Delta Force Operator | Brent Tucker | Ep. 235

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welcome to episode two hundred and thirty five of The Team House. I'm Jack Murphy, I'm a is it over here? Oh sorry, guys, my phone was on apologies. So episode two hundred and thirty five of the Team House. We're here with our guest tonight, Brent Tucker. I'm Jack Murphy here with David Park. First thing, I just want to tell you guys real quick about sponsor of tonight's show, Dark State. If you guys are a fan of Tom Clancy or Jack Carr or Vince Flynn, which I know

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So please head to Audible or Kindle and check it out. Now you can get your copy of Dark State, book one in the Jason Trapp series. So with that said, Brent, again, thank you for being on the show tonight. Really appreciate you joining us on a Friday evening. Absolutely, thanks for having me. I truly do appreciate it so again because I got a little distract in the beginning. Brent is a twenty year veteran of Army

Special Operations. He served in twentieth Special Forces Group and then he served in Delta Force, deploying to Afghanistan, Iraq, and Syria. Today he runs the First Responder Coffee company and he's also the co host of the Anti Hero podcast. We're really happy to have you here today, Brent, And uh, you know, I'll kind of started off from the top asking the same

question I ask all of our guests about their origin story. If you could tell us a little bit about where you grew up, what your upbringing was like, and sort of how that took you on a path towards the military. Yeah, I grew up in a small town in Florida, Sanford, Florida, working in a family business. We owned Tucker's Farm and garden center that my grandfather started. That was I was one of the few people who didn't want to leave my small town. But I just wanted to work in

the family business. Like my path in life was was already set, and I was more than happy to go down that path. I definitely wasn't a an adrenaline junkie as a kid. I was a pretty quiet kid, So definitely not someone you would have you would have pegged for for anything in the special operations realm or even leaving town at any point. So so how did that happen? I mean, if you were on this track of like going on taking over the family business. Yeah, so the September eleventh happened.

I mean I had it's it's crazy September tenth. September tenth, I'm twenty years old, you know, still chugging down that that same path that I was on as a as a little kid. September eleventh happened, and uh, you know it changed. It changed my world the same way it changed a lot of people's world. I I knew I wanted to do something.

Uh. I made a decision that day that I kind of would make time and time again throughout my my military career when I when I had to come to make a big decision, which was I didn't want to live a life with regrets, you know, I didn't want to be I didn't want to be seventy years old, you know, looking back, and said, man, when I was our country got attacked, almost three thousand people died, and I felt like I should have done something, but I just played it

safe and stayed in my small town. That that, honestly is the I mean, there's the genesis right there, that that line of think and started it. I raised my hand. Uh. It took me till September twenty seventh. Actually, UH signed the paperwork and off I went the and and I only meant to uh to do is you know, a four year stint and then and come right back to to my small town. And Yeah, as the saying goes, if you want to make God laugh, tell them

your plans. I couldn't have been anymore wrong. And I continued to be wrong about my career as as it progressed. So so what did you enlist as as far as like your mos what was kind of like your plan going into the military, the one that God laughed at of course. Yeah. When when I knew nothing about the military, and I mean well next to nothing, my dad would take me to air shows. My dad wanted to be a fighter pilot so bad, I guess when he was in his late

teens. Uh, then eyesight got him and so he didn't He didn't get a chance to chase that dream. So I definitely grew up in a military friendly family. You know, we watched war mood movies. You know, my dad made us watch all the Vietnam documentaries and I loved it. So we were we were a military friendly family. But no one was talking about

joining and I had no idea what I was going to join. So a good friend of mine that I went to high school with, Jessica Butters, her dad was was all as I knew was that he was in the military. I knew nothing more than that. Come to find out, he was a CW four at a National Guard unit, a National Guard Air Defense Artillery unit out of Daytona Beach. So he was the first. He was the only person I knew. So I went to him and said, hey, you know, a country got attacked. I want to do something about it.

So I came to him. He gave me pretty good advice. He's like, hey, I'm in the National Guard. I think you should do that. You'll get a chance to fight, you'll get called up, but but you know, you don't have to go away for four years. It sounded like a good plan to me, sound like I was gonna get what I wanted, which was to deploy. And so I went to the recruiter that he recommended me to go to, and for a guy who wanted to join the military and fight, I got put in Air Defense National Guard,

which may not have seen a lot of action. So that was that was. It took me about a year to well, probably took it took it took less than a year for me to figure that out. But you know, figuring it out to one thing, but doing something about it is is another. So as soon as as soon as I got a basic in AI

T, we did get mobilized to go to the invasion of Iraq. And we sat around for like six months and Fort Bliss, and at that point we had a sister battery coming back from Afghanistan, and so I couldn't wait to talk to those guys to see what war was like. And I asked them and they did like a fourteen month deployment to Afghanistan, and I found out that it was a Patriot missile battery that you were with, Brent, sorry to interrupt, Yeah, so that would have been a part of the

unit. Me in particular, I was in short range A defense, which was Stinger missile operator so or stingled. Yeah, so shoulder fired Stinger missiles fourteen Mike, which eventually became fourteen Sierra because I had to go to the little bit longer course to do the the Avengers like that that hum Vy with the four missiles on each side of the turret. So that's a the Avenger is That's that's what I went to school for. But when those guys went

overseas for fourteen months and came back, they just guarded the gates. That's all they did. They did nothing to guard the gates, which which was my worst fear come true. I kind of eventually was slowly figuring out I don't think the Taliban has a lot of helicopters to shoot down, and I'm not sure my skill set will be utilized in the war on terror. So I asked those guys and said, hey, what like then, who was doing things, and they they told these stories that were probably a little bit

true, but a little bit embellished. They'd be like, oh, man, these special Forces guys, these Green Brays would would come on to would come to our come to our gate with blood all over their home v's and I'd have to be like, hey, sergeant, I need your IDs and they'd be like, f you just opened the gate. And so I was like, so what'd you do? It was like, well, I opened

the gate, what do you What do you expect me to do? I was like, man, and a part of me was like this guy's kind of sound like assholes, and the other party was like those guys sounded really cool. So I eventually found out about twentieth Special Forces Group, which is a National Guard group, and that started really my my, my whole first fight trying to trying to do that because we were we were mobilized at the time, getting ready to go, and that was the nail on the coffin.

I was like, I don't, I don't. I don't want to do this. I want to do that, and so it's very difficult as a National guardsman who's already mobilized. And we went through the whole mobilization process and what you know, we're supposed to be even though we didn't leave when we were supposed to, they were gonna just kind of hold us in this limbo as a mobilized unit. They could call any time. And so we sat there for months at El Paso waiting for a call that never came.

So I started fighting with my my company leadership then telling hey, I want to go to Special Forces. I want to go to National Guard, to twentieth Group. They kept saying no. They told me all sorts of lies, like well, you have to be an E five to go be a Green Beret, so you'll have to wait a few years. Yeah. I then you just talked to a few more people found out that wasn't true,

you know. I mean just twentieth Group, when in a weird way, has a lot of like with other National Guard units, has a lot of myths like surrounding it. And you're like, oh, you can't go to twentieth Group because you have to be, you know, a an active duty Special Forces guy first, and when they come out, that's how they go to twentieth Group. I mean, just all sorts of things just weren't true. I eventually found I don't know if you guys remember this. You guys

remember the AKO White Pages. Yeah, yeah, that's how I found my twentieth group recruiter. I went to the AKO White Pages and I googled twentieth Special fort Google probably went searched twenty Special Forces and I actually found a recruiter number out of Ocala, Florida, which would have been the closest one to me. So I'm still deployed or mobilized in Texas and I call him, and I still remember the guy who picked up because I ended up. He

was a support guy there and was a recruiter. He picks up the phone, Sergeant first class carry and and I was like, hey, I just want to introduce myself. My name's Private first Class Tucker and I want to be a Green Beret. And he asked me like two quick questions, like yeah, how long has been? He was like, right, first class? Where you at? I told him, He's like, how long have you been in? And I told him and he basically goes, I'll call me back in like a year and then hangs up the phone. And again

I was like, man, these guys are kind of dicks. I think maybe I'm a dick, but that's I don't know. I kind of want to, like I love that, like you're not good enough and you have to prove yourself and you know this, You've got to come and stand out in front of the door and wait, wait your turn, right yeah, I mean you know it's not this. Everyone gets a trophy mentality. I can't can't wait to welcome you, you know, I you know, I

enjoyed that. We we demobilize A few short months later, I called him right back and talk to someone else on the phone who was a little more welcoming, and told him my sob story and they said, you know what, come over here and do a uh, do a small tryout and we'll and we'll see. So I show up knowing absolutely nothing to this small tryout.

I knew they told me to get ready to ruck and do a pt test at least, and so I said, okay, And I showed up not knowing anything but knowing the Hey, like, also, I know about soldiering is like boots and uniform matters, and I'm not a Greenbory yet, so I better show up with with polished boots and a press uniform. Uh. And I did that, and I was immediately scolded for it and told to get into two pts and don't don't ever wear those around here again unless

there's some sort of award ceremony going on. And I said, okay, I like this place already. I did the did the PT test and the and the ruck, and I did very well on it. They said, hey, we want to bring you over our program and sending a selection as soon as possible. Go back and tell your unit that you want to uh, that you want to transfer over here. And that's where the real fight

kind of started. You know. They they they had already been given me a bunch of you know, slow roll in me, and now they just simply told me, nope, we're not going to send you. But like before the mobilization, we sent a couple of guys over there, they never make it. You know, I don't waste our time with the paperwork. Don't waste your time. We're just not going to send you over there. So I carried that message back to twentieth Group and the sergeant major laughed at

it and said, hold on, I'll make a phone call. They can't. It's it's I told you to do that, but it's really not up to them. So it makes a phone call. I go back to work. A couple of days later. They're like, well, you got what you want. I hope you're happy. We'll we'll see you in a couple of months when you don't make it, which was one of the best things they could have done for me, because I absolutely trained my ass off.

I couldn't stand them anymore. I did, you know, I had too much pride to get to fight that hard and then you know, have to swallow it and come back and tell them I wasn't good enough. I go to selection a few months later, I come, I come back. I think I had to turn in some gear that I still had from them. And for whatever reason, I was kind of hoping that they'd be like, hey, we're wrong about you. Good job. You're like the only guy that's ever that's ever made it. Uh. Instead they're like, well,

guess what, you haven't made it yet. You know half the guys don't make the que course, so you'll be right back. And that was the last time I saw him. And I'll tell you how petty I can be. When I retired twenty years later, after the Delta Force. A part of me wanted to drive down there and and shove my two fourteen of their face and say see, see, see what I did. But of course

I think everyone there would have been yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's how that's how I got to uh, that's how we got the twentieth group. I was unfortunate. I was unfortunate enough to be smart, which means I got to be an eighteen Echo. I put after a selection, I put down the four moss I wanted. I put Bravo, Charlie, Echo Delta. I sure as E didn't want to be a Delta. Uh. They said, congratulations, you got you got you got your top three, is what the guy told me. And I was like, what's that mean?

He goes, You're an Echo was in your top three? It was only four choices. It was it was second to last, is what it is what I viewed it as. There's two reasons I wasn't real happy about getting being an Echo because at the time they had a longer que course than Bravo and Charlie. Uh. And so at that time and in two thousand and two, everybody thinks the wars are gonna go away if you don't hurry up and get over there. So I wanted to short him a west Bravo,

we're Charlie. You know. I wanted to try to clip out of Spanish and you know, and and be in Afghanistan, and you know, eight nine, ten months, I mean, the Q course is already long enough with without without the rest of that. Again, my what I wanted never seems to work out, and I always have to just deal with what I got. So I got echo. I stayed there longer I tried. I tried to test out of Spanish. I missed it by like two questions. And uh, of course, the you know, the jokes on me.

I didn't get to miss. Maybe I missed the deployment. So instead of thirteen, maybe maybe i'd have had fourteen if if I got out of there a little quicker. But yeah, there's there's a there's a lot of war left. And and really I look back at that general ration of Q course guys, and they were good dudes. Man, I'm telling you, I couldn't be I still talked to some of those guys in the Q course

to this day. They were such good dudes, and they went on to do amazing things and really little did we know that era of Q course students was really going to see fifteen years of war after that, which which really may be the most amount of combat you know, any other generation was was going to see, and we had we had no idea what what what we were in for. Brent, real quick, sorry, real quick, We just need to shout out to our to our two other sponsors for tonight eight.

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Brent, I want to ask you a little bit about how nineteenth and twentieth group are structured because we know that the different SF groups generally have you know, are assigned an area and aligned to a particular How like, how did they choose your language? How are nineteenth and twentieth Group the guard units aligned? Yeah, at the time, a battalion aligned with the group, So third Battalion, twentieth Group aligned with seventh Special Forces Group. So I

got Spanish because our our battalion was aligned with seventh. Okay, that's yeah. The well, which which really kind of gets me into to my days with with twenty Special Forces Group. As a Green Beret, I was. I spent my whole guard time as a as a as a single guy, just being a guard bum. I just went from set of orders from school to school, to deployment to deployment, and just stayed active the whole time.

And I loved it. I absolutely loved it. As soon as I graduated the Q course, I was on a C one thirty down to down to Bolivia for UH for for a month. I had only I only got to see, you know, the different odias and the company a few times, and I saw these I saw these guys on the dive team who were just who were just better than everyone else, and we're more than happy to

prove it. And I my senior echo on my first ODA was going was going to dive school because he wanted to go to the to the dive team. And and by by the second or third time, you know, we we had done some training together. He looked at me and goes, hey, you should go to digh school too, And so as I'd love to go to dive school, he goes, yeah, it's it's easy. Just you know, raise your hand. There's always slots go to dive school.

So I'm getting ready to go down to South America. And just like he said, you know, all he had to do was say you want to go to dig school, No, put you in a slot. So I go down to South America. I start training for die school before South America. As soon as I get into South America, I get an email back to AKO again. I get an AKO email saying that funding fell through and don't worry about don't worry about dive school. And so I said, okay.

So the next three weeks I went on a very different training regime and partying my ASSI and had a great time. You know, we trained hard, we partied hard, it was a great first first experience. In fact, that team I went down there with had you know, their their Bravo on their team. I'm you know, went to the unit before me, their eighteen Delta on the team went to the unit as a as a medic before me. It was it was a stacked team of great dudes that were

seasoned guys. You know, they had all they had all been to Afghanistan already and multiple trips and they'd all have been on the team for like five, six, seven years. So it was a great, great first trip learning I was the only echo on the team, so uh, you know, it was a great experience as a new guy to have all the commo

to fall on me. It was a real cool experience going to hotels and setting up a you know satcom you know PSC five and you know, shooting out reports you know from a hotel room in different cities in Bolivia, just kind of a in civilian clothes as as you're traveling around. So it just just you know, definitely a cool experience. And that part It's a couple of days before die school is supposed to start and I'm out of roadside cafe

in Bolivia and I get an email. It's an a tar Is notification saying, uh, giving me, you know, details of checking into die school. So I went to the I went to the warrant officer on the team and I said, hey, this is probably nothing, but I did get this a Tar's notification. And he's like, well, if you have an a TAR slot, you're you're going if you need to get on a plane right now and go to Key West. I was both excited to hear that and also, you know, it like a getting punched in the gut,

going I, I'm not ready for this. Let's hope, you know. Yeah, but there's a lot of things you can do when you're twenty four that that you can't do later added life. So I, you know, not to make these stories long, but you know, just kind of you

know. I get in a a a one way rental car and we drive, like me and one other guy that was going to go back with me drive like nine hours straight and there's these massive unrest going on because of the elections just happened, and no one's happy with the election, and there's roadblocks everywhere. We don't our Spanish actually wasn't too bad, but it wasn't enough to be by ourselves negotiating roadblocks. We just randomly gave people money that you

know. I just kept on giving them money until they seemed to be less angry with us, and they let us go. We get to the airport and we landed on a military base dirt runway in the middle of the night, unloaded and left. So I didn't get my passport stamped when I get to the When I get to the airport, we're trying to load up, and the guy was like, Hey, something's weird. You don't have a

stamp on your passport. How did you get in the country? And I remember the last thing Warren Officer told me was, Hey, if you get in any trouble, here's here's the here's the here's the number to the embassy. Called this guy, he's our fixer, and so I didn't give him an answer about how we got in here. I just said, hey, you should probably call this guy first. And the guy told me, he goes, I don't care who that guy is. How did you get in

on our country? And you can go ahead and start looking at other flights because you're not getting on this one. And I was like, you know, okay that that sucks, but you know, call this guy. He walks away. Thirty seconds later, he looks at me with disgust. He just takes my passport and he stamps it and he says, get out of here. To this day, I don't know who that guy was. I don't know what he told him, but you know, just that it was.

At the end of it, it was a very cool, non combat first experience of of being a Green Beret and just you know, doing things that really is really unique to to Green Rays. I end up, I get a I fly right to Miami and check into Digh School and proceed to have the worst six weeks of my life. Pull. The week was absolutely horrible. Like you know, I quit doing breath holds. I was not ready for it. I was I got dragged out of the pool you know,

almost every day and asked why why I sucked so much? And I just I remember calling my dad at one point and saying, hey, Dad, we have you know, the Q course has been a lot, you know, I just went on a trip down south. Now I'm in now, I'm in Diegh School. It's just it's really tough right now. I think I think I just need to come home for a little bit. And and but my dad is not the the uh, the guy to to cry

on his shoulders. He's just a very hard man. But but I also never complained to my dad about anything, So I think my dad knew if I was calling him to tell him things were pretty tough right now, he just said, dude, you gotta do so. And I said, okay, I'll I'll call you tomorrow and let you know. And every day I showed up to the pool and had to fake motivation like I wanted to be there when it was everything I didn't want to do. And I never called

my dad back and told him that I wasn't coming or was coming. My dad said he figured that when I didn't call back, he knew. And again, my dad's just a hardcore guy, so stock he's gonna call me and ask what's wrong. That was just the odd random conversation we had. It was a fleeting moment of weakness. I'll come back to that story here in a little bit, because I tell him myself later in my career saying, hey, this is the hardest thing I've ever done. And I'll tell

you the one particular like time. It was like the end of pool week and you're just you know, you're just physically exhausted. And they they put us in and again, and part of it was why it was so hard. It's because I wasn't ready for it. So I mean, I'm not saying it would have been easy otherwise, but I definitely didn't help myself out. They put us in the pool and they're gonna have us do these sprints. And they said hey, and they told us her, say, bring

bring two shirts to the pool this day. And so at the very end of the day they they said, hey, get get one shirt, wet, take your take your brown shirt off, put them in both your hands, and that's what you're gonna swim in to get to the other side of the pool, these two soggy shirts. And they said pays to be a winner. First one to the other side of the pool gets to get out. And so everyone, you know, swam as hard as they could to get to the side of the pool. And they didn't let anyone of the

pool. They're like, hey, but that's not this round. They send us back and forth, back and forth, like fifteen times. No one gets out of the pool, and it sounds dramatic, but it's just true. Like guys are getting fished out of the pool because you know, they're they're they're cramping up and they're giving it. They're all and they're just And I remember thinking, you know, looking to the guy beside me on the gunnal and we didn't say it, but we both, you know, looked

at each other just you know, said the sucks. You know that that that look at another that empty look at another guy's eyes. But he's he's just giving it as all. Yea, And yeah, we've all we've all been there. And I remember thinking to myself, I got one more in me, and if if they don't get us out of the pool, I'm quitting because I'll end up at the bottom of this pool if they send me again. So they send us again, I get to the other side of

the pool and I'm talking. I'm I'm coaxing myself up. You know, well, this is it's time. It's time to quit. Time to quit it. And me and that guy looked at each other one more time and we both kind of shake our heads like this sucks, and and he goes, eff it, I quit and gets out of the pool. And I remember looking at him getting on the pool and thinking, you quitter. I can't believe it's wrong with you know that I was just as big as if he want to beat me to it, I probably I probably wouldn't quit.

And uh, just like do you remember watching him quit just disgusted me? And Uh, I stayed in the pool. We went back and forth or six or seven times. But I guess maybe he left me some of his energy on on on the way out. Super glad I got die school out out of the way early in my career. Uh, like an insert joke here, but like like bost divers, I'm a proud diver and really uh really proud of that accomplishment. The and it got me to work on the

best oder I ever worked with the best group of guys. Honestly, I ended up having one of my best deployments in my military was a twentieth group deployment with that dive team run on the commandos that of Afghanistan were just, you know, just want a group of really good friends deployed together, have

the same mindset and just wanted to get after it. To this day, one of my one of my one of my best experiences in the military and at Die School is what it kind of afforded me, that that possibility. You know, it's interesting because I want to paint sort of the picture for people who may not understand earlier when you're talking about going to die School or

you know, the chance to go to Combat Diver school. You know, you said the senior echo said, they're always bullets available, there are always thoughts open. And the reason for that is because Combat Diver is such a notoriously hard school that people don't sign up for it in general. Like it is. It's one of those schools that somebody has to generally be really motivated to go to because it is such like a dick driver. I don't know if I'd have gone back, I don't know. I mean, I mean,

I mean, I thankful I didn't have to make that decision. I'd like to think that with a little bit of rest and you know, I'd have got back on there. I was really lucky in uh in my career to have not have recycled to not We'll get to a little bit. There's one thing I recycled, but but SF didn't didn't hand that to me. And and Die School with it. I'm not saying the Q course was easy by no means with the Q course easy. The Q course had really tough

days in it. Uh but just for just an absolute smoke session day in day out, you know, running red line and the whole time, Diegh School with added doubt was the hardest military school I went to. Yeah, so talk to us about that, that deployment that it led you into with the Candac commandos. Oh yeah, so we I had I had I'd been selected, uh for for the unit. Actually, uh, I got selected and I told him to, Hey, we're on the verge of a of

another deployment and I want to go back to this. Uh well, I should say my second time at selection, I get selected and and we're going, uh, I want to do this this deployment with with with with our guys, this one last two are off you will And I told him that, and and they they were like, absolutely, unit's not going anywhere. Go you know, go go go fire with your guys. I think they

respected that. So I go to So that was really cool in a weird way, kind of being a made man and and twentieth group as a guy who already selected to go to the unit and it it was such a great mission. So we didn't have any air assets dedicated to us, you know, we didn't, but we got a lot of aviation assets given to us by the battlespace owner. And how those deals usually worked was, of course

we're you know, you know, we're uh. We had plenty of direct action targets that we collected the intel for and we you know, we uh, here's a here's a blast from the past if you remember, terms like JPELL targets. So we had our list of jpells to go after, but most of them required to do it properly, you know, aviation assets.

And the battlespace owner was interested in giving us aviation assets. But the battlespace owner was actually a really a really good and he also wanted to work out of us and smartly, so he would give us assets if we would do

missions for him. And what he wanted from us was to take our commandos and do valley clearing operations for for as conventional forces, which really was which was a great opportunity you know, really for us too, like and he's absolutely right, like that's the commandos should have been at the very ford edge of those valley clearing operations, you know, taking bullets that so Americans don't have to it's it's it's their country, their motivated unit. They were more

than happy to do it. They had a short shelf life. So if it wasn't you know, if I can't remember the exact hours, it's forty eight or seventy two. And trust me, they knew what the shelf life was. It's even it's in their charter and I want to say it's seventy two. So if you know, if seventy two hours is about to come up, they'll let you know, Hey, we're our our work's done here. This is, this is, this is as much as we're allowed to

suck and and and on more than one occasion. For a unit that can't logistically do anything on their own, if they're on an operation of valclearing operation, then longer than seventy two hours, they'll they will find taxis to come pick them up in the middle of the woods. All of a sudden. They're logistical masters and can find their way back to Bates, but they can't find their way to emission to save their life. That's even I know I

just said they were they were a great partner for us. But that's that was a that was a reality of them. I'm telling you, I feel like, uh, you know, the more experience I got in SF, the more Robin Sage was real. You know. I remember being Robin's age going, I have to show up and beg these you know, these fake gs to let me in their camp and to the fight with me like we're in the real world. Were Americans with with you know, with bombers and

suitcases full of money. No one's you know, I don't have to. I don't have to beget anyone to come fight with us. And there I am in Afghanistan begging our commandos not to leave us, going, I am I and Robin Sage right now, this is this is crazy, but sure enough happen on more than one occasion. But those valid clearing operations were great. Uh they did suck. I mean, everyone prefers to to get on helicopter, hit a target in the middle night and not miss ameloor workout.

They could be trying, you know, even even those are you know even and they're still considered short duration missions at three and four days. I'm sure there's some conventional guy listening to me winding about being out for three or four days. But they, you know, when it was cold, it was freezing cold. When it was hot, it was miserably hot, and they would reserve the commander unit to go down the worst parts of the valley. Again, rightfully, so that's exactly where we wanted to be. But you

know, we did those value clearing operations. You know, if they teed it up for us, and they teed it up for us right then, then they put us right in the thick of sing in the thick of things. Then we got to do a lot of good work. That there's there's a couple of really cool stories that that actually come from that particular uh mission, that deployment. We were the and I don't I don't know who keeps

track of these stats. I remember them telling me, but you know, adding up our you know, the the various kills you give us an odia they and they you know, they they give it your casts, you know kills and your small arm skills, and you know we were up in the you know, high couple hundreds and uh they said that we were the you know, the the leading ODIA in country uh and kills, which really wouldn't have been hard. It's not. And although we were a really good ODIA,

it's not because we were amazing. We we thought we were, but they put us. They put us in a good area with the commandos, so we we we operated in all of the east in two KL. I used to be able to tell you what in two kls did for I could probably get most of the most of the acronyms. And it was just a hot spot at that time. So we we had the we had the right partner force and the hottest area of the country. One mission was a fair you know not it was a great mission. It's not necessarily the one you

want to get woken up for. Yeah, I told you that battalion commander was. It was a great dude. He calls our our team leader and our team sergeant into the office. He was like, hey, I need you guys, and uh and I guess he's he's teared up, you know, asking for this help. You know, my teams are it's like my team sergeant Rixby, he goes, what do you need? You know, he's always giving us aircraft. He's always been real real good to us. He goes, what what you know? What what's wrong, boss, He

goes, My my my boys are hemmed up. My boys are hemmed up in a bad way. You know. We got uh, you know, we got double digits dead and and double digits wounded. Uh, and those numbers are climbing if we don't if we don't get someone there like right now, and came back got the ODA said hey, the you know, blades are spinning. We got to get there. We if I remember right, this is called Operation Bulldog Bite. We were going to insert to the south

of their location because they were still in a firefights. They didn't want us to insert there. We're gonna insert south their location, and the rangers were coming in. We're gonna insert to the north, and we were gonna and we were basically it was really gonna we were supposed to meet him there together, but everyone everyone knew it was gonna be a race to to try to

get to him first and and and uh and help those guys out. Well when we inserted, the Ranger forty seven had mechanical failures and they and they didn't insert, so it was it was just us when we got there. We got there right as a first light was there. The eighth we got there a little bit later, was supposed to insert in darkness. It was just first light. A C one thirty got there early to try to make

sure that everything was going to be kosher for us. And as soon as AC one thirty got on station, it started lighting off and it didn't stop shooting. It was shooting why we landed and when they and when the daylight, when the forty seven took off, it was still firing. And and I remember looking at one of our guys like and that weird. He's like, what's that. He's like, I've never seen an AC one thirty in the daylight. He's like, yeah, that is that is kind of weird.

Come to find out. Uh, and heck one of you guys may know. But it had to go up to like two or three star level approval to keep the keep Specter flying daylight that low. Yeah, agent targets you remember, I was gonna say that almost almost always AC Spector would be like denied daylight offs because of flys so low you can see it. And they were worried that would have present a target for man portables and stuff.

But to have a AC one thirty during the day is exceptionally rare and like and like you said, probably had to be elevated because the the in country commander, it's like the Air Force, they did not allow that at all. Yeah, I'm telling you, it was a weird sight seeing it, you know. Yeah, you know, you get to hear it a lot, you know, what's up there, you know, on you know, on multiple multiple nighttime operations, but when you actually see it during the day,

just it's just stuck out. I'm like, man, that's really weird. And we confirmed, you know obviously that you know, it got told to us that they had to get special approval to stay on station, and it took us and of course we get we get inserted a little bit, a little bit further than we wanted to be inserted. So it's gonna take even long. It's gonna take all day for us to get up there. We get into you know, there's a couple of villages between us, and

then we get into a little bit of contact. But the right call was made, like you know this, you know, engaging it. Killing the enemy right now isn't really our our mission. Our mission is to get these guys as fast as we can. And again I'm I'm the I'm the only commic guy on on this mission. I was the only common guy for them for the most part during that deployment. And as we're traveling at night, we know we should be getting close to these guys. Uh. And it

goes back to again, I feel like I'm in the Q course. Like at the times you feel like the Q course is so basic, and things they tell you in the Q course they do they come back to ring true in operations. And I remember an sut being said, being told that the most And let me know if you if you remember this, you know, especially in small United tactics, what is the most dangerous part of any mission? When when you leave, when you leave and come back from the wire,

you want to take a guess at it. I mean, oftentimes it's right as you clear the objective, right, because everyone's tired and you're chilling on security. What the seven dash the seven dash eight answer for that will be re entry of friendly lines. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, so you're yeah, you're looking up with friendly forces. Yeah, that's right,

re entry of friendly lines. And I always thought that was uh, you know, uh a little bit uh, a little bit over the top, Like I mean, don't you The most dangerous thing is, you know, getting out here and you know, and get it on an ambush line and mix it up with the enemy. But here I am at two am in Afghanistan, and there is this, you know, there's these young eleven bravos that you know that are bearing their brothers and watching their other brothers maybe you

know, slowly bleed out. And there's these guys trumping through the woods trying to link up with them, and I cannot raise them on the radio. And and I was walking point at the time too, going well, this is about fitting. You know, it's my It's my fault. I guess why we can't make commos? So I guess I should be eating these rounds. I did everything that I was supposed to do before leaving, you know, I did you know, I you know, I got their fills,

I got their frequencies. I did radio checks with their guys in the ground. Why I couldn't make Commo at that time is just is the is the bane of every echoes existence. And you know when when you needed Comma with the most, I couldn't make Commo. And I just remember walking with my butthole pucker going up every step. I am afraid these you know, these these bushes are going to light up. We never made comma, we never made uh radio contact with them. And luckily for me, uh they you

know, they they they they heard things in the bushes. We lit up with them, like you know, they yelled from a dish, said, hey, who is there? We got we got to you know, speak English, and they knew it was us, and they knew that there was an American force uh coming, you know, to link up with them.

And luckily that got disseminated all the way to to the outskirts. But I'll I'll never forget how, you know, just how how dangerous uh that something that that really seems like the least amount of dangerous thing that you would do, like you know, there was really there's no enemy at the time. There's so much other dangerous stuff I've done in my in my military career. Yet that to me, when I tell that story, I can still feel the you know, the hair stick up the back of my neck walk into

those woods, you know, wait waiting to get lit up. But it's nighttime, right, so yeah, yeah, yess yeah, it's yeah, it's nighttime. I have nods. You know, I don't even know, you know, if they got nods, or if you know, if all their guys you know, have nods, or if they're still rocking seven deltas on a low loom night. Makes them almost just as dangerous with them as

without them. I'll tell you this this war story real quick, how they even how they how they I'll rewind it and tell you how they got into this position, and what'll blow your mind what we talked about after we met up with them. So it's really a sad story about about the bureaucracy of our military and the inability for people to make decisions. This was one of their very last valley clearing operations. It's it had been a very quiet deployment

for those guys, and they just hadn't seen a lot of action. So they, you know, they they started, in my mind, a little bit to to lose respect for the battlefield, you know. I mean, people don't understand that there's a lot of lull to war. And yes, we lost a lot of guys in Afghanistan, but there's plenty of guys who weren't deployed and never fired their gun and they never saw anything bad. And they just they woke up every day, went to bed every day, and

eventually went home. And it's not a sexy story to tell your friends, but that's the truth for really a lot of soldiers in Afghanistan. These guys hadn't seen much much combat at all. They come across this h this house, and this house is completely full of IDs, full of IDs, and so the company commander says, hey, we're not going to touch this stuff. There's way too much, none of them. I don't feel that we're comfident enough to move this stuff or we should. Anyway, I'm just going

to call a strike on this house. So they get into a long haul and they start the process of trying to get someone to authorize dropping on this house. No one wants to make the call. The you know, the battalion commander doesn't want to make the call, the brigade commander, And in fact, it's probably worse than that, not the drug out the story, but the you know, the oppso didn't want to make the call, who eventually made it to the exo and eventually made it to the battalion commander.

Like all these thresholds and levels and everyone just passing the buck up, passing the buck up, passing the buck up. Well, they've been there for like four hours, just waiting for someone to give them any sort of guidance of what of what they should do. Well, it's human nature. I'd probably do it too. But what does Joe do after four hours being in the hot sun, after not seeing any apt Joe does what Joe does. And and I say that, like I said, I I'm not a robot.

I do the same things. It allowed me to get up within very close proximities and lob of volley of RPGs and and uh and machine gun fire and just absolutely lay waste of these guys and they really didn't have a solid fighting chance at it. They overwhelmed them pretty quick and hurt them pretty bad, uh, you know, and that's when we got the call. So the fact that at the end of the day, it was just indecision on anyone wanting and of course, as you can uh, it's collateral damage.

Is the reason they I want to destroy a building, Yeah, yeah, destroy that building or and there was another building close, like fairly closed to it, so they were concerned about that building rather than being concerned for their safety, and well, being of our soldiers. They cared more about mud buildings, and we send guys on the body bags for it. It'll always be wrong and that's how So that's that's how we got there. Now I'll

get now, we'll fast forward. We're here, we're talking to these guys. The we're gonna go, uh, you know, we're gonna go up and get a little bit of shut eye because we're they're gonna go come pick them up in daylight the next day. And so we tell them and of course they're still in the they're in the valley, like this house is in the valley. They're still in this house or in this compound. And we said, hey, we're going to go up to that high ground over there

and and get the tactical advantage. And I suggest you guys come with us, and uh and even then they're like no, like you guys got it up there, Like you guys can protect us from up there, right, and like kind of like I don't like what would be what would be a better bet would just to be up there with us, Like that's that's where you want to be, not down here in this valley. But but yeah,

I'm not gonna be too hard on them, you know. I mean obviously they they were dealing with a lot, beat down pretty hard, and maybe they just needed him. They were more than willing to have someone come save him and help him out. And that's that. That and I'll tell you one more after this, but you know, we'll let you guys ask questions or talk about it a little more. Out was one of our better missions. Sorry, but I don't mean that you guys lost their lives.

Yeah, trying to think of a good word to use where I say, you know, better missions one of the more significant actions. And you guys went in there and helped out fellow American soldiers. That makes it meaningful, that's right. Yeah, I mean, the the the feeling. It's only happened probably two more times in my career. Like, you know, to get there and face to face and strangers, just absolute strangers look at you

and want to hug you because you because you showed up. And they they they, you know, they needed someone with guns to show up, and you know, they they're just you know, they they're sitting there waiting, waiting to die, and we're I mean, if they knew us, we were as big as jackasses. As as as anyone else, you know, like we're we're we're you know, we're definitely not at times, and he

put up on a pedestal. But at the end of the day, hey, would the green rays show up and the guys with beards show up like you're expected, you know, to to to to fill that role, and we were more than happy to fill that role for him, and we're more than happy to protect those guys. Get those guys out of there. I'd of curiosity. You're the size of that element that you guys went in to relieve or solid I want to say, in the in the twenties. And

then do you do you recall like what the uh was it? Was it a captain? Was it like a a pl or a second or a lieutenant? I know I'd have to we there's there's I don't know if a few guys have one like this, I would need a lifeline and our medic. Mark Demayo remembers everything. Yeah, everything. I could call Mark right now. He'll tell you exactly how many guys are there, the rake of that

dude and the area we were operating again. Yeah, I'm just curious if like the the officer like the ground force commander was one making the call not to like evac with you guys up the up the hill, or if if he was getting from higher that knows, like stay in place until we resolve what we're gonna do with this these I E. D s. But I just I just remember that being, you know, the answer to the to

the conversation. Obviously the team sergeant had that had that conversation with whoever is in charge, and yeah, and may being the como guy, I was probably right next to the commanders sitting up sitter reps. Yeah, And so was there something else with that you wanted to talk about how that operation wound down or if it sounded like maybe there was something else you wanted to say about it. No, not about that. When I'll talk about one more

that's you know, that's kind of similar happened to the same trip. But I'll tell you one of the weirdest things, one of the weirdest things that ever happened, was at the end of that operation. And by the time we actually got helos in there was actually it was actually at nighttime, so we actually stayed you know, all day during the day, got all the wounded out and whoever could walk to this next LZ. We were all going to walk that to that HLZ and get out of there with a under with

a forty seven. So it's nighttime, we're we're in Paz posture and our interpreter comes up to me and goes, hey, one of the guys found a goat and he really wants to keep it. And I, in this reaction, was like, no, you can't bring a goat on a forty seven, but you know, I don't know. Another party was like, you know what, sure, yeah, he can have the goat. So I, for whatever reason, authorized this guy to have a goat on the forty seven. And and he's just holding this goat the whole time. He's

holding it, and we're we're on this like steep ledge. So here on this the top of this plateau's where it's gonna land, and we're at the very edge of this really steep ledge. So when the forty seven comes and tailgate this way, I look at him and I told the interpreter, hey, hold onto that goat tight. We're we're getting ready to go, and and I'm just watching them, Uh, I'm just watching with nods and it looks like he does this and then just throws the goat off off the ledge

to its little goat death. And I'm like, those they're so weird. Come you out. Afghans just do weird things, you know, just shaking my head, like I thought you wanted that goat. Why would you throw that goat off? And so this, this this question is is bottling my boggling my mind the whole ride over. So as soon as the wheels laying down and and uh and Jelalabad and we can get away from the road to wash, I go grab the interpreter. I'm like, hey, why did

he kill Why did he kill that goat? I thought he wanted that goat? And uh he said, And apparently he says, the the forty seven scared the goat and the goat back legs launched off of his chest and he tried to grab it. But from my angle, it looked like the threw the three the goat off, So the poor goat jumped to its death. But it was the weirdest thing in the world to witness, not not knowing what's going on. And I really feel like that sums up my experience.

I mean, honestly, you're lucky it was just one goat, because that could have started if there had been like a flock or herd of goats out there whatever it is, like everybody would have wanted a goat, and you had started a horrible, horrible precedence of them based probably stealing goats and taking them on the forty seven. And I'm sure I'm sure that would have been a theater wide email at some point. Pretty soon you're up to donkey.

Yeah you would. You would have been been the doctor Doolittle of Afghanistan. Uh, shepherd and goats around on forty seven the uh that that same trip, I'm into I'm in civilian clothes, I'm getting ready to go on the ring route, and I have to go down to Bogram. I don't even either for op fund or or for Crypto. There's some reason I had to

go down to Bogram. So I'm into Alla Bad. I'm in jay Bad waiting for the ring flight and this like this E five or E six guy comes up to me and goes, h and me, there's another guy with me on my team. Can't remember who who was with me, but examthingly goes, hey, uh, you guys special forces and I mean, I'm we're in civilian clothes. I mean, could have been a contractor, but you know, lucky guess. I'm like, uh yeah, we're special forces. And he's like, hey, I've been looking for you, guys.

I've been I've been trying to call you guys, been trying to email you guys. I'm really trying to get a hold of you guys. I'm really glad I got to see you. And I'm thinking, what what email are you using? Phone? Like how to Like this whole thing is starting out weird already. And then he gets like, you know, you know, real emotional, and he's like, hey, man, I'm we're out at Cotton the Jill. He goes, it's uh, it's you know, the next province over. It's a really small base. He goes, we're just

waiting to die. He goes, weird, there's nothing we can do about it. We're just waiting to die. I you know, I have to sit there and tell my guys that they're going to be okay. You know, help is coming. You know, it's not it's it's not that bad. When I know it's that bad, and I'm like, man, that is that's a horrible story. I was like, let get give give me a give me a red line number, and well we'll see what we can do, okay, And he was like all right, and so he leaves.

I cancel my ring flight trip and I go back to to the to the team house, you know, and I go to the you know, the team leader on the team sergeant. I'm like, hey, like, you know, tell them the same story. I was like, you MND have to look into this, and I'm like, no, it sounds sounds like something you should look into. And again, that's what's really cool and that will always miss about, you know, being a being a green Bray

is you know, the the the autonomy to do whatever you want. It's it's a lot of work, unfortunately, to collect your own intel and to you know, create your own con opts, you know, execute your own missions with only twelve guys and a partner force. But it's but it's but it's all worth it at times when you get to to do things like this, and so I call I call the guys up. I talked to their

first sergeant. It's a company size element out there, common to Jill and without trying to throw that guy under the bus trying to feel out what's going on, and the first sarm was like, yeah, it's pretty bad out here. I can can you guys come out here? And I was like, okay, we'll come out and look. And so me and my team sergeant get on a black Hawk. Can we fly out there to Common and Jill to see what's going on? And it's a gosh, I wish I

could remember the state. I want to say. It's like an Illinois National Guard unit out there, and they start telling me everything that's wrong, and I remember thinking myself, Ah, they're they're screwing this up somehow, like they're you know, they're they're they're being cowards, they're you know, this is what happens, or you're not aggressive towards the enemy, and uh, you know obviously it was like deep in the back of my in my mind,

but yeah I thought it. And so I'm listening to these guys stories and I'm and so I'm like, so that's so you know the you know, the point of origin where it's always coming from. They're like, well, there there's only three points of origin. I said, all right, we'll send out an SR team and set up on all three ports ports of origin. There's there's nine, ten, twelve guys. I know you're a company, but that's that's easily doable. They're like, I can't do that.

We can't go out and I'm going to screw up the number a little bit, but we can't go out with less than twelve people on a patrol. He goes, And so with twelve people on a patrol, if I'm to go, put three people, so you know, on on those points of origin, three teams of those points of origin. That's thirty six people

right there. That already puts a set, you know, at at full strength for running operations, because that means half the guys are sleeping while the other half are out and as soon as those guys come back, those guys go go go out on operations. And the only thing we've done is run twenty four hour opts on three different three different point of origins and we're not even know, we're not even living, we're not doing like we're not like

you can't run operations like that. I'm like, I was like, twelve guys to leave these points of these poos if you will are like twelve hundred meters away, like they're not that far, like you have to twelve guys to go a click outside the wires like at absolutely and just they couldn't. They couldn't drive, They couldn't drive down to the next village which was only four or five hundred meters outside their gate without getting completely riddled and have to

turn back around. They couldn't get air support. They asked for guys to do valley clearing operations, and just the more you know, I sat there with those guys, the more the first sergeant again he was a National Guard infantry first sergeant. He was a good dude. He had he was you know, he was just a solid guy. He had a lot of answers and a lot of things he tried. But of the day, they just weren't capable of solving this problem. And so we we went back and we

did something that we rarely rarely do. We put the I'm going to forget words now, but the Kandak was broken up into three elements. Like Kandak is already a battalion, so whatever companies, yeah, sorry, companies. So they're broken up into three companies and we were going to bring two companies of command endows to clear this valley, which is which which we've never done because you know, they're on a red, orange, and green training cycle,

so they're always in third. So to bring two companies forward was a big deal. These soda headquarters gave us a bunch of pushback, and they're like, I don't know what you guys are talking about. We've asked, you know, we've we've put sign birds around there, We've asked our human mentors like we're not getting anything in that area, Like they're asking us to please go do something else, and they're like, no, we've been on the ground. These guys are hurting, like this valley needs to be cleared.

We we set off of what we called Operation rock Star. That was back in the day when odias could still name their own naming conventions before people probably uh uh took uh took some some some free speech liberties within their operations. Operation Penthouse Yeah yeah, yeah yeah, And I love it and everyone got behind it, like all the uh the aviation support called all the hlzs like Ringo and and like all and uh and and you know, HLZ bon

Jovi and everything. It was we inserted that night and the Hilos. It was it was a long valley and the the uh, the cop was at the very base of the valley, so we were going to insert at the very northern part and then kind of like a hammer and anvil operation. So so the so the base only had to basically be the anvil, love it, and we would push them all down all down the valley, or at

least contain them in the valley. We we get uh, we come into fire are as heavy fire as soon as as soon as we as soon as we land and uh, and we're thinking and the soda didn't even want to see you here. We are taking massive you know, RpK fire from PKM fire from the from the mountain sides. And you told us there was no one here. And that was just a bunch a couple, uh, basically a couple of low level crooks lobbing RPGs in the base every now and again.

The our team leader immediately called the called casts. That's a whole another story, but I'll touch it on it for just a second. At the time, you had to have battalion level approval to call casts. We had a great team leader who knew the rules. And there is a caveat to that during the infill of an operation, when they know you're vulnerable, you do not have to call battalion for approval, and you could immediately call cast

from the ground. That's that's exactly what he did. If you wanted that, we'd had a bunch of shot up birds that that night, So he does that, we quill, we quell that, and there's just these pockets as as we move, pockets and pockets and pockets, and most of them

were really from from the sides of the mountain. So it wasn't a whole lot of like a close, you know, personal type combat, but the type of combat that is, it's great, and it's great for numbers because really just by you being in the valley is what stirs them up, you know, on on these on these mountain sides, and then just air support

comes in and crushes them. Well, the very first one that we called air support on was way up there, and I wasn't on it, but we asked a couple of guys to go up there and do a BDA on on that, and it took them hours to crawl up this mountain to get to that BDA side. But when they did, what we found we're guys and Acus and there were foreign fighters, holy shit, and we found him

all through the valley. Long story short. By the time we get done with this valley and get home, the guys who didn't want us even going on the mission were giving us all sorts of kudos and praises for one of the one of the you know, the biggest noble operations you know that that

we took on, and they didn't even want us to go. Our our captain as soon as we get home, gets home, gets gets uh, We're don't want to like temporarily fired or we'll see if he's fired because the sea desoute of Commander wanted him on his on the carpet like now because he heard that he didn't use the right protocol for calling in cass and he called in cast without a Italian level approval and he sat there in Bogram for like a week and then he sees to see just out of Commander tells the story,

goes, oh, I didn't know it was during in phil You're good and sends them back to the team while fortunately for us, while we're running them up for another solid a week with without our team leader actually had going on. I'm going on some great missions, but they didn't deserve that.

And that and again that that that deployment was really like one of the spur you know, the moments that truly spurred me to say, as and as great as that deployment was, like you know, we got to save like those guys and we got back to their camp, they all gave us the biggest hug and they're like, man, thank you for saving our lives. We don't think we were going home without you, Like you really feel like you did something worthwhile. But there was a reoccurring theme that deployment, which

was this conops had gotten crazy to twenty and thirty pages. It was getting increased harder to fight. You feel like you're fighting the enemy and the soda fan see just soda trying to get out the door. If the enemy could move as long as the enemy moved every night, then he was moving faster than than than we could keep up with. Because that conupt that was approved

was was for this location, it got it got really disheartening. I mean, what a ridiculous we have, What a ridiculous situation that you have soldiers on the ground there who are telling you, hey, we're getting hit every night, but higher is saying, well, we don't have it on sickets, so I guess it's not happening. It though, the whole thing at a at a battalion and higher level, you know, not not just at and within SF and within the military really just kind of to start to discuss

me, you know, and if we weren't. There was such a solid team of good dudes who were just willing to do whatever it took to get out the wire. I think really have a good attitude generally speaking. They're like, okay, fine, you want twenty pages, I'll make you. I'll get if that's what it takes you out of the wire, I'll give you twenty pages. If you want thirty pages, then we'll get really efficient

at writing thirty pages and we'll get out the wire. They were, you know, they were just a really good team when it came to that that really could have crushed you know, other teams and did and it did. What did crush? Do you remember? Roughly? Yeah? Oh nine,

o nine, this is about my Crystal years. Yeah, because I remember talking to two down ten Yeah, yeah, I remember talking to UH an SF soldier sometime in like in the O eight to oh nine time frame, and he said that if they were on target and they fired their weapon, there would be a fifth they had to fill out of fifteen six das six

like that. Then it just got so ridiculous for a while. Yeah, And and I don't I don't mind if the war warrants that, if we're making results and we just don't need American cowboys, you know, going on target just to spike the football every night. I did that, you know, and as and as a younger soldier, that's you know, I would I would have never said that, and I'd be like, as long as we're here, we need to be out on target. Yeah. I did

get a little bit older and wiser, but we weren't there yet. And I think the biggest problem that I saw was ground guys were reporting ground truth. I sought first hand that those reports. We had these like green, yellow and red reports about how they're doing planning wise, how they're doing logistically, how they're how you know, how their how their training is going.

And we generally gave him yellows and reds across the board. Yet when you see a polished product later up at a sea just soda level, looking like it's you know, like everything, Rosie, that's not what we say, right, it's always And not to disparage military intelligence because because there are a lot of two shops, are a lot of humanity, Like there's a lot of good work in the intel, but there's also a lot of bureaucracy,

bureaucracy there where when guys like like you were talking about these guys, but when guys are on the ground are reporting what's going on, and then you have you know, two shops, you know, intel shops going no, we don't have any intelligence and supports s's like, well, there's your fucking intelligence, Like why do you think your product, superseds what these guys on the ground are telling you hey, And that's that's part of unit history right

there, like we we had, we've there's been a disconnect for a while. You can go all the way back to well, I'll get close but Operation Anaconda and two thousand and three someone helped me out on that. But it's gotten close to you early war where you know, these ground units are are saying, hey, there's a major a collection of enemy personnel in this area, and in higher ups going nope, we sent over as the is SR over there, didn't see anything and go no, they're there and say

I'm nope. We sent ISSR over again, there's nothing there. And then it you know, it took you know, unit AFO troops to go to go up there in twos and threes and live on the side of a mountain for a few days ago. Holy crap, this place is crawling with people. And even then like them kind of be like, whoa, we don't really see it on is SR. That's one of the reasons Operation Anaconda was such a debacle. Super over reliant on on ISR and not got ground.

We we jumped forward a little bit. You had talked about that before this deployment. You would also you'd gone to selection beforehand. Can you talk to us a little bit about when the idea of going to trying out for the unit came about into your mind and and then like going to selection, Uh no, because I failed selection the first time. I don't talk about my

failures. Uh The h going to selection the the first time goes goes back to the you know, the adage of I didn't want to I didn't want to be done with my military career, not that I was thinking of retiring or being done at any time. Reill soon at that point. But at this point in my career, I felt like, you know, I went into the military, you know, check, I you know, I became a Green Beret because you know, you know, being in the regular military

was wasn't enough. And then I was like, hey, there was a small group of guys within SF that that that I thought were even better. And going to a dive team, check like you know, I can. I continued to push myself and and you know, and and and make it. Uh, you know, I wanted to go to war real bad. I went to war to war several times, and I felt like I was really good at it, you know, you know, check like I'm I'm I'm continuing to get to look for challenges, meet him and and you know,

there's a couple of things going on. One I wanted to see how how far I could go. I didn't think I was the best guy on my team. And that's why, like, you know, I needed to go to selection because I gotta because I'm you can't you can't soar with with eagles when you're hanging around Buzzer. It's like it was it was it was nothing like that. And in fact, I was probably the third best guy

on my team. I wasn't even the best guy on my oda, uh and but I was the only guy that went to selection and I did. I never told anyone this, but I did get tired of hearing a lot of people train up for selection and going to sniper school, you know, and going to this school and you know, uh like and always like collecting this, this this perfect packet to go to selection with because they're because they're going to go to KAG but they they forgot the most important part of the

process, which was going to selection. And so it's had a lot of people talk about it, but that never do it. And so there's a lot of and I knew even before that deployment handwriting was on the wall deployments are going to go away. Iraq was already starting to go away at that time. You know, there were rumors of you know, of of Afghanistan

combat operations beginning to get question and put into halt. And I wasn't done deploying, and I knew I could go to one other place and and hopefully, you know, continue to deploy and maybe even deploy the rest of my career, so you kind of take that that whole you know, that whole mound of evidence, and that's what that's what drove me to go to selection.

So took two shots, which was not abnormal at all. Right, In fact, I don't like I like calling the first one a WRECKI so the one, the first one was a wrecky and I made it really far, like I made it like the only thing I didn't do was the forty miler. And it was definitely one of those things where you show up, you know, and even though you know as an odia, you don't have

this like, yeah, I never felt this weird. Oh we're just twentieth group, you know, like our odias always thought, you know, I had a had had nothing, but un knew they were good and if you

questioned it, were more than willing to prove it to you. So I never really had this in my career, this oh, I'm just twentieth group until I showed up to selection, and I don't know, it's just a bunch of really big guys and you know, guys telling all these crazy stories and like, I don't know, maybe you know, maybe maybe I am out of out of my league a little bit and then just slowly, you know, the days go by, and the days go by, and the

class gets smaller and smaller, and and and you're still here and and all those big loud mouth guys, uh, you know, didn't make time standard this day and that day, and and really by by the end of it, you're it's probably a dramatic way to say it, but you kind of know, you know how in three hundred, like they get to the the end of it and they're like, we actually might win this thing. You know, they kind of thought it was a suicide mission and then they think

they actually could pull it off. It's kind of like how I started the field. Actually, I you know, I'm looking at everyone around me and I'm just as good as as as anyone here. I can I can make this thing. And as soon as I bottles of the time, I started feeling like that I got cut and which was the very end of it. And I remember going to the I won't talk about the well, we'll just

I got We'll just say this. I got interviewed at at at the end, and uh, the interviewer was like, you know, I'm just just not im not gonna talk about it. Did did you. Did you get good feedback ish in terms of what you could improve if you came back. No, okay, I'll I'll try I do. I don't mind coming on podcasts and I don't mind you know, you know, talk about the unit. You know, uh, selection, you know, selection is sacred. Yeah, we get it. There's and there's some things I will talk about.

But yeah, I was. Yeah, I was able to talk to him at the end. He did ask me some questions. I'm afraid if I go into it, I'll end up given someone. But but they but they did welcome you to come back again, try out again. Yes, he he asked me. He asked me how I did. I told him I thought I did. I thought I did pretty well. And then he laughed at me because he said, well, you're you're sitting here, you must not have done that well. And I was like, out, Shelson,

Yeah, that's that's that's pretty much true. We we had a we had a lively conversation after that, and I must have said something right to uh to let them have pity on me and bring me back for a second try. And so I went went deployed, UH, came back, came back again, and was was was just and I truly mean this, like just lucky enough to to to get through the process. Yes, I trained

for it a lot of guys, did you know I was. I was in the top third, you know, of the class whenever we did anything, you know, I mean, I know physically I deserve to be there. So you know, why do I feel lucky? Because there are guys that were way ahead of me and always ahead of me and and didn't make it. You know, it's just it's a weird it's it's a weird process

that has that has a weird way of working of working things out. And there's there's a saying that didn't make a whole lot of sense at the beginning, and they'd say, hey, we're not looking for the best guy, We're looking for the right guy. And I remember thinking myself, wouldn't the best guy be the right guy? Kind of doesn't make a whole lot of sense. And again, just the longer I was there, the truer that that that saying rang out was it's it's not the best guy, it's the

right guy. So I was just again lucky enough to be the right guy. So you get picked up and then off to OTC and I mean, what was that experience like for you? I mean, did you you enjoy the training? Yeah, I'll tell you. I will tell you this about selection. It'll because it'll it'll roll into into OTC as well. Selection bar none. I don't care where you've been. What you've done is the most

professional a thing you will ever witness. And and you know, I wish I could kind of go into detail and tell you, like what you know, how professional is and how it will blow your mind, but I'll just leader that it is. It is the most professional thing you'll you'll ever experience.

And I don't know if you ever you know, you ever had this experience where you go to a military school and things are they're they're run okay, they're little a little discombibulated, and you know, it makes you feel at one point like, is this your guy's first time ever running this course? Yeah? I mean are you just making this up? Yeah? Yeah, you got to have this figured out by now. That happens zero times ever in West Virginia. It is the most professional thing you will ever It's

so professional. We've had guys quit before because they saw the level of professionalism and a course and just said I'm not that professional. I can't be this professional and I can't meet this standard and so and select themselves off off the professionalism of it. So I'll absolutely say that they, you know, the the unit and selection deserves that that credit and to be known for that.

And u OTC was still professional, I say, not as professionals, you know they it, Uh, you messing up an OTC on a CQB run and there will be a you know, a large muscular man yelling at you from the catwalk, you know, letting you know how much you suck and I much you probably don't deserve to be here, and uh, you know it is it is up to you to to to deal with that information and

uh and and react to react accordingly. The two things that they gave me, uh were this, I felt challenged, and I felt like the you know, the skill set that that I was acquiring and the resources required to you know, needed to develop this type of skill set, we're finally there. Like it just it's it's like it's like being in a tactical Disney world. I mean, just everything's at at your fingertips. If you need it, you'll get it. It's with without a doubt, the most amazing place

I've ever worked. And and and I almost feel bad sometimes telling people like how great I had it, because even though special operations and as a whole generally speaking, you know, have have money and they have equipment, but very few people really know what it's like to never want for anything. So what was it like? What was it like when you graduated and showed up to your team and walking into their team room that first day. I knew

this. I knew when when I graduated OTC. Uh. It's one of the few times in life where I feel like I took a moment, you know, and thought to myself, Hey, like remember this, like this will be this, This may be the greatest accomplishment of your life. I know, you know, maybe maybe that even sounds dramatic, but at least at least I felt aware enough to know that this is something, you know,

a few people actually get to do. At the end of the day, if you don't make select, even if you make selection but you don't make OTC, you did something great that still very few people do. But it's not you don't feel good about not making it. Uh. And I but I knew at that point, even if they fired me in six months, I was an operator and I you know, and I did you know, you know, I did this, I accomplished this. I was good

enough. I you know, am one of the very I'm in a part of one of the smallest brotherhoods and all of the military, and I definitely I I enjoyed that moment. And then of course when when the realization of you know, getting into your team room and that what you thought was was pretty good. CQB the my my first team leader, did who did not hand out compliments, uh ever to anyone kind of let it slip that I graduated number one in CQB, which I knew. I knew I was doing

pretty good. Then as QB he was letting me know, you goes, so you think you think you're good just because you graduated number one in CQB, what's it's not going to be fast enough here? And uh and I looked at him and I go, so I graduated number one cqbmember. I remember going like, no, that's that's not what this is about. But forget that. But that's that's that's not a compliment, it's nothing. Let me go on, let me I heard it. I heard it. Yeah, I want to see you be uh, no big deal. But he

was a but yeah, but he was absolutely right. Man. You you get over there, and those and and they and they'll tell you this is usually a pretty similar experience. They'll go to the shoot house or the first the first couple, you know, the first couple of days, and at least the first day, the first couple of runs, they'll tell you, hey, just hang out in the back and don't try to shoot anything.

And that's and and uh and those and I will always remember those first few runs going, who yeah, that's that's gonna be tough to keep up with. You know. Uh. I didn't feel like I didn't belong, but I knew that I was about to get challenged again. And and it was just it was just another good feeling knowing that, because it happens sometimes in our careers and special operations where you make it to something and you're like, now it's good, and it's I mean, it's really good, but it's

not exactly everything I thought it was going to be. You know, you have those moments and you know that the unit just never really gave me that moment. I was it is what you think it is. It must be like on one hand, as a new guy, a little intimidating, but at the same time you're like, I'm with like the absolute top notch guys. I mean, it must be awesome to be around that kind of talent.

It that particular team leader loved, you know, you know, loved his team to to have a lot of confidence, but but to back it up as well. And I remember, you know, my first deployment going

over there with those guys. You know, still think me, yeah, I have more than enough experience and underneath my belt of combat experience, but there's always this when you're on the white side again, it's it's kind of like National Guard twentieth group, Like you don't like, you know, guys that went there, but like once they go over there, they go into a black hole and you never talk to them again, Like you have. You hear rumors of what goes on over there, but no one really knows.

You hear that they're you know, you hear their target sets or are so much livelier, and you know when they go on target, you know, it's always it's always it's always a lively night and just hear these these stories, and so you know, I was a little bit you know, didn't know what to think of the unknown, you know, on on my

first deployment. But I do remember, you know, being next to those guys and after, you know, running through the shoot two house with them, and you know, watching them and mission planning and decision making and just how they carried themselves day in and day out and how well they knew their

job. Like I remember getting on a helicopter going I'm good, like I'm with these guys, you know, I'm good, and and feeling still feeling like I can contribute with these guys, but still knowing these guys, these these guys are gonna take us home. And that's what they did. And man, that's what they did. Those those those guys were exactly who I thought they were. As soon as we got into combat. They were great. Just can't say enough good things about them. And so at this point,

I mean, you're you're off to the races. You did another another eight deployments to the Middle East, and I mean, what what what? Uh? I mean, I don't know what you're comfortable talking about. I mean, are there any particular operations that stand out in your mind or any particular experiences that you think are significant, either to you personally or maybe to the history of Special operations. Frankly, I could have done without getting shot.

I get it stands out. I was. I was running pretty clean there for you know, probably going into almost double digit deployments, and uh, you know, everyone on my team had a purple heart, and uh, but then I do remember, I'll say this about the night I got I got shot. I was I was getting more more aggressive and more aggressive, you know, and things that that I probably I knew they weren't like flagrant, but I knew that I probably shouldn't have been doing business that way,

and that there was probably a smarter way to do business. But you know, it's not like I just turned into like an aggressive retard like I just I'd slowly continue to go down this you know, this this path and got away with it and then got away with it, you know, and even you know, a couple of times like you know, got to kill you know, some people that I that I wouldn't have been in a good position to kill otherwise, and so it you know, kind of reinforces that,

Hey, just the most aggressive guy, the fastest guy wins and always wins. And that's just how it is. And that is true ninety nine percent of the times. And you you, you play like that long enough,

you you will roll snake eyes. Uh yeah, and and and and and I rolled snake eyes one night, way too close, way too far, you know, on squarter patrol, squarter control, you know, a click away out from the rest of the assault element, continuing to engage a guy, engage guys and get drawn further and further out, and even knowing that and being like, hey, we're you know, there's you know, we just got away with that last one, and there's there's more people you

know behind, you know, in this next group. I probably shouldn't go that far, and I should probably you know, plus up another operator to you know, if if we're going to do that, and then just going and now we got this uh and uh and and and we did not. So I got shot. Our commo guy that was with us got shot. Uh. I got hit by a grenade. About five seconds later after getting shot another round uh skipped off and shot my nods in half, so my

panos were dangling on my face. Just shot up in a in a really bad way. And really lucky, lucky to get out of there, and but we did, and it it It didn't. It didn't change me to to to being like hesitant or scared. I truly think it it reset me to exactly where where I needed to be. I don't think I would have ever operated scared. It's just not who I am. If if I think I couldn't have got out of that, I would have just medically retired at that point. I just you know, that's just not how I'm cut.

So I either just would have been like, well, I lost it and it's not for me. But you know, the whole time that I was in rehab, I could not wait to get back on the battlefield. I couldn't wait. I know it sounds maybe weird to some people, but I couldn't wait to kill someone again and to prove like, hey, that's not how my career ends. There's no way that, you know. I felt like my career would end it on a mistake. So I worked as hard as I possibly could to get back out there and then to you know,

I don't know, validate myself still. I don't you know the right way way to kind of describe it, But that small reset. If I would have continued on that path, I would have died in Syria. That Syria was such a different, such a different game. You think you know i DS, you know in Afghanistan, You don't. You don't know what it's like until Isis retreats from a village and leaves about three thousand IDs everywhere, on every road, on every courtyard, in the walls of houses, puts

them on timers, puts them on ir trip devices. Just an absolute I e ed debacle. And they were more than and they were smart like they were. They were more than willing to to use your your aggressiveness against you and pull you into situations, uh, only to only to find out too late. Yeah, we made have that. That's that's what they wanted us to do. This really was a formidable enemy and some aspects and in other aspects there they were just dumb terrace like the rest of them. So there

they were definitely a dynamic there with IIS. But I hate man, I really did. I I really hated Isis on a on a level. The at end of the day, I kind of respected the Taliban after operating in Iraq. Guys in Iraq were just so quick to to surrender you know at times, and just and just take there, take their chances with the judicial system at least at least in Afghanistan generally speaking. Uh, they were willing to fight it out with you. And it was almost more like a tribal

war as well. Like I don't know, again, I'm not going to sit here and give too much, too much respect and credence to the Taliban, as if there's some sort of legitimate government, you know, fighting for their existence. And they're they're they're horrible people. But compared to Isis, Uh, they you know, I can I view them in tow two different categories. Yeah, the talentand wasn't so much into like the flagrant war crimes

and stuff like that that Isis was. Yeah, I mean they had it, you know, I mean they were, they were capable of it, but they they the the amount when Isis was willing to do it. They were willing to do it often and do it on a very large scale, right And uh, and they were and there were willing to do it, you know, to kids as as much as anyone. Right they were.

They were just they're just a different breed of evil. And I I remember you know seeing uh, you know, seeing isis dead bodies and just looking down on them with absolutely no remorse or no you know, in Turtle Struggle, going man, that was someone's son, you know, that was someone's father, but just looking at them and absolutely not caring and being like that's just a two legged dog. You know, whish whish they were more next

to them. I just really disliked them. On another well, could we talk a little bit more about Syria because you mentioned that that was like a totally different environment and you guys presumably working with the SDF, and it was it more of like a UW environment than some of the other deployments. Yeah, I'll tell you that was an s F mission. All day long, that was an s F mission. We had way too few guys doing way too much, you know, and for people who really aren't set up to

partner with with with other units. It and I will tell you why SF didn't get that mission. And they wanted it. Fifth Group wanted it so bad. In fact, there was a plan to give it over to them when we got to Rocca. We were going to hand it over to them, and then cooler minds prevailed because it was like it's a horrible idea. Like that's like it's like handing it over it, you know, at halftime.

They either take it over now or they don't take it at all, Like don't, don't, don't, don't turn it over to them, to them right as they are getting to the you know, the climax, and and need and you need to be a well oiled machine fighting their capital at you know, at the at the most and then you know, and then give it to a new guy to figure out all their all their all their initial problems. The reason SF didn't get it is because SF the same reason

I started to not like SF at the end. They quit trusting their ground guys. They required too much oversight and that that war was going too fast. If you if to slow them down with the protocol so that that they would inevitably do so. The unit does a great job at trusting their ground guys that you know, they you know, I never never had an issue, uh you know, being questioned or asking why am I doing this or

why do I need that. I just tell them what I'm doing, and I tell them what I need and uh, you know, and and if you don't give them a reason, you know to to uh to question you. They they never will. And so that my first trip was very was very unique because it was it was still I wouldn't even call it, you w like it was. It was. It was closer to to Woold War two, like you know, we had you had friendly lines, you had enemy lines, and there was there was there was there was no one between

you know, and and even weirder than that. At times it was like, you know, we called it a banker's war, like no one no one fought at night. They didn't they didn't have night vision, you know. So you know, when the sun came up and everyone woke up and and and ate some breakfast, they started lobbing mortars, you know, and right before dinner time when everyone got hungry, they you know, they packed it up and and uh you know, and and waited for the sun to

come back up. That's yes, that's a little bit of a satire way to describe it, because it was very unlike that at times, but there is there there is a lot of truth to that as well. There were times, you know, if you were to you know, have a fire or or even allowed generator like it, it would it would it would get you some some mortar rounds at night. I mean they would come out and

play at night if you gave a reason to. But generally speaking, if you didn't give a reason to, they were just it was just a very much a this was a good side, this is the bad side. They're in this village. We're in this village. There's two clicks of open ground between the two villages, and we're going to fight it out to see who

who's either going to lose this village or gained this village. And for us as as a sniper, it really pushed us to to lean heavily into what you know, we started to call at the time EL our extreme long range, because everything at the time was eight hundred meters an end. You know, eight hundred meters if you're lucky with a three or eight, Well three or eight wasn't gonna do anything, you know, from from from two thousand

meters away. But that's where our engagements are. And so now now we've all always had three three eights, but we never really dusted them off and use them with a lot of you know, extremely at you at at these uh engagements, and now you know, we're finding out you know, we the way we we use our I would have a tripod and a you know, and a pillow for my for my laser range finder, like things that

I've never had to do before. But you know, uh, you know, I would have a three thousand dollars really right stuff tripod just just for my laser range finder, because comes to find out, you know, at twenty two hundred meters away, if I'm just a little bit off and I lased the you know, the building in front of the building, I'm I'm

you know, I'm trying to get you know, I'm off. You know, I'm off by by fifty meters, and and in that fifty meters, now my elevation is drastically different, and I'm never going to hit my target at two thousand meters, even though that you know, that three thrade is more than capable of making a two thousand meters shot. So I either just excited a lot of some of some of your nerdy shooter audience, or I just put to sleep some of some of the guys who just like direct action.

We learned a lot about our equipment and about our guns. In Syria. It was a very very different war. Do you find the three three eight once you guys dialed it in that you guys were pretty effective using that weapons platform at those rangers. Yeah, well that three three was great. It was the one thing that we would go back and forth is when you get over two thousand meters, the problem we'd run into is spotting your misses.

Even though you think the three thrade is is a large round demand it it is, but you can easily not see a miss at two thousand meters And if you can't see your missus the correct you can keep throwing puns all you want, but now you're just you know, trying to get lucky. And even though the fifty cow is not as accurate as at three three eight, at least you can see your missus. And it's especially if you put like a rafis round you know inside there you can, you know, you

can seeing your your missus in that environment becomes a lot easier. And even though it's not as accurate, you know, I at least can you know, can make an informed decision on a correction, which I just couldn't with a three three eight. Right, And did it really change the way we operated a lot from long distance? Ye? Did the reliance on the sniper platforms have to do with the air support not being as quick as it was

in Afghanistan or Iraq. Uh No, we uh we we were the only game in town, so we always we always got the kind of got what we wanted. It has more to do with guys hanging out in the windows or hanging out, you know, or or being under underneath structures that an aerial you know, platform isn't really gonna be able to see as well as someone from from a ground level. Now, did you guys? Uh?

And and if I called in an air strike, and I really have a hard time saying that's my kill, So I'm at least going to try a couple of third rounds at it. The four, I call it an air

strike. Yeah. Now between the three, three, eight and and uh the fifty, did you guys experience experiment all of with like the three hundred windmags or anything like that, you know, for that sort of medium range type of Yeah, the three hundred windmag just what wasn't a platform we used And no no particular reason, uh you know, the you know, the the SF groups, to my knowledge, I think are the only ones that used that three hundred windmag and it's a great round. I mean, it's

a laser around. Mean, the the ballistics of that round is absolutely great. It doesn't have a great barrel life to it. And unfortunately the the SF groups purchased that and they didn't do a good job of having a kind of a barrel replacement plans. They actually had a great they probably had one of the great medium range or one of the best medium range long guns in the arsenal for for anyone, but with most of the barrels were shot out, Yeah, ended up not as as great as they should have been.

Yeah, because I know some that's something that seals used quite a bit and they seem to be very happy with it. Did they use a three hundred as well? I believe so they use it in their sniper school, I know. So okay, yeah, yeah, we didn't even we didn't even the only thing we even use I went to group sodic and UH and level one sodic. Gosh, I got a thing with uh sift sick or SIFT

sick if you will, Special Forces Snacker course. UH. And we only used three our weights, you know, at that three Yeah, so as as least you know, you're you're going back and forth from Syria. I mean, how did you see the campaign evolve over time? The the campaign was was pretty straightforward really, yea. Even though we handed off to other squadrons, you know they it was they really you know, encountered the same things we did and and you know, worked very similarly. So really it

was just like you know, we'd come in and out. It was just it's just picking back up where you left off. I and between and between rotations, I missed the the the fall, the fall of Rocca, so I'm sure that would have been a lot different. And I'll tell you why

I feel. I think it's a lot. It was a lot different, because when I showed up to Rocco, like very shortly after the fall of Rocca, I remember driving around that place at night feeling like I was at the you know, the opening of Terminator, when there's just bombed out buildings just everywhere on this dark, smoky atmosphere. I've never seen damage at that

scale to a city the way we leveled Rocca. We absolutely leveled Rocca, and rightfully so yeah, and I have to ask too while we have you here, I mean, did you have any involvement in the bag, daddy raid. Now that that was the very first diploma of myst gotcha and I so hit Rocca and what happened from there? I mean you said that you you actually went into the city at one point. Oh yeah, well from uh from there we went back into a more traditional, uh kind of high

value target right hunting. So the the war the traditional was over and then that that kicked off a much more fun part of Syria where we went back into uh, into strip quick strikes and a lot of them, and and and had and had a great time. That that was probably my most enjoyable trip would have been after the fall of that and uh, you know some of those guys pretending like they can just put down their guns and build back into the population and and uh and the curds will just forget about them.

Nope, the curds didn't forget about you. Uh. They and they told us by what we've had. And these are the uh from the outside looking in. The occasional like scentcom Press reports that somebody flew in and black Hellica optors in the night and hashed out business with the bad guys. Yeah, it happened a lot more than the press, press releases. There was no

need for the press to get wind of of any of it. What was that like for you and and you know, your fellow soldiers in the sense of there there was you know, the press might report on and occasionally, like we had just had these two very long wars, right that we're in and out of the media. But but but there was a national awareness about it. But then Syria comes and and it's not in the national consciousness the way these other wars are. But we have troops that are fighting same as

we do in parts of African stuff. But what was that like for you guys? I welcomed it, you know, well I shouldn't say I welcomed it at the time. I didn't know about it. I mean really like you know, when you're in that world, like I don't if I don't know the news is reporting on or what they're not reporting on. You know, I live in a very I lived in a very uh almost in a bubble. You know, your job, you're right, yeah, do your job, go home, and when I'm home, I'm training for my next

job. You know, So I don't you know, I don't have time to listen to see what you know, to see if what the news is reporting about Syria, I you know, I live it in Syria. I don't, you know, I don't necessarily The only time I would see anything on the news is someone like, you know, showed it to us and say, hey, this is this is what they're talking about. Or if

something got leaked, you know, something got leaked. We we'd always you know, we'd always know it. You know, they'd always you know, show it to us that something got leaked and try to so like those are those are far intry between well when when you would they try to like like

scare you guys straight find out who did it? Like now, most of most of the time, uh, those those leaks would would have come from a partner force or you know, someone someone at a at a much you know, higher level in the military that that they you know, they knew was way. Yeah it's not it's somebody in the three X or it's right, yeah, yeah, it's it's not even someone Jasock related. Yeah, Like it's someone that's at a at a at a theater like sitcom level that

has a relationship with Fox News and and and and leaked it. You know, it's that's usually where you know, along those lines. Yeah, so from that time period, Uh, is there any other like significant missions I kind of stand out for you. I won't I won't go into great detail about it, and I don't need to do that as a teaser, but I'll say this more or less to kind of set the records straight on it. It's another thing that it's it's funny what what does get news traction?

What doesn't get news traction? What should have been a much bigger story? And was it? And I'll talk about it because, like I said, you can google it. You know John Dunbar, you know, dying in Syria and uh and Matt ton Row which was a British essays guy which was right next to him when he died. Should should have been a huge news story, you know if you think about it, I mean, you've got an adults Force guy and a British says guy dying on the on the same

target. When has that ever happened? You know? That's that's that's that was crazy. It's never happened in the history of either one of our of our existence yet in Syria that was without it out of first, but that ended up being a bigger news story in Syria, I mean in England because you know, we had told our people that we know that we obviously have

you know, ground troops and combat operations happening in Syria. They were they weren't as forthcoming with it with the SASH and so when the news so when the news hit that an SAS guy died in Syria, you know, a lot of the public was like, WHOA, what's going on here? You didn't you guys said that we were kind of there in a support role.

That doesn't seem like a support role. One of the worst misconceptions of that of that of that mission is that newspapers reported that it was that it was fratricide that that killed him and remember something just but it was, wasn't it? And then and there's a problem with it, like you use terms like i ED what's you're right, but but people assume like like roadside bomb I d S because that's what you know when you talk about I DS is what

you know, it's what you know what what it almost always is. We were dismounted at the time, really close to target, to a bomb maker's target. He had he had an early warning and his uh A like an ied makeshift Claymore went off and John took the brunt of that. But it's set off his wall charge, and his wall charge is what is what killed Matt. And that is that story. You know, that story is out there, but generally speak and it will say, hey, it was a

fratricide and you know he died due to a friendly explosion. They'll they'll say it in ways that that are that kind of really, yeah, it's a sympathetic explosion. It's not jump around the truth. Yeah, I would like the way they say that because so let's it would be like writing a story and saying, you know, Sergeant first class Smith died in Afghanistan due to a fuel a gas tank explosion in his V Well, did the I d set off the gas explosion? Right? Yes, well but the gas tank

killed him? Like that makes you know, nowhere in the history do do we ever do we ever say that? I don't know why why we do it? Here? It it was the direct cause of you know, of of direct contact with newspaper. Stories were written, Yeah, that said differently, that that painted it insinuated differently. It's sort of the way fact checkers work sometimes, right, is they they I mean, technically, what they're saying that it was an American explosive that killed them is true, but they're

missing. But but they're leaving out really how it all went down. Yeah, that's like, that's that's one it's one way to Yeah, it's it's sort of like saying that somebody who died from you know, from enemy fire died from blood boss. It's like, yeah, that's right, right,

yeah, but that's that's so true. But they didn't just start bleeding and I and you know, they the the I don't remember which newspaper, but you know, the the the you know in England, they did like a whole investigation on it, and then you know, wrote a report saying, you know, this is the official report, you know, off of it,

you know, and sent it out as as official record. And again it's it's technically true, but I feel like it's it's wildly uh misleading, and doesn't it doesn't do justice, you know, honestly to either one of the guys who were who were who were her warriors. I mean, they were both truly, truly good man. I'll tell you a story just real quick about Matt Tunroe was an sas guy. That guy would, uh, he'd have to go on helicopter every now and again and go you know and

go visit, you know, other places where where they were at. And if he found out that were we were going on on a mission that night, he would do everything in his power to get his HELO to come in sooner or see if we would push the mission later, because he didn't want to miss a single target. He was absolutely addicted to going on missions. And I love that about him because you know, that's that's that's the way you want every every one of your guys to you know, to be.

And so just it's very unfortunate that you know that he lost his life in Syria and in that manner because he absolutely was represented his his unit. You couldn't do a better job of representing those guys. And so how did how did this start to like wind down for you? I Mean it sounds like you really like rode this wave throughout your career, did some amazing things and you had you had a great you know, twenty years in the military. I mean, what was it sort of like for you, Like you you

must have some inkling that like this is coming. I'm not going to be able to be an operator forever. I mean, what was that transition like for you? Yeah, I mean I was, I was deep in my thirties and you know, almost you know, a decade at the time on on a team, you know which my team time was was coming to an end. The uh what what really you know kind of did it for me?

Was you know, after that after that serial trip we had we had been uh we we were doing training the way we always do training, and uh, I was just unfortunate enough to be close to a couple of really big kind of training being explosions that that that just really they really rocked me. And unlike earlier, you know those you know, I've been near those size explosions before. But for whatever reason, you know, at this point in my life, you know, maybe it just finally shook something loose.

I was, I was having some some some some real issues. So we'd we'd get and and what would happen is almost every time we'd go back to do an explosive training like these, these mental issues would would would rear back up almost like like like like a re injury of it. It would get to a point where like just simple stuff like I you know i'd have to. I would I would write notes in my in my locker to tell to tell me where I parked my car, because I would just go wandering out

in the parking lot and looking for it. And it's a massive parking lot. And I feel like the first time it really felt odd to me because usually when you see your car, you're like, oh, that's right, that's that's right, that's where I parked my car, But like to see the car for the first time, you're like, that's not did someone moved my car? And literally going in there and starting accusing, you know, hey, who moved my car? Like I was parked, you know,

out there right, and like Brendain moved your car. I parked right next to you, that's where you parked this morning. I'm like, oh, yeah, that's right. You know, I'm trying to play it off, and you know, I mean, I go on and on and on. But one of the you know, the weirder stories is, you know, you know, take taking the taking the wife and kids to church and just driving and at some point, you know, you know, having you know, your wife put you know, her hand on your hand and be like

do you do you know where we're going. I'm like, no, no, I don't know where we're going right now, Like we're all dressed up kind of nice, and so I'm going to guess we're going to church, but no, I don't know. I don't know what day it is. I don't know where we're going. And uh. And I was with my wife's like, here, you're gonna go talk to someone Monday or or I will, and uh, I was and my team time was was I was within you know, I had one more deployment left, you know, really,

I mean I was, so it was it. It felt right, yeah, and I felt I felt complete with my career. I mean really Syria was great, man, I loved Syria. But when I got home from that last trip, I don't, you know, just something clicked. I was like, you know what, you know, every trip I couldn't wait for the next one. And it's not that I didn't you know, didn't have the hunger, didn't want to wait for you know, didn't want to deploy again, But there was a feeling of completion, you know,

there that had just never been there before. So what was all said and done? It wasn't it? Honestly was it wasn't. It wasn't the hardest transition. It wasn't first, you know, realizing it's time. But as we started making steps towards that, I was, I was kind of excited about the what you know that the next chapter in life. That's awesome. Do we have do you have questions for Brent? We do? I just wanted to say, also that air tags. I put an air tag in

my car. It worked, it works, wondering. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, let's hear Jackson, thank you very much. Was attending selection for the unit more challenging coming from guard SF. Is guard SF well represented in the and also how often you see riems, airmen and sailors at the unit. That's that's a good question. I was surprised at how many

other twentieth group guys were there. There there was a there was a period of time where the highest uh it was a short period of time, but it fluctuates that twentieth group had one had the best uh success rate at selection. So uh yeah, it's there's there's definitely no shortage of or at least at that time, you know, of of guard guys. There's you know, there's an eclectic mix of of guy's unit. At the end of the day, it'll always be heavy with Green Rays and Rangers. But they're is

there's someone from everyone there, I'll just you know, leave it. That will necessarily talk about the percentages of all of them. But uh, they're they're they're all there, they and they definitely all show up the selection and Jackson, thank you much. How different are the cultures between the squadrons? Oh, that's that's uh, that's a that's another good question. Actually it when I first got there, the uh, the cultures were were I would

say drastically different. Because the truth is, if you went back a little bit further when I was there, some people would say they were drastically different. Uh, when you know, when I got there, there was there were still very very different. They all had their their their own personalities.

Uh, and and sometimes were better or worse. And by the by the really by the time, by the time I got to the end of my career, a lot of those uh, I would probably say more on a negative you know, those negative type cultures just had had pretty much all but all but disappeared. And uh, even though there are still slight differences, but between the squadrons, it wasn't as much as it used to be.

And then how do you feel about how did you feel about Dev Group and HRT when you were in I didn't feel about them, uh Jo, Who who are they? I think I read a book about the second one? The uh we had a we had a lot of interaction with with the dev Group guys. And you know, I've done you know, I've done you

know, large scale training exercises with them. They've you know, they've come over and had large trail you know, you know, send ones onesI, twosy guys or a team over to do large scale old training operations to get that that crossover. And we'll just say in various places around the world, I've I've had one or two of their guys attached to us so they could get, you know, experience of where we're at. And they were always good guys. They really were. They were always good guys. HRT.

I don't never never, never saw them. They just you know, completely different mission set. They're generally speaking, their conis were Okonis. There there was a time we had HRT guys kind of attached to us, but when they were attached to us, they were just evidence collectors. You know they weren't. They weren't shooters by by any stretch of imagination and or and nor could they be. They you know, they haven't gone through our level of training. Uh, Joe's got you, Thank you very much. Did you

work a lot with twenty two sas while deployed? Got that one? Yeah, I think we kind of got that, uh dog point. And there there's a there's another one. And I'll just tell you just a quick story about how much respect we have with with with the sas. You know, obviously we were modeled after those guys. They they helped us out a lot with our tactics in the beginning. By the beginning, I mean talking like nineteen seventy seven, you know, Charlie Beck with founder days, and that

type of relationship has has maintained for for forty plus years. So I mean, I'll make up this, you know, this fictional scenario, but it's but it's absolutely true. If I was in Syria and some you know, and I'll make it close to them. My green Bret, a green Bret comes and knocks on my door and we're like, hey, heard who you guys are? Just want to come over and say hi, I'd be like, go hawk forty miles and you can come back and say hi. You know, you know, i'd say it nicer, but yeah, but generally,

generally speaking, that's turn it around. Bring a foreigner to my door, a guy who's not even an American, but they could an says, guy, come and knock on my door and say hey, yeah, hey mate, you know I'm I'm with the two two. I was told to come say hi. I'd opened that door as fast as I could and bring him right on end, invite him for a spot of tea. That's right. Yeah, the relationship that the two units have are are are great and I'll I still talk to some of those guys. Great, great guys,

dog point, thank you. What do you like about your squadron? What was the vibe? Like? Any funny stories? There's there's always It doesn't matter what part of this business you're in. You know, you work with the funniest guys you've you've ever been around, you know, and I don't care if you're a cel green ray rage, Okay, what you did. You're just hanging out with the funniest guys. You'll you'll, you'll, you'll ever work with you know, the vibe of my squadron I think was a

very was a good middle of the road vibe. Like we we uh, we were very We're very professional. We needed to be, and you know, we could could kick back and relax when when needed to be. I think other squadrons at times did, uh, we're too professional and we're very fun to be around, and uh, you know some of them were. You know, we're a little bit more I say, say cowboyish, but don't. I don't need to say that. Unlet's in a bad light.

But I think we had a good balance of both. And so I really and and uh enjoyed, enjoyed the culture of the squadron I was in. So Goldilocks will find you guys just right. Yeah, uh, Nick TC, well this is actually for Jack Well Mike Perry ever return maybe if he wants to. Sure, we'd love to have them passed. Daniel Knight May Yeah, yeah, first first group Perry. Oh no, obviously I'm plotting, Okay, the bare knuckle fighter Mike Perry. Not not that Mike Perry.

Okay, Dan O not in lyons Den, thank you, Delta least the way big PP eighty second Pug and dragons. It was just a comment. Yeah, and then uh m hmm, so Joe's got you. Thank you very much. You can talk or not talk about this obviously. Was your squad involved at all with the Battle of Kasham in twenty eighteen against Vagner Group, Yeah, I was. I was in dars Are. It was it was a good time. Uh there's there's a deuced article about it. You can read it. Uh dog point. Uh, thank you very much.

When you went back to HBT raised a sero. Was it business as usual or did you have to change it up? Oh? More or less business as usual? You know, the you know, all the ideas was definitely more of a thing on uh you know that type of you know, gaining ground conventional forces they're pulling back, you know, laying them all in. They still kept, you know, the knowledge of that and some of the TTPs, but generally speak, generally speaking, it was back to business

as usual and I believe that is it. So tell us about f RCC and some of the things that you're involved in now. Uh. Yeah. When when I got out of the military, I had to figure out what I want to do. When I grew up, had no real you know, solid plans. You know. I did a couple like ten ninety nine gigs contracting, but all kind of stuff I knew I didn't want to go overseason contract. Nothing against any of those guys, who do you know, I just you know, it's not something that I was looking to do.

I had a couple of former unit guys, uh you know, start calling me and be like, hey, we're training a squat team here, I need an extra instructor. You want to come out? I was like, that sounds yeah, I'd love to you go, you know, hang out SWAT teams and you know, try to transfer some of this knowledge that's really

kind of very uniquely you know to us. And I'm kind of uniquely to unique to SWAT teams because they, you know, they deal with with barricaded shooters, active shooters, things like that that that would happen on on our

targets. And I really enjoyed sharing information with those guys, like I really did, Like I gotta you know, I felt like I, you know, every time I went and taught those guys that I truly gave them the tools needed to be just as effective, if not more effective, and to do business smarter, to make sure that they can go home at night. And I'll never teach someone tactics where we were where safety is somehow and like the the the lead of of of a reason for teaching a tactic, never,

never, never, a safety ever played a part on. That's why we do this tactic. But if the effectiveness can stay on the same and there is the same end result that this guy dies, yet I can increase your survivability, Yeah, we'll, we'll, we'll talk about that. And so you know, I got to I got to basically show those guys the lessons that we learned in blood. Like I really wish I could say that we're so much smarter at the unit than everyone else, and that's why our

tactics are so much better. We're kind of smart. But the unfortunate truth is we just get to see a lot more targets and we had to learn it the hard way like everyone else does. So we just got we just get a lot more exposure to mistakes and into doing things wrong, and some of those things be honestly, it took us way too long to change the way we do we do business, So I'm really glad to be able to share that with those guys. That's something that eventually turned into me and a

seal Team six. Buddy. Uh, we're gonna start or did start, the beginning of a nonprofit to raise money for a police offer for a police officer training budget is such such a big deal to those guys. They have no budget. They want to train, uh, you know, they and sometimes they can get like equipment budgets and sometimes they have more equipment than you think they would than that they would have because of certain grants, but training

doesn't come along with it. And some departments don't have the necessarily equipment either. So it's a it's really diverse, you know, group of people you run into and swat teams. And I'm not talking about your your wokeness term of of of diverse, you know, I'm talking about just the different the different experience levels, the different training, the different equipment. It's it's all

over the place. So we're going to start a nonprofit. Come to find out, I don't like asking people for money, and that is a integral part of being a nonprofit. It's much so very it's a key component. It's a key component to a nonprofit. So uh, I ended up starting Ah, you know, starting First Responders Coffee Company. First, you know that I much rather you know, sell things, have an exchange for you

know, you know, value for a product. And then you know, take take the money we raise from that and uh and put it towards First Responders. So we started with the coffee company. We started November of last year. We've we've donated back a little over twenty thousand dollars in less than a year. And and the and the truth is, I love saying that number because it kind of sounds like a big number for a small business.

But we we get more requests than I could ever feel right now. So we won't be happy until we can stop telling departments that here what we're doing and asking for help. Until we can fulfill all those requests, we will never be satisfied. And so that comes into the next part of the business. You know, we could add another coffee line, which would take a lot of work and maybe add a little bit of revenue, but we decided on hey, what if we added a whole new product, we can get

into a whole new group of purchasers. And so we started First Responders Cigar Company and hopes of of of garnering a wider audience, and that's been great. That's been a little bit of a selfish pleasure because I smoked two to three of my own stash every day and so I needed that at wholesale pricing. But uh, but besides that, you know, if you think half half of the country drinks coffee. But but it is a very you know, kind of convoluted market. There's a lot of people fighting in that space.

Even though I don't know I could argue within first responders, that's a there's there's a you know, a multi million, you know person audience that you know that that doesn't have a product, you know, kind of like ours catering to them. So, you know, we do have a nice niche cutout in that area. But a small percentage of people smoke cigars. But we're the only cigar you know, we're the only one of the very very few American disabled vet and own you know, cigar lines, and then

of course the only one doing anything for first responders. Our cigar sales will probably take over our coffee sales in the next couple of months. I'll check you guys out, Brent, because we smoked cigars on the show. We have our humidor here, so I'll definitely check out. You got a box coming at you? All right, Well, well, we're happy to support the cause, and and we encourage everybody else to support the cause, whether it's for coffee or cigars or I guess you said whiskey, but I guess

cognac would go better, right first, are there you go? Yeah, yeah, I kind of have this f r c C you know thing, go on, ye, yeah, company, we'll work with it. But you guys can can find them at f r c UH coffee dot com. That's Foxtrot Romeo Charlie Coffee dot com. Check them out, and it's gonna be in the link. Uh, it's gonna be in the show description also down below. And then also, uh, you started out as a guest on the Anti hero podcast, right, and then kind of work your way

up just through sheer talent and charisma. Right, He needed the covotes with a small vocabulary, and I was the clear choice. And yeah, you can find the Anti HEROO podcast on YouTube and also on podcast platforms. Right, your your favorite podcast, So tell us about that. Yeah, it

really coincides with the first Responder Coffee company story. I think if I remember, right, the local news channel picked up a story about us, and I just got a random email from you know, from a small podcast, you know, saying, hey, I'd love to have you on the show Orange County Deputy, which is that the county I live in. I was like, well, absolutely, I'll do a podcast with you here, you're a mowing backyard what over there. Did a podcast with him, really enjoyed

it. It was a good time. Is a really good dude and a first responder. It was an easy conversation have with him. He had me back on you know, a couple more times times, and you know, and the times I was on was always the you know, his his bigger shows, and uh, you know, not to be edgy, but it's just true. And it happened, you know, I ended up. I ended up saying something on a thirty second snippet on a podcast ended up into a much bigger or deal. I'll try to make it real quick. He

just he asked me. He asked me some off the wall question on a on a first responder topic interview, and he goes, hey, well, are there are there any secrets like you want to tell me about, you know, black ops? I was like, no, I don't really have any because, be honest with you, most things get leaked, so you probably know them all anyway. And then he randomly goes, did Robin nilkill

Osama Bin Laden? And I just I answered the way I kind of do in a team room, and I go, Rob O'Neil didn't killed in Lad and it's the worst kept secret and all the special operations. And he cut that as a sippet and posted it as the promo although it had nothing to do with the with the episode, and it goes viral, Brent you rabble

rouser, Yeah O'Neill. Did he actually respond to that? Or so for anybody who's curious, you do have to check out like the full episode where you go into the weeds with it, which was episode thirty seven thirty seven. So, and the problem with that was it was cut as a teaser, an unintentional teeth. It wasn't so it wasn't a teaser that was gonna that was gonna go into something more. That was it. That was just

my comment about it. It goes viral and has I don't know between all of them a million views and and a lot of people were upset They're like, you can't just say something like that and not back it up. And there was a lot of that, and and a lot of people just upset that, you know, I would make such a claim without any You can't call someone a liar and have no you know, you know, evidence to it. So it took me a little bit. I was like, you

know what, they're right. So I came back out with a two and a half hour podcast talking about this exact subject, taking open source information from from Matt Byssinette to uh to your Guys' podcast to you know to not not my normal star witness but uh uh osalam Bin Lahan's wife, who was also in the room, actually makes a statement about what happened that night. Uh hate the hate to ruin a surprise ending. But everyone's story are all the

same except for one. So everybody's lying but Rob. Everyone everyone's note. Rob is the only outlier. And here everyone else has the same exact story about what happened that night, except except for the guy making millions off of it. I mean words like stolen valor being thrown around, but I don't

know, you can use your own words. So yeah, and I people should go check out that that podcast a deep dive that you guys did well in the podcast in general, because you guys cover a lot of really cool topics, because you talk about I mean a lot of first responder stuff. I mean, and you guys, you guys call out bullshit where you see

bullshit too, we do. But by I told him, although my my co host Tyler really uh he has you know, a very like of a you know, he loves punk rock and he has that he likes that co culture and he doesn't he doesn't mind mixing it up a little bit. Although ironically enough, uh, you know that that comment makes it looks like I'm I'm more than happy to stir things up. But the truth is, you

know, I stepped in it and then I had to own it. And I told you know, the you know, the Antihero podcast when I came on end of the day, I really want this to be a platform where we can tell the stories of first responders and I just don't think get told and and and there's always going to be the and we'll have those stories on fact. We have one coming on you know tomorrow with a cop that got that that took around and you know, got shot in the line of duty.

You know, that's very you know, very unique to any profession. You know, there's cops getting shot all over this country and it's a it's an epidemic, and it's it's it's horrible. But you know those those stories are out there. But let me take there are stories out there that paramedics and ambulance right you know, uh, you know, writers can can tell you that never get a voice and never get to tell you know, their

mind the worst stuff day in and day out. Kids and moms getting mangled in a car wreck, you know, on the way to you know, on the way to school. Just things that are that are horrible, but you know they you know, I just want to make I want to get a platform out there to where all first responders you know, can stories. Yeah that's fantastic. And yeah, I mean, like it's weird that reporting on police shootings, police being shot like it's gone way down, but police

are like getting shot down a lot out there right now. Two police officers and uh at in Orlando just just got shot a couple of weeks ago. And and here's and here's what's outside. Here's what's a really cool story. Usually when that happens, however, it's how it seems, is uh, you know, the suspect flees into a county or you know, or an area outside the swat team's jurisdiction. So it just just just the way it happens, not not not not not often enough does the local swat team whose

brother and sister you just shot get to go take care of it. But that's exactly what happened in Orlando. This guy holds up in a hotel still within the Orlando city limits, and the swat guys go to work, and uh, uh that that guy got got the good news that night. I guess I'm assuming he resisted arrest or had a had a had a gun he shouldn't have, and you know, and the good news is he doesn't have to go through the court system. He's already he's already Uh, he's already

got a sentence. And I got to send those guys a whole box of cigars with a handwritten letter, and I said, hey, you know, you know and enjoy this, you know, not you know, taking human life is obviously something you should you should should never be you know, taken lightly. But that being said, not not everyone here deserves this life, and I gave him just a long, heart a heartfelt letter that said,

like, you know, I've gone through doors. It worked out well tonight, but I know, yeah, I know what it feels like to not know how tonight's gonna work out right before that door opens, you know, and just you know, some SMaL kind of intimate stuff about it. And they loved it. They framed it, they smoked my cigars and you know, and they're back at it take, you know, removing bad guys from the streets, you know, every other night, and I love that about

SWAT teams. Yeah, Brent again, man, thank you for doing this tonight, And I just want to let people know we'll be back Monday with William Osgod who's a Special Forces in Vietnam. And then next Friday we're gonna have Robin Horsfall on the show, who was in SAS. So we're really

looking forward to talking to those two guys this upcoming week. Brent, any final thoughts before we wrap up tonight, No, I just again, I couldn't be any more humbled you guys have me on here and and thinking that my story is interesting enough to listen to me run my rap run my trap for a couple. Now, you were a great man. It was really fascinating. Uh and I really appreciate you doing this. Yeah, we deeply appreciate your time. What can are you on social media? Much? Can

people follow you if they're interested? I? Uh, some some habits I didn't want to break. The only social media have is is the business and uh and I keep it there. I didn't even want to learn that part of social media, but but I had to. There you go, that's cool. People can go check that out. So definitely, Uh, check out fur CC, first Responder coffee company, cigar company, and send a big KGNAC company h or a Servesi company. You'll figure something out, yeah

something Uh and check right out on the Anti Hero podcast. Yeah absolutely and uh yeah, like I said, hit us up when you're coming through New York sometime you want to light up. Some stogies will be around and everyone else out there. Have a nice weekend and we will see you on Monday. And RS, thank you, thank you. Just saw your donation. Thank you,