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Well, hello and welcome to the tennis podcast on the penultimate day of the Davis Cup 2024, a day when Italy reached the final for the second consecutive year. It is they who will face... The Netherlands tomorrow. I'm Catherine Whittaker. I am back now in London. It was looking unlikely at one point when I was detained on the tarmac by British Airways, but here I am. Matt is still in Malaga and David... is in Solihull. It has been quite a day in the tennis world. Matt, how are you doing?
honestly my brain is completely broken Like all I've really been able to do is just say what the fuck over and over again for several hours. But it has meant that I'm very, very excited to talk to you both about. About the news. Yes. Yeah. Capital T, capital N, the news. David, how has your afternoon been? Fine, thanks. Yes, the news to which they're referring folks, if you've been living in a cave for the last 24 hours, is that Andy Murray is going to coach Novak Djokovic.
I mean, even saying that out loud, I still can't quite get my head around it. Yeah, I just want to assure the listeners that we are going to cover this in all of the glorious detail it... It warrants. I am going to describe in graphic detail how my jaw hit the floor on British Airways flight 014, whatever it was that was delayed. what felt like a million hours from Malaga to London today. Mid-air, a text arrives from David. It is a screenshot that takes an age to reply, to arrive, because yes...
I've paid good money for in-flight Wi-Fi, but does that mean that photos download quickly? No, it does not. So I can see the caption of the image. The caption is... genuinely thought this was an April Fool. And I can see the circle, the download circle going. And I'm thinking, what can it be? What can it be? What can it be? Like, I know it's something implausible. I know it's... Something David might have thought was a joke. And yet still my jaw hit the floor. I mean, where were you, Matt?
And how did you react? I was in a Tenasi Kokanakis press conference. Did you get his reaction? I'd be interested to know. Well, to, you know... Give this section of the pod a bit of a Davis Cup flavour. I can tell you that Yannick Sinner, I got his reaction. I was in the press conference when he found out, and I think this might be the biggest proof yet that Yannick Sinner is just built different. Not like us.
just a different form of human because he was told that Andy Murray was going to be coaching Novak Djokovic, which... I think 99% of people on the planet would be utterly shocked at that news. And Yannick Sinner just sat there as though he'd been told that he was having cod for dinner. Was it like him eating a banana in the press conference last year after winning the Davis Cup? It was an apple, but it was very much like that. It was as though nothing had happened.
There was not even a flicker. And I just thought, wow, there's no wonder that this guy can cope with, like, big moments. He's... He's immune to, like, normal human response. It was absolutely staggering. One of my first thoughts, not the first thought, but one of them was... Would this get Burtick van der Zandschorp's pulse up? Like, would this elicit a reaction from Burtick van der Zandschorp? I don't think so. We'll never know. No, probably not.
Yeah, look, we're going to talk about the tennis that has happened today. first and foremost. But please rest assured that we are going to cover Andy Murray and Novak Djokovic in a coaching relationship. in every bit of detail that is required later on in the show please know that to be honest I need the extra half an hour of processing time I need every extra minute I can get. I'm still going to be processing this years from now. I think it is the most shocking.
jolting bit of tennis news I have ever received. Because... In a very specific way, because yes, you know, there's things like people test, Yannick Sinner testing positive. Obviously, that was huge. You know, there have been other cases like that. Maureen Sharapova testing positive when David and I were, you know, we'd had a... If there being some Maria Sharapova news coming and we were preparing for having to do an emergency retirement pod, that was a shock that that was what the news was.
I mean, you could have told me there is some huge jaw-dropping Novak Djokovic news coming and asked me to guess what it might be. Despite all the time that I had on the runway at Malaga Airport, if I'd been listing possible bits of news that it might have been in that time, I would not have even... thrown this out into the ether for fear of being laughed at. That is how bonkers it is. And we did have like...
Maybe a small tip off that Andy Murray was thinking about planning to maybe be in Australia and like... It absolutely did not cross my mind one little bit that he might be in Australia for this reason. And I think...
I kind of had the same thought process as you, Catherine. I was trying to compare it to other bits of shocking tennis news. And like the two that really came to mind were the Yannick's in a... positive drug test announcement very very recently and that was absolutely shocking and then also the ash party retirement which kind of happened in the middle of the night for us i remember waking up to that and being
absolutely shook that the world number one was retiring. How about the Novak Djokovic deportation? That was kind of like slower though, right? That was like a slow news. But there was a lead-in. Yeah, there was build up to that. Yeah, like I think that story is bigger. Now about Djokovic getting deported from... Agreed. From... Agreed. Australia. But like as a single piece of like shocking in the moment news, this was the one. And it was also the one that sounded most fake.
Yeah, well, the caption to David's message was, thought this was an April Fool's. Yeah. I looked it up. I looked up the calendar just to make sure. I mean, it's like seven months ago. I'm going to get had here. It was my first thought. This is not real. Andy Murray's played a joke like this before with Ross Hutchins on April Fool's Day. And lured in some media outlets that actually published it. And I thought, I'm not going to be one of those.
You're not going to be one of the people that turns up in Las Vegas having rerouted their sat-nav trying to... See a thing that only exists on the internet. Yes, David. Yeah, as Matt says, look, we hadn't been tipped off about this news, but we had heard something that indicated there was a chance that Andy Murray...
was going to be in Australia. So like we were on alert for Andy Murray doing something weird and yet still this, to say this hasn't crossed our minds is like ludicrous because it was so far from even the concepts. The world of it crossing our minds. I thought it might just be a leg of his theatre tour. Maybe he's double dipping, David. Maybe he will do some legs of the theatre tour. Maybe invite Novak onto the stage. That'd be good. Honestly. Okay, look, we're at risk of just doing, I mean...
I've got to focus my mind here. I've got to try and think about something. At some point in my life, I've got to think about something else other than the fact that Andy Murray is going to coach Novak Djokovic. Let's try it out for the next half an hour. folks, shall we? OK, let's do our best to talk about Italy reaching the Davies Cup final at two robbers to zero. No need for the doubles. Two singles victories. Matteo Berrettini.
beating Thanasi Kokonakis and Yannick Sinner predictably beating a very valiant Alex Dimonor. One thing that we have learned in the last 24 hours. other than what we've just been discussing, is that Leighton Hewitt, Matt, not a tennis podcast listener. Or if he is, doesn't care for our opinions. Well, he certainly made that clear in the press conference the other day that he's got no intention of listening to me, and that's fine.
Yeah, I mean, look, I was a little bit gutted when I saw the team nominations come out. What was it? Midday today, an hour before the tie got underway at one o'clock. And he'd gone with Kokenakis and Dimonor, just as he had in their quarterfinal. I say gutted because I was hoping that he would roll the dice. I was hoping that he would look at that head-to-head against Yannick Sinner between Dimenor and Sinner and just throw Popperin in.
Because I thought that would be really, really fun. As it turns out, I got my fun from another source today. So, like, the day has still had fun. So, great. But, like, this match in a... Zinner de Menor, to me, was just never going to be close. And I was just hoping to see something different. But I do think it is quite interesting, the fact that he didn't go for that. I think it tells you quite a lot. I think it tells you...
how much faith he has in Tanasi Kokonakis, like he delivered for him the other day. And as much as we made of that number one singles position and who faces Sinner... The most important thing in this tie was trying to get a win in the number two singles position. It was trying to beat Matteo Berrettini. That was always going to be their most likely singles point, whoever they put out and whatever combination.
So I think it really shows how much he values that win that Kokenakis got the other day and how great he was. And he wanted him again in that position over Popperin. And it also just tells you the loyalty he has to Alex Dimonor. And I think Hewitt is stubborn enough and maybe deluded enough because he rates Alex Dimonor so highly.
for him to think, well, he does have a chance of beating Yannick Sinner. Even if we think he doesn't, then I think Hewitt genuinely, there is something inside him that thinks that De Menor could do it, especially maybe in Davis Cup. It maybe also tells you something about how he does view Popperin. Like Popperin has had his career best year. He's had big moments and delivered on them. And yet at this Davis Cup finals, he's not been chosen by...
Leighton Hewitt at all he's just sat on the bench and there was an opportunity you know one or two times to play him and he didn't and I think maybe he's scarred by that by that performance that Popperin put in in last year's final when they played Italy and Popperin lost to Matteo Arnaldi and it wasn't a good performance.
I did ask Hewitt in the press conference how much he agonised about whether to play Popper in or not today. It wasn't my greatest press conference performance. I didn't really go in with the... with the real hard-hitting question, I was just so shook about Andy Murray and Fulham imploding at home to Wolves that...
I thought I've got to get this question in, but also my head is completely scrambled right now. And Hewitt very much just made the point that a lot of captains make, saying it may seem like... I could have put Popperin in, but you're not seeing what's going on in practice. You're not seeing what's going on in behind the scenes. I am. We have a lot of information when we make these decisions and I back my decisions. And from a kokanakis point of view...
Hard to say that it was the wrong call by Hewitt because Kockenakis played really, really well and was extremely close to beating Berrettini. And I know Popperin did get a win over Berrettini in Paris and that is a... a lingering unanswered question about this tie, that if they'd unleashed Popper in, could he have beaten Berrettini? But Kokenakis played really well and was really close, and I don't think it's a bad pick by Hewitt to put him there.
And then I do think it's a bad pick to match Dimonor up against Sinner personally, given that we kind of know how that goes. But I also don't think Popperin would have won. I just don't. Sinner is playing so well. He's not dropping more than four games in a set. And he's playing the best players in the world at the moment and not dropping more than four games in a set. He's an incredible form. Popperin might have...
Worried him a little bit more than De Menor with his firepower. But I think Yannick Sinner would have won, most likely in straight sets. So I don't know if it would have altered the tie altogether if he'd made different picks, but... It just would have been interesting to see a slightly different dynamic. The popper in of it all here is quite interesting, David, I think, because what Hewitt says there is obviously absolutely true. We are not privy to everything that is...
going on behind the scenes. And yet we need to do our jobs, which is analyze what we see rationally and make judgments on it. And that's why we have press conferences, right, to try and ask them to give us that. colour on what's going on and explain what's behind their decisions. So, you know, we're kind of trying to arm ourselves with the best possible information whilst also...
being conscious of the fact that it's not the full picture. But to me, it feels like I know Popperin really fucked up in last year's final. And I know that was not good. And I totally understand why that, you know, that... Popperin's told us that scarred him. I'm sure that scarred Leighton Hewitt as a captain. But I don't really know what kind of year Popperin would have had to have.
Other than like winning a Grand Slam, really. Like in terms of how he's performed this year relative to expectations, relative to the player that we thought he was 12 months ago. You know, he's beaten Novak Djokovic on a... on a huge stage at a grand slam. He has won a Masters 1000 title. He beat Matteo Berrettini, somebody that he could have been up against today. Like, I don't really know what else Dayton Hewitt could have wanted from him.
in order to be given a go. Like, yes, I respect that there's stuff that we don't know about and Hewitt knows what he's doing. But I also feel really bad for Popper in here because I'm kind of like, what else can he do? You know, what else can this guy do to be given a chance? Yeah. Other things being equal, assuming there is nothing.
There's no injury or there's not been some sort of discipline issue or something that really would move things. I think it's... surprising that he wasn't chosen in the end given the the sheer disparity of records there but i mean it's it was so overwhelmingly obvious that Sinner loves playing Dimonor and knows exactly how to play him and Dimonor actually played quite well I mean I thought he did all the things that he can do I mean I'm sure if he was maybe a little fitter
it might be a little more different. But it sounds, 6-3, 6-4, sounds incredibly one-sided and easy. And actually, a lot of the games were close. There was a break right at the start, which... dimonore retrieved immediately he was he was pushing him he was pushing him in the games with lots of juices um but there was never the the x-factor element of What if he really plays well? Because unless Sinner was completely off, that wasn't going to hurt Sinner. Not enough. Whereas I think with...
With Poprin, for a start, Poprin had got a win against him. Okay, a win from three years ago, but he was 1-0 in the head-to-head. He's beaten Novak Djokovic at a grand slam. There aren't many people who do that. And I know Djokovic was massively depleted and flat and all the rest of it. But even so, it still happened. And so...
I think it would have absolutely been worth the roll of the dice. I still think Sinner would have won as well. I agree with you. I mean, he's that good. He's that reliable. And he's kind of got everything. It's taking Carlos Alcaraz at his best. now to sometimes beat him. But just as a sort of selection, I would have gone with Popperin. I think that might have slightly unsettled Italy.
a little more. I do think there's an argument for also Popperin against Berrettini, given that recent head-to-head. But Kocanakis did play really well today and was... really close. So, you know, it wasn't far away. You can take that both ways, David. You can take it as Korkanakas did play really, really well and it still wasn't good enough. So maybe you needed somebody with a higher ceiling.
Sure, but I think that the margin was so fine that it's an understandable decision from Hewitt's perspective to try to get it that close. And then maybe it goes your way, like it did against Shelton. And it'd be a sort of roulette thing, yeah. Yeah. But then... And I think... Yeah, you're right. And I think also there's an element here of... I agree with you. What more can Popperin do to prove he's worthy of a call-up? But...
Kind of like what we were saying about Mazzetti the other day, like Mazzetti's had a really good year and we thought he would be better and we thought he would be different this year in Davis Cup. But Davis Cup is different. Maybe Hewitt really thinks that Kokenakis in this competition is more likely to give him what he wants than Popperin. Yes, Popperin might be a better Tor player than Kokenakis. I don't think anyone would...
would disagree with that based on the years that they've had. But in this competition, I can see why Hewitt would go with Kokenakis over Popperin in that singles. But I do still... think that i would have liked to have seen popper and just have a crack at sinner just because we know how dim and all sinner goes so that's kind of where i'm at with it it that is a fascinating thing isn't it that
Kokonakis is a perfect example of this, isn't it? Like, ceiling, floor and middle in tennis players. Like, he... Hewitt as good as said it the other day, didn't he? Like, I know that the Nazi is not the kind of guy that can produce his... top level in a way that will make him a factor on the tour, week in, week out.
But he knows what his top level is and he knows it's available to him as Davis Cup captain. And if he can get it out of him a few times a year at the Davis Cup, then that's all he in his role. needs from him. It's a sort of slightly sad recognition, isn't it? That I can get something out of you that is not really available to you. in the format that tennis requires the rest of the time. But at least there is this vehicle for players like that.
But, I mean, Kokenakis knows that. And he's happy with that himself. Like, he... He admits it, maybe even more than Hewitt does. He admits that he can't play this level week in, week out. He doesn't like playing every week on the tour. He loses focus. He doesn't have the desire. But in this environment...
He's got those things and he's a better player. And I have been impressed with him this week. I really have. I thought he was... really good today I thought that was a really high quality match between him and Berrettini and you know to talk more about Italy like I was really impressed with Berrettini as well because It's hard to imagine losing a set in a more gut-wrenching...
way than that first set. He was pushing all the way Berrettini through the set to break. He had like break point chances or love 30 chances on kind of every Kocanakis service game. He finally gets the breakthrough at five all. and serves for the set and gets broken. So suddenly he's in a tie break, having probably should have won the set there and then. And then he's two set points up. And on one of those set points, Kokenakis hits a...
Brilliant backhand passing shot down the line, which I'm live in the stadium and I thought Berrettini left. I thought he let it go. I actually haven't seen a replay. I know that you both said like the replays were maybe a little bit inconclusive as well.
But like, no doubt, it was this shot that like sort of hung in the air and just dropped on the line. And of course, in this era of no... line judges there's kind of a little weight as everyone's like was that in or was that out like what's going on here and it turned out to be in and Berrettini kind of fell apart for two or three points and lost the set so suddenly he's in a situation where
He absolutely should have won this set and he's lost it. And that, I think, is the most difficult type of set to come back from. And he was a little bit off it at the start of the second set, Berrettini. He was breakpoint down. Kokanakis had a chance. But after that point, he got it together again. And yeah, I was just really, really impressed with him. The third set was pretty much a serving contest, but...
The overriding memory I will have of this tie will be the shot that Berrettini came up with. A slice forehand winner. after Kokanakis had unleashed the forehand himself into the corner, Berrettini ran over to it and hit one of those sliced forehand defensive shots at such an angle cross-court that it went straight for a winner. And it completely changed the energy in the entire stadium. It was like, from that point on, Berrettini was completely unstoppable.
It stopped everyone in their tracks and I think it rocked, I think it rocked Kokenakis. I think he... slightly went out of his zone because he was suddenly like, oh my God, what an incredible shot that is from Berrettini. And he gave up some unforced errors for the rest of that game. And lost it. And it was just an awesome shot from Berrettini. The fans went absolutely mad. The stadium was packed with Italian fans.
At that point, they changed from chanting Italia to Matteo. Like, it was just a recognition of just, honestly, one of the best shots I've seen live. And it just... changed the entire dynamic of the match and Berrettini broke and then served it out emphatically hitting an ace on match point. And it was a really, really enjoyable match.
I kind of think of Berrettini and Kokonakis together. You know, they're kind of similar. They've got big forehands. They've got backhands that are much weaker. They've both had a lot of injury troubles. I associate them both with that crazy Andy Murray run, the 2023 Australian Open, because if Berrettini had a backhand, we wouldn't have got the Murray-Kocanakis match. Like, to me, those two things are really tied up with one another.
Matt thinks about that back then. All the time. Every day. All the time. So they're kind of connected to me as players. And now they've had this like really epic match against each other. And yeah, there was also such a... premium on the match because everyone knew that Yannick Sinner was going to beat Alex de Menor. So it kind of felt like the tie right there. It felt like when Berrettini won, he hadn't just won, he'd kind of sent Italy through.
And possibly even more because they're massive, massive favourites in that final as well. So it was just such a huge moment. A couple of things struck me whilst watching this match. And it really did get me through those several hours on the tarmac at Malaga Airport. Thank you. Thank you, 5G. One, I feel like every time I watch Matteo Berrettini, I'm surprised by how good his defences are. And that's probably my fault for not sort of recalibrating Matteo Berrettini in my brain. But like, he's...
Because obviously we think of him as big serve, big forehand. Famously, I know I have a big weapon. That's the definitive Matteo Bertini quote, isn't it? But actually, he's really... developed his slice backhand and he is a decent mover for his size and actually is, I think has a decent defensive game for such an offensive player.
And the second thing that struck me was, what a nightmare it is for a player like this to be trying to make a comeback from injury. A player who, even at his best, most of his matches come down to... a couple of points here and there. You know, like, that is the game of Matteo Berrettini. It's about bringing it in the big moments, and that's... That's the thing that it's hardest to bring back, that you can't replicate in practice, that you're in the vicious circle of you need wins.
to be able to have the confidence, but you need the confidence to be able to get the wins. Like, I just... I just really feel for Matteo Bertini as a tennis player and I'd like David for you to describe to me his reaction when he won this match because it was moments after. takeoff. It was in the time between interminable period on the tarmac and in-flight Wi-Fi kicking in. So I didn't...
Despite seeing every shot of this match up and pretty much until this point, I didn't get to see the Matteo Barrettini emotions upon victory. He turned... on the spot towards his support team he was on the baseline at the time and he stood like a statue hands by his side just looked at them and so the time stood still for a couple of seconds And then just this little smile came over his face. And it was one of... I've done it. And then the joy came out. You know, the roaring, the...
the shaking with emotion and the sort of rippling muscles that he has. You know, he's a big strapping guy. And then he came over and he celebrated with his team because he's a real... team player we saw that a year ago when he just turned up to support he's one of the lads he's one of the team and uh i think they really love him i think that they
I think there's certain players on a Davis Cup team or on any international team for your country like that where people are almost happier for you than they are for themselves. And I think he is the guy.
at the moment everybody knows his backstory a bit like you've you've outlined and how it affects you and i think that they all they all love him and feel for him i mean look i know he's had a terrible run with injuries but he's had a really good career he's he's achieved a lot of things but They all know how hard he's worked to get himself back in this position and that it...
It's not guaranteed. He wasn't even picked for that first rubber. Mazzetti was chosen ahead of him. And then when you are picked, you're given that responsibility. everybody knew that he needed to win this rubber because otherwise you're looking at a lottery of a of a doubles rubber and uh and he's playing a guy in kokanakus who's a really difficult customer himself and he's just beaten ben shell
It was knife-edge stuff and he got over the line. I got goosebumps there from David describing that scene. That was fantastic. Also, not to... labour the point about Berrettini's backhand but there was an interesting quote from Berrettini in his press conference saying that when he was 14 years old he was actually planning to switch to a one-hander
And it kind of came up because he did hit a couple of one-handed backhand winners today in the match. Timed a beauty at one point, didn't he? Off the return. Yeah, so good. Kind of like... picking it up off his toes and hitting it for a winner. And he said that when he then ended up working with Vincenzo, who was kind of his long-term coach, Vincenzo said to him, no.
Don't switch to a one-handed backhand because a two-handed backhand is more effective in the modern game. It's better on return. It's better on clay. Stick with it. But Berrettini... If you switch a one-hander, it'll be even worse. Well, Berrettini says, I always joke with him that we made a bad decision because my one-hander is better. Wow. So yeah, I thought that was a really fun line. Is there further evidence that Matteo Barrettini is a really self-aware tennis player?
Potentially too self-aware. I'm always fascinated by that fine line between self-belief and delusion in great sports people. Sometimes it's only results that show where the difference is. And maybe... Matteo Berrettini is too self-aware and too much of a realist about himself and about his abilities. I don't know. But there's also the curse. Most of it is down to the curse. But hey.
Maybe this week he'll beat the curse. Look, we'll be back in part two to look ahead to the final and whether Matteo Berrettini will beat his curse. All the big names are here. Ooh, who is that? I think she was in the movie about that really big shark. No, not her. The florist. She's automating invoices on the go so she can spend more time on that flower wall. QuickBooks can save you up to eight hours. There's digging. And then there's super digging.
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Welcome back to the Tennis Podcast, where we look ahead now to the Davis Cup final for 2024, the Netherlands against Italy. There is an undeniable favourite here. The favourite, it's no secret, is the team that contains the world number one, Yannick Senna. He, we assume, will take on Talon Greekspor in his match.
assume, Matt, that it will be Matteo Berrettini in number two for Italy, taking on Burtig van der Zandtrupp for the Netherlands. Disappointingly in this tie, as much as there's a lot to look forward to. probably no team selection drama to look forward to. And that is what I've been living for this week until the Murray Djokovic news. That's what has sustained me.
Yes, you and me both, but I think I agree with you. The interesting thing about this is that they've met already this year in Davis Cup. It's going to be, I think, a Davis Cup first because of the new format where we have, you know, group stages. It is now possible for teams to meet twice. They played in the group stages in September and Italy won. And Italy won without Yannick Sinner. So that's definitely very bad news for the Netherlands, I would say.
Berrettini beat Burtick van der Zanskoe on that day. I believe it was three sets, but it was a win for Berrettini. And then Flavio Caballi beat Talon Greekspoor in the second singles match. And then the Dutch did end up winning the doubles 2-1, the overall tie score there, because they have to play all the matches in a group format. So that's why the doubles was played, even though it was over in the singles. Berrettini is 4-0 against Baltic van der Zanskoop.
They've also met since they played at the Davis Cup. They played in Tokyo and Berrettini won that one. So you would think that seems to be quite a good matchup for Berrettini. And Sinner is 5-0 against Greekspore. And they've played a lot recently. Like all five of those matches have been in the last two years. The interesting thing about that is that Greekspor is actually getting closer against Sinner. Whereas most players in the world are not. You know, Sinner is establishing...
dominance and control in head-to-heads. Greek Sport is a guy whose recent matches with Sinner have actually been closer. He's won the first set the last two times they've played. And I remember those matches and... he has caused him trouble and like they have often been in like quick, fast conditions. Like I think they've played in like on an indoor court, maybe in Rotterdam in the past and like...
Greekspor, with those big flat hits, can trouble him and rush him and has caused him problems. But Sinnoh has ended up winning all five of their matches. And it's very tough to imagine a scenario where... where winning the first set kind of isn't the best case scenario for Greek sport tomorrow. Like maybe he'll do that.
But I probably would still be backing Sinner to win in straight sets, given the form that he's in right now. Sinner has actually won 26 consecutive sets across 13 matches. He's on an eight match. davis cup winning streak and a 14 match win streak on tour and he hasn't lost a match in straight sets all year and if he doesn't lose in straight sets to greek sport he'll be the first male player to
to achieve that feat since Federer in 2005. Like, it's absolutely astonishing the numbers that Sinner's putting up right now. And, you know, other than... intangibles and the impact of the dutch wall like i cannot really logically make a case that that the dutch get this i think Possibly some Berrettini fatigue might be something that they could possibly cling to. That was a two hour 40 match today. It was emotional. It was pretty physical at times.
But if they're in a situation where they're having to beat Yannick Sinner like Australia were today, I think it's game over. Again, it comes down to trying to win that number two singles. It's not... it's not a weakness for Italy. Berrettini's bloody, bloody good, but it's a relative weakness compared to Sinner and you've got to hone in on that. But, you know, the record's not good for van der Zanskorp. Yeah, look...
This, on paper, comes down to the Berrettini-Wan des Anticholp match, doesn't it? The doubles, we're assuming Yannick Sinner and Berrettini will play that doubles. That is absolutely not a given for even... either side but like it would feel I think it would feel on a knife edge if it went to the doubles this tie whether that played out in practice who knows but I think that's how we'd feel going into it so David I feel like
This tie is coming down to Matteo Bertini against Burtick van der Zandtschelp. And that to me says, throw everything you know about these two players out of the window. They're going to be stepping onto this court knowing that an entire Davis Cup hinges on them. For Matteo Berrettini knowing that, OK, yes, Italy won the Davis Cup last year, they'll probably win it again because they... They have Yannick Sinner. He's Italian. But for him personally, this could be it. You know?
it really could be it for him in terms of being part of an Italian Davis Cup winning side. I hope not, probably not, but I do feel like he's a player that doesn't take anything for granted because of what he's been through. And on the Dutch side in Bertik van der Zanskorp, I know he's barely got a pulse, but Holland, the Netherlands are unlikely finalists here.
they would be unlikely finalists again in the near future. I'm not saying they won't do that. Like they are greater than the sum of their parts, but this... feels like once in a lifetime for these Dutch players. And that match to me, for all of those reasons, feels like a nerve fest. It feels like tennis might just go out the window and it's... Who can hold your nerve? Yes, I think so. I mean, look, Berrettini's the better player. He has had the career, the...
The highlights we've seen from Boatik van der Zanschalk when he's really on are very high. But I really trust Berrettini to understand what his own game is and just put it on the court, even with the nerves, you know, and because he's that kind of guy. He doesn't overcomplicate matters. He just plays.
And I think that sort of makes it a little more straightforward for him because he doesn't think about 10 different options for winning points. He's got his patterns and he'll just go out there and it's up to van der Zanschorp. Do you think that's a general rule, David? Do you think nerves are more of a factor for players that have more options, for players that don't have a very simple kind of pattern dictated game?
I definitely think it's something you can fall back on if you are nervous, but I don't think it necessarily is cause and effect. No, I think Berrettin is quite a particular case. I mean, he feels nerves. I'm sure he does. And I'm sure he sort of... It's not lost on him how big a deal this is, but he just knows what he is and who he is. I mean, he's been in a Wimbledon final. He's had huge matches in his life, and he played well in them. He didn't win, didn't beat Novak.
because Djokovic is too good. And that's what I think it would take here. He's not playing as well as he did when he reached the women of final, but he's not playing an opponent like Novak Djokovic either. It would take... An absolute worldly of a performance, I think, from Boatik van der Zaunershop to win this match. He's got a very, very high level when he's playing his very best stuff. I mean, I also... I think we tease about his lack of outward emotion, but I think...
I think actually he is probably in turmoil underneath it all, or in his own way, a bit like Elena Rebacchini. There's some players who just don't show you these things, but there's a lot going on under the surface, I'm sure, and we've heard how he... He very nearly wanted to give up the sport because he was probably depressed with how it was all going. So, yeah, it's the biggest match of his life. And in some ways, even though...
Berrettini's reached a women in the final. In some ways, this is the biggest match of his life because it would mean so much to him to win it. And I think he will. I think he will be... pretty hard to stop and i gotta we've talked a lot about captaincy we've not mentioned the name philippo valandri at all and actually i think he's a very quietly efficient and effective captain
He had one duffer of a performance from Lorenzo Massetti to Navigate and he immediately dispatched him from the line-up. Yeah, you're right. Ruthless. And I think ruthlessness is... Is required. Yeah. He made the call, didn't he? Not always required, but ruthlessness needs to be available to Davis Cup captains. Yeah. And, you know, he dispatched the doubles pairing and he put in Sinner and...
And you might say, well, yeah, of course, world number one. But that's a really good doubles team he put out. And Berrettini, you don't know what you're going to get with him when he hasn't played in goodness knows how long or at least at this level and certainly in the doubles. And they came out and they played really well and they beat the Argentine team. It was a really good performer.
and then he comes off the back of that doesn't flicker chooses Berrettini wins on he goes I think I think he's a good captain he he sort of fuses a togetherness in that team. You know, you've got a lot of big characters and kind of potentially egos, and yet they seem such a good group. Very close. And actually he... I think I'm right in saying he did the same last year as well in terms of like bringing in Arnaldi and like that number two Italian position wasn't a sure thing.
And, you know, in the final, he got the call right because Arnaldi won. And yeah, like he's had decisions to make, even though he's also had Yannick Sinner on his team. He's very good at dropping Lorenzo Mazzetti. That's basically what we're saying, yes. Yeah. Right, so I think we're all edging Italy in the final. I think it, look.
There's a clear favourite here, isn't there? Like, I don't think there's going to be many people that aren't picking Italy, but I also don't think there's going to be many people totally discounting the Netherlands. Because of the strength of that doubles team, like if they can win that number two... Oh, then it'd be interesting. Which is not a lock for Italy. They're the favourites, but it's not a lock the way Yannick Sinner feels.
Yeah, in terms of a really safe bet at the moment. And then it... if it gets seriously interesting in the doubles. And what about the Berrettini body? That's the one final thing I would point out. What about the Berrettini body, David? That body can break down any time. I'm sorry to say he's pulled... abdominal muscles multiple times on a tennis court. And I really hope that's not what we're talking about this time tomorrow night. But the Netherlands...
Headline in the Daily Express tomorrow, what about the Berrettini body, says David Law. I mean, I just think the Netherlands... we'll be knowing that that is a possibility as well. And they've just got to hang in there and play and then see if they can get it to that doubles. Because if they're in that doubles, they've got a real chance.
And isn't it interesting how many times we've said that this week? If they can get it to the doubles, wouldn't it be interesting? And I did see a tweet from Christopher Clary today talking about how like... It is maybe a bit of a shame that the doubles is always the last match. Like, it's great when it's a decider and we get it, but... sometimes these ties would be more interesting if like the doubles were first or the doubles were second because because then it might allow like
the weaker team to get a point on the board and then that influences the singles going forward. And I don't know whether there's a possibility for the order of the matches to be decided an hour before the tie or...
or whatever it is. But there is just this kind of thing in tennis that doubles is always last. You know, if you're playing twice on an order of play, it's always you play your singles and then you play your doubles kind of after a suitable rest later. And the Davis Cup in this... new format has kind of it's kind of adopted that policy and we always have the doubles laughs and it's brilliant when we get it it does feel like a lot of brilliant
interesting doubles matches have kind of been left on the table a little bit so i don't know whether that's something for the format going forward but it's certainly something i think about um and just final point a quote from Paul Harhouse in his press conference yesterday when obviously he didn't know who they would play but he was talking about potentially playing Italy and he said for us to be in the final
is a bigger achievement than for them to win it. Given, you know, the fact that they haven't got a Yannick Sinner and they haven't got as many players and they haven't got the sort of... you know, infrastructure of tennis maybe that Italy have got. So like you could read that quote and think, oh, well, are they not that bothered about winning it?
But I really don't think that is the case. Like I really think that Paul Harhouse might be able to like spin this in the way they did when they played Spain as kind of a bit of a, you know, like let's lean into the underdog role that we've got here. And let's just make life a nightmare for Italy. Like we've already achieved a great thing. We can be really happy with our tournament. It's a big, big deal for us to be in a first ever Davis Cup final.
Try and go out there with as little pressure as you can and just disrupt, like put all the pressure onto Italy. I think that's going to kind of be the Netherlands tactic here. And I think that kind of makes sense. It worked for them against Spain. It did. They were the perfect disruptors. And I just think level-wise it's going to be difficult. You know, Wenders Antikorp is not playing... 38-year-old way beyond his former self, Rafael Nadal. He's playing Berrettini, who...
played really, really well today. And then Greekspor, you know, he lost to Alcaraz and now he's got to play Sinner. Like, just the level might just be too much. But I do back Haarhaus and I back the Dutch team and vibe generally. to go in there with a with kind of the right balance there of that attitude like underdogs but also believing that they can disrupt and upset and with that crowd as well like it'll give them a it'll give them a
It's going to be fun. We'll be back with a podcast at the end of it all tomorrow. We'll be back in part three discussing capital T, capital N, the news. There's digging, and then there's super digging. There's food. And then there's Baker's Superfoods. Made with selected natural ingredients and tasty chicken. There's food. And then there's Baker's Superfoods.
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Welcome back to the Tennis Podcast where it is time. It is time for us to process the unprocessable. Andy Murray is going to coach Novak Djokovic. That is the news that landed. It's okay to laugh. It is still okay to laugh. That is the news that landed just a few hours ago. The press release that we received from Andy Murray's people read thus. Novak Djokovic has appointed Andy Murray to coach him.
into and through the Australian Open. Novak Djokovic commented, I'm excited to have one of the greatest rivals on the same side of the net as my coach. Looking forward to the start of the season and competing in Australia alongside Andy, with whom I've shared many exceptional moments on the Australian soil.
Andy Murray commented, I'm going to be joining Novak's team in the off-season, helping him to prepare for the Australian Open. I'm really excited for it and looking forward to spending time on the same side of the net as Novak. for a change, helping him to achieve his goals. I don't even know what question to ask. Like, Matt just... Download your mind, please, on this news. I'm wondering whether anyone's even listened to the first 50 minutes of this podcast or just skip straight to this part.
Like so many thoughts. I think trying to like be rational and trying to like make sense of it is, is. is a hard thing to do in, in the moment because it is just so shocking. It was kind of funny. Like I did. I was giddy when the news came out. Like I was kind of laughing about it as much as anything. And I think that also comes through in the actual video that Novak Djokovic posted. Like he's used a...
caption to say that Murray never even liked retirement anyway, which is a throwback to Murray's tweet when he retired from tennis saying that he never even liked tennis anyway. There's kind of a... There's kind of an amusing element to it. And the voiceover is, you know, there's this sort of dramatic music over it. It's all a little bit sort of cheeky and funny. And I do wonder whether that's part of it.
We're constantly trying to work out what Novak Djokovic's motivations are right now. Like, what is keeping him playing tennis, given that he has completed the sport? And I do think... It's not what was driving him necessarily all those years ago. I think obviously a big motivating factor is trying to win one more Grand Sam title, at least. Get to 25.
absolutely will be a factor but i but i also think like having some fun like having motivation from a from a rival from murray doing something that's really attention grabbing and getting the spotlight back on him at a time when you know people are talking about Alcaraz and Sinner a lot I do think all these things are kind of part of the reason why Novak Djokovic would be interested in having Murray as his coach plus the fact that Murray has
studied Novak Djokovic's game his whole career. He knows Novak Djokovic's game as well as anyone does. And I think Djokovic is... is humble enough, to be honest, to be able to ask Murray for advice and accept it and know that Murray has got good things to tell him. And Murray's also studied the rivals that... that Novak Djokovic is coming up against now in Alcaraz and Sinner. You know, he'd have thought about their games. He'd have thought about what it's like if he plays them. So...
You know, there are some tennis reasons why that kind of makes sense for Djokovic as well. Like there's so much going on here. And that's all great stuff. And I don't disagree with any of that. But David... That's the Novak Djokovic angle. Like, what about the Andy Murray angle here? Like, why? Why has he done this? And look, we... We're doing this analysis not knowing who approached who. Like, I do think there's a difference here between a thing that you can't say no to.
once it's presented to you and a thing that you have the idea for and go, hey, do you want me to coach you? And we just don't know. But I hope we will find out very soon. All I want to know in this world is who picked up the phone to who. But at this moment, we don't know that. So it's pure speculation, but, you know.
That's what we make a trade in here on the Tennis Podcast. David, what do you think of it from the Andy Murray perspective? Well, first of all, I would be very surprised if it wasn't Novak Djokovic who came up with the idea and made the call. I think then it is a question, assuming that is the case, and I don't have intel on it. It's just my own hunch on it. Then it's a question of what you just said. How can you say no?
If you're Andy Murray, how do you say no to Novak Djokovic? For a start, the greatest tennis player of all time in terms of Grand Sam titles, the lone survivor of the big four. still going and trying to win number 25, keep off these young lads and all the rest of it. So there's a lot there. I mean...
I am surprised that Andy wants to get out there immediately again and travel all the way to Australia and do another. On one hand, I'm surprised. On another hand, I know how hard it is to give that up.
be doing it unless it was Novak Djokovic or something equally exciting and you know thought provoking and I think that that is what the other thing is Andy Murray's just a very curious person he wants to he's curious about things if you if you find yourself in his company and and he's not in a rush he will ask you more questions than he'll answer he wants to know about what you think about stuff like us he if he sat with us he'd want to know what we think about x y and z subject
and how things work and and he's always trying to learn he's so interested in the world and in and i think for his perspective i mean what an opportunity to see if he can make marginal gains that that make the difference for Novak Djokovic at a time when Djokovic is searching and maybe starting to lose something at the age he is. And I think for Djokovic...
I think Djokovic has wanted to hang out with Andy Murray for about 20 years because he's always regarded themselves as friends. And I think the rivalry... kind of gets in the way of all that. And I don't think Andy's necessarily been all that forthcoming for that sort of thing. And now that doesn't matter anymore. And so here we are.
And that is one element of it that really fascinates me. Coaching arrangement, no matter how well this goes, I don't think they're ever going to have the heartwarming vibe between them. that Fedor and Nadal have, you know, like, I just don't think that's them and their personalities. And, you know, I don't, I don't. I think the sort of animosity between them has fluctuated over the years but I don't think they've ever been friends.
So I'm thinking sort of why, you know, coaching someone involves spending a lot of time with them. You know, Andy Murray is one of the reasons for retiring is that, you know. he can't justify kind of being away from his family and that other life that he has if it's not sort of... worthwhile and valuable and something that is amounting to something. And I don't know, like in a way that I really wasn't expecting, I was...
I was very emotionally struck by a lot of the social media content that came out this week surrounding Rafael Nadal's retirement about the big four. A lot of the posts along the lines. of like greying out Federer, Nadal, Murray. Some of them incorporated Serena as well and had sort of Djokovic there. illuminated in some way as the last remaining flag bearer for a dynasty, for an era, for...
for a simpler time almost. And I do wonder if, look, I'm quite sure this decision was at the very least in the works. before any of those social media posts were made and probably made eons ago. But I do wonder if there's an element of, you know, it's easier for Andy Murray to... see himself as an ally to Novak Djokovic now that Novak Djokovic is the last remaining representative of an era. It's almost like...
Murray is teaming up with Djokovic it's like a sort of and look I'm on I'm on unsafe territory here because I'm not sure I've ever actually seen a Marvel movie, but I feel like I know what they're about. Like there's an aging group of superheroes and there's like a new group of superheroes that are coming and like, you know. where a sort of elderly Gandalf-type figure comes along to just try and bolster up the current generation and see if they can make one last stand. And I...
I don't know if that's how Andy Murray is seeing it, but that's certainly how I'm perceiving it. And that makes me think of something that Pam always says about... One of her motivations for coaching Donna Vekic and coaching generally is almost like trying to...
Do things with your player that you couldn't do in your own career maybe and I think there might be a slight element here where like Murray's body had had failed him like in these last few years like marie's body wasn't ready to be competing with these guys like alcaraz and sinner and everything but you know that his mind was still like
working overtime in terms of like how he would beat them and and how he would match up against them and it's almost like okay well I I can't implement those ideas but I know a guy who still might be able to, and he's of my generation, and, you know, let's see. Like, let's see what these ideas...
how good they were and just download them into Novak Djokovic. And like, yeah, like kind of... Finally win an Australian Open. Well, I mean, Lendl won a Wimbledon through Murray. And like... That's a litmus test, isn't it? Like... Ultimately, the over-under here for success for Andy Murray as a coach of Novak Djokovic is does Novak Djokovic win the Australian Open? It's incredibly binary. What if he beat Sinner and then lost to Alcaraz? You know, like...
There's a world, I think, where Djokovic kind of has a more successful tournament but doesn't win. sure but it's hard at this stage of Djokovic's career to talk about that as like yeah it's good and like something to build on like That's results orientated though, isn't it? Because I think there's a real chance that Novak Djokovic isn't playing.
this year unless he has something like Andy Murray as his coach. Because I think what he's searching for, I mean, you may remember I was advocating he named this as his last year so that he could have that as a motivational element in it. itself i think he needs something to get him pumped i don't think he's been he won the olympic gold brilliant that was that's all he ever wanted
And honestly, I don't think he gave us stuff about anything else after that for the rest of the year. If he's going to do 2025, he needs to be pumped. And now he's going to be pumped. And I totally get that. I'm just... I'm just gobsmacked that Andy Murray is what he reached for to get him pumped. David, you have been speaking to somebody who knows what it's like to coach Noback Djokovic. What have you got for us?
Yes, I immediately fired off a note to Goran Ivanovic. And I think I broke the news to him, actually. So after the initial sort of... laughing and joking about how... Andy Murray doesn't seem to want to move away from the stressful life of a tennis pro because it's not going to get any less stressful working with this guy. And that was said very much tongue-in-cheek and with a smile on his face from Goran because I think he loves no value.
even though he accepts that it was a bloody nightmare working with him at times. I asked him, on a scale of one to ten, if I'd have told you a couple of months ago... that this is going to happen how surprised would you have been on a scale of one to ten and he said zero he said i i he said Nothing is impossible with Novak Djokovic. You just learn that as time goes on. I've learned not to ever expect that something...
can't or won't happen in terms of what he'll achieve or in terms of what he'll want to do in order to achieve. I mean, you know, and I think Andy Murray... Incidentally, you know, if we talk to all of our colleagues in the media, you go back 20 years, the number of times we've thought we've got this guy worked out only for him to do something that we've never thought of. You know, Andy Murray, when he announced...
he was working with Ivan Lendl for the first time, when he announced that he was working with Amelie Maresmo, when he went back to Lendl, and then again to Lendl. And listen to this list of names that Novak Djokovic has worked with over the years. Mark Woodford, Todd... Martin, Boris Becker, Andre Agassi, Mario Anchic, Radek Stepanek, Goran Ivanovic. I mean, he's worked his way through so many different minds of the sport. Tough scene for Pepe Imel's not to be on that one.
And obviously Marion Vida being the ever-present, but look at all those names that have played the sport and that he's been trying to learn from over the years. He's another one. They're kindred spirits. What a spectrum. My reaction was a 10 on the shock scale and Goran is claiming his reaction was a zero. I mean, the other thing is, you know, it did make me think of other players.
reaching the very latter stages of their career and going for appointments like this. Roger Federer hiring Stefan Edberg, his hero. He basically hired his hero. Because he wanted to hang out with his hero and get excited and learn an old-style version of the sport. Martina Navratilova was coached by Billie Jean King to her ninth Wimbledon.
And my absolute favourite was Ian F. on the barge, our online community, who said, what about when Rocky Balboa hired Apollo Creed, the guy that had beaten him in, that he'd beaten in Rocky 1 and Rocky 2? hired him in Rocky III to coach Rocky against Clubber Lang for the rematch. Did Rocky win? Yes, he did. Completely overhauled his style of boxing as well. So you know my next question, don't you?
Is Novak Djokovic going to win the Australian Open? Well, I'll tell you what, I think he's got a hell of a lot better chance now than he had about... Six hours ago, or at least before this appointment was made. And that's not because I think Andy Murray's going to make some otherworldly difference to his game. I think there are definitely tweaks. I mean, I think it'd be very interesting to go back to the Labour Cup of a couple of years ago.
listen to their conversations. I actually remember Novak Djokovic coaching Andy Murray more than the other way around, which was fascinating. I remember that too, and it was gripping. Yes, and I really want to go and seek that footage out now and see if we can read anything into all of it. But I think the bigger point is we needed something.
Novak Djokovic needed something to get him on that plane feeling something other than, oh, it's the Australian Open again. He needs to go there and be absolutely buzzing. And now he will be. There's no question about it. It might not work, but... We've seen what he's like when he's motivated. He beat Alcaraz, for God's sake, just after he'd been thrashed by him at Wimbledon. I mean, that was extraordinary. Do you know who else is buzzing, David? Who's that?
Me. This Australian Open is going to feature Novak Djokovic coached by Andy Murray. Igor Shrontek just displaced as world number one, being coached by Wim Fissett. Irina Sabalenka trying to hold on to number one. Elena Rebacna being coached by Goran Ivanovic. Their off-season starts in a week and a half, by the way. I've got that info. Good stuff, David. Good stuff. Al Karaz going for the career Grand Slam in Australia and he would be the youngest man ever to achieve that.
Like, no offence to my friends and family who I'm very looking forward to spending lots of time with over the next festive month, but get me to Australia. God, hook it into my veins. Gosh, yeah, like me too. There's one thing I found out today, which I think is quite interesting.
is the timing of this struck me as maybe a bit weird. Like the fact that it was announced during the Davis Cup semi-final, you know, it's quite a big tennis thing happening. And then this news... breaks like you know if it wasn't if it wasn't so exciting if we weren't so excited about it like we might have been annoyed that it was like detracting from
the tennis that was happening at the time like you know there's kind of a whole off season for this to for this kind of coaching news to be dropped and announced but what i found out and i've i've had this confirmed is that Murray and Djokovic were both supposed to be in Malaga yesterday if Spain were still in the Davis Cup. You know, people were wondering about... Where was Novak Djokovic on Tuesday? Well, the answer was...
It had been planned that Spain would win on Tuesday and Rafael Nadal's retirement ceremony, which they obviously did on Tuesday because they had to, but they wanted to do it on Friday. And Djokovic and Murray were going to be there together. the crowd confirmed great sourcing Matt if it isn't obvious Matt hadn't pre-warned us about this mic drop moment and I am
Speechless, which as a presenter of a podcast is really problematic. And I blame you, Matt. Wow. And you just wonder, would they have announced it this week if they were... together? I don't know. How different would it have looked if they'd ended up being there together? I like to think that Andy Murray wouldn't have wanted to announce it while Team GB were in the Billie Jean King Cup.
And I guess, you know, it would leak pretty quickly once they start working together. So that gives you probably a window of a few days a week. assuming that, you know, they're going to start working together, but maybe they already are. But, wow. Okay. Really? I'm shook again, Matt. I thought I'd rinsed out my quota of shook for today. And like...
more thoughts and like unanswered questions and just general fascinations running through my mind are like, what if Novak Djokovic draws Jack Draper early on? Like that. would be absolutely fascinating because we know how much Andy Murray likes Jack Draper and I think most of us had earmarked Murray is a potential future coach for Jack Draper. And yeah, it's Novak Djokovic. And also like...
What is the vibe going to be between them on court? You know, Murray famously shouting at his coaches. Is he going to be a sort of coach that takes that? Djokovic famously shouts at his coaches. But will he be like that? Andy Murray. I think that's going to be just riveting to absorb. Honestly, I think any Brit that Djokovic could draw, that would be... awkward weird fascinating insert adjective here but yeah obviously some Brits more weird and awkward and fascinating than others for sure
Oh my God, I can't believe it's real. I can't believe we're having this conversation. It's great. I really can't. Wow. Wow. Okay. I mean, I'm sure we'll end up talking about it tomorrow to some degree as well. Maybe we'll get more... colour or info by tomorrow I don't know but we will be back with a podcast tomorrow regardless to talk about the Davis Cup final between Italy
And the Netherlands. We will have Phoebe with us. Phoebe didn't know what she was in for this fortnight, did she? This has been one of the wildest trips I've ever been on. Like, what is going to happen tomorrow? Absolutely bonkers stuff. Thank you, Phoebe, for being along for the ride. Thank you, of course, to our mascots for being along for...
All the ride of 2024. Of course, the dearly departed Darwin, Francis and Haida and Soma. Hello and thank you to our executive producers, Greg, Chris, Jamie and... Jeff. And hello to Billie Jean, who met me at Heathrow Airport today, her first Heathrow Airport greeting experience. It was... Well, it was certainly delightful for me. I can't speak for Billie Jean. And she, of course, is sponsored by Billie Jean King and Alana Kloss. And Matt, we have shout outs.
We have Christine Tenley in Atlanta. Hello, Christine. Like Christine Truman, who we did a Tennis Relived episode on this year. That was a real highlight, wasn't it, this year? Wasn't it just meeting and I know you'd met her before, but for me, it was the first meeting with Christine Truman at Wimbledon. And that was incredibly special. do give that a listen folks if you haven't yet wimbledon runner-up all those years ago
French Open champion. All British final. I mean, you know, it's more than 60 years ago. Christine, thank you anyway for being a friend of the pod. Thank you. And Atlanta, of course, where Lindsay Davenport and Andre Agassi won. Olympic gold. We did a pandemic relived episode on that. So thank you. We've also got Karen Varley in Guernsey. We've met Karen and Karen is... We know Karen. ...good friends with Woolly. We know Karen.
Karen from Guernsey is what Karen very helpfully refers to herself as. Karen is absolutely delightful. And we have Karen Hashanov. Yes. Yeah. Karen has specifically asked if there's a female tennis, Karen, i.e. not hat to knock. Matt, you need to do better at intervening before I stitch myself up. Oh, but I really enjoy it. Okay, well, if you're going to enjoy my downfall, then it is at least incumbent on you to come up with a female Karen. I can't. David?
I'm sure that at some point Pam Shriver has told us about a tennis Karen and I'm feverishly trying to find it, but I can't. There must be loads of tennis Karens. Yeah. That's right. There's a very good tennis journalist from the New York Times called Karen Krause, who worked on the tennis circuit a lot. And she was great, really good interviewer in the press conferences. But I'm struggling.
with female Karens. I'm sorry, on the tennis circuit. Do you think that was what Karen was hoping for when she asked for a female Karen? All due respect to Karen Krause, but we've... We've probably let Karen from Guernsey down there, haven't we? We're going to have to work on it. Yeah, Karen Cross. I remember Karen Cross. Who's that? Yes. British tennis player. Wikipedia, Matt, tells me that she...
She is a left-handed British former tennis player. Yes. She competed at eight Wimbledons. I got told off by the ITF's Nick Imerson the other day for not remembering a British tennis player by the name of Louise, Louise Latimer. Because she was from your neck of the woods. Yeah, I know, but I also expect to be told off about not remembering Karen Cross, and rightfully so. I hope we've done you proud there, Karen. Thank you.
And finally, we have Leslie Gianelli in New Haven. I think our third maybe New Haven shout out of the week. Hello, Leslie. Like Leslie Bowery. Like Leslie Allen. Well, both. These are both people. Both tennis players. Yeah, absolutely. And Leslie says, I never miss a pod. And as a figure skater, I always enjoy Catherine's occasional skating references.
Thank you, Leslie. Leslie will have enjoyed my Nathan Chen reference yesterday evening. Leslie Allen, who made a great appearance on Althea Gibson. Tennis Free Lives podcast. And Leslie Bowery who makes an appearance on our Instagram every Australian Open. Well, her statue anyway. Leslie Bowery. How do I explain this? SOS. Well, when we recorded an emergency podcast at the Australian Open...
In what year was that? 2020, when Serena Williams lost to Chong Wong. We recorded it standing up next to the statue of Leslie Bowery that they have in Garden Square. And it's such a fond memory for us recording that pod that we go back to it every year that we're in Garden Square and take a photo. It's real. We're here in Australia with the Leslie Bowery. or bust, isn't it? It's the head. Yes.
Indeed. Yeah. Leslie is a very important name in in tennis podcast folklore. So thank you, Leslie. And I think there was a. I think there was a figure skating coach who. passed away this year called Leslie Norfolk Pierce, who maybe Leslie is aware of, but there you go for a figure skating reference. Thank you. Leslie, thank you, Christine. Thank you, Karen. Thank you to all of our friends of the Tennis Podcast. We have a Tennis Relived episode coming your way next week about the Davis Cup.
And we'll be recording that in just a few days' time now, extraordinarily. How I'm going to... be able to not talk about Andy Murray coaching Novak Djokovic at any point in the next sort of six months. I don't know, but I will de-scramble my brain and be able to... focus properly. I promise. Hopefully in the next 24 hours because we'll be back tomorrow to talk about the Davis Cup final between Italy and the Netherlands. We will speak to you then.
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