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When investing your capital is at risk, tax rules apply. Search Vanguard now. Hello, folks. Just before we get underway with our first show from the Sunshine Swing, we wanted to let you know about how you can get priority access to the best seats in the house for the BNP Paribas Open in Indian Wells next year. I'm sure you've been having FOMO.
just like we have watching Tennis in Paradise on the telly. Well, thanks to Steve Fergal's International Tennis Tours, you can place a fully refundable priority access deposit to unlock an exclusive window. you're the best seats and official experiences before packages go on sale to the general public. Just go to, yep, you guessed it, tours4tennis.com forward slash podcast. That's tours4tennis.com.
and click on the BMP Paribas Open 2026 window to secure your priority access to Indian Wells next year. On with the show. Hi, this is Billie Jean King. This is Marion Bartotti. This is Bianca Andreescu. I'm Mats Villander. This is Mary Carrillo. This is Pam Schreiber. This is Yannick Noah, and you're listening to The Tennis Podcast. Well, hello and welcome to the Tennis Podcast on this fine Monday morning, the week that tennis, the WTA and the ATP Tours returned to Indian Wells and the week.
that Lance Davis of Lance Davis, Killer B, live removal, return to Indian Wells and all of our lives. Imagine the scene, folks. Matt Roberts is at home. He's in a stinker of a mood. His beloved Fulham have conceded in stoppage time. He prays to the tennis gods to send him something. What could possibly be delivered unto him that could lighten his... mood except for Lance Davis of Lance Davis Killer B live removal did it did it live up to expectations Matt the big reunion
I didn't have any expectations of a reunion. It was so out of the blue. It was so wonderful. Maybe the best thing Indian Wells has ever done, bringing back the icon that is Lance Davis, having him not just come back, but come... back for carlos alcaraz's match and alcaraz had this beaming smile on his face oh it was an absolutely perfect moment and you're right it it did cheer me up because i was in a foul mood and i'm not anymore So...
It is this wonderful way that Greg Allensworth, who PS is Matt's favourite umpire, Matt's got a bit of a thing for Greg Allensworth. We saw him in the cafe in Melbourne and Matt sort of... looked over at him like he was starstruck by a celebrity he's got these lovely rosy cheeks hasn't he there's something just sort of comical and endearing about Greg Allensworth and the fact that he always just seems to
pop up in hot button situations or certainly has done in the last few months. The way Greg Allensworth... presented Lance Davis to Carlos Alcaraz like he was a father giving away a bride. It was so perfectly orchestrated, David. They nailed this. Yeah, and the thing is as well, I think Lance Davies is so immediately recognisable. If you can't remember the name, the moment you see him, you just suddenly have this vision of a year ago.
him arriving like some saviour when the match is being interrupted by a swarm of bees and it's just so comical and the way he was Doing it at the time a year ago just seemed so basic, and yet he was actually pulling it off. And yeah, everybody remembers it. And you're right. I think that Indian Wells absolutely played a blinder there. Good on them. I love it. Yeah, nailed it. Right. We do have to talk about things other than...
Lance Davis of Lance Davis Killer Bee Live Removal, unfortunately. We'll get on to all of that, but let's first set the scene, shall we, with somebody who is out in India miles. Matt Futterman of The Athletic is there covering the event. and he has sent us a voice note of his thoughts and impressions of the tournament so far. Hello friends. It won't surprise anyone to hear that this is a strange time to be in America.
Regardless of your political proclivities, there's a sense that the earth is moving underneath you. I think I came to California hoping to find some stability and calm. I often find that here. I went to L.A. first. As I fell asleep the first night, my bed started to shake. A 3.9 earthquake in North Hollywood. That was probably an omen. I'm sure that no matter what happens at Indian Wells, the moment that will stay with me...
was on Friday afternoon when Dayani Estremska opened up the Telegram app on her phone and started showing me how she keeps up with the misery that her sister, father, and grandparents are dealing with in Odessa. Her thumb starts moving over the apps.
This is the one that tells you when the sirens are going off and you need to go to the bomb shelter, she says This is the one where I keep up with the news This is the one that shows you where the missiles have landed I asked her where she was a week ago On that Friday, we're all going to remember because of what unfolded with Zelensky and Trump in the Oval Office. A bad day, right? I said. When your family is living through a war, they are all bad days, she told me. Fair enough.
Perhaps then the tennis might provide me some relief and stability. Not so much. A windstorm with gusts of 40 miles per hour left me with a mouthful of sand in the parking lot the first day. Also, there's no sinner. Men's tennis was supposed to be evolving into another one of its binary existences, wasn't it? Center and Alcaraz have split the slams for a year. And now we're back to empty seats around the Thanksgiving dinner table for a couple more months.
It's a little strange. Okay, but here's Sacha Varev, the number one seed, coming in to fill the void. Except he's gone in the very first match on the very first day of the real competition. Okay, fine. Stuff happens. Novak is here. And the way he's talking suddenly about Andy Murray and his calendar, it sounds like Novak's pretty all-in through the summer, like he's going to be a real full-time tennis player again.
And then he's gone in three sets. It was a massive relief to sit around with the seemingly refreshed Raducanu after everything that she's been through. It's just distressing that everywhere she goes, she has to have the security detail with her. Those guys were pretty close by as we were speaking. I wandered over to Coco's first match to see if she might set things right. She double-faulted 21 times against Miyuka Uchijima and narrowly escaped in a third set tiebreaker.
I know, I know, this isn't about me. I sound like I'm whining a bit, and I really shouldn't be. Not when Emma Navarro is saving match points with her sublime serenity. Did you see the second set between Arthur Feast and Lorenzo Musetti? Feast saved one, too. And quality-wise, that may be one of the great sets of the year. Watching those two perfect human specimens do their thing at that level was life-affirming.
Almost as life-affirming as Svitolina locking in and somehow cruising into the round of 16. I just don't know how these Ukrainian women do it. And then there was this nugget from that great philosopher Marta Koscik. She's just out of her match. She's still wearing yet another of those perfect kits she always shows up in. And she's talking about how she and her country somehow managed to soldier on. It's a saying that comes back to her.
Sometimes when she's on the court, sometimes when she's off it. It sounds better when she says it in Ukrainian, but she translates and it goes something like this. Everything will be fine. And if it's not fine, it means it's not the end. That's what I got for you from Tennis Paradise. I hope everyone out there is finding a bit of solid ground. Lord knows we could all use it.
voice note and such a great summary of what we've seen in Indian Miles so far that I almost kind of worry that people are going to tune out now. They've got what they came for in terms of... Catch Me Up with India Wells. And it's difficult to know where... to start in terms of those events that Matt listed there. But perhaps we should start with Novak Djokovic and coach Andy Murray in tow and his three-set loss to the marvel that is. Matt, I joined this match after the first set. I was out.
Saturday evening and I was making my way back on the bus up Putney Hill and saw the score and texted Matt to say, you know, what am I about to... switch on to and you said Novak Djokovic has just played the worst set of tennis I've ever seen him play. Really was awful. shockingly bad there was a moment which i think sort of summed it all up where there was a graphic on the screen and it said that
Brutig van der Zanskulp had won 16 of the last 17 points against Novak Djokovic. And it just so happened that that graphic flashed up as they panned to Andy Murray in the coaching box. And looking at it, I was thinking, what is going on? Like imagine trying to explain that graphic.
to someone, I don't know, even 18 months ago when Andy Murray was still a player and Novak Djokovic was winning everything and Burtik van der Zanskoop was in the wilderness. Like all three of those things have changed dramatically. dramatically in a pretty short space of yes pretty short space of time and it was really really shocking to see Djokovic play like that he was barely winning points you know missing by a huge margin he did
get it together somewhat in the second set and managed to win that, but he couldn't sustain it. And Baltic played the big points a lot better than him in the third and kind of ran away with it in the end. And yeah, it just... All feeds into the fascinating Novak Djokovic conundrum right now because we've seen him over the last year or so be able to turn it on a couple of times, notably at the Olympics, notably at the Australian Open.
against Alcaraz this year. But these sorts of performances, the one going back a year ago to the loss to Lucanardi at Indian Wells, another lucky loser, and this one and several others over the last year.
They're the more common sorts of performances that we're experiencing right now. And yeah, Djokovic was pretty... upfront about all that in his press conference afterwards saying it's a struggle these days like he is struggling to find his best tennis regularly he talked about how the court speed is is
problematic for him he talked particularly about the bounce how much it was bouncing up on him on that center court but these are all things that you just expect Novak Djokovic to kind of be able to deal with and yeah he's he's in a very odd place because
Just a couple of months ago, we saw him play an absolutely divine few sets of tennis to beat Alcaraz. We know that level is still in him. Realistically, we know that there's probably only four events a year that he really, really cares about, and we probably shouldn't. be expecting him to play his best tennis at indian wells but even so given what matt has said there about the commitment to andy murray and the game he's been talking
this was really at odds with that. And I know we're going to come on to talk more about Bottic, who was absolutely fantastic, and we shouldn't take that away from him. But just from a Novak Djokovic perspective, it was really, really... to see a performance like that and it's it's three losses in a row now that he's had which is the first time he's lost three in a row in in seven years like this is this is a run of form which is
you know just so un-Djokovic like and you know he's planning to play Miami for the first time in a long time so we get another look at him there but yeah as I feel like I've been saying it for 18 months you know what are you going to get from Novak Djokovic is one of the most sort of interesting questions on on the men's tour right now He's in a tough spot, isn't he, given his age? And I do more and more frequently when I'm watching him just think, wow, you look...
You do look old. You know, he is about to turn 38, even for Novak Djokovic. That is old, really old for a tennis player. But he, you know, he's not playing Indian Wells, David, because he cares about... adding another Indian Wells trophy to his cabinet. It'd be nice, fine. He wouldn't say no to it, but that's not why he's there. He's playing Indian Wells in Miami. because he realises he can't just rock up and win slams anymore. You know, he can't go Australian Open to French Open just...
rocking up at Rome and getting a few pre-Rolongeros matches in. He needs to be playing. He needs to be... keeping his match fitness up. He needs to be staying sharp and in shape. But that's all taking out of an incredibly, what is now an incredibly limited canister. I think he's in a little bit of catch. 22 with that. And I will never write off Novak Djokovic, especially not having seen what we saw from him so recently against Alcaraz at the Australian Open.
But he didn't go on to win the Australian Open after that. He didn't go on to even play another match. What I'm seeing with my eyes, David, increasingly tells me that these are the end days. for Novak Djokovic. Yeah, I can understand why you say that. And they may well be. Because if you think of the latter stages of Rafael Nadal and Andy Murray and Serena Williams and all the great champions that we've seen over...
There might be differences in the way they end up finishing their careers, but there are some common... sort of symptoms really of that decline and it's often play a good match and then run out of gas or run into an injury or something like that and it has become
quite a frequent occurrence for Djokovic to kind of look a bit like this. Funny, when he was on the practice court with Murray, the shots that I saw, I thought, wow, he looks the picture of health. You know, he looks solid and fresh and tanned and fit.
And when he was playing in that match, he looked all, anything other than those things, he looked hot and bothered and harassed and stressed. And just to punctuate that, David, there was a point in the match where he actually put his... baseball cap on wonky, you know, sort of Donald Young 2008 style. I mean, it's weird. Djokovic in a baseball cap anyway is just all kinds of wrong. David, of course, has his Djokovic baseball cap theory, which is that Djokovic never wins in a baseball cap.
Which I put to bed last year when he won the Olympic final. Well, you can have a new theory now about a wonky baseball cap. I feel pretty confident he's never winning anything in a wonky baseball cap. Was a bit of an image of a dishevelled... tennis player, really, considering the perfect balance he usually has when he's out there. That just wasn't there. And look, I think a part of that is due to what...
opponents are increasingly able to do to him. And Botek van der Zanschop is a seriously talented guy on his own. So when he plays well, you know, you've actually got to be at your best pretty much, or at least close to it in order to come through. And the best of Djokovic would always beat all of these guys.
He's just way far from that. So what he's actually doing is trying to walk that line that you mentioned. And what he's doing is he's trying to build. He's trying to find something, find what he used to have. And I think he's doing that.
in kind of... conjunction with Andy Murray the strategy is I think go to these tournaments and build and look and search and and just lay foundations for what's to come and and the the canister element I don't think at this point in the year is a problem because the motivation
is there. The bigger problem would be if he was just turning up at these events and he was like, oh God, here we go again. I don't think it is that. I think it's about trying to find what he needs later on. But the problem is when he Unless he gets there with some wins under his belt, I'm not sure how much will have been achieved. So there is now becoming a bit of an onus on...
and getting these wins so that he can feel like he's, you know, you don't want to go for a month to the States at the stage of his career he's at. It's hard enough for anybody. If he comes out of the States with, like... one or zero wins or something, that's going to be a real bummer for him. It's going to be interesting, the Miami draw for Novak Djokovic, isn't it? Let's talk about the Burtick van der Zandschulp. of it all which I've been dying to do because
I've said it once, I'll say it again. The man is a marvel. Before I had even got out of bed this morning, David had been digitally loitering and secured and completed an interview with Dutch Davis Cup. Captain Paul Haarhaus to give us an insight into the man-marvel that is Bertik van der Zansgroep. Let's hear a little insight from that. He's definitely more comfortable when he's underdog.
Because he puts a lot of pressure on himself. He puts a lot of pressure. His expectations of the match are very, very high. And this will usually result in being very nervous because... instead of just approaching it as a tennis match and, okay, let's see who comes out. We're both going to give a best shot and let's see who comes out on top. To him, it's more of a big struggle to... live up to his own expectations, maybe expectations from other people, but mostly his own.
When you have nothing to lose against a guy like Alcaraz or Djokovic, nobody's going to expect you, hey, oh yeah, you are the favourite. So then he's more relaxed, he's more loose. And then he accepts that he can lose points. And when against other guys, he won't accept that. And so then he struggles a lot. And it makes him realize that...
You know, this is not what I like. You know, I don't like this game. I don't like this the way it is or how I'm feeling when I feel so much pressure. So that's what this problem was last year around the French Open. He really said, okay, I don't know if I want to play tennis much longer or if I want to play tennis at all, if things are going this way. But he has a big game. And yes, so he has these two sides to him. He has this...
These unbelievable potential in stroke-wise and when he's practicing. I mean, the other day he was just playing with practicing in Wales with Draper and he was just... Just blowing him off the court. Easy, easy. And then when the match starts, it's a totally different game. It is a struggle for him. I also played a long time alongside Schengs Galken.
And he always said, listen, practice. Oh, I love practice for hours. And then the match would start and say, okay, I guess, well, I'm going into hell now again for a couple hours. And that's how we felt it. That's how we really felt it. Whereas I was like, wow, listen, I can't wait to start this battle, me against you. I mean, this is great. I mean, enough of practice. Let us play matches. I was always... eager to start the battle, he was like, oh.
Oh, this is hell now. I'm going to have to play a match. So sometimes I think it's almost a weapon for him that he doesn't show emotion. You know, I mean, it must be so strange for the opponents to see it because everybody shows emotion. Inside, it's a hurricane. OK, I'm going into hell now for two hours is definitely a phrase I'll be adopting from Paul Harhouse there. Really interesting hearing him explain and confirm as if it needed confirming that.
that Bertic van der Zansgroep enjoys being an underdog, that that is a, you know, a turbo... It's not a coincidence or an accident that he's slaying these top players, Novak Djokovic, Carlos Alcaraz and Rafael Nadal. of course, or the remains of Rafael Nadal at the Davis Cup last year. But he's got a problem now, David, of...
He's now going to end up being the favourite in these matches against top players because he's done it so much now. He's sort of screwing himself over, isn't he? It's going to start coming with expectation. Yeah, that's one of the reasons I loved hearing that from Paul Harris, because it helped me to understand a little bit more, you know, because you can watch this stuff sometimes and think, well, is it...
Are you just not interested as much when you're playing these lesser ranked players? And no, it's nerves, it's expectation. And so I am fascinated in how he deals with that. I mean, I went on to ask Paul. well, how is he trying to overcome that? What's the next step? And he said, well, like most of these guys, he talks to a...
to a sort of mind coach, you know, about how to approach these things. But I think it is an ongoing battle. It's not something that he's just solved. You know, there he is talking about what he's... what he did to Draper in practice and we all remember that match against Draper at the US Open where he was just terrible you know and he can be and it's hard to reconcile the two but
It does make him absolutely fascinating to watch because, you know, on the surface of it, he's not giving you any emotion. He's not... There's no hoopla. And you could very easily just think, well, why do I want to watch this guy? But actually, because he's so the opposite of all those things and getting results against the very best or the most...
outrageously showboating players as well, or the most popular players, that in itself makes him interesting. And I just wonder whether the best is yet to come from him still. I think he's magnetic. I'm a bit obsessed with him. I like the orange shoes, by the way. In these sorts of matches, I think he's, yeah, utterly magnetic. I can't take my eyes off him.
I think Indian World's 2025 will go down as like the five days that defined Burtick van der Zanskoop. He lost a six-love set in qualifying to Matteo Gigante. And... exited qualifying in that round. And then four or five days later, he's taking out Novak Djokovic and looking great. Yeah, like that is who he is. I think we're really learning that over the past six or seven months or so. And I do love that insight from Paul.
whole house there because i have wondered in the past is he feeling nothing and i think he's i think he's actually really told us there that he that he is feeling a lot it's just all bottled up and it's much easier for him to cope when he's not the favourite in these matches and it's much more stressful when he is expected to win as Paul has said there largely because of the pressure that he puts on himself. And that is really, really just such good insight.
Yeah, I feel like now we've done this big section on Baltic, now we've learned about Baltic, we've used this clip, he's almost certainly going to lose today, isn't he? So, like, pressure on us to get this podcast up quickly so people can... People can listen to the Burtick chat while it's still live. Like, God, what an enigma. Maybe our Greekspore chat will age better because David also chatted to Paula Harhouse about Talon.
Greekspor, who is the latest nail in the coffin of Alexander Zverev's attempts to become the world number one, David, deciding set tie-break win for Greekspor. Fair to say, I think, that he choked. And won anyway, which is not to do him down. I think it's incredible that he did that because previously he has choked and very much not won against Zverev.
Yeah, and this is one of the matches that I remember most from 2024 was Tan and Grigspoor going double break up in the fifth set against Alexander Zverev at the French Open, 4-1. and then not winning. And look, you have to give some credit to Zverev in that situation. That is kind of, to my mind, Zverev's trademark, is that he just hangs around and doesn't let you win.
He puts balls in the court and challenges you to knock him out. And he did that here to some degree. I mean, look, Zverev is playing terribly at the moment, by his own admission. And I remember thinking at... in the Australian Open final. I thought he was really poor in that final. I didn't think he was timing the ball.
I mean, he's been way worse than that since then. In all of the matches he's played, he just isn't time in the ball. There's no confidence, not even the serves working. But that still required Greeks poor. to kind of get over this mental hurdle, particularly against Ferry. He's had a number of these. And...
I mean, in this match, I think he had eight match points before he finally won. And you could see, I mean, there was no hide in place. There was no attempt to hide from him either that he was finding this really tough. I really enjoyed, and I spoke to Ha-House a little bit.
about this the conversations he was having with his support team which are very audible in indian wells they've really ramped up the audio on the on the coaching boxes which which i think is to all of our benefits and his His physical trainer wasn't giving any technical advice, but he was in Greekspor's face. swearing at him, basically trying to demand that he not feel sorry for himself or think back on the point he's just lost.
stay in that present moment and do all the right things and come off with no regrets and the fact that he did in the end whether whether it's because vera was rubbish or not which he was but this is a a moment greeks poor in har house's words greeks Paul can use this for the rest of his career, to think of the moment that he got over the line against this guy. Because he's beaten a lot of the other guys quite straightforwardly. He's doing what...
van der Saalshoek finds difficult. Like he came out against Mpeci Perikard yesterday, beat him straightforwardly to back up the Zverev win. But Haha said about him that... He's never really thought of himself as a top player, which I find very different to a lot of the upcoming young lads. If you spoke to Fonseca or Fies or players like this, they think that they're going to go all the way to the top. Grigspori was saying...
And, you know, he needed to get to 30 in the world to believe that he was a 30 in the world player. And I think that that probably tells you its own story because talent-wise, Grigspor is seriously good. It's more of a kind of Rorinka-like trajectory. Isn't it? Jack Draper was incredibly impressive on Saturday night. Well, Saturday night, our time at against Raul Fonseca. He now plays...
Jensen Brooksby, who's put a... couple of wins together just keep an eye on on Jenson Brooksby I think Carlos Alcaraz for once is loving the court surface Matt he might have they they somehow have managed to find a way I think to make the Indian Wells conditions even more idyllic for Carlos Alcaraz. They're higher bouncing and there's no bees. And if there are bees, Lance Davis is around. So all fine. Yes, I've found the...
The chat about the court surface is highly amusing because everyone has a different take. Alcaraz says he actually thinks he's a bit faster. Runa said the same. Medvedev says it's the slowest court he's ever played on in his life. Pagula says she thinks it's slower. Sviontek says she doesn't really notice any difference. And it's like, great. Really, really helpful. Like, I really have a handle now on what the court surface at Indian Wells is like. But honestly, I think...
Maybe that is the case. maybe the actual conditions there. You know, we've had a lot of wind that Matt Futterman referenced. We've had, obviously, some players playing in the day, some at night. There's been some cold days. There's been some hot days. I think all of that maybe makes the biggest impact on the actual... conditions at Indian Wells. But whatever they are, Carlos Alcres says he feels at home there. So does Igor Shviantec.
interestingly you know both had a lot of success there in the past both both just using the same sorts of phrase to describe how they how they like indian world's new surface or not and uh yeah Very interesting match tonight for Alcaraz coming up against Shapovalov, given that Shapovalov has been in some really good form in the last few weeks. I'm very interested to see how he does in that match-up.
You mentioned Draper, and I do think that's the standout performance that I've seen so far. He's won to beat Fonseca. So complete. I think if Jack Draper had to... define how he wants to play he would point to that match you know we've talked in the past about him being a little bit a bit of a grinder and it not really
suiting his body type and the weapons that he has available to him. Well, in this match, he had a really good balance of still putting the ball in awkward places for Fonseca, finding his backhand a lot. Coming to the Nets.
playing beautifully up there, really nice touch, but also imposing himself and hitting winners. And it was a lovely blend that he had going on there, Draper. So that's going to be interesting against Brooksby, who, as you said, had that nice win over Auger Aliasim after battling through. his first round um to brooks be obviously a sort of intelligent player so it's going to be interesting i think coming coming up against draper but uh yeah like
It's been an interesting men's and women's tournament from that point of view so far. Lots of big names have lost, but also... plenty remain and plenty of the sort of up-and-coming players seem like they're in really good form as well. Yeah, form's an interesting one, isn't it? Sitsapaz keeping up his good form. Matteo Berrettini pretty handily. He now faces Holger Runa, who got a win over Ugo Mbappé, which, you know...
in the context of Holger Runa of late, I'd say that's a pretty good win. Andrei Rublev is out on kind of the flip side of the form thing. He lost to Matteo Arnaldi and Kasper Rude lost as well too. To Marcus Garone, he looked all at sea. Casper Rude. Last one on the men's side, we have Yasuki Watanuki. He is the lowest ranked man at number 349 in the world to reach the last 60. at India Wells in 21 years. He qualified and then has beaten Alexander Bublik.
And Thomas Mahatch, although it was a retirement from Mahatch, wasn't it? I don't know whether either of you want to jump to his defence. I believe he was... pretty ill and then he's beaten Francis Tiafoe in two straight sets and he is coached Matt by Tiafoe's former coach Wayne Ferreira Yeah, it's really interesting this because Watanuki said he played Tiafoe in Miami when Tiafoe was coached by Wayne Ferreira.
And he said he really liked the vibe. He kind of picked him out and said he liked his on-court manner. He liked the way he was delivering the message. And he actually got in touch with like the Japanese Tennis Federation and said... Can you put me in touch with Wayne Ferreira when Wayne Ferreira became available? And they're now having this trial period together over the Sunshine Double period.
He's been a real hit, you know, like Tiafoe normally in America is the guy with the great crowd support and he did have it, but... Equally, the crowd was absolutely loving what Watanuki was doing. He hit close to 50 winners in this match. He's got a very odd serve. He does some odd things with his feet. His right foot goes in front of his left foot in a way that...
I've never seen happen before, but he told the HTTP website it's because he's just stronger pushing off his right foot. So he tries to do that as much as he can. But yeah, he's a really, really fun time. He had a big injury last year, some tendonitis in his knee, which kept him out for a long period. But he's back now and this is his best run since he was back. He was also responsible for one of the great tennis graphics because the graphic came up.
with his forehand speed pre and post a drink of Pepsi because he mid-match downed some Pepsi and suddenly started hitting his forehand faster and better. You know, I just love that kind of thing. It's a bit like, you know, when they had... Points won pre and post Cotton Eye Joe. Like just absolutely excellent graphic that we can all enjoy. And yeah, like he's managed to back these wins up, which I think is the kind of really impressive thing. I don't know how much further.
he's going to go but he's I've really enjoyed watching him and I think people have enjoyed watching him generally at Indian Wells it's always nice when a when a new name comes along and and sort of catches your eye like that Okay, that's it for part one. If Pepsi want to send us any free... free product, then send it to Matt and David because I think it's horrible. But that's it for part one. We'll be back with the women's goings on in Indian miles so far in part two.
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When investing your capital is at risk, tax rules apply. Search Vanguard now. Welcome back to part two of the tennis podcast where we turn our attention now to the women's matches and results that we've seen so far in Indian Wells and Matt. The worst match, according to the woman herself, that Naomi Osaka has ever played in her life. She lost out four and four to Camilla. Osorio in her first match this was a sorry old scene for Naomi Osaka it was yeah I was alerted to those to those quotes
by the fact that she posted it on threads, I believe, which I'm not actually on, but it's somehow linked to Tennis Podcast's Instagram or something. And it said, Naomi Osaka posted a thread that you might like. It was her saying that was the worst match I've ever played. And I was like, no, I don't like that. That is really, really not what I want to hear.
She's just run into this problem now, Osaka, where she played quite a full schedule for the first half of last year. Couldn't really get any form going, but at least she was healthy and she was playing. Back end of the year, start of this year, she starts to find her form, but injury has ended up derailing her at the end of last season.
this year in the Auckland final and then in the Australian Open as well. And this was her first match after the Australian Open. So it had been a month or so since she'd played. And yeah, it was a really, really... horrible performance you know so many unforced errors she just never really felt like she had the ball under control and the problem she's at she's got now is kind of the problem she's had a little bit throughout her career where given that
Her results have never really resulted, to use the sort of phrase that she might use, on the clay and on the grass. There's such a premium on her time on a hard court to get results and to find form. And suddenly we're in a... We're in a stage of the season where there's only Miami left of the big hard courts before we move to the clay and the grass. And it just feels like she's run out of time to really, or almost run out of time, to find the form.
The quotes that she's been giving over the last few months or so have been a bit different to the quotes that she gave a year ago when she... talked about and genuinely meant wanting to play a full schedule and really be motivated even if even if the results weren't coming i think she has talked a little bit more about not really wanting to be out there
if she's not putting results together because she knows what she's so capable of, having won those four majors. So she's kind of stuck between a bit of a rock and a hard place at the moment, Naomi Osaka, with her form, with some injuries, with the... the change of surface coming up it's it's just a bit of a struggle and she's also you know she's played the new coach card hasn't she and that hasn't really worked quite to the degree that she would have hoped as well so
It's kind of a bit of a tough scene right now to picture Naomi Osaka back to where she feels like she belongs and where we all think she belongs right at the top of the sport because she just can't get the consistency.
And can't get the wins, quite frankly. So yeah, it was a really, really tough watch. But it's kind of like you're never going to give up on Novak Djokovic. I feel a little bit like that with Naomi Osaka, just given that... we all know how great she's capable of being i always have it in the back of my mind that this might be the tournament where where she puts it together but as the weeks pass that just seems that just seems a little bit fanciful and hopeful but i
But I really, really do hope that it comes. And she's obviously played well in Miami in the past. So let's hope Miami is the event. Good news, I suppose, that she seemed fit, you know, unlike when we last saw her. But yeah, this was a... This was a step backwards in terms of the form that she'd been displaying over the last few tournaments. David, we were on double bagel watch with Iga Svantec.
for a while. She has dropped only four games in two matches against Caroline Garcia and Diana Yastrzemska. Fair to say she looks... pretty much on course to defend this title once again. Yeah, and I think with those two particular opponents, if they are not bang on it, they've got a big problem. And it's not surprising to me at all that those scorelines are as lopsided as they are because they do not...
compromise whatsoever. Garcia never has. She always does that thing of standing way inside the baseline. Jastramska had beaten Onsjibur very handily in the previous round and then... got this defeat where she's sort of six love, four love down and just not even putting balls in the court very often. And Schwantech is just relentless and really, really good. She's looking great at the moment. But I don't know how much you can read.
into it really until she plays somebody who's not like that um but uh she's exactly where she'd want to be in the draw right now matt loves a double bagel watch i do I have to admit, I really do. It gets annoyed when it gets ruined. Like, Fiontech's great for double bagel watch. She's very often... the player involved when i am looking out for a double bagel you know her her supremacy over like most of the tour is extremely remarkable she won 19 games in a row across
Those matches, you know, the end of the Garcia match and the start of the Jostremska match. It's just crazy. But she is in a very... I'm sure we'll come on to more of these players, but she's in the very tough...
section of the drawer in terms of like the names that are still there in that bottom half. She's got Karolina Mukova next, like just absolutely... salivating at the prospects of that and Rebecca is still there and Pagula and Andreva and Zhang Xinwen you know this is an absolutely stacked section of the draw which I'm really excited to watch over the next few days
Yeah, Andreva beat Clara Towson again overnight. Obviously, a repeat of the Dubai final. Pagula looks in great form. Svitolina rebacking around Andreva. Can't wait for that. Yeah, it's that. bottom half is tantalising. In the top half, you've got Coco Gough, who... is still in the tournament and is winning ugly, which is how she won the US Open in 2023. So maybe she'll go on to win this title.
It's pretty hard to see based on the last performance of hers we watched against Moika Uchijima in which she hit, as Matt mentioned in his voice note earlier, David, 21. double faults, you know, and the rest of the unforced errors. This was a horrible tennis match. Yes. I never quite know.
what to think about Coco Goff in this sort of form. I'm full of admiration that she wins so many of the matches she plays that are like this, which are emotionally taxing because she just is so frustrated and so ridden with errors. I think it was more than 60 unforced errors to go with the 21 double faults. But I more feel...
surprised that this has come back to such an alarming degree so quickly from where she was when it seemed as though she'd put this stuff behind her. And I know his form isn't... isn't a definite. And just because you have some good weeks and you don't have forehand errors and you don't have missed serves and you're winning titles, it doesn't necessarily mean it's always going to happen for the rest of time. Of course not.
But this is just a total return to last year's runs of double faults and results and looking a bit bereft. I hope she can tidy it up because it was a great period, I thought, when she had total control over her own game. And I want to see what that looks like against Sabalenka and Svantec and Rybakken and the other best players I know.
I don't want to see her having to scratch around and just... figure out a way to win um because she's she's capable of being so much better than that i mean i'm just i'm not qualified enough to know what's gone wrong again um but but i mean it does always make her intriguing because there's no guarantee which one it's going to be Belinda Bencic won the battle of the backhand listers, which Matt stayed up to the wee hours watching, of course. Was it good?
It was good. It was patchy, but when it was good, it was phenomenal. Bengshik came out very sharp. I think having that round one match really... really helped her, whereas Inissimova thrust immediately into a match against Belinda Bencic. It's a brutal draw for them both to have... two of the big winners during the Middle East swing, to have to play each other so early.
you know, Nisimova was a little bit sloppy to start with, but she turned it into a great match. She was just hitting line after line in that second set and won the tie break and a very, very good bounce back. and recovery from, from Bencic to win the third.
Even in defeat, I still think it was quite encouraging for Nisimov. I do think generally she's moving a lot better than she has done in the past. She just didn't quite have her game in this one, but her fight was there and her... defence and movement looked improved to me but Bencic is absolutely remarkable like it's incredible the form she's come back with and I kind of talked a bit
on a pod previously about how she's come back as not a different player, you know, in the way that Svitolina did come back as a different player, noticeably more aggressive. I do think with Bencic, though, she is... She's staying a lot more positive on the court. I've seen her in the past kind of get a bit down on herself, but that's not really happening at the moment, hence why she was able, I think, to come back in that third set. It does seem that her...
Her mindset is maybe different, even if her game isn't. And yeah, it was extremely, extremely enjoyable to watch those backhands go up against each other. Like, Bengtšić now plays Schneider, I think. Like, a really, really fun section of the draw. And on the form, Bengtšić has... has displayed, I would probably be backing her right now. Schneider's... I mean, she's still in the draw in Indian Wells.
as we speak right now, but Schneider's form has dipped a bit, hasn't it, compared to what it was back end of last year where it was all on the rise, wasn't it, for Schneider? Just a slight stutter in that. upward trajectory. Madison Keyes is back. Hasn't played a course since winning the Australian Open title. Won on her return against Anastasia Potapova who watched this.
I saw some of this and I just, it was so nice to see Madison Keyes come out as a Grand Slam champion, especially in Indian Wells, in California, you know, you could just... Maybe I'm looking for it, but you could just see how freeing it was for her. How... It just doesn't matter really now what else she does in her career. And I'm sure she's massively motivated and I think she can still achieve more. But it just, she's already done it.
She's already achieved the ultimate in the sport now. And I just think... I felt at the time when she won that title, it was such an uplifting, life-affirming moment when we saw her win that title inside the Rod Laver Arena. But actually, I know there's been some consternation about the fact she wasn't able to play the event. the other week and she hasn't played since the Australian Open. But I kind of thought this was perfect. Come out, Indian Wells, get a comfortable win, just look.
look completely free and um delighted for her she she's she's going to be an interesting story to follow in throughout the sunshine double i think in that way yeah Agreed. Me too. I'm going to be following closely. OK, that's it for part two. We'll be back in part three with quite a few bits of significant news from the tennis world. Do you belong here next to me building an overseas field hospital in a disaster zone? What's your cut saying? Are you just going to turn the radio off?
Oh, are you going to stay here and get stuck in? Still listening? Good. You belong here. Army recruiting now. Search army jobs. You do podcasts. Peter. Park Run. We'll do your ISA. With the Vanguard managed ISA, our experts will take care of things for you. What will you do instead? When investing your capital is at risk, tax rules apply. Search Vanguard now. Welcome back to part three of the tennis podcast where we heard last week, Thursday of last week.
the news that the WTA is unveiling a maternity pay scheme funded by the Saudi Arabian Sovereign Wealth Fund. This from Charlie Eccleshire in The Athletic. Women's tennis players will receive... We've paid maternity leave for the first time in WTA tour history through a new programme funded by the Public Investment Fund or PIF. of Saudi Arabia, the WTA announced paid leave of up to 12 months.
will be complemented by access to grants for fertility treatments, including in vitro fertilization, IVF and egg freezing. The tour estimates that more than 320 players will be eligible for... the programme. Each player that takes up funding will be paid the same as yet undisclosed sum proportional to the duration of their leave.
Victoria Zarenko has talked about it. Obviously, she was pretty instrumental in... bringing about the change that there has already been in terms of the WTA's attitude towards maternity leave when she had her son Leo. Well, when would that have been 2016, 2017, something like that? So she obviously thinks this is a great thing and something that's been a long time coming.
Charlie Eccleshare says the initiative is one of the most significant developments in the multi-year partnership between the WTA and PIF signed last May, as well as Saudi Arabia's increased visibility in women's tennis. Um... The pioneering initiative supported by PIF and championed by the WTA Players' Council marks the first time in women's sports history that comprehensive maternity benefits are available to independent, self-employed athletes, the WTA said.
in a statement when asked on Monday about the possible disconnect between a breakthrough in employment benefits for women being so closely tied to a nation whose human rights record towards women and LGBTQI+. people has been heavily criticised by Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch. WTA Chief Executive Portia Archer said in a video interview, quote, questions about Saudi society are really not questions for me or the WTA.
their questions for the Saudis to answer. Gosh, this is a heavy one. I mean, obviously it is the right... that women and female athletes should receive maternity pay, should not be disadvantaged for choosing... To have children, that's an absolute no-brainer and that in a vacuum is a good thing and an expected thing. Is it a good thing at any cost? No. And for me...
The money coming from PIF and from Saudi Arabia is too high a cost. This is sports washing. I think WTA players are being used as pawns and it feels to me like... They've been laid a trap, quite frankly. The only way you can get access to the rights you deserve is by accepting money from your overlords. It feels like The Handmaid's Tale to me, like it really... really makes me queasy to my stomach. And I'm sorry to have to talk about it that way because obviously this should be a good thing.
But frankly, I do just think it's a pretty egregious example of sports washing. And just to emphasise that point, this tweet from Fawzia Al-Ottar. Otayibi, a Saudi Arabian women's rights campaigner whose sister is in jail in Saudi Arabia. She, quote, tweeted a... piece about this news and the WTA saying, well, Saudi Arabia funds maternity leave for WTA players. My sister, a fitness trainer, Manahal, remains imprisoned and tortured simply for being a woman.
who chose to live freely. Saudi Arabia doesn't support women. It buys global silence on its crimes against them. Matt, do you have anything to add?
Not too much. I mean, I think that's incredibly powerfully said. I guess I feel a little bit about this, kind of like I end up feeling about... the WTA finals when the argument is put forward that you know isn't it fantastic that the WTA players are getting paid that amount of of money for for playing in and maybe winning the wta finals and you know i'm sure some people will probably
Listen to this and think we're being really, really hypocritical, you know, because we so often talk about wanting the women to be paid what they deserve. And we so often talk about wanting the women to have the... maternity policy like this and then when it comes we we might complain about it but i i also think we've also been very consistent in wanting more from the WTA than that you know wanting them to to stand up for women's rights and not be a a pawn in this big sports washing
And it really feels like the WTA is that right now. And I think we can accept that this is a... good use of that money and yet still be very very uncomfortable where that money is is coming from and and wish that It was coming from somewhere else. And look, maybe right now that amount of money wouldn't be available from somewhere else. But maybe if the WTA could take a, I don't know.
a longer term approach and and grow maybe that money would be available from somewhere else in the future and and personally i would I would kind of prefer that because this, as you said, leaves me feeling uncomfortable, even if in a... in a vacuum, as you said, it's a good use of that money. I think we've got to look at the bigger picture here. And I think for Portia Archer to say that it's not a question for the WTA, I think is...
It's really quite poor because I think that absolutely is a question for the WCA. Where's the line? Vladimir Putin offers, you know, to fund equal prize money at all events. Do we accept that? Do we say questions about Russian society are not questions for the WTA? They're questions for the Russians to answer? I don't know. I want there to be a line. Maybe we live in a world now where there aren't any lines. I don't know. Unfortunately, some sad news, David, from the...
the tennis world over the last week. We've lost Fred Stolle at the age of 86. The Australian... Tennis, great. Won the French Open in 1965, the US Open in 1966 and reached the finals in six other Grand Slams, including three at Wimbledon. Also won 10 Grand Slam men's doubles titles and seven mixed doubles. titles.
His obituary in The Guardian was written by the great journalist Richard Evans. He said, typically, Stolle did not allow his frustrating failure to win Wimbledon deter him from making the most of his ability as a world-class... player or to douse the huge enjoyment he derived from being one of the game's most popular personalities he played in an era when outside of Wimbledon and a couple of other Grand Slams the nocturnal hours were to be enjoyed as much as
sunlit days on the courts of the world's most glamorous locations. He will be really missed by the tennis world, won't he? Yeah, because he's perhaps not as storied and as decorated as some of the other big Australian names like Rod Laver, Roy Emerson, Ken Roseville, John Newcomb, but... You hear there, he won a couple himself and he was in all these other finals and everybody knew him, everybody remembers him as being part of this generation.
You can hear the sort of affection with which Richard writes about a man he knew. And Mary Carrillo has spoken to us about Fred Stolle in the past and as a broadcast colleague, loved him. Just loved spending time in his company, listening to his stories. I occasionally cross paths with him. I didn't know him on a personal level, but I would occasionally cross paths with him. If you got in a lift with him, he'd gently tease you about something, whether it was about a British tennis player.
results or whatever it was and he was just one of those great characters of the sport and um yeah it's sad sad that he's no longer with us um but You can just hear in all the tributes that have been paid to him just how much affection people had for him. Yeah, incredibly worn tributes. That one in The Guardian by Richard is really beautiful. So, yeah, we're thinking of everybody, particularly Mary Carrillo, that's lost Fred Stolle this past week. Very sad.
And that's it for this week's tennis podcast. We will be back on Thursday because it's a combined 1000 event. So we up the pod numbers. We'll be back on Thursday. and we'll be back on Monday as well with a live show next Monday to wrap up all things Indian Wells. We also have a live YouTube Q&A show for Friends of the Tennis Podcast this Wednesday.
That's at 8pm UK time for Friends of the Tennis Podcast. And if you'd like to become a friend and get access to that, then the link, of course, is in the notes to this show. We have a mascot for this. show folks and ding ding ding i'd like to sound the bernese mountain dog alarm Because the mascot for this show is Maggie, owned by Elizabeth. Maggie is an eight-year-old Bernese mountain dog. She's not actually a big fan of tennis. Don't worry.
Elizabeth, Maggie can do no wrong in my eyes. She says that Maggie's exclamations and shouting at the TV. So she says her exclamations and shouting at the TV wake Maggie up, preventing her from getting her 18 hours of sleep. per day. Truly the definition of beauty sleep because it is successfully creating one of the most beautiful dogs I've ever seen. However, she does love the walks she gets so that Elizabeth can listen.
to the Tennis Podcast. She is a stunner. I don't know what to say. Hannah looked at this picture and what were the two words that sprung to her mind, Matt? I believe it was shiny and... eyebrows yeah and you'll know you'll know what she means when you see the picture of Maggie in our newsletter. And if you'd like to subscribe to the newsletter and you don't already get it, then the link to that is in our show notes as well. And it's free and it's excellent.
There you go. Thank you, Elizabeth. And thank you, Maggie. Big week for us and our mascots in Indian Wells. We've all got fantasy league players. Still in the game, some. Hello to Phoebe, my mascot, to Maisie, David's mascot, and to Roger. Matt's mascot, who, of course, is half Bernese Mountain Dog. Any amount of Bernese Mountain Dog is a good amount. Hello to our top folks and executive producers, Greg, Chris and Jeff. And Matt, we have some shout outs.
We start with Sarah Galci Carlton from Malta. And Sarah asks that we shout out also her friend Mary Ann Caruana, who is also from Malta. And Sarah says, we've been good friends to a love of music for 35 years. But I only found out recently that she's been a lifelong tennis fan too when we went for a coffee after the Australian Open final. She's a huge Sinner fan. Love it. Tough scene for Mary at the moment.
But that's really lovely. Mary, like Mary Carrillo, of course, and Sarah got to not say Borwell. And I've got to not say Goma, which leaves us a little bit short of other options. But... Like Sarah Sue, my oldest friend that Matt met when we went to Dublin. We like Sarah Sue. We like Sarah C. There we go. I tell you what, Sarah is never hearing this shout out. I can't imagine anyone less likely to listen to the tennis podcast than my friend Sarah C. Sarah, Mary.
I love tennis friends and tennis podcast friends. That is absolutely joyful. Thank you. Next up, we have Sophia Ayala Moniz-Galvo. From Lisbon. Sophia. Hello. I can only apologise. Sophia from the barge. I can only apologise to Sophia because I do find Portuguese names incredibly... hard to pronounce correctly, so I'm sure I've got it wrong. But yes, Sophia from the Barge, who I met at the Billie Jean King Cup and Davis Cup finals last year.
Love that for you. And for Sophia. Like Kenan. Although her name isn't actually Sophia, is it? It's Sonia. But I think we'll take that. I think it's the other way around. Her name is Sophia and everybody calls her Sonia. Ah, well then, great. You nailed it. And Sofia has a great story. She says, I was introduced to tennis by my father, a former Portuguese fighter pilot who played tennis in his free time. My father's greatest accomplishment was winning a veteran NATO tournament.
against then US Secretary of Defense Frank Carlucci under the Reagan administration. He's now 82 years old and still plays paddle three times a week. Love it. Love that. That's so good. She didn't say pickleball. Getting a NATO mention into the pod. Sophia, that's fantastic. Thank you. And lastly, we have Kate, who sent me a very chaotic chain of emails a few weeks ago. because she wanted to give a surprise shout out.
For her mum, Susie, and her auntie, Annabelle, who are both huge tennis fans and tennis podcast listeners. I don't know whether I'm exposing her here. I probably am. But she...
accidentally copied her mum in on the email to me, even though it was supposed to be a surprise. So she had to text her dad to log into her mum's email and delete it so that she wouldn't see, which I just... absolutely loved and Kate requested a shout out for her mum and her auntie during Indian Wells because they are right now at Indian Wells together and even though they live even though they live nearly 5,000 miles apart Susie in Surrey in the UK and Annabelle in British Columbia in Canada
they share a love of tennis and they're constantly talking about it and they fit in trips to tournaments for reunions. And this year their reunion is at Indian Wells. And I think Kate has a little bit of FOMO, the fact that they're at Indian Wells. wells and she's not but she was hoping that we could give this shout out to them now and hopefully they will they will hear it as they are at indian wells together so really really love that one oh fantastic
If Susie did see the email, do you think she'll pretend that she didn't? Because that's what I would do in her shoes, I think. It sounds like Kate's dad played a blinder. Yeah, where's his shout out? And did manage to rescue the situation. Annabelle, like Annabelle Croft and Annabelle Medina-Garriguez. Susie, like, of course, Suzanne Longlin and the Cocker Spaniel that I think was... in last night's best in show at Crofts. And Kate, like... Help me out, lads.
I can't. I would. Katie Bolter. Katie Bolter. There we go. Well done. Kate, that's incredible. Let us know if the surprise was successful. And I love that. So thank you very much. And Susie and Annabelle have an amazing time in... Indian Wells. I understand, Kate, where you're coming from on the FOMO front. We'll be back on Thursday to talk more about Indian Wells. And of course, we have that Q&A show for friends on Wednesday. Thanks for listening. listening we'll speak to you then