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Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of Iizong. I'm Andy Milburn, I'm Jason.
Lyons, I'm Dimitri Comtacos.
It's amazing. We've got that absolutely down to a t. So we need to change that routine. Yeah, Unfortunately we have coming back to us Mark Pam forgive me for referring to him as Ad.
All of us can pronounce.
His name but this but but simply you know his h He's familiar to to a large number of our listeners. But we have a rapidly burgeoning that is growing audience.
So for those of you are not Mark's an old friend of the team house and uh and and the we hope of our's hosts, at least now for now former Senior's almost about say yes, because that's that's kind of an am the tea house, but even better, very senior guy in the in the agency and you know Mark, or Mark's very self effacing about this, but has has an unusual operational background too, for someone who starts started off as a case officer uh and and rose to
the agencies and when the agencies, you know, highest ranks, but perhaps more importantly, is widely respected among agency guys, but also a lot of guys in the military who've worked with him, especially in soft and especially in Afghanistan. But since leaving the military, Mark has has actually given life to that rather dead expression consultant and and and appears when he appears on TV, it's he's actually worth watching.
Very I one.
I get a lot of a lot of material from Mark without without plagiarizing him too much anyway, I hate to a long long lead in Mark, great to have you. What is going on in Kursk?
Well, first of all, thanks Andy and Jason and d thank you so much for having me. I love the show, love coming on. It's you know, it's great to do kind of a long form discussion. I'm used to these, you know, thirty or forty five second sound bites you know on TV. And Andy, just just one thing. Kind of the secret of the business is, you know, everyone is humble. So I listened to what you all say
too as well. I listen to others. There's no such thing as there's no such thing as borrowing analysis from other commentators because uh, you know, who the hell knows if we're if we're ever right, cursk has been has been. Let me let me put it this way. When I say fun, that's a horrible word to say in terms
of war. But for for a couple of reasons, I've I've certainly enjoyed this, you know, first and foremost, Uh, there is a kind of a cast of characters in the foreign policy blob in Washington, amongst the some of the think tanks. And I'm not gonna name names because that's stupid and I don't want to, you know, go down that road. But there's all this dooming always that goes on about Ukraine that you know, you know, it's it's always the end. It's almost impossible to find anyone
to say anything positive that's happening. And so this has been pretty extraordinary. This is a success. You know, we can we can debate for for for as long as we want about why the Ukrainians did this. We actually don't know particularly, and we can we can talk about it, whether it's for morale boost, whether it's for future pow swaps, whether it's for future negotiations when Ukraine actually has Russian territory.
But it's a positive story. And even you know, Washington Post this morning ran a story, or the New York Times, I can't remember, and it's always the Ukrainians are doing great. But it is impossible for kind of the outlytic class following Russia to say anything good. I mean, it's it's almost you know, we still keep treating Russia as ten feet tall militarily. It drives me nuts. But here's where it's really important. Guess what didn't happen with this? There
was no fucking US whining, There was no complaints. Now in all the press reports we heard that this took the US by surprise. That's bullshit. There is an incredible intelligence soak there of human intelligence, signals, intelligence, certainly imagery, and there's also and I'll you know, not to get too much in trouble in this. When we work with foreign liaison, we also penetrate foreign liss Liz, And there's nothing fucking that happens in that country that we don't
know about. I'm sorry. So the idea that we didn't know is bullshit. And you know, I think that's done for What we always mean is we weren't told. We weren't told, we knew that, and that we knew and Andy, guess what we didn't do. We didn't whine about it. You didn't have the chief of station or the ambassador go and do the little finger wagging to the Ukrainians, which is incredibly annoying every time they did something daring
in the past. And that's the story. So the story to me is the US is okay with another country invading Russia. That's pretty fucking incredible. And so you know, that's what we tried to kind of talk about in in in the media, and you know, ultimately that is a sea change from the handwringing and you know, I mean the NFC wakes up every morning. You know, you're always gonna get unfiltered shit for me, and it's I've had a couple of cups of coffee, so here we go.
But the National Security Council gets up every morning. The first thing they do, after you know, taking a dump, is they start worrying about escalation. That's the thing. I think they have T shirts made, uh and so, but in this case, they're not doing it. And I think that is amazing. And maybe, and maybe this is becoming too optimistic. Is at the end of Joe Biden's presidency where the United States has done, at the same time an extraordinary amount for Ukraine but also withheld a lot
and probably cause a lot of unnecessary guests. But maybe we're going to allow the Ukrainians to take the gloves off. And so I think that's the that's the story. But you know what interesting to hear your guys take on this too.
Well, I am yeah, I mean I don't have any instantly track on this. It it struck me by surprise, but the interest here's some interesting things about it. So I from my perspective, Yeah, number one, I think that's that that is so incredibly refreshing that we're not playing kind of you know, this frightened old woman in the kitchen, wringing our hands every time, and and yet at the
same time stop Ukraine for ammunition. You know that was that was the ironic thing, wagging our finger and let yet going through this ridicut kill us domestic uh kabuki dance, which that costs lives. We all know that they cost lives. But more important, perhaps more importantly, shut up, sir, but perhaps more importantly we we lost some of our leverage there as far as you know, the what we were doing to the Russians five Ukrainians and Russians were willing
to adapt. So I think this is entirely positive. The other thing, but the other side from the US reactions, what really surprises me is the Russian reaction, or lack thereof.
Remember, you know train the counter isis campaign.
If we even straight over that boundary into this land, they went ape ship right, you know, because they knew that.
It's symbolic.
Whether the Russians know how important this is a putin, does You've we've seen one TV losing his mind, and yet the response has been pathetic and and the prisoners that the Ukrainians surrounding up perhaps an indicator of of why that is. You know, a lot of cons I mean they're all conscripts, but you know, the prisoners guys from National Guard, internal military force, so that this was an economy of force thing that the Russians, you know
that the defensive positions groundcase. Ukrainians knew that took advantage of it. And you know, it's a Theta company now. And and I think the Ukrainians have surprised themselves with their success because of the lack of counterattacks last thing though they have now probably even even with the lack of resistance, they're approaching that culminating point, and they've got to make a decision what to do, you know, right?
So yeah, so what comes next? I mean, I don't know, that's a that's a great question. But what is you know, and and you know, the the the other part of this, of course, there's a there's a piece of the Washington Post today that and I have heard snippets of this maybe you have as well, as there have been behind the scenes kind of talks about future negotiations. Yeah, and uh, that was really interesting. Wasn't it. Yeah, and I and i'd heard that kind of just you know, kind of
through the great finding. And frankly, look, if Ukrainians want to do this, it's up. If my my view has always been Ukraine will settle this on, you know, when they're ready to settle this, and it should not be forced on by the United States. And so uh uh and I guess I guess, you know, we'll see how this how this goes. I mean, I don't know. I was, you know, watching obviously, you know, following all the open source stuff yesterday, and I see, you know, they're dropping bridges.
I mean, this is this using US armaments. So this is fantastic. Uh And uh, you know, let's see let's and and and you know, the f sixteens. How much are they in play? You know, who knows? But I guess that The other point just to make is I still don't understand why kind of this weird world that we live in that it is impossible to under to actually celebrate Ukrainian successes without kind of the dooming that
goes on. I mean, you know, really there's there's so much of Ukraine is doing well, but you know, Russia is going to you know, russ reinforcements. Russia is going to do this that you know, it's it's very odd. I don't know if that kind of translates maybe your contacts and the Pentagon, but it certainly is in kind of the think tank class that drives me nuts.
Yeah, I don't have an answer for you. I think though, perhaps it's a response to the fact that pundits went strongly the other way back in twenty twenty two. Right, it was this kind of euphoria and feeling that you know, the war would end soon. I mean, it was kind of implicit, and I think that's probably kind of just a suburban claud Switz reaction to the fact that that didn't happen.
It's, you know, any any.
Balanced story, it's got to obviously, you know, there's enough to be pessimistic about. It's very interesting what you said about the talks and Cutter.
Yeah.
Now, my understanding is those talks were exclusively focused, supposed to be exclusively focused from the Ukrainian perspective on kind of an agreement on the energy sector. On both side, it's like hands off, hands off infrastructure everything from you know, for for safety concerns, about nuclear plants to the fact that Ukraine's hanging on by its fingernails, you know, this last winter and it's not looking forward to this next winter, and wants to impose some costs on Russia in order
to have a bargaining tool and cutter. That was kind of that was my impression of it, you know, and from an official stance, Ukrainians are saying no negotiation until all Russian boots are off, even out of Crimea. But it's interesting, yeah, that was that. That's the first negotiation, actually the first kind of negotiating, substantive negotiation, you could say, since the you know all the arguments about green export.
Right right, then you forget from one thing. I want to raise though for the audience, and I think this is important part and this kind of applies to everybody here, you know. I always look at these conflicts as as a former practitioner, which means I wasn't at the National Security Council, I wasn't at CI headquarters. I wasn't attending
you know, white House meetings in the situation room. I always I always try to think about this as, okay, what if I was with my old colleagues in the field in the in the AO uh uh, and we'll just we'll kind of leave it as in the Ukraine AO to protect what we're doing and what we're not.
But that means, you know, there's there's a great deal of side by sides with our Ukrainian partners, and you know, for the and I think there there's always has been, and I and talking to my friends who've come back from Ukraine, I mean there's a little bit of embarrassments the wrong word, because we've helped them tremendously, but you know,
we also have held back on aid. There is you know, a big domestic constituency constituency in the United States who is kind of viscerally opposed uh to US assistants to Ukraine. So if you're a if you're a you know, someone from you from SAFF from the intelligence community, and you're working side by side with the Ukrainians, there were some tough times. Yeah, you know, you had to do a
lot of explaining you know why. For example, uh, you know, if you're next to someone from you know, Ukrainian military intelligence whose family is hiding in a shelter, maybe you know family members have been killed, you know why the
US is not doing enough. So for the first time, what I was thinking about the other day was, Hey, you know, if you're a US practitioner on the ground, you know, this is a time where you know you're looking at your you know, your Ukrainian colleague across the table or sitting next to you, you know, having a you know, having a beverage, and you can have some pride in that the US is actually kind of doing the right thing and we're letting the Ukrainians take the
gloves off a little bit. That always kind of runs through my mind because you know, it's you know, the one thing we do to our detriment is we fall in love with our partners. I did that with the Kurds, I did that with Syrians. I did that certainly with the Afghans.
Is an American thing. I think it's an American thing, and we also something proud of too. Yeah, yeah, I mean.
So I thought that was kind of that's an interesting just kind of I'm sure some of our old colleagues are feeling pretty good that they can kind of sit with a lot of pride next to the Ukrainians in these days.
It's it's an anomaly. We've We've spoken about this before
on the program. Mark is that you know, in our former professions, you know, military, on the intelligence agency, people tend to be right of center, right, you know, especially in the United States, less so in European militaries where you see more of a kind of an equal distribution, but certainly in the military, we tend to be you know, pretty conservative, small big c. And yet we've got this anomaly where you have a conservative element within the United
States opposing a to Ukraine for reasons that define me. You know, the chance to break down an enemy, a longstanding enemy, whether it's communists or now an autocratic state, it's an enemy of the United States, sprinking and reducing their ability to exert power on their neighbors is absolutely in our national interests. And if we can do that it costs only financial costs and not a single drop of NATO blood.
Why the hell wouldn't we do that? That's that is what blows me out of the water.
And and my colleagues, regardless of how they vote or none of them, none of them can explain why that is the case, why we would refuse to support Ukraine. I mean, what the fuck?
I mean? At a cost of money.
Complain with the richest nation. I know we throw We've all seen money thrown away on ridiculous stuff in Afghanistan and Iraq. At last there is a chance to see our butt actually buy something in terms of you know, I had to say it, but the blood of our.
Enemy right without cost.
But that is too expensive, never mind twenty years of war in our own blood and treasure for no gain at all.
And not have said it better. I agree thousand percent. And I've had huge arguments. I mean there's you know, you know, I was I was talking to a friend of mine. He's a it was a former Air Force still in the reserves, he said, kind of on the air Force blogs. There's this kind of virulent anti Ukraine streak too. I just don't understand it.
Well. I mean, that's I think one thing we can explain there is it's an air Force blog.
I mean, I mean, it's a different type.
It can't I mean, you know, I mean it's super bright, but they are when we're talking Foma military, I don't necessarily include the Air Force in that, you know what I mean, They're a wild call right.
In my conversations. It's when it's come up.
It's always been uh implied, and that sometimes outright said that it's because they are in office. We know who there is, you know, the other side. But if it was their side that was in office, they'd be all for it. So that's what I'm getting. I'm not saying that that's the majority and that's the whole reason, but that's.
You know, and I'm hearing you know that they you.
Know, we missed the old national security Republicans. I mean, just that's just that's just a fact. I don't know what's happened, Yeah, exactly. Now, you did have Lindsey Graham, you know who is, you know, in you know, the other day kind of screaming for you know, former F sixteen pilots to come volunteer to go to Ukraine, which I thought was first of all, pretty funny, nothing wrong with that, But that's a boat from the blue was out of nowhere. Okay.
The same guy who's demanding that, Zleinsky comes and visits him in his office to explain, you know, I mean, right, these kinds, Yeah, there's no consistency. It's based on on that perception of constituent bias, right or emotion.
I mean Lindsay Graham is relatively hawkish, though he was talking about preemptive strike and Iran from sure.
Yeah, he's pretty out good.
I mean, there are plenty of national security Republicans, the kind of old school ones, and some of them, you know, are you know, run powerful committees in Congress. You know, you have all the mics. Who is it, Mike Turner, McCall others, and uh, but it's just the Republican Party changed. I mean, I'm sorry that, you know, the presidential candidate for the Republicans hates Ukraine and doesn't want to spend a penny on this, and so I think that's a problem.
And I'm not you know, I don't think I'm making a political statement, uh when I uh.
What's what's even worse is when they drag up a guy who's you know, we have a point political, but you know, a PAO enlisted marine and then quote him as though he's the you know, I mean we're talking about JD.
Vance.
I mean, I have no opinion of him, you know, other than that, but let's put this in context. He was an enlisted p AO, right, he was six months in Iraq? Yeah, in Iraq. I mean that doesn't make him an expert on national security, but his comments are being taken as though they came from the Delphi Oracle, you know, like it's absurd.
Anyway, back to uh, you digressed into the politics exactly what we didn't want to do.
Yeah, anyway, No, I mean back to so what next month? What do you think is going to happen?
So I think that, you know, the kind of the key points on this obviously are November the presidential election in the United States, and and I you know, the you know so much you know rides on that. At the same time, though, you know, just having been in I was in Greece for a couple of weeks, I stopped in the UK. I mean, there is is a feeling that the Europeans have stepped up. And if you just look at numbers in terms of European assistants Ukraine, it's pretty pretty amazing.
You know.
Again, charges that the that the US has bankrolled everything is bullshit. Ukraine has has put up a huge amount of resources. And and you have countries, you know, kind of the the you know, in the in Central Europe or or maybe the not that not the older not not Germany or or France or the UK, but you have countries like Poland in frontline states that are really hawkish that understand, uh, the Russian threat. So I think that Europe just in general is in a much better
position on this. And and one kind of one other note there, and you know, perhaps and I think I'm I'm right on this, is that there's not that there's not political divides between left and right. For example, in the UK, you know changing you know, changing government policy, and Ukraine's the same, and I think that's important. You know, Germany is having some issues now. But you know, when I when I've talked to my contacts in Germany, because you know, there's been a kind of a halt on
German assistance. There's this is this is you know, they're running around and this has to do with a budget issue rather than actual kind of you know, lack of German resolve and so so ultimately I think that you know, Europe is in it, and it is in a much better position too. And again for this to kind of be a sustained fight, that's going to have to be have to be the case. Uh, it will be uh, you know, if if the Republicans win in the presidency
in November the United States. You know, US is going to take a much different role obviously with with Ukraine, and that's some concern. But you know, in talking to kind of senior European officials when I was there, as I'm sipping my uzo on the Greek islands, I still had some contact with folks.
Uh. Uh.
They know what they have to do, and so I'm I you know, I'm not as pessimistic about the future. And the last point too is look, I was I was certainly not a military analyst, but I do think that obviously the attack on has arrived. This is an issue we talked about for months and months and they've been put to good use. They have sixteens are now you know, flying over the skies and I do think US kit matters and so we'll see, you know, what
the Ukrainians can do finally, if they're outfitted correctly. Still huge manpower issue. I mean, you know, you guys know this even more than I do. From from from time there. You know, what are they gonna do about conscription? Uh? You know, Russia does have a numerical advantage of people. Uh, but you know, the Ukrainians have surprised this time and
again and so uh so, so we'll see. I would not I am not pessimistic, but I do think you're kind of right in the sense that we shouldn't kind of you know, uh, you know, fall completely in the camp of Ukraine's about to win now, just because they've had some success over the last you know, nine ten days.
Yes, certainly, you know, if you look at a map dr I've found one that I'll send you.
You can post however you wish.
But you know, the the it's really interesting as far as the decisions now in the Ukrainian general's hands or Zanewsky's hands, you know, I mean, do they hold you know, the immediate concern, do they hold that territory? I mean, I think, you know, regardless of all the reasons to do this, and you know, I think it's hard to argue against the fact that it that it was inspired. But at the same time, now how to take advantage
of it. And the problem is with holding that terrain is defending it, especially with air defense, is going to be a real issue because you know, as you know, Ukraine's so now it's extended its lines. There's already this kind of internal struggle between prioritizing air defense, whether on the front line or infrastructure, and so in a sense,
now extending this makes that worse. So holding in place may not be what they can do, but certainly and it would seem a shame to withdrawal back to their their lines and make this kind of a raid and a bluff. Right, So I think probly somewhere in between sworlds back to a more defendable position. But the key thing that you kind of contact and pointed out is that it's still kind of in a diet position in Donbass.
I mean, the Russians are within fifteen kilometers of pop Rods, which is, you know, along with Krematos, the two major cities left.
In one thing to raise. This is actually something that I that I thought was quite quite remarkable, an incredible Wall Street journal piece on nord Stream too. Yes, essentially the Ukrainians fucking did it. And so this is something that of course tell the story. This is a great one, man. I mean, I've known about this for a long time from kind of all sorts of media contacts who is kind of percolated about. But so here's the thing. At
the end of the day, nobody gives a shit. So and that's incredible, and he's about very briefly what happened or so, so you know, this was again I'm gonna I don't have anything in front of me here, but this is what are we It's a it's a year and a half ago. It's quite something. Yeah, yeah it was.
It was not yet exactly twenty twenty two, isn't it mid twenty twenty two?
So you know, the pipeline mysteriously explodes and everyone thought the Russians done it.
I actually I got Timber twenty six twenty two.
I remember going on the media saying that as well.
So I was.
I was obviously wrong. And at some point someone kind of called me and said, hey, you might want to stop saying that.
Now this is just for so the this is the PEMP pipeline. Can you just talk a little bit about the background, what it but the pipeline does.
And go you're gonna get You're gonna do this better than me. I'm gonna botch this.
Yeah.
So, so the the the pipeline we're talking about, the north Stream Pipeline takes I think it's again, I'm pretty un screwed up but it's liquid, it's l A. I think it's l n G from Russia to you know, to UH to Germany, right.
And natural gas pipeline from Russia to Germany.
Yeah, so I got it right.
And and it was the source of contention uh in in the months leading up to the war because it put Germany and in the you know, the way that the United States and UK looked at it, certainly within NATO in the Germany kind of supplicant of Russia. It gave Russia great leverage over Germany, and it did look as though Germany was kind of politically voting, you know, with that knowledge in mind.
That was the concern, right, because the economy they were very worried about economic effects that they shut off kind of that you know, the input of gas, which which you know that's they're not They were not incorrect to have that, to have that concern. But then, but you know, and and and kind of many of us thought that the Russians were kind of behind this, some kind of
COVID action. But it turns out just again for the listeners of the Ukrainians, looks like with kind of this bizarre operation that had some kind of private involvement of former Ukrainian uh, you know, special operations divers UH known to the Ukrainian military. Zelensky turned it off because the agency found out about it. I mean, this is the story in the Wall Street Journal. So I'm not confirming
or denying anything, but ultimately Ukrainians did it. And if this had come out a year and a half ago, it would have been a huge mess politically in Germany. But right now nobody seems to care because everyone has kind of made that decision to support Ukraine. So again, the big picture on this, it's a it's a spy story, it's a movie. Someone's got to write a movie on this.
The real story is that nobody seems to really kind of bat an eye on this, and that to me shows the evolution of thinking in Europe.
Uh.
And you know, and there there are certainly some some of those and I tend to agree with this is that you know that of course, the German government has known this forever and they they kind of stuck it in these law enforcement, you know, legal channels, so it would take a long time to be investigated and to come out. So again, having made that political decision to
support Ukraine, which might have been harder. Uh if in effect, and I mean this, you could also make the argument this was an attack by Ukraine on a NATO country. It's pretty funny, yeah, do you think, uh?
I mean probably what has helped play in Ukraine's favor here is the fact that there have been since then, Russian sabotage attempts in Germany, right in nationals.
There's been Germans who have been arrested for espionage. I mean, there's been this amazing explosies Russian intelligence malfeasans in Germany too, Right, So there's this this certainly a much more growing anti Russian sentiment. When I talked to some German journalists on this, they're very you know, very clear on that. But again, this, you know, this is one of those one of those This must frustrate the Russians to no end. I mean, they know they didn't do it, they were blamed for it,
they know who did it. There was no political repercussions for this, and so you know, in some ways it's going to make a hell of a movie, But I don't think it's going to have any kind of effect. I mean, other people, you know, might might disagree with the old news news. Yeah, it's a great and and some of these, you know, I remember, I think it's someone from the Washington Post who called me originally and said,
you know, you think the Russians did it? And I said, yeah, you know, they were reminding me now how wrong I was. So Hey, sometimes.
Mark, I got a question. We definitely helped, Right, let's be on. You don't know have to confirm it, you know, not at all? Okay, all right, sure.
No, because because d here's the thing, this is a time where you know, we couldn't give a hello kid bag to the Ukrainians without there being hard palpitations at the NSC. You know, you're talking about you know, our MRI is going to cost you know, cause World War three. So the idea that we helped them do this is ludicrous. I mean, really, we just.
Did not the polls.
I mean I would I would read the Wall Street Journal piece pretty good. Okay.
So I and this was the time when in the Mozart group I received a very formal letter from the State Department explaining how I was not breaking ITAR regulations by training Ukrainian soldiers. Okay, those of you who know about ITAR regulations know that's you know, it just doesn't make sense when you're teaching first day. Yeah, when you're teaching the first day. You know, I had to break
down in ak forty seven. ITAR has nothing to do with it, but someone you know, this was all the part of Hey, what is second?
This is scary.
These guys are Americans in Ukraine doing these things. They must be violating something, so they look for ITAR.
You know, hey, do you explain what ITAR is real? Quick?
Should I?
Currently?
I mean, it's a it's a.
It's a law that that governs the exchange of highly technical, deadly.
Information International Traffic in Arms Regulations.
Yeah, okay, So so teaching guys how to you know, put on a pressure bandage is not discovered or or even teaching them how to shoot a weapon is not you know, it's not governed by ITAR. But yeah, and most you know, everyone in the State Department knows that.
But the fact that we received this letter and then it became, you know, it became that's where the intercept got hold of and it may became if hey, look there they are in Ukraine, but that in retrospect, you know, ITAR regulations really is that what you were worried about I mean, no, of course, no one was worried about that. They were worried about escalation, they were worried about the perception of Americans being seen in Ukraine on the side, and so they were trying to squeeze us out.
Let me one more quick here just because because again I'm I'm I'm going to be you know, I'm gonna be an Atlanticist here. I'm actually I'm very kind of pleased to how the Europeans have reacted over the last several months. Fresh President mccron comes out and says, fuck it, let's put military advisors in Ukraine. Yeah, and you know, and so so like just that evolution and the Brits
have have special operations special points. That is that's the that's the the you know, the the story that hasn't been told on that is the British Special operations community and what they've done inside and which is uh our old soft colleagues, uh you know, who are training Ukraine's in Germany are kind of salivating at what the Brits
are able to do. But but again, but putting this all together, so you know, the incredible kind of uh British costs versus benefit calculus they are, you know there there there is no risk aversion on the British government.
They the storm Shadow missiles right breaching, every single breaching piece of the breaching equipment they have.
They gave the Ukraine as so amazing. So I mean, so so Europe has stepped up and I think that's a that's a really good because of our uncertainty about the US in UH in November.
So so Mark, big question, big picture question for you.
Uh.
I noticed I saw that one October that there's going to be a new uh uh Secretary General of NATO, Mark Ruda r u t t. He's a Dutch prime minister. Do you know anything about him?
I mean, you know, tremendous ally of the United States. You know, the Dutchess is you know, is essentially a five eyes partner, you know, and and the five eyes do you're you're gonna jump in and say that what are.
The five eyes?
You know?
In essence as a historic intelligence sharing relationship between the US, the UK, Canada and New Zealand and Australia, UH and and and the Dutch deserve to be in there as well because just the security partnerships that that the way that the United States has with the Dutch. So so you know, the idea of uh uh uh you know, we're gonna have some certainly continuity in NATO. But I think this is a this is you know, a you know, a very positive development Dutch or tremendous allies. This should
they should continue in these things. Jason, You know, I mean that the you know, the elections for Secretary General of NATO is all very kind of political and done behind the scenes, but never done without the complete okay push and support of the United States. So I think we're in good shape. Cool Mark.
One thing you when you when you talk about Europe kind of picking up the the burden or for supporting Ukraine or the responsibility to lead.
Yeah, I think that's an enormously.
It's really interesting what has emerged from kind of the U s is step back from global leadership over o the Ukraine, right one is that Europe has stepped forward a couple of things. You know, Poland. Poland is now how absolutely a leading nation within Ukraine. And this is not something we could have imagined two decades ago. Four percent of JET committed to four percent of GDP on it,
and you're tracking all the other things they're doing. I mean they are so, you know, and then and the Baltic nation says, you know, in Estonia has done that study on ammunition worst case scenario, the US can no longer provide specifically one five to five shells. When is it that europe can pick up that slack? And it's actually as early as twenty twenty five, right five, So they you know, if European manufacturing goes to surge.
Capacity in order to do that.
But the point is that these countries are thinking about that, not just thinking about it. They're on a path to doing that to kind of prove Ukraine from effects of the US selections.
And against which is embarrassing. That's embarrassing. Yeah, and and and and and for for you know, for the most part, this goes across the political spectrum in in most European countries that we that are that really matter. So it doesn't matter, you know, it's it's it's not gonna have as much of an effect one you mentioned Estonia. I mean, it's such a an interesting example because you know, this is the you know, it's an extraordinary uh uh, certainly
frontline state. But their intelligence services is world class and you know CIO officers who have experienced in that region. You know, every year the Estonians come out and they do it. They do it classified or releasable to liaison, but also an unclassified report on Russia. And it's one of the most kind of uh uh, you know, sought after you know, open source pieces. They are really good. And and if you take a look and do kind of a whole bunch of digging, there's there's been some
tremendous Estonian intelligence successes as well. So again countries that you you you wouldn't figure would have that kind of resolve but are more hawkish than than any on Russia. And that's for not also for you know, for good reason. But ultimately I think the conclusion is that, you know, Europe is in much better shape. And I agree with you two thousand. You know, it was always to get to twenty twenty five, which is by the way, what
the US supplemental package of sixty billion dollars was really designed. Yep, it's a bridging and and by the way, politically in the United States, that's smart because we're not going to say this is a never forever war and then we're not gonna say we're gonna we're gonna throw you know,
tens of billion dollars every year. What. In fact, I think the administration was smart and saying this, this supplement, this package is going to get us to twenty twenty five and then European contributions really start kicking in as well. And I think that's a that's a good strategy.
Yeah, so, you know, I mean, I prob we probably feel a little bit ambivalent about it, but at this you know, I mean, it's about the fact that people feel they cannot rely on the United Saints.
That's terrible.
But at the same time, this has been something that you know, since the end of the Coal War, that the US has been kind of mumbling and moaning about and and increasingly was was participation in NATA. I I never understood that, to be honest with you, because NATO. The only time NATO has had a reactive in an aauticle five was on Pahafa. The United States, the United
States has gained way more from NATO. You know, those of us who've served with you know, I'm a marine, so I wasn't closely involved in NATO from my service, but I can recognize that we the United States have benefited far more from well equally from NATO is NATO has from from you.
Know, you're right, it's not. First of all, it shouldn't be transactional. It's not. I mean, you know, there's but and you know, but but the fact of the matter is over a thousand NATO troops were killed in Afghanistan, and so, you know, and they stepped up and uh, and I think that's you know, again, when you start talking about, uh, you know, the benefits of NATO, you're one hundred percent right, because when Article five was invoked,
NATO partners came through. Uh. And again there's there's the you know, other side of the political aisle, or a side of the political aisle in the United States that doesn't seem to understand that the idea that somehow, you know, Europe is freeloading off of us is just utterly ridiculous.
I've never bought that argument every Well, but.
You know, all this may be irrelevant if if the Middle East the reps in war, as it has threatened to do every day in the last sixty years. But what are your thoughts now about Yeah, your thoughts about Iran? You know, the Hey, before we go to that, just one last kind of semi comical point to this thing about escalation.
I just saw as actually as.
We're here, that the administration has said that they're okay, this is an acceptable use of American weapon rates, including the driving striker on the vehicles in Russia.
I mean, so it's like, right, shut it up. Throne strikes are not good, but you can drive a striker striker. I feel bad for the actually the you know, the d O D press. Uh, there's a there was the press fokesman the other day. She was I mean her brief was horrendous. Rible dude. I just I just I feel bad for Yeah.
I mean, we use the word but we deliberately choose p aos who are geeky out to lunch because that way people people.
Feel sorry for them.
Well, okay, so maybe like so we know they're not going to wow journalists with their authority, and so we put these guys who are like hanging out there on the edge of being in the military just po ultimate p ao weenies so they can and you can see journalists actually feel sorry for them, you know, But it doesn't work on this because how do you explain the difference between in terms of aggression, between driving an armored vehicle across someone's border or simply flying a drone over
that same border. Most people would think the striker is a little more of viol nation of the national sovereignty. But no, we've we figured out that it is not. But someone's going to use that against us. Watch someone will use this against us.
They already have been. You've seen some of the like a little bit on Twitter, and I'm not I'm.
Not arguing with that.
I think you should just say, hey, fuck it, we're all in man, that's a trip feeding weapons. Were either supporting you or we're not just supporting you, never hate you. All boundaries are off man, Moscow fuck man, of course it's and what are you going to do about it?
You know what? Let me just let me just wake one point andy, I think that is missed in this too. So you know, we feel comfortable with these strange nuances and the verbal kind of word salad. I don't even understand what the fuck they're saying. You know, what's okay, what's not? The Russians think we're doing everything. Hey, they think they're at war with us. Yes, so we may do ourselves feel better, right, I mean, so bring it.
I mean absolutely, bring it on, you know, I mean we don't have I'm just saying one or two storm shadows in the center or I mean, you know, attackers in the center of a Russian city. Oh God, I'm gonna be criticized for this, Okay, used judiciously to send a strategic message. Right, We'll save countless slides on that battlefield. Could case safe? You know, I mean, we just don't, right, And yeah, exactly if we're reading what the Russians already had been saying about us since the outset.
Of the war.
They're at war with us, yep, that's they're telling themselves out of now all right, onto the Middle East? Yeah, can you solve the problems in less than fifteen minutes.
We'll give you thirty.
We'll give you thirty. I'm good.
I'm good.
I've had a couple of cups of coffee and plus like I you know, I actually have to get on with my I've had this permanent vacation status in the Greek Islands and in the UK and then in Maine.
So I got it. This is good.
I'm doing something serious now. No, So the Middle East stuff is super interesting to me. That was the majority of my career was obviously was based in the Middle East. I think I've told you all before, and I worked very closely with all with with the Israeli intelligence services, with the Jordanians, the Egyptians, the Palestinians. I've been everywhere. I've you know, traveled, and so so I have a
lot of experience in this region. I guess first and foremost, let's let's kind of tackle the biggest issue of the day. Will leave that the talks uh cepar talks for a second, but is you know, where is this Iranian retaliation? And so a couple of things I think occurred is that one is uh that this this and and first of all, the charge that somehow, you know, the Biden administration is not supportive of Israel is fucking ludicrous. It's the most pro Israel White House in the history of the United
States Israeli relationship. And so we we deployed this incredibly lugably. It led to ending ending his career right arguably, well right, yes, that was separate, right, but but but ultimately this this this kind of military package which is now in the region, whether it's you know, one carrier battle group, another one en route. You have a US nuclear submarine, you have F twenty two's, you have F thirty fives now of course on and the carriage ball to F F twenty
two deployments. I think they're in Jordan, but who knows. They're being kind of secret of them where they parked them. But ultimately and messages sent to the Iranians very strongly, both directly and indirectly, we have a channel with the Swiss, but basically telling the Iranians, you know, be very careful on what you do. And I think that's worked. And so the threat of military force has actually really worked here and deterred the Iranians. And again I think this
is the resolve of the United States. It certainly resolved the Israelis. They are in no mood to kind of absorb another mass casualty event. And one thing, you know, what's interesting about Israel is that whether there's a huge debate on what's you know, you know, Netta, who's hated, given there's a majority you want to cease fire deal, given when it comes to his balla, you know, sixty thousand Israelies can't go back to their homes in the North school starting in Israel soon.
Uh.
You know, politically, this is a this is not an issue on how to deal with Hisbella that is all that controversial. And so I think there's been a lot of strong Israeli resolved too, and so the Iranians seem to have blinked, and I think that's that, you know, that's a good thing. I for one, have never been afraid of a confrontation with Iran because we've allowed the Iranians to kill Americans for too long and the only way to deal with them is shows of strength and force.
So for now, and again this is obviously dynamic, but for you know, for now, I think the situation is stabilized. It's day to day, but clearly, you know, we're picking up on I would imagine an imagery the Iranian missile units and his Bola units standing down. A lot of this is going to be intelligence driven.
Uh.
Uh. The the other point of this, I think, as well as UH is on the ceasefire talks.
Uh.
You know, the US IS I think is doing the right thing in pushing for this. But you have to have two sides that want to come to an agreement. I think the Israelis Netanya, who is coming around a bit. He's been under enormous pressure, uh pressure from the Israeli National security apparatus, from Mosad and shin Bett and Israeli defense intelligence in the sense of, look the deal that the US put forward, which was an Israeli deal as well as actually pretty good, we can deal with this.
And if you want to go in the nuances has to deal with what's called the corridor Philadelphia Quador is the Egyptian Gaza border. Who patrols it. You know, the Israelis are there now, it would be better for them to stay. Hamas is refusing this and and basically you know, Israeli officials are saying, we could probably deal with it if we pulled out a little bit, and so you know,
there's all this this back and forth. But to me, the key question is, and one other point on that too is kind of the conventional wisdom is that you know, Netna, who is never going to make a deal because his government's going to fall. But it's not because the Knesset's not in session these that's the Israeli parliament. They actually go on a three month recess. If you think that's fucking crazy what the United States does here during the war.
And so he is actually in no danger of falling until they come back in October, so he could cut a deal. So I guess the key question for me is more on the Hama side. And you know, everybody is always hammering I think is an asshole, but everyone's hammering dB for being the party that refuses to make
a deal. But I think there is question now is what is yas And we're gonna do last point on this uh and and again I always try to look at this from I know, you know, you guys have spent time in Israel I look at it from the Israeli perspective and not condoning their behavior, not condemning it. But you know, the killing of Ismail Heni and Tehran first of all a fucking glorious operation from the from
from the intelligence perspective. You know, to put someone on the X like that in a denied area is pretty impressive. But premister nt Yahu, when he was given the opportunity to do this by Masad and by the Israeli defense forces, you know, there's a question of should he have done this that would affect the talks. My argument is he he had to do it. If that had leaked that the architect, the leader of the of the group that killed twelve hundred Israelies was on the X and he
didn't give the go ahead. He's in more trouble politically than he would be in any other situation. And for Fox's sake, like, are you kidding me? Like we would have done the same thing. So lots of I'm kind of all over the place on all these but I think I'm all over the place because it's tough. There's a dynamic situation, different variables and so hard. Next meeting, they go back to Doha and we'll see what happens
on the talks. It enabled the method, I mean, it enabled the I mean it was a well designed operation number of ways, but not least of which is it gave Iran a kind of a face saving way out that the US was able to say, Hey, look this was you know, this was a this was a foreigner.
Yes, but it was a foreigner who was involved in these things on your territory who was killed.
Really don't brag about it either, Yeah, no Iranians were killed. No, you know, let's you know, call it a call it a buying and let's move right. Look and and you know, I mean the Israeli said, we're going to track down all these motherfuckers and kill them all. They're going to do that. These are dead men walking, So no surprise.
I think it embarrassed the Iranians for for sure. One point I want to make on kind of the other the other assassination was it was like it was like twelve twelve hours of like you know, insane Israeli intelligence and special operations capabilities. And that's when the Israelis killed Flood Chukar in Beirut. Fwood schukar Is was in essence one of you know, it was one of the top leaders of his bola. You could people were calling him the chief of staff to Nosralla. For us, why does
that matter? And Andy for you in particular, why does that matter? And Jason and Jason, sorry, that's right, both of you guys, two marines. There's two Greeks, say Jason. I apologize for both of you, you know, and it should be personal. Twod Shukar was responsible for the deaths of two hundred and forty one US Marines in nineteen eighty three at the US Marine Corps barracks. I'm actually
there's the book. Jack Card just put out a book where he sent me an advanced copy of of a book he wrote on this, uh on on what was uh you know, one of the deadliest terrorist attacks and really almost the beginning of of kind of the the the US War on terrorism. And so you know, no one should shed a tear that this this uh, this
senior his BULA member was killed. And so uh, you know, as as I kind of, you know, I'm not always popular when I say this, when I kind of go on MSNBC and say this, uh, but I said, I basically said, look, every every you know, uh, former and current US Marine should you know, find their closest Israeli friend and buy him a beer. They did us a solid on this. And also if what Sugar had you know, five million dollars uh you know rewards for justice uh
program reward on his head too. So, uh, the one thing we seem to forget in the US media is that we should not be neutral. AMAS is a terrorist organization, as this Isballa. Now the US has to play this kind of mediating role in trying to tamp down, you know, the prospect for a regional war. But this this is not you know, the US just being a neutral party. It's not mediating between two sovereign states. It's not exactly. And Rachel Kaita Isbela killed more Americans than any other
terrorist group. And on October seventh, over thirty Americans were killed by Hamas. And by the way, an American citizen with with with two passports, a US and Israeli passport, we consider in the counter terrorism community to be an American citizen. I don't care what other passport you have. The US government does not care. The FBI, who you know is the lead in investigating these things, doesn't care they're Americans. And so somehow we we we tend to
forget it. In my background, you know, there's a there's a term we always use which is burden hand. If you got the if you got a terrorist on the actually take them out. And there's and then and the one thing that I always saw too in working with the Israelis is they're really smart on benefit cost calculus. So they're not they don't they don't go in there and take a shot at for what Schuckar or Ismail Haniya and say hey, this is going to be cost free.
They might say, hey, we might lose an embassy somewhere or or you know, or our assessment is these the Iranians will retaliate, but in a in a kind of a mild fashion. But uh, you know they do this with with eyes wide open, and right now it looks like they're they're kind of their calculus was correct.
I mean, yeah, when you know that you're gonna have a US carrier group and a nuclear submarine steaming in, of course you're you got that's going to be in your calculus, you know, like it's right, you're gonna have a backup.
But and that's and and so so ultimately, uh, that kind of that that that burden hand notion, which which we used in the counter terrorism community, uh in the United States, you know, whether it's drone strikes in Pakistan
or in Yemen or other places. Uh, if you if you've got a real bad guy, especially a high value target on the X. I can't think of a time forget the whole issue with whether we had been laden, you know, years ago, but I can't figure a time where we had someone of that seniority and we didn't take a shot. In fact, if you look at Leon Panetta's autobiography, he talks about when we when we killed I think it was a Q number two or three, and we killed his family as well, and we did
so knowingly. Uh, you know, there there are costs of this, but you got to take the shot. I'm glad he really did.
Mark before, you know, before we wind up and we've got an opportunity to talk. What what's on your mind that we haven't already talked about, even if it's just fresh memories of your holiday in Greece, No, I.
Think you know so. So it's that's a great question, because you know, it's sometimes it's good to go on vacation and kind of reflect on stuff and career and things like that. And you know, when I when I was thinking about or two things. One is what we talked about earlier is this is a good time to be with our Ukrainian partners. I missed that. I would love to be at a at a at a time like this working with the with the Ukrainians, especially when they're kind of you know, planning some of these uh
you know pretty uh, you know, daring operations. And the other is just on the Middle East. You know what what I think about a lot is and I'm just I think I'm disappointed. It's on my mind is I'm disappointed in national security media.
Uh.
And and I let me give credit to one one journalist, Shane Harris the Washington Post is an excellent reporter. He covers the intelligence beat, he has for for years. And you know, I remember talking him a couple of months ago and I was like, you got to go to Israel. Like, you know, so many of the national security media here, you know, their sources, they they they talk to via signal, so they'll you know, they'll signal their contacts at the NSC, but they don't go to the region where they don't
get you know, whether it's UK. But but so Shane went off to Israel and you know, and you know, I gave him some suggestions on who to talk to, and he had great contexts too, and he came back with kind of a different, more nuanced view of because the conflict in Israel is Yes, is an asshole, Yes we want him out. Uh, but uh, the Israelis are traumatized from October seventh. And if you don't really understand that,
you don't understand their response. Uh, even even in such things as you know what, there's been horrible civilian casualties in Gaza. There's no dispute on that. And what I'm gonna say now again, I don't want people to get upset Is, but the Israelis don't fucking care and you have to understand that.
Now.
I'm not saying that's right in Israel. There's a lack of press coverage of civilian casualties inside. That's not a good thing. But if you want to say it on TV, you cannot. You've been there, Andy, so it's just not covered. Now, is that wrong? Well, I mean, I think you know, but the Israelis are so traumatized from October seventh that
you have to understand their thinking now in everything. You know, my old contacts on WASSAD and the Israeli Foreign Ministry for years were absolutely supportive of a two state solution. They're not anymore. They said they're not ready. Now. The US policy is to push for this. I believe in my soul that's the right thing to do. I spend
a ton of time in the Palestinian areas. I think I've been to every city in the West Bank, I work with Palestinian intelligence and I think the Israeli practices in the West Bank are imhorrent, but that's not where Israel is right now. So it's just the idea of that. I think the national security media, uh, you know, it doesn't doesn't do enough kind of field reporting. You have
to go to these areas. And and it goes back to my time at c i A. You know, one of the one of the things that we did, uh is that when when when senior officers will come back from the field, often they'd go down see the president and so we you know, we take you know, chief of stations from all across uh, you know, the land, and and because the president wants to hear from the guy or the girl on the ground, not from the analysts, not from the policymakers, uh, but from from from someone
who has actually you know, been on the ground in a certain area. And that to me is invaluable. And I think that I wish the national security media would do the same. So that was I've been pondering that recently when uh, you know, when I when I kind of I mean, I you know, I of course obsessively follow you know, everything, whether I read the journal, Wall Street Journal, New York Times, watching post. I will painfully
watch Fox News sometimes. Sorry, that's my uh, I have to do that as well as CNN and MSNBC and and so so. Uh. But nobody really does the hard work and you get out there and and and go to regions and talk to people, and that's how you really understand things. That's a really good point, I think.
And you see that in Israel, but you saw it in Ukraine to an extent too. You know, the journalists who went beyond ef there were very few because they thought that they could get the story via WhatsApp or signal local. I think, you know, at the same time, there is a handful there are a handful Wall Street journals where you know has a has a coterie of them, and New York Times be fair, and of journalists who really you know, guys like Eric Schmidt with the New
York Times, who really do root out the story. And but that's I think that's a that's a really fair point in your comments for my part of absolutely accurate and so sorry, go ahead, mam.
And and I think the you know, uh kind of the last piece is uh is I would love I don't even know if there's going to be a debate UH, but if in the in the nex in the present, you know, I guess there's one schedule for early September.
And I know Americans don't vote on foreign policy, but I would love to see foreign policy covered in the in the debate between Harris and UH and Trump if it happens, because I think it, you know, again, that's my world, and I think that there could be some profound differences that should be kind of discussed.
I would be really interested in kind of a to see a comparative poll of how many, you know, maybe compared to two decades and then full decades ago, how many Americans really are interested in foreign policy, because when we do get to foreign policy and debates, it's the level of debate drops to kind of middle grade, middle school level. You know, it's then bad us good, there's you know, it's a very and for the most pop candidates don't have a good understanding of debates.
It makes me laugh when we see candidates who not laugh. That's not fair.
I'm glad to see candidates who are veterans, but it does make me laugh when there's an assumption that because someone's a veteran, they must know about foreign policy, right because they've been on the pointy end of it.
But we let me add one quick thing for the listeners, and I think this is this is an inspirational thing. You know, when you serve overseas the United States government, you know, oftentimes you're working at a US embassy. And I always believed, you know, I would. You know, I remember walking down the street when I was serving in Damascus, and you know, at a time where the US well we don't have embassy there anymore, but the US Syrian relationship was in the toilet and I would walk down
at night, I'd see the American flag there. It was flying, you know, silhouetted. You know, it's dark in night, but the lights on the flag, and it meant something to me, but it also meant something to ordinary Syrians. And here's my point. Every US embassy there is a line outside
the consular section that sometimes runs around the corner. And that's because America is still seen as a bright, shining city on the hill, you know, and with in terms of economic liberalism political and this is not liberal vers conservative. This is economic freedoms, political freedoms. You know what we stand for. That's really important for this to continue, that
America has to be seen in that light. And so you know, to me that was one of the inspiring things about serving overseas, uh is is that America stood for something that is what we have done in Ukraine. Uh But and I guess my worry is I wonder if that will continue with kind of our political divisions. That's something that that concerns me.
Yeah.
Great, great points to ponder.
Mark.
We need to have you on again before this long long break anytime.
Yeah, you're one of our you one of our close friends. I don't know how you feel about that that.
I'm come on, I love it. I need some I need some bling though. Are you guys doing any like T shirts or bugs or anything like that. You got to send me some stuff.
I'll get it done. I'll get it done three to six months.
And I've lost a little weight now. I just I dropped twenty pounds, thank god.
Nice bad So we are having problems silk screening these image on the on the back of off switch.
I will walk around with these image on a T shirt anytime.
Don't say that because I will send it to you. I will send you a T shirt mark where can they find you?
So?
Fortunately or unfortunately. On Twitter at m Polymer, I tweet mostly as dnos about the Red Sox, but a lot of stuff about politics, a lot of stuff mostly about foreign policy. You know. One of the things that I that I did was and it's hurt me. But I know my my kind of as a as a as an old national security centrist, I you know, my political views are pretty well known, and so people get pissed
at me sometimes about that. But I'm on Twitter. I'm all on LinkedIn, which I think has gone kind of crazy. That's a little, there's there's a little there's a lot of weird shit on LinkedIn now, people doing stuff and uh, what do you mean that's weird shit on LinkedIn. I haven't noticed that it's gotten too political. I mean, I
you know, I it's to me. People are putting on LinkedIn what they used to put on on Twitter, and I don't like that LinkedIn as it was a freaking business thing in the past, or at least you know, a place for adults to discuss things. Right. Uh, let's see, I'm on MSNBC all the time, I'm on a couple of times a week. So if you they have me on at at five am these days on uh and so that's early, but it's good. I get up early.
I'm the early riser. I come back, I get the rest of my day and uh and so yeah, so uh so it's I've been I've been busy enough and uh got to make it up to New York City again sometimes soon. I just was up there. This is We talked about this before the show. I took my son to see slipknot a couple of days ago. I'm still a fifty five years old. I'm still a crazy
heavy metal fan. So D was trying to get me to come into studio, but I said, now, I think we're gonna be out too late and banging our heads against the wall.
Also, you have your podcast, too above average intelligence.
A podcast above average intelligence.
That's what you're going to bring over soon to the team House network.
Don't say that and uh uh and that's been that's been fun. It's you know, it's a kind of a different format. It's a quick thirty forty minutes where I just you know, can can chat about stuff. But I make fun of myself on that as well, because usually we kind of devolve into my drinking habits at the Vienna n Or or my love of heavy metal in the Red Sox and so a little bit of national security you're in there.
But it's a you have some great guests on it too, it's a great podcast.
Well I'm not, and I'm trying to feed them to you guys as well.
So I should have Andy Milburn or Jason Lyons on it. I would love or Jack Murphy or Sean Taylor. See how this works, guys, You see how this works.
It's fun doing that.
People help people.
Yeah, no, these and and you know it's well that's you know, it's fun just having a chat with kind of old friends.
So I like that.
And the other thing too, is I mean, do you're gut on the metrics? I have no fucking idea. How many people listen to these things?
They don't tell.
I just I sort of pay attention. I don't and I don't know. I mean. The one thing and for everyone here on this show understands this, when you get into this kind of space, you got to have thick skin. You know, there are and it's been hard because you kind of put your whole life out there. Yeah, and if you want to kind of jump into the arena, there's going to be you know, flip a coin, fifty percent of the people are going to think you're an asshole.
And you know, one of the things a good buddy of mine is uh is Dan Hoffman, you know, a former CIA station chief in Moscow. He's the Fox News Intel correspondent National Scurity Howls, And he always tells me he is like, He's like, man, I wish I could do what you do because you just say whatever the fuck's on your mind. And but there's a price to pay for that, and so some people don't like it. But it's a if you jump in the arena, this is what you get.
Which is why I am not on Twitter because I will fight. Which is why I'm not on Twitter because I will fight everyone.
Oh.
I was called I was called you guys will love this. Someone said you're in this lomist communist. She called me that the other day and I was like, I said, that's awesome. That's why I actually wrote back. I was like, that is a good one. I don't know what that means, but I'm going to use that. You know, I've got used to. I mean, I don't mind the the insults like that. What still bugs me and I've got to stop it.
Our accusations are lying, you know, So I don't I don't mind people call me an asshole or anything. But I'll give you you know, just recently, someone questioned on D on that podcast when I said, hey, we had hotels hit by missiles four times, and some guys like that's impossible. You know, who the fuck else remembers that? And actually it was more than that. You know, it was four times we know of for sure.
While we were in those hotels.
But for some reason that I shouldn't tell people this because now Evan's gonna accuse me of lying for some reason.
That really pissed me off. It pissed me off for a whole I don't know hour and then. But you're right, Yeah, you've got to evolve beyond that.
I mean, think about think about all the shit that's flying around now about you know, the titans of social media, you know, the seals. I mean, we we can only aspire. We are We're just grasshoppers at their feet when it comes to media propagation.
Right.
So, you know a guy like Jock and this is not a hit on Jocko. I mean, he's done very well, good on him, But even a guy like him with his following also has a you know, has a determined counter following with people from apart.
Right.
Well, I mean we've had on the Team House, we had a former seal that was in that world, never worked with Jocko, that has had some pretty damning accusations towards him.
Oh yeah, yeah, no, this and this is not you know, just general.
I'm just saying, yeah, so, you know, but but the attacks came from the guy's own community, you know, and that is particularly concerning. I don't mind attacks coming from the GP general public, you know, I mean, that's that's part of the game. And and of course I'm always going to be attacked by a few Marines, and I discount them.
By saying they're not real marines.
But you know, when you're getting at tanked by a substantive part of your community, then that is probably a concern. Right Yeah, that's happening even among seals who who you know, who like doing who you know, they tear each them like a group of piranha, you know, whenever one of them goes to bathe they won't converge on him.
But all right, so here's my theory on this as as we're going to kind of start rambling down the road, but this is, this is this is a good one. I like that. I was just talking about this the other day with with with some folks, and I really believe this, honestly. Is that you know, in this in this strange world that we inhabited and we and I we don't anymore. And I think it's healthy. So what's
the personality trait? And I know this CIA recruits a certain personality trait and that's narcissistic sociopaths and so and so. On the one hand, it can be incredibly effective if you're running a surveillance detection route alone carrying two hundred thousand dollars in the backstreets of you know, Baghdad or Condohart or or Damascus, and you have to you have to determine are you surveillance free? You have an asset meeting all these things where you're this incredible, you have
this incredible capacity to operate on your own. That makes you a really kind of shitty teammate later on, Uh, that affects that has nothing to do with it on how you can manage, and it promotes kind of a zero sum uh mentality. And so that was always my kind of my issue at CIA. And so you know, ultimately my success now in the media and I don't call it success by the way, I'm just out there talking. Trust me, I don't make any fucking money. Uh, it's very everybody pays very leaky. We pay d we pay
D there on this. That's right and so so. But but if you know, but you're you know, uh, the there is there is no way that people get up in the morning a lot of our former colleagues and are happy for your success. I'm sorry, that's just not the And but it's because this weird I think, personality trait and on on, you know, how we recruit folks into the organization, And to me, that is just I've never kind of figured out how to crack that nut.
I think ultimately one of the things that that we might want to do, and I'm not going to speak for the Special Operations world, is maybe we're actually recruiting the wrong people. Maybe those you know, maybe you don't need that kind of sociopathic narcissist because Ultimately, it leads to that notion of like, hey, if you have success, that means I'm failing. It's a zero. So I don't know if you found that in your old world.
I certainly well one hundred percent, you know, I mean, the story of the Mozart group became that, you know, it was you know, as soon as as soon as we were dealing with our own not you know, bad actor within the organization. Of course, a lot of people want to jump on the bandwagon or simply cut instead. You know, the people would be fighting on that same bad wagon. And I agree with you one hundred percent.
A lot of those guys were former military and it's made me think a hard over the over the last few years about how we select people within the military. So I'm very you know, I know this is a whole different program, but I can only speak about my community, and I think, no, we don't do a great job ultimately, because we still get too many officers who are risk averse, who are bureaucrats and are driven by very selfish motives.
You know, that comes down to careerism, and we see it even in the rink or even though we love pretending that we are exempt from that right, as you know. And I think egotism narcissism are part of that. But I think, to me, certainly within the military, the biggest part, and I can't put my finger on it, is this kind of pureaucratic mentality that people use time and time
again to persuade them into doing nothing. That's on one side, and then on the other side you've got the other extreme within the soft community of people who think that the rules don't apply to then they you know, hey, we are super talented, we pay a heavy price to us. The rules don't quite apply the same way. In the words of the Seal Master Chief, the boys just need
to blow seal steams. So, you know, this mistake and feeling that which has destroyed us in the sock, and what's hurt us in the soft community, you know, because of all the bad publicity in their turns around it.
So I do think about that line. I think you're onto something, and I'm not sure what the answer is, except that we do need to instead of patting ourselves on the back, we need to really look at the people that we have in these positions, especially as warfare of ops, right, and you need a far more cerebral guy. You need a guy who is just as tough, but he needs to be cerebral. And in the Marine Corps, wherefore.
We have not done that.
We have too many idiots and among our officers. I know there are those on this show who will say all our officers are idiots. I would say no, for the most part, most of our officers are great. But we still have too many guys who do not belong in uniform. Okay, I'm sorry, I didn't need to, but I'm great. Yeah, absolutely, you know it matters to us because we spent all our adult lives in an institution, right the agency, even rank hole.
It's my family and it's your identity. I mean, it's just yeah, twenty six years my life was I and.
I take it personally when I when when I see fun them marine Worlds is doing bad things. So I don't mean just being incompetent, but I mean, you know, just anyway enough just not being marine.
What kind of personality would fit besides like that type a narcissist socio.
Let me let me flip. Let me just tell you a story. This is a great story, so so I have to sanitize this.
So uh uh.
A long long time ago. I handled one of our top penetrations of a Middle Eastern country. He was an intell intelligence officer. He was in line to be uh uh. You know they're within their their leadership ranks. Uh And one of the things and and I didn't. I was not the recruiting officer. I was the handling officer. And so one of the things you do when you take over a case. You know, Jason knows this is is you know you're gonna you're gonna sit down with the ass the asset and you kind of have to go
over the history of the case. But I wanted to get into his head, like, you know, why did he why did he end up? And he and he volunteered and and the mechanics of of when he approached us, and he said, he goes, well, look, he said, I you know, I was. I was. I was watching at every diplomatic reception how Cio offered, how US diplomats were reacting. Goes, I could pick all of you guys out and gals out. And I was guilty this too. He goes. You know, you were the glad handler. You wanted to be the
life of the party. You know, we're gonna we're gonna have uh, Jason's gonna laugh. We're gonna you're gonna be the one running like the you know, the scotch tasting at the military attest circuit or you know, organizing the soccer games or you know, you know, but you are the life of the party. Kind of this domineering America. And he said, and then I looked in the corner of the room and I saw some guy. You know, he showed up to every reception, but he didn't say
a word, and he and so he goes. I said to myself that not only is a CIA officer not when, by the way, that everyone else in there is as well. But they're just kind of these type a American ants, he said. But that guy's going to keep me alive. I want an introvert. I want someone who is is is you can't even tell. Nobody even knows him, knows his name. And so that's the person he ended up walking up to one day and said, I'm from so and so country, you know, I'd like to talk to
you privately. And I remember in the in the station bullpen, Everyone's like, well, that motherfucker didn't do anything that got you. It was a volunteer, and I was like, thinking about it later, I was like, actually, no, he did everything right. But he was an introvert, so you don't have to
be this kind of type a asshole. And so you know, so I you know, I've thought about that over the years, and so I would I would think that, you know, kind of the used car salesman, maybe that's not the uh the best, uh the best model we have for an intelligence officer.
Yeah.
The analogy that a mentor told me was the sticker on the bumper sticker on the car. Said, if there's an accident, a crime, whatever it is, you know, police are going to show up, they're going to ask questions, and someone's going to say, you know, oh, the thing I remember about that car that sped away, they had a bumper sticker on the back of their car. And he told me, if you go out in the parking lot, you look at my car. I have no bumper stickers
because I want to be the gray man. I want to be the guy who people are like, I think it was a blue car, but you know there were no distinguishing marks. So I've always carried that with me, you know, to always be I don't want to be
the bumper sticker on the car. It's just like with people who I've had this conversation with people that I are big two A guys, which I'm I'm fine, I'm proponent of the Second Amendment, but they're always screaming a lot of them are screaming about their guns being taken. And just like the mentor, my mentor was telling me, you know, if you are so adamant that they're coming for your guns, why do you have all these gun stickers all over your cars. You're the first person that
they're going to look for. So it kind of goes to what that asset was saying.
You know, I've always tried to picture what that's going to look like when they come for our guns and blacks.
Yeah, exactly, the guy, Yeah, I shouldn't actually me.
It's going to be your local shriff that you know it is going to show up at your door.
That's what it's going to be. But yeah, so it's pretty uh, pretty cool analogy. But yeah, you just and that's how I tried to my short career at the agency.
I tried to be that.
Cliche gray man. Well, in my case would be dark gray, but that gray man, you know, as much as possible.
That's I think that's that's that's great advice that you that you got. And and I guess the answer probably is that, you know, why do we have to have this kind of personality test? You know, why why are we why are we recruiting narcissists sociopaths as our intelligence officers? Maybe but in you know, maybe maybe we should actually look at because also I would argue that and the agency is horrible leadership. We don't teach leadership, you know, uh,
you know, if you guys both know this. If you're in the military, have a twenty year career, probably what spent one or two one year assignments at some kind of leadership school. The agency we have three one week classes in your twenty years and so but and and all the attributes that make you a great case officer again make you a terrible leader because you have to make that switch from from line officer to manager where it's not about you anymore, it's about all the people
under you. And people have a terrible time doing that. So when was that few when you took over at the coast, I mean.
No, no, No.
Two thousand and three was my first management job. I was Chief of Operations in Kuwait and I sucked. I was fucking terrible. I'd come off a tour in a rock where I received the Distinguished Intelligence Medal, the agency's second highest war so I thought I was the baddest person on the planet, and all of a sudden, I'm managing a whole bunch of folks thinking I'm still the baddest person in the world, not realizing it's all about them,
not about me. And I look back at my decisions and how I acted, and it was abominable, and I got better.
Yeah, yeah, But the point is you're looking back and saying that, right, if they really were abominable, you were a bad leader, you wouldn't be saying that.
You wouldn't be because those guys just don't self for a flank. Look at a cable you wrote twenty years ago. Uh, if one can, and you know how much it's it's the use of the first person evaporates very you know, and because again it's the and the at the end of the you know, my last my last couple of jobs, I mean my last job when I was the off chief over Europe in eur Asia. You know, technically I had probably a thousand, two thousand people working for me.
But what did I want? I wanted everybody there smarter than me. I never would have said that, you know, in two thousand and three in my first management job, but I wanted to be the dumbest person in the room I could. I'll be I'll be your leader. I have the experience to make decisions. I want to surround myself with greatness. That is so against the grain of a CIA case officer. It's completely not what you want at all, because you are kind of indoctrinated to be this badass and to work hard.
Right.
We had this thing. If they're not working hard, oh that's the whole right, right, So I could talk for hours on this issue. We're not doing activity I made. I I literally went out I remember one time to a stay. I got in trouble for this, uh and I was wrong. I went out to a station as a manager. The station wasn't working hard enough, and I basically said, you know, you know, everyone can kind of make their reservations to go home. I want you guys out seven nights a week and at the end of
your tour. I want you crawling up the stairs of the of the plane. I thought I was given a Raw Ross speech and it was pretty stupid, because especially in places where people are coming off of war zone tours or exhausted, you do have to have this work life balance. I mean the notion for even now I have disagreements with former colleagues at c I as a case offic you got to work at night, That's fine,
got it. But you know what you can do. You can go home for dinner, see your family, you know, and and and you have to be able to take care. We need time in the gym. You know, everyone should be working out. I mean, so there's you know, it's it's I learned a good buddy of mine. It was a former UH command sergeant major of UH. It'll get mad at me, but of Delta, Rob Lively. I don't know if you guys know Raw. He's a he's a
great guy. UH and him and I have gone down to the Philly Police Department to teach them leadership stuff to and especially some of the Philly SWAT units and UH and and Rob has a thing he calls it the Combat Leadership chassis. And I was like that's the first and I stole it immediately, just like you guys can poach my guests and I'll have you guys on my show. Like you hear something good? But he said, he goes. You know, you get up in the morning,
you know, is everything working? Hydrate? This is this is basic hydration, nutrition, exercise, you know, these are your controllables. No one taught me that at CIA. It was more of like, hey, how much did we fucking drink last night? And I gotta go I go out again tonight. But it's it's it's sleep hygiene. And so you know, when you no one ever taught me that. I think that's really important. And so uh, you know, I just I've I've kind of evolved. And as well, last point is whatever it is?
What is it?
Gen z? The new generation now they are not going to tolerate bullshit from US as leaders. And so you know what happens at CIA if someone uh you know has a US who was going to work them to death and doesn't allow them to take care of themselves, they're going to quit. And and right when I left CI, I did a study of of why people at the five year mark were quitting and it was it was like ninety percent because they had shitty first line managers. So that's an indictment.
Yeah, But I mean that's feedbacks they get right, that it's serious. That's the thing that bothers me sometimes about surveys. They used to inflict discipline or imposed discipline on individual commanders, but they're not necessarily used to fix systemic problems, which you're talking about. You know.
I once had three sixty feedback. They said Mark thinks he's a lot smarter than he really is. And I was horrified. When I thought about that a lot. I was like, yeah, maybe that's true, and I you know, you know, I kind of took that to heart. It was that's I mean, that's that's the that's the uh, that's the pious lie that we tell usselves. Especially I think the biggest thing is humility, Like gotta be humble as a as a leader, especially with kind of the stuff we were doing.
So I mean.
That that that assignment and kuwait, when at what point in your career did you realize, oh shit, I wasn't doing like I don't think I was doing the right thing, or I wasn't a great leader there or whatever, like the was it early on or was it like with benefit of hindsight and experience.
Like but probably a combination of things, but certainly looking back mostly how I okay, so this is this is a really important point. I was having a very hard time making the transition from one of the boys and gals in the back to leader. And so, you know, so what does that mean? It means that at the marine house at midnight, go fucking home. If you're a manager, sorry, nothing happens at a marine house after midnight. That's good. If you're supervising your officers, they can they can do
whatever the hell they want. But you know, it's things like that you can't. And so I'm not their friend anymore, just not and so and and in in a place like that, I was still too close to the officers who then you end up having to possibly discipline And so I think about you know, and and that that's a that's a struggle that that case officers have, or
any managers probably have. And from having this intense you know, uh environment where you're right next to someone to all of a sudden to them to them being their boss. Because guess what you want to do? You want to be liked. Yeah, you want to be a leader. That's not that's really not part of the whole fucking leadership equation. Can't give a shit about that. And uh and so that I really that's the thing I really struggled on.
And eventually, you know, you get better at it, and you get better because you screw things up.
You get better because you're paying attention and you're willing to and you're honest with yourself. Yeah right, That's why we all know four stars and three star generals who've had all the experience in the world but are still shitty leaders because they haven't inflected on that experience.
You know, it's all.
They've used it all to bolster their image of themselves, which is positive.
The one thing when I've gone and you know, I wrote a book on leadership, when I talked about it and I try and of course, and so you know, I remember I got it. It was actually pretty funny. I got it from a very senior former agency officer.
I really like.
He sent me a text one time he said, hey, can you teach me some leadership with a little smiley face. But the point I'm making is that not that I was a great leader at all. It's just I'm just trying. These are just lessons on leadership that I found mostly from me screwing up and I made a ton of mistakes.
Uh.
And so it's a it's I think that that is where it's important to to, you know, to have that kind of mentality of of you know, of of understanding, you know, being humble and uh and you know it's a it's a it's a really tough business. I mean that you know, this is not you know, we're not we're not worrying about you know, whether your sales of Coca cola went up and down. There's a lot of life and dust stuff and so. But but being I think the biggest, the two biggest best traits for intelligence
officer to be humble and then to be curious. It's don't like that Ted That's a Ted Lasso thing. Be curious. Yeah, I like Ted Lass.
All right, boys, this is great?
Uh.
Andy Milburn, Colonel Andy Milliburn. His book is available. The link is in the description. You could find them on LinkedIn, get check out a substack. Everything will be in the description. All of marxlinks will also be a description.
Can I say something real quick? Absolutely very quick about substack. Hey guys, please read well, don't check out and if you want to read it. But I wrote a I wrote an article on just about to release actually about the worst year of my life, which was the lawsuit. De's familiar with the STORYSMDEO. I'm not going to go into it now, but I fought two lawsuits in the last two years, one and both on all accounts, both dismissed.
But it was expensive and it was incredibly painful. And if I hadn't had the backing of a major media organization, I would have I would have been finished. I would have been done. And it's taught me how fragile the First Amendment is. But most of all, it's really talked about humility. It's brought me face the face with a type of fear that I never never knew during active duty, never knew facing death, fear of just losing everything, you know, my family, everything.
That I built up.
That's what I was facing last year, So you know the To me, the article is more interesting in that sense and scary and frightening than any of the stories I've told about combat. For what it's worth, and I'd love to get any feedback, positive feedback. Of course, I don't wanstn't.
I will read that that's amazing. Wow. But I'm a better I'm a changed man and after that year and I'm you know, I like to think for the better.
So you're welcome.
It's not about me.
No, no, no, it's great. No.
I touched on it, that opportunity to do that.
Yeah, we touched on it slightly on your last Team House episode, which is good, Marky.
I'm an alleged rapist who sadly was a marine reservist, brought a lawsuit against me for going off from Ukraine going after him. By that, I mean I was asked to put out a description of him. He claimed that I was trying to get the Mozart group to assassinate him, which is at early day end of the war the Russians. Anyway, the lawsuit was a twenty million dollar lawsuit and it was a frightening year. Sure, very interesting things happen in that year, to include his lawyer having a total stroke and.
First day in court.
You know, there's weird acts of I won't say acts of God, but things I'm not going to go there, but weird things happening Anyway, I'm alive, I'm emerged, and i'm you know, and I won. But I'm a vastly poorer, vastly wiser person than I was.
Hopefully adversity like that makes it stronger. I mean that's yeah, I'm not sure I do it all again. No agreed.
Also, the Red Sox stink by the way they.
When last night twelve to ten. It's painful to see.
You have a schedule in the back, like get the white board.
Out, going to Baltimore on Monday. So Sunday, I'm going to see the Red Sox on I think I might be up there over there's a there's a there's a counter terrorism conference September twelfth and thirteenth, and I think the Red Sox are playing the Yankees.
So I'm through. Bro, Let's grab dinner.
Yeah, gotta do it, gotta go. We went to Greek restaurant last time. No went to a Lebanese place. We got to go to your Greek.
No, So we went to a Greek restaurant last time, but it wasn't my fam my families, but we can go to my families and hopefully it'll be fucking open.
Now, to be open. Yeah, we can go. It's a lead Greek kitchen. If you're in Brooklyn, go check it out.
Yeah yeah, me and Andy went, yeah, really really good.
All right, boys, Patreon dot com slash the teamhouse. That's how you support the show. Don't forget to do that, and don't forget to like it. Subscribe and uh yeah thanks guys.
Mike having you on. Thank you so much anytime. You all were great. Thanks so much,