Deep Dive Interview - Meet the King!

I was texting last week with terrible producer Seth and he mentioned that he listens to podcasts at 1.5 speed at least . So that's your company , Castleton . How do you ?

Well , today , at the very intersection of those hopes and dreams , we have with us for the very first time on this , the planet earth , the king of the butter cops . Everybody welcome , Jeff .

I was optimistic Boss and coach whispered behind my back that I was insane and this will never catch on . And then , when we opened the podcast up to subscribers , we luckily had two people that were way ahead of the pack . It worked out that it ended up being two people right out of the gate . As soon as the sucker opened up , we had two subscribers .

The first was our Queen of the Buttercups , jenna . You were second by about three minutes . And then the third , which is about two hours later , was Anya . Who Buttercup Anya . She is just awesome because she was in Poland at the time and going through a bunch of oh . She was just really isolated in Poland .

She's Australian and now she's back in Australia and she's over in the Buttercup chat and everybody's happy to see her again . So it's wonderful . But you three were really sort of ahead of the crew and I want to say , from the bottom of our hearts , thank you for that .

I'm going to get emotional , but thank you for that vote of confidence , because yeah , it was quite easy it was a response to the way you made us , as Buttercups , feel .

Or if I close a drawer and like , let's say , I'm getting the kids ready for school , I'll close a drawer and like a little bit of a sock is sticking out . I'm like I got to tuck that back in , got to put it all the way . But I guess I'm alone in this . Nobody coach you .

So in my case and Coach , I'll let you speak to this too , but I know that there was the specter of punishment and if I let my studies wane at all or anything like that . And no , coach had some parents that were pretty demanding and expected a lot from him . Walk us through how your schooling experience was .

Not only did I have undiagnosed ADHD , but I had a diagnosed learning disability , and every single day at school was a struggle . I always like to say that I've been tested . I am intelligent , but I learn at a different rate and I learn a different way than other people do .

So schooling was always an absolute struggle and a grind , and so my parents kind of were just happy that I went and just happy that I passed when I passed , just because they knew that it was a big struggle for me .

And fortunately , or unfortunately , when I got to the age of 16 and I had the choice to struggle or not struggle , I took the not struggle route . Little did I know that it led to many struggles in my adulthood , but at the time it was the easy route . But yeah , high school was a real struggle for me , especially and if I had a dollar for any .

Every time I was called a name by teachers and things like that that were rightfully so frustrated with I wasn't the easiest student to deal with because of my struggles and so that was frustrating for them . So I was called the R-word on a couple different occasions from teachers . Oh , shit . Yeah .

So when I became 16 and I didn't have to put up with that struggle anymore , I chose to not . Yeah , totally get that .

But I'll say , having taught , I know the frustration of feeling like what's happening here and I'll say from the other side of it , one of the things I learned post diagnosis as I was reading and learning about ADHD and that's just my personality , as you can tell from the way I've treated Ted Lasso is I'm gonna get into it , I'm gonna get into it and the

number of people who shared the experience of obviously you can do it , you pay attention when it's X , y or Z . So it really must be that you're not applying yourself , that you're not trying .

And in some ways I came to doubt that about myself because I was like but that's true , actually , like I'm at just before we got on , we were sort of as people do , talking about the weather and it came up that it's 38 degrees in Chicago and that we then figured out that in the rest of the world , where everyone isn't being stubborn and clinging to their

own ways of measuring , that that would be 3.3 degrees and I pretty close between three and four degrees . I could have told you that answer . I didn't do it because it weirds people out , but I have in my brain , stuck from high school , that F equals 9 , fifth C plus 32 .

Right , like so I have that and I can do that on the fly and have done it before . But so I knew . But then I'd be , it'd be time to study for whatever you know science test or whatever and my brain would be like I don't care , I don't care what it is in Fahrenheit , I don't care what is in Celsius .

Let's go watch a football game , and that's a particularly frustrating place to be , because you're as frustrated as the person who's being frustrated with you and even , as I hear you right now being empathetic to the teachers who's you know , we're expressing their frustration appropriately or not .

There's part of me that goes yeah , the frustration is reasonable , but shouldn't we get to where , if someone's showing that they can do it and that we're seeing them not do it in these specific ways , that we ask something beyond ?

Why won't you try harder and I guess I , I I guess I find myself sorry in my own life , but in specific ways that you just described it , nobody said like hmm , that's interesting , you know what I mean Like Jeff seems to be trying on X , y and Z fronts .

So maybe it's not just a matter of try harder on A , b and C , as opposed to sort of that dismissive piece .

Anyway , you didn't ask me for that , but it just stands out to me as , like a to almost agree with the frustration , I think probably leads to some feeling like well , you got a point there , as opposed to like no , no , no , no , that's not what's going on here .

They actually did want to have me tested around first grade because I kept putting my shoes on wrong feet and I kept putting my D's and my B's backwards and those types of things , and my mom , for a number of reasons , didn't feel like that was a good idea , so we didn't do whatever .

Let's hope I'm not dyslexic there's still a small slit problem but what I've always found so interesting , though , is the way that we have set up and when I say interesting I mean shitty the way that we've set up the education system that this is what you do until you're an adult , and then sometimes you do it a little bit more , and then you go and get

your job , and we are responsible for teaching you all of the things that you need to know to be successful later in life , and we're not really responsible for making sure that you don't have a diagnosable learning disorder , because the three of you guys made it through all of the schooling you were supposed to be doing and at no point was anybody like hey , hey

guys , do you want to check ? Like it's this weird sort of I do not like , the sort of I don't want to say prison-esque aspects of school , but sometimes it's very hard to say it aspects of school , but sometimes it's very much like you sit down and you do what we tell you to do and if you don't do it well , it's because you're bad .

And then later on you're like fuck you , I wasn't bad . Like you guys didn't pick up that I wasn't getting it correctly .

Like as soon as , as soon as it took an hour for psychiatrists to meet with me and be like holy shit , you , you , you don't have ADHD , you are ADHD . Sorry , here are . If ADHD could turn oxygen into carbon dioxide , it'd be you and so , and it , you know , made a ton of sense . Anyway , I think it's in an interesting way .

It's a way that maybe we could be more curious versus judgmental when someone saying , hmm , the math homework is really giving me a hard time .

I will set everyone . And here's the thing , jeff , you'll understand this as much as anyone out there who's been through you know you go through the whole circuit and if no one is sort of helping you with it , what happens is there's a cycle of shame and blame that kids go through . And why do you do shame and blame ? Shame and blame in any situations ?

Because there's a lack of accountability . But how can you be accountable for something you don't understand ? So you feel like you have to start coming up with excuses , and if you have no excuses , you start to get angry and check out and go you know what ? Like , fuck this . Like you don't understand me .

Maybe I also don't understand , but I'm 12 or you know 9 . Like you know this is horrible . And then it compounds and compounds , and then it affects your self-esteem and your self-image and you go , oh my God , like am I stupid ? Am I an idiot ? Like , why is it so easy for my friends to get their homework done ?

And for me it feels like I'm pulling teeth to get this stuff done . And so , jeff , it's no wonder that it's 16 . Although we have not , we've buried the lead a little bit here , because , instead of following victim to the one-size-fits-all American educational system .

You were born and raised in the third nicest country on the planet , and tell everyone where you're from , jeff .

They're like , oh , there's a lot of connections to Scandinavia and I was like , oh , that's interesting , like this is just sort of a fascinating thing .

But I could see it in my interactions with people , like I remember reading this article where they were saying , if you go to have coffee with someone in Sweden , like Americans always feel the need to fill the silence whereas , like a lot of Swedes will just and listen .

Our Swedish buttercups and listeners can correct me if I'm wrong , but they're cool with like you don't always have to fill the void with blather . You know , banter .

The number one on the official , or the official Coach Castle's list is Vanuatu , which is my sister was stationed there in the Peace Corps and I remember I got off the plane on Port Vila , the beautiful little , tiny little capital city , and there was one road around the main island and I remember we got into the back of this little , tiny pickup truck which is

just like a Everyone just gives people . Whoever's got a car gives a ride to whoever . So my sister , you know , sort of flagged down this little pickup .

We jumped in the back and we started driving up the coast and people are just walking by on both sides and my sister hits me , like we're like We've been driving for like 30 feet and she's like what are you doing ? I was like what , what ? What she's like wave . I'm like I don't know those fucking people . It doesn't matter . It doesn't matter .

They were just like honored to have me there and just like that I would make the effort . Of course , I was like it was the other way for me . I'm like , oh my God , this is amazing , you know , but it's like literally the Like it's . They are the nice , there's nothing . I've never been around the world twice , never seen anything like the Nivan .

So they're always going to be my favorite and I've blooded my knuckles against enough dumb knucks over the years that I've been playing hockey .

You hail from the London region , which is in Ontario , and you are bordered to the East . Sort of Buffalo is the American city to your east and Detroit to your west , is that correct ?

So it's just become commonplace to say halfway between Toronto and Detroit , because most people know where Toronto and Detroit are and that's exactly where London is .

Yeah , now I've mentioned on the podcast that when the NHL playoffs come around , I will sing oh Canada at the top of my lungs in my living room much as she granted it for my family , but it's a fantastic anthem and I love hockey and it feels more hockey than the American Anthem there's also it's impossible to sing the American , the United States Anthem , unless

you're like a professional . I can't do it . I can't do it for the life of me . So a lot of connectivity with a huge fan . When I was a kid , we used to go up and play against Canadian teams .

So you'd like win your league , your local league , kind of thing , and you'd go up and play these like round robin tournaments where you'd get absolutely pounced by kids that are like three years younger than you . They're like , oh my God , the quality of hockey is unbelievable , but that's why there are so many championships and that's why it's the national sport .

So anybody that was that committed financially was going to be good hockey players . They weren't going to be around anymore , so we used to get our butts kicked every time we went over to Michigan .

You're just like , it's just water , just cold water . Baby , it should be .

I went to college for a brief period and used my we call it OSAP here in Canada , which is government funding alone . I used that to buy myself hockey equipment and taught myself how to be a hockey player and actually bought myself goalie equipment and learned how to be a goalie after .

I always say it's a special kind of stupid to start to learn how to be a goalie after people have built slap shots . But I did that and got really , really seriously into the dynamics of being a goal tender and then learning how to teach that . So I've been a goalie coach for the last 15 years .

I want the fattest part of my body to be facing the puck , and so it's not as simple as stand up or go down . It's when to stand up and not if , but when to go down .

I've played enough to wonder about every goalie that I've ever played , about their mental stability and their life choices . I strapped the pads on one time in a pickup game and the first shot was a slap shot like right from the top of the key hit me in the face mask and I was like how do you do this ?

And I love when I play , I'm a center and I love being the guy . I'll stand in the crease , I'll block the goalie . You know I'll try to stand right in front of a slap shot for my own defenseman and redirect the puck . I have no problem doing that . But playing goalie is a whole different .

It is like really sort of fascinating the type of person that gravitates to like in any sport . I saw this with soccer growing up too . It was like are you prepared ? It's almost like is your child prepared to take a disproportionate amount of blame Right For you ?

You know you can have like a three on O , like the other team comes down on a breakaway , your defenseman are lying on the ground somewhere and they score on the goalie and the people blame the goalie and you're like wait , what that's ? How is he supposed to like that ? It's insane . So do you notice a certain personality type that gravitates to the position ?

I think that the level that I coach at mostly , which is which is kind of beginning of the competitive area and you 13 is kind of the age that I that I like to stick to , or close to that age group I always say , because there's still , there's still sponges and they want to hear everything you have to say , but they're not pricks yet and so so , but at

that age they're , they're , they're , they're kind of more normal people that just like to be the last line of defense .

And I think as you get older and as you become more elite in the in the sport , I think that's actually when it becomes weird and it's your ability to handle that pressure being the last line of defense and because there is nothing like making that awesome save and having everybody congratulate you , and if you have the ability to have a very short memory those

saves , I can remember all the saves I made that were just like game stoppers and fortunately I don't remember all the really bad goals . Actually that's not true . I remember a few of the really bad goals , but disproportionately .

they're going . Okay , got it . Yep , yep , there we go . So , yeah , that's a real , that's a real thing and to be able to do that is a real thing . I was not really that athlete . I carried stuff on with me for a long time and , you know , to some time off , into my detriment .

I I try to teach it and the kids who really can put it down , you drop that pass . Moving on , I'm sure you know not being the hockey a fiction out of myself , but having learned some through coach , you know all right that that goal got through .

Let's not have another one get through because you're still thinking about the last one has got to be a huge lesson for life , nevermind hockey , yeah .

You can only do what you can do right now , and even worrying about the future is detrimental as well . You got to think about right now .

I mean he's going to get it either way , but specifically with a goalkeeper and hockey goal tender , you , you let a few in and you get yanked Like if , if it feels like your head is out and you can't stay present , you get pulled and that's a that sucks Like there aren't that many .

You know situations where , like , all right , you get out , like get , you're done for the , and sometimes , like with a good coach , it's a mercy . It's like listen , I'm not going to let you get .

There's so many over the years that I thought were amazing .

But did you have a favorite goalie growing up or ?

We have a junior league called the OIGEL here in London and Jeff Reese was the goalie when I was around 10 years old that played for the junior team and he's gone on to be . I think he's the goalie coach for Tampa Bay Now .

But I idolized him and would go to London Nights games and just sit and watch him and not watch anything else , but the puck could be down the other end of the ice and I was just watching to see what he did during that timeframe .

Listen , this is also we're talking about sports here . But I've been in theater and film my whole life and there's this thing that says your partner is your performance . I watch my actors like a hawk to say , like what are you doing ? When the spotlight's not on you , you are still in this scene .

You know , especially if it's a theater , it's a whole different ball of wax . So I love that you had these moments where you were sort of did you know you were studying at the time ? No no , no absolutely not .

To see the progression of a player from the beginning of the year to the end is really all the reward you need .

I feel like this should be something that people focus on a lot more , that there has been a push recently to be selfless and I'm not saying that that's bad , especially after you know , like I don't know , the fucking greed is good 80s and people who didn't figure out that that was supposed to be satire and everything that goes along with that .

But the idea of being selfless I don't like . I like more but not enough . I think that the real answer is find something that selfishly , makes you feel good , that also helps other people . It's like it's fine . I tell my nieces to their face all the time yeah , I'm getting this for you , but it's because I want you to like me . Like you , like me back .

I like you so much , I love it .

I'm just , I'm just not . I'm just not that , I just . He comes across as someone that would be super effective , but a little more tough than I am .

I'm not exaggerating , he's like he's a thing . So yes , he , but so I know he said he's a big cupcake , we know that from this podcast . But but when he's an authority figure , you know he's an authority figure there . And I mean , listen , jeff , in all fairness he wasn't , he's not Canadian , so what's he supposed to do ? That's that part .

So , anyway , one of the guys who I've been , you know , I've mentored along and he's coaching one of the teams , says to me , like his kids aren't competing for the ball , so the balls are the end and they're not competing for the ball . So I'm like all right , all right .

So I get him , I go and I like going YouTube and blah , and I ask around and I get him like a couple drills and I'm like , do these drills with them to get them used to competing for the ball . I said , but during practice tomorrow , I'm going to wait till I see one of your kids not compete and I'm going to go off .

So he's right he knows this is coming , so we're waiting , we're ? You know they're doing the drill . This kid doesn't compete and I go over there , are you ?

Oh , that's funny , because they were like you know what I mean . So , yeah , so I definitely do it , but I've had . I asked each of my kids what , like , if you were gonna describe my coaching , you know , and they both started with the phrase tough love , which I said well , that's called feedback . That is called feedback .

You know you can give them that comfort and that support when it's really deserved and I feel like that comfort and support would mean a lot more if they've had that really scary coach right Like okay , coach is really happy with what I'm doing right now I can tell because of the exact opposite reaction , right .

So , like , if I'm on your case , it's because I need you to be doing better , not because I just had a bad day .

The kids , like someone , will say you know , I'm so worried , my kids are going to think I'm a bad person . Like you know , you're not a bad person . They'll never think that , well , my ex is telling him all these terrible things . That's fine In the short term . Maybe it'll work Really . Maybe I've seen it .

In the short term , kids can get confused when one parent talks poorly about the other parent . Yes , I've seen it , it's happened to me , but I said it really . It just comes out in the wash . Eventually kids know what's going on . They can figure it out .

I mentioned that I had a football coach , my first football coach American style football , not soccer , and I'm going to make that distinction because coach Bishop was kind enough to make that point last time . I've mentioned this before . I think I mentioned it season one , but he used to have turf shoes . Remember turf shoes ?

They were like sneakers but they had the little kind of stubby kind of cleats , and so he would walk through the mud or whatever and like basically over the useless , because the mud would just cake into all the little stubs and that was it , and he would have us laying on our back . And to toughen us up , we did Oklahoma drills .

You guys know what Oklahoma drills are . Yeah .

You have a defined area and the ball carrier has to try to get past the tackler , so it's about getting to your feet and making the play .

You get like the defensive captain , the offensive and that sounds like an NFL hit when those guys hit and it's helmet to helmet . Oh man , it's crazy . But this coach would have us before the Oklahoma drill . If he didn't like you , if he didn't think you were doing well , he would come up to your face mask and rub his turf shoe on your face mask .

I was like I remember thinking I was probably like nine years old and I was like like wow . But also , weirdly , back then I was like he's an adult , this must be how it's done . I didn't question it in the same way , but , yeah , you get a sense like this isn't . But even then , this is so crazy how the psychology of kids are with their coaches .

Even then I would try to please him because he was my coach . So I remember one time I he may use me as an example of someone properly following their lead blocker and I was like it was my happiest moment . Happiest football memory was this total jerk . You know , use me as an example of what to do in the situation . So it's interesting .

And and , jeff , when have you had ? Now ? You had your background , let's see . You started coaching at 24 . You get diagnosed with ADHD around 33 , 34 , 10 years later . How did you use your experience with being misunderstood and isolated and sort of put in a different category than everyone else from time to time ?

How did you use that to inform your coaching of kids that sort of were looking to you for guidance , who may have been in the same boat ?

I'm just trying to think of some of some of the frustrating moments I've had with a few of these kids . Wow geez , no , no , no , we'll save you from it .

At least you know this is funny . It's like when boss talked about I think was Rosie O'Donnell was able to read a drunk person's drunk .

I was like , before I go to bed , I'll just throw it , watch 10 minutes of it . And then the first four episodes were available , watched them all the way through , immediately got on the horn with coach Bishop and was like you have to see this . Do you remember your first intro to Ted Lassow ?

And so I was like I don't , I don't have any interest in this , and then he , finally he made me , he said go home and watch this , you have to watch it tonight . So I finally said okay , I'll appease him and and I'll do it . And it was .

I was at first attracted to this American buffoon and and I felt like I was , I felt like I was part of an inside joke and and that's what first attracted me to me , to the show and to Ted .

But then very quickly I became like I described , like I fell in love with this character and and I kept on saying to like the amount of time that said to my wife dusty , the amount of time that said to her I do that when I coach , or or that's how I do it when I coach , or or yeah , yeah , I can see that , I can see that and I can , and I put

it into to my real life experiences . And so very , very quickly I fell in love , almost literally , with this character , with this person , and I saw myself in him .

experience when he's sitting in the restaurant and says to Trent basically his core belief about coaching which is not about the wins and losses , about helping these young men became best , become the best version of themselves . I remember thinking , oh , like I'm home , like this , yeah , like I didn't even know there was anybody out there talking like this .

And yeah , because there was everybody was Bobby Knight .

They're like hey , do you want to watch some Bobs Burgers for five minutes ? And I was like , yes , thank you , that would be great . And then it cycled through to a clip from Shameless where Lip Gallagher , as a TA , graded a paper and the kid came up to master class and was like I didn't deserve a D on this .

And he looks over and he's like , oh , yeah , no , you did . And he reads a part and the kids like that doesn't sound like D work to me . And he was like , oh , it doesn't , it sounds like Nobel winning work because you lifted this . This is like straight plagiarism . You plagiarize this entire part .

And he was like no , I didn't , and Lip was like do you want me to Google it right now , right in front of ?

And Lip's like well , I don't think he's going to do it again . I felt like the kid needed a break . And then the professor says you should look into teaching . So I feel like what that sort of spark for me is .

There are ways in which this is being done , but I think that maybe even at the time , it wasn't the coach in charge of a big team that would be doing this .

I felt like there were examples of it , but what came through in this is somebody could do this method and be really good at their job and make other people really good at their jobs , and it isn't .

It's in this very masculine , very tough kind of setting and I think that's what really came through on the show that we are showing you this in a way that can work in , and if it can work in professional soccer , it can work anywhere . You could bring this into an executive's office and still do it the same way , because this method works .

Also , I love that part where he said it's about making these guys so good and that Trent was like you really mean that , and I love so much that he followed it up immediately with let me ask you something . It's my mouth on fire right now . Such a wealth , crafted show that they'd be like .

Here's this very important part about what the show means and an incredibly funny joke . I think that was the moment when I was sold . I was like I'm in Nice .

He was going to be confident at that and that's what that's . Yes , all right .

So it's like okay , so it's just this guy being a buffoon . But throughout that episode , the more and more it went on I don't know that I have a specific moment that I fell in love , but it was , yeah , the , the , the , the airplanes , you know wasn't . I was like that , that that kind of set me back .

You know , I feel like I could , I could confide in these guys and and we have confided and we've we've talked through , you know , my , my daughter's , transgender issues and we've talked through a lot of issues and I feel like I can , I can be myself 100% with these guys and they have my back and I have their back and everybody in the like .

I started to kind of well up and somebody in the room said are you going to start crying ? Is just a t shirt ? And I said it's not just a t shirt , this is , this is .

This is a confirmation of you know that I have , you know and what the show has kind of showed me that not everybody has this group of male friends that that I could , that we can be 100% ourselves with and talk to each other about , about issues and and go deeper on subjects that doesn't have to be surface level with us .

And so , yeah , I do wear this shirt with pride and and I'm happy to have a group of men that are strong and capable and but also caring and loving and supportive .

of our storytelling and in life and the way we talk about different people and the manner in general , there is this sort of like either you're someone who cares and therefore you must drink all things with your pinky up and blah , blah , blah , or you're and I love that .

There's room for Roy Kent and Trent Crim and right and Higgins and like like every like there's room for everybody who's willing to come in here , be their full selves and be supportive of everyone else being their full selves . It's just not something .

It's something I've had the privilege of experiencing in a few places in my life , just that I can point to some specific moments where it's like a group of guys who , like we , had each other on that level , but not a ton and not for extended amounts of time , and it's not something you find you know any day .

But you know I'm on text threads with friends where like , yeah , we have a good time and if you know somebody had like someone in their family sick , of course people would say , oh , you know . But like that ability to just go , no , no , no , no .

Like today I'm just like a big raw nerve and I just need to like say things that deal with that and that's okay . And tomorrow we'll talk about Patricois and that'll be it . And that's what we're doing .

that moment . And it's not just a T-shirt . We talk about people who don't have boys , and those are . That's the definition of what we say , Because , look it , people can't see Jeff , but he's a strong strapping dude and he looks like he could wrestle a grizzly to a draw and yeah Can .

It's like people trying to be a different thing than what we historically see and boss will scoff and say , yes , it's been around there before . It wasn't like Ted Lasso invented it because she saw these moments with lip and these tiny moments , but they were not the highlight of any show .

They were never like the overarching premise of the show , conceptually , even before . Okay , up until Ted Lasso . Right , Whether or not we sit here and we can sort of castigate the coach philosophy around , you know what percentage of it was sort of toxic , right , like the Bobby Knights or whatever the Yellers .

But John Wooden was out there and there were other amazing coaches out there . They just didn't get the press they didn't get . You weren't supposed that was a aberration in the coaching ranks when you were a nice , kind , sweet coach that everybody loved . I remember when Pete Carroll came to . Pete Carroll came to coach the New England Patriots .

He's the longtime coach of the Seattle Seahawks and he was too soft . They thought why ? This guy is sweet , he's nice , players love him . Get him the fuck out of here . There's no way he can be a fan .

And then when grumbling bridge troll Bill Belichick showed everyone's like yes , this makes sense , like , yeah , he looks like someone who you know , he can , you know sort of sort of grumble out two words per press conference and it makes sense to be like , oh , this is a coach . But up until the sort of premiere of Ted Lasso , no one had standardized it .

No one said no , why , why , let's rethink this . And then throughout the run of the show , as you know , the whole concept has let's question things , let's turn things on there , let's analyze why do we do these things ? And it sounds like I mean , look in your specific situation . You have your Diamond Dogs personally up there in London and you're talking about .

You know I've mentioned on the show so many times my struggles with divorce and with having children who are neurodivergent and all the challenges of IEPs and 504s and trying to get them through the day , and you know all kinds of diagnoses and you're talking about . You know your child is a gender change . Was that the or ?

Yeah , she's transgender , yeah , Transgender yeah , and so all of that , like if you don't have guys to talk about , that you know , it's like no one . It sounds like your crew of guys is like okay , yeah , let's , let's , we're here for you about not just you know hockey or things along that you know .

It sounds like they were there for you throughout the whole thing .

Like it is bad . I'm just here just for the first time and I know it wasn't just a t-shirt . So yeah , I think there's a lot of good we could be doing to share and teach that like you don't have to do it the same way our group does it or the same way that Ted and the guys did , but somewhere along the line , who are your people ?

Boss talks about her fives and we have fun with that , but like she's got a fives man and like , okay , you gotta at some point have that piece . We're not built to function optimally without it . We can make it work and we can do all sorts of things , but I think we function at our best when we've got some version of that in our lives .

And , jeff , you had a rough run with school and misunderstood . And then you get to this moment where Mike walks over with a diamond dog's T-shirt and it's got a feel and you're visibly emotional . So you're vulnerable in that moment . On top of everything right , it's everything about . It's beautiful to me .

It's like complete acceptance of being part of this group , like we're all in this together . It's just a beautiful moment and I'm so happy you shared that with us . Now you there's a couple of tremendous things that I wanna talk about only because you and I have sort of talked offline .

You , when you checked out of school at age 16 , you went and , I'm guessing , got employed somewhere and started working , and is that what you did ?

So I kind of took whatever I could get and have been lucky to be mainly employed my entire adult life , but never doing something that I ever really wanted to or would have chosen for myself . But very quickly became got married young , had kids young , and now it's you need to do whatever it is you need to do for your family and for your kids .

And so the dream goal job or the green goal career kind of goes out the window and you just , you just try and make ends meet . And so I worked everywhere .

If I was like , oh , it's my sophomore year of high school , Like I think I'll just go to the beach every day , and my parents would be like , no , you're not .

So I kind of took every job and then worked all the way through college and I always credit it with giving me perspective that I wouldn't otherwise have , and it made me a better writer and a better sort of at least someone who can , I guess , identify with what other people are going through , because I did a lot of the same gigs .

You got to a point where you had succeeded enough without a high school diploma that you had an interesting interaction with your daughter , which I find fascinating , and I can't wait for people to hear this because I think this is absolutely astounding .

She wants me to shout this story from the rooftops but I've avoided talking about it because it kind of puts me initially in what I consider to be a bit of a bad light .

So I didn't graduate high school , I went to college as a matured student . In Canada I don't know if it's the same way in the States After you've reached a certain age point you can get into the basic community college as a matured student .

So I did that with very little success , still Still hadn't been diagnosed with ADHD , and so again , you just work whatever job you can get to pay the rent , like I said . And then so , like I said , I've been fairly successful in having been employed most of my adult life . But my daughter was struggling both with mental health and schooling . We were .

I said in the email I sent to Castleton that quite literally we're just trying to keep my daughter alive and she was having some very serious issues . So schooling took a major back burner . Kind of the same way . Schooling in my life with my parents took a back burner which is like let's just get them through this and so .

But the one day my daughter said to me hey , you didn't graduate high school and you're doing okay , so why do I have to go to high school ? And so I get a bit emotional when I talk about this . But so the very next day I signed up for school .

And I got up every day before work two hours extra to do some homework and then I would get home at 730 at night and work for two hours . That's on my schoolwork when I got home and I got it done and I graduated and so so again , I'm conflicted because I'm really , really proud of that .

But I've spent my entire life trying to convince people that I'm smart , and so for me to be able to say , hey , like , puff my chest out and say I just graduated high school and I'm proud of what I did , it also makes me have to say , but I didn't do it until now .

I understand , so we so fundamentally , we get in your brain where there's some sort of stigma around it , but it is just plain awesome . From an outsider's perspective , it is amazing .

Like there's just quite literally nothing , and I've shared on the podcast before that I had a dog phobia Like the sound of a dog approaching could make my heart go into the like fat burn zone , like phobia .

And because it is recently for a bunch of other reasons , I had reason to really think about this seeing my kids with their cousins , little dog and how much they were enjoying it and thinking I'm gonna infect them with my crap for my upbringing .

If I was the thing with no professional assistance , which I might have gotten some professional assistance if I look back , but with no professional assistance .

I said I will conquer this and now I'm like literally the person like I am the dog advocate now , like yelling at animal care and control about what they need to do to make the place safer for the little dogs .

So anyway , I say all that to say that it would be an impressive story to me if you just woke up one morning and said that's a box that's not checked for me , that I wanna check .

But the fact that it was a direct response to I wanna make sure you see the world a certain way and I'm gonna do the two hours before work if that's what it takes for you to see it that way . That's a picture of father that lines up with what we're seeing on Ted Lasso when he's gotta go home , regardless of what reasons there might be to stay .

So anyway , as a fellow father , I would add that to what's so great about the story .

So yeah , so I did a few years taking part-time classes at community college and finally went back and finished my degree in an entirely different subject . That's fine , and so I know that feeling about you . Spent so many years being like no , I believe me , I know what I'm doing here . It's just school didn't work out before . I know what I'm talking about .

You don't want to make a big deal about it Like when I finished my graduate program which if you told me that when I was 22 and like what the fuck am I doing with my life ? That eventually you would be able to figure out your shit enough to get a graduate degree , I probably disregard you because I was drunk at the time I wouldn't be willing to guess .

Just honestly , if I'm talking to you in some place , I'm probably having a drink , but yes , like I didn't want to make a big deal about it , but also like I wanted to acknowledge it to an extent .

One of my therapist friends says that when she is working with a patient who has sort of similar regrets about the amount of time that it's taken is , well , you're here now , so like it doesn't matter . Maybe you could have done things differently , but you're here now . That's the thing to focus on .

So I don't know , I don't have the data aspect , but when you get there , you're there now . That's all that matters .

I mean , out of the three of us who host this show , Boss is the only one who quote unquote flunked out and coach went to Yale and she's still the smartest one of all of us .

I love your strength and your resilience , I love that you're such a sweetheart man , because the fact that you think this is something even remotely connected shame in any way at this point in your life , instead of like because I'm enough of a sort of arrogant prick that I would be like guess what I did , Like you know what I mean .

I'm like I just only see the good thing here .

And I remember thinking like I don't know , but I remember what I didn't want . And you're like , okay , at least I know what I don't want .

And when I hear you talk about Dusty and read about it in your emails , you know it reminds me of Juliana , it reminds me of like , okay , this is a really good partnership and somebody that really fundamentally gets you as a person 100% , 100% .

I guess I feel like I saw more of those beats , but in a way you're right that when he walks out on that pitch , having been quote welcome back to the team , he hadn't done anything more than ask that you know what I mean , that the team would be aware of or that would be their experience .

I'm not sure I have a response so much as like that is really interesting , yeah .

There's thousands of people all around the world that are going to hear about the fact that you did not graduate from high school until seven minutes ago . So I'm going to cry . So , out of nothing but courtesy and care , you and I have talked about this and discussed it and said , well , what's appropriate , what's not appropriate ?

I didn't come out here and just throw oil on you and let you on fire . It's not that . And what Nate did by outing Ted's personal malady when he , for no other reason than to better himself or embiggen himself or try to raise his stock , he leaked that Ted had panic attacks .

That felt very , very , that felt like an actual betrayal , whereas Jamie being shipped out of town by Rebecca . He had no say and he was on loan . There's nothing he did . Now , yes , he did score the winning goal to relegate his former team , but I ask you , jeff , who among us , given that option , wouldn't have ?

I cannot even let this joke pretend to pass without getting enraged by it . He did the right thing . That was the first time he did the right thing . That was the first thing that said Jamie could be turned around .

And what I will say is I feel like there were significantly more touches with Jamie and I don't just mean that in my fan-fit kind of way , I mean that it came back time after time where he made up to Sam and up to Nate and up to Colin and up to Keely and showed that he was trying to become a better person .

I think that they just didn't have as much time or as many details with Nate and that's why it felt , as they show , a little less satisfying . Ok , ok .

As is so , if this is what Nate did , how do we deal with what Nate did , without trying to get personally too upset about what Nate did ? So can we offer him a way back , even if we aren't sure ? If the show showed us his specific steps back , like , can we say he wanted redemption air ago . We owe it to him to at least extend that .

I think that that opens like sort of a different perspective to the show for me , one that I'm going to need to think about for a while because that only came up last week .

But I definitely think wanting Nate to have redemption is more in line with the Ted Lasso way than me saying , like , well , those bitches didn't close up this loophole in this one , so he's out , can't have him back .

The thing that we always harp on , as you know , is the beats didn't line up actually with the trajectory back , with the road back with Nate the same way as uniformly as they did with Jamie , from our analysis .

But in the end , by the way , Jeff I don't want to let him off the hook here because he said something so funny on our Buttercup community site when we finished the second to the penultimate episode , as it were , we were about to start the final episode and Jeff wrote I wonder what the over and under is on how many episodes it's going to take these guys to

finish the final episode . And he's like whatever it is , I'm smashing the over . I laughed so hard .

So but yeah , I think Nate definitely would have benefited from a four season for sure . But no , as it was , I am quite pleased with the way they ended up , for sure .

That moment , in the same way that Ted just sort of hugged Nate and said , oh , buddy , and it was sort of like everything that you mean by that , sorry , I accept and we're good . I kind of felt that way with the show at that point . But I was like man who's the Rocky Road back , but you know what ? Nate's back , he's sorry . He said he's sorry .

Ted gave him a hug . I'm set . That was sort of my experience .

Maybe you do also identify with Ted , but is there someone that was your guy or girl on the show ?

We had a family vacation in Barbados last year and I said that toast at the table and people welled up and stuff and I sat down and whispered to my wife . That's from Ted Lassner .

I think if we were to go back and sort of , did the character grow because they realize , oh , we've got an actor who can give us more than we were planning on or was that always the plan , I don't know , but I feel like that character almost felt like a throwaway when we first met him and along the way gave us some pretty critical beats .

What I love about the scene you referenced , though , KOB , is , I think for me and you've heard it , I think Higgins is the moral guiding voice .

It may very well be the last throwaway , but I feel like Higgins has always been spot on with where we need to be , how we should quote be looking at these things , and I thought that a dinner because a dinner at Ted's house teds the head coach , so unless you got a reason , you better show up .

But Higgins is just like hey , my door is open and for enough people to show up that we've got to figure out how we're going to extend the table and that we're happy to extend the table . I felt was so in the spirit of the show that , yes , after that our feeling about what the team was I thought did shift .

When someone said I do this thing where if I don't have a awkward party or something like that , I don't really have anything to ask someone , I will say like all right something to find out .

Oh , I aspire to be Ted Lasso , which is in and of itself fascinating . But then you go yeah , I know , I really take Higgins . And then you cite the Christmas episode where it's all you know , this sort of re-emphasis on the team .

I like that you're calling out OK , like this is the most we've had , because in years past we didn't have this vibe or we didn't have this sort of camaraderie , or somehow something has changed in the cycle to make this something that everybody wants to be a part of .

And there is that beautiful sort of potluck moment where guys show up bringing things and I actually love Julianne has got a family , a big Italian family in Rochester , new York , where , whenever we go in there , it was the first time I ever met a whole huge Italian family and the best people in the world with no strings attached .

So , like the Italian odds are all , can we get you something to eat and you're like , if you're like me , you're like no , I want to go do the , I'll get you something . But that's not . It's just not how it is . And they really want to feed you and they really want to get you something .

And the nicest people that's so happy and those type of there's like 80 or 90 people in a time like a regular ranch house and all they do is bring out tables and every little kids are on little tables and people are standing at the counter and eat , like whatever . It's like . You can smash humanity in there as much as you can and everybody's cool with it .

They just want to be together because there's no troublemakers , everyone's getting along and those sorts of dynamics are . They're beautiful and it seems like that's something that you sort of that really resonated with you the togetherness of the team in that moment .

So if you have the jerky ex-husband , he's the guy that opens the door and is like , may I help you ? Like just trying to be a boundary . It's like oh , my God , that's what he relates to , and so it's fascinating that you have this thing where you're like OK , I don't need to have the spotlight on me , but I'm happy to sort of work to .

You know helps another person's vision , and that is unbelievably generous of spirit .

I know it's made some going around some but basically is a guy at a music festival dancing on a hill and then one or two people join in and then whatever , and then by the end of the video it's just like it's really about how many people are not dead to get that point , because everyone has joined .

This one and I use this quite lovingly Lunatic who starts out just kind of gyrating on a hill Like it's not the most impressive dancing you've ever seen , but he's willing to step out and be there .

And one of the one time that I saw this video , what was stressed was the importance of the first follower , and there have been times in my life where I've been the guy dancing on the hill saying it'll be fun , come on y'all .

But I don't know that I appreciated the times I've been second , or that someone else chose to be my second , to be that first follower who says no , no , no , this person isn't just doing a crazy thing . I meant on it too , and what was pointed out was how absolutely critical that role is .

So , whether it's beard , knowing you need the Wi-Fi password and the wipes , you know , whatever it is , but who's that person who's going to just give us enough permission to join in ? Because it's not just one person howling at the moon and it's huge .

And how do we even know Jeff ? How do we know Jeff ? It's because when we said , hey , we're going to be vulnerable and ask for help , he was like he was . He did the stock the podcast to immediately help us . Yeah , yeah , Right . I mean like that is . That is a core value with you , Jeff , and I mean it's stunning .

Has this always been part of your ethos or is this something you developed in adulthood , or where does this come from ?

So we yeah we we sort of discourage people from quote unquote following , but I like the concept of joining , especially the way I was raised was to be Machiavellian and cutthroat and , and so when I learned at like about the same time that Jeff , about 20 minutes ago when I learned to be a joiner , really , really , it's like it's , it's liberating because you know

it's , it's , first of all , feels great to to believe in other people and support their vision and help them and sort of that approbation .

In this world , where we can be very , very disenfranchised and disjointed and weirdly isolated , no matter how we're all interconnected somehow , the net result of the social media phenomenon is that we can sometimes be very fractured . To have people truly believe in you and support you , it's a whole .

It's a whole different thing and it really the weight of that is is kind of awe inspiring . So I think it's amazing , jeff . And is there someone in your life is it one of the diamond dogs that you coach with any of those guys ?

I've been a head coach a lot of my adult life because that is kind of a role that I other than in coaching , that I like to be second , but for some reason in coaching and hockey I prefer to be the voice .

I think you get a lot of feedback if you just pay attention to the parent , not necessarily what they say to you , but how are you kind of like regarded by who ? you know that me , like I've had parents- reach out to me years later and be like hey , someone told us having a rough time . Maybe I could , like you know , have him call you and talk .

You know that says a lot compared to like thanks for everything . Coach , is your big five gift card hopes never see you again , right ?

And there are sports where you go okay , like I'm going to coach you during coaching time and then when you're , when it's time for a match , that's it . You got to let

them run . Now , the thing you'll see in an American football , nfl football you'll see coaches screaming from the sidelines , calling timeouts , yelling at the ref oh this guy is terrible at clock management , right ? There's such an integral part of the game that you can't divorce yourself from it .

Hockey coaches you do not see in the same way , like it's almost comical and it's funny because it's Canadian , because you go , these guys just stand . Sometimes they have their hands in their pockets , they stand on the bench , they whisper like which line goes out ?

You know , they make tiny little adjustments and it's not like they're not coaching , but it's and Jeff , correct me if I'm wrong about any of this , but I know the coaches that coach me . There wasn't a lot of . It's more .

All the procedure , all the process during the week , all your practices , getting things aligned , making sure people are on the same page so that on a game day you're not flailing around . You kind of have a sense about what you're going to do . When you have your power play team , have your short-handed team , you know who's doing what .

If somebody gets injured , you know who's going in for them . You know how you're . If you're going to shorten your lines up at the end of the game , you know how to do . That Is that ? Does that ? Does that sort of gel with your understanding of the game ?

I spent an entire period watching him one day and he didn't say a word on the bench and his assistant coaches did all the talking and stuff and this is the best coach ever in the OHL . He's had the most success .

And so I have kind of tried to take that into my own coaching and I find that when I'm talking too much on the bench , when I'm yelling too much on the bench , I feel like I'm being less effective and I and I and I should shut up a bit and let let the play happen and let let the let the play be the lesson , as opposed to me trying to give the

lesson Wow , and and so whenever , whenever I'm , whenever I find myself talking too much , I I chances aren't being less effective . Do you have a whiteboard on the bench .

Sometimes you'll have to go okay , hey , we're going to do this , we got , you know , eight seconds left , or we're going to drop back to this guy , he's going to move here , or you have to show them okay , they're , they're defending us a different way so you can use that in real time .

But yeah , it's a , it's a different , it's a different animal than , I would say , some other , some other sports where it's , it's more , at least it's more Overtly active in other places than it is in hockey .

It's different than American football , which is probably the most my reference in terms of actual coaching I've done in my life , but that you just got to prepare and then send them out on the field and trust them to do what they do . It's a lot like parenting .

Of course , by then Henry had moved on to the robot he had drawn , but I'm wondering how much of that you see in terms of your parenting . You've talked about parenting , parenting , you know where sometimes parenting could be more challenging . How much do you see that paralleling your style of sort of like well , I've given you what I've given you . You've watched .

You watch me go get my high school diploma . I'm not going to tell you to go to class , I'm just like I have communicated that . I think that's important . How much is that a part of your style ?

I hope that that most of them have and I hope that they see the good person I'm trying to be , that I try to be and ultimately that's the most important thing is that they , they'd be good people and they're both brilliant , just absolutely brilliant .

They do get that from their mom actually , but , yeah , I try and be probably I'm probably a little bit dusty , dusty and I'm not sure what would be the more really on them really strict , whereas I'm kind of a little bit more laid back and let's see what happens , and so maybe maybe that is a I haven't thought of it that way , but maybe that is from

coaching .

And now that we get to meet you especially , you want to talk courage . Just coming on after Jenna is daunting to anybody , but no doubt I really want to point out that I always say we have the best listener community in the world .

The people that we've gotten to meet throughout this process , the , the , the intellect and the , just the level of thought and consideration and kindness and sophistication .

And you , just you , just , when you say , like , for example , that you're trying to be a good man , that really means something to us , we , we , we see that and we can feel it and we can tell .

And so in your little corner of the world , if you do that , and in coach's corner of the world if he's doing that , and my little corner of the world , I'm sure I'm failing , but I'm still trying to do that . We'll just leave boss out of this . Yeah , I was like . I was like I know .

It's been a long time coming and we thank you for being being here and taking time out of your busy schedule , to just be so honest , and and it took a lot of bravery to do what you did today to talk about these things that have been difficult for you , although we say they shouldn't be difficult , because they're absolutely stunning and amazing and magnificent ,

and you're a true inspiration to us and and we couldn't think of anybody better to have have the moniker of the king of the buttercups , because you know we adore you and and we're always going to be here in your corner . So thank you for taking the time today and just for being here for us . We really appreciate it .

Last I get that . But a lot of it comes from from the stuff I've heard on your show and I am it again . It's like the t-shirt , is it ? Call me the king of the buttercups , but it's ?

And it's just a silly made up name , but it doesn't mean something to me and it being part of this community means something to me and I appreciate the slack that that that you guys started is unbelievable and I appreciate that .

I appreciate all the effort you guys go to to provide this awesome show in this awesome community and I just can't thank you guys enough and you have been my passenger on many a mile down the road . I appreciate you . I appreciate you so much . Wow , wow .