¶ Start
Special Operations, cobert Os Spionage. The Team House with your hosts Jack.
Murphy and David Bark.
Welcome to episode three hundred and seventy three of The Team House. I'm Jack Murphy here with tonight's guests, former Canadian sniper Barry Nisbitt and former ranger and co author of the book Mir Bamanyar. They are the author of Send It Canadian Snipers at War in Afghanistan. Thank you both of you, gentlemen, for joining us tonight.
You're welcome. Thanks for having us Jack.
So maybe we just like kick it off. I mean this is a little unorthodox, but talk a little bit about how this project came together. How did Mir and Barry meet each other?
All right, I'll take this one Barry, because you know we can't trust you.
You're old.
Look this sort of started in twenty ten. I'd written a seal book with Chris Osmond. I wanted to do something on snipers and Chris said, there's this great guy in Afghanistan he met called Gordon Cullen, who is instrumental and also writing this book. And through Gordon I met Barry. And that's a long time ago. I think we met ten years ago or something like that, and I went and interviewed Berry, and you know, on and off, it's taken me a long time to finally get to the book.
And I was going to write this whole thing about Canadian snipers because I now live in Canada and I thought there were some stories that needed to be told that we haven't heard yet. And to that end, I got permission from the Green Machine of Canada's forces that I could participate in two weeks at a sniper call it boot camp whatever, training course with the RCR, which
the Royal Canadian Regiment. So I spent two weeks with those guys and I interviewed some of them, and I was going to write the book, but I recognized almost immediately that I'm just an idiot. There's no way I could write a book about something like sniping. It was really just so complex, at least to me it was. So I asked Gordon if he'd be interested in helping me on that, and he also introduced me to Berry at the time. So I met with Berry a bunch of times, went to his house and looked at a
lot of things. We talked a lot. He showed me a lot of the video footage, and eventually I just made the decision. I don't even remember how long ago that was, but a few years back, I said, you know, do you guys want to just write this book and I'll write one or two chapters, but it's really your story.
¶ The Journey to Writing 'Send It!'
You guys should write it.
And do justice to what took you, you know, to how to actually get to the point where you became combat efficient and very good at your job at you know, snipers school and all the other experiences they had.
For me.
They sa and we reached out to a number of others uh snipers. Many of them were excited at the beginning, but not participating. Barry and another guy, a couple other guys chap So that's how I met Barry through this process and we've become good friends.
You know, something I wanted to mention too from the onset is that, and I'm dating myself a little bit here, but when I went through Snipers School many years ago, all the instructors all told us how great the Canadian snipers are, like I'm not blowing smoke, like and I heard that throughout my career in the army. People speak
very highly about the Canadian snipers. And Barry, I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about you know, why do you think the Canadian snipers are so well regarded and what is it about the Canadian military that has led them to create this program that seems to work very well for.
Them, Jack, I think it's it's a combination of a lot of things. We're a small military, so we do a lot of cross training and we have a really good base of infantry skills before we even even think about getting onto a sniper course. You know, I was you know, nine eight years in the military before I even got an opportunity to go on the course. And you know, at that point, you know, I was a
machine guarner, morteman, reconnaissance patrolman. So we just have a really solid base of basic gift before we can even be looked at to go onto a basic sniper course.
Let's dig a little bit deeper, Barrier, tell us a little bit about your origin story, about how you joined the military and why how did all of that come about for you, Well.
How it came about for me. Yeah, I was I was twenty, didn't really have a direction and my mom said to me, why don't you join the military, and I thought, why don't I join the military. So I went to recruiting office. I watched some videos. I saw the guys running around with guns, jumping out of airplanes, and I said, well, that that's that's what I want to do. And you know, I signed up for the infantry and I was told it would be you know,
months until I heard anything. Three weeks later, I got a phone call from a recruiting sergeant that that called me very early in the morning and said, I hope you like getting up early. You're you're in basic training in three weeks and off off I went.
And was it you Barry or was it your uh,
¶ Understanding Canadian Sniper Training
your buddy Gordon. Well, because I remember it's in the book somewhere one of you is color blind. Yeah, oh that's Gordon.
OK.
Yeah, so Gord kind of god, kind of tucked under the radar. Is some requirements, but we're all very glad, very glad he did just because you know, exceptional soldier, exceptional sniper and instruct.
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workwhere built like it matters. Get fifteen percent off your first order at true work dot com with the code house that's t r U E W E r K dot com and the promotion code to get fifteen percent off is house h O U s E. Thanks guys, Erry, If you could just tell us then about uh, you know, you joined the military. Tell us about sort of your early military career. You had a series of infantry positions.
It sounds like, yeah, absolutely, I I was always I've always been in the first Battalion, Royal Canadian Regiment in Patawawa, Ontario. I'll say my first deployment was to h was the was it would have been to Kosovo, in nineteen ninety nine, I would have been in a in a section or
¶ Early Military Experiences and Deployments
I guess a squad, and I was just a I was to riflemen. So that was sort of my first first apployment peacekeeping mission into Kosovo, and then you know, just kind of up through the ranks, you know, you get a little bit of leadership training. Next deployment was into Bosnia, where I was a what we would call Section two. I see, I guess what would that be like in a squad.
Assistant team leader maybe, yeah.
Assistant team leader leader, assistant squad leader maybe yeah.
Again, you know, just like another peacekeeping tour. And then a few years later, two thousand and five, I was in Kabul, Afghanistan. We were what we were doing there was we were doing defense security of a camp and QRF. So again I was doing you know, Section two. I see on that, and you know, then that kind of brought me you know that I guess say, you know,
you cut your teeth a bit on those tours. You get a taste, you get exposed to other countries and other units, and you know, you kind of start to see that there's a there's a lot more in the military to do. And and that's when I sort of you know, well, at that point my first turn Afghanista, I'd already been to ranger school. I went to ranger school in two thousand and three and just progressed, you know, sniper course, oh five, lucky to be in the sniper platoon.
Deployed to Afghanistan in O six and that was pretty interesting, pretty interesting tour, kind of first taste of combat, progressed through uh into sniper detachment commander course, Advanced sniper course, and then final tour was as a sniper detachment commander in twenty ten back in Afghanistan.
So talk to us a little bit about how the kind of the course works, the training. It sounds like there's a you mentioned a basic course and an advanced course, and how does the how does Canadian sniper training structured?
So first to even get onto this, onto the basic sniper course, I guess it's basically structured in three phases. You have your basic, you have your sniper detachment commander, and then your your Advanced sniper which would give you a position to be a unit master sniper. And just to get on the basic course. When I did it, Prerexit,
¶ The Structure of Canadian Sniper Courses
was you need to have basic comms, communication and reconnaissance patrolmen. So, like we'd chatted before, like your infantry skills are already are already pretty up there. We had a pre course of twenty four candidates online that whittled down to eighteen after a week of you know where they just use to use the ranger school term where they smoked us pretty good. And and then to the course where we graduated three of the eighteen, so a pretty high attrition rate. Back then with the course.
And I mean aside from that, you're learning obviously marksmanships, stocks, target identification, target distance estimation and all all these kind of foundational sniper skills.
Yeah. Absolutely, you know, the course is broken down into different you know, performance checks, judging, distance observation, obviously marksmanship, stalking and and back back then you know five stalking. The course was very heavily weighted on stalking. That was that was a real that was a real man eater. That's where we lost so many candidates because it was
just it was just hard. And I think that's that is something that really sets the Canadian sniper of course, apart from from some other ones, is is just the the level of stalking the skill that you know, we're you're expected to be able to achieve the level you're expected to be able to achieve, you know, on the Basic Sniper course.
And it's and that's sorry to interrupt Barry. There's a great chapter Barry actually wrote on stalking which is highly detailed, but it really talks not just about the physical grueling aspect of it, but also about the emotional mental strength that is required for you to actually complete the stock Sorry, I had to throw that in there.
It was a great chapter. Yeah, No, absolutely, and that is a big that is a big part in the book because it's any sniper, they they're always going to remember the stocking phase of their course because it's it's just like I think I describe it in the book as it's like it's it's a man eater and it's a dream it's a dream crusher, because that's that's just where that's where we lose so many guys because it's so difficult. It's such a difficult aspect of the course.
And let's talk hardware for a second here. Uh, the Canadians are known to love their three three eighths. Is that what you learned to fire in the course or was there a different platform that you guys were taught on initially?
So my core we were using a C three A one with with a Nerdle ten power fixed ten power bullet drop compensator three to eight. It was an old gun.
¶ The Role of Sniper and Spotter
But she's she fired, she fired straight.
I I was laughing when I read about that in the book because friends of mine who had gone to the Marine Corps Scout sniper course used the Inudal scope and they told me the exact same thing you guys wrote in the book, that the mill dots are made out of wax or something like this, and they melt off of the crosshairs.
Yeah, you can always say you can tell an old Canadian sniper and arrange because he'll he'll take his hat and he'll put it on his scope. Yeah, because the radical was wire and the mill dots are made of wax.
So you never wanted the scope to heat up because then your mill dots get out of shape and then you're doing a judging distance po and you know you're trying to cut that target by a mill dot that you know should be a mill and maybe now it's one point three or one point two so we've we've definitely advanced from that.
And for the young people out there as civilians who are not necessarily acquainted, could you describe the two positions on the sniper team, the sniper and spotter for folks out there.
Yeah. Absolutely. The way the way we would operate is the you know, you have you have your shooter, your primary shooter who will will kind of have all the primary data, the primary dope dope on the gun, and then you'll have your spotter. The way the way we would structure it is your your spotter is your more senior guy because spotting is Spotting is more difficult. Spotting
requires more skill. Spotting, Spotting requires more time. And if you've moved into the spotting position, you've you've already had that that time on the gun. And I always describe it to people and they're always in amazement. I always say, well, you've seen the movie The Matrix, and you see when Neo's dodging bullets and you can see that shockwave coming
off the bullet. I tell people, well you can see that, and they're like, you can't see that, and I'm like, yeah, you could see that, and that's you know, ultimately, why why we're spotting and why when you're when you're seeing a sniper team, you know that spotter is so the spotting scope in line to the shooter with his scope over the barrel, so you're getting that true relation to when you're seeing that swirl when when you're spotting that round to you know, if you don't get a first
round hit, as Hollywood makes it look like we always get first round hits. But as you know, Jack, that's that's not always the It doesn't always happen. So you want to have a good spotter who's going to be able to make that quick, fast correction you know, either you know a hold off or or you know if you're gonna just windage or whatever. But that's the basics of how we'll work in a two man team.
The spotter really is like the human calculator that comes up with the formula and tells the sniper what the program into the scope. And the sniper really is just a marksman, real a very good marksman. But all he
¶ The Importance of Team Cohesion
has to do is pull the trigger, right, He has an easy job.
Yeah, And I mean we we train and we cross train so much, and especially before we deploy that you know, if I have to roll over and get behind, we'll say the three three eight. You know, you know I can do it vice versa. You know, he can come
over and spot and and again. Like I think, why we are so good or why we're you know, why we are very good at the job of being a sniping is that we just have that we have that cross training and we have that confidence to switch out in a position because you know, if we're going out for two or three days, one guy can't stay on
the gun for all that time. You know, you got to switch out, and you got to have the confidence and your teammates to be able to to be able to do the job if if you're not the one on the gun.
You know, this is something I've heard, Barry, you can confirm or deny for me if this is true or not. I heard that One of the reasons why the Canadians are field such good sniper teams is it has to do with in the Canadian military, those teams can stay together much longer than they can for instance, in the American military, where the sniper and spotter have worked together for years and years.
Definitely, Jack, in my experience, you know, I think that's that's that's pretty true. And I think if you talk to other Canadians they would say the same. And I think that's also to the point where we're a small military, you know, especially compared to the US, you know, and we try to keep the specialties to where they need to be. So if a guy, you know, if he gets into snipers and he's doing well and he's progressing, then why wouldn't we want to keep him in that position?
And then you know, and like you know, I mean, you build that confidence with your with your spotter and vice versa. And the more arranged time you get, you know, shooting in all the different conditions, different distances and such, and especially if you get to deploy with with with that guy and with that team and stay together, it's just gonna make you it's gonna make you better, it's gonna make you more effective.
Yeah, that's huge to have that kind of rapport between the sniper and spotter over such a long period. And I know this is jumping a little bit forward in your personal story, but while we're talking about training, i'd like to bring it up. You mentioned the advanced course. How does that differ from the basic one? That we've been talking about.
So so the basic I hate to call it basic because it's anything but basic, but it's you know, you're laying the foundations for everything that's gonna that's gonna propel you forward, you know, as a sniper, whereas the advanced course is you're you're you're learning the tactical side, the
¶ Engagements and Combat Experiences
employment of a sniper. Debt about briefing company commanders, about briefing unit commanders on the best way to employ the best way to employ a sniper debt because we don't have or or we didn't have we never we didn't have an officer. So an n c O was an n c O was it in our In our case, it was a warrant officer, And you know, he's responsible
to go and potentially brief a lieutenant colonel. And and if we break it down further me as a as a debt commander with my my dad, if I'm you know, going to work in a company with an infantry company, then it's going to be a sergeant that's going to be going in briefing a major potentially, So you know, and I think having that n c O knowledge and and and learning those skills of building your courses of action and being able to to do a brief in
front of officers. It's you know, it's just another I think it's just another skill that you know, Canadians and snipers that we bring to the table. That's why I throw in something on that. I'm sorry to interrupt, Jack.
You know, the interesting thing is having talked to a bunch of these guys, I was always amazed as to how many officers had no idea how to deploy snipers in combat zones. How it was up to the ums, the unit massive sniper or whoever it was, to actually kind of convince them and brief the officers as to the best deployment of various detachments across the front or something like that.
That was a huge thing. I was surprised by that.
I would have thought by now in the twenty first century, you know, they would know how to employ snipers to the best abilities for everyone involved.
But that wasn't always the case.
I think it's an ongoing issue mirror. I mean, any kind of specialized troops, be they snipers, reconnaissance or even like mortars. And now today you get into electronic warfare and drone specialists. You know, if the officers haven't been brought up on that, on those tactics in their basic course, then they're not going to know how to employ those troops when they have them, you know, as a resource.
Fair enough. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And I think I think too. I mean as a if I'm a decmmander and I'm in Afghanistan, you know, I don't I want to be able to explain my capabilities to an officer. I don't want him to be trying to explain my capabilities to
me because he hasn't done the course. He hasn't done the training, right, he doesn't know, he hasn't gone out in these tiny small groups, you know, where you have to be self sufficient where if qrf's on fifteen minutes notice to move, that doesn't mean shit because there it's thirty minutes till they get to you, right. So my team is my team, and I know how to best employ it. So and you know, survivability is one of the factors that I have to look at when I'm
¶ Operation Medusa: A Canadian Perspective
I am going to deploy my debt, especially you know, into combat.
So yeah, the advanced course is training you guys to be the voice inside the talk that's representing the sniper detachment exactly. Yeah, you went to ranger school. You mentioned that. We'll talk about that a little bit more as we get down here. Tell us about your first deployment over to Afghanistan.
So the first deployment in snipers.
Yeah, oh, your first was with the infantry.
Yeah, but I mean two thousand and five was your first deployment to Afghanistan in the regular army.
Yeah, and as as just an infantry soldier and then so yeah, I mean, I mean two thousand and six, there was you know, I was I was sniper trained.
I was in the sniper platoon, and Canada had we had been in Afghanistan and at least in Kandahart now for a few years, so you know, I remember, I really remember it because guys were dying and in the Canadian Army we were still getting used to that, like we're in combat and guys are dying, and so there's just you know, there's that build up to the deployment, and you know, and then you get there and I think there's always that thing in the back of your
head is like, you know, okay, I've been a soldier for you know, eight nine years now like, but I haven't been a soldier in combat yet, and I'm going into combat and I'm going to see combat like, and how am I going to react? So have that in the back of your head, like how what am I going to do when the bullets start flying? You know, how am I going to react? So definitely not trepidation.
But you know, and I talk about it in the book in during aut MEDUSA, when you know, the first time when I was personally under direct fire when the tal band were just shooting at me, and you know, I remember it so well. We were wed, We've been up in mouse Gar supporting at MEDUSA, and the worst of it was was over, and I said, ah, you know, I got to go down and make a phone call. So walk down the down the mountain about eight hundred meters to one of the labs. And you know, of
course I'm wearing a soft cap. I don't have anybody armran. I've got my C eight suppress the eight slung over my back and you know, I'm walking into the left as the argandab. But on the other side is you know, the Taliband still there. And I hear a machine gun burst off to my left and I don't think anything of it. And I think because it was so far away, you know, the rounds were subsnic when they went over
my head, so there was no crack. But the rocks started just just kind of dancing all above me, and I said, holy shit, they're shooting at me. And I just swung my C eight around, grabbed it. I'm not going to shoot back, obviously, and I just ran. I just I sprinted as fast as they could to that lab and I got to it, and you know, I get behind the big, big green monster and I'm safe. And I was just like, holy shit, they were shooting at me.
And you know, you mentioned the Arghandab Valley and I just want to point out that we have interviewed a eighty second Airborne Division guy and one hundred and first Airborne Division guy who told us about, you know, operating in that valley as infantry. And I mean that place was nasty. That was a very hot area.
Yeah, it it it was a hot area. And you know, I'll say we as first combat deployment, you know, we we were learning fast. You know, we were we were learning quick. We're doing a lot of infills. Well ninety nine percent of our infills we were doing by night, you know, small units MBG. It all lucky if we had some surveillance overhead, you know, telling us the way was clear. But yeah, it was a heavily it was a heavily idd area, very difficult to identify, you know,
good guys from bad guys. One day there, Yeah, and they they're they're spraying eight K rounds at you. So it was definitely an intense area and a lot of a lot of lessons learned working in and out of there.
But can you kind of lay out the big picture what Operation Medusa was, because that's sort of like all in and around this book.
I feel like, yeah, it's certainly a big portion. So two thousand and six, the Canadian contingent and mirror jump in here anytime.
I want to point out something real quick. Actually, the interesting thing is two thousand and six was really mostly a Canadian operation in that area. I mean, I'm not saying no Americans participated, because we know differently, but it was really primarily a Canadian operation. And in two thousand and six you could still call in a lot of air support, artillery, things like that, and that would change in twenty ten.
I think so.
¶ The Evolution of Sniping Tactics
My impression has always been from Medusa is one of the biggest Canadian ops I think since the Korean War. I think correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it was. And they were supposed to seize a particular town and drive out the Taliban from there, right and they had to cross the river, and there was all sorts of aerial bombardment, artillery, all this kind of stuff. But I think political pressure forced an early attack. I don't think the Canadians smile. I don't think the Canadians
were quite ready to launch the assault. I don't think that it's soft enough targets, things like that. But the key thing to remember in two thousand and six they had a lot of air and artillery availability and they could basically hit anything they wanted to. And that it will change by twenty ten, as Barry will eventually tell.
Us, but meda OP Medusa was a huge.
Thing for Canada, and Barry will tell you all about the sniper.
Use over there.
But we should also remember Op Medusa is where Canadians take a lot of casualties, and not from the Taliban but from Americans.
So anyway, I'll let Barry jump back in Yeah, Jack lake Meer said it was. It was a big operation. We you know, we were going into into Panjway to to push the Taliban out. You know, I was a I was a master corporal. I don't know what that would would that equate to in the in the US military. So we had I was the second in command of our of our three sometimes four man sniper detachment, depending
on what we were doing. We were attached to Charles Company, and it was about a two day road movement into the Argandaub and then we seized. We seized the we seized massom Gar and the infantry guys were were happy to throw us out of their labs. And then we had to walk up massoom Gar with you know, incredibly heavy rocks. Probably mine was probably tipping one hundred and fifty pounds. I had an AR ten, I had two hundred rounds seven six two and in that plus all
of our optics, plus food, water and all that. And you know, the the initial once we got up and we got set up, you know, and and we're in the high ground and we're looking across the Argandab and you know, everything is quiet, right, everything is quiet. We're not seeing any movement. It's it's kind of early morning. The labs, the infantry units, they're getting into their into their positions. And then, like Mirad said, there's there is a plan for a two to three day bombardment of
the area. That happened, but it was not the intensity or the length that we were initially told in the
¶ The Impact of IEDs on Combat
in thes process of it. And I'll tell you why that was. You know, they fired, from what I heard, they fired everything from enable guns to mlrs is you know, a tens every aircraft you could think dropped on that lot tillery. And after a few days of that, the decision was made for the Charles Company, the Infantry Company, to push across.
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Thanks guys, and you guys set up an observation position and we're overseeing that push.
Well, we we had been up in an observation post. We were we were co located with it. We actually had a couple of Americans with us that we're we're doing, uh, we're doing a couple of things as well. And you know, my detachment commander made the decision that we'd be better suited to go across with the push, and once we got across, then to push out to a flank and
then to provide plank security and overwatch. So we were actually in the thick of it and we turned into back into just pure infantry soldiers after some of a couple of vehicles got hit, mobility kills, guys got killed,
¶ The Human Element in Sniping
and you know, for a couple a couple of minutes there all hell broke loose.
The idea was that the like We said before that the bombardment would soften up everything, and the assumption had been I think it was shortened by a day.
Don't quote me on that.
The assumption had been that everything had been softened up, the Taliban weren't going to pose a problem, and so you guys launched the assault across the river and all that stuff, and that's and everything to your front opened up basically, So the apartment may have done something, but it certainly didn't soften up with the resistance by any stretch of the imagination.
I think those guys were too hard and tough to be softened up like they were. They were fierce. They were ferocious. Uh they you know, they bought us for every inch and ultimately we we pulled back.
Yeah, and I'm steering.
It's steering that pulled back.
Though I think that Charlie Company gets hit by the AT ten unless I'm mistaken.
Somewhere around that time, once we had, once the push had stopped and we had taken we'd taken at that point for four kia, a lot of wounded, a couple of vehicle kills. The decision was made to pull back, and we pulled back to our original position on Massive Guarden. It was a day or two later when an A ten came and you know, again I can only speculate, but you know, they got cleared on. My understanding was was they got talked onto a fire that was on
the other side of the river. The fire was misidentified, and you know, a short burst was let out on on the A ten and you know, for those of us who know the sound of it, it's unmistakable. And that burp was a very short burp, you know, and it ended up killing one Canadian and wounding upwards of twenty or twenty five and making that infantry company combat ineffective.
I mean, Jesus, what happened after that? I mean, then the sun comes up the next day, and I mean, what's the what's the battle plan? Because I remember you're writing in the book about like the base getting attacked that you were in.
Yeah, I mean, in that situation with with the A ten, I remember I was sleeping and I had like my ranger blanket pulled over my head, and that A ten woke me up, you know, and everyone, and then you look down at the main body of the company and you just see, you know, dust and smoke, and it's like,
¶ Reflections on Military Service
you know, what just happened is the is the reaction and luck we had some Canadian SF guys uh located very near to us, and you know they sent their advanced medic guys down and just started patching and bandaging, and you know, it was, it was, it was. It was a crazy time for sure, especially when we don't know, we didn't know what happened.
Yeah, wow, that's terrible. And so I mean, you guys start evacuating the wounded, and what was the next phase for this mission?
You know, that's that's jack where it got it kind of got, it got weird, you know, is the so we evacuate the you know, chnucks came in because there's so many casualties. Chnucks came in. They're taking the wounded out, and you know, slowly it was almost like the Four on the Mountains sort of scaled down. We stayed up
in that op. We had a like I said, we had a there's a Canadian SF team up there watching another objective and they were they left, and then an ODA team ended up coming up because they were pushing into our ao and you know, eventually after that, you know, intense push by Charles Company to get across the argondob
and to seize that ground. Eventually, what ended up happening, it was a combination of an a Canadian and I think some Americans, you know, probably two weeks later, and they just gently walked across the argondab and met no resistance.
Well that is weird.
Yeah, I should point out the one.
I also think do some Gord and the other detachments were calling in strikes unless I'm mistaken, whereas you guys had gone down h to become infantrymen. Basically, I think the other other detachments were out there still calling fire and all that kind.
Of stuff onto onto the village. Unless I'm mistaken on that, I think. Yeah. Cord's debt was also on masson Guard here about eight nine hundred meters away from us. They were definitely calling in fire. And then we had another sniper debt with a blocking force to the north. And even once when we did finally pull back and got back up into our original position, we were we were
¶ The Future of Canadian Military Operations
much more effective there, like Mier said, because you know, we had artillery, we had we had air and you know, I think again what makes any like we were chatting before makes a Canadian sniper you know, lethal is Okay, I can't shoot you with the gun. Well I have a radio and I'm gonna call in a fire mission on you. And oh I don't have guns. Well I'm gonna I'm gonna jump onto the you know e cast net and and see who's up there, and and and
and see what I can call in. And you know, I think we we that's a bit bring a big skill that we brought the tape and that we also you know, learnt in Afghanistan, you know, in combat is Hey, maybe we can't get them with the gun, but there's plenty of tools in the toolbox that we can use.
And when the when you met up with the ODA up there, is that where you ran into your old ranger buddy.
Yeah, so you know, and it was it was really surreal. So I mean, like I said, I did Ranger School O three and you know, you meet some great people through it, and uh, I meet I meet a guy Joe Healy. He's uh, he was ODA. He was a sergeant and we just sort of we were in the same company or platoon in Ranger School, and uh, you know, we just sort of clicked. We we stuck together through
the whole school. I remember during one of the phases, I was the pl and he my platoon sergeant, and we had to set up the patrol base and everyone's tired and hungry, and nobody wants to listen. They just want to get their fifteen minutes to sleep and eat
their ration. And him and I would just work, just work great together, you know, And you know you lose, you lose touch with these guys as much as you think you're gonna you're gonna be able to keep in touch with them, you know, but it's but it's hard. So yeah, it's this is like host MEDUSA Push were still in massive Guar and I was on shift in the op and I'm just I'm looking across the argandaub and we're told, hey, there's a there's no DA team
coming up. Just to see they're coming up. They're going to park half their team here and they're gonna go set up another position higher up on the mountain. So it's okay. So they come up and I can hear them behind me, but I'm on shifts. I don't pay any attention. They go up the mountain and I get relieved and I'm sitting back in the shade and I'm looking at all their backpacks, their rocks and they all
had their name tapes on them. And I look and I see the last name, Heally, And I joked to one of the guys Cash, I said, hey, that was my best buddy in sniper school, you know, knowing well that you guys have what did I say, ranger school? Sorry, knowing that you know, the US has upwards of fifty thousand Special Forces soldiers and the whole Canadian military has about fifty thousand in it. So I thought never crossed
my mind that that was that was the guy. And so I see see them, all the US and the ODA team. They're they're walking down the hill and you know, getting bigger, and okay, I can I can make out arms and legs now and you know, and I'm looking and I'm looking, and I see this big, tall guy and he's got a Boston Red Sox hat on and and I'm looking at him, and I look back at his rucksack, and I look at the name, and I look back at him and I just say, no way.
So he keeps he keeps walking closer, and he's you know, He's basically right in front of me and I have my my Tilli hat hold Dell Low and I just look at him and I go, hey, hoser. He looks at me and we just kind of smile. And then you have this rest of this you know, Green Beray team, who were going, who's this fucking Canadian calling us a hoser? Right? And then yeah, the next thing, you know, you know, we hug, We have a we have a super awesome
man hug. And then uh yeah, he's like, holy shit, guys, you know, in his in his accent because I think all Americans have accent, He's like, yeah, this is Barry from Ranger School. And and you know it's funny because that introduction and just having that connection that whole ODA team was like, fuck, yeah, you guys are good, right,
And we did some damage up there. You know, we definitely did some damage up there with you know, them having the air assets that they could control, and just our ability to observe and to uh and to you know, to to pick targets. It was I'll say it was meant to be.
There was another interesting vignette that I'd like to ask you that I think happened somewhere around this time where you guys had an op that got compromised by the locals and it was just like one village boy seeing that some rocks were overturned or something like that. Can you tell us about that story?
Yeah, I mean, and that was a constant issue that we had. Was and we would all say, you know, it's like the mountain is the mountain is their TV? They don't, they don't. That's what they look at. And when if something's out of place, they know it right like they know that it's moved, they know that it's changed. They they just had this uncanny ability to to just to be able to understand the smallest change in their
environment and think something's up there. And I mean, like Jackie, the amount of times that we had been out and just thought we were we were good, and no one saw us, and then all of a sudden, the kid would just come walking out, and they would alway a sudden, a kid and they would just come walking out and he turned and he just look right at us, and we're like, he can't see us. We're highly trained snipers,
masters of stealth and camouflage. He can't see us. And you know, anytime they sent the kid out, they knew we were in the area, and then we were like, all right, time to go, because if we didn't, we knew what was the next It's gonna be a RpK versus going to be an RPG or or hopefully not a recoilists rifle around that it's going to come ripping over our heads. But yeah, because the kids were a warning.
Yeah, there's something about you know, children get into everything. I mean, anyone who actually has kids knows, you know, how that works, or remembers what it was like to
be a kid themselves. And there's another story in your book that your buddy Gordon tells in Kosovo where him and his buddy are wearing their gilly suits and they're wearing the big bear suits and think they're super well hidden, and a little girl has her ball bounce away off trail and she goes down the hill to get her ball and sees through snipers like holy shit, Yeah it goes on her mom. Yeah, yeah, that's true.
Also another thing, I'm sorry, I want to point out another thing. I mean, I think you were a sniper in the range of Italians, Jack, unless I'm mistaken or at least you were on the long gun of sorts. But what I always found interesting is when I was talking to these guys is about the ranges that they were shooting at in Afghanistan. Right, this was genuine sniping. This was not law enforcement shooting or you know, city urban shooting. This was long range shooting. So I was
always I always found that to be quintessential Canadian. I don't know why, but since I guess Canadians were only in Afghanistan, they hold the record for these long range shots, and it's always stuck out to me about how good they really were at long range shooting.
This is the one thing I observed from all my research and hanging out with the guys.
So anyway, I thought I should point that out.
Barry, Do you want to move forward to the twenty ten deployment.
Yeah, absolutely, So, you know, I guess four years removed, I would have done my I would have done my advanced sniper course. And then it was our turn to rotate, to rotate back in again, and and and like you had said, Jack, you know, with the ability to stay together, I'll say that, you know, our sniper platoon changed, but the core, the core was still there, the core guys you know, who were there in O six with the that experience and those lessons learned, you know, we're going
back in twenty ten. And plus we had the the bonus that we had trained the guys that were coming with us, because we run our sniper courses in house, Unlike I know, US Army they have their US Army Sniper School. You know, they all go through there. They all go through the same thing we would run our
units would, we would run our own sniper courses. And again, you know that helps because we're training the guys that are potentially going to come into our into our unit, that are going to come and serve with us, that are going to you know, go into combat with us. So it's a it's a big bonus. So we we deploy back twenty ten. I'm a I'm an attachment commander now and we're I'll say we're in a we're in a different We're definitely in a different area. We still shoot.
We still went back to a few of the old the old haunts, but we were I guess we call like Adams, I Adams, I chain Chalawatt. Definitely some different areas. The big thing that stands out with that tour was the amount of IEDs had just increased tenfold in two thousand and six. I think the Taliban they tried to
fight us more. They would try to go toe to toe with US engages with a lot more small arms, a lot more ambushes, but they lost because you know, we've got artillery, we've got aircraft stacked at all these levels, and we've just got we're just so lethal. We're just such a lethal force. And a lot of that was combined with the obviously with the Americans with multiple ODA teams that we worked with, and in twenty ten it seemed like that was scaled back a bit, but the
IDs were just littered everywhere. We had a lot of casualties from ID strikes, luckily not us, although we did have one in two thousand and six when we were out on a patrol. But even the ROE in twenty ten was different. The ability to call in air or
to call an artillery was much more. It was restricted as far as what we could do, and I think that made our role as sniper's even more important because we could we could use that precision fire with the minimum collateral damage, which was which was a big thing in twenty ten where I mean maybe we're going we were going a little bit more hearts and minds by
that time. Now, having been fighting this insurgency for almost a decade, I would definitely say there was a definite shift in twenty ten into how we fought, just like there was a shift in how the Taliban fought in twenty ten. So it was it was a you know your your steps, and we still did the majority of our insertions at night, We did the majority of our insertions on foot, but it definitely up the risk factor just with the increased ID thread on that tour.
And you talk a little bit about I think one of your engagements you thwarted a ambush that was being planned.
Trying to think of the one if there.
Was more patrol going out. You had a patrol going out and you guys were on top of the mountain. I think it was with Gordon. I think that's the thing that was. I think that was God. Yeah, he hit someone who was preparing to send an ambush for the infantry patrol that was going to go through the town.
And uh, I think you observed some guy with a radio or something like that, and then Yeah, Gordon didn't tell anyone he was going to take the shot, and he scared the ship out of everybody on patrol when his rifle went off. And I want to say he hit someone on that, but I don't remember that exactly, but I think that's the mission if there's like.
I think jack if you know. And this was actually one of the chapters that mir Mirror wrote in third person from one of my stories, and that was when we were on on a mountain called the salavat Gar And honestly, this was just it seemed like just such a classic sniper mission where you know, the planning was excellent.
The the major in charge, he knew the best way to deploy snipers was to let the snipers tell him how, how how we were going to deploy, and that was major, That was a major brown and he gave us that flexibility and we came up with the with you know, I think a stellar plan given the results, and what
we did was our debt. We pushed out the night before, waited till dark, We in filled up up the mountain, we got into position, you know, still under dark, and once we were set, then they pushed a patrol out from they pushed a patrol out from one of the strong points, and so we're we're hidding up the mountains.
We've got the three thirty eight. You know, the sun's coming up, You're getting a good indication of the wind because the cooking fires are coming up and they're set at different distances, so you're getting your you know, you're getting your near wind, you're getting your bar wind, and
you know, we're elevated, we're hidden. And the focus was completely on this patrol that was walking through and you know, I was I was spotting at the time, and one of the guys is on the three thirty eight, and we're sort of tracking these couple of guys through through a village and the patrols coming from north to south down kind of down a wadi line, and you know, these two individuals are getting a little bit more interested in the patrol, and you know, we have our roes
and we're we're very strict with our roes, and in this instant, this individual was was was definitely in contravention of the roes in close proximity to the to the patrol, and you know, without thought, you know, it was standby send it. You know, we crack a three thirty eight round. It goes over the patrol. Because they're below us, we didn't have time to warn them. You know, they all hit the deck. You know, we we engage the guy.
I think he was out of a I think his six hundred and eight meters, and you know, it's it's a it's a good hit. And then you know, we just radio to the patrol, Hey, that was us. You guys are good, you know, And then control gets up and dust themselves off. They can they continue there, They continue their patrol through the town. Everything's good. They're looping back around, and we've just got a really great position.
We've got basically three hundred and sixty degree views. We're fairly well hit, and we're in a defendable position, if you know, if if the ship was going to hit the fan on our end anyways, and we can see north up this road into this open area that the patrol has to cross to get back to the camp. Well, we weren't the only ones thinking that and knowing that.
So as the patrols looping around and they're getting ready to come through this open area in the field, great, there's great fields below us, and you know, people were starting to mill about, and you know, they weren't farmers. And you know, a tactic that that that the Talban would always use is they would I think the hide from from the drones was from surveillance was they'd always just wrap a blanket or something around a gun and
they would carry it. And that was always like an RpK. Right, It's like, that's going to be an RpK under that blanket. So guys are just starting to set up. I think Talban are starting to set up, getting eyes up up that road to where they know the Canadians are going to cross, you know, and it's a you know it's going to it's gonna funnel, it's gonna funnel them in there. And you know, so we picked this guy up walking and he's he's carrying he's carrying something's got a big
blue cloth on it. We know what it is, but we don't have like, we don't have paid, we don't have a positive ID. We we can't say that's a gun, and we we can't shoot him. At this point, the team said, switched up. So we had we had another guy. We had been actually the number one on the three streight and then my two. I see he was spotting, and I'm on the colms, so I'm talking to the patrol commander and i can see him. I'm like, hey, you guys, gotta wait, you gotta stop. We got you know,
we got a situation developing here. We've got just just give us a few minutes. And then so this guy carrying this you know what we believed to be a gun, he just he stops on the trail and for whatever reason, maybe to reassure himself that he was in fact carrying an RpK, he just took the cloth off, and you know, two of us are like RpK, like PEDI RpK. And we can see it. We can see where he was going. We could see where he was going to set up
the gut. You know, he's just as soon as the Canadians started crossing, he was just going to start laying rounds down. And you know he's walking, he's getting close to his position, and you know, I'm talking to guys. I'm like, yeah, do what you gotta do when when you when you see the right window for the shot. And then I'm radio in the patrol and I'm like, hold, hold, hold, just wait and then sure enough, you know, the guys, the guys engage, you know, moving target. I think that
one was four seventy five. And you know, once we once we made that shot, the gig was up because all the other Taliban just turned and looked up at the mountain ye and we were like, okay, it's time to go. So we're like gay patrol. You guys are clear. And our plan was to stay up till dark and then you know, come down. And at that when I made the call like back up, we got to get out of here because there's going to be if we
stay here, we're going to be in a world to hurt. So, you know, good good day for us, bad day for them. But they weren't all like that.
Do you want to walk people through like the verbiage between the sniper and the spot or real quick which leads into the title of your book.
Yeah, And I mean I would like to hear yours yours on this. I don't know if that's uniquely Canadian or not. I've definitely heard different variations of it. But you know, you know, right from training, it's you know, you're and your sniper team and we're we're on the range. Or or or or you're in combat, it's it's always the same, and it's just this calm sort of just like rhythmic. Just you just get into this. You just get into the zone, right, you just you're because you're
so comfortable behind behind the gun. You're so comfortable behind the spotting scupe and it doesn't matter if your knees and elbows are digging into jagged rock and you're bleeding. It's just you just get into that zone. And you know, the communication when you're getting down onto a target, it's just it's quiet, it's calm, and you know as as
the shooter. You know, the shooter is going to make that decision as to when he's going to fire, but the spotter is the spotter is continually monitoring the targets. He's monitoring the winds, he's monitoring the mirage. You know, he's looking for those changes that he's going to need to to talk to the shooter about if we need to make a small correction. You know, we have our initial windage dialed in, but if we need to do a whole left or right, you know, that's that's what
the spotter is doing. So you know, the shooter knows he's he's he's in position, he's getting his breathing down, you know, he's in that slow breathing and it's it's, you know, top of your breath. The shooter is saying stand by, where he's like, I'm on target. You know, I'm good to go. I'm ready to release the shot. He says, stand by. He's doing that three quarter xhale.
And as the spotter, because you know, we're cross trained, I know where he is in his breathing cycle, and I'll try to match that sometimes too if I can. And then it's send it, you know, and once he hears that, send it, once he's ready, once he's applied all those marksmanship principles and you know we're good with the target, then it's that slow squeeze. And you know, I say this in the book, that's still the best phrase I've ever i'll I think i'll ever hear is stand by. Send it.
Yeah, I think we used very similar terminology. I think we might have said shooter ready and send it. Might have been it going back a ways for me, but very similar. So after that deployment, I mean, do you want to talk about sort of like the end of your military career and how you retired out of the military.
You know, I love the military. I still love the military. And you know what the best thing for me for getting out was, you know, I got out on my terms. I was a sergeant. I had, you know, turned down the next leadership course because I just knew, I just
knew I was done, you know. And and even in Mirror Rights, a mirror rates a chapter in the book and it's you know, I can tell you my mom was upset me because she read the book and and I'm I'm standing outside a tent and I'm smoking a cigarette, and my mom was like, oh my god, you smoked over there. I said, yeah, Mom, I didn't have a cigarette in my mouth. I had a you know, a dip a skull in my mouth. And you know, you just do bad things when you think there's potential for
bad things that are going to happen to you. And then standing outside in a in a fob, I'm smoking a cigarette and two mortar rounds land one hundred and fifty meters away inside the camp, and you know, I'm on my fifth tour. I'm in my thirties now, And it was literally that moment where I was like, okay, you know what, I've used my nine lives and then some I've lost some good friends, and I just at that time I made the decision to say, you know,
I'm going to look for something else. How long were you in for at that time, Well that was that was twenty ten, So that was thirteen thirteen years, thirteen years. Five deployments and yeah, kept you busy, absolutely, Yeah. So I mean I hung around the battalion for a couple more years, taught on a few more taught on a few more courses, and then you know, I left at the pinnacle. In my mind, I wasn't going to do
anything better. There was nothing I could do within the regular army that was going to tap having you know, been able to deploy twice as a as a sniper into Afghanistan, which is pretty rare amongst you know, amongst Canadian snipers get too, you know, combat deployments to Afghanistan. So you know, been there, done that, got the T shirt, and it was trying to move on.
Hey, do you remember that picture you guys showed me of the stuffy that you guys said left on the path that you were hoping the Taliban would walk on and take a.
Look at it. That was That was Percy the Penguin. Yeah, what year was that? Can you tell us a little bit about that? So that was that was two thousand and six. And you know, again, for whatever reason, my mom had sent me this, this tiny little stuffed penguin at Christmas. He had had like a Santa Claus had on and a little jingle bell sewn into him. So we we had to tacticle him up. So we took the hat off, we took the jingle bell out, and we named him Percy. I won't tell you why we
named him Percy. So Percy would ride in my in my breast pocket of my shirt on every off we went on after that. So one day we were we were double I think there's five or six of us in the team, and we had pushed out to watch an objective and we were the set. We took the second floor of this building and we had strong pointed it and we're like, well, you know, what if what if somebody walks by? You know what if the Taliban walk by? Then you know the best bet is, you know,
how do we get them to stop? So what we did was we put Percy on the trail with a little note when we thought that would grab anybody's attention. I won't say what was on the note. I won't say what was on the note, but uh, you know, fortunately for the Taliban, they didn't walk by that day. But yeah, I still have Percy somewhere.
I think we have a viewer question for you d if you want to read that off for.
Them from al what's Barry's opinion on the modernization plans for the Canadian Army?
I mean from friends that I still have in the army. And you know, there's been a lot of media about it, with you know, the Prime Minister saying he's going to meet the meet the two percent uh spending and then I think they're going in the right direction. I think
I think we need to get more current. I think we always have sort of been a little bit behind in as far as procurement, but I think we always make up that where we just we have top notch soldiers, were cross trained and you know, we have the ability to act in in so many different roles and because we're such a small force, you know, we we we need to have that capability and we need to keep
that capability and and I know we are. I've got friends that are you know, they're they're in Latvia with doing training missions throughout there, and guys that I had served with, and you know, from them they're telling me is that you know, they're going in the right direction, They're keeping the standards high, and you know, Canada, we're going to continue to be a top notch professional force, you know, as we go into the as we go into the next whatever, the next theater of operations is.
Guys, thank you for joining us tonight. Is there anything else that we haven't talked about that you'd really like to bring up either one of you?
Yeah, I just want to point out I didn't go to Ranger school because people like Barry got my slot.
Okay, you're you're blaming the dirty foreigners, the Canadians, the Canadians. The Canadians took your job, mere, Is that what you're saying.
That's definitely what it is. That's why I had to move to Canada, one of them. But no, but it was great, you know, I mean, it's really great to hear Barry talk about this in some detail. And you know, the book did take on and off fifteen years to do.
And the best decision.
That I made and they made is that they decided to be part of it, because I think when you read the stalking chapter that Barry wrote, for example, I mean, that's the nitty gritty. If nothing else, you learn something. And then you know, if Gordon had the opportunity to make it today, we could have talked about what a nerd he is and the human computer.
That he is.
And you know, he wrote some very interesting chapters about what it takes to be one and weapons and you know, all the gadgets and things like that. And he talked a little bit about the future of sniping, which is in the book, so if you're interested in that, you can you can read up on that. And I remember what was very funny is when Gordon told me about this.
He was attending some five I thing in Washington, d C.
With a bunch of other people and we are talking about long range you know, drone AI that kind of stuff and shots at at four clicks and things like that, and they were talking about the challenges for the future with all that for the sniper and he said to two British officers behind him, said, we'll just send in drones, and Gordon was really funny and he said, you know, it really crushed our sniper hearts that these guys said
that they'd send in drones instead of us. But he remains optimistic about the human involvement and sniping, even if it's super long range, even if it involves AI and drones and what have you not. So I think the key thing for me that I've taken away from all of this is the thing that you can't replace, which
is that intangible human element. Right you look at someone like Barry Reti's stalking chapter, you can just imagine the pain or like any of us, you know, when we've gone through certain types of selection, the pain you're willing to put up with.
Standing you get from that? Uh is uh is.
I think what sets snipers and elite forces, and I will consider Canadian snipers to be absolutely elite. That sets them apart from most people. And I'm not belittling drone operators or people who work in AI, but there's something to be said about the human spirit, the intangible element.
Of a guy like a Berry, like a Gordon, like you, you know, who've gone and done the work without technique, speaking without a drone, a little bit of AI maybe, And I take it back, you did guys.
You guys did use some drones, but you know limited, you still needed to have your skill set and all that.
So just saying human element is always key in the future. And I think Jack, like the big the big thing with this book is, you know, you know, Hollywood, Hollywood TV. There's this myth you know about you know, the sniper, and it's about it's always about making that shot right. And what what what this book does is it it teaches you and it tells stories about what it takes to get up to that point to be able to
take that shot. The training that we have to go through, you know, the stocking, the shooting, the judging distance that you know, the mental the mental toll that it takes, the physical toll that it takes, you know, just to get to that point to say I'm a I'm a I'm a sniper, you know, I'm a Canadian sniper. And then and then the book it just takes you through missions and we're not glorifying them, you know, it's it's
it's gritty, it's it's raw. You know, sometimes we win and and sometimes we lose and that is that is all in the book. You know, those stories are in the book. It's not it's just not a glorified version. It's it's it's honest, it's true. And you know, I think anyone who who reads the book will you know, will see that. And there's and there's just you know,
so many great stories in it, you know. And I'll and I'll give a shout out to you know, Yeves Bdard, who is another guy who I was on two tours with who wrote a chapter in the in the book as well, And yeah, yeah, he's b It's just the perspectives in the stories in the book are you know. I just think they're they're honest, and they're raw, and they're I think people will find them really engaging. Yeah.
The last thing I want to add to this is something Barry told me a long time ago that stuck in my head. Actually he said Afghanistan didn't define him, but it refined him, and.
Somehow that's always stuck with me.
It's a great line I want to say about the book also that it's kind of a weird book. You know, usually sniper books about one guy who does all these wonderful things in his mind maybe in reality, but this book is sort of part manual, part mental examination, and then it's coupled with real world missions and I think that's what sets it apart. And it's got different perspectives on it. I think in total we had four people in there plus me who've contributed in some manner or anything.
But I think it's very representative of the entire Canadian sniping community.
I think I'm right on that.
And the book is titled Send It Canada Snipers at War in Afghanistan. Guys, where can people find the book? When's it coming out?
The book is out now, Jack and currently it's available on Amazon or well basically it's on Amazon right now.
Yeah, and kindall you can get paperback and kindle. So I would suggest, of course the book because I'm still old fashioned. I'd like to hold things in my hand so I know when it's doing well, it's gotten good use. And I'm very happy with the book actually, and I'm very pleased about the writing gord Berry and Bee had done for the book.
It really makes it unique.
So anyone who wants to know anything about sniping Canadian not otherwise, should really be reading this book.
When we had when we had once years ago, mirror. I remember showing you my Kindle and you were just befuddled by this contraption or what what? What is that? Like? You read books on this thing? Like what?
I'm still kind of like that, you know, I mean, you're only seeing parts of it. But I got something like three plus thousand books behind me, and I need a ladder to my book. So I love books, but it's it's, you know, the future really I think belongs to Kindle or Cobo or whatever ife around.
My personal preference is I like to read novels on my Kindle and nonfiction books like send It, I will buy and put on my bookshelf's and.
I should be I should give you a shout out. You've got a book, a novel coming out next year. Berry is working on a novel. I'm working on a novel. So we're all sort of still doing the writing gig. Always exciting.
Great. Well, we'll talk about that's those projects more down the line, I'm sure for sure for all of our listeners will have links down the description to send it where you can go and find it. Do you guys have any social media that you want to plug before we go.
I only have a website. Berry also has a website, but I think he's on Do you have social media, Berry, Yeah, I've got at send it book on Instagram. You can follow that, and I've got my website barrysenizbit dot com. You can also get the book through there. Just there's a link on there straight to Amazon.
Awesome. That sounds great. So thank you both of you for joining us tonight, being flexible and hanging with us. Really appreciate it. I know our viewers will too, And for all of you out there, we'll see you guys next time.
Thank you, Thank you, Thanks Jack, Thanks d.
Hey guys, I want to tell all of you today about a new newsletter that we're launching that encompasses both the Teamhouse podcast, the eyes On podcast, and the high Side news outlet, which I run with Sean Naylor. The newsletter is going to be once a week. It's going to come into your inbox and you're going to get the most current podcasts on eyes On and the Teamhouse and whatever's topical or current on the high Side. So it's another way for us to get the information out
to you. As social media algorithms are pretty iffy, and you never really know what you're gonna get. So this is a once a week email. It'll slide into your inbox and it will have you know the greatest hits of that week.
It's really good. Dan checking it out.
The website for it is Teamhouse Podcast dot kit dot com, slash Join Teamhouse dot kit dot com slash join.
Uh.
You go there and you enter into your email list, or you enter your email into the little thing on the website and you're good to go. And that'll be it. So we really appreciate your support and I hope you'll consider signing up. Where's the link. The link will also be down the description if you're looking for it
There, and that's Teamhouse Podcast dot Kit, k I, t Kilo India, Tango dot com backslash Join