Army Special Missions Unit Medic | Uriah Popp | Ep. 299

Hey guys, it's Jack. I just wanted to talk to you today about a way that you can help support the podcast if you're not already to support the channel is to become a Patreon member. So we have Patreon memberships that start at just five dollars a month, and when you sign up, you get access to all of our episodes add free. That's the big bonus for that.

Special Operations Cobert ask me and I the Team House with your hopes, Jack Murphy and David Park Episode two and ninety nine. I'm Dave Park.

Jack is out right now we welcome our special guest, your Iyah Pot. Thanks for being here right, came all the way up to see us.

Deeply appreciate it.

Real quick, I'm gonna bang out our sponsor for tonight.

So let me tell you guys first, I am a very hot sleeper, like a miserably hot sleeper. I wake up my pillows soaking wet.

I have to have a fan on me if it's not at least sixty eight sixty five degrees. But if you sleep pot at night like I do, you know just how disruptive it could be. Whether you're having trouble falling asleep, you're waking up sweating in the middle of the.

Night, or all the above. That's where Ghostbed can help.

As the makers of the coolest beds in the world, Ghostbed is your go to for cooling mattresses, cooling pillows, and even cooling bedding. From their singure a ghost ice fabric to patented technology that just with your body temperature, every ghost Bed mattress is designed with cooling in mind.

So whether you want.

A plusure mattress that cushions your shoulders and hips, or a firmer option with exceptional support, your ghost Bed will keep you cool and comfortable all night long. When you purchase a Ghostbed mattress, your comfort is guaranteed. You can try out your mattress for one hundred and one night's risk free and make sure it's the right fit for you. Plus, they offer free shipping and most items ship within twenty four hours. If you are not sure which ghost bed

No, no, thank you.

So you know, we like to start this story off with your story, your origin story.

How did you grow up and what led you into the military. Oh, so that's a that's going way back. So I was.

I was born in a small town in Jasper called Jasper, Indiana. It's right next to French Lick, Indiana. If anybody knows Larry Bird. Okay, so Larry Birds from French Lick. Jasper's a little small town right beside of that. Grew up in a trailer next to my grandmother's house until that burned down. My my mom and dad ended up splitting up, and my mom moved to Florida and I went to beauty school where she met my current father and they

Well, I'm sure that your dad had Oh maybe he didn't, But did he have like like strong opinions about what you should do in the army, like what the best jobs would.

Be or anything like that.

Not really actually, probably like most I'll say, well, I don't want to generalize, but I'll speak for myself because I got three sons who have all served. They didn't want me to go in the military. The actually wanted me to go to school, and I didn't want to go to school. I wanted to get out of the house, you know. I think my general it was all about not staying at home. It was about getting out of the house as soon as possible, and the military was the way to go. I my dad actually swore me in,

So what year was this that you en listened? So I enlisted in ninety six, ninety six?

And what was it about being a medic or medicine that it appealed to you?

I wish I had a good story. It was it was the best choice of what was offered, right, you know, you got used to when you go to MEPs, they give you that print out and there was like four or five jobs on it and like you know, patroleum supplies specialists, like a lot of things that really didn't really sound great.

Yeah, so.

It sounded pretty good and it allowed me to get station of choice. So I picked that, and I'm actually glad I did. I fell in love with, you know, medicine, and I'm doing that still to this day.

So so you go out to be a medic at a twenty fifth ID, No.

So I initially started out at Tripler, Okay, So yeah, I got double lucky, right, I got Hawaii and then ended up in a hospital. And for anybody who served pre Gwatt, not everybody was excited about going to a field unit. Yeah, like because you were going to do field stuff and going to the field was not a cool place to be. Maybe it is now, but back then it kind of wasn't.

So I.

Went to a hospital, ended up being a er medic and got to learn a lot, had some great mentors there who I'd later go back and serve.

With so I did that.

But I did get a chance to go to twenty fifth like halfway through my tour there because it's an overseas tour, So I volunteered for an exchange program and then went to become a light infantry medic. So I switched units, went up to the twenty fifth, did twenty fifth things, go to Ariosoult School there and and I've got to be a field medic and get to learn

I imagine that pre Gyt.

I worked at Balboa for a very short period of time in the ear there, and I think that you know, pre Gyt, it was. It was a pretty cool place for a medic because you've got to do a lot of things that you know that somebody that's somebody that was like an EMT B and probably in any EMTP in some cases wouldn't get an opportunity if you had doctors that were really into teaching, you know, they'd teach you how to throw shooters, they teach you like tons of stuff.

One hundred percent I can distinctly remember. So when I transitioned, I exactly that. I had a doc who taught us like things like, uh, you know, shoulder reductions, when you put a shoulder out, that'll come into play doing uh yeah, just doing like in gtubes. You know, I got do CPR. You know, I got to do CPR and people who were in cardiac arrest, I got to sew people up, got to learn how to shoot your So you're you're

Yeah, that's really cool.

I would also say that there's probably no experience like a military er on pay day Fridays.

Oh yeah, especially in Hawaii and Marines, so you got marine based Connie. So I actually uh, I actually used to do the uh. I volunteered in the er to do the the midnight. It was a swing shift, so I got to have I think it was like Sunday, Mondays and tuesdays off, So I worked I think seven at night till seven in the morning on those days. So it was all the action.

Yeah.

Like and then Hawaii has a pretty large homeless population, and so you get to kind of I don't want.

To put this in the it's not a negative at all.

You actually get to work and take care a lot of homeless vets, and so I actually appreciated talking to them. It's kind of sad, you know, you'd get these routine homeless vets in and you kind of get to know them right at one instance, it's frustrating because you're like, oh, mister, such and such as here again, you know, but then on the other instance, you're like, how did this guy I can always remember, I mean to this day, it's like amazing, I can remember this, you know almost you know,

And and you.

Know, hindsight, they were probably doing it just to that social dynamic. It's like it was probably good for them. But they did that even though it was frustrating for us, it was probably good for them. And it's probably good for us that we did that for them. And we got to see, you know that what potential life can be like you know, so for sure.

So so you do your hospital time, you do a swap, you go to the infantry, and what was that like for you during a peacetime military.

So it was it was exactly that.

It was a lot. There's some things were fun, right, like road marches and things like that, just just pre I don't know if a lot of folks nowadays, you know, can relate to a garrison military, you know. I just you know, talking with d about that a little bit earlier, just like a garrison military wasn't necessarily a fun thing to experience if you were looking for excitement. I think that's a little bit of where we're at a little bit with some of our forces today. But yeah, I

And what was what was like T Triple C like at that point in time, And what kind of training were you guys getting from like your doctors at the clinic and.

Stuff like that.

It was non existent, right, Yeah, so back then it was oh man, what was the I think it was like at.

LS ALS ATLS protocols.

So two large ivs combat life favorite thing that was the combat It was like two leaders of fluids and some pseudo fed motrin, some ace wraps, all hospital grade equipment packed in a little trifold bag. And so yeah, there wasn't you did get mentorship. Actually, the pas at that time were still embedded in the AID station. It's no longer like that now. The Army medical system has changed.

So but your soap notes fre on point right.

One hundred percent.

Yes, So after after your time in the with the twenty fifth, what what was next for you?

So?

Yes, so my tour was up, getting close to the end. It's time to my re enlist.

You know.

I had my first three years and so went to the retention NCO and there wasn't a lot of stuff that was offered, and I wanted to try something else. So they had different asis, additional skill identifiers medics could get and so a surgical tech. So I actually liked doing the minor procedure stuff. So I went and did an ASI to be a surgical tech. Ahead next surgical tech. Very unsexy job. There's only like at the time, I think there was ninety of them in the whole inventory.

Yeah, you know.

And and so as a young I think at the time, i'd maybe turned you know, I was in my early really early twenties, maybe twenty one or something like that. And so, so yeah, and the and I wasn't really liking that job, to be quite honest, And so I didn't stay at Fort Lewis very long and at the time, my dad had gotten orders to go to Third I D. And so I think I either did an extension or

They left class.

And we man, you just sparked this memory. I forgot about it. We end up doing gate guard detail. They put it, what was it, like the threat Con Delta or whatever. I think all posts went to like threat Con Delta. We got issued, you know, I think it was like one magazine with it. May have had been you may have got thirty rounds.

I don't know.

And everybody was on gate guard duty. We're doing gate guard duty rotations and so yeah, so that's nine to eleven. I want to be part of that. So and I think everybody did. And so my dad had just gotten orders to third I D.

Every day I was in.

It wasn't really a critical MOS, you know, and it wasn't it's not even a deployable MS. So they've gotten rid of a lot of the non deployable the a SI, the a SI non deployable A Yeah.

I was wondering if that locked you in.

It did, and so yeah, so that's actually how I went to the Special Operations medic program.

So so I was.

In this non deployable MOS. I'll just fast forward it for the sake of time. I get to third I D. My dad. I think he was the Division Targeting officer third I D at the time, he was on the

So this is around the two thousand and three time frame.

Yeah, so this is you know, fast forward a little bit. Yeah, so yeah, around two thousand Yeah, when yeah, whenever they pushed, he was actually there a little bit earlier. I think he was doing something in Kuwait or something, and then they they maybe they knew they were already going to push them over. And so I went to my CSM and I was like, hey, I want to deploy, and he was like, no, go back to your clinic, right, and so you know, I was like, well, this this sucks,

So I called no what.

I put a one sixtieth packet in and at the time, I was, I think a pretty good soldier. I promoted really fast. I made E five in Hawaii in two years. I had already went to the board and won like Soldier of the Year stuff like that, into our n CEO of the year, and so I made E six

What is that?

And they're like, well, you'll have to go to Special Operations medic course to do it. And I was like, okay, that that sounds awesome.

Yeah.

I was kind of wanting to do that anyways, and so so they're like, okay, well we'll put you on orders and and send you to SOCCAM and I was like, I was like perfect. And so because I had won like n CEO of the Year, I got I like what I asked to go to Airborne School because they were like, you know, you're kind of representing the command and they give you like, hey, what what can what do you want to do?

Some fun this little tree. Yeah.

So that so I, you know, got to go to I had been to airborne school and like the basic like cool guy badge stuff for like the conventional military, and so so I went to soccerm So I went to soccam as an E six and then you know, I did a full you know, the full back then it was still a six month course. Right now I believe it's nine unless it's changed. And then additionally, if you went through the Civil Airs program, was another three

And then I got to the unit at Bragg.

So at the time it was only one battalion. It was the ninety sixth Civil Fairs Battalion.

It had all been guard up unto that point, right, no.

So, yes and no, so ninety five percent of the force was was I believe reserve.

Okay, I believe reserve.

There was one active battalion there were ninety six. It was on brag It was right by the GB clubs, right in the right behind there there's one building and there was what was there Alpha through Foxtrot Company, and every company had an uh a geographic area of responsibility. So when I got there, I got Echo Company. So Echo Company was kind of unique. Echo Company was the SMU support company, so they were the ones who supported

Absolutely we men, you get my affairs in order and done. Yeah.

So so yeah, so that was that was that was pretty interesting. So so that now I've told you my backround, right, so.

So real good because you go through the SOCCAM and for people who might not know that's the trauma portion. For special operations, I think even SF, that's their trauma portion. They go off and do the rest of their veterinarian and hospital and stuff like that.

But for civil affairs, you guys have a mission.

It's very similar I think to the SF right so to the SF mission because you guys do need to know how to test water and and do things more, you know, outside of trauma. So was there additional medical training for you guys for like that portion of it being like a medical support on top of the trauma stuff.

Yes, so what Yeah, so I would say that we complement, right, So we are you know, kind of like this a support element that brings a capability to uh to A to an ODA. And so the training we go back through their dental block. Okay, So we went through their dental block, their veterinary block, and then we had our own that was our own blocks that were field sand heavy. So it's all about you had to go through food inspection.

So it's yeah, it's taught at the time.

It was actually taught by a Sierra sixty eighth Sierra, which is a prevented med specialist, and so it was it was all once you did those blocks, we're learning how to work with animals and basically pulling people's teeth and things like that. The dental blocks, then you got the field sand blocks and so yeah, so those are some of the things that you can kind of complement and help a team out with, right, A lot of the rapport building.

Right, So for people who might not be aware of it, can you tell us what civil affairs is, why, why it's under so calm or you know, what's their mission?

Oh boy, so caveat.

If I'm doing a disservice, just know it's my recollection

But really you're just they're small teams. People may not know that. So they're a cat a team.

Is what I was on is a for man team that used to have It's not like this anymore. That's it's a important is distinction. I guess my generation of being on a civil affairs team. So you had a medic, an engineer, a weapons guy who was eleven bravo, and then you had an officer and so time my tenure there is when basically SF needed all the SF guys back because that battalion was all SF guys and they

There's very few Deltas left in the.

Battalion, and then we were backfilling them. So I don't know if I got to the answer your question. It's a roundabout way they're.

So what I'm taking away from it is that Civil affairs is, you know, we talk about special forces being hearts in mind, civil affairs is really kind of the backbone of that.

Hearts and mind.

So it's a lot of the civilian engagement and in the counterinsurgency strategy, it's the idea to win over the population and help create that sort of area denial, not necessarily through force, but through through goodwill building exactly.

And so I think where we come in.

And I can remember at the time they were talking about the phases of opera military operations, so going from phase three combat operations to phase four, which is I think support and stability. So that's kind of that transition from combat operations to support and stability. It's kind of the nation rebuilding, establishing government, governments and things like that. So you're exactly right. So that's kind of honestly, we

That was like, that was a thing. I believe, I understand, I understand why.

And it's it's it's it's funny because I can remember the seventh I can remember, so we were attached to UH. I think it was seven two three. I could be wrong, but a lot of those guys so they were getting there. You know, those guys were their army guys. There were all boy scouts at the end the day, right, collecting like badges and and flair, and they were worried about it. And like I can remember, like the guys who didn't get a CIB yet, they were like, like, we need to like get into something.

Right, we right, get somebody shoot at us? Yeah, yeah, let's just drive down this road and see what happens. It's like moving the contest. Yeah, let's let's recombin.

High so so yeah, And if you remember Afghanistan at that time, you know, like you know, I did a lot of time. Well I guess a lot of time is relative, but I did I think five tours four or five tours there at that time in two thousand and four. It's a highlux pickup truck, two dudes and

Balls, yeah, you know, all that kind of stuff.

You know it is. And you're going out with the ODA too because they're you know, they're trying to maintain their maneuver. Well, yeah, yeah, there's a.

There's a no I get it though, but yea, yeah exactly. I mean it's one of those things where if you don't use it, you lose it, right, If you're not getting out there and actually controlling and showing presence, then encroachment, encroachment happens, and and things.

Like that and if and like again, like back in that we were still handing out the green matches with the picture of Osama bin Laden on it, like asking everybody if they knew hre Islama had been Laden was like probably everybody else, right, right, And so it's you know, it's that period of time where they're like, no, we don't know who that dude is, but can we have some jackets?

So I have to ask you this because it's kind of funny to me.

And you know, like you say, a lot of civil fairs used to be made up of long in the tooth, you know, SF guys who had a lot of experience, you know, working with indigenous cultures, doing foreign internal defense, things like that, and then they need those guys back, understandable, and so they backfilled them with rangers in eighty second who probably aren't known for their civilian engagement, you know, strategies.

How did that all work out? So I think it.

I think because we didn't have a lot of seasoned fighters, like to our people were seasoned combat veterans. Maybe that's a better way to say it's seasoned veterans. It was all new to all of us. And I actually didn't go to the qualification course till between my first and

So you can still get on the Chicken Street or whatever and buy buy rugs or buy.

Yeah, exactly.

So it was just I think, a different time, and so I think that at least I didn't.

I didn't. I didn't.

It didn't seem to be an issue. It didn't seem it didn't seem to be an issue. And I never I didn't think, you know, SATs, because we had like my team sergeant was a I think he was a first battalion ranger and he had already deployed with the with the battalions to Afghanistan, and I didn't expe aperience guys who were just overly aggressive wanting to like not do their task right and try to like get it on. Yeah, And so you know, it just seemed to I guess,

It's kind of fun when you're doing that though, because you also like there's not an overbearance of leadership at that point in time.

You're kind of creating your own missions. You know that nobody is sitting there with their thumb on you. So really, whatever you guys come up with, like that's your Yeah it is.

And and you know, like I've had con op parties and I remember the pain of conops and getting improved. But you're exactly right. Then it was just like, hey, where are we going to go tomorrow?

Yeah?

Okay, And we would go somewhere almost every day. Yeah, and just drive, you know, go to the next place, go to the next place. So yeah, it was really just like where what we seen of value being nested with their plans and their objectives, the oda's plans, and just trying to support them the best we could.

And to to to kind of just really develop the area, because I think that's the other component.

So at this point in time, since this is all fairly new, uh and not just you know, like the civil affairs. Civil affairs had been there, but did the did the ODA know how to best implement you guys or were you both learning together?

I think we were learning together to be to be quite honest, I think that we was a little bit more natural from us than the SYOP guys. So they had a SIOP team attached as well, so they kind of had the full package. So you had I think they had their an intel team attached to them. They had a syop team and they had a civil affairs team, and we were all at Camp tice So and De ra Wu you know, down by Kandaheart and so I think with them they didn't really know how to implement them.

You know, uh, ketamine use.

That was the big thing. That's one of the biggest things. He had wrote some papers. Just a phenomenal eighteen delta who just really made the best of the time and experience and honing his skills and then taking me under my wing and or under his wing, and just we ran a great clinic there and uh just really we got to see a lot of things and experience a lot of things. I did my first field amputation.

Wow, it's amazing. Yeah, I wanted to do another one.

I probably it's probably good thing I didn't because the I remember the ODA commander. So this guy came in. I don't know, I think he got bit by a dog or something, but you could tell his leg was septic and I needed to go and I wanted to take his leg off, and the Odia Carener was like here right, I know, he's like if he dies here, that's a problem for me. So no, so we ended up didn't do that. But I another time a kid got his hand cut and a cotton a fan belt

Got to learn some lessons.

I remember this one time, this old lady came in with her ear in her hand and a dog had bitten her ear off, and so me, the great like suture person, I thought I could sew that back on, and so I get like it was beautiful too, like I had approximated all the edges perfectly and lined everything up like so did. And then the you know, the Jeremy came in and he's like, hey, man.

What are you doing. I'm like, I'm sewing these ladies ear on it.

He's like what And I had like the ear canal like I had, like, you know, both exteriorly and interior. He's like, dude, there's no blood supply to that.

What are you doing?

And so I was like, oh.

Okay. He's like, okay, do this.

He's like take that back off and just take what left the skin and just close it up the best you can and then let me take a look at it when you're done. So I did that. But you know, so I got to like make some mistakes, I guess you could say so.

Because of like the cartilage and what not, like there's no way to hear.

Yeah, not at my skill right, and then not the post care right.

So that's the other thing that's like a clastic surgeon level type of thing.

Yeah, I think it's it's way beyond something I should do. But you know, that's all, that's all they had. And and even the guy whose hand he didn't he did. Man, he came back like he was supposed to come in daily for dressing changes is what we told him. We taught him how to do it like if he needed to, and he was supposed to come back and he did, and he came back infected and I think we had to put him on some more antibiotics too.

But yeah, it was just a great That trip.

Was just a great, a great rate, a great trip that I honed my skills as being a field like a forward medic and getting to like do some extra stuff.

Do you have any any funny stories from like the Tailgate Medicine, because I feel like when you would the like the village, like I don't know the right terminology. I don't remember anymore, but basically they had sort of witch doctors in a way, but it wasn't witch doctor, but but like some of their home remedies were were pretty bizarre.

Yeah, I mean kind of the a lot of STDs treating oddly enough. Yeah, you know, you'd eventually tease it out. It's like it's burning when ipe, and so you know, then it's like you already had the pill packs like made up for him. Okay, here, here's your pill pack. And then I remember my team leader he was like taking a liking to it, and like we were running out of vitamins, so everybody wanted I think it was

And we were getting ready.

To load up, and so I had reached in my cargo pocket and there's all these kids, like they're just all doing them.

You do things with them.

You'd be like, listen to the port you did, you know, put your hand, hands up, put your hands down, like practicing the language and stuff. And so I got I reached in the pocket. They've seen what was in my hand. So there's all these kids there, and some of these kids are holding kids babies.

Right, because that was the other weird thing.

You see like five year olds carrying a baby like that's not normal. So I throw the candy up in the air, right, So what happens They d they start dropping babies.

There's all these babies falling in the rocks.

And I'm like, oh man, what did I just do.

You're a horrible human being.

I'm just kidding.

No. Yeah, so oh man, So that yeah, that was that was Yeah, that was pretty funny. Well it was. It was not funny, but it was like it was like, yeah, people were laughing, Yeah, what are you doing?

It's funny.

It was on the babies like yeah they were yeah yeah yeah.

So how long was that first deployment for you?

So the first trip, I want to say it was an eighth I think it was an eight or nine month trip where the regional rotations. But I came in I think a month late. They needed to fill out the rest of the teams and we had graduated. That's why they needed medics in that company because they were already on over there. And so I think the first one was I think I ended up doing six or seven months.

Okay, and so you come back and then you go through the Civil Affairs qualification course or the yeah.

So then I yeah, so it came back, went to the qualification course and I think I went through seer. I think my team startant was like hey you need to go through SYR. So I went through c r C.

And what was what was the civil affairs portion of that LIE because you'd already been through the medical portion, So what was this like Hearts and Minds Peace.

It was a lot of for the I forget what they're called. It's a different mission set. So it's like it's more of the stuff. It's more of like the higher level where you're so like an embassy team. Okay, so later I did some an embassy team trip. So it's much more working with government governance and things like that, learning what a what a Bravo team does? You know what a cat be does and things like that or man, I forgot, I forget what the name of the teams

Yeah.

Interesting, So you know if that ever changed it all where they made it that where they created more of a tactical or at least added.

Like the tactical curriculum to that. I don't know, but that's kind of it would be.

I don't know where it's at today, to be quite honest. So it became it's a MOS. So that's we'll get to that portal story. But basically I had to leave civil affairs because they were becoming their owen own MOS, and you had a choice convert to a civil affairs MOS or leave that organization.

And so would that would that have been like an eighteen delta in a way that it would have been a civil affairs MOS with like a medical.

So yeah, they you're exactly right.

So essentially, just like it's an ASI, so it's a it's a thirty I believe it was a thirty eight.

Bravo Civil Affairs sergeant.

I think they were called and then you got I think I was a whiskey too, So we're whiskey ones or we were which is a sock them a special Operations combat medic and then the active component because they created other battalions, they were growing it because of the need of in Iraq and Afghanistan, they created their own MOS and then they I think the only thing specialized

Yeah.

I do, there's but there's obviously, you know, there's no.

There's there's.

I don't know how they could replace the most institutional knowledge and the operational experience of eleven Bravo right right, You know, when you have an E seven with fifteen years as a guy and ranger of battalion, or even the eighty second for that matter, there's just basic principles of security that they know and when you're talking about small unit tactics, right, And I think that's where it got a little bit dangerous, and so they had to they've had to have have mitigated that liability.

Yeah.

No, it makes sense too, because you know, even though civil affairs isn't like a DA four, if you're out in the back country somewhere doing something in a semi permissive environment, at any point in time, that format element for a personal element may you know, may need to react to contact you know, or may need to and be good at it, good enough to you know, to at least if even with they're if they're with an a team, to not so slow the team down or you know, take care of their own.

Yeah.

And I think again, like so I transitioned before that started. But I think that probably you know, you asked me

Right?

So I think it may have been easier than for us to kind of to integrate with them.

It makes sense.

I mean, if you have a guy show up and he's wearing the Civil Affairs or you know, the you know so compacts or whatever, but he's got a scroll as a combat passion, it's like, okay, like or even with the eighty second, you know, if he's got a you know, a combat action badge with an eighty second, like, you look at them a little bit differently than just somebody who may have only come up through that to that pipeline.

It and it's again not to take anything away from it with the and I'm sure there's you know, they've worked through that. I would have to believe that they would have to figure that out to mitigate the experience they lost from taking people because you got again and initially, like you said, started with people long in the tooth. Yeah, eighteen series guys and some of those guys like that were on our teams. You know, they I mean some of these guys they were I know, they were well

It may have degraded.

But it was the requirement you have to row, right, the army had to grow to be able to meet the demands and the requirements of two theaters of operations and the support requirements, because like we thought we were transitioning out of those places when you think in two thousand and eight, nine, ten, I mean they were they were talking about pulling out of those places in those that those time frames, and so you know, there was a lot of you know, in the surge, right, the

So so you do your first trip, you go and you do the civil Fiars training and now another trip to Afghanistan.

Yep, so I did so. Yeah, so I did the first trip on a regional. Then that was my second trip. I was attacked. I think it was two seven five initially and then three seven five, and so we were they used to be directly attached to the ranger regimen, but then it kind of they peeled them away, like the early days of the were some of the first teams that were in they were I think directly attached. We were still attached, but now it was more you know, it's take on versus I forget like it.

So, were there two separate chains of command then if you guys weren't directly attached.

No, So that's the weird thing about seeing being a civil affairs guys and kind of the identity of you. Right, they're like you live always being attached to somebody else, right, So you're not with your company, especially on those on the tactical teams that were doing the the SMU support. Your your your four man team is directly attaching to whatever the rangers to see or whatever wherever Jaysock wants to put you. And so you are no, you're, you're.

I see, I see. So so how was that then? Had the Rangers already been working with civil fairs? Did they did they know how to best utilize you guys?

Yeah?

They yeah, And I'll describe what that was like. So working with them, you're pretty much or I'll say my experience, My experience was not a lot of stuff on target. You did every all of the cleanup.

You're.

My job was to go in and make things right. So that was it's actually pretty It was actually pretty dangerous at times, to be quite honest, because they had just hit a compound whatever, how many other people died, tore everything up, broke and everything. So my job was to go in with two other guys, you know, maybe maybe another humbye, so two trucks that we knew that was a good target, and then try to make it right. And you basically had a backpack pull of money out

So then we're doing.

Animals. You basically buy livestock and you give them to them and so so. And that was the case of my second deployment, and on the second one, the the medic who needed to.

No I returned back.

So yeah, so I finished that. When out, it was mainly working for the regiment, mainly doing damage mitigation, you know, doing Slasha payments and working with TSC folks. I think the diatocer, I forget what it's called. There's this own little.

Section yeah, in the compound.

Yeah, and so that's a whole other, really cool thing is probably not appropriate.

Talking, you know, it's it's interesting that you bring up sort of the damage mitigation and how like there is an assigned value to life out there and and it's a little bit different. I think if you know, if people were to hit a target and an innocent people were killed, which which I don't I don't know that

There's a way to like say, make it right.

I remember we went on target one time and it was a legitimate target, but there was a very old guy on the target and while we were you know, doing the questioning and the bit and stuff like that, he had a heart attack and you know, ar medic tried to resuscitate him, couldn't resuscitate him and called it and somebody came up with money and they're like, hey, we're really sorry about this, and the family was like, he wasn't taken as medication, he's been having pain.

Like it was just.

Yeah, so on that I think it was that trip. So so a lot of it was from air, from casts, so it was kids like these, I mean babies, So they have a full list. So it's everything from kids people. You know, you're not just talking about not just direct any time close air support came in or or a

Within three days, right, No, twenty four hours. Twenty four hours, Okay, then the culture.

Has to be buried within twenty four hours. So one we were trying to figure it out. So I'm like, hey, I want to see this body, and we.

End up being.

It was like it could be a military age male, but you could tell it was, you know, just by pubic cair and things like that. You can be like, Okay, this kid's maybe twelve to thirteen years old, you know, and they're smaller folks.

Yeah.

Anyways, so it's like, okay, we need we need to figure this out. So we coordinated the logistics and found a unit to drive us out there. And I think it was ended up being like the uh, the Princess's infantry. For it was like the Canadian had owned the space where we needed to go. So it was like we coordinated get this body out there. And and it's kind of a sad story.

The kid.

The kid, it was actually mentally i think retarded, you know, and he was running at the guy and they had told him stop, you know, put your hands up and stop, and with all the chaos going on, he just kept running at him and they shot him. And you know, so we, you know, through translators, stopped to talk to the village elder and his family and explained to him, you know what happened. You know, they perceived him as a threat, and we want to make this right. You know,

I feel that a lot of that had to do with Poshtune Wally, you know, with you know the fact that you know a lot of these tribes and a lot of these families they were like the hat Fields and the Kois, and there had to be a way to stop the cycle of violence between them, and so the blood price was it was a really it was very real thing for them in order to you know, to to knock that off.

And you know, it's just it's it's it's a very interesting part of that culture. Yeah.

Yeah, So how was that for you on that trip that you weren't really practicing medicine as much? Obviously was it was very strenuous and probably interesting job.

But were you missing the medicine at all?

I think most medics downrange gravitate in their downtime two because you know, you need to help out right. Yeah, So especially the smaller base the smaller the base you're on, you there's an unsaid expectation that that's where you are. You're there, You introduce yourself, you tell them, and you kind of keep your skills up and you help them out so.

You can go into like their clinic and do or whatever and absolutely do whatever you could do.

Yeah, anything from just routine sick call to an I D happens and so you're kind of called and then you're kind of updated on their alert. Mosters, you introduce yourself, yea, they know who you are, so when something happens, and yeah, but yeah, for the most part, because let me try to think. I think at that time we were with the Rangers.

So yeah, that that.

That trip was there, and so I want to say that we weren't doing anything because no, because they had a Charlie med that's right. So Cows had a Charlie MED which is essentially a it's like a I guess, yeah, if you will. Yeah, so they have as much capability, so you go over there and introduce your to self. But for the most part they have enough.

Yeah.

Is that like a field surgical team Yeah, FST or whatever.

Yeah, it's like a it's like a BAT plus yeah. Yeah, because they have X ray capability, they have everything.

Okay, So how long was that trip?

So those were short rotations so that we were on the same rotational cycle as the battalion, So I believe they were I want to say ninety to one hundred and twenty days I believe at the timeframe, so it was three to four month rotations. So I did a couple of those throughout the two thousand and five I did two to three rotations, and then I was there.

To fast rope back in. So this is.

They had already happened, and I think they were it's at the time period where they I think they were doing a lot of the remains recovery stuff. And long story short, our tasking was to do a lot of the money stuff with the guy who was basically protecting I guess Marcus and.

The team leader.

He was older as guy and he just wasn't fit and just couldn't.

It was just it was it was a brutal environment. Yeah.

Yeah, And so they had spun us up to come in early. So we came in early. We didn't end up going to the site, but we just had finished up the backside support to buy all the animals. I think that was the end. We end up giving a bunch of like animals. If I remember didn't want my recollection. I don't know what really happened. My recollection is we bought animals and had them had them delivered.

Interesting, So what was.

If you guys didn't go in like you would spun up early to go support that you didn't actually go in.

What was the rest of that trip like for you? So the rest of that rip at that time.

We got spun up for that, but we were no longer attached to the regiment. Now we were attached with the seals, but they put us in the J three IO okay, And so that's the information operation. So you're part of the three shop working doing more of the with the t S folks. And so.

We we would we did the same thing.

But this time for the Salt Force. At that time it was the guys from the beach rotating in and out, and so we did the same type of payments damage mitigation for them. And so, so were you out of Cobble at that point in time? Now we were at we were at so we were at the compound on Bogram.

That's yeah, yeah, yeah, sorry said Cobble, but yeah Bogram, Yeah okay. So so then how because how would you guys work the payments out of Bogram Because that task force went everywhere in country, So there are a lot of places you guys aren't going to drive to. Ring flights, okay, ring flights. Yeah, it's it's kind of like you hitched a ride on anything. It was like reflecting back on it, it was like we had to figure it out.

It wasn't like it was arranged for us. So so if if we needed to go and it was in the oda's battle space, then we would go over to Camp Vans, go to see Jasota, tell them we need to get over here. Then we would catch a flight to Candahart and Candahar get on a ring flight, or if there was a convoy going out. You're just it's it's like you're a hitchhiker with an objective to do. So it's it's really kind of crazy.

That is well, so for those of you, you guys can probably get it through context. But ring flights were basically just the patterned you know, flights from base to base a lot of times supplies or personnel pick up and drop off, but they were scheduled flights. It would be like it'd be like hopping on a rail line and trying to get to one city and then hitchhiking to another city to get to where you need to go to.

It is, and sometimes they would already have another tasking for you, like hey, this just happened over here. We need you guys to hurry up and get back and we're like, okay, we got to find.

A round, like we have no assets to do that.

Yeah, so it wasn't like we had vehicles, right, like we're just a team and a tenth and it's like you're on a page or which was like okay, this just happened, we need you to go do this or yeah.

So it's it was, yeah, it was kind of fine to me.

Also in a way though it seems kind of fun. It's like it's like it's like being a hobo on a train, right, it's like the open air.

It's like it's fun until it's not fun, right, and I'll tell you when it's not fun. So we got with the Royal Princess Infantry.

So well it was it was down.

It was down in kandaharto summer. Oh no, no, no, it wasn't in Candahart. It was some I don't know what they're called. It was it was smaller than.

A cop Okay.

Well, it's like basically like you're out there and just these little tents, well they're not little tents. I can't even just describe them. But we we end up getting stuck there for a week. So it's you know, just living out of a small rock. But it was like we were it was hot as ship and they kept us outside and so we were like laying on these hot rocks on cars board. I got pictures of it. It's crazy. So to get patting, we like broke down

Get back up to Bogrum.

And so yeah, there were some times that were just like it was like being a hobo. You're there, like who are you guys, and what are you here for? And we're like, well, we we just finished, you know, taking care of a tasking. But now we got to get back. So you guys got anything going back? And it'd be like, yeah, we got you know, we have some you know, some strike you know, whatever vehicle we gotta cut, you know, we got to police, you know, some MP's going back. So you just hey, can we

So so.

Anything, if anything interesting happened, I mean, if that you want to cover on that trip, feel free.

If not, we can fast forward.

Not a whole lot. I did get to discover a so so we had a payment for the seals.

So it was out in Frau.

I don't know if you know where fra It's like right by the Iranium border.

Yeah, I believe. So there was a.

An ODA there and I won't say what group they're from and so we showed up and so I'll describe them though, because it's funny and maybe you can relate to it, and maybe some folks can relate to it. So they had a hit, right they ended up. I think it was one of those stories where like the daughter picked it was like some prominent person and I think the Agriculture department or something just a government official will just leave it at that, end up hitting the house.

So we fly out in.

Our linkup is with the with the ODA out there, and so we you know, do the trip, you know, mister Toad's wild ride from Bogram to Candahar can get to the Ring flights and we end up in space camp way out here in the middle of nowhere. And we get there and like these.

It's like mad Max. These there's like an oh, they've native.

So these dudes had made and welded choppers. So they took these like hundred I don't know, the hundred cc like I don't not even like hondas. They're like piece of crap motorcycles, and so they got them all raked out, and they're these dudes in like little shorts, no shirt, yoked out of their mind on these like choppers riding around. We're like, why in the fuck is going on here? And they're pissed. They're like, you just caused us a

Yeah, like Colonel Kurtz back there, like yeah, I.

Mean the sweetest gym, Like the sweetest gym with like a guy like making your proteins.

I'll never forget.

Like we go into the gym and it's like it's exquisite, right, It's not your like jail house gym with like cinder blocks like your typical one.

Yeah, it's like really nice and.

Like there's like an afghan in there, like making like protein smoothies for everybody. And I'm like, guys riding these like sons of anarchies.

Yeah, yeah, it was. Yeah.

That that that must have been challenging though, for them and for other Battle Space owners especially conventional.

That you know, sometimes Task Force or or other units, you know, any DA units would.

Make a mess, and and generally that mess was deserved, right. Maybe occasionally it wasn't, but generally it was it was deserved. And if they start receiving fire and they start calling in casts, you know, things happen.

But for the battle space owner who doesn't have really have any.

Control over that, and who who doesn't who does see it as a catastrophic loss of rapport when maybe they didn't really actually have rapport. They just the problems weren't right there in their face or whatever. But but they did have to go in and clean that up a lot of times.

Yeah, and you're exactly right. And I'll on that same trip a different place back back to Cowst. I believe that eighty second owned it at the time. And so another part of our job was detainee release. So you know, you had the TSCF, I think it's called bray Screen Facility Holding facility, whatever it is TSF. Our job was

A toll.

Bullshit story with pictures and everything to go with it. And here's what just happened in your space, and here's what's going on. And so so that was kind of I think sometimes we're the left hand didn't talk to the right. Maybe it's to buy design and intentional, and I think it was. And I think there's certain things that people need to know and they don't need to know.

But it's you know, yeah, I mean would it would Would it be because they they thought that they'd flipped the guy, or because they he wasn't even though he may have been an ID facilitator, he was they had his like, they had his number, and they were waiting for him to unwittingly lead them to a fatter target.

I think that's what one hundred percent was all the time. Yeah, it was for the most part. It's just hey, they'd already got him, and you do this task force.

And then yeah, you get to go free.

It's almost like cops, right, Yeah, it's like, Okay, we got you on a small yeah, we'll we'll we'll flip you. You go catch us a bigger fish. Yeah, and we'll make this good.

But generally, I don't know, I have mixed feelings.

About that because I especially for the idea, those guys were so difficult.

To to prosecute.

They were not as targets but as criminals because they generally weren't going to pick.

Up weapons during fights.

They they knew that there probably wasn't you know, a lot on them, and and you know, units would roll those guys up two and three times, put them into the you know, the American system, the Afghanian system, or the Iraqi system, and then those guys would be back out on.

The street and no time, flat back doing business.

And they're not the ones out there digging the holes and put the IDs in. That's some farmer who's getting paid you know, twenty bucks, fifty bucks.

Yeah, it was a very challenging environment for sure. Yeah.

So how long roughly was that deployment them?

So I think at that time those were those were I want to say one twenties. Okay, I think those were just four months.

Yeah, but you guys weren't on their rotation because they are on like you know, red, green, yellow cycle, whatever cycles are on, they're on.

And but you guys are small, you know, you guys have to match.

Every Sometimes we would sometimes we win. Sometimes. I think once we switched from directly supporting direct attachment to the to like the the units that made up the task force to direct these being a task Force asset, then it was much more fluid. You just you know, you had a two day rip. Yeah, and then you know, you just everybody goes up, meets in bogram, do a high five, they go, you stay and you instantly or are back on. So I believe we were on one

And I think another part of that too is is I don't think that I'm not saying always, but I don't think generally it's it's with the impetus to mislead Americans. It's that there is a full blown propaganda war going on with the Taliban, and you know, they're out there saying we're using human shields. They're out there, you know, saying these things, and you can't give them these victories of shooting down a here an aircraft.

And vice versa. I think when some of our folks something happens, So I think you're you're spot on it. And I experienced that we talked about a little bit early. I experienced that myself in a later deployment. So I agree with you that it's it seems nefarious and ill intentioned and ill will behind it. The reality is there's a strategic that we're not playing checkers here, We're playing chess, and so it's a bigger narrative that ties into you know,

On now, It's I'm in Afghanistan by probably maybe two thousand seven or eight, I'm not sure. Like they were very good at and I'm not saying there were no civilian casualties in Afghanistan, because there were, but they were very good at saying that teams had gone out and just killed all these kids and everybody on target. And I'm talking about casts, I'm talking about bullets to the head execution style, and and international across they would shut

And you know, and that was so in Candahar.

You might take all this ground and push you know, the Taliban out, you know, but then the Taliban say, hey, execution on this target, and battle space would get shut down. International across go out do their investigation, and the Taliban would all move back in.

You know. So there was very much.

A propaganda war going on at all times. Being in uh in the J three io, were you ever privy to any sort of theoretical good idea of fairy stuff that just having been out there on the ground, you knew was not gonna fly.

Not that I can not that I can think of. There's a lot of like, uh, interesting technical things that they employ. Again that and I'm sure you're probably aware and some of those you question those like you're gonna do what and put that and where and they're not going to find that, you know, like but but yeah, so I mean other than things like that, no, none

And to be fair, the military has you know, whether it's a sexual assault under a command or like, the military does have this history of covering up its mistakes, so it's very hard sometimes to tell when it's a cover up and when it's when it is like legit sort.

Of IO operations.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, So how long were you on this rotation of these unit of this task force?

So I did a few of Afghanistan and then the next and then the surge happened, So I did that pretty much consistently. And then two thousand and seven is when every got is when the mass flow of troops went to Baghdad for the surge, and so I think that was spring, okay, spring of seven.

And did you say that you were with the eighty second at that point?

So at that time we all got pulled off of our regional mission. I guess it was a higher precedence, and so we let me think about this. We had additionally the civil affairs had additionally split, so they didn't get a bunch of new people, but they basically cut the battalions in half, and so the ninety six became the ninety sixth and ninety seventh, and then the ninety sixth and ninety seventh became the ninety six, seventh and ninety eighth, and so I had moved to the ninety seventh.

Going to Iraq.

So for the most part, there was a couple guys on regional trips in Africa, but for the most part, and maybe some down in South America, but for the most part, folks were going to Iraq to be part of the surge.

And how how was that for you after you know, working with Task Force, working Rangers, Seal Team six and now you're going to the eighty second.

That was horrible And it was horrible because I think, well one that time in Iraq was horrible. I think it was horrible for a lot of people. It was it was the heights of the casualties. If I think that again, like I don't know exact numbers, but I think we were about tracking about one hundred deaths service members a month at the time period of the height. And so I was assigned to Solder City. So I Solder City and I lived at the police station there.

And I heard Solder City. Was that nice that time of year?

Yes? No, that was not a Yeah, that was a dangerous place.

Yeah.

And so interestingly I loved my dad was also in theater at the same time. Was he still with three Idea or where was he was still at Third I D at the time? No, I think he was. I could be wrong. He was either with Third ID or with First I D because one of the one of the units I think it was Third ID. But so he was at I don't know what main base he was at, but I was. We were working. Our headquarters element was in Taji and then we lived at the

So you had a.

Jammer for the remote detonade, and then you had the drop arm thing that I forget what it did, but but essentially like you had this weird like hodgepodge of vehicle with welded glass oliver. So people were like welding and up armboring their own stuff because at the time, I mean it was horrific, like deep buried mines where

So it's very it's very frustrating to hear this because you know they also did this in Afghanistan where they would put a small number of soldiers out at some cop in the middle of nowhere with no support and basically allow you know, the Taliban to just come in and you know, they'd put them in low ground, they wouldn't give them a SoLIT tact position, you know, and and they would just allow the Taliban to kick the shit out of these guys day after day after day.

Speed you know, speed limit.

Like these these are people, honestly that need to be called the carpet and answer for their sins.

Yeah, so it's funny you mentioned that. So it was if you remember where we were again, not that it doesn't matter the politic aspect of it, but I think the nation wanted us out, and so we had specifically an embedded reporter with my four man team and I so in Solder City. So why we were doing this so in this like two streets in Jamira, I think

So that was our job.

Like so it was in I don't want to get off the story, but I think, and here's one of my frustrating parts about being a Civil Affair soldiers. Success was measured on how much money in projects you spent now your effect and so you think about you know, and that's one of the things that you know, like

Yes, Sutter City, and you know, and Mada like he was, he was a piece of work, you know, because he would get his jashm Nahdi.

You know, they had.

Openly hostile you know, openly aggressive US elements would go in and just start kicking ass, you know, doing hits, you know whatever.

And then at the point in time.

That we you know that that the US would gain some ground in there, you know, he would pull out the I'm a cleric, I'm a holy man.

Let's you know, let's work.

There like and and and this would be the story that would play is you know he's a holy man, he's you know, he's a mulla and and and so US forces would have to stop directing hits on jayshau Mahdi while they rebuilt, regrouped, re armed, and then they would go at it again.

And we played this game with him forever.

And and to throw to throw an ounce an ounce of US money into a solder city, it is, it's ridiculous.

Yeah, And I think more importantly it's the blood that was yeah put there because you know, like every soft is sexy, right, Yeah, but really that's where I gained. I learned important lesson there that no one's service is greater than anybody else. Absolutely, And when you look at these kids, I can these kids at that point in time we're doing, some of them were getting extended to

You know, that's that's the travesty of it, I think, And you know we've talked about that on this show before too.

People love the soft mission, people love the direct action. The direction action is great for commanders, it briefs, well, how many bodies did you stack? Look, we're winning the war, you know, we just killed twenty insurgents. But both in Iraq and in Afghanistan, you know, these conventional guys they don't get any credit at all for what they went through.

And they the software was very gucci. It was. It was dangerous. I'm not I'm not taking anything away from it. It was dangerous.

They you know, they had the lion's share of kills and whatnot, but they also got to plant. They had the assets, they had, you know, the resources. They weren't out there doing you know, recon by you know enemy fire.

But both in.

Afghanistan and Rock, these conventional forces were stuck out there, some of them mixing it up every single day.

You know.

They weren't flying back, you know, to Bogram, they weren't you know, going back to Glalabad you know, to play Halo, to unwind and prepping for the next stop. They were in it every single day, and for long periods of time, like you say, like twelve to eighteen months, and they get.

No credit at all.

Everybody is so focused on soft because that's what they make movies about. That's you know, and yeah, these these these kids, these guys, these these women, they deserve a hell of a lot more credit than I get.

Yeah, yeah, they do. Hopefully, hopefully I'll remember at the end. Well, once I got really senior, I spoke up at a conference that well, no tell us so so yeah, so I'll fast forward really quick and then we'll go back. So it was the right towards the end of my career.

Or find another job.

And so at the time, I actually enjoyed the tactical medical stuff and I wanted to go to the unit at BRAG That's that's where I wanted to go. But they had periods of time where their senior I think the senior medical folks there they either wanted eighteen series guys and they wouldn't take the SOCCAM guys. And so it really was who's in charge of the med the med troop or squadron or whatever it is. And so at the time they were like, hey, we're not taking

Had you had you been aware of that program?

I known about the people because there was onesies and twosies that worked with the task force, but you didn't know kind of what these weird animals were, right, you know, they're kind of like these strange birds. Right, they're like,

So I had.

Fully applied and been like hired. And then I talked to my buddy who was at the place that I wanted to go, and he's like, because I think I had applied to I'd filled out the packets for both, but again, the names on the packets, they're just like names, they don't really correlate. And he's like, dude, you didn't go through the So I called the other guy because you get a point of contact and I was like, yeah, I don't want the job. I'm actually trying to go

And what was that uh, what was the was the search still ongoing at that point in time?

It was so we actually got them back. I was actually at the location the day before.

Wow. Uh yeah.

So yeah, so when we first got there, So we got there. I think they got them back in June or July of eight if I remember right. And so Operation Jock if I think it's called pronounce you Jock JQ,

One to ten.

Now it's just like yeah, it's just ten, yeah, you know. And so so yeah, we get there and without focusing too much on that, we instantly start going out and

I feel like medcaps and PRTs and well the PRTs, but that medcaps are are are almost always if they're done right, Like, there's always an element of that intelligence gathering piece to the medcap right that there should there's always somebody there, and especially on the female side, because a lot of times, like a lot of times, the women will talk about the things that are pissing them off, and things that are pissing them off are generally the things that guys don't want to talk about.

Yeah or yeah, well you know that was a huge You're exactly right, and that's probably more so in Afghanistan than even Iraq. Afghanistan, I've never talked to a woman, Yeah, never, Yeah, Iraq, yes, because they have like the ones that don't kind of wear the full burka type a lot of traditional they haven't much more Western Western exactly, they're kind of more westernized. It's more socially acceptable for them to kind of associate with with males, and so could work with females there

And is that because it was still considered special ops and so.

I think it was the mos Is, So if you looked at it, no female medics that went through.

I actually had the first female medic in my SOCCAM class. She was Air Force first female go through SoC them. I think that's a whole nother crazy story.

That's that was.

Integration gone awry. That's a funny story. So I should tell that, but we're too far past it. But at any rate, so yeah, so uh, we're kind of lost my track.

So you're in Latin America. You're doing the medcaps, large medcaps.

Yes, so the big, big large medcaps. And so we're really just asking questions, like any fark around, has anybody heard rumor of them moving? Because that's what they would do. They would move these They moved these guys for five years everywhere, and so.

We I think it.

I think it was San Jose A Guavier, the Guavier River area. We were there. Now we didn't know the OP was gonna happen, but we were there the day before setting it up and doing planning to do it. And so we met with the local like government. We told them, here's what we'd like to do. We would like to do do health screenings because a lot of the stuff that we were doing because like, well why

Mosquitoes and pies. Oh oh, the drug counter drug drug stuff.

It's all counter drug through the con I believe it's called is their organization.

Uh, through their counter narcotical folks.

So so that's a whole nother different mission that we also did. Once we got the hostages back, we continue doing that. So yeah, so we were there planning it to set it up and you say, hey, we want to do this, we want to see you know, we you know, see the folks, make sure everything's okay, and planning it, and then I think our team leader got a call. It's like, hey, you guys need to get

And then did you did you did you meet them? Did you greet them at all?

Not?

They flew back, They facilitated their.

Their their movement was pretty much facilitated and kind of escorted. And there wasn't a reason, like they didn't need to and.

And yeah I didn't like you screened them when they came out?

No, no, nothing, nope, uh, no real direct contact. The I think Cleveland was the the South, the SOX South commander at the time he flew in, briefed everybody and thanked everybody, you know, because this is they've been looking for these guys for years, and so it was a big deal. I think I still got the Fanville Observer paper from that and and.

So yeah, so that was the bit.

But that was actually the very beginning or towards the I think two months into our rotation. And so after that, you know that didn't get to see them. They they got they went back and we continued on mainly working with the State Department stuff and just kind of just you know, we would go out sit these things up and they would have a State Department rep who would kind of screen these folks and make sure the stuff they're spraying all over this stuff isn't like causing cancer,

Right right with from the saying, you know, it's it's interesting because as I think about it, like ill, when I think about medcaps, I've always thought about intelligence gathering, but it's possible and maybe maybe you know this and maybe it wasn't even a thing, but I imagine, you know, with the FARC moving around as much as they did.

Yeah, I think I think you can. And what's interesting you bring that up because we're not the only people who go and build wells. Like in beginning of Afghans, there's a lot of well building, right because people needed water and you would find I want to say, I want to say, like Talibland built wells too. Yeah, so they would do their own kind of like humanitarian system. Like there was some weird stuff where you would be like, well,

Yeah, well, I'd like to think we don't.

You know, well, I guess I mean that shwack the people in each way right, right, if you're doing if you're putting place, No, I think you're right too. And I think they see that, and I think that's what gives us the upper hand, is that we don't do that. I think you're exactly right.

I mean the upper hand in terms of.

The upper hand in terms of them not being hostile towards us. But there is there is a brutal efficiency with sort of the mafia.

Style. It's play nice or will come in.

It's fear, and you can exactly it's you know, it's it's influencing through just direct yeah, fears. So yeah, I don't think that we you know.

I in my experience, you know, which isn't every experience. My experience, we've never we haven't played.

With There may have been some folks who do that, but it's not because they're well, I wouldn't think directed, and it's certainly not at large scale and it's certainly not within your I would say, majority of your soft elements, and definitely not your conventional military. It kind of goes against doctrine, you know a lot of just doctrine and policy.

And yeah, I mean, you know, you might get some rogue, you know, commander out there who has a you know, a small element has influenced over that might pull that kind of stuff.

But it's not.

It's not within our roes, it's not within our TTPs, it's not.

Within our our doctrine to do something like that.

And I think that's actually important to know and think about. The military is an it's an organization, it's an entity. It has a value system attached to it, but it's not a person, right, And so there may be people doing those sites, but it may not reflect the policies and regulatories and common procedures of the larger entity and or how it expects its people to behave right. Right, So there's bad apples in everybody, and.

And bad apples and people who go off the rails.

Look, if you have some like young lieutenant with a.

Platoon maybe a platoon plus out in some cop right, and they keep on getting hit or they keep on hitting IDs, And if he's there for eighteen months, at some point after he puts his.

Third, fourth, fifth, due. Guy on a bird at some point.

Does a switch flip for him and he goes into like the local village and he says, hey, look, my guys get hit again. I'm there's going to be hell to pay. Yeah, Like, I don't know who's doing it.

You guys know who's doing it. My guys get like, that's not the way, That's not the way to do business. But I can see.

An empathize with somebody who who goes who goes there?

I can't.

I've actually thought a lot about this, but I think it's short sighted, and I'm.

Not I don't disagree.

And the reason I say that is so because I think about this a lot, like because I think about what we asked, like why was there blue on green

But I think if you wouldn't think.

It through and actually like, okay, is it plausible and logical that they may not know anything about this? And if you go with just the stick and you know, I'm going to beat you or kill people until you tell me, and they don't. What are you going to get? You're going to get bad information? And I think that's why maybe some of those approaches are not the best approaches.

I don't disagree with you, you know, And like I wouldn't condone, you know, like I said, a young lieutenant or captain doing that, I can just imagine their level of frustration and there their sense, you know, the inability to do anything, the sense of powerlessness, and the desire to do something to protect their people, even if that's something is toxic and not not well thought out.

And you know, but you know again, and I guess I'm also open minded enough to also think that you can manage things in your area by being a good steward. And actually, hey, hey, we're going to talk about this, and who's ever's doing this needs to get out of here because you're putting my family at risk because you're doing these things. Right, So I think, you know, I

Think so too.

Yeah, yeah, yes, and that's what I mean that it's like it's a breaking point, I think.

And I don't think this happened a lot. I didn't. I haven't heard of it happened a lot.

But I can imagine the frustration at some of those smaller cops with not having assets, not having support, you know, not having you know, not being.

Able to go out.

Into the village and conduct you know, a med cap or you know, a build a well because it's just you and your line guys, you know.

So yeah, anyway, I sorry, I did railed that. But so the operation of success do you stay down there for a while longer?

So yeah, we stayed till the end of the tour. So once I completed, I hurried up, came back. I had, you know, I just basically, I I think I had to hurry and sell my house. I had to get it ready to sell because I'd been on brag now for a good number of years. No, I rented it. I had to rehabit to rent and then hurry up and just pack up and move and then move to the DC area and so so yeah, so then that that's that's my time is done for now. At Fort Bragg,

Yeah, that's where it starts out.

And they're like, hey, you should probably you know, look at this area.

Right.

So I got given up a geographic area that I needed to kind of find a residence too, because if you're in the DC area, and if you've ever lived there, fifteen miles can take you.

I was just you know, I was talking to you about that. I was like, I was like.

After I got out of the service, I got offered to go back because I wanted to work and do policy right. Policy for the under Secretary of Health Affairs is what I wanted to do because I had learned that I could shape things through policy. And I've been taught and mentored by actually somebody who was the unit the med start major and and so so. But anyways, if you ever been up there, like it's critical where you picked to live, because your life can be hell

I honestly think the traffic in that area is much worse than traffic in New York. Traffic here can it can get messy, but I feel like there it's always messy.

Yeah, yeah, traffic there could be brutal.

Yeah, if you don't, like if I needed to go to our headquarters, which was much more central, if you did not leave that building by three thirty and you had to go over the bridge, and you know in Alexandria. Then you weren't getting home till seven o'clock at night. So it was it was And I was like, man, some days three hours each way in traffic. It's like six hours of my life every day is in traffic. Which yeah, so so yeah. So so I get there and like most people, I you know, I'm like, okay,

So so just to break down the difference or when you when you're saying this that it would be like it'd like be sort of like being a range of battalion that you have your line cartoons who are who are the main effort or not necessarily the main effort, but but they're the technical experts in in what they do, and then.

You're there as direct support to those.

One hundred Yes, so that's one hundred percent right. So so yeah, so let let me all rewind a bit and then we'll pick back up. So, going through the the the screening process, they make it very clear that that's what you want to do, right, and they ask you that, and you know, and and I kind of asked, like.

Well, what else can I do? Well?

No, no, I didn't. I didn't ask that because I didn't I had no desire. And that's an important thing. And actually later on I was part of building their enhanced selection program for medics.

Huh.

I ran the very first one as the kind of enhanced screening. Sorry major, And but yeah, you you do not want folks who want to do something else. If you want to do something else, you need to go do that, right. What you're here to do is to be DS medic. And then we had two kinds of medics. We had clinical medics and direct support medics. And so to a direct support medic we pulled from all services and from except yeah, all services that actually have medics.

You know?

How did I get this par And they're like I'll never forget. They're like, you're right, and nobody's here by a mistake and so that was that was it was pretty fulfilling just to hear that. And then you know, the next thing, you know, because it was I had already went through the I guess the screening portion, and I won't talk about that because it's it's important to

Yeah, it's interesting because I want to focus real quick on what you say. You know, we've talked about soft getting a line share of the glory, but also when we talk about soft, we are talking about shooters getting a line share of the glory. Uh but there are shiit hot mechanics that make that mission possible, right, Like people who aren't just content to go out to the motor pool and do the do the service, Like there

Yeah, No, I think you touched on an interesting point. So later on my career when I went back to BRAG, you know, as a senior leader on the base, you kind of get hosted and kind of toured around and you know, and I got invited over to the organization at BRAG and they gave me a tour. And so it was it was at lunch time and probably a lot of people know this, right, there's the places where the shooters sit at and the place where the other

Sorry, I I derailed things.

Yeah, No, it's okay, it's it's a it's a I definitely want to touch on it. But so going back to what I got to, so I get there, and you know, I'm just learning, I'm taking on all the information you know, I'm getting, you know, just in processing, and then I'm going to where I'm going to work out because not everybody works at the same place, and so I'm, you know, getting told where where I'm going to work. I already kind of know because it's where

And I needed to get spun up.

So I had to do all my you know, I got improcessed, and then I have to do all my basically training to get me full mission qualified because to be a direct support medic, so I had to do a paramedic transition because at the time, I don't know if they get paramedics certification out of SOCCAM.

Yeah, I don't know.

If they lost it for a while, they schoolhouse lost it. I don't know if they lost it, you know.

Or if they see the value in it or whatever. For whatever reason they.

Did, they weren't paramedics and that was the requirement. If you're a medic, you need to be a paramedic. Okay,

And you were in a rock shortly before, so you've been.

Yeah, yeah, so and the thing is like, you know, like I had mentioned just what what of her number it was. I think by the time I got there, I'd done five or six seven trips throughout the world and it had caught up with me. But the excitement of something new, you kind of suppress all that, right because you want to You're eager, you we're all in right, Like that's the thing is, like you got something going, I want to be on. You're like fighting for to go out the door. It's like no, no, no, I

And so but what I didn't have was like.

Just the uh the weapons system, like the optics were just kind of kind of antiquated older stuff, and just the body armor. It was just like older play carrier stuff. It wasn't like newer stuff. So so yeah, that was the first odd thing about the organization. Gave me all this shit, but once I got into to damn Nick, they gave me a full issue. So it's they took care of me this so but they did that for everybody, so all the augments came together. So this was this

Yeah, which I mean you you had already been exposed to the task.

You've already been tasked to them. It's just that now you're in a much.

More direct I think that is the key difference, right, because it's like you're it's kind of like being attached to an ODA, right, Like you're an attached but you're not really doing their stuff. You're doing your stuff working with them. So I think a lot of people get caught up in this stretching it. You know, it's like stretching what you've done, and it's like, look, at the end of the day, I did my job right. That's was my job to do, and I did my job right,

It's one younger younger Yeah, and I don't you know.

And not to say that happened to all of them, and it's not to say that they all didn't, but it was just at that point of time with that and guy and so. But for some reason, and I thought I attributed to it's like, Okay, we don't you know, know kind of what you do. But if you say that, you know you're direct support medic here.

Yeah, So it's kind of kind of kind of weird out of curiosity.

How come the Omegas or the Seals needed attached medics when they have their.

Own cormant Ah, they didn't at the time. So that's actually a good point. So all these units were growing at the time. So again, like I told you, I was medic I think I think five right, And that means like on the manning they're authorized five right, because they're they're manning documents and at the time they were using pjs. So the Assault Force I think was all

I will have to ask somebody from ye from them, because I mean Corman could go through buds and then and that well that was the problem.

That was what I was told. If you were going there to assess, it was kind of like beneath you. So it's much different than what I've heard of. Again, like so, I've never been part of either of those two organizations. H but what I had heard, it's much more socially acceptable for an eighteen Delta to go be a direct support medic for Delta, then a seal Corman to go be a Corman there.

I don't know, Oh, I get it.

I so, if they're going to assess, they're going to be a so.

So, same way with a condultas if they assessed, if they go through selection, then they're then they're not really I'm sure then their primary role is a shooter, yet they're so so, they're not necessarily part of the the medic.

They go through two different tracks.

I get it, I get it. That makes sense. Okay, So our organization was just no different.

So they so so they hadn't set up any corman that that screened, any seal corman that screened. They were a shooter first, so they wanted some sort of direct support.

They weren't. They weren't going to do.

They wouldn't. What was told to me is they won't even come screen to be a medic.

Right then they screened to be a shooter.

Exactly, which is much different because a lot of delta's really enjoy I guess, and there's not to say that there's some that don't. Right, But like my TL was a prior corman who was then a shooter. So he was, but he was a shooter, right, he knew, he knew how to be a medic. He was a little bit aided, but he knew how to be a medic, but so Bragg had a fully functional med section and could support themselves.

Yeah, I mean, I I don't know why in my mind, Like if an eighteen delta doesn't screen for direct support but does actually does the long walk, they're not even though they still have that medical knowledge, their first and primary mission is as a shooter, right, So same same with damn Neck.

I'm sure that.

Yeah, And I think they've all offered them positions. So I've been told, like if you go to the brag based organization and you don't make it, there's a pretty good chance if you want a job and you are in eighteen delta that you can be a direct support.

Makes sense.

Their organization, I think, is the same, but no one is willing to take it. They want to go and I guess screen again, our organization we have the opportunity to because a lot of those guys are medical from whatever services they are. But we've at least in my tenure there for six years, you knew that that wasn't their passion. They wanted to do that, and so that

And they don't want to put that investment in somebody if they're just then they want to go to you know, be the guys.

Yeah.

Yeah, So that's that's that's I think a key difference between the three organizations and so so yeah, so yeah, getting so so back on track. So we all get there, we get assigned our teams, and so I ended up back in you know, back back going back to Afghanistan, ended up going back to a Sadabad. I'd been there before doing my round robins of payments to folks, and so I'd already experienced. I kind of knew the landscape and so, but never really knew that that bait, that

Like it's it's it's second tier royalty, right, because the officers are royalty. They have their own mess deck on on the ship, and then there's also the chiefs mess on the ship and then all the all the uh you know, Uh.

So it's institution. It's institutional elitism. Yes, yes, so it's it's breeding it. Yes, yes, that's interesting. Yeah, it's like what you try to weed out, but they I mean they wear different uniforms.

Yeah, you know.

Then then yeah, I guess you get a stripe on your leg when you're.

In the army. So yeah, I mean that going for you.

Yeah, yeah, it's it's you know it all it all goes back to, you know, a ship being its own kingdom with the you know, the the captain of the ship being the king or queen. And then then you have your officers and offscer country and everybody like jumping to the side when the officers are walking down the hallway. And and like I said, there are different there are different levels of chow halls. The ascer's chow hall which

But yeah, so here was another thing that I think that helped me out as far as integration. There was this medication at the time called what was it called, I think it was it was Factor seven A I think. So it's basically medication that helped with clotting if you know, if you were shot. It was extremely expensive. I think it was like eighteen hundred dollars a while, and hardly anybody was carrying it, especially not point of injury folks. And so, and I forgot a lot of the components

And so they had thought that was pretty.

Pretty forward thinking and they appreciated that, and so I helped that. I think that helped me with my integration. Like I said, like I like it's as an augment, like like even like the room assignments, right, Like.

It's like it's like the chowel, right.

But my room was right next to their rooms, all in order, so some of the guys, like some of the opguments were down the hall the other rooms. Yeah, and so you know I had gotten the one of the prime real estate and ice rooms and stuff. So you know, just all these little subtleties that they're like

With your civil affairs paying off, right.

And so it's like, hey guys, like here's you know, and help people. It's it's always like and the other thing is build and do like help out right. Yeah, it's you know, just do things without being asked. It's a huge like it's a it's actually a skill. I actually look for people character trait, you know, just the ability to to just see something you need done and do it and then don't have to wait to be asked and so so yeah, so I you know, instantly hit the ground and and so things ramped up pretty

Yeah, and I remember I totally forgot about bull run.

Yeah, so and for time and oh man, I'll tell you so I already told you my gear was shit, but I got some good gear.

But what I didn't know is.

At least these seals, I don't want to say that every all of them did it. They actually their ideal of a basic load and the armies traditional or the SF of what you carry for ammunition and weaponry is

There's no hostage in the room, right.

And so and for me, like that was new to me. Like I had no formal CQB training. I had some just unit level stuff from having rangers and stuff teach me that were my team sergeant. But as far as a formal like a classroom, you know, you would go to this course and complete this course like a sephardikers you know, any of those kind of courses. I didn't

And so the first one was.

Had we had a pretty good target. Happened right before Christmas. I think it was like on the twenty fourth, so it's like right, you know, Chris, So I don't know if it was the twenty third because obviously operating period of Darkness or if it was twenty third I think it was. We end up hitting it on Christmas, but pretty big target. And and so as the me, so like my role, like the medics job is not to get shot right right. It's kind of like the team leader.

Their plan if they if they went down, if you got hit. Yeah, So my.

Job was to essentially be an interior blocking position. So basically they clear a compound right outside that door. And so that's what happened on that house, you know. Really, so this is we are in Kunar Providence. Those mountains are very relentless, like so you know, I don't know how long the office was to walk in there and carry those fucking ladders and everything and all the stuff

And so.

As soon as that happens, my job is already know where I'm supposed to be. You know, we have our building or our grid reference system, and I know I'm supposed to go to building the ten series building and sit right here. And so as soon as I get in position, I see two guys walking and so I end up shooting both of those guys and they finish. You know, this stuff, these compounds get cleared in like it's like it's like minutes.

It's not.

This is not like you're staying there all day. Yeah, I mean you've done this work, so you know, it's like super fast. And so it was my first experience though, so for me it's like it's it's burned in me.

It's a lot.

Yeah, it's it's it's like a lot of things you remember your first right. So, and so come to find out, like you know, everything's done. You know, they've kind of got all the kids kind of crawled up and you know they're kind of keeping them them calm, and you know, people are crying. It's all the typical stuff that happened. Women are crying and screaming and kids are upset, and so you're kind of like putting them in different rooms and.

They go over and in.

The one of the guys that I shot in up being the targets. You know, it's like it's pretty cool for me. You know, it's like, oh man, I just I just got one of the guys on the target list.

So so.

Actually know what that's right right before we right after that those two guys, we started taking guys. That's where the cliff comes into place. They started kind of maneuvering a whole bunch of people. So there's a lot of cast that was called in, so that all the cast is is kind of coming in on.

This this j tax calling in the hilltop.

I think some of the guys find a bunch of I don't know if it's like fertilizer, what it is like bomb making material. So he's one of the one of the guys that is kind of rigging all that up to kind of a bit bit later as we're

Great target.

We kind of walk out, you know, the long walk out, and we get back and so we're doing you know all that, the the additional ssee stuff and then just kind of nothing big and then it's Christmas, right, yeah, you know, and so so we kind of have like a down day and then the next day another target popped.

Crazy as to sound like a like a rear porch deck.

Okay, but I just remember I could only see half of them, and so same type thing. So two guys kind of they're going through, you can hear them going through, and then two guys go out and same scenario. You know, it's like I can't see what they're doing there, but they kind of they were out. The door popped down and then you know, eliminate the potential threat and I.

Don't know what they're what's below.

And so finish go through the whole compound and they finished clearing the compound. We don't find the target. There's you know, it's like most targets, right, you have people squirting off in different directions, maneuvering to different realms. It's an important word. I learned to never say the word squirter. There a square, they're maneuvering to a position of advantage.

You had got the jackpot.

Yeah, so it was it was really cool and so had had that. Then two days later this happens. So now there's this It starts getting thrown around like hey, there's we need to investigate this.

And it was because now did they say there were kids murdered? Also?

They did, So that was the thing that they were actually handcuffed, are Zif tied zif tied up and executed. It's actually executed, is the way it said. And and that's not what happened, right, and so.

I'm like, oh, this is not good.

That same timeframe though, up in I think it was Maza Schory mez the again because you have the outstation teams doing this mission, and then you still have the assault force doing their thing, right, so the so the strikeforce, so they're doing their thing, so they needed to ramp up, I guess, so they pulled all of their two because I think I don't know how they break it down, but I think like one of the troops essentially divides people up and they run these like Omega outstations I think,

And uh he ended up the only people were left.

It was like me and their intel because they had a you know, they have their their they bring their equivalent of the into as to essentially they're the team has it there their organic intel guys. So it's me and him and maybe somebody else.

But were you the only one on target? Or were they on target? Also?

No, he was not. And I believe I I don't know who they all they question, but I know of like the main core element because these teams are only so it's a medic two organic team guys from them, and then you have these other white side, the white side.

And.

They were gone and so they and I think one of those guys was rotating out because he did. And it's actually and so what was I'll say his name because he's he was on extortion.

But j T.

So j T was our augment he was our j tech, so he was our augment and he had made it I think through their green team. So they were flying a new augment in he was going back, I think, to do I guess the I don't know whatever what he had to do. And so and the other guy either he didn't go on that mission for some reason. But essentially, I think I was like one of the main guys who basically had to go through the scrutiny of this, and it was something new to me.

I had never experienced it for and so you know, I.

Went through that investigation, but it wasn't really investigation because like now have being like you know, in a command team of a military organization, I know what a fifteen six is, yeah, and all these so this is not It was more of collecting a witness statement.

They knew that you guys had not handcuffeds it tied a bunch of kids and execute him, but they still had to go through the motion of Yeah, so.

I'll tell you that I didn't know that at the time, and nobody basically gave me that peace of mind, right, And so it really kind of messed me up for a long time because I really started to question myself like did I did I need to shoot? Like your mind just so I already like have you know PTSD from everything else? And now so now I'm like, did it Did I just kill people that I didn't need to kill?

Like what I know?

I did everything I was supposed to do, and I started to question every action and so and so I didn't really know how to process that. So so, but to your point, basically it kind of like just went away. It wasn't like there was even any follow up. It just kind of this guy came out to your point, I think he was directed to do an inquiry or investigation.

Yeah whatever. Yeah, they have to.

Report to their government because their government was saying, hey, you're going out to do this. So it was like, I don't want to call it a check the box or whatever, but it's kind of what a hindsight, you know, looking at it, it was like, well, maybe that they were doing what they needed to do to fulfill their obligation to look into it.

I'm not saying that there were never any questionable killings of military age males on targets throughout theater throughout Afghanistan, but.

You're talking about like two thousand and nine twenty ten.

Right, people who had been in and out of theater by that time were used to the idea of you know, these killer teams killing kids, you know, like executing kids, of using human shields, of all this stuff that.

Was not going on. They knew it wasn't going on, and but you still have to you can't just you can't just at the highest level, go that didn't happen.

Yeah, so so yeah, so that's the twenty six, twenty seventh, twenty eighth. We get to twenty nine December and if anybody knows about I think it was twenty nine or thirty December of two thousand and Yeah, we uh, instantly, I think Chief of Base got a call that a I think at Chapman they had just had a suicide. Yeah, yeah, and instantly. I didn't really know what was going on at the time, and to be quite honest, I still

And so.

I we had gotten this big printer in It was like this cool big printer.

There was like this long and it did like photo quality.

It was probably supposed to be used for masters and yeah, yeah, but I made posters for everybody.

Yeah.

So I basically I took all of those those things from around. They were just like little random just snippets of old paper of these things that these guys saved. And I had made a big poster and put their image in their name and rank under it, and then I and in the middle of it was a an American flag with with their skull and bones, you know, the squadron I was with and and so and and framed it and hunged it up and put it right

And it's a full bar.

It's not like hidden, it's not like in somebody's room behind something or in a mouth washed bottle.

It's a it's a bar.

And uh well, I guess the only ground glamorizer for people have a it's it's a shelf with alcohol.

Right the open, and it's not like a bar.

And so these guys, though I think some of them were, they're coping mechanism like most people's co be mechanism as alcohol, and there's some there's some functional alcoholics, highly functional alcoholics that were just and you I, as a medical person, could start to see that. And I didn't say anything

In terms of like integration.

Yeah, certain guys dealt with integration. I can tell you. There's one guy who got he had a bad something happened where they had a personality conflict with his team and he was not from our organization but from another one, and he ended up getting beaten pretty good to the point where that he had to I think they put him in ic U. And you know, I've never heard that story public. It's well known in the medical community at JAYS, but it's not one of those stories that's

While, and were these two incidents were they Were they solely with the Devreu guy or the damn Net guys, or were they also with like the Red guys.

No, I'd never after that experience, I didn't work with the Rangers again, so I actually didn't even know they did those rotations, to be quite honest with you, until until recently. It was specifically with those guys. And again, like I had such a positive experience, I hate to even like I don't even know, I feel bad. It's like I almost feel like, well, why did you bring it up? Then? But it's for him. It's you know, it shouldn't.

Have happened, right, so if you got put in the ICU on, it shouldn't have happened.

And but it did happen. And I don't know why I wasn't there. But it's but it's but it's one of those kind of known thing. It's kind of one of those like it's just an ugly mark. I mean, it's it's a stain. It's a stain that doesn't need to be there. Yeah, it's like there's there's different ways to manage that. But again going back to the psychological aspect, I don't know. I don't know what happened that certainly wasn't justified nor should be tolerated, but I don't know

Right.

So here's your stuff, and here's all the training you need to use that stuff, and then make sure that stuff is good and you have the best stuff. And then again like medications and you know, it's almost like the pre equip equipping. But then there's making sure that you give them stuff that doesn't highlight that right. So there's that component I was gonna.

Ask you about that. Is there being being how some of these units work, uh in and how they conduct their missions? Is there is there an improvised medicine aspect to it?

Like, look, you if you you can't walk around in this environment with medical gear, so this is how you would.

Use super glue? Uh, this is how.

You know, it's kind of the wilderness of medicine approach. Yeah, so there there is, And I'll tell you that's one of my frustrations with man. Things you shouldn't say in a public form. My frustrations with like the Kazi component, the Committee on Tactical Combat Casualty Care, and it's when when I they went very much and I think even a lot of the schoolhouses. So when I went through the schoolhouse, you you made all your medical kit. Right, there was no such thing. I think chess seals were

It's like that's what we do. And I'm like, yeah, you really do.

But yeah, okay, yeah, I'll go with you a little bit down this, but I'm less like So for me, it was certainly new and it's a little bit scary, you know, just navigating around by yourself. And so I got a cool story though well it's it wasn't cool

Little sketched, right, it's a little sketch.

So so I think the is called Lindy Lindy. So there's a Manda Bay and then there's another You had to basically we had to get in somebody's speedboat and it's just a taxi driver. It's just some dude like pay this dude money and getting the speed on a lost this way. So we get over there and so basically that's what we're doing. We're walking the dog and so there it was supposed to be a clinic there, so okay, if somebody we need to then there this

No.

Yeah, so the first thing I learned was like soccer jerseys are pretty universal, Like you wear like some kind of short capri pants and maybe some sandily shoes with a soccer jersey and like not like a backpack, but like a you know, like a little messy like straw bag, you know. So so yeah, so that so so we're so we're like these two like European tourists and you know, kind of guys walking around.

And you got underneath.

Yeah yeah. And and so like a couple of minutes up the road, we start noticing we're getting followed, and we're like, okay, oh ship, So we you know, we just keep doing we're doing we kind of you know, we're just like we don't have a pre designated plan, like this is our plan, and and we're out there, right, and so we end up stopping in the clinic. I think we stopped in a little like hodgepodge pharmacy, not like the pharmacy like you would think. It looks like

Yeah, so the same kind of thing.

It's like this, uh like these.

Little bodegas yea yeah, and so like little pharmacy.

So as soon as we get out, the dude comes. These two dudes come up to us, are like, we know who you are and we're gonna kill you tonight and just keep on walking.

And so some of our folks had set us up.

In this in this like it was like a resort. And I don't want to describe it too much. I'll describe it a little bit. I won't say what the name it is a name just in case people are still using it. But essentially it was an open air you ever seen, Like it looks like the coolest vacation in the world. Like it's like the sandals on the water. You see these little open air there's just curtains like

Do you know what a bush baby is? Yeah, A little like kind of marsupial or yeah. Yeah.

So like in this little area, we had opened like some little cookies.

Like it was like sitting on the table.

I think it was trying to get these cookies or something. So so yeah, So I there's no like great action story like where we like tackle them on the beach and they drowned them underwater and slit their throats. But it was just like, you know, it was just like being in an environment where it's like I don't have anything to really protect myself, right and in the way you're traveling, you're not bringing that stuff.

You're not.

And you're not going out and getting it on the economy, like you can't have.

Anything that it's it's not what we're there to do, and it's not how we're supposed to be with the intent of what we're doing. So so it's just a it's a little bit different. And so that was, you know, and I experienced that twice once and I think Tanzania that up there in Kenya and then and then uh got I got uh got robbed in Kenya. That was interesting. Well it's car it was like I think it was

Gets No, he rolls, so.

Rolls down the window. As soon as he rolls down the window, another guy walking this way stuck his hand in and hit the unlocked button. And as soon as that button hit we had one person in every door. It was like this door, this door, this door, and then the rear gate of the They're like, what are they like the Toyota Surfs or whatever kind of vehicles, and so there's like five people instantly in the car on you, and uh, I think they just they just

Yeah, yeah, I don't know if other people have it.

But but going back to like doing these assessments and then going a little bit later into my career, like we had written a lot of these we had validated a lot of these med plans, and I remember communicating back to headquarters. It was either to our headquarters and I think they community for us, like I think that we don't have enough MED support and HOA like and

So we had a service member I think he was he was shot, it was shot or.

Stabbed something domestically, and essentially he went to the first place denied him care in Kenya, went to the second place to night care and died at the third place. Oh my god, because he thought like his ID card was going to take care of him. It had worked

But it's just fascinating because it's a fascinating part of you know, of these of these units or.

Whatever the people. I don't think people really I've never thought about it.

You know, it's not something I've ever thought about, you know, the importance of that type of support when there is no support, you know.

Yeah, So that's yeah, there's a So it's so I ended up doing doing a couple of trips doing that, just validating some things. And then the next big thing that I can probably talk about that I did be just because it was it was attached back to conventional soft was the invisible children stuff, the coney stuff. So it was over there, and I think in two thousand that was one of the last things I did before I left in twenty twelve or thirteen, so and.

It so that was.

I'm trying to think of figure out the train of thought to describe so people weren't familiar with it. Essentially, it's it's this guy like he kind of just took people kidnapped and brainwashed them into the into the jungle.

Turned them into like child soldiers, child.

Soldiers and so and they mutilated these kids and people, cutting their body parts off and and so.

Yeah, so we got it.

I got attached to go for that, and so went over and that was one of my first chances working directly overseas with the organization and or at least some

That's the best way I can say it. I wish they.

I wish our average citizen knew the stakes and the price that these guys. This is their life. They've given it up for something that no one will ever know about. And and when you really think that in perspective, that's that's pretty huge commitment. Right. You're not going to read about their awards, and you're not going to know their exploits and stuff. So yeah, and so, but they don't look like you would have to like some of them. You'd be like you're a special operator, Like, prove it

It must have been so cool for that guy too, Yeah, you know what I mean.

Yeah, and so so yeah, so this you know, they're doing their thing and this guy's learning this stuff. Uh it went on. They they didn't you know, no really exciting had another you know, people following a story on that one, but it's not too exciting. But but yeah,

You had to find a new home.

I had to find a new well. I didn't have fun a new I had to go to the academy. So I had to go to the Sergeants Major Academy. And that's it. That's it. So that's a fun story. So and so yeah, so like I, you know, I outprocessed the unit and uh, you know, people, I don't know if people ever talk about being like read off. You know people here talk about read on. I've went through a lot of organizations and have gotten read onto a lot of things, but very rarely do I ever get read off.

I think that park is like left out often. I think that's just like a pencil whip.

So the unit does not do that. You get a formal readoff and you that's when you signed your non DISCLOSURELF oh your LifeWay. Yeah, and I've learned those are like for service members even after retirement, there's like you know, you c MJ, like you still can be held to that stuff. So there's you know, That's why I'm like

Like, well, fortunately there were a bunch of sergeants majors around to let you know.

No, what you have so is the nation's most qualified first sergeants. Everyone five hundred of them in your class. So there's five hundred e eights going through this course. And and here's the weird thing.

So, like.

A service member has to track career track, and so since I'm not soft as my core mos now, I go back to being medical like hospital medical, like you know. And so when you're in those places, like all your stuff is classified essentially, and the first thing they want you to do when you go to these places are like.

Write your biography.

But here's what the organization, the unit doesn't tell you how to it reintegrate. There's no course, right, you just outprocess and that's it. And I think that's why a lot of guys from I'll say these places, because there's a lot of places out there. They don't know how to integrate, and no one teaches you how to integrate, like I got more instruction on how to retire from the army than how to RESI assimilate into the army. Right,

Ye.

Next thing you know, you're figuring out how to put a uniform on and you show up day one and you don't know you're gonna get picked to be like make formation or something. Right, like soft isn't good at DNC, Like, let's be honest, right, maybe the Rangers are good at They're probably the best, right, I.

Don't know. I mean, I don't know what they'll say their leadership. Yeah, I don't know that.

I don't know that we ever did DNC, like I don't I don't know that I've done DNC since or that I had done DNC since since basic.

Okay, so when you have five hundred of the armies and what's a joint service school. So there's Navy and there's there's a fewer of them, and there's a couple. We had like three s F guys in my class. Every the best first sergeant and they want to tell everybody how they're the best for it. And then you got me there. Now granted, now you have to career track. I'd never been a platoon sergeant, right, right, I'd never

And so yeah, I was. I was a bit of a mess.

And so my classmates had a lot of fun. So yeah, so I did the I did, so you do the academy that's a year long at Fort Bliss. And and because I did, you know, I did well in my career. I was a first time command select.

Wow.

And so there were servi sers like I think fifty medical people in my class. So it's all the medical onmosts, not just medics. And and so there's I think there was like ten of us who got selected to go straight into a command position, and so I did. That's even so now you got this dude who can barely make formations, like never process soldiers for useeum. That's what leadership does, right, It's like take care of soldiers, deal with the disciplineary issues and their health and welfare and

So it's like.

And I didn't know. I was like, well, this will be a life experience. So Fairbanks, Alaska. So that was my first experience outside of soft and like after running for a good period of time and ended up there, and.

How was that for you?

I tell you it was. I didn't think it was gonna be good because I was in charge of MEDAC Alaska, which is essentially all what METAC means is medical activity. So all of army medical activities in the state of Alaska. That's a lot. The state of Alaska is big. I don't know if people know that. And so what I did, though, is I focused my time on helping soldiers and and doing what I knew best, which was training, which is not a CSM's job. I was doing like first art

So back to now, we're at.

Prolonged fielding right right, and this is two thousand and fifteen, sixteen is So I went into the position in summer of fifteen because the academy graduates every summer. So I went in so maybe i'd finished like my pre command courses at Levenworth. You got to go learn how to be a you know, it's really just a lot of it's they're preposition you for prepping you for a command. And so he reached out and asked me, can you

I didn't develop it.

And then basically what I tried to do was fill the gap, the knowledge gap of the principles of what they put together with the knowledge base of the conventional medic and try to meld them together. But there's knowledge gaps because when you talk about the skill set of soft medic or in eighteen delta and then someone you know who goes through medic school of three or four

That's about the density.

And so really just created programs for him and sent them to a lot of cool schools. So the cool thing about going to the Academy is you got you know, every stard major everywhere. So the network is tremendous. And so like if I had a young older that was just like doing great things, I could call up, you know, the guy from Airborne School and say, hey, I want to get this guy a slot. Can you get him in and be like, yeah, okay, I can work him in,

Oh really okay?

And and the position at the unit did not qualify it was it was it below a command position.

Yeah, so it's if you you would almost be going back and they'll look you do that sometimes, Yeah, like if you're getting out. I was still at the time, staying in and and I don't know how much time we have, but I.

Mean we we are we we are deep in it.

Uh we're at four hours and thirty minutes right now.

Holy yeah.

But but but I want this is your story I want you to tell it.

No, it's a long story. So I'll try to. I'll try to. Yeah, d are you all right? All right? Our audience is holding tight, okay.

So and so so here's what. So I got offered the position. That's what I wanted to do. But I made the command select list. And when you when you when you're going in the command process, you get to select your preferences. And I had actually got not only make the command selectlist, but got the number one job that I wanted. So I got my pick. And I had started my career in Hawaii and I wanted to end it there. So I got selected to go and take Tripler to be the CSM there.

That's what I wanted.

Because I was like, like I was saying, and I'll and I'll get into it. You know, my in Alaska, my PTSD kind of started to act up, and you know, I had had some I had had a a about of where I was, you know, suicidal, and I had went and talked to a health care provider there and they had got me back health and I some help and I started some medications and actually when got the Stella ganglion block four fifth or six times. I had already had it multiple times before, and uh, and I'll

Yeah, no, yeah, Roger, that.

That's what you said. Like, no problem, story maker, you know. And so they switched my order. So not only did I not get to go back to the unit, I was switched and went to Fort Bragg and so I went to Walmac Army Medical Center and that's where I ended my career.

But my.

And so I you know, without going in the programs are really not important. But I created a couple more programs or just invigorated some that were going in and had a lot of success with just getting conventional army medics paramedic qualified and critical care paramedic qualified and then the prolonged field care stuff making sure that they had access to that.

But really my health, mental health.

Started deteriorating, and so I had had my first stelic ganglium block. So, again getting to the professionals of the units without mentioning his name, he had introduced it into SOFT for you know, a sympathetic chain block to essentially alleviate the autonomic nervous system dysfunction of PTSD. Yeah, the hypervigilants to kind of turn the swe light switch off, and hopefully I did that justice.

So, so we're talking about sticking a needle with isokine, So.

Sticking a leader I think it's rapivocane. It's in the family. It's a long acting lytocane into your neck to essentially blocking that tone for about I think it's like four to six hours, which is enough time to reset your system.

And so our.

Physicians at the unit brought that into SOFT and then they went around and trained and that's one of the dynamite. One of the things that I got to do. I got to fly to the other units and these operators who had twenty plus rotations overseas, you know, help them with their provide them symptomatic relief and and so we So I had gotten that in Alaska at this time, it wasn't working for me. I had never did medications,

So you took a step that most I want to say most active duty soldiers will not take.

You.

You recognize what was going on, and you took steps to address it right, which which I think not only will not a lot of veterans do that, but a lot of but especially a lot of actors, because they're concerned about how it's going to affect their career if they're soft, like, is it going to make them ineligible? You know, I mean, I know that you're going through like a lot at this time, but you are also seeking help.

What what was it?

What advice would you give soldiers, especially when they're active duty and veterans.

But what advice would you give them? That took a lot, That took a lot of strength.

It did. The advice that I can get them give them is is people are are feeling the same way you're feeling, and the first step is the hardest one, and it gets easier after that. At least my experience, it got easier after that. So yeah, but it was it wasn't It's not to say that was easy and or professionally embarrassing, and so that's you know, I struggle with that a lot. You know, that's not the way I wanted to end my career. I had a pretty good career and i'd actually been made the select list

The body is strong.

I could keep up with any of those guys, and I probably still could to this day. But the mind was destroyed. And so I, you know, and I really embrace and this is going to probably rub some people the wrong way. I embrace the D of PTSD. And a lot of people tried to erase the D. And I'll tell you the disorder is what it was, dysfunction, disability, disarray. Everything was messed up and so it was a disorder. It was one hundred percent things weren't right. And so

And then because you know, we're talking about post my stress, but then you throw in TBI or you throw in operator syndrome like it is medicine. Like do they even know at this point where one start, one ends and the other begins.

I don't think so, because I think only again, like to me, some of my stuff I think was moral injury, right, yeah, yeah, and that's what mine was. I think people weren't using that word for a long time.

Now.

I put it first on this show like two years ago.

And so that's what I think, because I couldn't relate, like and when I went through the extensive outpatient program. There's a lot of things that you do that you're like, no, no, I initiated the action. I wasn't in reaction mode. I initiated the action. And so for me, this is right and wrong. Yes, this isn't so everybody's trauma is different everybody, no one's trauma is any special or than anybody else's, right, right, And that's I learned that there.

It's like, hey man, I can't just.

Because you don't have the coolest of cool guys store to go with your baggage doesn't mean I should say that it doesn't affect you a certain way. But but yeah, so I think there's that. So there's moral injury, there's the PTSD stuff, there's the traumatic Bain injury. So I don't know if they've got any of that figured out, and I can certainly tell you from all of the the shelling and just you know, when one twenties.

Comes shock, I'm holy, it's a very real thing, right.

Oh yeah.

And there's also the idea that there are some you know, there are some events for some people that are the in truth, the like the inciting incident, and then for other people it's just like years of being on the edge and there's not like one thing.

That pops out, it's just all of it get together.

And then like the identity so pro separation, that's the divolent. So that's the encouragement I would say, so the advice deal with things before you lose your tribe, because I think when people lose their tribe, then they've lost their identity, they lost their connection, and they go into isolation. So two unit medics have now committed suicide, one recently, and so it was that's a tough toll. They both to one was one of my direct reports. They both hung themselves.

And you're talking about two out of a tiny, yes popular, two out of like.

Less than ten people. And a third A guy called me recently and I talked to him before this show. He called me with a gun in his hand, crying, and I didn't know what to do. And I had been there and he called me and he I, so I'll tell his story, and he told me it's okay if I tell his story. He he shot a little kid and he didn't mean to and he's been dealing with that baggage and he's probably on here right now, and I hope it doesn't tear him up. And uh,

Like that's a lot.

Yeah, and so, and I can tell you that's my appreciation for the unit. And and hopefully I didn't discredit or do anything out of turn or overspeak, but every almost every medical member of my time span stopped everything they were doing and all flew and went to his funeral. And I don't know if everybody would do that in every organization you hear about people passing away. But and so, you know, I have the utmost respect for the organization,

Yeah, it's and I think one of the challenges of people in organizations like that is when you're sitting in front of a doctor or a therapist, you know, a psychologist, whatever.

Like what can you tell them? You know what? What you know? What are you know?

What are you allowed to talk about? Are are they cleared?

And I know that.

The organization ones obviously are. But here's the thing. So when I went to the in depth, I specifically did not want a military person. I said, give me a civilian. I don't want a military person who's medical thinking they know what I've been through because they've experienced their version

And right, while we're on it on the topic, I just want to bring up an app.

And we've had them on the show.

But the app is is sound off and and it was made for people with clearances, both active and veterans. It's a completely anonymous app. It was created by William Nagley and uh, you know, a former agency guy and his brother in law was a former team guy and you know, went into like a horrible spiral and ended

When you sign onto this app, there.

Are all these different organizations and what they do is they get money from different you know, different charities, different foundations associated with these organizations, and you can put in whatever organ if you've been in three of those organizations, and it's all services, it's intelligence agencies, it's whatever, and they will they will use money from that bucket. You know, whatever you've put in, they'll use money from that bucket.

And again it's not just about soft.

It it's just that that's those are the those are the easily filled buckets as they try to scale the app. But if you're a person who is going through stuff, you don't have to go through it alone. Please, don't go through it alone. You know, war as hell, and and everybody cares their own thing. And it doesn't even have to be from war, you know. I mean, shit happens. But yeah, I mean it's it's it's tragic. It's tragic that we're losing people. It's tragic we continue losing people.

And and there's not like postematic stress is not it's not a competition. You don't.

You can't look at somebody say well I didn't go through that, so what right do I have?

Do you know?

Yeah, and I can tell you it's that procedure has been used for people with you know, it's not just combat, you know, sexual assaults and other things. So yet trauma comes in many forms and favors.

Yeah.

And again it's like it's not who who's it's not it's not my job.

To qualify it and quantify it.

Yeah, it's hey, if you know, if you're experience and it's causing disorder to me, that's why I embrace the disorder portion. It's like, if it's making you causing dysfunction, disorder unit to not function, how you know you should be functioned and again having intrusive thoughts and thinking about self harm or harming others or anything like that, and then.

That's not right, right, And so yeah, yeah, it's.

You know, and I think one of the challenges is, you know, we we go through these events, it's like your buddy that you were talking to, he went through this horrific event, and it's really you know, it's really like refining purpose, right, Making these events that we went through means something in our current life, you know, and and like instead of it bringing us down, creating jet fuel from it, saying you.

Know, not not to make up for it, not to.

You know, our buddies that we've lost, not to make up for their loss, but you know, to to say, I'm going to make something from this point forward, you know, to honor to honor this.

Yeah, and I can say a lot of the you know, the the one of the main doctor that I worked with at my time there, he had this saying, you know, he brought a lot of things he brought you know, like stem cell therapies and different therapies to the organization like way before people were doing it, like stuff that

She's a trooper. Yeah, she's a trooper.

And that's the other thing, all of that stuff. Your wife she doesn't know any of these stories. You know. It's like in most maybe some folks share them and maybe some don't. I'm not the sharing type, and so you know, you know, I appreciate everything you've done and putting up with it because it's tough, but you know, so like and I think that destroys a lot of marriages too.

Yeah.

Oh, relationships, you know, just a story especially as as I mean, I you.

Know, I think that as guys start to isolate, uh, you know, we've become more taciturn. I mean, even if we already were, but I think the isolation, the the the compartment was, right, it all sets in and then you just you become like this.

This there's like a wall between you that your partner can't understand. Yeah, and I think it's good that. Yeah.

That just it's relationships, right, it's your friends, family members, your mom could be your mom, your dad, your relationship with your kids. And I know it's affected all the above for me. And so it's you know, just a it's a self reflection thing, you know. And I'm certainly not perfect today, you know what I mean, you got to work out it every day and so but I think it's being cognizant of and self aware.

It's like, oh yeah, why am I being this way? Yeah?

You know?

Yeah, yeah, Well, I mean anybody out there, whoever you are, whatever pain you're in, we love you, you matter, hang with us. Yeah, So for you you know you went through this, you had already had five.

Sgbs at that point in time. You get chaptered out or not chaptered. I'm sorry.

You go through your medical chapter, you go through your medical how.

How like how are you now? And what was your process? And what is your process?

So it's an outlet, so like I think most veterans. So yeah, it's a great transition. So i'm you know I opened, uh, I said, Well, when I left the service, I started with industry. So I started right back doing what I know when it was how to be a medic and and you know, working in medical device and I had invented a device on active duty and and took it through the patenting process and then and so

You can always make things better.

There's no perfect device, you know, that's I'm a fun you know, there's probably no perfect weapons system. Rather each other things and you can always make them better. So that's what I'm doing now. So so I've I've really a lot of my patient experiences or and combat deaths

And so what I believe.

Is we got to evolve, like we got to keep getting better. We can't just say well, now we got tourniquits, we're good.

So I know that you know, like during the gare there was a lot of development in tourniicuts, but generally it was just new methods of tightening this same band, right that people are coming up with different types of fasteners and tighteners and things like that. But what you've invented is something novel in the tourniquet space.

Yeah can you can you? Yeah? So so all show it.

So this is essentially, you know, I called it a P three D. It's a pope point pressure device, so you know, I named it myself a little but wanted a little bit of a legacy. And so essentially what it works is targeted pressure. What I kind of figured out is through like junctional and other devices, it's all about having a height offset, which meaning you triangulate pressure to pull things downward, and then having a pressure head.

So essentially.

You have rooms to allow for collateral flow and more importantly venus return because what happens is is when you shut off the arterial system, so the high pressure system of an art in a low pressure system of a vein turn, it gets shut off both systems, right, they're working from it. They keep they just shut everything off, and nothing goes this way, nothing goes that way. When you put like bandages onto tight what'll happen is you'll shut off the venus system, so the return system, but

And what happened start bleeding.

It started bleeding again because it needed pressure like this, but the pain went away. So that's what you loosen it. And I can give you a hundred analogies. It's like it's like going to get in your blood draw You ever had them wrap the thing around too tight and your arm turns purple, But and then it starts hurting, so you unwrap it and then the pain goes away, the purple goes away, but then you start bleeding again.

Yeah, but really it's about.

Yeah you can if.

You guys can see that.

So it applies the pressure wherever you need it, but just at the point that you need it.

And then yeah, and then the height gives it the leverage.

So here I got one. So it's so I also kind of did it in a bandage. I'll just show you so here it is, and these these little channels just allow you to creatively redirect it. But normally a bandage you would just wrap around and to stop the bleeding, you just keep wrapping really tight like this, and you would create a tourniquet like a frect with a bandage. So if you if you just have the height offset, what it does is it isolates pressure downward this way.

And so it's like it's a smart tourniquet.

I mean it's you know, if you think of the old method, it's a dumb tourniquet.

It's just like, yeah, and this is smart. Now. I know you've patent it, have you what's like.

The the proof of concept or the testing procedure for something like this.

So for me, what I've done with it is I've put it through a lot of cadaveric testing. So I when I first left the military, I worked for a big, large medical device company and they specialized and perfused cadavers, and I actually wrote a training program for them for that and help them take that technology to the market, and we actually train a lot of service members sos that actually have flow, so could average that have heart beats, heartbeats.

After the fact.

Yeah, and so, but you can do a lot of just testing on your own through like Doppler testing, you know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just want to say real quick that the company that's.

Doing the profusive cadavers, if you guys start the next zombie apocalypse, I will be pissed.

And what's the name of your company again?

Six eight Medical six.

Eight Medical Solutions? Do we have a link to that? It's in the link, is in the is in the description.

Yeah, and so yeah, these are so they're not up on the website yet because we're we're in manufacturing. They're they're up there in concept, but we we plan to have the stuff for sale here come December January. We're in the like I said, setting up all the manufacturing. The pressure bar may be made right there in South Carolina.

So that's amazing.

So anybody who has a medical kit in your car, which should be everybody your ed YOU'R D E d C kit, check out six eight Medical Solutions and in a few months pick up your what is it called in.

The pope point pressure device, It's a it's a tongue twister, right uh yeah.

So yeah, so.

We have gone really long. I am most of that is because of my rambling. Is there anything that we've left out. Is there anything that you want to cover that?

There's so much you couldn't cover. That's why there's books on the wall. And maybe yeah, I don't know. I don't know if I have a desire to do that, but but no, I think I think that hopefully I I did the folks I wanted to talk about justice as far as just acknowledging their contribution to keeping this nation safe. And I appreciate the opportunity I had to serve and still doing, and I appreciate those that continue

Thank you for your time, and everybody out there, I mean we saw have most of you watching, So thank you guys. You you are the heroes tonight, real troopers.

We really appreciate it. No, but we deeply appreciate you coming up.

We I mean I deeply appreciate you know, you sharing not only your life and your career, but also you know, like the postraumatic stress stuff like it's it's very vulnerable, you know, and it's you know, you're talking to you know several thousand people, and.

I think that the more people are able to talk about it.

The more we're able to normalize it, the easier it is for people who.

Need help to to get the help. So thank you. Let me get to our questions real quick. I don't do do we have anything on? No? All right, Joe.

So we're gonna we're gonna probably breeze through these questions, guys. I mean, we deeply appreciate you guys contributing. How similar were the assaulters at your old unit compared to like the other Tier one units?

Uh? And what was your experience like with those units?

I think we talked about that a lot, and and I think that we could also say that probably that the focus of.

Your unit wasn't really on assault. Joe, Joe's thank you again. Could you talk.

About the culture and caliber of person that makes an SUMU where you were at? Was it pretty brutal? Meritrak meritocracy? Sorry to work there? I mean, people just basically recognize for like for their performance, without like a lot of politics and stuff.

I think that folks, you know, so the senior leader in me says that folks probably weren't recognized enough because there's such a high there's a such a high standard that kind of the things that are normally recognized in your traditional organization are kind of like basic expectations, right, So I say that folks are recognized, but probably not at the same rates as others in other organizations.

But it's.

Yeah, I think, you know, it's maybe the public recognition is what's not there. And I think that's rightfully so, because it's hard to talk about it where you're not supposed to talk. It's like, yeah, how do you recognize it?

Uh, Joe's thank you very much. In the civil affairs work you did. What would happen if you were not able to make amends? Would the Afghan village just become pro Taliban?

We definitely had some places where we could not make it right, Yeah, and so those yeah, I definitely experienced that once or twice. You just try to get out there there without making it worse. And look, you know we're not John Rambo. So like you're not going to start a firefight with three guys against a village, right, So yeah, you just you just yeah, leave it. And so I guess the answer is the likelihood most likely, I guess they are not happy with the US forces, and.

A lot of times it's not just about making it so they're not pro talban like it is done from a place where it's the right thing to do a lot of.

Times one hundred percent.

So yeah, and if that was misunderstood when you're doing those payments, so those are like wrongful death mitigation. It's not because you killed a bad guy and now you're going to pay their family money. That's not the case. Okay, It's that someone was injured, hurt, killed. Most of the time it's killed and it's collateral damage. That is kind of making right, if you will, making an attempt to acknowledge onus without like fully saying like we messed up.

Rs.

Thank you very much. Thank you, CSM and Dave. Of course I had friends at Womack and Triple Nickel. Great talk showman. Thanks man, really appreciate it. Chris Pez, thank.

You very much. Shout out to your Ayah brother.

Normally I don't catch the team house, but I didn't want to miss your podcast.

M Corbin, thank you very much. Be sure to hit that like button.

Yeah ready, Please if you're still with us, which most of you are, please hit the like button. Really appreciate it, and hit the subscribe button too if you haven't already. Budoka, thank you very much. Thank you guys for what you do. Thank you for supporting us. We really appreciate it.

That is our show. This is two ninety nine.

Our three hundred show is going to be four hours of NonStop dungeons and dragons. That's October third. Yeah, so we're going to go off the rails. Yeah, it's a Thursday show. We're going off the rails, getting getting.

Our dragon slang on. But thank you, my friend.

I really appreciate it, and thank you everybody, thanks for hanging with us tonight.

It was a it's a marathon show. And if and you see what happens when Jack's not here. This is this is me. This is my fault. But all right, anybody, thank you very much. M