Casey HATES this graph

Yum Earth, if you're out there, sponsor us for eating these. Trash? I got your face You guys want to see what my new snack addiction is? This is what we have on Spotify is TJ and Trash talking about snacks. True. True. Tras tras that's what I'm saying, bro.

what I have. I ordered them. Alright. Hold on. Let me before we start. This is my new snack addiction. So in the back corner I have this box of these things called popcorners. Yeah. They're so good. There's this flavor called spicy queso. I ordered a box of queso. I ordered it in bulk of just that flavor and they came in this morning and I'm just gonna destroy that whole box today. It's good every time. Every time spicy queso, pop corners, whatever. Amazing.

Anyways, I sorry. Welcome to the stand-up. Today we have two very special topics. As always, we have Teege DV, we have CC Miratori, and we have Trash Dev. All of them legendary developers from the legendary Twitter community here to talk about the hottest and greatest parts that are happening right now.

Tech today. I kind of stumbled on that last year. I like the moniker. Legendary intro, bro. Moniker inflation is good. Like pretty super good to be like created the entire internet by themselves. Yep. Programming. Casey can we Undisputably, this is the most listened to stand-up in the entire world. Good point. Prove us wrong. This is the greatest, most listened to stand-up of all time. It's the only stand up people look forward to listening to every

Yep. It is our first topic. I buy it. Great question, Casey. Alright, so you know what I just realized I actually know what the first topic is, so I can go ahead and introduce it. Okay, let's go.

The six month anniversary. Nope, it's not that pride. Oh no. Oh no. This is the sixth month anniversary of Tiege being one hundred percent wrong. About the Apple sling for the phone. I marked it on my calendar. He said in six months you're gonna see this and I said nope in six months nobody in the United States will be wearing this thing. Literally no one. And it is in fact no one Because I got tagged. Someone saw it in the wild and tagged me. Like a guitar sense.

Uh AI complete AI fabrication. Clear. Let me find it. Let me find it. Probably. For those that don't know, this is what he's talking about. It's called the Apple uh holy cow, this is just so weird. It's called the Apple Sling. And this thing was marketed for like Sixty bucks or seventy bucks. And the idea was that you'd wear your cell phone on the side. DJ or Casey Trash and I laughed about it.

No way anybody's ever gonna use that. TJ on the other hand said SF is gonna be filled to the brim with them. I don't think that's the direct quote. Child will have one of these slings on. Uh okay. Yep. Twitch chat right now. So we don't re So that was it. That was the entirety of the topic. We don't need to discuss it further. I just wanted to recognize Well look at this. That is one in the wild. That's the person. That is the one that they sold. They sold one of them.

They probably gave it away. He had his body to use his phone once because when you do it on your body it's probably a little inconvenient. I'm working alone, often in darkness. on being wrong on the internet. When not on their computers, they can spend hours drawing crude symbols on something they call whiteboards. Often with more than a dozen used in a single office. However, no linguist has yet deciphered what their purpose is.

Their bodies have evolved over a millennia to be like a very good thing. This will often last for many hours. And finally, after a long day of accomplishing very little, our keyboard warriors ready to be able to do that. Quick read and it's lights out. Yeah. So how do I sleep so well at night? Well, I have sentry to help me crush those bugs, and I'm not I'm not talking about like little teeny tiny South Dakota bugs that die in the winter. I'm talking about big mean jungle bugs.

And I'm not scared of any of'em, by the way, j but I can squash those bugs with C or by. I'll admit I was wrong. I guess I I you guys more correctly estimated The sanity of Apple developers, I under underestim or Apple buyers. I thought for sure that because it was stupid they were gonna buy in and stupid. Maybe can we say can we say Maybe in a different economy. Maybe in a different I think it was just that No, we can't. Because Apple's whole thing is they try to sell products to people

Based on the cache. Like they're they are they have a brand image that's Totally counter to counter to it in the US anymore. Maybe in other you know, maybe there's other cultures where this like was uh kind of more of a thing that people did and they're just you know, it's for the it's for those. regions or something and that's fine. But in the US, I was like, this doesn't fly because Apple has a a brand image and this is so far away from that image. It's exactly like the Vision Pro.

I don't even know why the company shipped. It it's baffles my uh uh baffler. It blows my mind. It's completely baffling. Uh and I it's something that I can't imagine happening if like if if uh the ghost of Steve Jobs were still haunted. He is definitely bucks. Thirty bucks. But so anyway, that's it.

Now the actual first topic of the stand up. The actual fur let me let me do a quick intro here. The actual first topic round three is gonna have to be TJ, trash, and Casey Gay. What does LinkedIn have to say? Now I'm gonna say a phrase. I had to fire teach. Now, before I show it to you, what is The LinkedIn translation of I had to fire teach. What does this mean? LinkedIn translation? Yeah, automatic LinkedIn translator that takes my normal phrase.

Transforms it into LinkedIn. Yeah, it's gonna be really long. Like um this is one of the hardest decisions that we've had to make. Uh but the you know, the company is strong and this only puts us in a stronger Uh Tiege was a very valuable employee and did a lot of great things, and we're really looking forward to what we're doing.

That's great. Trash? I was I was thinking more of like something happens in real life. So it's like I went to the bagel store but the bagel person ended up burning my bagel. Which somehow remind me of Tiege burning down the code at work, which made me realize and reflect upon his recent performance. And now I had to hashtag lay em off. Something some I I was gonna I was going more with

TJ's been my best friend since we founded this company. We've been through hard times, we've been through good times, we've worked together. He came to my wedding, I went to his. He's the godfather of my child. Unfortunately for him, it's time to grind even harder. Hashtag grind, hashtag hard. And and so to do that in the age of AI, I have an age. So I laid off my technical co file.

10,000 lines of code a day. Buy my course below to also ship like this. Wow. All right. To tell you the truth, it was in fact Casey who did the good job. Today I'm sharing one of the hardest decisions. I've ever had to make as a leader. I've had to part ways with my co founder Tiege. Growth isn't always a straight line and sometimes the hardest part of the journey is realizing when paths need to diverge to protect a long term vision of the company. It's about radical candor.

Making tough calls and staying true to the mission. I'm incredibly grateful for the lessons there in this chapter. Onward and upward. Hashtag leadership, hashtag founderlife, hashtag growth mindset, TJ. That's a TJ point and hashtag. See I don't read LinkedIn, so I didn't know they were hashtag obsessed. That I totally missed that. I totally missed that. They are the biggest fans ever of hashtag.

This is why I can't be on that website because I vomit in my mouth a little bit. Just yes, I'm not sure. Due to this post, which was unironically put on here. Which is Michael and I are separating romantically. We're not breaking up as co founders and we're not stepping away. I never got the actual full thing. No. No actually haven't. No, that's not real. That is real. Quick question: Did that guy happen to make an app about tracking when your wife leaves the dishes in a sink? Yes. Oh my god.

I love the idea of of like instead of instead of saying I broke up or we're getting divorced, it's like, uh, we're announcing a change in our chief bedroom officer For our new uh chief bedroom officer. We have a lot of promising candidates. We want to make sure we find the right match. I play it on Internet. In the next six months. Yeah. Yeah. Dude, that's the new Tinder pickup line looking for a CBO. Yeah. Looking for a CBO.

All right. I like that. I like that. I'm I'm I'm serving as interim CBO right now. But it's not it's not long term. Yeah, that interview process is crazy. Yeah. I am avoiding saying anything. I feel like that's our next topic. Quick, quick. All right, so we're gonna actually get to the real first topic of the stand-up. I saw somebody on the internet post this right here.

It's the complexity visualizer. Now, this was posted by STEM Explorer. I presumably a Twitter account about exploring STEM. And they're not sure. Like the thing in the flower? Yes. TJ reached deep for that button because it was it was okay. Uh and so they gave us a complexity visualizer, big O notation rate. In which they have O of one, O of N, O N log N N squared and then of course two to the n kind of like your class.

situation. Now this reminded me immediately of when Casey had an absolute meltdown on the internet over the ball diagram. We had several videos. We This is actually worse. This is actually worse. I didn't know it could get worse than the balls. Well, it's kinda there's two different things. So the meltdown over the ball video, I mean, obviously like I always criticize ball videos. Yeah.

And I'm just I'm just sitting there going like That's a job for the CBO, am I right, boys? Yeah, exactly. Um Chief Ball Officer. Uh well internet chief ball officer Ben Dickon, who at this point is now infamous for these ball diagrams and Loves it by the way. Like he as far as I can tell, he is he is leaning into the ball.

Uh and uh and uh'cause you know, he posts them to get to get engagement. Like that's he you know, he's trying to do uh he's try he's trying to get a riser get people to interact with his uh social media and so like i you know i people people saying these are awful is just as good as people saying they're bad, I assume. I don't really know. But anyway, the problem with those ball diagrams Casey Casey, are you fundamentally opposed to men leading into ball documents?

No, what I'm saying is that he was leaning into it. I'm not making a value judgment. If a man wants to lean into their balls uh or or anyone's balls uh on social media, that's entirely up to them. I don't think that we should be telling them what to do or not to do. That's my

That's just my opinion. Um and I'm sticking to it. So anyway, my problem with the balls was that they're a bad way to visualize data, A, but the reason it but that happens a lot. So that there's a lot of people who post their balls

And it's just like, okay, this maybe the thing that they were posting was actually fine. They happen to want to show you their balls instead of just putting the data in a better format. And I'm just like, could you not do that? Because it's a really it I understand it's eye catching and that's why you're doing it, but it's a very bad way to visualize data and like there's even like you can literally go find studies people have done where they've s looked at

how people like react to different ways of pres presenting data and motion is like one of the worst things to use to try and get people to conceptualize the different Like humans are horrible at comparing like the rate of movement of things as compared to just the size. So

Yeah. So it's just a bad idea for a chart. It's only good when you're trying to bait social media engagement, which to be fair, like I said, I think Ben Dickin knows. So he's kind of off the hook in a sense for that part of it. So really cause that's what he was trying to do. The reason I was so grumpy about those is because the data was wrong. Like the thing that they were Ben Dickens data is usually also wrong, right? So he makes a repository, he invites people to contribute to the repository.

The contributions are terrible, generally speaking. They're just all over the map. And then he graphs them as if they compare like language performance, but they don't at all, right? Um and so it's just not like it's it's bad, it's misleading, and that's why I get upset about that. The balls are kind of, you know, uh insult to injury, if you will. Like, oh now I gotta look at balls while So I wanted to clear that up first. This is something completely different.

This is like They posted a graph that literally doesn't show the thing at all. It is very very true. I've been struggling trying to figure out the meaning behind it for a long time. Like we're gonna talk about the thing. Like constant time is just a wave like this. I'm like what it should just be like a line, right? Like what I don't understand at all.

I have no idea what it's even graphing. Like I have literally no idea. None. I don't know how they I don't know how they came up with complexity visualized, Casey. It says right on the ground. It says right there, Casey. It's pretty obvious. Cut the case. I can't see because of course, you know, this is Riverside and so being able to see the thing I can't read. I can't read any of Yep. But like what's the top one? O oh one? And what's okay, so so O one there's it goes really.

Uh Log N and the next one w is N log N maybe. Oh okay. We skipped n log n all right. Then n log n. No, then n log n because it's slower, right? Okay theoretically it's slower. Then n squared, and then two to the n. So each one is like progressively worse by an order of complexity. With the couple of complexities skipped. So the more squiggles, the worse. Yeah, the more sweet how long it takes to move from one side to the other, but the squiggles are

Yes, correct. The squiggles are all chart. What I was trying to do is count them. I'm like, do the do the squiggles even go in a pattern that has to do with like what the N was And it doesn't even look like that. Well, it would be very difficult because they erase the squigglies. So if you were supposed to deduce the squiggle density.

It's being erased actively. Actively.'Cause like the top one so if that's oh one, then the constant would have to be like three, right? Because there's three squiggles So, and we know that n is one, so you know the constant would have to be three. If the next one is log.

We assume the constant is still three, prob I mean I guess there's no w reason to think that the constant would still be three, I suppose. But I'm just I'm just trying to figure out is there any way to make this line up. I suppose you could just say, well the constant changes at each time and that's where the squiggles I I don't I I literally don't know. I can't figure it out. So the thing that really just grinds my gears is that constant time. Theoretically it does not matter upon the input.

Right, it's just about whatever the coefficient is next to the constant time that really dictates how long it is. That's the constant part of constant. And so the fact that it takes about half the speed as log n really bothers me because constant is a fixed kind of like operating time whereas log n depends on how much input there. Yeah. And so you can't actually make any sort of relational guess between constant and log n.

But in this one they're saying it it's about sixty percent. Yeah that kills me on the inside. Right. On average constant time is about or log in time is about sixty percent as fast as constant time on average. Yeah, like on average. It really hurts me so so much. And then the the then the other part that really gets me is that at the very end

When they're kind of finishing everything up. Uh two to the N exponential time and quadratic time. Exponential time's like twenty per or fifteen percent through. Quadratic time is like 95% way through. Yep. And so it's just like that is not true even in the slightest, right? It's like at at N of ten.

Exponential time is ten times larger. At n of eleven, exponential time is a hundred times larger than n squared. At twelve, it's a thousand times larger. It's like none of this makes any sense. Just driving me just completely insane. This has to be AI general. I assume it is Well they wrote code to generate the end.

Oh, did they? This is not AI generated in the sense that someone came up with this idea and told AI to generate it. I am so positive that if you told AI like, hey, generate the differences between these times. It would have done a standard graph. It would have been more accurate. It would have been this. Yes. Right here. Exact Yeah. Which this I mean I'm looking at that. I'm looking at it.

And I'm like, but which one takes longer? I can't even tell. Because where is the ball moving across the street? Right, right, right, right. I you can't even tell. Oh my gosh, sorry. I was I was just so that's kind of the point, Tiege, right? Like so one of the important things about complexity is that it doesn't tell you how long something takes. You can have an O one algorithm that takes a lot longer than an O N algorithm.

for some N. This is true. Classic array versus uh set lookup when you're doing stuff. This is just how it is. And so the that's the point of understanding like If you try to convey to somebody that O N is faster than O N log N or something like that, you're conveying incorrect information because it's not faster or slower, it's scalable.

There's a difference between those things. And so you need like Even showing anything that implies that there's a speed difference between them is wrong just right out of the gate because complexity is not about telling you how fast something ran. And that's critical to understand. It's so critical that actually in uh in shipping code in deployment, sometimes you will use algorithms that have worse Scaling complexity.

When you know what the N is, because the scaling complexity doesn't matter because the N is low and the constant's too high on the scaling version, right?

On the lower complex here. So you can have times people deploy an n squared algorithm instead of an n log n algorithm. You can have people deploy an n log n algorithm instead of an O N algorithm, and so on and so forth. That will absolutely happen, not because the person didn't know what they're doing, but because that was actually the right choice for the scale of problem. A quick classic example, quicksort, often for the last few elements will switch to insert.

Because it's actually faster to not quick sort on a bunch of small items due to the stack invocation and recursion cost comparatively to the n squared algorithm, worse or standard case, average case of insertion. I didn't even know that.

Uh quick sort worst case is n squared, quick sort average case is n log n and so often inside of those uh also with merge sort you'll break into an insertion sort at the very bottom because it is just better. And so there's a classic example where scaling actually doesn't

Size. Wow. I was thinking too, Prime, of like uh when we talked to Tiger Beetle a while ago of how they like all of their like so many places in the code they have like some assert about the size of how big something can be because they're also like low It ahead of time and others. But so it's like you just say, Hey, I think that this thing should never get over two hundred elements or a thousand elements.

Like it's cool because then you can pick something that works really good where N is less than a thousand. And it's like it's really fast at that thing. And then later, if that invariant breaks, you find out'cause you have a debug failure or like some warning or something.

That can then you're like, Oh, okay, cool. So now apparently we have big enough customers that a thousand isn't always the case. Sometimes it's like ten million for some reason or something. We have some pathological customer that does this, then we gotta go fix that separately, which I

This is actually a publishing that John Carmack does. John Carmack, if you don't know, does the exact same thing in Doom and a bunch of other places. He would assert like the world can't have more than tw like three thousand items. That's just a that's just a reality of life. We would make all of our decisions based off Mm-hmm. There's also cases where you know that there's a limiting factor on the other end. Like for example, if you're like, look, this thing is designed for a ten gigabit

So there you go. Like I know I know how much data is flowing through this thing, and it can't ever be more than that because we don't have you know, and we're we will we will fundamentally redesign this part of the code if we switch. Right. Or this screen like we know that we're shipping on this console that only supports ten ADP. So that's how many pixels are on the screen. Like we know that a particular region of the screen can only have this many pixels, so we're making decisions.

So you can definitely have situations too where you even just know. You're just like, Look, for the deployment scenario, we actually guarantee there is no physical way that it can have a different thing. And at that point you are free to make all kinds of decisions based on and

But okay, so then how do I know which one's f no, I just kidding. So which one is faster? A lot of people like uh complexity is one of those things where it's like the uh It's kind of a I I guess since we were talking about diagrams Complexity theory is definitely one of those things that I feel like is a just the tip kind of uh thing in computer science where it's like, do you need to know complexity theory? A lot of people ask this question, right? Like, do I need to know complexity?

You absolutely don't need to know complexity. Complexity theory is like for g like, okay, you how do you prove something is NP hard or something like that? Like like actually knowing complexity theory, I don't know complexity theory. I don't I'm not gonna give you a dissertation on P space. Forget it.

Uh you do you do need to know yeah, you do need to know just the tip. You need to know like your basic like okay, how do algorithms scale with N rough In terms of how much memory they use and how much like uh how how many concrete operations Whatever that operation is, will they have to do? That's something everyone should know just for the basics, like the ones that were on this diagram, probably not exponential because almost nobody uses.

financial except in situations where so this this may be getting ahead of my s out of my s uh over my skis a little bit but I would say that in general, if you're in the realm of exponential time, so you're thinking of things that are like two to the n complexity or worse, at that point you may start

Like at that point you're in the in the realm of hardcore algorithm design where you probably wanna know more than just the basics because you're in you're gonna start needing to know things about heuristics Heuristic based algorithms, randomized algorithms, things that are like not commonly thought about very much in you know, in work a day programming circles. So

Once you are doing something that's beyond n squared or n cubed and you're, you know, out of polynomial time, at that point you m you may want to know more. But everything below that I'd say is Casey, what happened if you have a a a salesman, okay, and he wants to start in Rapid City, South uh South Dakota. Okay. That's exactly what I that's exactly what I was thinking of in my head when I said that.

those kinds of problems require a a deeper understanding of of algorithm design and the ways that we attack problems that are sort of technically infeasible. Like like theoretically you can't really solve this problem. efficiently as we but we've come up with lots of ways to

You know, maybe not get the best answer, but get a good enough answer that can be used for humanity to do its whatever it was trying to do. Can we prove uh that we will we will get the best answer every time? No, but we can get like close.

Right. And that's you have to kinda n start to know Right uh re by the way, just I know we're we're getting weird uh slightly off, but uh FedEx and uh UPS and USPS, they all have an actual uh NP problem, which of course is bin packing, because if you have X amount of box

Y amount of containers and you need to be able to most efficiently pack these boxes, especially along a route. Now you also have like multiplexing dictras along with with bin packing. Very, very crazy. I mean they actually have a really hard and interesting algorithm to solve. I mean, even just basic things like your s your uh school d what is going on prime?

Oh my god. That will literally break my teeth off my mouth if I take that. That's true. That's true. That's a nice crust on that, Prime. It was good. It was good. I just wanna taste it, you know. Now that the heat's gone. If you just think about like your local school. What the bus routes are and which order they go in, that already is like there are companies who specialize in software.

problem because it it you need heuristic salt. Like you can't if you even just the number of students in your district being five hundred or whatever it is is enough to start to make it be like we can't we can't guarantee you a perfect solution. Like sorry Like that's just out of out of the bounds. So we have to do like things that, you know, take into account that we have uh you know that we don't have to get it perfect in order for it to be good enough.

At my high school Casey, they they wrote that down on the whiteboard, they leave it overnight. See if anybody can figure it out. Any janitors walking by, they've got to be able to do that. Yeah, so so we you know we always look and I don't know. Last time I looked at that sort of stuff, it was kind of generally uh expected.

Look, a lot of these kind of problems you can get very close to optimal solutions. Y you just there's certain like there they have these regions of their of their sort of solution space.

And so if the input data happens to fall in those areas, you are kind of screwed. If it falls outside of those areas, then it's okay and you'll get Anyway, my point in all of that was just to say if that's the kind of thing you're doing, you should know you should know no more than me about complexity at that point, and you should know more about than me about like how you go about solving those kind of problems with you know heuristic approaches.

Things like that, because there's an entire theory of randomized algorithms. It's very interesting, actually, but it's like I don't know it, and a lot of programmers don't know.

Are you ready for n are you ready for part two? So can we say goodbye to our squiggles? Our heart heartbeat di we can all at least agree, heartbeat diagram terrible for complexity visualization. Yeah, I mean I think what this really is is an open challenge to Ben Dickin. It was like what True We can like STEM Explorer has bested you at every possible Not only is the diagram even worse than the bouncing ball. But it also is literally not graphing anything even related to the subject, right?

So I fe that's why I just reposted this and I think I said something like your move, Ben Dickin, because I feel like I feel like at this point he has been so thoroughly dethroned. That like he needs to cup he needs to come back and hit hard here. Because his standard ball diagram is not gonna do it. Like he has been shown up like significantly and you know definitely it's gonna it's gonna be sad if he comes out with something and it's not good enough to get on the pot.

Okay. So Ben if you're out there listening, we need something big from you. All right. Yeah. The squad here, we're looking Q one, that's gonna be you have to deliver by the end of the day. two but we need it in Q one at the very you know that's kind of what I'm targeting. The world is watching. Yeah. They want to see your response to this. Cause STEM Explorer came out of the gate here first time and just absolutely crushed.

I'm having a Dax moment over here. You are. The one thing I will say about the ball diagram, whether you hate it or not, if the data was accurate, at least there was some level of like meaning you could kinda gather from and go, oh yeah, I can see this one's slower and that one's faster. By how much and all that you couldn't really gather. This one I can't gather anything. There's there's actually no Why why are the squiggles erasing on the side? They're getting vacuumed up.

There's no budget there's no budget for uh to keep'em going. I just really hate that they break at the end like Right. Like I mean there's because it it does it with each one of them. As they get to the end, it it like wigs out. Oh no, we've Oh no. That's the I'm done mark. That's like I finished.

All right, all right, we can move on. Um all right, let me let me get back here just in case we wanna cut this as a separate segment. I gotta do like a better intro. Here we go. You know, on the stand-up we like to come together and discuss some things that very important people That make everybody else super upset. And this is just one of those moments where what I've just read.

somehow is the most infuriating complice alt I've ever received, and I'm sure many people have ever received in their lifetime. And of course I'm talking about Mr. Sammy Jibity Altman right here saying I have so much gratitude To people who wrote extremely complex software character by character, it already feels difficult to remember how much effort it really took. Thank you for getting us to this point.

Sam up for the boys. Pack it up, we are done. Uh but I do I really do love this idea that there is no more complex software because it hidden in this statement. Is that the like software complexity is now officially over. Solved. It's actually solved. That's why quad code doesn't flicker anymore, right? This is why GTA 6 supposedly will release this year. Like there is rumors that it's coming that it's coming out. Yeah.

I mean I I don't it it it's like almost th this is this is similar, these two topics are feel very Because the previous one was like, let's have a competition to see who can post the worst graph, right? That was, right? And this it's like it seems like that AI people are doing like let's have a competition to see who like people will dislike.

Right? Like like how do I become some someone that literally no one likes at all? And it's worth noting that it's like including your customers, like a like They don't even wanna be liked by the people who are using their software or they don't know that like I mean unless they're really this unaware that they don't I've got a hypothesis.

You know, they sort of feel like they already won and you know how when you beat a video game you can play it back on like expert mode or like we've I've been playing Slay and Spire two, climbing my ascension rakes. Okay. Right. And each time it adds like more difficulty, right? Like The curse, you don't heal all the way, etc. Um, I feel like this is kind of like okay, well, we already made like a trillion dollars. Can we do it now if nobody likes it?

Right. So that's like so they're they're heaping those things on. They're like, I'm gonna win biggest company in the world on Ascension twenty, open AI edition. That's I think that that's probably what So you think at the beginning like like Sam Altman, you know, for this round of starting It like it popped up those little like pick which card you want to do. And one of them was get a lot of money from people, but nobody liked it.

And and he picked like that was the that was the modifier that he chose to play the whole thing on. Exactly. Right. And then like round one was like it had three options. It was like start a nonprofit to save the world with AI. Then like later it was like, okay, here's a few forks in the road. One was like continue the nonprofit, everyone likes you trying to make

for the benefit of humanity. Option two was make a ton of money. Yeah. When I read this tweet, I had like a visualization in my head as like as I was reading it, as him like saying this, but he was escorting like some old person off the stage. Like kinda just giving them this backhand comment and then just kicking them off the stage and then it was like

Here's the real show kind of thing. Like'cause this is the stuff I tweeted this too, but this is like the exact well at least my emotional response was This is a message of like when you lay somebody off, like thank you for all your hard work at the company. He LinkedIn posted it, bro. Dude, like legit. And I was just like, man. Uh like when you're typing these things, if he is the one typing these things, like does he just hit send like

That's a good tweet. Like I don't I don't want to tell We're gonna love that one. Like how like what what is that scene look like? I would love to just see like surveillance of him posting this. I think I think what you're missing is that he's I think he and like Zuckerberg and a few of these people fall into what is known as the lizard category.

And so I I genuinely believe that he was just like, You know what? There was a lot of people who I've taken all of their work from and in making the biggest company in the universe ever. I need to thank those I'm gonna thank him right now. Here we go, boys. And like got his team together, like, okay, hold on. Oh man, it was so complex. Step by step. Oh my gosh. But uh dude, yeah, it's like honestly, it's hard to even remember how hard that was.

Does he even know how hard like does he has he ever shipped anything that was like a piece of looped what what is looped? I don't know what that is. Okay. Pause.

I'll do I'll do a brown bag lunch on this in a little bit. Okay. Okay. You did brown bag WorldCoin, so I do feel like you have to brown bag world world uh I'll brown bag looped for you. We'll we'll bring you up to speed on that, make sure everyone brings their own lunch, etc. Lunch will not be provided. Just want to make that clear. Yeah. So I I think I actually talked about Dimitri I talked to Dimitri about the Democrats. He was obviously on the podcast last week, uh talking about AI.

The way he said it, I don't want to misrepresent them here, but he w uh I asked him this question. I was like, given that AI companies will face like a bunch of lawsuits, regulatory hurdles, things like this, like Soci they will run into the bureaucratic elements of society. And they will have to navigate.

Right. Um and and I'll point out they also will have to navigate things that are worse than that. So uh you know, I I don't wanna say anything that will get us marked badly on YouTube, but let's just say that like A data center is a pretty easy target for civil

I'll put it that way, right? True. So there's a lot of things that you want if if you were really serious about this, you're like, I want to make a company that does this AI stuff and I want to make sure that it succeeds and does well. There's a lot of things you would care about with respect

says ever, right? If you were Sam Altman and you had any self-awareness, you would not appear in public. You would have somebody else who was your person who appears in public and it would never be you. That's what you would Because nobody likes him and when he opens his mouth he says things that make people Right, not talking about programmers or whatever, we're talking about like the general public when they hear from Sam Altman they really don't

Re he was recently just had another one where we talked about how uh if you compare the the cost of training an AI to how much a human consumes, the AI is actually better. Like no one should ever say like if you care about this as actually getting this thing adopted You would never say anything like that, right? Yes. Because because you should ha you should have someone out there who understands how hum how actual humans

Perceive things, right? Which is not Sam Alman. That's that lizard thing I was telling you about. It's the lizard thing. They just aren't sure what they do, right? They're like, uh and so uh And so to me, I was like, why is that? Like how d and how does no one else step in and go like'cause I mean, you know, when you're looking at a company like OpenAI with these investors putting billions of dollars

Someone would p in theory come along and be like, uh Sam, thanks for all your hard work. You're not gonna be the they're gonna they'd palmer lucky. Like they did at Facebook, right? They're like, You don't get to talk to the public anymore. We're you know, we're replacing like that kind of thing happens all the time for reasons that are strictly about appearance. Palmer Lucky uh well, you know, again, trying not to get into politics too much. Palmer Lucky was on the politically wrong side.

Early on, when his company Oculus was acquired by Facebook, now Meta. They weren't obviously meta at the time because they were just Uh and he was basically forced out of a leadership position there. And he ended up leaving And that was purely clear, wonder kid. front of magazines, super like He was on the cover of Time Magazine everywhere. Like I I do remember him being in the father of VR. Ever like everything.

got fired like he's he was the wonder kid for them. Yeah he was like Jimmy Neutron is like my ex expectation of him. He was actually like a a very talented individual that was like way out there when it comes to talent and building Well, whatever you think about him, he got forced out. Right? Like he like no one disagrees with that, I don't think. That's not a controversial thing say like he did not voluntarily decide to leave Facebook and their VR division because he just wasn't feeling it.

He got for like he was forced to leave uh the division that he was you know, that he had that was his entire thing he wanted to do. Like this was a thing that he started in his bedroom doing, right? He wanted to see if you could use phone displays and stuff A real VR headset now was the technology ready, right? And here it he was getting the opportunity to do that, and he got forced out for political reasons.

So something as simple as that you can force someone out. They're not forcing Sam Altman out. Right. Nobody's telling Dario to s to keep his mouth closed. And so they're pretty funny these days. My question was why? This is why I was asking I asked me, I was like, why? Like what's going on there? Because surely the investors realize that it's better uh for this. And what he said was possibly somewhat convincing, actually. What he said was they have two choices.

One is they garner public Or the other is they garner investor support and they went to the And what he meant by that was if you tell a story about how AI is just gonna be beneficial for everybody and that people won't be losing. And that it will just be like, oh, it'll be easier to get your work done, or whatever it is, whatever the publicly we're just empowering artists, we're not taking their job.

That can't raise the level of investment that you can from private investors if you tell them you're putting So he said they had two choices. One was to go and say that we're putting everyone out of work and we're basically gonna be a pariah because everyone's gonna pay us and no one's gonna pay anyone else and raise their trillion dollars, or they could actually say something positive but they wouldn't be able to raise that kind of money'cause it doesn't sound like

entire industry with one computer and they chose the one that gets them the investment. And I was like, okay, that's that's a pretty reasonable that's a pretty reasonable way to say that. That could very well be That makes a lot of sense.

So you don't think about it that way at all. So you well, this is why it's great to talk to Dimitri, right? He knows those people, like he he's interacted with a lot of these people personally. He knows a lot of them in in that field, and so he has like some perspective on why they do what they do. It's like, yeah, so they could replace Sam

with somebody who was much more appealing to the public and maybe they will after they secure right enough trillions of dollars, then you're like, okay, thanks, this thanks Sam. Right? Now let's put a nice face on. Then they hire Matthew McConaughey. Exactly.

That's who I would hope. Oh well, well. Yeah. I like DJs alright. Matthew McConaughey, that's the solution to this. I'm telling you. You guys seen him in the Lincoln commercials? I mean, he seems like a guy who you would trust. Yeah. You know, it's like that makes sense to me. I like Billy Bob Thurman. I trust him. Oh he could be like it could be like I don't stress the bathroom could be like I don't stress about it.

That's what I'm saying. You'd be like he's so right, bro. He's so right. He's so right. Okay. I mean I love Matthew McConnell too, man. It's Matthew McConnell. Yes. He's gonna legally change his name. Like like uh like um Oh, uh, will I am did, right? To the dots looking at the I am. Great Casey, nice pull. Deep pull, right? Remember when he made a smartwatch? No one does. I do. Uh Shakira, these chips don't lie.

Come on. Don't be a crazy fade. That would be a crazy ad camera. Sitting here right now, I'm actually slightly shocked that Will I Maybe he has it and just didn't make it up. But that would be so something he would do, right? Black eyed peas, right? Originally yes, but then he had his a solo Yeah yeah. Career. I have no idea who that is, to tell you the truth. Okay, I need to make a

Prime, there's an era that you probably missed out on because, you know, maybe you you're you're not quite as old as I am. But there was an era where companies, especially international Uh but not exclusively. had sort of brand ambassador. And these were people who were like enthusiastic about technology, but didn't really have all that much to do with it. Will Iam was one. Does anyone remember Shingy? Are you trying to say Chingy? Nope. Shingy. He was he was an experimental artist.

Who was like a brand ambassador for I can't I can't even remember which company, but a major company like Hewlett Packard or something. I don't remember who it was. But like and they would produce these videos that were just like, you know, them talking about how cool technology is, but non-specifically. This was the whole thing that happened. And there's more I'm not remembering the role. There's several other celebrities who were like

in that vein and you're just like, What is going on? But that was just it was cool for a while in like the early two thousands to have like this pseudo s like it's usually B list, like it's not, you know Uh I'm not trying to think of who the A-list are it's not Jennifer Lawrence who is right. It's not A-list celebrity, someone who's like launching a major motion picture.

just below like B tier. Somebody that people have heard of, but it's like you know Prime. Like Prime. Dude, that'd be so good, dude. I'd definitely do that, dude. Healer Packard. And be like, look at this printer. I got all these inks. I got all the inks, babe. I got all these inks. Speaking of color. Name a color right now. I got it. Prime, can I tell the story about what happened on the call for nothing but net?

Sure. I don't even know what the story is, but you could you couldn't. What does remind me of you saying Hewlett Packard We all call it HP. you'd like not knowing acronyms. So we're doing an event next week with Sentry, uh, in at the Chase Center, which is where Golden State Warriors play. We have to go to a game afterwards. We're gonna do something very fun. It's gonna be a surprise actually. We can't tell you what our actual thing is. I'll tell you.

Oh, secret details. Sorry, chat. You're not cool enough to know this. Only I get to know. Yes. And me. And I'm not sure. Yeah. Um snacks he's provided. We're like fifteen minutes into the call with them, and there's someone from Golden State on the call, Sentries on the call, me and Prime are on the call. They've said things like

The GSW staff will do this or like meet you know, go through GSW this, blah, blah. They've said the the acronym GSW about 35 times at least. And we're 15 minutes into the call, and finally, Prime goes. So what is GSW? Cause I'm like, get shit one. Like I kept saying it in my head, get shit one. I had no idea. Yeah, is that like graphics software or Yeah. I didn't know I did you guys were doing it there, that's crazy. Oh my goodness.

And we're on the call. Like you s we've been talking about the Warriors. We've been talking it's not like we were surprised about what NBA team is at the place. Golden State, what is the Golden State? New Jersey? What is the Golden State? That's uh I don't know that acronym. What's Golden State? Golden State that's it's the San Francisco. Golden State Steph Curry. Okay. Golden State. That's even better.

I don't know basketball at all. That's fine. Oh I miss oh crap. I missed my chance again. I was supposed to say something like I don't follow hockey. And that's twice I missed an obvious setup. I thought you were gonna say something like I never watch moving ball. I hate that crap. Yeah, exactly. It is a proven bouncing people cannot comprehend speed. Uh all right, so Golden State Warriors is the San Francisco basketball team. Yeah. I believe so. Possibly the great.

Possibly. Okay. Maybe. Alright, so I I do wanna hey, I uh in my own personal defense, I would like to say that we're ending the podcast. It is one of my strengths. That I am willing to ask any question. That part was good. I was proud of you. I was proud of you that you asked even though

the call. It was just it this I thought I could just pick it up. I thought I could just pick it up. Honestly, I was like, Oh, they used it once. I'll probably get it the second time. They used the second time. I'm like, I really don't understand it from this context. Here we go. I have to do it. It just cracked me up because it was like That's like a record scratch moment. It was. It was. They didn't care.

Hey man, it's better than me not knowing which the like like thinking like oh New Jersey like'cause that's like I don't think anyone from San Francisco wants to be told they live in New Jersey. Yeah, yeah, they're offended. Right. Where is this team from? It's like New Jersey or something. It's like, no, it's San Francisco. It's like, oh well, slightly dirtier but still okay. Um here's something I would like to share.

Since you brought up Hewlett Packard. Great. I just want to underscore for for the all the young people out there, which is like everyone. A lot of people don't remember because or because they were too l they were like in diapers at this time. I just want to point this out. Just to underscore how much this industry changes in a relatively short period of time.

If you were to say today, I've got a brand new CPU, brand new chip coming, get hyped, everyone. I've got a brand new chip coming from Hewlett Packard. Literally nobody would be like, Oh wow, like I can't wait to see or most people would just be like, What? Like what are you talking about? Like they don't do they're just like

They're like Dell or something. They're just, you know, they just they make like printers or monitors. I don't even know what they make. Doesn't matter, right? Hewlett Packard was actually the partner. Them and Intel were the two people who were supposed to have designed the chips that you would be using today. When X86 was going to move from 32 bit to 64 bit, they announced that the way that would happen was a thing called Project Itanium.

And the Itanium was made by architected by Hewlett Packard and Intel as a joint venture. They were the people'cause Hewlett Packard was like a big name in computing at at the time. Well remember it. Yeah. And the entire thing fell apart and did not end up producing chips that anyone wanted because the only reason people are So Itanium was not at all what's the same. And so that was like the laugh.

Th the last there was of of Hewlett Packard being like a big player, like if if that had happened, they would be a company you'd be thinking of today as like major CPU player potentially, right? But as it is now they're just completely forgotten. Like no one cares about sorry. I'm sorry, nothing. Actually HP, we could throw this image around. If you would hire a B list celebrity, I don't know whom. I Yeah. Sam O'Coff D is available. I got an HP printer right behind me.

I was thinking though if HP wants to get into the chip game, yeah, they just start making new snacks and send them to trash. Yep. That'll get them on the map. I use my HP printer every day. I just had a I just had a vision of like of like uh trash going to hot chips, like trash going to hot chips twenty twenty seven and being like, There's no snacks here at all. This is the worst conference ever. This is terrible. Yeah, that's true. You should go to Hot Chip.

And you should get a booth and you should be giving out the best chips out there. A stand up booth where we just hand out snacks? Yeah. Oh. Does hard. Do cover tired silicon chips, wired corn chips. That's that's what we're talking about here, guys. Here we go. Uh well it's popped popcorn chips now or something. Well, I don't know what trash is. Popcorners. Popcorners. Yeah.

And yum earths. Well, at the end of the day, this tweet sucked. I personally think uh Casey The reason why he tweets this stuff is the same reason why uh Elon Musk tweets stuff and the same reason why Trump tweets stuff. Okay. And all those people do, which is what is it? Uh that nobody can tell them no.

And they just are like, This is who I am. I'm di uh and they just go out there and whatever comes to their mind is what's going out on the internet and that's just that and you just get stream of consciousness, whether you love it or hate it, that's what you're getting, baby. I mean it could be, it could be. I don't know. I mean that most people

are trying to when they're communicating to the public, they're trying to communicate in a way that gets the the reaction that they wanted, usually. Right? Like even if that reaction is I was trying to piss Right. But I don't know, maybe they're not. Like maybe Sam Altman really just doesn't have any idea. I feel like for a lot of people that tweet played well. I mean for but people in A by the numbers, thirty-three thousand likes. But is that isn't that just kind of generally what tweet

I don't know. Two thousand's a lot, but we can we can we can do some sleuthing. Two thousand, two thousand. I've just I think like crazy graph six thousand eleven in AI, particularly let's say somewhat high. Yeah. It's disproportionately very high compared to all of these. Well twelve K that one I guess. They are ten K. I'm saying people who come into they're doing their first coding thing ever. They're doing other stuff. They're not even they're not software developers, right? Like

They they don't it's w they don't have any respect like for the craft or like who came before well, you know, in the sense of like why and why should they, right? Like it that doesn't make any sense. That would be weird for us to just be like, Yeah, you guys should really know who John Carmack is and why he was awesome at program this stuff and what it's like they don't it's just like it's cool that I mean

That's it. Also, it's cool that I could talk to my computer and it can make something, even if it's bad. That's dope, right? So like, okay, we'd separate out the fact that like I don't necessarily like maybe how they got some of it or some of the people or the companies or their legislation or whatever. But like it's sick that I can talk to the computer and be like, make it purple, make it in a purple theme, no mistakes, and changes the website to purple. And then I'm like, rounded corners.

That is put it in a box. And then put another box. In a box, in a box, in a box. I want every div to have a border and three pixels of spacing. So I know AI made that this web page. Okay. That's Marquee tab. Marquee tab. So that part you know like that part is cool I feel like for people who are

Hey Sam, you're like screwing. Maybe like there's some aspects where we're moving too fast, you're screwing over the profession, you guys are like putting out a lot of slop, you're giving people the wrong expectations, whatever. If you don't have those like preconceived notions for

That that is like a nice tweet saying, like, hey guys, thanks for helping us get here. Like, we're excited for the future. I got you know, like for people who have a different background, I feel like that's how you would take it. Yeah, I mean it could be just a case of like addressing.

Audience at the expense of another audience and just being fine with that, right? Yeah, yeah. Uh I mean we're definitely in the minority. Yeah, right. There's way less people that have written code before AI than that will make some code artifact after AI. Probably already true. Just'cause like people try random stuff on the websites. But yeah. Right, right. I mean'cause it could just kinda spit out code. So you would think right, yeah. Looks like that's the stand up. Any blockers?

Mm. Your code that I look at every day. True cat's trash from real life to trash. How much of my code do you actually run into? I'm actually like deep in your code. Wait, which one? Uh I'm doing like T T R stuff right now. That's not a good sign. That's not a good sign. I'm gonna rewrite it all. Yeah, go for it. Please. I didn't I didn't design the curd one. The that the TTR concept was mine. How it works and loads like, say, for evolution and for MDP versus

Leaking knowledge secrets right now. Uh that is all that was that was a different person. I won't say his name, but that was a different person. Mm-hmm. Good luck. Casey, any blockers? Um yeah. I don't want to talk about it. Kinda seems like you gotta talk about it. You gotta you got something on your chest you need to get off. Let's get in the stew. I

I think I've said on this podcast before, uh literally I think I said it on this podcast, but I don't know. Maybe I maybe it was somewhere else. Uh but I th I have said it that the the one time where I can relate to people with like uh a web stack of some kind that like right And uh so I currently uh I have to move a server from like an old I wrote this little C program that just does our mailing list management for us, but it has to hook up to a web server.

And like it was on Apache and now it has to be on NGINX. For some reason. And they don't support CGI bin. They only support fast CGI. So now I have to just go like relink the program with like a fast CGI library. But of course I've never looked at the fast CGI library before. So like I don't love having code chip. Looked at and all this. So that is currently what I get to do later this week for no reason. This is all useless work, right? That's why I say, like, I always relate.

that'cause I'm just like, this is useless. There's no there's no point to any of this. It doesn't accomplish anything. It's literally just busy work to move something from one protocol to another with no value add other than just that's what happens to be occurring. I think you also said phrases such as CGI bin that most people will have no idea what you what you're saying and the other people will shudder a little bit. Yeah, so in the old old old days, like wicked old days.

That was just how you got if you have a web server running and you wanted it to interface with like a C program that you'd compiled. So you wanted to extend the behavior. There was this protocol for like, okay, here is how we will invoke some executable on the drive, and we'll set environment variables to let it know what, you know, what the user had set up in the forum. The biggest one being that you're actually having to execute the uh you have to run the executable

So you know in other words, there's a process that has to be started and so on. So if you were thinking about trying to do something high bandwidth, you wouldn't want to do this. And so the way that they, you know, solved that problem for things that wanted to look like this is they created a thing. Fast C.

Which was just like, oh, now we just run something and we'll just communicate uh with it by using like shared memory or something like this, right? You know, we can or or packet passing or whatever, you know, we'll we'll just have some way that we'll solve this problem. Uh so that the process stays running. And so that's how you would do it today if you had if you have some program that's like an external program, but it's not it's not as convenient because it's not really external.

Right. It doesn't you now have to have that protocol baked in. It just sounds like a web server, but worse. It's just like, hey, here's a web server, but unique. You don't even get HTTP, you just get like Uh well it's it's another way to look at it would be uh hey, you've got the you know you want someone else to handle HTTPS for you because you don't want to re- And you don't wanna implement an ASN one parser uh and you don't wanna do that. Which is very understandable.

a huge pain in the butt. And it's constantly changing too. They're like, oh, you know, like if you had done that back with PLS one one and then they came out with one two and one three, like now you're running back and upgrading your software to like the new cipher suites and all this other So it's like it's a maintenance headache too. So if you just wanted someone like NGIN NGI

Um to do that for you, but you would like to write the part of the code that does the rest, FastCGI is kind of a nice way to do it. You just go like, all right, I you know. But you could also do a plug-in, you know, NGM. I don't care about any of this stuff. He's just blocked by it. I just don't want to do it called it. I just don't like this kind of thing. It's annoying. Okay, okay, okay. TJ, any blockers?

Yeah, um about six months ago Beeganbot promised me a funny edit of a video where uh there's a song where they interspersed goats screaming inside of a Taylor Swift song. And I really my wife asked for that, but with a pan flute instead,'cause that's Began's signature song for or signature sound for a Suno song.

And I'm still waiting for it. I've been blocked on it literally for six months. My wife regularly asks me about it. And every time I'm on the phone with Began, she asks and he always says, he's gonna get that to me soon, tomorrow, today. I don't know. He said, but so I'm blocked. So thanks. If you're having trouble uh with your wife Tiege, I do think trash has a pretty good probably help with that remote. Okay. No more problems of the marital variety.

I won uh Prime last week when I was at the office I was like going through like somehow I end up on one of your old PRs and it was uh you and Benmo and it was like some formatting thing and you're like sorry it's like you know Vim things you wouldn't get it and it was it just made me like crack up in the office just by myself. I was like that sounds exactly like Prime. Hey guys, if you work at Netflix and you see trash make sure you say hello.

He does love it. All right. Also, hey, I have some blockers. I know, I was gonna ask Prime with some blockers. Prime has blockers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh my blocker is that uh Casey needs to say Nginx correctly, or I'm gonna lose my mind for the rest of the day. I'm not gonna do it. Nginx. I'm not gonna say Nginx. I'm pretty sure it's pronounced NYX. That's what people are always talking about. I say Nick. Nginx.

I'm not saying it doesn't look like that to me. No, I'm not. No I'm not. I'd be like in ginks is like what I would actually say if I You're saying every letter, huh? Nginx. Yeah, N G I N X. I guess it's not that terrible to say N G I N. It sounds more sophisticated like when you say N G I and X it sounds like you're talking about some kind of like uh

Municipal telephonic like telephone exchange or something like this, right? Like it's like oh yeah, NGINX. Like they serve us. I call it N3X Greater New England areas telephone uh service, right? Mine's N three X. That's what I like. Yeah. That's that. That's the stand-up. Everybody get the hell out of here. Get to work, okay? Go, my goodness, we gotta get to work. Bye, everyone. Bye. Bye.