Welcome to the special edition of the Step and A Smith Show. I call it a special edition because of who I am about to talk to. I am honored to have my next guest. He is the forty eighth Governor of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. And obviously we know he's sitting here with me in New Orleans because the Philadelphia Eagles played in the Super Bowl. I'm talking about the Pennsylvania government himself. Mister jos Shapiro, how are you, sir, House.
Everything great to be with you, Steve.
I couldn't wait to talk to you because there's so many things to talk to you about outside of sports. We talked about our sports the other day, and now here we go. We're gonna get in your wheelhouse right now. And you've seen the president, forty seventh President of the United States, Donald Trump, handing down an abundance of executive orders and it's something that we can get into in a little while. But the first order of business is his position that essentially the US wants to take over
the Gaza. Yeah, what was your reaction when you heard that? And when you saw him standing next to Benjamin Netan, Yahoo, the Prime Minister of Israel whistling.
So I thought it was an unserious proposal. I thought it was a proposal that, if he actually carried it out the way he said he was, violates international law. I thought it was deeply disrespectful to the Palestinian people. I think it doesn't take into account Jordan and Egypt and how they're gonna feel about it. I thought it was wrong. Look, I want these hostilities to and I want all these hostages home. I'm someone who believes that
there should be a two state solution. I want the Palestinians to have a state that they can call their own. I want them to live peacefully, side by side with Israel. I think what Donald Trump did was make that harder. And again I thought it was really un serious and unhelpful. At this time, you still got about one hundred ish hostages that aren't home. Why would you do anything to upset that process?
Now?
Why would you do anything like that that's going to make it harder for those loved ones to be able to wrap their arms around those hostages get them back from Hamas's Hamas's control. So I didn't think it was serious. Look, I get this guy. He likes to make a lot of noise. He likes to put a lot of stuff out there, throw a bunch of stuff up against the wall and see what sticks. And I'm sure we're going to talk more about that. I just thought this was both unserious and unhelpful at this time.
With that being said, how did you feel again about prime in Benjamin that Yahoo's response, which was pretty much nothing. I mean, he looked at it, looked like he had glee on his face. He certainly didn't see alarm, seem alarmed or disturbed by what the president was saying. And what do you make of that?
I think Natanya, who's playing a short term game, he's not thinking about the long term interests of Israel's playing a short term game to keep himself out of legal jeopardy, to keep himself self and power with this really difficult coalition that he needs to be able to stay into power.
I think if you're taking a long term, sober look at Israel's safety and security, you need to figure out a way for the Palestinians to look drive hamas out, drive terrorism out, of course, but have a stable home where they can focus on their economic goals, their educational goals, their other goals as a nation, and that is going to create more peace and stability in the region. And I don't think that's out who thinks about that at all. He's just trying to look at his short term interest.
Why do you believe he doesn't think about that at all? I would surmise it's just a guess because I certainly don't know as much as you, But I would surmise that one of the reasons he may have short term thinking is because when we think about what Hamas did last October seventh, and how they ravaged to Israel and kidnapped and murdered people, what have absolutely awful excuse for it?
That was on Benjamin Yaho's watch, correct, And I imagine there are a plethora of people in Israel that are not very fond of him in the job he has done because they point the finger at him for that. Could that explain your assertions about his short term.
That's why I'm saying short term the moment this war is over, which look, God willing, this war is gonna be over tomorrow. We want all these hostages home, we want the violence to end. There's gonna be a whole lot of questions about why didn't he know on October seventh, or what did he know and what did he ignore? His trial for corruption charges gets back going, He's going to have to answer to the sixty two ish sixty fourist whatever he's got now members of his coalition as
to what the best path forward is. As long as there is continued fighting, as long as there is continued what I would describe as chaos within his ranks, he's able to be protected. That is maybe in the interest of Benjamin Natanyahu in the short term, it is not the interests of Israel in the long term. I've said for a long time stephen A, I don't think Natanya who's got the best interests of Israel long term. Now I'm sitting in the backseat. I'm not in Israel. I'm
not a voter in Israel. I'm not an Israeli citizen. I don't get a say in this. I'm answering your question as someone who's looked at this issue. I think long term, you want to create an environment. We're twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen year old Palestinian kids are growing up not with animosity toward Israel, but with hope for a brighter future for themselves, same thing for Israeli kids. If you're able to do that, you're able to create stability in the region in the long run.
I'm questioning this possibility when you talk about the displacement of one point five million Palestinians.
Am I talking about Trump's That's what I mean.
I'm in Trump. I mean Trump, That's what I'm talking about. When you're talking about when he's talking about it along those lines, and you don't hear emphatic resistance to that emanating from Israel, Yeah, then they're going to be viewed as being complicit, which to me is additional reasons for the forther the vitriol to continue moving forward. I don't see how peace comes from that. No, I don't.
I don't see how peace comes from it. I don't see how it's lawful what President Trump has put forth, and again I don't think it's in the interests of Israel long term.
With that being said, where do you go from here? As the governor of Pennsylvania, as somebody who's been seen who's been seen as being pro Israel as well you should and has been criticized for that, particularly leading up to the election. I'm wondering how you feel right now about your stance where you stand, knowing the criticism that you have received from being pro Israel, and now you're taking the position I stand.
I stand where I stand, and I don't get too highs from the too high from the love or too low from the hate. I think with any of these issues. And I'll remind Steven that I'm a governor of Pennsylvania. I'm not the Secretary of State. That's right, But I got opinions on things, and I'm happy to share them with you. I think you've got to study issues, think you've got to be open to opinions that aren't your own and bring them in as you're thinking through stuff.
And then ultimately you've got to make the decision that in my day job is in the best interests of Pennsylvanians and the best interest in the future of Pennsylvania. And you've got to stick to that regardless of the love you get or the hate you get on it. So I'm mindful that there are some people out there
that attack me. Let's be real for being a proud American Jew and someone who's open about celebrating my faith and open about how my wife and I are choosing to raise our kids and proud of who we are. I get that that brings attacks from others, but that doesn't force me to change the way I think about
stuff or change where I've usedt toff. What I do leave myself open to are people who bring a different perspective, who are able to educate me on something I don't know about, and I'm willing to open up my mind to those things and evolve in my positions. Your positions, when you change your position, I think it's really important, especially when you're a job like mine, to be really
honest with the people you serve about. Why give you an example of that, moving from Middle East to something else. I ran twice successfully for Attorney General of Pennsylvania. Both times I ran in support of the death penalty. Honestly held view based on research, based on the experiences that I had as an elected official and then serving as Attorney General. Case by case by case would come across my desk, and I could never sign off on capital punishment.
Something was bothering me about that. I spent a lot of time thinking about it, spent a lot of time looking at it. More then my ten year old kick came over me one day and said that we don't do the death penalty in Pennsylvania, do we? And I couldn't look my kid in the eye and explain to him why we have the death penalty and why it's important. Now, I realized there's some folks out there who feel strongly
on both sides of this. But after I thought about my kids question, I thought about my experience as Attorney General. I changed my mind on it, and I stood up in West Philadelphia give a long speech to folks explaining why I had. I know there's some people that didn't like that I changed my view on that, but I know they walked away going, you know what that guy actually thought about it. He explained to me why he
is the way he is on that. I share that example with you because I'm not going to be bullied into changing my position one way or the other based on the noise that comes from people attacking me about being Jewish or attacking me about my support of Israel. But I am going to always be open to different perspective, different ideas, different thoughts, and communicate with the public, with my constituents in Pennsylvania as to why or how I've evolved on an issue.
If not better, do you think that makes you distinctively different from the President of the United States from the Republican Party as we speak, considering how dogged they may be in their positions and how they don't necessarily change, at least publicly. Here's what I say.
I don't know how the president makes decisions or thinks about issues. And I'm not trying to be a jerk senter. I really don't. I don't have an insight into how he thinks through an issue and arrives at a conclusion. I differ from him on a lot of his confusion conclusions. I don't know the process. The folks that I have a problem with are the enablers who know better, These members of Congress who have basically given up their constitutional responsibilities.
The Republican elected leaders who will come to me and whisper in my ear. Can you believe he said that I don't agree with that? Whatever? And then you see these guys out at the press conference the next day. Oh, Donald Trump's the best. I agree with them on this. I agree with them on that. Those are the folks I have a problem with, and how they go through those mental gymnastics and sleep at night.
See I view them. If I may make a statement here, I view them your show. You get to make that unstable people. People use derogatory terms, gutless or whatever, and I say, okay, But to me, they are scared to death because this is a man that has proven he will get you out of office. And if you're addicted to power and influence and it comes from sitting in one of those seats in the House of Congress, you're gonna do everything you can to hold on to what
you have. And that's why they capitulate. Look at Ted Cruz, he talked about his wife. Look at MARKA. Rubio. I am aligned Marco Ruby and that's the Secretary of State.
I mean, look at some of this stuff. Profoundly weak people. Let me tell you something. You insult my wife, we're not gonna be on the same team. And I just I find these folks to be ridiculous. First off, they've got a constitutional responsibility that the citizens of their states or their districts gave them. It's part of the whole checks and balances. We teach our kids this in elementary school. The fact is they have given up on that, And this isn't about issue A or B. Right, we can
debate these issues whether we agree disagree. The fact is that they have a responsibility to play And it's not just saying, yeah, mister President, whatever you want. They have a constitutional responsibility to do their jobs and they're not. Those are the folks that bother me the most in our policy.
What about the notion that people would look at Democrats and when we talk about, you know, the Republicans not having much spine, what about on the Democratic side where it got to a point, at least in my estimation as just a conscientious observer, it got to a point where people were scared of their own shadows because of the cancel culture that existed. And a lot of people, obviously for believe that the Democratic Party provoked that mind
that level of thinking. What about that? What about people who look at the Democratic Party and some of the members of this.
Fair criticism, yes, and it's criticism that I love it against folks in our party for years, not trying to personalize it about candidate A or or B. But yeah, I think we started walking around on eggshells. I think it is important to treat people with respect I think it's important to respect people for who they are. I think it's important to not bully other people in our society.
But you can't go to such an extreme that you end up talking past folks and you end up not actually being able to listen to people and the feelings they have, the emotions they have, the desires they have, because you feel like you have to follow a certain set of rules or practices otherwise you don't get to be in the room. And I think that's been a problem for a lot of years. I don't do my politics that way. I don't govern that way, and I would argue I govern the toughest, most swingiest date in
the entire country. And I'm proud of what we've been able to do there to bring people together and to not bully others, but to also not get ourselves so caught up in an extreme that we're not able to have an honest conversation with people.
Do you believe that's what lost the election for Kamala Harris were just what we just finished talking about, the general consensus about the thinking associated with the Democratic Party.
Conduct your question, But I'm going to say I'm not a pundit here and I get that. You know, like in sports, you know, you lose a game on Sunday, you got to spend time on Monday trying to figure out what happens. So when you start practicing Tuesday for the next game next weekend, you're better, right. And I get that there's gonna be folks doing that analysis. And I think that that is a fair question you are asking. That can be part of the analysis. But I think
that this has been years in the making. I've seen it in rural communities in Pennsylvania where, by the way, I did quite well as a Democrat running in those areas where Democrats stops showing up, stop treating our farmers with respect. By the way, our farmers maybe do the most noble work in society. They feed our neighbors. Right, National Democratic Party for a lot of years started defining
success is having a college degree. Let me tell you something to you, Nay, sixty two percent of Pennsylvania adults don't have a college degree. So if you're one of those sixty two percent, you looked at the Democratic Party, this is years and years and years in the making, and your being total success is defined by something you don't have. Well, all of a sudden, you're gonna start to say, are those folks really for me? I've tried
to govern differently. Held my first day in office, I signed an executive order doing away with the college degree requirement to work in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. Well sixty percent of the people I've hired in Pennsylvania don't have a college degree. We're better for respecting people from all different walks of life. I think our party for a lot of years started getting away from that. Now the answer. Part of it is that Monday morning analysis you got
to do after you lose again lose an election. That's fair, But part of it is I think folks are looking too much to Washington and not enough to what's been happening in the States over many years. I think there's a number of governors who are doing thoughtful things that matter in people's lives. My job is in to just give speeches and make a lot of noise. My job as a governor is to put points on the board every day for our school kids, for our farmers, for
our cops, for our firefighters, for everybody. And I try and do that in a way that lifts everybody up. Doesn't shut people out, doesn't do it with an attitude of elitism or extremism, and it's working in Pennsylvania.
But think about it. If I remember correctly doing my research, I was reading up about how Republican led effort for millions of millions of dollars in school vouchers or something that you supported, if I remember correctly, and you got criticized for that by your own party. Yep. I mean, so I'm looking at it from that stample. I'm saying, wait a minute here, at some point in time, do you pause. I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about them,
other members of your party that is. And I'm saying, look at what this man is doing in the state of Pennsylvania. Look at the reputation that he has, Look at how popular he has. You guys have said he hasn't really had any competition. Well, I'm from the Jordan era. Yeah, it wasn't a lot of petition because he made it look like it wasn't. It wasn't competitive because he annihilated all the time. It's Jordan, it's not Lebron. It's not Lebron. But we'll talk about that another day. My point is
to use that analogy towards you. You would think that knowing all of this, seeing your record, seeing a state like Pennsylvania, knowing how rabid the base is, not just as fans of the sports team, but even their politicians, that knowing that you had such popularity in that state, it would be a no brainer, considering the importance of the state of Pennsylvania, that Kamala Harris would have chosen you as a vice presidential nominee. But that did not happen, sir, Yeah.
And look, Steven, I said all along, Kamala Harris had a deeply personal decision to make who she wanted to run with, who she wanted to govern the country with. Uh In the end of the day, I had a personal decision to make too, okay, And I love being governor. I love being able to chart my own course. I love being able to meet a pencilnion on their farm on the streets of Philadelphia, hear their problem, and actually
do something about it, get shit done for them. I always want to be in a job where I can make real change, make decisions and make things happen. And I love being governor in Pennsylvania.
So is that your way of saying that it was a job that you didn't want because you wanted to be governor.
It's my way of telling you how much I love being governor, and also respecting the fact that she had a decision to make she made it. I think Tim Wallas is a good guy. I wish they would have won. I can't pay my heart out for them. I worked hard to make sure to do my best to help make sure they want and they came up short.
Well, let me be more direct, sir, if she had offered you the vice presidential position, would you have accepted.
I think I think it is not worth going back and kind of Monday morning quarterback and later going into hypotheticals. I also want to be respectful of the vice president not get into our private conversations as well. I can tell tell you that I love my work. I love
being able to do my work on my terms. I love being able to do my work and still be a father to our four kids and a husband of my loved my life since the ninth grade, and the best way for me to serve the public to be able to meet the obligations I've learned about from the way my parents taught me in the way my faith teaches me, it should be governor in Pennsylvania right now, All.
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five dollar lineup Prize Picks. Yo, run your game. We started off this conversation by talking about Israeli Palestinian conflict that obviously had transpired at the time she needed to make a decision. Speculation was that there were some folks who didn't know whether you would be the right guy because you were Jewish, because you were pro Israel, etc. This is the year twenty twenty five. Yeah, and yet we're weeks removed from that still being mentioned as a concern.
What does that say to you about the state of America right now, that that is still a concern in some people.
You know, I heard a little bit of that noise. I know there's a lot of noise online about that. I don't going to pay much attention to that, but I got to tell you, man, when I travel across Pennsylvania, and I think we can agree the ultimate swing state. If you want to be president of the United states. You're Donald Trump, comme Myers, you gotta win Pennsylvania. I got to tell you, I go across the state and folks open up to me about their faith because I'm
a person of faith. I find that it allows me to have a greater connection with my constituents, with my fellow Pennsylvanians. I find that it is a value add not a divisive thing. Remember, I'm literally someone who has followed in a line of leaders of Pennsylvania. I followed William Pennon, a guy who created the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania as a place that would be warm and welcoming for all people of all faiths. I'm not sure pen ever imagined there'd be a Jewish governor, right, But I think
that's a spirit that we have always had. That or a place that's tolerant or a place that's welcoming. And so yeah, I know there's a lot of noise that was surrounding that, you know, in our national and politics, But my experience when you're actually out talking to folks, when you're out engaging with them, is folks are really
good and honorable and decent. They may not worship the way you do, but they appreciate that you're a person of faith, that you're grounded in something, and it gives them something to connect with you on is it.
Fit to say that the Jewish community shares exactly what you just expressed, Because we've been hearing a lot about anti Semitism, and one of the things that I point to is that I'm not Jewish. I can't stand when people who are not black try to tell Black people about what they've experienced. It gets on my last nerves because you don't know. But I will tell you, as a black individual, I'm not Jewish. You would know better than me when we hear anti semitism? How real is
that issue? In this day and age?
Anti Semitism is on the rise. Okay, that is an empirical fact. I still think the vast, vast, vast, vast vast majority of people are good and decent and respectful, but it is true that it is on the rise.
I think that there are a number of reasons for that, but one that I think has been driving a lot of this is the fact that two oftentimes we don't have leaders speaking in acting with moral clarity, giving certain folks who respewing anti semitism or other forms of bigotry a pass or actually allowing their words to be misappropriated by someone who's hateful to use that as a tool
to attack others. I think we see that from the President of the United States at times, and it's dangerous, and so I think that is something that we have to guard against, and every leader has that responsibility speak and act moral clarity. I try to do that, and I think if more leaders did that, you'd see the incidents of anti semitism, racism, hatred, bigotry and all forms begin to be reduced in our society. It's never gonna get rid of it, but it's going to be reduced.
I just can't stress enough, though, Steven. As I get around, as I talk to people, as i'm in their communities, most people are really good and decent and honorable folks. They'll stand up to someone who's b someone in their community or online completely and that gives me hope, That gives me a sense of optimism. I'm not sure our politics are keeping up with where the community is right now, but it is something that I think gets lost a
lot of times in our media or online. I'm not someone who bashes the media but I think sometimes that storyline gets missed.
Could politics be what's bringing our society down?
In parties?
On what the part it is?
Because I think leaders have a responsibility speaking act of moral clarity, and too many of them don't.
Right now, what do you say, because we know some of the rhetoric the president is used, as you alluded to and what have you, And obviously that's problematic at times, no doubt. But there's another side too. Just the other day we saw Democrats really pushing back on Doge's apartment, you know, Elon Musk and his it. You don't get me started with that and the verb, the language they use. Some would say that kind of rhetoric is exactly what
we don't need either. How are you any better as a party than what you're describing the other side to be? There are folks who look at Democrats and they say that, now.
Yeah, and look, I didn't see this specific thing you're talking about, but I'm not gonna duck what you're saying, because I think you make an important point. In general, I think you do have too much of this rhetoric in both parties that is divisive, that is too white hot, that is just making it harder to find common ground.
I get the theatrics of politics, right, I get that there are some folks out there in Pennsylvania who, Yeah, they got to like sort of show that they're fighting with me to their constituents so they can score some political points. But you know what, you got to get your ass around the table and also make some progress and work on things together. And so I was trying keep that in mind with my rhetoric and as I
deal with others across the island Pennsylvania. I think we've got to learn from the way we try and do business in our commonwealth. At the national level, I don't think that kind of rhetoric, no matter what parties engaged in it is helpful, and it further divides us, and it breeds more cynicism in our society. And when you've got a public that gets cynical, a few things happen. Number One, you kind of lurch back and forth in politics. Well, I'm pissed at these guys, I'm voting for these guys.
How many times have we seen that over the last twenty years? Stephen A right, Democratic wave, Republican wave. I think a lot of that is because people are angry and they're cynicism, and so they're going back and forth, and it makes it harder to actually get stuff done that matters to people. Do you tell this to your own party?
I mean, when people think about the squad, or they think about the progressives on the extreme, look the mag is on the right, you could say what you got to say to them, because you're absolutely right. But on the left as well, do you say this stuff to your own party?
You know, I don't know that it's my job to lecture other Democrats. I think what my job is is to be a hell of a good governor. In Pennsylvania. The shows you can get elected with not just Democratic votes, but Republican independent votes as well. I'll tell you I got more votes anybody ever in the history of Pennsylvania running for government. I'm not saying it's about myself on
the back. I'm saying that because, as a empirical fact, the only way you get the numbers I got is by having Republicans and independents vote for you along with Democrats. I'm governing in a way where our ratings show Republicans independence still support the work I'm doing. I think the best thing I can do is not lecture people in my party or the other party, but show that you can do common sense things well, can bring people together and you can get stuff done.
What govern that come to you for advice? Because I mean, you're winning, you're doing your job, so you would think that if you you you've got a formula that can be emulated. I mean, listen, I'm a thief. I steal successful habits all the time. I see a successful habit, I'm stealing it. Okay, I'm gonna massive it, I'm gonna learn. I'm gonna do what I have to do because I want to win. Sure, what about folks in you but they don't they don't reach out to you. They do.
I'm just saying, I'm happy to have those conversations with a candidate running for office, with party committees and groups and what have you, and I do. But I don't think sort of engaging in uh, you know, a public beating of people in my party or the other. I don't think that's particularly helpful. I think the best thing I can do is lead by example in the commonwth and That's what I'm trying to do every day.
Let's get back to Trump in this regard these executive orders that he's been handed out like skittles, some crying. I mean, it's something special, It's it's unbelievable. I mean, he's got a fresh shop.
Most of them aren't worth the paper they're written on.
But I'm wondering what your thoughts have been about the executive orders A. And is there one is that, anyone particular that alarms you more than the others.
Yeah. I think the one that alarms me the most is the one that actually, of all the things he signed, is the only one that's absolute, and that is when he pardoned people who assaulted cops on January six, When he granted clemency to people that assaulted cops on January six, I think that shows an utter lack of respect for law enforcement. Listen, I'm someone who for years has respected law enforcement. We invest in law enforcement in Pennsylvania. I
have their backs. They screw up, they're gonna be held accountable, but I got their backs. I understand how central safety is and law and order is. Proper law and order that respects people's constitutional rights is for a civilized society. And the fact that on his first day using the power of that sharpie pen gave those folks a pardon, says a lot about his values and something I really strongly disagree with.
Now, just to be clear, do you believe are you of that position for anybody who stormed the capitol that day or just those who engage that there are those on the right that say some of them were lawless, not all. Do you differentiate?
No, of course you have to differentiate between someone who was assaulting a cop versus someone who wasn't. Of course there's a difference. But look, stephen A. I mean, these folks were prosecuted, a jury of their peers heard the evidence and convicted them. I'm not going to stand here right now and say this sentence was too weak, this sentence was too strong.
Whatever.
You asked me a question, I'm answering it directly. You asked me what you know, what is it about? You know the things that he signed that you know, what do you think of that? I thought that was the most disturbing thing. And you know, in a civilized society, you've got to have rule of law being respected by all people. You've got to make sure that people's constitutional
rights were protected in the process. And I just thought using the stroke of that pen to do that on the first day sent a really poor.
Message Department of Government efficiency. It was created, it was not something that was in existence before Trump got there, your thoughts about its existence, and a non elected official like Elona Musk, yeah running it. Well.
Look, I'll just tell you in Pennsylvania, I've worked my tail off to cut costs put money back in people's pockets. I've cut taxes five six times. I've proposed in my most recent budget to cut taxes even more. We're trying to make childcare more affordable, help seniors stay in their homes, help our small businesses. We're trying to bring down the car lost of goods and services to put money back
in people's pockets. And one of the ways we are doing that and also still being able to invest in our schools, in public safety, and economic development is by eliminating wasteful spending in Pennsylvania. So I'm all for eliminating wasteful spending. And I'm glad they've got a crew that's looking at that now. I mean, I kind of have to left. This goes back to the beginning of our conversation about members of Congress. I mean, this money doesn't
just go out will and nilly. The way it happens is members of Congress vote for these appropriations bills and a president signs it into law. So those members decided, hey, they want a million dollars going to the Stephen A. Smith's Society or whatever, and then to not actually spend that money and have the members of Congress that supported it not stand up and say, wait a minute, we got some constitutional responsibility here. We sent the money out. That to me is a little crazy. So yeah, I
think we should be cutting back on wasteful spending. I think you got to go through a legal process to do that. I am glad the Trump administration is looking at it. I think wasting too much money for too long, And it's not dissimilar to the kind of work we're doing in Pennsylvania to cut costs.
Your thoughts about his position on diversity, equity and inclusion DEI being completely eradicated and eliminated, your thoughts, You know.
You reference before all the eos he signed, executive orders he signed, and a whole bunch of them have to do with so called deis. It seems to me that they're using that as an excuse for everything from the horrific plane crash in Washington, DC to the fact that they do not have a plan to do the one thing that people really wanted Donald Trump to do, which
is to cut costs in our communities. I haven't seen any eos about making eggs any cheapness, stephen A. I don't know of milk or gas or any of these other things, so I'd like to see him focusing on that when it comes to this issue of DEI. You didn't kind of ask me this directly, but I do
want you to know where I'm on this. I mentioned William Penn before, yes, and I take very seriously my responsibility as a governor that we have a place that is warm and welcoming for all, that respects all people, no matter what you look like, where you come from, who you love, who you pray to, that doesn't pit one group against the other, and that respects people for who they are and doesn't make people feel guilty for who they are. I have never thought that DEI should be
vested with one employee or one office. I think it is a mindset of respect for all of acknowledging our shared history and making sure that opportunity is available for all Pennsylvanians in my case, or for all Americans. What I don't like about what the President's doing is he uses these sharply signed executive orders to bully other people.
And I think that's bullshit. If you're a president, you're a governor, you're a mayor, you're a leader of a community, you've got a responsibility to lift everybody up, not talk certain people now, not pit one person against the other. That makes everybody's life less safe, and it's bad.
For our society. Let me share my position with you about DII real quick to see if you agree what I've said publicly. DEI. What I don't like about what I've seen the right doing since Trump has gotten into office and signed these ohs is that you're making the claim that anybody associated with DEI was unqualified incompetent. And
I said, first of all, that's wrong. But secondly, and most importantly, as was as was the case with the Rooney Rule in the National Football League, as was the case with affirmative action, we're just going to ignore why it was put in a place to begin with. We're going to ignore the origin of its existence. It existed because it was unfair unfairness and inequities that were being practiced, and it needed to be addressed. That's why the programs
came in play to begin with. So it seems like we have a segment of our society wants to ignore the reality of.
So I'm talking about our shared history. We have to understand that, and you've got to be building a society where everybody's got opportunity, not where you're pitting one against the other, but where everybody's got opportunity. That's what I'm trying to do in Pennsylvania, and also trying to make clear that you know, when a black owned business does well in my commonwealth, it doesn't mean that that small business next door owned by someone who looks like me
has to do worse off. This is not a zero as some game. We can lift everybody up. One of the things I'm most proud of is the work we're doing to bring a high quality education every zip code in Pennsylvania. Right we got to make sure that a child that looks like me as a shot and a child that looks like you has a shot, and we shouldn't be pitting those kids against one another either. In the way we teach them or in the way we fund their schools.
Immigration, I have to confess to you, I'm liberal in my thinking. I'm a fiscal conservative and a social liberal. I've always been that way, even though I mostly vote Democrat. Here's the deal. I'm looking at his position and closing the borders, and I must say I could not disagree with him because of Biden. President Joe Biden opening the borders when he took office, and I took it to consideration.
Barack Obama, Barack Obama was once joked about, I shouldn't say joke, but he was one the border and the porter in chief, so he certainly practiced it. He campaigned on it, he let it be known. He said, well, he had to say. They went out and did it. But he didn't stick out his chest and brag about it. He just did the job. I'm looking at Biden and you come into office, you know, after he departs four years. After he departs, Trump has his administration for four years.
Then you come into office, and to me, you went against what Obama was doing and you opened the borders, and that's what caused a lot of this. Right now, to that.
You say what I would say, you have your facts right, and that's important because a lot of the conversation about immigration has been devoid of facts. You go, look, Barack Obama is deporting way more people than Donald Trump.
Yes he did.
I think it's also true to say that there was a border challenge during the Biden administration. I have for years and years and years said the same thing. We need a secure border. Must make sure our border is secured. Some places it requires offense, some places it requires technology, some place that requires personnel, you name it. But you've got to have a secure border, and you've got to have clear rules of the road to enter this country.
Someone who wants to come to America, I want you to come here, follow the rules, and I want you to make this country even better by bringing your talents, by bringing your heart, your passion, your drive to this
great nation. Follow the rules. I also think, because we have had these challenges for so many years, you've got to acknowledge the more than ten million people who were here who came here illegally and have a path for them going forward, whether that path is deporting them because they've violated the law here, or that path is saying you've been here long enough, you're part of our society, you're working here, your kids go to school here, you
name it, Yona house, whatever, We're going to make sure that there is now a pathway for you for citizenship. Think that's common sense. I think that's where most people are. I think what Donald Trump has been doing in his early days is actually, by the way, not meeting the numbers that Obama had. But he's doing a lot of pr around it. He's scaring the shit out of a
lot of communities. He's pitting people against one another. I got no problem if you want to deport someone who broke the law while they're here, who harmed someone while they're here, you name it. But I do think you've got to have a comprehensive immigration solution, something I've been calling for for years.
Hi, I'm sorry neither side is pulled off.
And by the way, I think you also have to have a comprehensive immigration solution that acknowledges the workforce issues we have in this country, that actually listens to what farmers need in their communities, listens to what states need, listens to the way immigration immigrants have enhanced our economy in many ways, and I think you have to have that kind of honest conversation. Lawmakers have to come together
and finally pass comprehensive immigration reform. We were on the one yard line about a year ago when Donald Trump said to the members of Congress, back out because he wants to use as we want to use. The issue goes back to the point I was making before. You got a whole bunch of Republican lawmakers who seemingly are swearing an oath to Donald Trump and not the Constitution every day. That's dangerous for our society. We do need
comprehensive immigration reform. We need a secure border, and we need a pathway for those who were here.
Today, Around ten thousand employees of the USA the Agency for International Development are expected to be fired, furloughed, or put on Leave your thoughts about his position.
With that, you know, I don't know. I'm not talking your question, but I don't know enough of the specifics of what's going on there. But I do know this. Members of Congress voted for a bill that funded all these operations USAID. It was signed by the President of the United States. It is lawful. Whatever Donald Trump chooses to do it us ai D. It needs to be lawful. He can't just do this unilaterally given the laws that
are in place going forward. If he wants to propose a new law, it does away with USAID or curtails its operations. That certainly is progative. He won the election, he gets to put his mark on things, but he's not a king. He doesn't get to just sign an executive order and say this is the way it's going to be. When there is a law in place. His executive order doesn't get to trump.
He is the closest thing to a king. I certainly don't look at him that way, but he is the closest thing to a king. When you consider the Republicans and how they at his beck and call right now in the House, in the Senate, etc. It's like he's put people in there, and I brought up hag Seth. Obviously Matt Gatez didn't get the position that he was shooting for his Attorney General vam Bondi's now in there.
You see a lot of these folks that are in office right now, and clearly the loyalty and the fealty to him appears to be his top priority. So certainly you're not gonna call him a king in a complementary way, particularly in a democratic society that is the United States of America. But nevertheless, the fear that people had seems a bit real because of the cachet and the power that he wields. And you have folks in this country who voted for who says that's exactly what we need.
Because Washington has spent decades not getting things done. How do you argue against that thing.
You got to unpack a lot of what you just said. There's a lot of different important threads there that I want to talk about. One, the president is using his hard power and soft power. He is flooding the zone. Whether you agree with his positions or not, and I don't agree with many of them. Putting that aside for a moment, you have to appreciate the fact that he's pushing as hard as he can, trying to expand his
power as much as he can. If you look at a lot of what he's doing, though it goes against the bounds of the law, it is outside of what the law allows. And that is where these members of Congress and others who constitutionally are required to be a check on him, are not doing their jobs. There are laws in place that he can't get around just by signing an executive order or having a loud and angry
press conference. He wants to change the law, he's got to go through that lawmaking process and get himself the votes in the House, get himself the votes in the Senate, and get a bill to his desk. I fault those members of Congress who are not standing up and doing their part as the American people who say we wanted this kind of change, we wanted this kind of disruption.
I get that. I'm not denying you that. But the way we make change in this country, the way we disrupt things in this country, is by working within the bounds of the Constitution of the United States. And we have seen in the early days the President of the United States trying to go outside the bounds of the Constitution. He thought he could do away with birthright citizenship written in the Constitution by signing the executive order. A court
slapped him down immediately. He thought he could freeze federal funding, funding that had been duly appropriated to the states. Quickly, there was an injunction put in place, saying he couldn't do that, So I guess, Look, I don't blame the guy for trying to expand his power, right, I don't agree with what he's trying to do. The folks that I've got a real problem with are the people who constitutionally are required to stand up to that.
Who aren't Where the Democrat was the Democratic Party going to do about it? Because I've been on records saying who's the voice, who's the face of the Democratic Party? Because it takes a face and a voice to beat the kind of following he's built. I know he doesn't get to run for office again, even though you had some Republican representatives that wanted to push the third term for Donald Trump. Don't get me start with that nonsense.
But considering j. D. Vance, as they considered Marco Ruby as the Secretary of State, considering the fact that they're now a part of that and a position, how he's positioning somebody to take the reins when he's gone. What is the Democratic Party's answer going to be that? I see Josha Pirou, I see Wes Moore. I'm not gonna lie to you. I'm just being honest. I'm allowed in my opinion. I don't see much else right now.
First off, Wes is a great guy, and he's doing a great job as governor, and we're good buddies. I think you're wrong, respectfully, by saying who's the face of the Democratic Party and how is that person going to stop Donald Trump. There will be a face of the Democratic Party when the next presidential race rolls around and Democrats choose to nominate someone to fill that void. In the meantime, I think the answer is not who is the face, but who are the faces? Who are the
people doing this work. I would say to you, respectfully, stop looking at DC all the time. Look to what's happening in the states. Look to how Democrats who are put in positions to govern are governing responsibly. Look at the fact that we've got democratic governors in Kentucky and Kansas to pretty republican states. Look at the fact that in those three swing states Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Donald Trump won all three. There's democratic governors in those three states.
The point I'm trying to make to you, stephen A is there's not going to be one person that rises up tomorrow that becomes that voice tomorrow. But there is a lot of good things happening amongst some Democratic leaders in the States that I think we should be paying attention to, who I think show a common sense, rational approach to governing that can be really formative for the conversation the Democratic Party is going to have to.
Have going forward. I'll end this with the last couple of questions and thank you so much for your time. I'm a sports guy, Yeah, me too, and I think about competition, and so when I think about Donald Trump, I'm thinking about what does it take to beat him. I'm not talking about an individual per se as somebody somebody's being the king or the king make or anything like that. I understand it's going to take a party. I understand it's going to be a collective effort. I
understand one person can't do it all. But I watched this guy stroll down some escalators in twenty fifteen, and there hasn't been a Republican that can touch him in ten years. And so I'm saying to myself, in order to beat him, who in the party can resonate with the American people to have that kind of impact. It seems to me that it would be somebody that has a national profile because the exception work somebody may do locally isn't enough to offset the cachet that he has built.
That's where I'm coming from.
He has no doubt been a dominant force in our politics for the last ten years. My kids sort of awareness of politics in their early years in life are going to be shaped by Donald Trump. I don't think that's a particularly good thing, but it's the reality. And
he has certainly taken over the Republican Party. Now he's not running again, nope, and there will be a backlash to the manner, to the way in which he is governing, the fact that he hasn't brought costs down, the fact that with some of the things he says, he actually potentially makes us less safer around the world. I understand people want disruption, but when they begin to see the effects of that disruption on their lives, there will be a backlash to that. Let's take tariffs as one example.
I was going to bring that up.
He proposed to put a twenty five percent tariff on our two biggest trading partners, Canada and Mexico. That means you're paying twenty five percent more for most of the stuff you buy. He promised to lower cost, that's going to raise costs. There's an effect to that.
Now.
He walked that back like he does most things. But we'll see if he actually goes forward with that in thirty days. My point to you is there will be
a backlash to that. And the answer is not a Democrat who can ride down an escalator, an elevator, or whatever the hell they're can ride down, but actually Democrats who have governed with common sense, who have put points on the board, and who can share a vision for this country that's actually going to bring people back together after Donald Trump has spent the last decade or more dividing them.
Is that answer? Within the two party system, what if somebody said, doesn't need to be a Democrat, can it be an independent? What do you say to that?
I think there's a conversation, you know, we've been having for a long time. Probably the most notable independent in sort of recent memory would be that Ross Perot. And so maybe there will be a third party or an
independent that comes along. I got to tell you something, man, for all its challenges, right now, I'm proud to be a Democrat, and I'm proud to be yeah, I am, and I'm proud to be a voice within the Democratic Party that is hopefully going to heal it from what we just went through, and it's going to help move it along in a way that broadens the conversation to include more people back to what I was saying before.
Broadens it to people that have a high school degree and chose not to go to college because we gave that person some resources so they could go learn to be a welder. Broadens it to include more of our farmers because we invested in our heartland and did what we needed to do to help our farm put food on the table for their families and grow their farming operations. Broadens it to include people who right now feel like our party hasn't been talking to them. That's what we've
been doing in Pennsylvania. And while I recognize we got to go through some change and some learning that Monday morning process we were talking about before, excuse my voice, we have got to, I think, remain committed to what's at the core of our party, which is trying to look out for others, help people, lift people up, give all people a shot. That's how I'm trying to govern in Pennsylvania, and that's why I think we need more of in our party.
My last question to you, Governor, as we sit here right now, you have a lot of American people who feel the damage to this country is on the fringes, MAGA write extreme progressive, left, woke culture, cancel culture, etc. They think about a centrist, whether it's left or right, because they think that's where it meet. Of the people lie people who are willing to compromise or are open minded, as you articulated a little while ago, open the listening
to other folks. Maybe you've made a mistake here or there that that thinking might might might be pervasive to some degree at times. But they think about contrary to what you think. They don't think about Steven Aye Smith. I don't care what the pole say. Steven THEE. Smith's not run office, Okay, Okay, I'm not knowledgeable or nothing. That's not my life was for you think, don't even think about it. I'm not qualified, Okay, but you are.
And there's a lot of people that look at Joshapiro and they say the country deserves more than him being in just Pennsylvania. We need him for the United States of America. What do you have to say about that.
That's a very humbling thing you just said. But I also think, respectfully, you're wrong on something.
Okay.
I talk to people all the time across Pennsylvania and more and more across the country. I don't hear most folks saying to me, oh, I'm on the left, I'm on the right, I'm on this part, I'm this. I think where most people are is just their common sense. They want their lives to be better. They want to know that the people who are serving them are looking
out for their interests. They don't need to agree with me ten out of ten times, but if they know like I got their back, I got compassion in my heart, I'm fighting for them every day. That's good enough for most folks. And so I disagree with you a little bit. Is I don't think this is about targeting the left or targeting the right. I think that's actually disrespectful to attack people because they support Donald Trump or they support on the left. I never slice and dice people like
that or attack them for who they support. I think what we need more of in this country is common sense, people who are willing to have tough conversations with people in another party or with a different perspective than them. Try and surround myself with people on my senior team, in my cabinet and elsewhere who disagree with me on issues, have different life experiences than I do. We're raised differently than me, because that forces me to think about things
in a different way. And ultimately, past policies do things take steps that are looking out for more people than maybe I was just aware of when I began my public service career. So to get back to what you said, I mean, yeah, I'm humbled when when folks acknowledge the work we're doing in Pennsylvania. But I don't think it's left right center. I think it's more like who's on your side, who's looking out for you, who's got the skills to get shipped.
Down for you? Right? But the party makes the politics make you pick a side come election day. I think that's the way I'm getting in.
I don't think that's right. The politics makes you pick a party when you register, okay, right, but come election day, and I'm proof of this. We had a whole lot of Republicans who voted for me. I think what people look to when they finally get in that ballot box is who's gonna fight for me, who's going to look out for me, Who's going to actually solve the problems that matter most to me. It's one of the beefs I've got with Trump. You know, he's focused on so
many things other than actually reducing costs. He's focused on pitting Americans against one another instead of actually saying, Hey, I got all of you guys, I'm the president for everybody. I'm now gonna help reduce your costs. I'm gonna help make you safe. I'm going to help you know, create a job for you. I try and do it in a way that brings people together. I don't think this is an issue where you're only dealing with your side
of the field. I think you got to you gotta work work the whole field.
We are here super Bowl week. I can't thank you enough for giving me your time to be sitting with the governor for the last hour. I can't say enough how grateful I am for your time. I really enjoyed this conversation and thank you for the bottom of mine.
Well, I'm grateful to be here with you. I'm grateful for the conversation and I'm grateful that you are willing to use your voice outside of your comfort zone, if you will, outside of sports, which obviously you're a fantastic and I enjoy that you care about this country, you care about the Democratic Party, and I may not like everything you say, but you're kicking people in the ass and forcing people to think about things a little bit differently.
And I appreciate that about you. And it's time to be here with you.
See. Thank you so much. Anytime, I'm always here for you. Thankk you so much, appreciate it. The Governor of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, mister jos Shapiro, right here with Stephen A. Smith. Wow, it was a privilege, y'all. Anytime you get to sit down with a governor of a state, particularly a state as formidable as Pennsylvania. What can you say? Josh Shapiro and a lot of people's eyes should have been the
vice presidential nominee for the Democratic Party. Had he been the vice presidential nominee, who knows, it might have spelled more success for Kamala Harris. But that didn't happen, and so we move on. Who knows what the future is
for him With the future potential lives. But one thing, you know, just listening to him, hearing how he thinks, there is no doubt that if he isn't, he certainly should be a prime candidate for the presidency of the United States of America in the year twenty twenty eight. We shall see in the years to come. I don't think this will be the last time you'll be hearing
from him. It's certainly not the last time I intend to hear from him, and by the way, all of us should want to hear more from him based on the things that we heard him say today. That's it for this edition of the stephen A. Smith Show. I hope y'all enjoyed that conversation as much as I did, because I loved it, and I'm hoping to have more of it. Until next time, everybody, stephen A Signing off base of love,