From Special Forces to the 160th SOAR | Nick O'Kelly | Ep. 362

went and assessed for one sixtieth Special Operations Aviation. You were a Blackhawk guy, didn't direct apployment, and then got medically retired and now run a financial planning firm. And you have a book called Stigma coming out October twenty first.

a year. You have a good time. Yeah, So I like got the freedom out of high school and just went hard in college, and like it was one of those things where like I wouldn't go to class for a week and then I'm like, eh, I don't think it's worth going now. I think I missed too much. So long story short, I dropped out of college after a year and a half, went back home, worked for my dad for a year. He owned like a car magazine, and really was just partying and doing nothing with my life.

So fortunately in college I did RTC, so I had like some exposure to the army and kind of what it was, so That's what led me to be like, okay, I should probably do something. Let's look at the military. I initially went to the Marines and they told me, basically, we can't guarantee your job, can't guarantee your rems. So if you enlist, that's fine, but we don't you don't know what you're gonna do. So I was like, no,

I don't want to do that. So went over to the Army recruiter and he showed me the SF recruiting video and I was like, hell, yeah, that's those bad thing I've ever seen. Yeah, so let's go what do I need to do? And yeah, signed the dott A Line eighteen X ray and then shipped off for Basic

in July twenty ten.

It was more just like all right, let's go sweat my ass off every day and yeah, yeah, getting get in good shape.

It's that kind of you know, mutual respect a little bit. But I will say like X rays have such a leg up compared to somebody just coming from the regular Army as far as like selection, right, because you go to Sopsey right before, so you have three weeks where you're basically working out twice a day, sleeping like ten hours a day, and just eating protein and getting ready for selection. You know, they teach you land as you already have kind of a pre selection course built in.

Big Army doesn't get that, right, they exactly. So we have so we show up to selection kind of already and you hear all the G two through the pipeline right through the guys that are ahead of you, So you already kind of have an idea of like what you need to do to be successful. So I do

think the X ray program like is good in that regard. Now, I will say like when you get later in the course like SUT and stuff like that, that's when being an X ray sucks because leadership experience and stuff like that was not was not something that we had ever done before. So I was just like, how am I supposed to tell this E six ranger? You know what to do when I'm an EAT three you know what I mean? With no combat, no no experience or anything. So so it's good and bad. I guess what was

that like? Working with you know, a bunch of salty characters from the Big Army that come in there. There was there was hidden miss Some of them were really cool, like some of them were really down to earth. And I also think it like depended on what type of X ray you were, you know, because there were some X rays that just kind of had it coming and didn't you know they were cocky. Yeah, shouldn't have been, you know. So I do think that played a factor.

I tried to stay humble throughout it, so I never got too much. Yeah. Yeah, I was kind of trying to be the great man, so I didn't get too much ship from the hardened war vets, you know, yeah.

it was. Good point. Good point, because we didn't find out till yeah, until stage after sage. Actually, yeah, yeah, that's that's cool. What what what is the.

One night we go out and we were out till like three am, and I think we had to catch a five am bus for the Charlie Course, and my alarm goes off or no, not even my alarm. I get like my phone's just going crazy and a buddy's calling me like, dude, where the hell are you? And I literally just woke up and I'm like, shit, he's like the buses here, like you probably have like two minutes, dude,

and so throw my stuff on real quick. Paul asked down to the bus and I kid you not, like the bus doors were closing when I was running up to it. Knocked on the door and luckily the bus drivers of civilian, so it's not like Cadria there. But I barely made it. And you know, they read like I would have probably been kicked out of the course or at least recycled at a minimum. So like, yeah, the just shoe string, you know, metric for meeting the standard out there at the Q course. You know.

day after I graduated the Q course. So in Sage, our g chief and the locals or whatever set up a scenario where we went and played poker with the locals, and there was this young chick there that her job was to seduce one of us, try to seduce one of us, and of course I had to be the freaking sacrificial lamb, and you know, she was going at me hard, and I was just like what do I do? Like I'm literally engaged in the real world, you know,

and like, but I it's you know, it's Sage. She was supposed to play the part, and I'm just like, how do I navigate this situation? And I ended up kind of like lightly stiff arming, you know, enough to be like respectful, but like be like, guys, help me out here, Like I need some help, I need to curve. I need somebody to step in and help out. And fortunately, like I don't know if they just sensed that I was like extremely uncomfortable with it or something, but it

did back off. But man, that could have been like that was one of those moral dilemmas. Who was like toling her garter, be like literally like leaning over my shoulder, you know, and like putting her stuff on me. And I'm just like, all right, I just got engaged. You know this is not good. You went through a fun Robin sage. Yeah, I mean that was one day, so I mean, are you sure that was not on Liberty? Yeah?

Q course get married the day after yep. And now you guys are bags and baggage going towed Japan. Yeah, and my wife was in RTC at East Carolina University, so I was marrying up she was. I was yeah obviously at E five when I graduated, but she was commissioning like six months after I graduated. So it's one of those things that we were like, we gotta get married before you're in the army, you know, just to

avoid that conflict and everything. But the other curve ball was like there was no position for her to go to Okinawa. She was a signal officer, So it's like, shit, are we going to be like separated by you know, worlds right when we get married for a while. Fortunately, and you know how the army works, if you know somebody, it helps. So her dad was a forward colonel at West Point and he was able to literally call HRC and get orders like the next day, Like we tried

all the avenues first, right and nothing just crickets. And then literally she's like, Dad, I don't know what else to do. Can you make a phone call next day? Shit orders? I was like a kidding me. But the crazy thing is like they had a slot for her out there, like she slipt stepped in and was a platoon leader, and it was actual like an M too slot. So it's like, why are you guys you know whatever, bureaucracy, but but yeah, worked, it's the military, right And how'd

you like Gokinawa? I loved it for the short period that I was there. I mean we were honestly like, I was probably tdy more than I was on island. But now it was really cool.

so me and Dave showed up at the same time. Okay, so we were weird d and then the company lost a guy while we were literally like right when we got there, and so when they came back, man, we were just these X rays, no experience, and I think the majority of us were X rays, if not all of us, so no experience or anything, you know, very green, and we were not treated well, like, we were not

accepted right away. It was very much like the we got our click, you guys stayed in your lane, shut up you know, do what you're told, which is expected to some extent, right, but I feel like it was definitely like magnified by all that, just like the twenty eleven twelve. Yeah, so it'd been twenty twelve, Okay, yep, yeah, so so yeah, I got in a company. I mean they yeah, they had a pretty brutal deployment. So so we just had a lot of I would say imposter syndrome,

you know, because we didn't know anything. You know, we thought we were cool and then we got there and we got humbled real quick. Sure, but hey, guys, it's Jack. I want to tell you guys about the sponsor for today's show. It's Mando. Mando makes a whole series of male grooming products. They are unique and not There are a deodorant that you can use all over your body on armpits if you like, but also wherever else you may deem necessary. And I have been using these products

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It's not necessarily a combat the point, right exactly.

do it like and got per DM and everything. You know. It was high outsitude training and what the base camp for? Ah, can you explain that? Yeah? So so every space camp you you fly out of excuse me, katman do which is like the big city in the poul and then you fly to a town called Lukla, which is if you look it up on YouTube, it's actually like the most dangerous airport in the world. It's insane landing there.

It's like a super short runway and it's slanted up so that the aircraft have time to decelerate like before they hit the wall, so it's it's pretty nuts if you watch the videos. So flew into there, and I think that's at around nine thousand feet. So you start at Lucla and then it's ten days up to every space camp you end up. I think base camp is around eighteen thousand. So you make stops along the way and you have we had two shurpas with us, so

it was two odios that did it. So it was about twenty guys and two shurpas and it was a blast, like it was. It was one of those things that once in a lifetime opportunity to for sure, you know. And I think the most amazing thing is the the Nepalese people that live there, like just incredible. Man, you'll be it. You'll be like six teen thousand feet at like the second stop before base camp, and there's pool tables and like full bars and like somebody carried that

stuff up like on their back. You know, it's just nuts. I remember I went to the Annapurna base camp. We did that too.

was a really good experience. They were they were definitely I don't want to like fastardize this, but they weren't as competent as I would have expected. I guess for like a special operation, right, I'd say it was. But at the same time that was good for us, especially on a first jasion, because it allowed us to really like learn how to teach right and really learn how to be that SF guy instead of working with a more competent right exactly where it's almost like here peer

to peer, you know. So it allowed us to be to get into that role. Really, anything else you want to tell us about Nepal, I think that's it.

We kind of had a that was kind of a cush trip to some extent, like we stayed in hotel that no. Our OEFP was mexcitse Yeah, so the sixth month was excite, but that one was actually I don't even remember the location, to be honest, but no, that one was good. Actually, I do have one story from that that I can remember. So I'm an eighteen Charlie and I'm teaching time fuse and we're just doing like single blocks of C four with time fuse hooked up

to it. I don't remember whatever, two minute time fuse, three minute time fee something. And we had like six blocks laid out like spread up, spread apart in this open field, right and we get our safe distance and we put off the time fuse and we go back to the safe distance and everything's going fine for the first four blocks, so it's like five four three two one bang, you know, We're all good. And then the fifth block, nothing happens, and I'm like, shit, what is happening?

And at the same time, we see like a lit old brush fire on the side. So it was like an open field with like big brush on the side of it. So we see a brush fire starting on the side and we still have two live blocks, so we can't do anything right, and this fire starts spreading like pretty pretty rapidly, and I'm like shit, like this is you know, this is my second trip as a Charlie. I'm just like, oh God, like what do we do? I wanted to go out there, but I can't because

there's live C four out there. So the six block actually went off. So the six block went off, so now there's a fifth block that's still just out there, and I was like, all right. I talked to my team start and I'm like, dude, we got to do something like this. This is about to burn down the jungle in the Philippines. So we gave it a couple of minutes I think it was like three minutes or something,

which felt like an eternity. And then at that three minute mark, me and him went down there, kind of got like a distance look, you know, very like very cautiously approaching it. But we saw that the time fuse had gotten cut from that fourth charge, so it projected and cut that fourth time fuse before it could have

hit the C four. So went out there, cut the time fuse really close to the sea four grabbed, you know, obviously the block was fine, and then literally like thirty or forty Philippine scout rangers and us rushed down and just start taking pig branches and throwing down and trying to get tack this fire out. And it was a good probably fifteen minute process. That's next time, have them pie into a ring made, right, Yeah, right, right? I know,

so lessons learned? Right? And how I want to ask you a question because you know, you get this trip to an Apoli.

great time and you were doing you were doing the SF job.

year and a half, you're going to go. So it was like, damn, just kind of just miss yeah, like a couple of years or whatever. So yeah, for sure, I definitely felt that tell us about the second pump to the Philippines then, Yeah, So the second one was a it was a we were working with the law enforcement there, so the Filipino DA oh okay, yeah, so it wasn't. It wasn't necessarily military so is that the police force special action for so they were involved, but

the our primary was the DA. It was the p d A okay, yeah, p DA DA or something. So we actually worked at their schoolhouse and we but it it was treated pretty much like a normal Jason, Like we did the same shooting pois and demo pois and medical pois. So it wasn't it wasn't too out of the ordinary other than who we were working with. But that was a I mean, I don't remember anything dramatic or crazy happening in that one, to be honest. It was just it was a good trip, though, I do that.

So the nextus of it, and I didn't mention this before, was I looked into a program called high school to flight school before I even went eighteen X ray And that's essentially where you can if you have credentials, right, if you're like a pilot already or something, you can go straight into the army and become a warrant and go fly. So I already had that in the back of my mind that I kind of had the aviation

bug that I wanted to do it. And with that deployment and with kind of I don't want to tuck. I hope this comes out right. Like my wife did not deal well with me being gone all the time, sure, right,

so she got really stressed out. People don't get married to be single, true, Yeah, toochet so, and she was active duty, she had a baby at home, colic baby, right, so it was a lot of just stress that was weighing on her. So I kind of I kind of saw the writing on the wall that like if I stay in this job and I'm constantly gone all the time, like I'm kind of putting her through hell to some extent,

you know. So, so I'd looked to the other options, and I aviation was the thing that I was like, Okay, this is going to not only accelerate my career pay wise, right, but it's also going to give me a tangible skill that if I want to get out, I can fly, you know. So those are the biggest factors that went into it. And then during that OEFP deployment was when I would drop my.

I was obviously selected and got the opportunity. I do think a lot of it was because of the letters recommendation, well and probably being an SFKU and I'm sure helped a lot. But yeah, that's that's kind of how it works. So and then once you find out you're selected, then you just play the waiting game and wait for order. Star Rucker, Fort Rucker, Yeah, good old Fort. Yeah. And

how did flight school go for you? I think we've talked to a couple one sixtieth pilots about flight school and you're like going through conventional military training, right, Yeah, So dude, it was a culture shock to the core for me. So I was expecting this. I had this like opinion that in aviation everybody's on a first name basis. You know, you can grow out your hair, super chill. Yeah,

So I had that false expectation going into it. I get to four record and you take off your staff sergeant rank and you put on this stupid like snowbird rank is what they call it. It's like a WC whatever. Yeah, basically signaling to everybody that you're a new bid. Yeah you're the FNG so. So first though, before even flight school, you go to Warrnan Officer Candidate School, which is, in my opinion, the stupidest army course. It's changed now, thank god,

but it was not a gentleman's course. It was like a mini basic training where you you have no phones or anything for like five weeks. And dude, I'm telling you, they basically are trying to do basic training over again in a five week period, which is really.

Exactly how many cigarettes can you put out in you know, five seconds? Yeah, So that was like, so that was just dumb. It was one of those things you just had to get through. I ended up being like the cadet commander or whatever you call it for that, which was actually cool because the last two weeks of it, I got my own office with my cold sergeant major and he was a former one sixtieth guy, not a pilot,

but he was going to flight school. So we got a TV to ourselves, we got a coffee maker, and we got to go to like Walmart and stuff off base. So you got the real warrant. Yeah, so we got the real Yeah. I think that's where it was exactly if you excel, then you can get.

really cool experience. The Lakota is for anybody that doesn't know, it's just a little more advanced than the old trainer. So it has a glass cockpit, which means like digital and autopilot systems, has a full hydraulics and everything like that. So it's almost, in my opinion, it's a better training aircraft for where armaviators are going, right, because we're going into these advanced airframes that have these systems. So it

allowed us to learn how to use the systems. Still, we learned how to fly, right, We still like were they turned off the systems so you learned how to fly. But but yeah, it was a good It was an easier transition because of that to the black Hawk.

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to go into the next class. So I didn't take paternity leave, and I was just going, going, going, And my wife is just God bless her, She's just dealing with everything right while I'm just trying to succeed in flight school. And looking back on it now, I can see why it happened, right, because I was just stressing myself out to the max. But one day in class, we were just learning about the black Hawk engine, nothing crazy, and I just got hit with this random, suicidal thought

and came out of nowhere. And it was the problem for me was that I wasn't able to just be like, huh, that's weird, right and let it go. I like obsessed over it, like I was like, why the hell did this happen? I've never been through this. I don't know how to react to it and how the hell do I fix this? Right? And that just reinforce this like endless thought, you know, and obviously I didn't know it. That's probably like you doubled down on how hard you're

working exactly. Yeah. So and that's that's a good point because it lasted for a long time, Like it lasted for a good five years, and I kept trying to just succeed my way out of it, right, you know, which I think is a blessing, you know, because because I didn't, you know, I didn't take my life and I didn't get to that point because I did have a purpose. But at the same time, like I also didn't give myself the space to like actually figure out what was going on. So you weren't seeking out any

like formal mental health treatment at this time. So I did one time. So there was one day where I was leaving leaving class from flight school and driving home and I was I was scared to go home because of you know, I was just scared.

It's it's going to be like this forever and and and you.

I have to go talk to somebody. So I went to the chaplain, told him what was going on, kind of poured my heart out to him, and he took me to Behavioral Health while I'm in flight school at Fort Rutger. So, yeah, you were scared, right, I was terrified. I didn't want to go to behavior right.

lie on it? So I didn't have to, fortunately, because the questionnaire was like there's a couple of questions. It was like, do you have thoughts of suicide? Yes? Like do you have thoughts of harming others? No? Do you have a plan to do it? No? Because I didn't really right, but I didn't wasn't like I'm gonna go do this right, And then do you want to do it was another example of the question and I was like, no, you know, I don't want this. That's just happening to me.

I wouldn't be talking. Yeah, exactly. So so I filled that out and then the lady takes me back in the room and I kid, you know, she just has the clipboard that I filled out, and she just reads it to me, just reads my answers, and at the end of it, her synopsis was, well, I think this is something temporary that you're going through, so I'm going to let you continue training, basically kind of the comeback if you need us right well, and I was like,

thank god, though too right, it's a blessing in disguise, But at the time, I was like, are you freaking kidding? Like this was a cry for help, right, and you're just going to throw me out to the wolves. So that kind of like solidified that, like, all right, I'm not going to behavior a hole, like I am freaking fixing this on that and I'm not definitely not going to chat. So that solidified. Yeah, right, I know, dude, like that was supposed to be the same. Yeah, exactly,

so me and God right exactly. Yeah, Honestly, I was hoping the chaplain would just be like, come see me once a week.

to get you. A lot of them will do the right thing and get you the help you need. But historically, yeah, there are guys that totally.

worst place in North yeahplace ever just purgatory. But I just remember distinctly remember there being this like there was like a quad, right, like an open quad, and then there was a balcony or whatever you want to call it, a railing, and there were soldiers up there that were pulled from training and had their shoelaces taken away because they were suicidal, and the drill sergeants talked shit about them, right, like if you fuck up, you're gonna end up like them.

And that's that's the day that everybody learned, like, all right, if you have health problems, you don't talk right, like, you keep your mouth shut and you just freaking drive on.

which is also a messed up. I told her, hey, babe, I need you to go in our safe, take apart my gun and hide the components from me. That's how she found out because I was just I couldn't go to bed with my gun right there available, So that's how she initially found out. And then I think this was a couple weeks later when I went to the chaplain. That's when she came, and she was pissed because we

hadn't talked about it since then. It was just kind of one of those things that I don't think she knew how to deal with it right, and then obviously I didn't know how to deal with it. So yeah, she was mad. She was mad one because she knew the repercression, she knew what could happen. And she was also mad that I even had to go to be because she like she knew that I went to the chaplain first, so she was mad about that aspect too,

that I got forced to go there. So so it's twofold. Yeah, So what what happened the next day at work at cool I can't even remember to be honest, it was a blur. But but did they do me say anything to you? No, No, nothing happened.

for your career. So it was good, but it was very much not big boy rules like I expected. Kind of, like I said, the warrant officers in aviation end up being kind of the the people that do all the details and stuff because the crew chiefs, they enlisted guys are busy like maintaining the aircraft so that all falls in the warrant officers the right yeah, or they're doing

flight schedules, you know what I mean. So it was like, so the warrant officers, one dude will be in charge of like I was the goggle custodian, so I was in charge of inventorying, maintaining that all the MVG's one guy will be the supply sergeant for the company, like as a warrant officer and still having to fly. So there's a lot of like extra duties they have to do. So I think the the short answer is I wasn't happy with my choice to go aviation initially and even

through Afghanistan, Like I just wasn't happy with it. The long answer was like, at the same time, it's cool. It's still cool, like playing helicopters and progressing through that and stuff like that.

to whatever is. But it can come from anywhere at any time, Yeah, for sure. And it's a testament to that.

shows like that you can mask it. And it's it's fairly easy to mask it, to be honest, Like you

just kind of stuff it down and keep going and deal with it on your own. That's kind of why I want to say that is because like there's a lot of people out there that are very high performing and they fall into this trap and real common with the soft guys, Like like one friend of mine used to say, you know it's being functionally fucked up. Yeah, you know that It's true your high performing, but your internal world is just total turmoil.

to it. But the weird thing is there was no like slow lead up, right, Like, it wasn't like I was just like, ah, life sucks, you know, it's just like boom, dude, they field and told the same story. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, So that that was the most bizarre thing because I did not I had never dealt with anything before, you know, like that, so I had no idea.

tolerable for her. Honestly, I probably had a worse time than she did during that nine months because I was still dealing with the crap. So you were a black Hawk guy, black Hawk pilot. What was the Afghanistan deployment like very frustrating?

Whether it was day or night, it didn't matter it was And when we did get a mission that was supporting, like an SF team or something, the senior guys would take it and none of the junior guys got to go on it. So it was one of those things where I was like cool, Like how am I going

to learn if I don't get the chance. So by the end of that deployment, apparently I had a thing with ended of deployments and changing careers, but I dropped my one sixtieth packet because I was like, I am getting out of the army or I'm going to the one sixtieth Like I didn't sign up to be a pilot to go fly right in land driver. Yeah, Like

that's not what I wanted to do. So at the end of that deployment, I finally that was the blessing of the deployment though, is I got a lot of hours, so I got I went far ahead of my peers, like so in the matter of a year, I was able to drop my one sixtieth packet, which they do have minimum requirements for hours, so it's five hundred hours. Five hundred hours and piloting command, so you have to be a piloting command and have five hundred flight hours

at least when I assessed, that's what it was. So I hit that at probably the month seventh mark of my deployment, and I was I dropped it right away, got my letters, wreck and everything, and then by the end of that deployment, I had an invitation to go assess, so I got back in June twenty eighteen and then August I assessed, So it was like it was perfect because I was in nine month deployment shape, you know, going into assessments and what was assessment like for you?

It was definitely hard, mostly because I was still dealing with this crap, so I was at this point it was I was having these like physical Dizzey spells, So the depression had morphed into these Dizzey spells, which I didn't know what they were at the time, but they're panic attacks, which I didn't know, so I was dealing with that. So that part was tough. And then assessment is one of those things where it's meant for you to feel like you're failing the whole time, so you don't.

I don't think anybody goes to it and it's like, yeah, I crush that right right, So but it was it was also at the same time, as hard as it was, it was a good insight into the regiment and into how professional and next level they are, because I, to be honest, I was feeling pretty confident in my ability to fly and my ability to brief and plan because I had just come off the deployment and a lot of like repetition, and I get to the assessment and you have to put together brief and stuff, and I

got torn apart in that brief, like just annihilated, and so many questions that they asked me I just had no answer for. I didn't even know what they were talking about some of the times, and that was just kind of like, Okay, this is the big league, so like this is where I want to be type of thing. So so yeah, it specially it was definitely hard, more mentally and just you're just sleep deprived and having to do a bunch of things, so more mentally challenging than physically.

The physical stuff was. It wasn't bad. It was like

pet tests and stuff like that. So I feel like you should. Were you surprised to learn that you survived that panel? That board? Have you heard about that? Yeah? So so the one sixtieth you're talking about the end of assessment? Yeah, yeah, so the one sixtieth board at the end of assessment. This is uh, I can't give too much away, but what I've heard and what I know now is that if you crush the assessment, they're going to be dicks to you, like they're just going

to tear you apart and zere you react. Right, It's kind of their last view. It's kind of their last view of like, all right, let's tear him down and let's see what he does. And so I get through with my board and I was shaking the whole time. Actually, an interesting point is you have to talk to the site during one point in assessment, and I was still hiding everything, and during my assessment, I was like shaking and he called me out on my board and he said,

you look extremely anxious right now. And I've played it off. And I was like, I mean, I am, sir, this is a lot of pressure, you know what I mean, Like I played it off, but like at the same time, I was like, shit, he sees right through me, you know. So I leave the board. It's like I think it was an hour long board. I leave it. I go in this waiting room. It seems like forever they you know, it's where they you know, get their counsel together and say whether you made it or not. And I come

back report back to the room. And when I walk in there's a paper sign handwritten it said no go. I was like, you know, like all his freaking work. So I walk in and stand at attention and the president of the board I think it was the DCO. So it's not the regim medical commander but the guy below him, and he was like, mister Kelly, like, I appreciate you coming. You know, you put your good, good foot forward. We want you to go back to your unit and then come back here in grape Tune in January.

And I was like wait a second, Like I mean I passed you know, and like then everybody started clapping and stuff, So yeah, I know, I was like, yeah, yeah, roller coaster. Can you imagine somebody who like spasses out at that moment.

stain of like, you know, two deployments. I don't even have a CIB or a or a cab for that matter, like you know, like, so yeah, I definitely had that. It was like because it was one of those things where you always wonder, right like sure, like even though I know I would have done the job and I would have it's not like I would have ran away.

was told I was going to go be a DAP pilot. Yeah, So I was pumped about it, and I made the fatal mistake and bought a house in Fort Campbell and found out about I think a month prior to reporting that I was going to third Battalion and not flying DAPs. So I was going to Savannah, Savannah, back to Savannah. So we had to make the kind of decision of like, all right, we'll just rent out the house if it,

you know, it doesn't appreciate value or whatever. So I show up to greenp Tune and the first part of Green Tune is Officer greenp Tunes. So that's when you're doing like the the kind of soft version of basic training, if you will, right like they're they're teaching you, which is actually good, Like it was actually even being a former SF guy, it was still good because I got

a lot of reinforcement. Was just finally though the warrant world that you thought, yes, there was, yes, this very professional, very much so. Yeah, and the enlisted guys, it's a different story. The enlisted greenp tune. That's they're getting smoked and they're getting kind of indoctrinated. But that's also a lot of them are like straight from basic training, are so rightly so yeah, but it did feel good to be on the other side for a while, right, So, yeah,

we got the big boy rules got to do. It was a lot of like medical training, shooting, some landing av things like that. Nothing crazy, But then you move into your b NAB, which is basic navigation, and that's where you learn to navigate in there without any instruments literally a map, a map and a stopwatch and you're flying off way points. Yeah, it was plus minus thirty.

It was so hard. Yeah, you but the cool thing is you do I think you do nine missions total and it's this is a three week period where you're you're ingrained in it, like you're sixteen hour days every single day. But missions i'd say one through three like nobody finds their target and nobody's on time, you know.

But then by mission four and five, like you start finding it and you start getting on time, and it's pretty awesome to see like what you can do right with that training because you have to adjust for wins and all this stuff and that's all in a little bird. So you're flying a little bird and literally just using a finger light on your map and like, all right, I hope that's that intersection, you know, and like, yeah, it's it's pretty cool. Yeah, it's pretty cool to to

see it all come together. And then by mission nine, like yeah, everybody's sitting in their target.

that found my target. I wasn't on time, but I found it and I was so proud of myself. And then of course the cadre or the my assessment pilot was like you suck. You didn't you know? You were out of time, out of standard, you know, And I'm just like, come on, man, I've heard nobody finds their even if you would have been on time, I know something.

Yeah sure, but but yeah, So that's been at and then after that you go into your airframe, so you go into I went into the sixty course and that was incredible.

really cool. Yeah, it's really cool. And one of the cooler parts of that course too is you're being taught by like one sixtieth legends, like these guys are they're just contractors now, you know, and they're insanely like relaxed but also insanely just competent good at what they do. Like those guys are just ye phenomenal pilots.

doing jomps blah blah blah. And then you think of the guys who like hop up on rails and ride down rails and bunny hop on you know, like between like pillars and stuff like that, and it's like, what what the one sixtieth pilots are capable of doing on any airframe? Yeah, but are capable of doing is insane? It's incredible. Yeah, it's incredible.

I'm just like dangered. I wouldn't do that, you know. Yeah. So it's pretty cool to see though, and it's cool to be a part of really cool to be a part of, and then you get deployed to Iraq. Yeah with the unit. Yeah, so this was the infamous COVID deployment. So we went out there and it was supposed to be a sixty day deployment and then the world shut down and we got to enjoy it for another sixty days.

So it ended up doubling, which doesn't seem long, but when you're in the one sixty at the op tempo is insane, Like it's every day, twelve hour days, you know, so you're not like it's not like a nine month deployment where you're like five days on, one day off or whatever it is. You know, it's it's balls of the wall every single day and you're going hard. So yeah, it ended up being a yeah, a four month deployment.

I don't know how much I can even get into it about there, like the specifics of that, But did you finally feel like that's what I was going to say, That's what I was going to say.

train as we fight, and like on deployments, we do the job that we're supposed to do, you know what I mean, Like we do the mission that we're designed to do. We're not just like, oh yeah, maybe we'll do that once an once in a while. Is there any that you can kind of like even around about sort of way, Yeah, yeah, so I can talk about one where I'm not gonna like say locations or anything.

But we took this is this is kind of a funny story in a way because I don't have like I don't have any like crazy like you know, yeah, like I don't have any like valor worthy stories, you know. But one funny story is so we were the dirty Bird since it was COVID, so we had to figure out, like, all right, if we take someone off target, like what

are we doing with them? You know? So what we figured out or what we decided, I didn't just the higher ups decided that was we're gonna have one aircraft dedicated to any detainees or anybody would take off target and they're gonna be the dirty bird. So we take someone off target and this poor guy had to be like wrapped in a body bag, COVID swabed and all this stuff, and fly back like three hours I think two and a half hours maybe in a black Hawk, just pitch black right just on the ground in a

body bag, literally like no idea, what's going on. And then when we landed we had to Our decontamination plan was literally like going a connex that they put heat lamps in, stripped down and rinse off and then throw on whatever, just normal clothes and leave our uniform in there for twenty four hours. So that was like our decon plan. And while everything was good, but like that's that's like the most It's just dumb. Yeah, it's just dumb. Like looking back on I'm like, why did we do

any of that? You know, but like nobody knew what to do. That was just like the answer for it. But other than that, man, I don't have any like crazy stories, like we did our job and nothing fortunately, nothing really went went sideways. Yeah, except there was one mission that this is another missing out opportunity. So there were valor awards on this mission, and our aircraft was broken so we didn't go. So four other aircraft go on this mission, and it was like a q r

F in the mountains and like right on the exert. Yeah. It was actually I don't remember the specifics, but it was like on a mountain side, yeah, and they had to go do some high hovers and faster people and actually I think repel people out was what it was. Yeah. So it was pretty intense, like hovering at like a high hover, you know, getting shot at, repelling people out.

was progressing towards that during the deployment in Iraq. The good part about the COVID problem was that we did have like it got shut down for it, so weren't doing anything for a little bit, So there was some training opportunities, so I got to actually like lead some missions training missions right, but I got to plan, brief and execute all those and get those done, which were helped me kind of progress towards that FMQ. But then in.

doesn't happen to everybody. So I ended up having to get knee surgery that January, and that was a nine month like recovery time, so blessing and a curse.

I'm not flying, Let's try to figure this out. So what that leads to, though, this is a really long story, so interrupt me if it's like that.

right because like the zone. Yeah, so I really, I mean, I don't know, but that's what I attributed to because like that would have been a different story if I was just a total focus exactly, and you're like task, So your mind's just but it's.

it if you will, you know. I was like, hey, I don't know what's going on. I'm just yeah, I'm just having these Disney spells. I don't really know how to explain it. So that's exactly what they did. They sent me to E and T, got my ears checked out. That was all fine. So then to spare you the long details, we do head to toe tests right to rule out physiological things. But one of those tests was

a sleep study. So I go for a sleep study with a civilian doctor in Savannah that I got referred to, and after that sleep study, I got diagnosed with narcolepsy as a pilot, right. So yeah, so I was like, okay, like one that might answer these Disney spells. Maybe I'm like falling asleep having micro naps right and causing my body to be like, yeah, you know you were you

were falling over. I don't know. So there was a sense of relief in a weird way because of that, right, Like I was like, finally I have an answer for what's going on. But then the Army, so my flight doc is like, okay, dude, like you can either reclass or you get out of the Army, like you can't fly with narcole ems where this has never been like you never happened, You never nod like that never happened.

I will say I will say that like during that anxiety period, like when I would drive home at like three pm, four pm, I was exhausted and having like a lot of daytime sleepiness. But I that's also because I was so anxious all the time, and I was like my body was working overdrive, right, So so in my mind the diagnosis was like okay, like it kind of makes sense, and I kind of talked myself into

it making sense. Right, So my flight doc puts in a med board and they decline it because the sleep study wasn't done by the Army, of course, So I'm like all right, sweet, So so now I'm just grounded still. And by this time, so this was the end of that year. By this time, I knew was recovered, so I wasn't like so I kind of felt like a back of ass because I was like, you know, I'm grounded, but I could fly if I needed to, So do

the Army sleep study. I have to go to Fort Gordon and do all that, and the results came back and they say, you have no diagnosable criteria for narcolepsy, freaking kidding me. So you're back on flight status. No, because they permanently grounded me when I got diagnosed with narcolepsy the first time. Rutgers like, Okay, we'll accept this diagnosed right permanent army. But the army won't let you get out of the army doesn't Yeah, they don't let

that money exactly. So now I'm in this like even worse purgatory of like I don't have a diagnosis, but I can't fly because you're still a diagnosis. Yeah, and I'm still in the unit. So I am very grateful that I was in the one sixtieth because my command was incredible throughout all this, like they were they had my back, right, and they actually sent me to the safety course at Rutger of the ash safety course so

that I could continue contributing to the unit. So even though I was implying, I ended up being basically the company safety officer, which is like It's honestly pretty cool because you get to like, you get to be pretty autonomous. And I still got to go on like TDY trips with the company, so I was actively participating without flying,

which was like a halfway point, I guess. But then this leads to me eventually the flight doc eventually saying, all right, let's have you talked to the psychologist, you know, and just see, like see if there's anything there, right, because we've ruled everything else out, we don't really have an answer. And after probably two months of talking to her, she's like, all right, we're gonna get you to the psychiatrist and we're going to try to treat you for

anxiety and kind of see what happens. And at this point I didn't care because I hadn't know. There was no consequences at that point. So I do that and I get on I don't remember the first one, whatever lexapro or something like that, get on pills, and the symptoms started to improve, like not dramatically at first, but enough to be like, okay, like I think there's something here, right, and it didn't. There We went through maybe six different cocktails and drugs.

back or what. But so, yeah, so I get to that point and it's working, and we finally get through a bunch of different medications because everyone has side effects of course that I hated, and we got to effects her and literally, I'm not kidding, like ninety five for some of the symptoms went away like it was like night and day, and it became it became to the point where they were still happening, but they were so situational that I could pinpoint exactly to what was happening

and when they were happening. And once I told the psychologist that like, hey, it's happening when I'm in formation, right, or it's happening when I have to give a breef, or it's happening like when I go to church, or when I'm in like a big stadium. She read the symptoms of panic disorder and I was like freaking nailed it, you know, like I didn't want to accept it, right, but then I did. And I'm not gonna lie as cheesy as it is, like that's when I started actually

healing and getting better. Was when I was like, Okay, this is it, you know, like, this is actually what's happening to me. Because I did not want mental health diagnosis. What was the process of the healing for it? Was it just the realization or were there other steps that you started taking with that. Yeah, So, contrary to most people's opinion, I will say the medication was the thing that gave me the space to heal. I know there's a lot of like hate on it medication for some reason,

but it did give me the space to heal. Like so it allowed me to, like I said, like identify the problem and actually pinpoint what's happening instead of this it just being like this all day, you know, kind of crazy anxiety life, I guess.

How do we avoid this happening in the future, and how can we like make sure you know, you're you have the tools so that if it does happen again or you start to see signs that you can get yourself out of it.

tried those things and they didn't work. Okay, So that's where I say like the meds were important because when you're so deep in it, like if you just go meditate and think that's going to fix everything, like good luck, you know, at least in my situation, it was not attack. Yeah, exactly right. Yeah, And when I tried the breathing exercises,

that's what it did. Yeah, Like I would try like box breathing and all that stuff, right, and everybody's like I watched YouTube videos, you know, and everybody's like, this is how you carr anxiety, right, if you're having a panic attack, just do this, And I would do it, and I'm like that's bullshit, Like that didn't do anything. That just made me think about my anxiety more and

be more pissed off. So yeah, I mean, but the irony of that is like now those tools work, Like now that I'm out of that and now that I'm off meds, Like, now those tools work because I have a clear enough.

get back in the cockpit still. But it did get to the point where she was like, well, really me, I made the decision to get medically retired. So I got to the point where I was like, these I need to be on these meds. And I couldn't fly while I was on the meds. So well, you can, but it's a pain of the ass. And I was I was just at the point where I was like I'm freaking done, Like I've gone, I've put myself through so much shit, Like I just need to be done

and get out. So that last year was me basically trying getting medically retired. So it was about a year. But the process to your question was it was a lot of CBT. It was a lot of It was a lot of digging into like the why of like everything kind of which like it's a big not right, yeah, yeah, like why are you? Like what do you want to do as a dad? What do you want to do?

His husband? Like? It was a lot more like purpose finding, which was weird because I wasn't expecting that, but yeah, now that I look back on it, that's kind of what it was, was like why are you doing all of this? Why are you doing anything?

is when I like talked about those dizzey spells, nobody even brought up anxiety being an option, you know, like it seems kind of we literally did head to toe tests of everything else and anxiety never came up, and it didn't it wasn't to the point where we ruled everything out. So that was an interesting thing because I've talked to multiple people since I've like actually spoken about this who are like, dude, I've had the same dizzy spells almost, like, how is this not like a common

knowledge from doctors? You know?

you know, we're like personal finance stuff. So when I found out I was getting medically retires, is about it. I had about a year actual runway before I got out,

which was a blessing. That's when I was like, all right, I'm going to go be a financial planner, and I started doing all my coursework and getting all my certifications, so that literally when I got out of the Army, I had my certify Financial Planner exam done and I was just ready to kind of hit the ground running, and I networked my way through LinkedIn, so people transitioning

out there. One of the best things that I ever did was actually like reach out to people on LinkedIn, which went against everything I believed as a soft guy, right, no social media, but I got the balls to like actually message people that were on LinkedIn doing what I wanted to do, and we were looking at Charlotte. Yeah, and fortunately one of the guys that I messaged was like, Hey, I started a firm and we need advisors. Do you want to come work for us? And I was like, hell, yeah,

that's amazing. So right off the bat, I was able to land a job in Charlotte and kind of it wasn't like a salary job though, so it was he would chill. It was what you kill. Yeah. It was basically like you start with nothing, you know, have clients, so you got to build it. It was kind of big with when you've got a family. Yeah, Luckily I

did have like the military benefits. They weren't like full paycheck, right, they wouldn't like cover all my expenses, but I did have like the disability paycheck and stuff like that to kind of bridge the gap. And then some savings built up. But yeah, and then after about a year working for that firm, I met another guy in Charlotte who was starting his own firm and he said, Hey, do you want to come partner with me at this firm?

I'm niched in too. It's fun. And how did this book project come about? Stigma, which is going to be out in October twenty First, good question. So when I was getting out, I none of my peers knew why I was getting out. They all I stuck with the narcolepsi diagnosis the entire time because that was the easy button, right, that was the non stigma button, right of like grounded for it, and I was grounded for it, right, So I did get diagnosed with it, you know, and that's

what I felt. I was like, Okay, like I can tell people this because that doesn't mean there's something wrong with my head. Right, So all of that happened to me, all of these freaking five plus years of just grunting it out right and dealing with this and suffering through that.

Once I finally got out and told I think I told my brother about it first and he was still in and he started crying and he was like, and he's not like he's a tough dude, you know, like he could kick my ass, to be honest, and he's my little brother. So that's saying a lot for me to admit that, but he started crying and I was like the hell, you know, and he's like, dude, why didn't you tell me? You know? I'm like I couldn't. Man,

how am I Like? I couldn't tell anybody? Right? He's like that's a problem, and I'm like, yeah, it is, dude, I know, but I just didn't feel like I could so, like I couldn't even tell my own brother, you know who I'm like closest with more than anybody in the world. I was like, this is this is a cultural problem that like needs to be talked about. So that's kind of where I was like, screwt, I'm gonna talk about it and I'm gonna just lay it all out there

and see what happens. Like it was terrifying initially the first time I talked about it. I was like, dude, I have no idea how people are going to react to this, you know, like, yeah, because those stigmas were still there, Like is my reputation going to be gone if I mentioned this? You know? But the surprisingly, man, it's been the opposite, and I, yeah.

the most courageous thing I did was talk about it. Yeah, as ironic as that is, you know, and as scary as it was, Like it it took balls to speak up about it, and like it's been super rewarding, Yeah, and my hope is that more people will come to that realization, you know that like dude, I was a zombie for six years of my life, you know, like I was not a present dad or husband, Like yeah, just sucks, you know. And so what's the book going

to be about. It's your story, so it's it's going to be my story, but it's also going to be deconstructing some of those stigmas and saying showing why they're why. Some of them do have validity, right, because there are, at least in my situation as a pilot, there were repercussions for going on medication or doing that right, So

there are some that have validity. But the primary objective with it is one to deconstruct the stigma and then two to show people that you can be a freaking stud and deal with this stuff and it's okay, right, it doesn't make you like less of a man or

anything like that. So those are the big objectives, and then hopefully my my big overaarching mission is too and this is a really big mission, but to ultimately lower the suicide rate because like you've loved, I'm sure you guys have both lost friends to it, and I have two and they were studs, the people that I can think of literally off the top of my head, and I know they were dealing with some of this, and I know they were dealing with just the fear of

what if I expose this right, And they got to the point where it was like it was easier for them to do it then to tell somebody about it, you know, which sucks, but yeah, that's the reality. So that's my overall like million you know mile mission is to go lower those stats.

geared towards non medicinal ways to treat mental health. So I think, like all those modalities that like Andrew Huberman talks about, that's what it's focused on. It's going to be absolutely free to veterans and active duty So it's our health Foundation A good question, yeah, r K Health Foundation. Yeah.

So it's going to be a completely stigma free place, right, Like somebody can just show up there and say, hey, like I want to go do this modality, right, and they don't have to say like because I'm depressed or because I'm dealing with this, right, it can just be like, hey, I want to get better at this or whatever, you know.

So it's taking all that brain science and brain health that Hebreman's been spearheading and really putting the awareness out and putting them all together in one facility for active duty and veterans, right, it'll be really cool. Yeah, it's still in the startup phase, so we don't have the facilities. We need three hundred k four facilities to actually be fully funded, and the first one is going to be rolled out at Fort Campbell's. So yeah, that's awesome, pumped about it.

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