mean like I think
I think there are some similarities. In David's defence, folks, that was uttered after Brady let... david down in quite a spectacular way in a prediction situation it was yeah but she did that that you did in so doing introduced me to clara tass and so you know every cloud um but
I think there are some similarities about Stearns and Brady. I think Brady has a more expansive game. I like Stearns' game, but I don't necessarily think it... I don't personally think it is going to get to a Grand Slam final, the way that Brady... Our friend in the live chat on one of our shows recently seemed absolutely convinced that Peyton Stearns was going to win Roland Garros this year and just kept on saying it over and over and we laughed about it and then suddenly this run starts.
Blimey, this person knows what they're talking about. Anyway, I just think she makes for good. to watch good matches she's somebody I think if you've got a ticket at a Grand Slam you go and watch one of her matches on an outside court you're going to get action you're going to get noise you're going to get passion she's got a bit of Danielle Collins in her hasn't she that street fighter it's great fun energy yeah so yeah I do think she's I do think she's good and I think she's going to maximize
But I don't know what her, my sense is her ceiling is not that much higher than where we are now. But maybe I'm wrong. I mean, I think Jennifer Brady did surprise me that she did as well as she did. Good on him. Before we move on, we should talk about Jung Chin Wen finally getting... a victory over Irina Sabalenka at the seventh time of asking in her quarterfinal. This match was the subject of one of the Lost Law voice notes.
David, I'm going to hand to you to try and recapture the magic of that voice note live on air. It's a high bar. I enjoyed that voice note a lot. Pretend there are birds singing. And, um, No, because that's what was happening in the voice note. But look, it was a really good match to watch, really interesting. I watched all of it. I don't read too much into the result and the what does it mean.
conversation I don't think for Irina Sabalenka it means anything I think Irina Sabalenka was absolutely exhausted she was Catherine Whittaker having stayed up until midnight watching a match and then had to get up at 8am the next morning for this. You know, she was... 7.30. she was fed up and she was letting everybody know she was fed up including a person in the stand who gave her a hard time who she then told to shut the fuck up
And she got an immediate code violation from Maria Cicac, who said, no, Irina. It was all very good. And Irina sort of took that on the chin. But, you know, she just looked over. She just needed not to be in Rome. Not that she wasn't trying. She was trying her heart out because she's a born competitor. She cannot stand losing. But she's equally...
It's like my son when he really wants to stay up and watch the rest of this football match, but he also really needs to go to bed because he's getting fed up and irritable. And she needed to... She needs a break. And the thing is, and this is a real factor of these,
two-week Masters back-to-back events before a Grand Slam. You don't get a break. You don't get a mental break. You might have a quiet first week because you don't play till Saturday, but you're there, aren't you? You can't go away and...
put your feet up for a bit and have a couple of days off not in the same way you're in the city you're seeing everybody she looks like she just needs to get away from it all and you you get the time now i mean what what's she got a week and a half really and and and and she can just sort of settle into Paris and I still make her the favourite for Paris where we are right now.
For Xiong Chinwen, I do think it was significant. So it was simultaneously not significant for Sabalenka, but I think for Xiong, it's a mental block removed. Not completely legitimate because I don't think she beat the real Sabalenka. Wow. She did beat a version of her and in her mind she doesn't know it wasn't the real one because she's absolutely convinced she's beaten the real one. Right? She was down the other end of the court and she won all the points. I just think...
I've seen this before. I remember when, it's not quite at the same level maybe, but I remember when Federer beat Nadal in Hamburg all those years ago. And it felt like this huge moment. He's finally beating him on class. But that wasn't the real Nadal. And then you get him out on Roland Garros' clay and he's a completely different beast. And I just think Sabalenka with a bit of rest behind her, you'll probably end up settling back into the similar rhythms of those two matches again.
This was their first meeting on clay, just to present a counter to that. With the Federer-Nadal thing, we had plenty of evidence of what that match-up looked like on clay with the real Nadal. And Zhang is good on clay. I mean, I think maybe it's her best surface. I think she really moves well on it, and she has a bit more time, and I think it's probably Savalinka's worst surface. I would still, if they played each other in two weeks time, I'd still be back in Sabalenka, wouldn't you?
I absolutely would, but I still think it's pretty massive for Zheng Chen. She had a massive match-up problem with Irina Sabalenka and still has a match-up problem with Irina Sabalenka. We were asked about one-sided... WTA match-ups in one of our Friends Q&A shows the other day and which we thought were most likely to turn around.
And Sabalenka Jung Chin Wen wasn't one of those that any of us thought was likely to turn around any time soon. Matt looks like he has something to say, despite the fact that he was at a Bruce Springsteen concert during this. Do you want to talk about Bruce, Matt? Because that's fine. I mean I will talk about that phenomenal concert with anyone who wants to listen but actually what I was going to say is and this might be an annoying thing to do but
when you've been talking about this, do you know what I've been thinking about? I've been thinking about Gottfried von Kram and Don Boe. As a little teaser for our Roland Garros Relive, there was a little story, actually, that didn't make the final cut of that show, which we have already recorded. But it's come to mind thinking about this. Don Buggs and Gottfried von Kram played a dead rubber in the Davis Cup in 1935. And Gottfried von Kram had always got the better of Don Buggs.
But Budge won that dead rubber match. And he said afterwards. It was he who opened the door for my hope. I had no faith at all that I could beat him. But once you've beaten someone, no matter how tainted the win, it's a great deal easier to accomplish the next time. A match may be meaningless in one context, but quite significant in others. And I feel like that's exactly what we're talking about here. I think I come down on the same side as David, despite having not seen the match.
down to Badlands I feel like probably not that significant for Rina Sabalenka because as exactly as you've described kind of at the end of her energy levels for this little run into the French Open. And she's going to be a different person when it really, really counts in Paris. But I do feel like it's a boost for Zhang Xinwen.
maybe in that matchup later down the line, maybe just generally for her confidence, just to get that monkey off your back and get a win, I think can be significant for her. So it's one of those where two things can be true at once. That's apparently been the case since all the way back in 1935 with Gottfried von Kram and Don Buggs. So I thought that was... Is it too late for us to change our British podcast awards entry to include that moment from... Matt Roberts. That felt award winning to me.
What a way to end part one. Well, actually, let's end part one with a soon-to-be-out-of-date prediction. Who's going to win that final? Gough or Paolini? Oh, no, the dreaded underestimating Jasmine Paolini section, which we seem to get to on every podcast, but I am going to do it, and I am going to pick Coco Gauff to win. What I think is interesting is that... Goff maybe feels like the player above all who is most benefiting from Igor Shvante. drop in form and I know that she's started
started winning matches against Sigurdsson. She has changed the narrative head-to-head a little bit. But if you look at the last few clay court seasons, she's lost a lot of big matches. to Igor Sviantek. Igor Sviantek to me is the exception to what you said earlier, Catherine, about how
When Goff is playing badly, she can sometimes drag an opponent down with her, maybe, and turn it into a scrap. She hasn't been able to do that against Igor Shfiontek on the clay. When they've met, if Goff hasn't been at her best, Shfiontek has just beat... And pretty easily often as well. And I feel like even if.
Even if Goff plays like she did against Junqin Wen, against Jasmine Paolini, she'll be able to lean on all those things we've just talked about and come through it. But I actually don't think she will. I don't know. I think her form has generally been a little bit better. So I think it will be a good match and I think Goff will win it. But... David, do you want to put a nail in the Jasmine Paolini coffin? I would go for Goff as well. That's it for part one. We'll be back in part two.
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of course, plays Nathan Shelley in Ted Lasso. Nick, welcome to It's My Party. Great to have you here. Genuinely, that could be like an 80-year-old gay man's invite list. I love it. And stop killing it. Darren Brown, I'm Trillow Drummer and Catherine O'Hara. Join me, Catherine Bowhart, as I sit down with some very special guests to discuss their dream do in It's My Party. Just look for It's My Party on Amazon Music, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you choose to listen.
Welcome back to part two, I have re-caffeinated, we are rocking, we are rolling, we're ready to talk about the ATP in Rome where the semi-finals will be later on today. Lorenzo Mazzetti. against Carlos Alcaraz and Yannick Sinner against Tommy Paul. And I feel like Yannick Sinner is where we need to start with this section of the show. what he is widely becoming known as, because despite however much you try to make Fox happen, Yannick, other nicknames just...
have a force of their own. And the new one is post-Pope Sinner. Not me, David. It's the internet. But I do like it. When will be the next podcast when we don't mention the Pope or when I don't mention the Pope? So many more references to the Catholic Church than I would expect from me. Anyway. Post-Pope Sinner absolutely destroyed. Are you going to laugh every time I say that, David?
Do you need to just have a moment to get it out of your system? No, I'm fine. I'm fine. Crack on. Post-Pope Sinner destroyed the Madrid's champion Kasparud. Six love, six one. And it was even less close than that school line made it seem. It took Kasparud nine games to hit a winner. The first set of this match from Yannick Senna was absolutely breathtaking.
Personally, I put a tiny asterisk next to the second set because I think Kasparud had waved the white flag. He was in inviting sympathetic applause from the crowd territory. Yeah, I mean, look, I get it. He was embarrassed. It was embarrassing for a player of his stature to be on the receiving end of that. He had waved the white flag in that second set and therefore... You know, I just put that asterisk next to that second set. But the first set was as sublime a set of tennises.
you'll ever see and look the facts are, Matt, it came hot on the heels of meeting the new Pope. Yep. What was that conversation that they had when they were both holding tennis rackets? Well, we know the Pope is an Alcaraz guy. So maybe... I don't know. Do we know that? Yeah, he's done some tweeting about Carlos Alcaraz in the past. I'm not sure you're allowed to continue tweeting if you're the Pope. Pre-Pope. Pre-being Pope. That still doesn't feel like a thing that Cardinals are doing.
He was very active on Twitter. He was tweeting about Taylor Swift. Big fan of the Tortures Poets Department. I know, but... I don't know. I'm not. Look, I agree, but I suspect that switch account is now defunct. Yeah. Anyway. Anyway, he's blessed Yannick Sinner. And, I mean... Do you think other tennis players are now clamouring to meet the Pope? I mean, give it a try. Because, I mean, that was breathtaking from Sinner. Like, absolutely astonishingly good. I think that's harsh.
Like, I do. Like, I don't... Me being harsh on Casper Rude. I think maybe at the... Let it never be said. Maybe at the very end, but... I certainly wouldn't say the whole of the second set he had waved a white flag. No, he hadn't waved a white flag at the start, but I... I don't know. I didn't see much fang. I think once it went to a double break in the second set, and I think then at that point, clearly it was over, and he knew it.
But Sinner had done the work, he'd absolutely broken him with the most astonishingly good performance. Like, you cannot hit a tennis ball clean. In Matt Fatterman's article in The Athletic, he cited the site tennis. measures shot performance and all that kind of thing and this was this was the performance of the year on their metrics and it was four tenths of a point better than anyone else
And that just sort of feels like such a Yannick Sinner thing. He's come back and he's just reminded everyone of the level. that he has. And actually, before this match, if we'd done this pod yesterday morning, I might have said, oh, I'm a bit worried about Sinner in terms of, he hadn't been clinical.
That's exactly what he hadn't been. He'd built leads in sets and let opponents back in. He did it against Jesper de Jong and against Surundalo. The Surundalo match was quite error-strewn from both of them. And actually, I probably would have said, I wonder what meeting the Pope and attending the Italian football final will have done to his reserves and energy levels to come back the next day. But actually, it turns out that all it did was turn him one of the best performers.
he's ever had it was it was extraordinary and it was the exact opposite of the match that followed like you had You had the two opposite ends. You had a contest, an incredible fight, compelling drama between Jung and Goff, and I enjoyed that element of it. The tennis, I didn't enjoy quite.
the rude cinema match which which started the night session there was no contest absolutely none at all and i know that if if what you're looking for in sport is that back and forth and that head-to-head and drama then this match was not for you but Sometimes it's nice to just appreciate the sport being played kind of as well as it can be. A perfectly calibrated performance from Sinner. Everything was worth it. It was kind of a joy to watch him in that moment.
Yeah, Tommy Paul must be ringing up. Please, please play a bit worse against me because I don't fancy a love and one defeat and that's what will happen if Sinner plays like that again. It was a sort of performance, David, that had me thinking about the calendar slide. I was watching that going, oh, well, he's obviously going to do the calendar slam, having served a doping ban in the middle of it. And that's going to be the most extraordinary thing we've ever done.
You wouldn't catch me saying things like that. We'll let you know in September if that ends up happening. But I don't see... I mean, who's going to beat him? I know, I know, it's match-ups, et cetera, et cetera. But it was absolutely unreal, and it was the sort of performance that will send shockwaves, I think, around the locker room. Yeah, I think so. I do hope we get him again. I really do. I hope we get it again in a few weeks' time, really, because
Well, I've always loved their rivalry, and Sin has got better. That's the interesting thing, and I think that Alcraz looks quite fresh. having Midrinov has done him and the world are good and I think he's not as reliable as Sinner Sinner's so much more reliable generally I think he is as a character really that's just more his name
But I do find it extraordinary that he's basically needed, what, three matches to suddenly find top form. I mean, that is amazing. To not have... stiffness and aches and pains or at least doesn't look like he does after all this time without having played matches that i don't know how he does that um That being said, this one might have just been a great night. He might not reproduce that straight away. I think back to when Federer beat Thomas Burdick that time after he came back from his knees.
Australian Open and that was the moment that you just went oh my god he could win the whole thing like if he's playing like that then in the next round he played I think Kane and Shakuri and it was five sets and it was really scrappy And he got through. But I don't necessarily think that Senna will just keep doing that. But I'm surprised that he's reached this level this quickly. I wasn't.
and uh and i think it maybe maybe it shows what In his mind, the burden lifting has... has meant and also just this this unusual freshness that he normally normally you've played all these masters 1000s and crossed time zones and you know you've probably got a bit of miles on the clock mentally and he just I know he's had his other stresses because this has not been a pleasant time, but he's suddenly looking like he's just had a few months off because that's exactly what he's just done.
Yeah, it's looking increasingly like his punishment for Armada was a three-month canister refuelling session and training block in between Grand Slams. Absolutely unreal. And all of it, David, on a court on which it's apparently, on a court with balls on which it's apparently impossible to hit winners. So says Alexander Zverev, who was beaten by Lorenzo Mazzetti.
en route to Mazzetti's semi-final that he'll play against Carlos Alcaraz later on today we'll come on to talk about Alcaraz in a moment but this match was was pretty fascinating as a match and made all the more so by Alexander Zverev's bizarre comments after it. Three answers in his press conference. It was a short press conference, but long enough for him to, in my view, completely rewrite the history of the match.
analyze it in a way that made absolutely no sense whatsoever he claimed He was asked about Mazzetti changing his tactics in the match and seizing the moment.
because Zverev had come out and dominated him for the first handful of games. He went to the net a lot. He covered the net really well, I felt. Zverev, he's got this... amazing wingspan you know he's so tall and he's long-armed and and he's flexible for a guy of his size and and so he actually is difficult to pass and he was he was causing Mazzetti trouble and he was bullying him around the court really It got closed.
Zverev led 6-5, 40-love and lost that set, which is extraordinary. So understandably, he's in a bad mood, right? He comes off the court, he's in a shocking mood. But where you get the idea, if you're him, that your opponent wins by waiting for your error... When actually that is basically what you do for a living. That is what Alexander Zverev does. He does hit the ball hard. He does have a big serve.
He goes into lockdown mode, and I can't just criticise that, because I've credited Coco Gough with her ability to do that, to win matches like that, when plan A isn't working well. But really, Alexander Zverev's plan A... is to hit the ball hard from the baseline and wait for you to break down, really. And when he's pressured, he goes more into his shell and he goes further back in the court. He's not trying to hurt you anymore. Whereas Lorenzo Mazzetti from 6-5-40-love-down...
Just decided to go. And he played every shot in the attacking book in my mind. He played a drop shot. He played a backhand down the line, followed by an inside-out forehand cross-court winner. He brought in Zverev and passed him cross-court with a forehand. He just did everything. He is just a magician of a player. when it's all working. It's one of the best sites in the sport.
And, sorry, that is not correct that he is somebody who waits for the opponents to just make an error. It's just that he has a heck of a lot of shock. That hurt you. And they don't always have to be hit hard. Sometimes they're hit. They're floated. Sometimes. They're three shot combinations in order to hit a winner. And maybe as far as just being grumpy, I would suggest that he's in utter denial at the moment.
He's being beaten by a lot of players right now. And the difference between him and what we saw from Yannick Sinner last night. I mean, they're playing a different sport right now. They managed to play a similar sport at the Australian Open. There was an incredibly graceless moment from Zverev mid-match, I think, at the start of the second set when Zverev stomps over to the chair for the sit-down and he starts.
vociferously complaining about the balls and in fact tosses one over to to the officials, not the umpire, but there seemed to be a row of officials, or people that certainly looked official anyway, sitting courtside, and he's complaining about how big the balls are and how fluffed up. they get and how it's impossible to hit a winner. And then he kind of... he gestures towards Mazzetti, he says, why do you think he's standing so far back in the court? It was, I mean, for one thing, it was...
incredibly dense thing to do as a competitor because, you know, what a gift to Lorenzo Mazzetti. He was, you know, he managed to... somehow holding himself back from rubbing his hands together in that moment but i'm sure that's what he was doing mentally um i mean p.s Alexander, Lorenzo Mazzetti is standing that far back in the court because A, he has the power and explosivity.
to hit through from that position in the court and B, perhaps more importantly, he's standing there because you don't have a drop shot. and he knows that he's not going to get caught out by standing there. You can't stand there against Carlos Alcaraz because he's going to push you back with his power and then he's going to drop shot you.
And even if he doesn't, you're constantly on edge and on alert that he might do that. Alexander Zverev's baseline game is utterly predictable. That's why people are able to... to stand that far back in the court. And he could have added a drop shot to his game, or at least tried. You know, he's not...
Look, he's not Tim Henman at the net, but he's got some touch and dexterity to work with. He could have developed a drop shot. Yannick Sinner's developed a drop shot. He didn't have much of one a few years. And the point about the balls... is just utterly maddening. And look, there may well be an issue with the ATP balls. I have a lot of sympathy with the argument that they are potentially causing injury.
to players or shortening career spans or generally making the likelihood of injury across the board more likely. but essentially complaining about the balls that the ATP are using not being helpful to your game. is utterly ludicrous which is what he's doing right because Other players can hit winners with those balls, Alexander. It's you that can't. And that is a you problem. So, yeah, I just, I mean, his behaviour during the match and after it, just utterly, utterly delusional.
And the delusion of it all, Matt, is an interesting one, isn't it? Because I think tennis players and athletes have to have a certain degree or type of... delusion to succeed. I was watching a social clip that I think the LTA put out of Jack Draper talking the other day about the... incredibly challenging time he had during the pandemic he said you know really went through some stuff mentally during that period and he described the way he worked through that as
I learned to create my own reality. He said, I learned to, you know. convince myself that things were going well when they weren't or you know It creates confidence out of nowhere, even when all evidence is suggesting you're playing like dog shit. Somehow you've got to convince yourself that you've got a chance in these matches.
And I think that's an important ingredient to be a professional athlete. So where does healthy delusion end and Alexander Zverev begin? Look, I don't know the answer. I don't think it's a... it's necessarily a scientific formula but I think the key The key factor here is the inability to take accountability. That's what Alexander Zverev exhibits. I think you can have the healthy delusion while still...
being able to take accountability for your shortcomings and failings and use them as fuel. Well, Alexander Zverev is in total denial about his... his shortcomings and failings, at least publicly. Maybe it's all bravado and internally he's in more turmoil and crisis than he's letting on. Who knows?
The only time I... heard Alexander Zverev sort of speak on this kind of subject and I've thought wow he's realized he's got it was the back end the last year remember when he was he was actually in really good form but he was he was going out after matches and he was still And he was asked about that and he said, I know I need to be more aggressive against Sinner and Alcaraz.
And I thought, OK, that feels like a bit of a moment, a bit of a realisation that, yeah, he's not just losing grandstand finals because of the... Like he'd said before, there are actual reasons why he's lost those big matches against the best players. So, you know, he then came out this season and I thought, well, let's see if he starts implementing that. And, you know, the first chance he got.
in that Australian Open final against Yannick Sinner. He didn't play more aggressive. He did retreat. The old habits were there. I think he's incapable of doing it. I really do. I think he's... He's maybe realised a little bit in the past that he needs to do it, but he's incapable of doing it. And rather than sort of facing up to that, he builds these alternatives. Reality?
be it the umpire or the Bulls or the negative approach of his opponent, which actually wasn't negative at all and was actually some of the most dazzling tennis that you can possibly play, as Lorenzo Mazzetti did.
Yeah, until that element changes, I continue to see him as... as a potential threat to win the Grand Sam tournaments, particularly if it's one of those tournaments where the big players... go out early or have a shocker but I don't think he's beating the very best players bringing their best game in the biggest matches
because he's not imposing himself. And there's increasingly a number of players who can outplay him and keep it together in the big moments. There's always been a lot of players that can outplay. But those haven't necessarily also been the ones who can finish the matches off. Well, Mazzetti did. Mazzetti has... grown some fangs in this clay court season we talked about how he feels a bit more indestructible after that Monte Carlo run coming back from losing positions so on
We're seeing the fruits of that in performances like this. These players are... better more expansive games than Zverev and they're now able to sort of keep it together in these big moments as well so until that changes the only real way I see Zverev ultimately winning a Grand Slam would be The others lose and he's there to pick up the piece.
which is still possible, but then you build in the performance that Yannick Sinner gives, and you think, well, how is he going to lose early? Yannick Sinner is going to be there, and Zverev is probably going to have to beat him. And as David said, they're just at different levels right now, different levels. And yeah, I think he's, I think consciously or not, he's maybe real. coming up with these absolutely insane, deluded tapes.
But Mazzetti was magnificent. I do also want that to be the takeaway from the match. He was incredible. the semis at least at all three of the really big Masters 1000 seeding into the French Open. That's an impressive level of consistency of performance now from Mazzetti. Yeah, and look, I'm very conscious that by the time a lot of people listen to this, Rosetti Alcaraz will have happened, but we can't not talk about it because...
Well, because I'm basically salivating at the prospect. And it's great because their Monte Carlo final was so compromised. Absolutely. This is going to be a proper match, I think. And if something happens during it, I feel like this will be the match that we perhaps should have got in Monte Carlo. I agree with you.
really refreshed and that's not to say that he's had a perfect tournament by any means there have been you know very carlos alcaraz ish lapses there was a big one against karen hashanov wasn't there um but
But I felt secure in him even during those lapses in a way that I don't always. And I felt... particularly convinced by him actually against against draper and i know draper was was running on fumes a little bit like I'm not sure I think that he he wanted it desperately but I'm just not sure he had the depths there to to plumb physically in that match but I feel like that matchup brought the best out of Carlos Alcraz. I was very impressed.
I thought Draper played quite well considering that I do think he is like you say really physically just tired and mentally quite tired now he's got the Sabalencas really he needs that break and I suspect he's going to come out and be a real threat as long as he doesn't get injured I think in Paris he can hurt people because his game looked big again Alcraz, he had some moments of success. Sounds one-sided, 6-4, 6-4, but it didn't feel like that. Alcraz just showed...
When he's on, he has even another gear, and he looked fresher. Him and Mazzetti... If the Bass Mazzetti turns up, it could be really, really... Because he can... he can live with our crowds in his own way from the baseline and and he and he can live with him in the touch game so it's um and and and you can't underestimate the crowd i think It can go both ways. There could be a
Oh no, everybody's here wanting me to win and I'm not on it today and it could be horrible. Those things can happen sometimes. once he gets going and the crowd get with him and he gets inspired We've seen him in Monte Carlo where there was such a big Italian following. how inspired he gets. And an inspired Mazzetti is a creative genius. And so it could be a shot maker's dream, this man. And I'm willing to diagnose Lorenzo Mazzetti now with a hefty case of fang.
The guy's got fangs. Yeah, like on clay and maybe on grass as well. It was a couple of... months ago we saw that horrible performance from him against Novak Djokovic in Miami and I remember then saying that the problem with Mazzetti on a hard court is I think the belief You know, if he's not playing well, it doesn't take much for that to go. And what happened in that match where he... stopped being able to impose himself at all and almost checked out of it that can happen we do see
But on clay, we don't see it. He brings it. You know, he went down a break, didn't he, against Zverev, but he never felt like he was out of that at all. You know, there's always belief that his best tennis can hurt. and harm opponents and i've loved watching it it's yeah i can't say it any better than A moment for Tommy Paul before he gets post-Pope Synod.
There's apparently a truck story, Matt, according to the agenda. Please elaborate. Have you not seen this? It is hilarious. He said he's been a bit distracted. Because back home in Florida, he's had his truck repossessed and taken away because he'd missed some payments. Quite why Tommy Paul is... Having to pay... sort of an installment for his...
for his car rather than just have him buying it up front and owning it. I'm not sure. There's definitely more questions and answers there. But there is an absolutely hilarious clip on his Instagram story where he's posted the footage. I think from his security camera or something. With the trap being taken away, and he's put Celine Dion, my heart will go on over the top of it. It just absolutely killed me. It was fantastic. He did say that his
His trainer or something is over there and has managed to get it back. He's made the grand payment or something that he'd missed, and now he's set up auto-pay. So don't worry. We don't need to worry about Tommy Paul's financial situation. I just don't know what he was doing. I'm worried about his credit rating though. Yeah. Yeah, he needs to sit down and take a long, hard look at himself, I think, after this. $10,891,635 in career earnings to date. What are you doing, Tommy?
Treat yourself to a truck. Cash purchase. Okay. Good luck against you, Alex. So really quite a feat to make the semis with all that going on. Yeah, well done, Tom. I mean, Hubert Hurk, I mean, you know, pretty good run from him in the context of a season to reach the quarterfinals, but he is walking like post-hip replacement.
Hubert Hercatch. I do think the injuries are racking. I mean, he's always had a bit of Andy Murray's gait about him, hasn't he? But it's unfortunately looking more and more like latter-day Andy Murray. And speaking of Andy Murray, folks, that's it for part two, but make sure you join us in part three.
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Welcome back to part three where just before we get into the big breakup a little announcement from us something that has been a long time coming it's been in the works for 18 months I think we've been we've been working on this plugging away behind the scenes wanting to say something um but also not wanting to speak too soon. So we've kept our powder dry, but we can now announce the impending launch. of our new range, our new merchandise.
It is very exciting. Matt is basically modelling the whole range right now. You've done a... Chandler or Joey in that episode of Friends where puts on an entire wardrobe of clothes. Very good of you. Yeah, it's extremely exciting. It's taken so long because we wanted to get it right. We've tried lots of different suppliers and manufacturers. We wanted to... be able to keep shipping costs for as many of you across the world as low as possible. So we've chosen a supplier that has.
a lot of fulfillment centers across the world so hopefully shipping costs not too high and We wanted really, really premium stuff that's all embroidered. It's all been sampled by us. So it has the Catherine, David and Matt and sometimes Captain Whittaker seal of approval. And it's stuff that we have genuinely wanted to and enjoyed.
wearing and we hope that you feel the same as well so um that's going to be launching uh very soon indeed so look out in your email inbox on Instagram we will let you know all the details that you need and if you're not already subscribed to the newsletter what are you doing? The link to subscribe to the newsletter is in our show notes. There's lots of good stuff in there. Most of it coming from Matt Roberts, who has, I think, demonstrated over the course of this show why.
why you would want more from the mind of Matt Roberts. um so yeah very very exciting times well done you two for modeling i am still wearing my pajamas pretty much so that's why i'm not representing on this show but um I will be on future shows. It's very exciting. Look out in your email inboxes for news of that. Folks, Andy Murray and Novak Djokovic, maybe we should play My Heart Will Go On over this section of the show. The announcement came on Tuesday morning.
Two statements, one from Andy Murray, one from Novak Djokovic. Quite different in tone, I would say, David, in the breakup statements, or certainly different in language. What was your reaction to the news, to the statements? What do you make of it all? Well, yes, those statements, Novak Djokovic saying, thank you, Coach Andy, for all the hard work, fun and support over the last six months on and off the court. Really enjoyed deepening our friendship together.
And there was an emoji after it. Andy Murray said thanks to Novak for the unbelievable opportunity to work together and thanks to his team for all their hard work over the past six months. I wish Novak all the best for the rest of the season. So those are two slightly differently termed. No mention of a deepening friendship. And now he's resumed normal programming with posts exclusively about golf.
No emoji. Read into those two statements what you will. I asked his agent why they've split, and I was just told it was a mutual agreement. okay so they literally at exactly the same time said I think it's time that we separated. Well, I doubt that's the case. There will be a specific reason. Somebody will have made that decision. We don't know who. Neither one of them has spoken yet, as far as I'm aware.
I don't know what the reason is that they've decided to separate. I'm not that surprised. I did kind of think, and I said a few weeks ago that I thought, well... They've got this far, and when they decided after the Australian Open that they wanted to continue, I really thought Wimbledon was the point of all.
that's where I think Novak Djokovic still has a chance of winning another Grand Sam title to make it 25 and who better to help him mastermind this kind of mind over matter victory than Andy Murray, the man who won his first Rimbledon title at the expense of Novak Djokovic I could just imagine them trying to have concocted that victory against all these young players that we've been talking about so therefore David do you feel less less convinced of that theory now that they've split.
Because Andy Murray was a big factor in that theory, wasn't he? Because I do think... Look, Djokovic is still good enough, I think. And if he's fit enough, he's still good enough to win Wimbledon, I think.
He's now... needs another direction and i mean i think wimbledon itself is a big enough goal for him to stay motivated and it's not very far away but it did appear that the idea was to have andy murray as part of that that role and that process of preparing himself to be at his best at Wimbledon now that's not the case we don't know
I really want to know why. Do you think the truth will come out? Do you think we will find out? I do, yeah. I want to know who made the decision and why. And I don't think either of them are good lines. I think if they're asked a straight question, they will find it hard. Neither one of them is going to say it was a mutual agreement. They might say, well, we both thought it. Djokovic is a good filibusterer.
Yes, he is. That is true. That's a point Chris Clary made in his book, actually, that he's often managed to get around difficult questions, and not deliberately, I don't think, but he answers in essays. That's kind of what he does. I think sometimes it's deliberate. Maybe it is. I sense really that he's been doing it forever. He's always done it, even when he was 18.
I also think he's an honest talker when you ask him a straight question. I think he finds it difficult to just not tell you what the truth is, or at least what's in his mind. I suspect we will find out, but I have no idea what the... I just always thought it was an odd collaboration. It was fun. It was interesting. It wasn't fun, actually. It was fun as news and fun to talk about. But actually to witness it in person, it just felt weird.
It just didn't feel quite right. I don't think that they are friends, really. I think Andy Murray massively respects him and probably likes him more having worked with him than he did before because he's got to know him. Um, But I don't really think they are. Andy would call friends, is my guess. I mean, he quite literally didn't. Yeah, I mean, and maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he'll turn around to me and say, no, I really do treat him as a friend now. And if he does, fine.
And that's okay. They don't have to be best friends. It's fine. You can have a professional relationship with somebody and then it's stop and you not be best friends and not be best friends before either. That's all fine.
doesn't mean there's some necessarily some big falling out but I the whole thing felt like a really exciting idea on paper that actually and they had that moment of course when when he beat Alcaraz which was amazing it was an incredible victory but It just always felt a bit clunky, the whole thing, and I think... It's a slight relief that it's over in a way because, I don't know, it didn't quite feel right. I think for it to work, there needed to be...
buzz around. I think that's why Novak Djokovic went for it in the first place. It was like... Andy Murray bounce, like, just energise him. And I thought that that would last longer than it did. I think it lasted for the Australian Open.
Where I think David's right. I think it probably did have a good impact there. Djokovic did seem... refreshed and hungry and we did have some really good performances from him at the Australian Open but Simon Briggs wrote in his piece about this that In Novak Djokovic's April press conferences, there were no questions. about the Andy Murray Coaching Valley. It was kind of like
The buzz had disappeared. It had all dried up. And I think for them to work together, because I agree, I don't think they are great. like there needed to be this sort of buzz around it and I just think that that went over and therefore it's kind of like, well, what's the point? I thought it would last through to the end of Wimbledon. I really did. It did come as a surprise to me that it ended so soon.
I'm sort of grateful for it. I will always remember the moment when I was in the Kokanakis press conference at the Davis Cup finals and the news came through and I was... giddy about it I was so excited about just the idea of it and I won't forget going out to Rod Laver Arena with both of you and watching that practice session together But I also won't forget the reality of it where it didn't seem that fun and we didn't really get any insight from the coaching.
corner and yeah it just all felt a bit weird all the time and now I do end up feeling a bit a bit relieved that it's over but I don't want to rewrite history because I was definitely excited about it for for a moment there like for sure and I think that's the thing I think Djokovic was excited about it for a moment I think Andy Murray was excited about it for a moment but the moment's kind of gone and and now
It's just looking elsewhere. How soon before Andy Murray's coaching someone else and who? Well, the two names that come to mind for me are Jack Draper and Igor Shviante. I know they both have coaches. Jack Draper in the past has tried bringing in another voice and was quite...
you know, was quite upfront about the way that that didn't really work. Now, if that other voice is Andy Murray, maybe that's different. And Igor Shviontek, you know, we think maybe there was some sort of... desire from her to have Andy Murray Cokesher in the past, but Murray... wasn't prepared to do that it was kind of only for Novak Djokovic that that he um that he gave it a go I believe I think the um I think Igor Shante
want somebody with her all the time. I suspect that was a sticking point for... I mean, he seems pretty prepared to travel and be away from home. But I doubt he would do, you know, 45 weeks a year. Yeah. And he has got a coach. So I don't want to, you know, I don't want to. sack win for set on this podcast. Something there would have to change. I wonder if he's worried there. I wonder if he's
You know, feeling like Liam Lawson with Yuki Tsunoda loitering in the background. I mean, he wants to be worried about our results, doesn't he? I'm sure he is. Yeah. But it strikes me that those two would be possibles. But whether he does want to be... Yeah, listen, I definitely think one of the possible reasons for this as well is that Andy Murray maybe thought, actually, I don't want to be aware as much as I've been, and it is all a bit all-consuming.
I don't want that after all. I don't know. I do think he'll want to coach again. I'm not sure soon is the answer to that. I don't think there's a right... at all for him he did make it very clear when this first started with Djokovic that he had no intention of coaching yet no intention of just going straight back out on the road but this was different And this was very much a finite time.
available but Novak Djokovic wasn't going to be around that long there's a window and he was asked to help and he went for it and I think that He probably made the right decision there because if he'd not said yes, then he'd be wondering. I wonder if I could have made that a difference. I wonder whether that would have been really cool. Well, no, he's done. Yeah, and it wasn't that cool. And now he knows how it feels, I guess. Now we all know it was weird.
Folks, our next pod is on Monday after both finals in Rome have taken place. It is live on YouTube at 8pm. If you'd like to join us live, do do that. It'll also, of course, be available as a podcast. The Roland Garros Relived show that Matt... hinted at earlier, teased masterfully about the incredible life of Gottfried von Kram. And I really don't say that lightly. This is one of...
The most incredible shows Matt has ever put together. That will be dropping on Tuesday for Friends of the Tennis Podcast. If you'd like to become a friend of the pod, then the link, as always, is in our show notes. You'll also get access to our Roland Garros review show that we'll be recording after the second Grand Slam of the season, to which we will be travelling on Wednesday.
It is coming around so quickly. Five days from now, we will all be making our way to Roland Garros and daily shows will start from the Thursday. So that is 18. Daily shows in a row. Bring it on. yeah it's going to be great folks lots of Lots of very exciting things happening in tennis podcast world over the coming days, weeks and months. So yeah, watch this space, folks.
Hello to our mascots with us for all of it, Phoebe, Maisie and Roger. Hello to our top folks and executive producers, Greg, Chris and Jeff. We'll be back on Monday to wrap up Rome. Thanks for listening. This week I'm joined by the fabulous Angela Scanlon and Vicky fans. Love, love, love. Artists, how do we feel about them? I quite like a dive. When you say dive, what do you mean like? Tordich. I'll get it. Oh, we're really down the mountains there.
Join me, Catherine Bohart, as I sit down with some very special guests to discuss their dream do in It's My Party. Just look for It's My Party on Amazon Music, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you choose to listen.