My next guest has spent more than four decades monitoring America's border. He joined the United States Border Patrol in nineteen eighty four. In twenty thirteen, he was appointed by then President Barack Obama as Immigration and Customs Enforcements Executive Associate Director. He was charged with enforcement and removal operations under that administration. Then, in twenty seventeen, he was appointed as the Acting Director of ICE by then President Donald Trump. However,
he subsequently retired from the position in twenty eighteen. Now he's back with President Trump in this new administration. As the borders are. Please, welcome to the Stephen A. Smith Show. Mister Tom Holman s Horman.
How are you, sir? How's everything?
I'm doing great.
Being on the show. Let's get right to it.
I wanted to remind our audience that you served under President Obama. He tapped you to lead the Immigration and Customs Enforcements Deportation Branch at twenty thirteen. How does your role differ now between the Obama and the Trump administrations? How does it different from what it was then to what it is now.
Well, look, under President Obama, I was ahead of enforcement remover operations. When I was there. We oversaw the removal of to Shire three million illegal aliens. Now I'm the I'm Bordzar under President Trump. I have a direct report to the President here, so I overlook The presidents signed me on this new role. I oversee border operations. I got three goals, secure the borders, run a deportation operation,
a massive deportation operation. And third find this some children, children that were smuggling into the country and the last administration lost track of them. We need to find these children because many of them will be in Harmon's way. Many are, but we need to find these children, make sure they're safe.
And I mentioned that Donald Trump at a point that you as active director of Vice at twenty seventeen, but you retired in twenty eighteen. What happened then and why you back now? Because you stepped away, but obviously you came back. You served over thirty years. I mean, you've given your service and what have you. And you could have retired and went out into the sunset, but you came back.
Why did you feel compelled to do so? So appleseiate that with hold my audience.
Well, it's the second time I came back and out of retirement from President Trump didn't. Me and my wife were happy. But now how do you not come back? I mean under the last four years. You know, I wake up every day upset in the last four years because we had the most secure border in my lifetime, and I've done it since. As you said nineteen eighty four, it's more secure border in my lifetime.
The numbers proved it.
And what the last administration did when opened the border up, I knew every day when I woke up, more women and children are being sex traffick across an open border. More Americans would die from fatonyl overdoses, poisonings because of an open border. Sex trafficing women and children would increase on an open border, and more no inspected terrish and people on the wash list, We'll get into the country
through an open border. So I was insulted that President Biden took the most secure border in my lifetime and unsecured it on purpose.
And I mean that.
Look, I worked for six presidents starting round Reagan. Every president I worked for, including Obama and Clinton, took steps to security the border. If they clearly understood you can't have national security if you don't have border security. President Biden, the first president history of this nation who came in unsecured border, so and upset me. Can I you every day someone's going to die across that border. Women are
going to be sex yourself to across that border. So when President Trump called me, it is you know, he asked me if I if you want to come back and you know, help fix that border. I didn't hesitate. I came back because I think it's the right thing to do.
You've worked, obviously doing what you've done.
It's spanned decades, so obviously one could easily surmise you have a lot of intel. You have a lot of access to information that the average American citizen may not know.
What have you?
Let me ask you this, And I don't mean to ask it politically, but I'm asking it this way. Have you received any kind of explanation as to why former President Biden literally went against what former President Barack Obama did during his presidency one and in the number show he actually deported more immigrants out of this country than Trump did. Yet Biden comes into office in twenty twenty,
and he went completely against what Obama had done. You ever received intel explanation as to why he did that.
You know, that's a great question. You're the first one to ask me that question. Right now.
I surmise I have an opinion that I think this administration thought these millions of people are going to be future Democratic voters. But one of the things Biden also did, in addition to destroying all the programs we put in place that give us some more secure border, he over Trump overturned the Trump's census rule, which means millions of people they released the sanctuary cities will be counted in the next census, which is going to result what more
seats and house for the damage. So I truly believe they saw offut your political benefit of this. But you're exactly right, and I've said this, Why do I think he did it on purpose? Because Joe Biden was vice president under Barack Obama.
When he had those record removals.
Ali Hondo Majorkis was a deputy secretary under Obama. Won't have those remove and we had a families, We had thousands of families coming across the border every day.
How do we stop it.
We built family residents and centers. We held them long enough to see a judge ninety percent lost the case ninety percent. So if I'm in the airplane, send them home. Border numbers ten. So both those men knew how we solved that crisis. When it came back in as now the Secretary and the president, what do they do the complete opposite. They didn't defend, they released, then, didn't make them see a judge, and.
They weren't removing them.
So they did the complete opposite of what they knew worked under President Obama.
Wow, let me ask you this though, because you mentioned children on several of your answers already, and I know you mentioned you're trying to find children that were separated from their parents.
How does that process work? Actually?
How do you go about the business of finding, you know, children that have been separated from their parents.
Well, look, that's I'm gonna be honest with it, been honest from day one. That's just that's going to be the hardest out of the three goals that I have, that is going to be the hardest, and for obvious reasons, half men and children, more than half men and children were smuggling in the country, separated from their parents, putting the hands of criminal cartels to be brought in this country legally, and you know you and I we leave our child in the car in the middle of summer,
we'll get arrested. But these five hundred thousand children were putting hands or criminal cartells released into the country by the last administration. Last administration was concerned about one thing, optics.
So the.
Instructions to O r R, which is division AHHS, was to process release as quickly as you can, because if there's no overcrowding, we can say the board is secure.
Nothing to see here, right.
Even the Secretary of AHHS, but Sarah, on stage several times he was bragging how quickly they released these children so so called sponsors. Here's the problem. They didn't bet these sponsors appropriately. Under Trump administration, we did DNA testing. We not only sponsored, we not only betted a sponsor, we betted everybody in that household to make sure there wasn't a child predator in that household, make sure there wasn't a gang member in the household. We took a
lot of steps to make through. These children gonna be saved when they're sent to the sponsors. Under this administration, the whistleblowers at HHS has made it clear many of these sponsors weren't fingerprinted many of them, they weren't run through record checks, and many of the identification they provided was not assured that there was a legitimate identication. So here's the issue. Now, we got three hundred thousand children we need to find, and there's a way to find
you and me, Steven. We have a footprint, we have a digital footprint. We owned homes, we owned cars, we pay bills, we got we got loans, you know, and we got we.
Got utility bills. Whatever. They can find us.
But a child don't have that digital footprint, which means we got to use the digital footprint of the sponsors and what information they provided, and we know a lot of the information is fraudulent. So it's gonna be a difficult job. I can tell you right now. We'll find some of these children, and not every one of these children are in harms way.
Many of the won't find there with their parents. Many of them are not.
Based on my four decades of doing this, many of these children in forced labor. We already found many in forced labor. Some are going to be in sexual slavery, and so we need to find these children and save them. But that's the hardest part about this job because of the data that we have is not the best data in the world. But we're not going to give up. President Trump's committed to do everything we kind of find these children.
Let me get back to you with this question too.
Though, you're considered one of the master minds of the first Trump administration's infamous zero tolerance policy, which led to the separation of thousands of migrant children from their parents. In the eyes of many, at the very least, the idea led to the separation of more than I think four thousand children from their parents, and some were lamenting
that some of them will put in cages. How do you answer these questions for those that don't know, how do you answer questions like that, like I just post to you in terms of four thousand children being separated from their parents?
Absolutely so, where does zero talents come from? Zero challenges came from this? Thirty one percent of women that make the journey get raped by the macartels. Children were dying on that border every day, dying either drowning the river, dying making that journey. Children were sexually assaulted, and children were dying in the desert. You know, they made that journey, and a lot of women and children not only died, many were sexual assaultants. So we said, look, how can
we save lives? How can we stop the sexual assault the children? So we said, look, let's prosecute them because it's a crime dangerous country legally. So if we prosecute them and put them in jail, maybe the numbers go down, maybe less will come. And it worked zero talents that the numbers of families put themselves in harms way to
and put themselves in hands of criminal cartels drop significantly. However, the saddest part about it, the unfortunate part about it, is that when you prosecute a parent and put them in jail, the child won't go with them. And I'll say this, I started as a police officer in New York. Police agencies across this country separate families a thousand times a day across this country. Child doesn't go to jail
with a parent. And I've said during my testimony one time I was tested my hell, when I was a cop in New York, when I went to domestic bonus car and I arrested the father, I separated that family.
Child can't go to jail with them.
When I wrestled Dui and he had a child in the car, I separated that family. It's an unfortunate and satisfying law enforcement. Families get separated when the parents get arrested. So we do let the families a thousand times a day in this country with Americans. But they want a different set of rules for illegal aliens. But the whole intent of doing this was to save lives with less sexual assaults of women and children. That was the whole purpose for it. But they keep hertputting on that Trump's
family separation policy. But and you're right about four thousand, but they don't talk about the five hundred thousands half the main separations that this administration responsible for, because they send a message to the whole world. If you're a child and across country illegally, you're not.
Going to be deported. Will deliver you to the.
Very same people who pay the criminal cartel the smuggling in this country.
So you know, we did.
What we did was try to save lives and decrease sexual assaults. What they did was send a message the whole world. Jalok across the border will get them to the final destination at government expanse and reward the people who pay the criminal cartoons bring and that's why the numbers exploded, because there's no consequence. We had a consequence they did.
That's an incredibly, incredibly compelling answer that you just gave. I can't refute it, No one should, as far as I'm concerned, sir. But I would ask you this because, whether it's optics or it's a reality, listening to what
you said, how sensitive you are to these issues. What one would argue diametrically opposes that is when we see one story, and granted it's one individual, but it's still a ten year old in Texas who's a US citizen being deported to Mexico, you know, suffering from brain cancer. You've seen that story plastered all over the news wise over.
The last couple of days.
How do you explain your mode of thinking and your explanation.
About why you do what you do and why.
You're admitted to doing what you're doing, which is pretty damn close to irrefutable, I might add, But then we see a case like that happening, how do you just look?
You and I are in the same page. Actually, I've been on travel last couple of days. I saw that on my way to work this morning. I read that story, and what did I do? I immediately contacted the Office of the Board Chow, and said, I want facts in this case, cause many times the facts are different when you read the media. But I've already inquired about it. What happened here? What's the ground tooth here? So so I'm looking into it.
I just I've read that story this morning. I know, on my day behind, but I get hundreds of phone calls, one hundred texts, I have a lot of meetings, I'm on my airplane on time. But I've asked this morning because we want to make sure. Look, I've been honest from the beginning. We want to be transparent American people. If we screw up, we didn't know, we screw up if we do something. So I've already asked that question.
I don't have the facts on the end. I've asked for fact ground truth on that and I'll deal with it once I get the facts that on the ground from what actually happened, because many times what you read the media, they leave half the story out.
Sometimes they don't. But I'm going to find out. Well.
I appreciate that answer. That's very honest to stand up for you. Thank you for saying that. Are you saying that you don't know all the facts?
Shit?
And if you do find out that this ten year old child was indeed a United States citizen, that you will make sure that child is not deported.
I'll make sure I get all the facts, will make the decision based on the facts. I can't tell you what I'm gonna do. Yeah, the facts could be a thousand different ways, right, but like, are the parents of public safety threat? Are they national security? They can't be here, and so we got to find out where the facts are. But we'll make we'll make a decision that is the most humanitarian thing we can do.
Let me switch to sanctuary cities because obviously I've seen you, and I must I shouldn't say. This is actually bad for me to say this on camera, but I haven't minded you at all. You know, going at elected officials and law enforcement officials and letting them know that they were going to be accountable if they didn't follow the law didn't bother me at all to see that from you.
But I am wondering what are your future plans for sanctuary cities and do you see a league to sanctuary cities in this country?
I actually do. We're working on some things right now.
I don't want to share it here on this podcast because it's a long enforcement sensus. We're working on some things now, but I can say this, sanctuary cities are sanctuary to criminals, and we're going to home accountable and Pam bonding now that she's the attorney general, she's already filed lawsuits and we're going to continue fining lawsuits because we think knowingly releasing a public safety threat back in
the public is just dumb. There's no reason. Fact when you release a public safety threat back in the public, it puts your officers at great risk because rather than arresting somebody in the safety and security of county jail, now we've got to go to the neighborhood and find them, which is dangerous for the officer, dangerous for the alien because anything can happen on street arrest, and it's certainly dangerous for the community. So we want to make sanctuary cities.
You don't understand, they're hurting themselves because when you don't give us access to the bad guy locked in the jail set, which is safe for everybody. You release them to the community, you're going to get exactly what you don't want, going to put the public greater of crime because many will will will commit another crime. And what you're going force ice in the community and we'll.
Find the bad guy.
But when he when we find them, he's probably with others, others that aren't a criminal threat, but they're in the country legally. Well they're going to go to because we're not going to turn our back on illegal anim once we find it. We're going to let ice do their job and enforced immigration law. So what you get being a sanctuary city is exactly what you don't want, more officers in the community and more collateral rest because we
found them while we're looking for the bad guy. So we want the sanctuary city to do one thing.
Let us end the jail.
Let us talk to the person that you locked in the jail cell because obviously the public safety thread give us to that person. It's safer for everybody. It's the right thing to do. And the and the message from sanctuary cities are is this, which is which is a bunch of crap. Well, we're a sanctuary city, We're welcome in jurisdiction because we want illegal aliens to feel safe and they want to report crimes or the victim of crime to come to us for help without the fear
of working with ice. That is just that is soul false because number one, we don't want to talk to victim witness. We want to talk to the guy you locked in the jail cell. And if you go talk to the victim and witness and ask them do you want the bad guy released back in your neighborhood, the victim and witness don't want them back either. So let us get access to the person locked in that tax payer funt of jail to help drive crime down the neighborhood and make it safe for officers and alien in
the community. It just makes sense to me as a career cop. I don't understand why any elective official whose number one responsibility is protecting their community, why would you not work with us to remove a child rapist from the community rather than release them back in the community.
I got about three more questions with you, because I know your time is precious and I really appreciate you giving me this time. Prior to the election, you pledged to conduct the largest deportation in American history. That is more than eleven million undocumented immigrants living in the United States. Where do we stand today in terms of identifying those individuals and deporting them out of the country.
Great question, because I read a media story this morn We're deporting less people than Joe Biden. Yeah, because Joe Biden had millions of people coming across border every year and a lot Borgatoes are removing a lot of them, So you can't compare. The ministration isn't how many removed. It's our number one, how many did you release into the country legally? And Biden administration is in the millions. And the more important question is how many interior arrests?
People in the interior countries do you arrest? If you look at those numbers, we're about three times hired and Joe Biden was during the same time period, we got about thirty six thousand rest so far vast majority of criminals. Because President Trumps promised American people on this mass deportation operation the worst first, the criminals first, because they're the biggest danger of communities. National security threats polled, the safety threats.
That's when we're concentrating on them, but that aperture will open to the one point four men that had to process a great tax payer expense were order removed, but instead of leaving, they became excusitive. That aperture opened up. So you will see the rest increased in the very near future. But the problem is sanctuary cities. Sanctuary cities
are making us less efficient. Well, rather than one agent arrest in one bad guy into jail, now we've got to send the whole team into the neighborhood for officeral safety reasons to find somebody that want to be found. So that's that that's slowing us up. But what we'll do, we'll double demandforce those sanctuary cities, We'll double the teams. We're not gonna be stopped, and we'll overcome all the roadblocks are putting in. But we're gonna get it done.
But you're talking about a Guatanamo Bay, for example, there's tens of thousands of available space, but there are millions of immigrants in this country illegally. So I'm saying, if you're successful from a deportation standpoint in terms of locating who those individuals are, there's only but so much room in Guantanamo Bay.
Where else are they gonna go? What are you gonna do with them?
Another great question I've been I've been on media for the last two weeks. Congris needs to fund this operation. We need money because you're right, every illegal we arrest, we need a bed for our bets almost.
Pulled right now.
So we need money so so we can do what the American people have voted for. The number one issue was illegal immigration, removing criminals. So Congress needs to come and give us some funding to do this. We need to buy more beds. We needed to have more out of country of planes. We need more contracts. To have more contracts. People come in and do the work that doesn't require law enforce, not law enforces currently doing. So you're exactly right. Congress needs to come through. I'm hoping
they sign a bill today or hopefully tonight. We need to build right now, but we need reconciliation. We need money to be successful because if we more money we have, the more successful we're going to be.
I got admit, mister, that should be the easiest part of your job. I mean, the president has all three branches of government in this favor. I mean the GOP has at the White house to send it the house. I mean, it shouldn't be difficult at this particular moment in time for them to give you what you want, since they assigned you to do this job. But I want to transition real quick to undocumented workers. So a lot of people argue, you know, they've had a massive
economic benefit. They've been a massive economic benefit to this country. They pay taxes, are important to the workforce, are less violent than some naturalized citizens.
That's the thing.
That you keep hearing people say, what role does that play in your thinking when it comes to issues of deportation.
Look, if you're in the country legally, you got a problem. It's not okay to be here legally.
But as you know, we're prioritizing worse of the words fuses. And here's here's the issue. I'll use you one example, and this is a true example. I had a new roof put on my house two years ago. I had to call six companies before I got a company that guaranteed me in legal workforce. And one person that showed up was a father and son. Father and son used to have twenty United States citizen employees, but him and his son came by and see kind of just repaired
to roof. Do we need to replace your rough because him and the son can't replace whole rough. Here's the story. He told me he had to fire twenty USSAIS employees because he was competing against all these companies had illegal aliens paying them, you know, seven bucks an hour again on the rough. Well, here's playing us system twenty bucks again out of rough. People need to understand that no one hires an illegal alien on the goodness or heart, so Hartman can pay him less, work them further, work
them harder, and undercut their competition as US citisen employees. Now, I will say this, if we need we need that type of staff to become this country and work, then it's up to Congress to make the changes. But we can't condone hiding your legal innest because that's what drives everything else. When you overwhelm the boardertrow with what people call innocent immigration, just people coming here for better life,
people com up for a job. But what they need to understand there's an ugly underbelly of that because you when you overwhelm the borderrature you type border throw up what they call innocent immigration. It overwhelms the border to which meetures less agents on the border to the rest people smuggling fatanyl. There's less people agents on the board
to stop the sex trafficking. What happened Joe Biden. Joe Biden calls such a huge surge and Aligo mcgras seventy percent of agents were pulled off the line to deal with humanitarian christ and deal with what so called innocent illegal migration. And when they did that, what happened steve six hundred percent increase in sex trafficking. We have quarter Americans dead from fatanyl. We got a record number of people on terras washers scrouss the border. So there's we
gotta do this legally. There are millions of people standing in line right now, taking their tests, paying their fees, doing the background investigation, come to the country the right way. They're sitting in the back seat because CIS is overwhelmed with frauds and assiglument claims. So I get it. If we need a workforce, need more workforces in the country,
then create a legal program. They can come with a visa so they don't have to pay a Krimla cartel, they don't have to give their whole life savings to put themselves at risk for krimla cartel and swim across.
River and drown.
So the Congress needs to do some work. But we can't condone illegal migration. We can't condone go ahead and enter the country leading and we're not going to be looking for it. We got to send a message of the whole world. There's a there's a set of rules. There's a right way and the wrong way to come to the greatest nation on the earth. There's two things. The right way, well, I got I gotta look at legislative branch Congress to do that.
But the meantime, we can't okay.
Illegal migration because it's going to result more people dying, more women being raid, more cartels, you know, making more money to come to the bloodless country with poisonous vent mom.
Very last question to you, sir, I give you the floor. You want America to know what about Ice right now today and moving forward.
I'm sick and tired of reading stories. The ICE is going to raide your school, They're going to raide your churches. They're doing neighborhood swites. People need to understand everybody the ICE arrests. It's based on a targeting enforcement operation, which means they know who they're going to rest, they have a pretty good idea where they're going. They have to drop an operational plan. So it's not neighborhood sweees. We're not going through neighborhood looking for people different than us.
And when we got way the sense of location policy, we ended it. Why because we have to go to a high school arrest of MS thirteen member we know there right now, he's a public safety tread. We need to go in that high school along with the local authorities and arrest that public safety tread. Doesn't mean we're
going to raide the school. I mean we're going to arrest the bad guy that's in the high school, the same as every other federal law enforces see at law enforcement A and S, state law enforce, a ced local they they all do it, and I should not have a different.
Set of rules.
We'll go in to schools the rest of public safety threat significant public safety threat.
Churches we'll never rate at church.
But if we know this is the national security that we know is in a church right now that we're looking for, and we know he's sitting there right now, we're going to arrest that person. Doesn't mean we're rating school. It doesn't mean we're rating church. And we're not raiding hospitals, which I saw. I see the lost left media saying it they're scaring the immigrant community. I want people to go to school. We want people to go see their doctor and go to the hospital.
Go to church.
We got to straighten that narrative about it's a left that are putting fear in immigrant community. We are basing our operators right now, the worst of the worst criminals. So go to church, go get your medical care, send your children to school. We're not raiding those places that We're doing the same thing every every law enforcement agency does. It's not sweeps, partner enforcement operation, a lot of planning. We do this carefully. The agents are very very professional.
So I just wish the left would just state the truth and what we're exactly doing.
Look at that data.
As I just said, thirty six thousand arrest, vast majority of criminals will be doing exactly what President Trump said we would do and what I said we would do. We're patrying worset worse.
First, there's no left to right here.
I'm saying, I care about the damn truth, and as far as I'm concerned, I want you to know, first of all, you're welcome back on the show anytime. I would love to have you back on to getting more intensive conversations about this, even more so than we just did over this last twenty plus minutes. I thank you for your time, and please feel free anytime you've got something to say and you want to come back and you want to have a conversation, please know that you're welcome to come back on the show.
So I really appreciate it.
Thank you very much, Thank you, sir. I appreciate you all right.
One and only Tom Holman aka the Borders are he oversees the southern border, the northern border all my time. And of course aviation security is Tom Homer right here on the Stephen A.
Smith Show. Really really happy that he came on, yeh