Hey, what's up, and welcome back to another episode of the Straight Shooter Recruiter podcast. I'm your host, Emily Durham. I have been in a talent acquisition space for over seven stinking years. I've been featured in BBC and as of today when I'm recording this, I've officially launched my first column with Canadian Business Magazine, where I am writing a monthly column answering reader questions on all things careers. So super excited about that. I will say mood is
still not fantastic. Meta just announced sister second or third round of layoffs. I want to say it's their second round and they laid off ten thousand people today, an additional ten thousand because their last round of layoffs, which I
think was in September of twenty twenty two, was eleven thousand people. Just for some perspective and for some context, about a year and a half to two years ago, when Meta went through a massive period of growth with recruiting, they actually hired twenty two thousand people, which means they had an additional twenty two thousand in heads or head count like bodies in seats essentially than they did three years ago. Great news for them. We love growth, we
love sustainability, blah blah blah. When they hired that many people, they basically admitted that they created too many layers of management, so that work became really unproductive and it basically just slowed the whole organization down. And that is the reason they justified these layoffs was that things were moving too slowly and they needed to reprioritize. And I guess the reason I feel so rattled by this because I know a lot of companies are being impacted by layoffs and a lot
of people have been impacted over the last couple of years. I actually think there's been over one hundred thousand people laid off in North America in the last year, which is absolutely devastating. But I think what really gets me about this one is the fact that they basically made this out of like a poor structural decision. They made really bad decisions around how they would structure their business, and it was a decision. I think That's what I'm really hung up
on is this was a conscious decision on how to structure the business. And wouldn't anybody who is in this world know that adding more layers of management, especially at a tech company is obviously not going to help. Like what did you think was going to happen here? Like what was your expectation here? I just I don't understand. And then you do all of this, all of this crazy hiring, You make these decisions to add more layers to your company, and then a year later you go, whoops, I guess it
doesn't work. Let's just lay off ten thousand people. Like I just I don't understand all to say, like a bit of a rant to start this episode off with, but my heart is beyond going out to everyone who was impacted by a layoff, not just at Meta but anywhere, because it makes things just extra stressful. Looking for work is hard. Looking for work under circumstances like this in this environment way harder, just so much harder. Anyways,
I go went into such a wormhole reading about this Facebook. I can't. I have to stop saying facebooks. I know Meta is more than Facebook, but forgive me, we'll let it slide. I'm rattled. I just was reading so much about why they did this, the how, the reasoning. Because sometimes layoffs happen because of finances, this that or the other. Y'all actually just made bad business decisions and are punishing the people you hired for that, and it just freaking repulses me. But how are you, guys,
how are you doing? Hopefully that wasn't too negative of a note to start off with, but it's fresh on my mind and it's fresh on my heart, and just yeah, really needed to talk about that because holy crap, and a couple of my friends were impacted. It's just a whole thing.
But today I do want to focus on something other than layoffs, because I do have a lot of content on layoffs specifically, but I do want to spend a little bit of time really helping with a pretty key decision that helped drive my career and helped kind of sway my career and I actually get asked this a lot in my comments, especially in my DMS on Instagram is what matters more education or experience, So I definitely want to spend a little bit of time talking about that, and then, as usual, I will
be answering your burning, burning questions at the end of this episode. So if you want yours answered, Hello, you can always click the link in this description and send it on in for a chance for me to answer your questions. Okay, let's get into it, shall we. Before people started asking what comes first, the chicken or the egg, I'm pretty sure they started asking what matters more education or work experience. And I have a lot
of mixed opinions. I've also gotten a lot of expert advice on this because in my own journey, in my own career, I actually almost went back to school. So, as you know, I studied human resources. I went to York University and that was an undergraduate degree, and after that I really wanted to get into law. And I was kind of on the fence about going directly into law school. Maybe I'd consider a master's. I was just kind of weighing out my options, but I was ninety percent sure I
was going to pursue some kind of higher education. I also just generally really like school, so it didn't really feel like work to me. I love learning, I love the school environment. And I also just mentally didn't feel ready to be an adult in the workforce, because in my mind, the second you start a full time job, you're an adult, you know what. I'm twenty seven now, been in the workforce for seven years. Let me tell you, you never actually feel like an adult. But that's neither
here nor there. We're just going to let nineteen year old me slide. So at that period in my life, I was really on the fence about if I should or shouldn't pursue higher education. And I met with so many people. I met with professors, my family, like friends, mentors. I just asked everybody what their opinion was, and there were a lot of different opinions. And I don't want you to get confused and do the same thing where you're like, oh my god, what's the right path for me?
I'm basically just going to tell you in summary what all of the good advice was, without you having to contact everybody in their cousin. Almost every single person I spoke to asked me the exact same question. It's a question I really want you to ask yourself as well. What is my return on investment here? Yeah, So if you're going to continue your education and go get your masters, go pursue whatever it might be, how long is it going to take you to make back the money that you have spent on this
higher degree of education? So if your MBA is one hundred and ten thousand dollars, which I'm literally throwing up thinking about that. That's so expensive. How long is it going to take for you to match that back and not just make it in your salary, but like actually be able to pay that back Because your school debt is one more thing holding you back from homeownership,
from travel, from investing, for making your money work for you. So if you're not going to be able to pay that off in a relatively short period of time, that's probably a sign you're not getting your return on investment. Because if that degree was really going to propel your career to the next level, shouldn't you be financially a little bit more stable and able to pay it back a little bit quicker. I know that's not always the case.
For example, the first couple of years of you being an articling student, after finishing your law programs and your law schooling, you're not going to make a crazy amount of money. But in ten years, oh mama, you're going to make money with a capital M, so you are going to make
it back. I think if you're on the fence, the first thing you need to do is be realistic from a numbers perspective and ask yourself, Okay, how much is this school and going to cost me, and how much do I realistically project that I'm going to make back and the next five to set in years? Okay, hands down. Next thing you're for sure going to ask yourself is what's the return on investment in terms of my career trajectory?
Basically, what you need to think about is how likely is it that you're going to get promoted faster and move up on the career ladder because you have your masters or your MBA, whatever your degree is. There's not a lot of industries where I actually think it's going to make a difference. I'm kind of giving you a spoiler on my personal opinions, but yes, and finance, yes, and consulting. Having an MBA it's borderline critical, like
that's how you get to the director level and above. And I will talk about how to do that without actually paying any money in just a second. But every other industry, I'd be hard pressed to find a company where it's like, oh yeah, sorry, you can't be senior manager because you don't have your masters. That's just not common. It definitely was fifteen years ago, but that's really not how the world works anymore. That's not really how
the gig economy that we operate in works. It's not a thing like that's just not how people operate anymore. So unless you think it's going to propel your career and you're going to make the money back, I would highly recommend you listen to this next thing I'm about to tell you. Okay, I'm definitely going to tell you my personal opinions on this in just a second,
and ultimately i'll tell you what I decided to do for myself. But if you're on the fence about whether or not you should be going back to school or if you should just jump right into the workforce after school or go get your master's, I want you to make a pros and cons list. And I literally tell people to do this when it comes to dating, Like if you're on the fence about your partner, make a list of all of the pros and all of the cons and see which weighs out the other. It's
kind of the same thing. This is a massive life decision, this is a massive financial undertaking. You need to be very strategic and deliberate. This is not the kind of decision you take just because you feel like doing something or you want to do something, you also want to make sure it's not an ego driven decision, which ultimately I kind of realized was a little bit influencing me. I just wanted to be able to say I had a master's.
That's not a great reason to have a master's in my humble personal opinion. If it was free, maybe yeah, but with the price it currently is, me thinks the hell not. So just be honest with yourself. Make a pros and cons list on my personal list, because yes, I actually did make one. My pros were that it would be a proud moment for me aka ego booster. Love it for my ego, love it for
myself. I also thought that it would be great to kickstart my career and that it would show I have an additional level of academic experience might help me stand out. Other than that, I genuinely could not think of anything other than the fact that I like school and I didn't feel like working yet. So that was my pros list. My cons list was that I don't know where I thought I was getting this money from. Your girl was not made
of money. Your girl is still not made of money. I don't know where I thought I was about to go fork out one hundred K for a master's degree like that was just not going to happen. I also was concerned about how much this would impact my ability to get into the workforce, because
I didn't know if people would value experience more than education. I did have a few other cons in there, just including my stress level, my anxiety level, probably having to move away from home and where I was currently living
because the schools I wanted to go to were not local. There was just a lot of things that most of which boiled down to it financially just not being a great call for me. And let me tell you why not getting my masters was probably the best decision I have ever made in my entire career. This is also probably going to answer your question of which of the two
is more valuable, experience or education. Everyone's situation is different. You need to do what makes you feel great in your career, what's important to you. For me, personally, it was not the right call financially, but let me tell you why else. It was kind of a blessing that I decided not to move forward. I have learned in my seven year career as a recruiter that most employers care more about your work experience than they care about
your education. After you land your first full time job, I promise nobody gives a shit what your GPA is. Nobody cares. I don't care if your degree was summa cum laude. I don't care if it was honors. I don't care if you just barely scraped by once you get that piece of paper. In ninety percent of the industries that we operate and work in North America, it is irrelevant now having a master's or an MBA. All of
those things are amazing, amazing qualifications. Trust me, they are fantastic, and later in your career that can be the reason you do or don't get promoted. But in the first five to ten years of your career, it is not going to make that much of a difference. Eighty percent of the time, especially if you're focusing on breaking into an industry or starting your career.
Most employers want you to have hands on work experience. And if you do that, if you commit to landing the job after you graduate without going back to school, and you work at a company that has decent benefits,
basically any bank, government or like mid size and above organization. They usually have programs that will help subsidize your education, meaning they will pay for a portion of your degree, that master's degree, or that MBA as long as you choose to work there during your education, and usually they make you sign something to say, hey, you've got to work with us for another two years after you complete it. It is as simple as that. You don't
have to pay for your higher education. And getting higher education on yourself, not only financially, can be very stressful and a very heavy burden to carry. But if you choose to go the academic rout over experience, you're missing out on what is the most valuable currency in today's job market, which is hands on experience. Okay, your questions this week are ten out of ten
juicy, So I'm just going to jump right into it. Dear Emily, How can I tell if I'm actually going to be promoted or if I'm getting used? Okay, let's jump in for context. I'm in retail, I'm working on getting promoted to a leadership position, and I have been at the company for five years in July. Congrats, that is fantastic. You've been working on trying to get promoted since twenty twenty. Holy smokes, Okay,
it's been three years. Also, can you tell him? Reading this for the first time, I feel like I'm live reacting with you on FaceTime. I was told about a year and a half ago that my interest in being promoted was being taken into account and that I was put into the pipeline and a plan was drafted and I was put into a development plan. Fantastic. This development plan has just been me being taken out of the team I usually
work on and being put into other departments and taking on those responsibilities. I've been told to be patient, and they're putting me where I'm needed right now until certain changes are implemented in this store in the spring. What do I do? Oh my gosh, Okay, lots to unpack. First of all, congrats on five years. That's fantastic. Twenty twenties a long time.
And let me tell you my immediate reaction to this. Like I said, I don't read these before because I want my honest feedback to be shining through. I do think it's a red flag. And here's why. You have been asking for a promotion for almost three years. You've been asking for a promotion since twenty twenty. That is a long time. We went through a whole ass pandemic, okay, in the last three years, and they can't
what promote you. I also think it's a little bit sketchy that their development plan is basically free labor, because it sounds like what they're doing is taking you from a department you're good at and putting you in other departments so you can learn and help out in YadA YadA, basically giving you more work without a new title and without new pay. And if this was six months or a year, or even a year and a half, I probably wouldn't batten
eye. I'd be like, you know what, it's good. You kind of need to get that diverse experience in order to be a leader, especially in the retail space. Three years is what I'm hung up on. Something about that is just a little suspicious. I don't really like that that's not adding up to me. So I don't like that they're telling you to be patient. I don't like that your development plan really hasn't changed in three years.
I can't tell you for certain if you are or are not going to be promoted, but what I will say is I do think they're throwing you for a loop. I would book a meeting with this manager or whoever the person is you speak to and say, hey, thanks for all of these growth opportunities. It's been about three years. Is it possible for me to get some clear timelines on when we're looking at my promotion or if there are specific skills I'm still not demonstrating so I can close those gaps in advance.
Basically, I think you need to very very clearly have them outline what the next steps are. Otherwise you're straight up going to work at this company forever and nothing is going to change. Dear Emily, I have had some really bad issues with my manager being mean and rude and belittling me constantly, to the point where he literally ignores me when I send emails or chats and when
I have questions. I brought it up to my director and he basically said, sorry, he shouldn't be treating you this way, and said, are you willing to give him another chance if he promises to never be rude again? And my response was, well, if sweeping it under the rug is the only solution, that I guess, I have no choice do I honestly sleigh. I love that response. Since then I was talking to my boss and he admitted that he was being a dick and apologize and said thank you
for staying because he knows that I could have left this job. And now it's all happening again. I've only been working here for a little under two years, and I can't take it anymore. I'm seeing a therapist, psychiatrist. I'm on medication for my depression and anxiety and sleeping pills just to say somewhat calm. Help. What do I do? Oh my god, Oh my god. First of all, wow, I'm like, I'm literally speechless, and you know I'm never speechless. I always talk. I'm so sorry.
This is something that you're experiencing. This is disgusting, This is unacceptable. This is not normal. It is normal sometimes for work to stress us out. But can I tell you something. What you are experiencing is bullying. That is bullying in the workforce from the worst possible person it could come from, which is your manager and your manager's manager. My biggest issue with this whole thing. I'll get to your manager in a second. Trust me,
they are not coming out unscathed. It's your director. How dare your director respond to you raising a concern saying oh, I'll get him to stop. Please, don't worry about it. I'll get him to stop, or can we just deal with it? Excuse me? The manager is an asshole, but the director is complicit, which is basically saying, yeah, it's totally fine, I'm okay with how this manager is reacting and how this manager
is behaving. That for me is the biggest red flag, because a good director or a good manager would have said, I'm so sorry this is happening. This behavior is unacceptable. I'm going to go meet with your manager, put them on a development plan. They're going to get better, or they're going to get fired, because that is the only appropriate response. So, firstly, shame on your piece of shit director, Literally, that is a
horrible person. Secondly, the fact that your manager literally acknowledged that they're being an asshole. Pardon so you mean to tell me you knew you were being an absolute piece of garbage, treating me like crap, being disrespectful, being rude, setting me up to fail, and you were like, yeah, that's okay. That is unacceptable, because that shows me it's a choice. The fact that he acknowledges he was treating you poorly, and the fact that
he's doing it again shows me it's not an accident. It's not an off day. This is a strategic decision. You have two options here, and they both suck. I'm going to be so honest with you. Number one, one hundred percent go to your HR representative. And I want you to go to HR if that's an option, because they will protect you. Their job is to protect you, and trust me, they're going to get heated
when they hear this, because this is unacceptable. If that's not an option, maybe you don't have like NHR rep at your company or it's a small company. You need to report this to the Human Rights Tribunal, and wherever you live, there's one for Ontario, there's one for different provinces, provinces or states. You need to report this because this is bullying and if they're not going to make it right, the government will, and at Labor Board
most certainly will. So that's your first thing you're going to do as this is happening. I want you to apply for other jobs. I know it's a shitty market and nobody wants to be applying for other jobs. Right now, But I do have some bad news. The fact that this toxic behavior goes all the way up to the director level tells me everyone at this company is a piece of shit. So even if it gets better with this manager, maybe they improve or maybe they move you to a new team, at
its core, this company is toxic. I'm so sorry you are going through this. You might find resolve in speaking with HR, but my gut is telling you, my friend, you need to hashtag quit your job. Hey, Emily, can I back out from my job two days before I'm supposed to start? Okay, technically yes you can, But you can also punch your mom in the face, which is the wrong thing to do. So
here's my personal stance. If this happens, there is a very high likelihood that recruiter places you on a blacklist, which means they're never going to put you forward for another position at that company, and potentially they're going to remember your name and avoid you when they work at other companies in the future. So it is a really, really bad reflection of your personal brand. With that being said, the entire point of your career is to be selfish and
to make the right decisions for you. If your dream job just popped up and you now have the opportunity to take it on, absolutely go for it. Make sure you call the company you explain the situation. Explain to them that it's your job. However, if it's just about money and this other company is willing to offer you more, go back to the company that initially gave you an offer and say, hey, I just received an offer for this amount. What can you do to match it? And then at least
you're giving them the opportunity to step up to the plate. All to say, it's not impossible. It's not the worst thing in the world. There's way wor that you could do, Like, don't stress yourself out. Is it a great practice? I'm going to be so real with you. Probably not. I would avoid it if possible, But you gotta do what's right for you. Oh my gosh, there are so many questions this week. I could literally spend a lifetime going through them. But that's what next week
is for. So just make sure that you're leaving a rating and review for this show. It genuinely helps me grow. It helps me get sponsorships so I can do this all the time. That's kind of the goal and if you want more content for me, I post two YouTube videos a week, every single week, as well as on TikTok and Instagram, so you can check me out there. But thank you so much for hanging out with me, and I'll talk to you next Sunday