¶ Introduction
I see AI as democratizing personalization.
Yeah.
Whereas the internet democratized knowledge, you could find the information you needed. It was, you had to do a lot of the legwork, it wasn't personalized to your, what you were exactly trying to understand.
Yeah. Mm
helps you personalize all of that information and knowledge and service, right? And so if I think about what requires a lot of personalization very high on that list, is learning and education. Right, like that is probably the epitome of something where we think about personalization.
Personalized learning has always been a north star for us, and it's where we've really leveraged the community, the mentors that I was talking about earlier, to be able to personalize the learning for the individual versus just lectures and content, for example, which aren't very personalizable.
that makes sense.
Um, so I do see AI and we've leveraged AI quite a bit internally
Oh, cool.
for exactly that. How do students get help way faster than they could before and in a different way? How do they personalize what they're consuming within our learning management system? And you know internally we've even been leveraging AI operationally, uh, generative AI that is, to help us iterate on curriculum. I talked about our curriculum being code. Well, we all know AI can work quite well with text and code. And
¶ Meet Khurram Virani, CTO of Lighthouse Labs
so we actually have things like a curriculum healing bot that monitors for student feedback and then adjusts and suggests changes to curriculum based on feedback in a learning management system to existing activities or lessons in the LMS as GitHub pull requests that can then be reviewed by humans such as myself to be merged in. So it allows us to again, yeah, that flywheel effect is just fantastic.
Hey folks, and welcome to this latest episode of the sustainable tech podcast. I'm your host Raph and today we are going to be talking to Khurram Virani co-founder and CTO of lighthouse labs. Canada's largest tech career accelerator based in Vancouver, BC. I've known Khurram for quite a few years now. We met probably for the first time, many years ago. But didn't chat too much.
And then in the past few years we started chatting a lot more and hanging out and we're always talking a lot about tech. Like that's what we connected over is frameworks and how to organize code, how to teach people, how to code how to make software development more accessible to people but it's been very much about code. 'cause that's a lot of what I do. And that's where our interests intersected a lot I really wanted to dig into lighthouse labs and Khurram's journey to building this thing.
I've actually hired a couple of people from my house labs in the past. And so I already had a sense of how the organization operates to some extent. But I really wanted to get into the meat of it. What drives the people behind it? And how it all started. So I hope you enjoy the episode. I learned a lot from it and it was just a fun chat. Here's my interview with Khurram Hi Khurram. How are you?
¶ The Early Days: Starting Lighthouse Labs in Vancouver
Hey, Raph, I'm good. Thanks for asking.
Awesome. So I'm just gonna dive right into it. Uh, and I just kind of want to know, how you started Lighthouse Labs and like what led you to the point where you were like, yeah, let's do this thing.
Yeah, that's a great question. So Lighthouse Labs was started by myself and a few others out in Vancouver initially, 11 years ago now, in 2013. Yeah, and I'd moved just specifically for that reason from Toronto to Vancouver living on a couch for the first three months. And so it was a wild time in terms of startup. It's a, you know, it's not funded by big VCs or angels or anything like that, so it's very bootstrapped and continues to feel like a startup, even 11 years in.
Um, but at its heart, Lighthouse Labs is more of an education company than a tech company, right? It's tech education,
Mm hmm.
people to enter into technology by going through a very quick and short amount of bootcamp like education whether it's three months or six months. Um, and so that they can actually be technical professionals like software developers, data scientists, or cyber security, professionals. And the impetus for it was actually many years before then. I guess maybe I need to give you a little bit of what my journey, a little bit to actually fully answer the question of how Lighthouse came about.
Yeah.
I've been a technologist and an educator for most of my life since I was probably around 10 years old.
Oh, cool.
And so this kind of goes back to Pakistan where I was born and grew up. But of course at the time it was my parents that made that decision of let's bring a computer into the house. And when I was getting really, really involved with it, let's ask him to volunteer at the local library to teach adults how to use MS DOS and Windows and all
I love it.
So this is going back into the early mid 90s, you know, dealing with 386 or 486. I don't know if the audience is going to be able to relate to these words. Pre pentium, if that means anything to anybody. Uh, you know, pretty much pre internet for me anyway. And it was a kind of falling backward into my passion of tech and education.
Without realizing it, and that followed me through all the way to today, where I, even in high school and other schooling, would always put my hand up to help build curriculum for computer science, or teach the computer science programs, or TA, or what have you. Um, and so that was like a big part of, you know, what I saw myself getting into in my later stages in life.
I guess I always thought I would be a part time instructor at a career college or something later in life as a retirement thing, but coding boot camps happened and I actually had the opportunity to work as a consultant for one of the first ones in Canada, the first one for in Canada, out east in Toronto
¶ Why Vancouver? The Vision Behind the Move
and I helped build their curriculum, was their lead instructor, taught with them for a few cohorts and realized how I'd want to do things a little bit differently and have more control over the experience for students and the outcomes. And took a step back from them and started my own while moving out west to Vancouver. But then quickly also a year later expanding it out to the East Coast.
All right. And
of Canada.
Nice. Yeah, that's epic. And so why Vancouver? Why did you move from Toronto?
I found that Vancouver's tech community was more nascent.
Okay.
Toronto already had a similar offering. Vancouver's was, it seemed ripe for There's a need here that hasn't really been accomplished yet, but also with the goal of going back. Also, personally, I wanted to move out, my wife and I wanted to move out to the West Coast anyway. So it was a little bit of a selfish decision, and honestly, I had to strong arm my other co founders because they were also asking the same question, why are we not doing this in a bigger market first?
Um, but we did move out to Toronto within a year as well, a year and a half of starting.
And how did you meet your co founders?
Uh, actually, so one of them, uh, Josh Borts, I've been, I've had other startups with I had a software agency, even actually while we started Lighthouse Labs, we were operating another business together to provide software consultancy to startups and mid sized companies, and we had clients like, Fasken on the law side, and TD on the banking side, and some healthcare companies as well, so it was going pretty well, but I was also getting in A little bit tired of doing consulting and not having a
product or something that was our own that was longer term. But when I broached the idea with him a little bit after kind of doing a little bit of that part time teaching with the other bootcamp, he liked the idea but didn't want to move out west. I said I wanted to move out west
¶ Building a Startup From Scratch: The Challenges
and so that was a little bit of a contention. And then we agreed that we would need more co founders. So actually initially we started off with six co founders. Which, in hindsight, was a pretty big mistake. Um, that would be my first advice to anybody looking to start something, is maybe don't have so many co founders.
Yep. What do you think is the ideal number? What's the perfect number of co founders?
I'd say three is probably ideal. Two is also great. And, you know, people worry about even numbers and tiebreakers. Honestly, there's so many ways around that. Uh, and it rarely is gonna be an issue. If you're gonna have contention, it'll be with more people, so likely my guess is three is more contentious than two, is more contentious than one, right, in terms of difference of opinions and values and so on.
Yeah. Nice. What were your, like, tangible steps? Like, how did you first actually start building this thing? did you just go out and find a space and say, all right, let's shove some students in here and
So we all moved. There was, there was actually like five of us that, four and a half if you will, that moved from Toronto. We were all East Coast based. Not a single one of us lived in Vancouver. My, my co founders to this day make fun of me that I forced them to move to Vancouver, some of them. Or to start a business in Vancouver, and I had never visited Vancouver
that's so funny,
how are you going there and moving there without at least visiting it? I find, you know, Google Maps Street View is good enough, but, um,
yeah,
it's Canada. but it was, a bunch of them came here earlier, went to a lot of meetups. There was, this type of company, this type of school, needs a lot of inroads and conversation because of it, especially at the time, progressive, different. Change in model approach to education. You need a lot of conversation with especially employers to get the word out, but also get their buy in as the early employers for our grads.
And then of course in that process, meet with people who are looking to enter tech, who are maybe also going to those meetups. So it was a lot, every week we would go to five to six meetups. Sometimes double down on meetups every night and then of course, a lot of meetings that would follow from there that were one on ones, very much in person in the Gastown and Yaletown area of Vancouver.
And how did you develop your curriculum?
Yeah, so, um, although we had a lot of co founders, I was the only one focused on the product side of things at the time. Everybody else was focused on, sales, marketing and
¶ Developing the Curriculum for a Coding Bootcamp
those kind of initiatives, admissions, et cetera, whereas I was focused on building the curriculum. Of course, I had some inspiration or already had my preconceived ideas from having done it before
mm hmm,
and having taught a lot before. So I brought a lot of those values into it. One of those values, for example, being community driven education, where a big emphasis for how we did things, very different than anybody else even in the US that was doing this, was around bringing community into the school instead of you join the community after you graduate the school. When you come to Lighthouse Labs, you are already part of the tech community.
Because there's so much of the tech community already involved not just inception, but in its operation.
yeah, I have to say As someone, you know, I didn't do any of your programs, but I hired someone from your programs. This was in 2015. And I felt like Lighthouse Labs had this like, draw to it. Like, I just felt like people were like, Oh yeah, let's go check out like the stuff that the students are building. And I would meet other people from like the tech sector who were
We were at one point in the first year only around ten people. And whenever people would meet us, they would assume we were like a hundred person company. And that is thanks to actually my co founder, Jeremy Shackey, who is our head of marketing, CEO and all of that. And he's just a brilliant growth hacker marketer. Especially with how we did the first two years.
Where even companies like Telus, et cetera, just assumed that Lighthouse Labs was like 50 to 100 people and had been around for a long time just in the way that we did our marketing and conversations. But another part of that is, again, that bringing that community into the company made the company feel a lot more already integrated even in its first few months.
Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. I'm curious if you can tell me a bit more about like how, like, okay, so you, you were saying how you were kind of sick of consulting, and you wanted like a product, a thing to call your own. I do feel like in some of our like previous conversations, you do sort of frame like Lighthouse as, uh, like it feels like a product.
It is in a way a service, like education is a service, but I feel like some of you are thinking about it and the way that you've described things, even down to the fact that if I understand correctly, you have a custom platform that you build for your students to engage with the material. Um, so yeah, can you tell me more about that? Like how do you think about it? Education as a product.
¶ Community-Driven Education at Lighthouse Labs
How does tech actually fit into that? Why? Why build your own platform? I don't know all of that stuff. I'm really curious.
Yeah, that's a great question. But from day one, we've seen, despite being an education company, we also see ourselves as a tech company. We are constantly working with technologists that are teaching with us, that are mentoring with us, and that are studying with us to become professionals.
And actually, we made the decision early on to build a lot of the software and the curriculum in house instead of licensing or procuring things from external, which was always an option, and many others have pursued that, even for curriculum.
Um, we've built almost all our curriculum, especially in the early days, from scratch, uh, using proprietary, home grown, and actually, by the way, mostly the software that we built was built by our alumni, with oversight from seniors like myself, and a lot of how we actually build our curriculum is very different. We build it using the software development mindset. So we actually write curriculum as code, for example, where it's all written in markdown files.
And all stored on GitHub with, you know, GitHub pull requests for each change and being tracked. And we allow our part time teachers, who are the mentors, to actually contribute changes. And it allows our curriculum to move extremely rapidly. Instead of, you know, Google Docs or your traditional WordPress like content management system where multiple people can't be contributing change, version history, all of these things are problematic we've kind of really streamlined that.
So thinking about our curriculum as our product allowed us to really focus on, well, what does the authoring workflow look like? And believe me, we've used other more common industry standard authoring tools and
¶ From Consulting to Building an Education Product
they have their advantages. They're what you see is what you get type editors, but they're not good for technologists who want to move fast and follow best practices on how you manage content and code.
That's cool. I'm maybe digging a little too much into tech things, but I'm kind of curious, like, what, what is the app? Like, how's it built? I assume, I think it's Ruby on Rails because that's what you used to focus on, I think.
Yeah, we, we definitely eat our own dog food. So a lot of the curriculum, of course it's changed a lot in the past 10 years. You know, the focus on Ruby is less, the focus on JavaScript, Node, and React are way heavier, at least on the web dev side. We have data scientists that we graduate that learn Python and work on data lakes, etc. And actually we're also hired at Lighthouse to help build out our data infrastructure.
Um, but yes, our tech stack, although it's very Intricate, as I mentioned, there's some Python and you know, heavy SQL in there. On the web application side, it's a lot of Node, Ruby, Ruby on Rails, and a lot of React as well. We even have some Angular in there from the good old days that we haven't changed over, old Angular code, I should say. So it depends on which app we're talking about, but there is definitely a heavy reliance on Ruby on Rails.
It's something we still continue to teach, although a lot less than we did in our first few years.
Okay. I'm curious, speaking to that, how do you see, both like the evolution of, like, the tools and the technologies that people are using? What do students want to learn? Like, what do you see in the market? Like, what are people looking for?
It's a great question. I think there's um, definitely it's a shifting landscape right now. Um, I don't think it'll be a surprise to anybody listening, if they're listening in the same year or
¶ The Evolving Tech Stack at Lighthouse Labs
thereabouts, that the market is a little bit, is quite different than it was even a year ago. Where there's a lot of questions about tech, and are there jobs, and what's happening with all the layoffs, and if I go to a school, no matter what length it is is there enough, supply of jobs out there for me to make a dent.
Yeah.
We are seeing, um, of course, students taking a little bit longer to be able to, or graduates taking a little bit longer to be able to find employment. There are good outcomes, but it does take more work on our side and on the student side and more patience to be able to enter the workforce. I would say especially. On the web development side right now, although it's constantly, every month is very different, I find we are seeing an increase in uptick again.
so my prediction is that next year, starting hopefully in Q1, we're going to start to see a fairly big increase in hiring again. Whereas this year has been more on a downward trend.
Yeah. That makes
I would say cyber is our biggest program in terms of interest and in terms of Canada's employment demands. There's thousands of jobs that are unfilled that are either for cyber managers or analysts or pen testers, forensics, those types of things, digital forensics of course, those types of roles are very there's quite a bit of demand for that.
Is that specific to Canada or is that across like the whole industry?
Definitely a whole industry sort of thing, because a lot of the Canadian employers end up being service companies for global markets and the US.
Yeah. Interesting.
Yeah.
I wonder what's prompting that, I mean, you know, I guess we see some pretty high profile attacks that maybe are leading some people to think like, maybe we should take
¶ Trends in Tech Education and Employment
this security thing a bit more seriously.
Yeah. You know, we, what's that saying? Software is eating the world? Joel Spolsky, I think,
Yeah.
from many years ago. Well, anytime there's software and even writing a single line of code, you're introducing surface area for cyber attacks. And so I like to think of myself as the person who's providing those jobs to the cyber security people because I see myself more as a coder versus a cyber expert. And so I always joke with them about how I'm helping get them employed by introducing more and more cyber
Yeah.
attack vectors.
I love it. That's
But yeah, as the world gets more and more software, as these non tech companies employ more and more tech, well, they have to start thinking about cyber attacks and security, especially as data sovereignty. And data security and these bigger attacks come to the limelight, right? Like we don't even necessarily know all of the attacks that happen and the data leaks that happen, just the ones that are reported by the bigger companies.
And so, you know, there's a lot of opportunity in helping shore that up and defend as well.
Yep, totally. What's your take on AI, how that fits into education, how that fits into software development, how that fits into, I don't know, just things in general, but yeah, I
Yeah, I think so. I know there's a lot of camps for AI. I think I was going to say that actually in your last question as well, because AI is obviously another big demand point from students and employers. And I am pretty excited about, although of course, cautiously optimistic, about a lot of the buzz right now with all the major companies pushing AI into all of their platforms and hardware. But we are seeing a lot of excitement and demand from students and employers about it.
I think there's a lot of opportunity. And the reason I think it really impacts
¶ Why Cybersecurity is Booming
our sector is because I see AI as democratizing personalization.
Yeah.
Whereas the internet democratized knowledge, you could find the information you needed. It was, you had to do a lot of the legwork, it wasn't personalized to your, what you were exactly trying to understand.
Yeah. Mm
helps you personalize all of that information and knowledge and service, right? And so if I think about what requires a lot of personalization very high on that list, is learning and education. Right, like that is probably the epitome of something where we think about personalization.
Personalized learning has always been a north star for us, and it's where we've really leveraged the community, the mentors that I was talking about earlier, to be able to personalize the learning for the individual versus just lectures and content, for example, which aren't very personalizable.
that makes sense.
Um, so I do see AI and we've leveraged AI quite a bit internally
Oh, cool.
for exactly that. How do students get help way faster than they could before and in a different way? How do they personalize what they're consuming within our learning management system? And you know internally we've even been leveraging AI operationally, uh, generative AI that is, to help us iterate on curriculum. I talked about our curriculum being code. Well, we all know AI can work quite well with text and code.
And so we actually have things like a curriculum healing bot that monitors for student feedback and then adjusts and suggests changes to curriculum based on feedback in a learning management system to existing activities or lessons in the LMS as GitHub pull requests that can then be reviewed by humans such as myself to be merged in. So it allows us to again, yeah, that flywheel effect is just fantastic.
So do, okay, so like a student submits some feedback and then this bot responds to the feed, or like sees that feedback come in. It
¶ How AI is Shaping Education
has the whole curriculum available and it'll just make suggestions as PRs that someone can then review or update. And.
Yeah, so we have basically tens of PRs being merged in a week that are just a bot created by our curriculum healing bot that we call ShipWrite, because we like to use the nautical names. It does write the ship, you know, it corrects a lot of the mistakes, typos, but also adding more clarity to the instruction where the feedback is unanimous.
And it allows us to constantly not worry about making changes quickly, because then there is the refinement process that follows very, very quickly thereafter as well.
Yeah, that's really cool. I'm just gonna add one little thing for all of the people listening who are non technical. A PR is a pull request, which is when you submit a change that you want someone else to, yeah, review and merge into
Yeah. I should have clarified that.
Yeah, that's super cool. I guess you've got a whole sort of product development workflow, both around the curriculum and around the tech that helps you manage the curriculum. Are they split or is it, I mean, in a way, it's like one product. How do you, yeah, how do you treat that?
I would say the main thing that we look at as our product is what students and employers interact with.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Our end users are people that go through our program, interact with our mentors, interact with our curriculum, yes, and our software, but I would see the product as what the experience, the whole experience, not just the content,
Mm hmm.
that students go through in their three to six month journey to becoming a technologist.
Yeah.
There's also the career services side, of course, which I would call very much part of the product, right? Like, after you graduate, after three to six months, depending on your program, you're then on the job hunt for three to six months at least, right, usually? And we have a very strong career services team that has been a big reason for our success.
And their connections with employers and the white gloving, the coaching and the connections that they provide to students, the network that they provide, right? So that whole experience from, you know, admissions all the way to getting a job is the product, right? It's also a service. Of course there's services elements to the product. And then you can also argue, and I would agree with you, that the employers also. Can be viewed as end users because they are hiring our grads.
So we are constantly in conversation with, when I say community,
¶ Using AI to Personalize Learning at Lighthouse Labs
also the employers about how things are going, what trends they're seeing shifting, what do they wish we had taught more to our grads for all three of our major programs.
As an organization, how do you frame like your mission? And how do you frame, like, how do you think about, uh, I guess sort of like KPIs, like how do you measure the impact that you're having against like your desired impact in the world? If that makes sense.
That's a great, that's a great question. It's funny you talk about mission and vision. It took us, I think, five years to realize that we really need to think and spend time and lock ourselves into a room and come up with the mission and vision, which honestly wasn't quick and easy. It sounds like an easy thing, especially because we had a solution and a product to begin with on day one, and we had product market fit right away as well. Right? Uh, we were lucky in that way.
But, I'm pretty proud of the mission and vision that we created. Took us, I would say, a lot of conversation, maybe around a half a year of lots of different meetings and iteration and workshopping it. Um, but we did kind of reverse engineer it from why we started and we have to really ask ourselves why we started many years later. Um, but yeah, I would say our, our vision is to make technological change a source of opportunity for everyone and not just a select few.
I love that. That's awesome.
Our mission to accomplish that vision is to effectively train individuals in the necessary skills and technology and data to succeed in constantly, in the constantly evolving workforce. Right?
Cool.
So, it really is about that effective, efficient, just in time learning,
Mm-Hmm?
right through a lot of heavy mentorship and community integration. But really the end goal is about making sure that a large swath of the population, and not just a select few who can afford private education, for example, uh, have access. So, the next question should be, well, but you are a private career college in a way, right? You have pretty expensive tuition. We have a lot of value for that tuition.
So how do people then get access to that who are more equity deserving but don't necessarily have the funds?
Yeah.
And this is where we're most proud. The last five years, it took us a while to convince not just employers of, look, people can go through this kind of very short, intense program and come out, not just technologists, but also people that can contribute from week one, month one of their job. As an, as an employee, but it took a while for, of course, government to start
¶ Making Tech Education Accessible: Equity and Impact
seeing Lighthouse Labs as a very impactful player in the tech ecosystem, not just in Vancouver, not just in Toronto, but we had satellite locations before going fully remote, of course, uh, during COVID, we had satellite locations in Victoria and Ottawa, Halifax, Calgary, et cetera. And, you know, once we had that presence and that footprint, we started conversing with government and.
I'm pretty proud of what, uh, Jeremy, my co founder, and many others in the company, have been able to accomplish with our government partnerships. I think even universities and colleges that have been established here in Canada are, they not only know about Lighthouse, but they see us as very good channels into, and good partners for going into big government grants and proposals. So as an example, most recently we just finished a near, just north of 20 million.
Um, we were given that money to work with various different partners, universities, we worked with hundreds of different community partners in Canada to give equity deserving groups, BIPOC, LGBTQ, Indigenous First Nations, women in tech, access to our education or similar education to enter the technology field without having to pay those dollars. So a lot of that, most of that money was, wage subsidies and tuition subsidies to be able to actually get access.
And so, when you look at our vision from that perspective, and a lot of many other government partnerships that we've done for soldiers, for black youth, etc. It's been actually amazing. That's been the most rewarding part of this. Is the individual stories, as well as the impact to equity deserving groups that we've been able to do, despite being a for profit private education company.
Well, yeah, thanks for, for sharing all of that and, uh, yeah, it's, uh, it's time for you to share that product. What product have you brought us on this small tech podcast?
Yeah, so actually, funny enough that you ask, I've, for the last few weeks, only discovered this product very recently. It's a mobile app that I use on my Android, I'm pretty sure they have an iOS app. It's called Yuka. Have you heard of Yuka?
Yuka?
Y U K A
I think someone, someone has told me about that.
You might have seen my post, because I actually like it so much, and I rarely ever do this. A, I post it on threads, okay? And I posted about a mobile app that everybody should try, like, when was the last time I did either of those two things? It's pretty rare, but I was so excited about it. So what this does is, it's been around for 10 plus years. Um, it only fell on my radar recently, but it allows you to scan any basically consumable product.
So anything you really see at a grocery store, I'm always out with my phone now with the app open. And I'm scanning products to see what their score out of 100 is
¶ The Mission and Vision of Lighthouse Labs
in terms of health impact to me. What are the chemical additives? What's the sugar level like? And it gives it a score like, oh, this is a 38 out of 100. Here's other products that are similar to this ramen that are better for your health, right? So I love, I love using that. It's really changed how I shop.
Yeah. I feel like I could definitely see myself using something like that. That'd be really
And a really cool founder story as well. I think there's two founders and they've come a long way and they have a really cool blog as well as a lot of health related, like how to be a better eater, for the most part,
That's awesome. Sweet. Cool. Thanks, Kram. It's been, uh,
I hope I didn't, uh, I hope I didn't talk my ear off or talk too fast.
No, this is great. No, no, no. This is, this is awesome. And I feel like I, it was fun. Like, it's always fun to, to, to learn about what, uh, what people do, but it's also like interesting. For me to speak to people who I already know Folks. That was my interview with Khurram Virani. Co-founder and CTO of lighthouse labs.
Everything from, crashing on a couch for his first three months in Vancouver and how to develop curricula and how to bring tech education to people who haven't had access to it before. I really loved learning about his journey. It's always fun for me too. Learn about these things From people that I know, but whose journey I don't really know in that much depth. So I thought it was awesome.
I care very, very deeply about expanding access to technology and getting more and more people building tech that serves their own needs their own purposes. I think that's really important. So I think lighthouse is doing something awesome. If you are not yet subscribed to the podcast, you can do that at sustainabletechpodcast.com. You can find us on YouTube on your favorite podcast app. Any sort of rating review all of that stuff helps us out a lot. So please do it.
Yeah, we're a small team and, uh, everything you can do really helps us out. And we would really love any feedback. If there's anything you would like to hear about, like basically any feedback, shoot us a message. We'll take it into account. Yeah. We'd love to hear from you. If you want to show up on the podcast, let us know, shoot us an email at hello@sustainabletechpodcast.com. And we will get back to you.
Especially if you're doing something in tech, something innovative to help create a more sustainable future.
¶ Closing Thoughts and a Cool Product Recommendation
Economically socially, environmentally. In the meantime, we all want to do something good in the world. So go out there and build something good folks. I will see you in the next one. See ya.