Urban Warfare Isn't an Alibi | EYES ON GEOPOLITICS - podcast episode cover

Urban Warfare Isn't an Alibi | EYES ON GEOPOLITICS

Jan 30, 202655 min
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Episode description

In this episode of Eyes on Geopolitics, Dee and Andy Milburn discuss the complexities of urban warfare, particularly in the context of the Gaza conflict. They explore the high civilian casualty rates, the military decision-making processes, and the ethical implications of targeting practices. The conversation delves into the role of intelligence, the challenges of verifying targets, and the impact of civilian deaths on future conflicts. Andy emphasizes the need for restraint and the consequences of treating civilian casualties as an acceptable cost of military operations.

Andy's article: https://warontherocks.com/2026/01/gaza-and-the-conduct-of-urban-war-civilian-harm-risk-and-responsibility/

00:00 — Gaza War Explained
01:17 — Urban Warfare Targeting
03:40 — Civilian Casualties Breakdown
09:27 — Rules of War in Cities
16:03 — Targeting Mistakes & Intel
25:32 — Evacuation Warnings in Gaza
33:40 — Human Shields Explained
40:15 — AI Targeting & Blowback

Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support.

Transcript

Intro / Opening

Speaker 1

Hey, everybody, welcome to another episode of Eyes on Geopolitics, especially on today. I'm joined by Andy Milburn. Of course you know him. All his links are in the description. Check him out there. Of course he's got a great new article that he put out on War on the Rocks. That link is also in the descriptions to check it out, and basically, I want to do it justice. You know, it's called Gaza and the conduct of Urban war, Civilian harm, risk and responsibility. The first line pops out to me.

You know, urban warfare is often invoked as an alibi, dench terrain and embedded enemy, human shields and perfect intelligence. You guys, we're gonna talk about the article, but please go check it out. That link is in the description. Andy. What's up man, It's good to see you.

Speaker 2

Yeah, good to see you too. Thanks very much for having me on.

Speaker 1

Please, this is your shiltern down.

Speaker 2

So I think you know, probably the best way of doing this, of course you're the producer, is I can give you just an overview of the article for those of our audience it can save please do read it save you that troup. By the way, so the article came out in War on the Rocks yesterday. And you

Urban Warfare Targeting

know I've written I'm not I'm not a prolific article writer, but I've had a number of articles published, and I would say just as far as direct feedback, this is this is solicited, more direct feedback than any other article that I have written, just in the you know, the first twenty four hours it was out. It was published in the Early Bird, which is kind of the circular

that goes out every day. It's not sent out by d O D, but it goes out throughout d O D. It's produced by I think it's the Military Times, and it's a compilation of top you know, defense use over the previous twenty four hour period. And it was on that this morning, and yeah, I didn't. You know, honestly, this is a topic, as you know, that I've been looking at researching for a while. It plays to my background. I'll talk about that in a little bit, and it's

part of the research for my book. I do want to say before I started talking about this that you know, the research, a lot of it came from personal interviews. Over fifty interviews conducted with members of the IDF, most of whom were involved in the targeting process. At some stage. A lot of them were commanders, some of them were intelligence officers, Target tears, and even even the ones who defended the methodology were open and honest about how it

is done. So I was able to get beneath the surface of you know, hey, we have these procedures, and look at how exactly they those procedures were implemented. So yeah, so you know, to to your point, the urban warfare is often treated as an alibi. You know, the dense terrain and embedded enemy human shields, just the uncertainty of war, imperfect intelligence, you know, all of those that kind of use to to justify harmed to civilians or to explain

civilian casualties. You know, they're just my article is well, no that by themselves, they are not. You know, all of those things are real, but they don't explain outcomes

Civilian Casualties Breakdown

by themselves. Because every modern military that has fought in cities in recent years faces uncertainty and civilian presence. And what distinguishes campaigns it isn't how commanders respond to that uncertainty. It is I mean it is it's how commanders respond to that uncertainty. It isn't the uncertainty itself it's you know, how do they prioritize risk, what levels of civilian harm, the civilian death are treated as as acceptable. And that's

the core argument of my article. And I you know, I begin I point out the scale of civilian and death in Gaza is exceptional in terms in total numbers, and I talk about the fact that you know, we're in the seventies of thousands, and that the Lancet British paper points out that indeed the actual numbers may be as high as forty percent higher than that when you factor in indirect deaths from starvation, from lack of medical care,

you know, polluted water, whatever it may be. And so you're probably talking about civilian death hole of over one hundred thousand, which is staggering. But then you know, you have to ask, so what percentage of of those tens of thousands are combatants? That's really the question. And you know, even when you look at just the demographics, the undisputed figures, right, two thirds of those figures are women and children. Now, Hamas, aside from using them as suicide bombers, Hamas doesn't use

women as fighters. And by children I mean sixteen or below generally, you know, too low to be to below the military age males. Right, So two thirds of women and children obviously not combatants. Now, that already puts Gas's death toll of civilians ratio civilians combatants on a different level than, for instance, and mos All, where combatants were around fifty. You know, people can challenge my numbers, you

can look these up. But between forty five and sixty percent of total deaths right, and Fallujah around the same. You'd have to go all the way back to Grosny right in the nineties, Grosney one and two, which Grosny is commonly regarded as the most the most civilian death intensive battle since the Secondorld War. You'd have to go back to that find comparable numbers, and even then they're not quite at the level. The ratios aren't quite the same Grosney it was about it was two thirds, it

was around seventy percent. But recently this is coming from the Israelis, uncovered by Investigator for Reporting, and again you can look this up. The Israelis themselves have have come up with figures that show that eighty three percent of those killed were civilians, which is an extraordinary, extraordinarily high toll. And When I say extraordinary, I'm not just shooting from the hip. I mean compared to h it's great. To other battles and one afare right?

Speaker 1

Was that leaked?

Speaker 2

What was that?

Speaker 1

Was that?

Speaker 2

Yeah? It was leaked. Yeah, it was leaked, and I was picked up by the Guardian and Israeli. I can't remember the name of the outlet, it's it's a strange name. It's plus nine seven two or something, but it's a well known Israeli media outlet and they have published those reports. So that's irrefutable that Israeli intelligence came up with those figures. Those aren't produced by the Health Ministry or anything else

that coming from the Israelis themselves. So when you know, my point is this, when civilian death reaches that scale and shows that level of demographic graphic consistency, something's going on, all right, Something's going on beyond terrain density or enemy tactics, because we had all of that shit and Mozar and flu Ja I was involved in both battles, and so that's you know, that that invites a closer analysis of how force was applied because they're in lies the answer

to why those figures are so high, and this is an argument about intent. Okay, I'm not I'm not going launching down the genocide route. It's an argument about process. Civilian deaths and war are not random accidents, that the predictable outcome of how targets are, how targets are defined, how intelligence uncertainty is handled, what what weapons are chosen, and how much risk commanders are willing to accept or for them for their own forces or to transfer. At

what point do they transfer that risk? What's the threshold for them transferring that risk onto this fullian population? And look, I've commanded as un D and this isn't me chest beating here, but I've commanded US forces in urban combat, including in Fallujah and mos All. I've you know, I've with the moral weight of approving strikes where civilians might be present, where you're balancing that against your obligation to support the forces in the fight themselves, knowing that delays

may result in more casualties for them. You know, I get it's those are not easy decisions, but I've had to make those decisions scores for be hundreds of times. And you know the other piece is that I know

Rules of War in Cities

as well as anyone that uncertainty never disappears and more. But in professional militaries it's supposed to tighten restraint, not loosen it. So when intelligence is ambiguous, when you don't have a good handle on civilian patterns of life, or when you lose custody of a target, and you know, I can get into that moment. What that means, The expectation is that strikes either slow down or they stop. You know, you pause precisely because the risk of killing

civilians increases. And you may ask, well, why do you care? Well, you care because you know, as I've said before, we fight. We fight with the values that we represent in Western militaries, right,

we don't adopt those at the enemy. But even if you don't give a shit, right, even if you don't give a shit about the civilian population, there are good pragmatic reasons not to slaughter them in mass, because you are you may be solving the immediate problem, but you're going to generate far greater problems for yourself down the line. And again I'm not shooting from the hippie. You can

look at studies. There's a very good one done by rand on insurgent regeneration in Afghanistan and Iraq and the link between that and civilian casualties, and there is definitely a strong link. In other words, you start killing civilians willy nilly, you're creating anger, resentment that simmers and feeds right into that insurgent narrative. I mean, that's not rocket

sciences that you can you can understand that. And in Gaza, I can only imagine where something like seventy five percent of families have lost people I mean close, you know, the families, close relatives. I can't imagine the level of resembling an anger that is simmering. And if you and I were in that position, we would want to get revenge, even though we're not vengeful people, be at least you're not. But in Gaza, I think that's.

Speaker 1

I mean, that's just human nature, right like you know, of course your mom dies.

Speaker 2

Why why would you imagine otherwise? Why would you imagine that a population that is that has incurred that number of casualties, whether it's seventy thousand or one hundred thousand in a in a two million, two million a total population, why would you assume that life would return to normal after that and there would be no sense of resentment with that. I mean, imagine that happening in the United States city. I mean all these casualties too have occurred

in an area roughly the size of Philadelphia. So can you imagine one hundred thousand deaths and solicitious everywhere you turn right at any single building. So anyway, that that you know, for those of who accuse me of being a bleeding heart and who cares, and there are pragmatic reasons.

I personally care about the legal reasons, and I care about the ethical reasons because I represent I did represent the United States military, and I believe in the values that we that that we represent, right, but there are those who don't give a shit about those values. And I would say, well, there's good pragmatic reasons, and you're

gonna undermine your cause. It's a you're gonna tactical success will lead to strategic fail if you're simply slaughtering civilians anyway, So you know I talked about, Hey, when when the level of uncertainty goes up and you know you're not getting good intelligence, you're not getting good patterns of life, then then then you have to or you know, for us in the US, that means we show more restraint. That doesn't mean we see strikes altogether, we don't support

our forces. We find, you know, other ways of doing it. Perhaps you know, we late, we we have a greater alliance on direct fire, or we move more cautiously, and sometimes that means incurring greater risks your own troops. And that's just the nature of the game, that is, that's what we're in. I don't mean to say suggest, right, And you know I was in Fallujah and and I can tell you in absolute contrast to the way the IDF operated in Gaza. We went in and cleared every

single building. We weren't allowed to blow buildings away. We could under certain circumstances we were taking fire, but the level of authorization for that was relatively high as a customary battalion level. And yes, that was frustrating at times,

and it was terrifying. Yeah, absolutely. I mean I can tell you too as an advisor, where every time we went in we cleared buildings that had to be an American leading the way into you know, knocking down the door, going down, going through the fatal funnel, down that hallway in the dark, just waiting for someone with a PKAM to let rip. It was a terrifying, bloody experience. And when you were inside those buildings, and remember our mvgs and no especially in the Marine Corps then were pieces

of crap. And so you were at a disadvantage to your enemy. I don't mean to digress here, but absolutely you were at a disadvantage. Doesn't matter that you represented the most powerful military in the world with all the resources we have. When you went in that door and it was you leading the way with one guy you know, just stay staggered behind you, it was you too against whomever was in that house, and you were and because you were moving and you were you were silhouetted. You

were at a disadvantage. But we did that time and time again. Now, of course I would hope that now, if we had to do it, we'd do a lot more with unmanned systems. But but my point is this that no one can accuse me again of not understanding the problem. Oh yeah, I understand the problem, and I've been at at at the kind of the dog's body end of this, so anyway, but uh, in in Gaza, uncertainty functioned in the opposite direction. It created license rather

than restraint. That's you know, and in my article I show examples of this intelligence gaps were treated permissively.

Targeting Mistakes & Intel

Speaker 1

So I was like, essentially like, oh, we don't know exactly, but like let's just drop whatever.

Speaker 2

But what the hell, yeah, because otherwise our guys are going to have to go in there, you know. And by the way, it's just one of the last analogy with Flujah we had. We didn't have as many tanks as Israeli's had, certainly not I mean I'm talking about it on the marine side, not at all, but we had the ones we had to use the good effect and the h and they were great. They are actually the Marine Corps doesn't have tanks anymore, but they were

an extraordinary, extraordinarily useful asset. And believe it or not, tanks actually help rather than indirect fire. Tanks help you cut down on colateral damage. Yes, I know that you know the velocity of the tank shell, but I'm but I'm talking about being able to pinpoint targets, to use thermals and all these other things to not not just shooting, but to establish where the thread is and to cover yourself as you cross danger areas. Anyway, remember what I'm saying,

and I use examples here in Gaza. The IDF define target defined targets very very broadly. And if you you know, as I have done, and examine this and looked at okay, why is this building being targeted? Well, we had a report from such and such that it was being used as a weapons storage place. How old is that? Report's three or four weeks? Okay, what exactly you know is being stored there? Well, you know, we think it's this

or that. It's very vague stuff. And of course things and people get moved around all the time in an urban environment.

Speaker 1

So let's say that'd be something if they had a report like that, Right, there's a weapons store at a certain building that's three or four weeks older. Report, they wouldn't send like a drone or some try to get some eyes on on it and see like confirming maybe no.

Speaker 2

And that's the other thing. They had more drones and we had we didn't have any drones in Fluijah. We had drones and mosol, but there's no shortage of assets. And where I'm heading on this is so yes, you confirm and then we've you know, we've got a termine. In the US military, it's been overused, but the unblinking

I right. So you lock on to the target, whether it's a human or it's its infrastructure, and you hold on to that to determine that you're getting the right person if it's a person, and to ensure that there is you know that there aren't civilians wandering in and out of the target area the area you're going to head.

The Israelis don't do that as a practice at all, and you know you're familiar with just as an example, the only strike they really investigated was the time when seven do you remember when seven World Central Kitchen Aid workers were killed in a convoy well marked, coordinated through the IDF and and there's you know, horrific I've seen horrific video with that, where each vehicle was destroyed in succession, right and everyone inside killed. Well, they lost They didn't.

First of all, they didn't. They didn't track that convoy. And having been on the other other side of the coin, I think, as you know, being in Ukraine running humanitarian convoys under fire and coordinating with the Ukrainian military being tracked all the time by friendly force is very important. They didn't do that, and they didn't, you know, they they weren't tracking what they thought was her mass target. They lost custody and then they picked it up and

assumed it was the Weld Central kitchen convoy. But there's no verification and so they blew it away. Now got that case was investigated because the Australian government launched a I mean, it was terrible publicity for them. The Austrian government launched i mean an official complaint. But there are many other cases of that happening. That was kind of the norm. It was just that one that was the

one time they investigated it. And so you know, civilian presence was frequently just assumed away rather than actively assessed. And you can look at my articles for you know, backing evidence backing this up. And so the result isn't just incidental civilian but it's repeated death. Okay, it's not mistakes happen. You hear that, Well, you know this shit happens. Yeah, it does. Sadly, of course it does, even when you

take taking all the precautions in the world. But repeated civilian death at scale that reflects the pattern with how decidents were being made. It's not the difficulty in the environment. And you know, you've You've probably read John Spencer's article saying that the you know, the IDF shows unparalleled restraint. That's the term that he uses that no Other's kind.

Speaker 1

Of scary that he could, like you, talk in absolutes like that, that they use unparalleled restraint. I mean, that's I feel like that's a bit of a stretch.

Speaker 2

But yeah, I mean, what's your author, doesn't it he unparalleled? Never before he uses a lot of absolutes in the first few paragraphs as an article on Newsweek magazine. It was republished elsewhere. He's appeared on CNN, major networks, and he's cited by This isn't about being pro or counter IDF. By the way, I do want to say this, and again no one can. They can't. But you know, I've been involved in in efforts to support and do things

for the IDF in the past. There's very probably, i would say very few people of my pier group within the military special operations community who are more closely involved with activities and efforts in support of Israel. So my credentials there are solid. I'm not jumping on the anti Israeli bandwagon here by any means, but I'm talking here. Remember about process. This is not an emotional argument, and so Spencer's arguments have been picked up by those defending

Israeli methodology as hey, look we've got this expert. Spencer calls himself an expert on his website. That's his choice. I personally avoid that term expert. I use the term student. I'm a student of modern war, an unwilling student at times, not an expert. And why does that matter? I think when you start calling yourself an expert, I think there's a danger that subconsciously you're going to cut yourself off

from ultimate points of view. Right anyway, So, you know, for instance, Spencer's article, and I do urge people to read it, he talks about he you know, he says that, hey, listen, the Israeli is used this process. It's just the same process as we use. But actually they're even more restrictive on how they exercise restraint.

Speaker 1

Well, so his articles, his article is essentially like the not defending IDEF in terms of like saying that they'd done more to show restraint than the American forces did in Fallujah or Massoul or any urban urban warfare.

Speaker 2

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So it's not the existence of the process. The process ostensibly is there, you know, targeting cells, legal advisors, precision guided with munitions, warning procedures. It's how they are applied, Okay, it's how they function under pressure that is the real truth teller. And I can't imagine from what Spencer has written that he really took a close look at how these processes functioned under pressure. I think I don't know how he wrote his article, but it looks as though

he just took it as face value. So all these things, you know, precision guide ammunitions, targeting cells, warning procedures are often cited as evidence that everything that's done to protect civilians. But let's, you know, let's take some examples I've already talked about. I've already talked about the how intelligence was interpreted,

how the Israelis dealt with intelligence uncertainty. Right, they accepted a very high level of intelligence and then for us, what would be an unacceptable level of then intelligence uncertainty. They didn't follow through, they did double sauce it, they didn't employ a blinking eye approach, they didn't track civilian patterns of life. So a lot of what they they

said was assumed. Plus you've got the fact that in Gaza, the density of the population was magnified many times by evacuation orders and and many times civilians were evacuated or told to move, they weren't aided and doing so from one area into another, and that area was subsequently bombed.

Evacuation Warnings in Gaza

Speaker 1

Also, the interesting thing about your article two that you mentioned, like like the what they do with like the roof knocking, or even like sending out messages to a phone network that is essentially degraded to the I'm purpose purposely degraded to a point where it doesn't work. But they let people know, hey, we're gonna bomb this shit out of

this area, so get out of the way. They send it on text or wherever phone calls, and people don't get the messages because their cell phone network is fucked up.

Speaker 2

Are internet is Yeah in the battle space where you know, electricity, cell you in a networks intended access have all been deliberately degraded. You can't assume warnings, warnings have reached civilians and you And the time allowed for people to move wasn't it wasn't realistic, you know, especially when you're talking about elderly or disabled people. And uh, and this this

discussion about roof knocking. So roof knocking is an idea of practice of firing a a smaller munition into the roof of a say a multi story apartment building, to warn the inhabitants that you're going to strike that building and to give them a chance to get out. Right.

While there's all kinds of problems with using an explosive munition to warn people that you're going to use explosive munitions, right, And I can tell you, having been under air attack and artillery bombardo myself, it's not intuitive, all right, or reliable like oh.

Speaker 1

That one was, that was a warning we better get out of here.

Speaker 2

Yeah, to distinguish between a bomb ammunition that's intended to kill you and the one that's intended to warn you. But you know, the bottom line is this, I mean warnings that do not reliably remove civilians from danger. They don't they don't meaningfully reduce civilian deaths. You know, in practice, they often function as a as a procedural step that allows us strike to proceed, rather than than to you know, rather than than than to really warn civilians to to get themselves out of the way.

Speaker 1

Let me ask you this about you know, they were to issue evacuation or is any mood folks to you know, different areas, as they were clean, as they were bombing specific areas, why do they let people leave Gaza? Right? We saw with Ukraine, right when Russia take you know, Ukraine.

Speaker 2

I mean, it's a great question, so you know, for and I'm not an IDF spokesman, but of course the IDEF would argue that was a security concern. There was nowhere to go, You couldn't Egypt wouldn't take them, and you're not going to let them onto Israeli soil because

now you've got that security concern on your own soil. Right. However, I would argue that the problem was this, there were all kinds of problems with communicating with the local population, as we pointed out, but there was no there's no clear, reliable way to ensure an effort made to ensure that they were safe evacuation zones. And what I'm saying here is that you don't you didn't have to evacuate the matter of Gaza if you really didn't believe that was

a security concern. I mean, in Gaza, I know everyone keeps saying how densely populated it Is, but there were there are far less than they within that. Within the strip, all right, it's like a twenty something kilometer mile strip. There are areas, for instance, the beach area by the coast there and and areas between the major population centers that could have been evacuation zones, evacuation corridors could have

been set up and lit. And the Israelis are very advanced when it comes to biometrics and combining biometrics with AI facial recognition. They're always already using this technology in the West Bank to to screen civilians moving from one

way one place to another. And it's very effective. If anyone who's gone from Israel into onto the West Bank knows, you don't see a human being when you go through all these turnstiles, but you are being screened, your faces being identified by H and match against you know, known bad actors. So they've got this technology, they could have set it up to ensure that they were evacuation and

they had organizations, relief organizations within the strip. And I spoke to South African who worked for the UN there and who explained how they you know that the UN was willing to assist the Israelis and setting up evacuation plans and to do much of the planning for them. All they needed was certain things from the Israelis to include forbearance and places, you know, where they would set up and assist in directing civilians, but they made no

effort to do so. Instead just drop leaflets or sent text messages saying, hey, you've got by noon to move from here to there, and this area is going to be rubbled. And then there was poor coordination within the IDF right. So again you can this up as a result of investigations. Often Israelis were heard. I mean it was Raeli's gardens were herded into areas which were then struck. And that wasn't purposeful necessary. I mean, it wasn't purposeful,

but it was. It was just poor coordination within the Israeli military.

Speaker 1

I mean, one thing that does happen more than once, Andy.

Speaker 2

Oh yeah, yeah, cubtinly, I mean, how is that.

Speaker 1

Poor coordination if it's happening multiple times.

Speaker 2

Again, I'm getting a little bit off track here, but one of the characteristics of the Israeli military that some people may find surprising, because you know, you always think of the Israeli military as as being representative as being forerunner and pushing mission command and initiative down to the lowest levels. That is not the IDF today. That was the IDF of maybe nineteen seven three, nineteen sixty seven, nineteen fifty six. But it's not the idea of today.

Decisions are made. It's a very hierarchical organization. It's very Middle Eastern organization in that respect. Information is not well shared between units, between organizations, and I think that resulted in a lot of these mistakes. And I call them mistakes because I'm not for a moment suggesting that these were purposeful, you know when this happened, but it's negligent.

And they happened because not enough again, you know, risk was pushed on the civilian population, which was an undercurrent of everything that I'm talking about, and I haven't even discussed, you know, the idef's attempts at population control during Operation Gideon's Chariots in twenty twenty five. But the goal is again to separate hamas from the local population and to move the population and into it's like a form of villageization. The British use the Malaya, we attempted, the United States

tended to use in Vietnam. You move the population into secure areas and you separate them from harmas. But you know that the concept wasn't bad, but the implementation was so so poorly done that it resulted, as you know, in widespread starvation. And whether you want to call it famine or not, that is what the UN ended up calling it. Certainly a number of I mean, the significant number of Gazans died of from lack of food, lack of water.

Human Shields Explained

Speaker 1

What about the argument about like hamas using human shields.

Speaker 2

Yeah, great, great arguments. So human shields arguments also frequently invoked to explain civilian deaths in Gaza. Now by you you've got to differentiate between harmas using civilians coercing them into position two shield fighters and harmas just simply operating from civilian areas. Okay, there's the distinction is important because international humanitarian law requires for the human shield argument to work that there'd be some element of coercion. There's been

no proof of that. In fact, although the Israelis commonly and there's no doubt about it, they listen harmas used civilian infrastructure, I mean, Thesuslamic state use embedded themselves in civilian infrastructure and mozor. It's a common feature of urban war.

But the Middle East Institute, reputable DC based think tankd an investigation into Israeli claims of human shield arguments and came out of the fact that although that argument was frequently cited, there was actually no proof of it actually occurring, and in cases where they said, you know, Shifa hospital is being used for this or that, they could produce

no evidence. But regardless, you know, international law is very clear enemy violations don't erase the attacking forces obligations, and civilian presence is still supposed to be a constraint or not an excuse. It's it's like the comedian what's his name, Bill Barr. Yeah, like he says, you know, if you want to beat the shit out of your neighbor and he's holding a baby, you don't punch him through the baby, right. I mean, that was essentially the ideas argument that reference.

Speaker 1

That was very nice in the area.

Speaker 2

When civilians can't be separated from the battlefield. International laws places the obligation on the attacking force to exercise greater restraint, not not acceptance about.

Speaker 1

How let's just wipe everybody out. Yeah, at that point, let's just new Gaza. If that's the look.

Speaker 2

I mean, we've seen this before in mos All where I offerne strikes. The Islamic State was deeply embedded in the civilian population. They use protected science to include mosques, They constrained civilian movements. So there is proof, you can look this up, absolute proof that they did use humans civilians as shields in Mosul and and yet civilian to combat and death ratios are significantly lower than in Gaza.

And when you factor in the number of civilians killed by the Islamic State, that ratio becomes even more dramatic that that that contrast.

Speaker 1

So so, like I read Spenser's stuff and one of the things he said about like you can't really judge proportionality if you're not if you don't have access to classified intel. That was like one of like the you know, like you don't really know what's going on and why they're doing this because you don't have access to the to the classified stuff.

Speaker 2

Yeah, I mean he kind of dodges the he kind of misses the point there. So that's exactly right. He said, Well, he talks about using a small you know, how do you know what munition should be used, you know, expert, that's not the point. Commanders are commanders because they are judged competent to make those calls. Right of proportionality, That's really what he's talking about. You know, how how do I deal with this threat and cause the minimum number

of minimum number of casualties? As far as the intelligence argument, it's irrelevant. What I'm arguing is it doesn't matter. You know. The whole point is not what an outsider knows. It's what that commander knows for sure, and what he's assuming. And my point is that for us in the US military, the honest on you to verify that intelligence, all right, And so this is rather a convent opaque argument. And then Spencer says, well, they use precision guided munitions. They do.

But the point is a precision guided munition can cause just as many civilian casualties to fit if you know, if it hits a target that hasn't been assessed for civilian presence, right. Precision and delivery is not the same as precision and targeting. So a bomb can strike exactly where you intended to and still kill civilians in large numbers if the target itself was poorly defined or your intelligence was stale and you hadn't verified civilian presence orthough you know civilian pattern of life.

Speaker 1

Andy, let me ask you. You mentioned about the unblinking eye, like what the US would do, like we would have eyes on a target or a potential target.

Speaker 2

I like the way you said that. See what you did that? Yeah?

Speaker 1

Thank you? Uh like a subscribe. Why would in Israel do that? You know they're technologically advanced, they're using drones that you know, they're modern military. Why not do that at up for a particular target?

Speaker 2

Well, I you know, I'm speculating here because it wasn't Look, you've got the rules right, You've got the law of armed conflict, and then you have your procedures. But the culture within an organization matters a lot. You know. I can tell you having served in Iraq and Afghanistan that overwhelmingly the institutional impetus was on sparing civilian life, on minimizing heroic restraint, right was the term that we would use.

What that meant is someone has to bear risk in war, either soldiers accepted or civilians do all those of them they don't willingly accept it. Right In the US military, it's a much more balanced discussion. We can't routinely shift risk onto civilian forces. Sometimes we have to bear a portion of that risk if we're uncertain about civilian presence

AI Targeting & Blowback

and so, or there is a significant civilian presence and so we can't use the munitions that we require before an attack. We have to accept that it's going to be a little more dangerous to attack that objective. And making this sound quite simplistic, these are hard goals, but that's the bottom line. But we hear that from our commanders, and we had tactical directives all the time in Afghanistan outlining that as a policy. It is very clear that

that was institutionalized in the IDF. That is not the case. You have civilian leaders. You know, you've got the head of military intelligence, Halivi, saying, I mean it was leaked. You know, he didn't tend to say this publicly, but you know the fact is he was head of military intelligence and he said, hey, we're going to kill fifty Palestinians for every Israeli we lost some seven October and then says it doesn't matter if their children, that's just

the that's the way it's going to be. All Right, You've got that you've got Gallant talking about we're going to cut off that food, We're going to cut off the water. They're just animals. You've got the.

Speaker 1

What's interesting is Gallant's been, you know, ever since he resigned or got fired, was like touted as like the sane one in that well that that wut.

Speaker 2

I guess it's all relative, isn't it. You've got Hurtzel, you know, who is the supposedly liberal president saying, hey, the whole population is responsible for seven October, all right, And so you've got this institutional messaging. Do you really think that commanders? Then? And then you've got this you know, as they said, only one investigation was ever canted and to a strike gone wrong, and that was the World's

Central Kitchen strike, and that was after Australia objected. So Commander's no, you know, the messaging isn't Hey, you've got these procedures. There's a law of armed conflict, that is who gets fired when shit goes wrong? All right? And when that isn't happening, when you're hearing your own leaders going their animals they're responsible, Hey, fifty of them should die for everyone. Do you really think you're going to

exercise heroic restraint. I mean, you know, so I mean that that and and then you get this these investigative reports coming out about how AI was integrated into targeting. Well, that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's if you're using it to support decisions. But if you're using it as a robber stamp, and and the and the human and the luke is simply going okay, okay, okay, then then

that becomes problematic. You have Lamont's investigative arm report that shows that, you know, for every hamass fighter, it's really idea of constructions were, hey, you know, you can kill twenty or twenty civilians Jesus Christ, you know, and that's just for lower level guys. I mean, that's a pretty significant threshold. We wouldn't have that, we wouldn't word things that way. And the point is you're going to tell people you can kill twenty civilians. Do you think they're

going to stop there? Oh hey it was fifty? Or is? I mean? So this is these are what I'm saying is that the institutional messaging was such that it really it it suggested restraint was a bad thing. Now, if you challenge all of those things, well, you know, these are far I'll go revert to Oakham's razor, the fact that these are far more plausible explanations for why one hundred thousand or seventy thousand, which of a number you

believe or people were killed. Then unparalleled restraint, which is what Spencer says.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I don't know how you can eat.

Speaker 2

That's a tough Yeah, tough. So anyway, I mean, you know, and what happened, what's happening was civilian death was treated as an acceptable cost of doing business, an acceptable price to pay for the speed, the tempo, force protection that you needed in order to execute the campaign. All right, And.

Speaker 1

What's interesting, like you mentioned, not the harp on it, but like you mentioned, it's just going to regenerate, insure insurgents.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

I hate like that too, because these are human beings that have lost lives and lost loved ones, right, Like it's a terrible thing that's going on. But the fact is human nature's human nature, and people are gonna want aya after they see a family member get killed and you know, lose their lives.

Speaker 2

Yeah, And you know, as we said, I mean, this matters beyond legal debates or moral outrage. It becomes a strategic liability, and we learned how in an Iraq and Afghanistan. When when the bottom line is this, I mean you can you can refute, try and refute this, but it's very difficult when you look at the studies that have

been being conducted and this. When civilians are killed in large numbers, it fuels recruitment, it hardens opposition, It undermines your legitimacy, which is an important point, and it prolongs conflict. And so you know, tactical gains achieved through through civilian destruction almost always generate long term insecurity.

Speaker 3

OK.

Speaker 2

So the I know we a community end here, but I mean, I look, you know, civilians, you're not going to make war clean. You can't afford. I mean, you're just not. It's never going to be a point where we can avoid civilian casualties, most certainly in urban warfare. Civilians are killed at this scale as they were and killed in Gaza. It's not because urban warfare makes restraint impossible. They're killed when civilian protection is not treated as a

governing requirement of how force is applied. I mean, urban warfare's brutal civilian death. As they said, you can't ever eliminate it entirely, But how much death occurs and who bears the risk, that's a matter of choice. It's a matter of institutional choice, and in Gaza, the evidence suggests that those choices were pushed onto the civilians and with profound human and I would argue strategic strategic costs.

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah, it's it's a fucking it's just sad. One more tactical question. I remember we've talked about this many times on Eyes On How you mentioned like the IDF doesn't do clear and hold. Yeah, I mean, was that like me, they wouldn't clear and hold, They would just take out a place and then leave. Would that cause.

Speaker 2

That added to that's certainly added to the confusion. Now, I will say I'll qualify that statement a little bit by saying during Gideon's Chariots in twenty twenty five, they seem to have learned their lesson a little bit more. The bulk of units still pulled back into an improvised farb's combat outposts they call mcnun's, which are you know, kind of little fortified at hop fortified positions within the city. But this causes problems because you're clear during the day.

They don't. They the conventional infantry unit. It's we're not operating at night. I don't know why not. I think it may have come down to training. They had night vision goggles, but they just weren't operating at night. So they would clear an area, they would move back into

their mcnone at nights was the pattern. Now during the during the night, no that you know, Yes, her mass would have some freedom of movement, but the civilians would move back into the areas because they would hear the sounds of fighting gone, and so they would move back in the area. And then you get the look wide e F unit coming out and clearing that area again

assuming everything there is her maas. And look, I haven't talked about the fact that you know, I just talked about indirect fire, but there are a lot of problems with how the Israelis exercise fire control, fire discipline or lack thereof. In fact, they had free fire zones. You know, you've the significant amount of evidence to show that. My own interviews with people showed that areas where anything, you know,

they could shoot anything or anyone. And and and in a in an urban environment densely packed, you're going to get civilians wandering into those.

Speaker 1

Area didn't have to be armed either.

Speaker 2

Look, I mean, I'm this is where you can get into, well, our rules of engagement say this. I'm talking about practice though, intractice and and yes you can look at you can look at all the evidence on online and I'm talking about investigation. If that doesn't you know, if that doesn't swear you, I mean I've I've me convinced, yes, absolutely it was a it was people were shot when very

clearly they didn't have weapons consistently at scale. I a friend of mine who I interviewed for the book but by no means uh, left wing leading hard liberal, former South African Special Operations guy and another guy former Royal Marine Okay operating with the u N told me that, you know, part of their job was just to gather bodies in the morning every morning, because of course it was a health has it and you know they would they'll tell you elderly disabled and all their time, all

their time operating in Gaza, they never never came across a single body with a weapon. And you could say, well, you know the weapons were removed really, you know, consistently all the time from all those bodies come on. So anyway, I mean I'm getting off track here. A little bit in my article is not even based on that. But I'm saying again this gets back to an institutional culture. I mean, the Israeli shot three of their own hostages,

even after their hostages came out waving white flags. I mean, this is all in covered in the Israeli media, covering white flags accompanied by an Israeli officer. All right, they still shot them.

Speaker 1

Swimming they were signed with an Israeli officer as well.

Speaker 2

Yeah, yeah, I mean it wasn't You can look at look up the account of how it happened.

Speaker 1

I remember when it when it went.

Speaker 2

No one was burned for that, no one got in trouble for that. I mean that, and yet there was all kinds.

Speaker 1

Of nothing was like. And it was relatively early on too, I believe, right it wasn't like and you know they were not saying.

Speaker 2

I want to say it was in like April twenty twenty four. But anyway, so d that's pretty much it.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I don't want the credible article. I want everyone to check it out.

Speaker 2

You know, why didn't you invide John Spencer on to uh To to offer a counter argument. I think that would be a great idea.

Speaker 1

Against that game. John, if you're listening, Yeah, immate baby, let's get you on and we'll hash this out. Mud Wrestle. Check out. I want everyone to check out Andy's article. The link is in the description. It's for One on the Rocks. It's an incredibly it's a really good article. And of course Andy's book, When the Tempest Gathers incredible book. We're looking forward to the new books that are coming out,

so stay tuned for that your sub stack. All those links are in the description or in the show notes if you're listening, so check them out. Andy.

Speaker 2

I love you, aways, great time, Tee, all the best.

Speaker 1

Thanks everybody.

Speaker 3

Hey guys, I want to tell all of you today about a new newsletter that we're launching that encompasses both the team House podcast, the eyes On podcast, and the high Side News outlet, which I run with Sean Naylor. The newsletter is going to be once a week. It's going to come into your inbox and you're going to get the most current podcasts on eyes On and the team House and whatever's topical or current on the high Side.

So it's another way for us to get the information out to you, as social media algorithms are pretty iffy and you never really know.

Speaker 1

What you're gonna get. So this is a once a week email.

Speaker 3

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Speaker 1

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Speaker 3

The website for it is Teamhouse Podcast dot kit dot com, slash Join Teamhouse Podcast dot kit dot com slash Join. You go there and you enter into your email list or you enter your email into the little thing on the website and you're good to go.

Speaker 1

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Speaker 3

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Speaker 1

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Speaker 3

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