Episode 10 - The NBA Finals

A hoop and a ball. That's all you need. A hoop and a ball. Anyone can play. And anyone can play anywhere. In a garden. On a driveway. In the streets. A local park. In a high school sports hall. In Allen Fieldhouse. Or at Madison Square Garden. Basketball is like life. And life is like basketball. You aim high. You take on people bigger than you. Sometimes you get knocked down. Sometimes you miss. Sometimes your mates help you out. And sometimes you hit a slam dunk. It's

just a game. A game played by giants, though, right? Well, tell that to Mugsy Bogues. You might not think it, but anyone can go all the way. But even those who are lucky enough to make it to Game 7 and win it all will find out that some things never change. As Charles Barkley once said, the only difference between a good shot and a bad shot is whether it goes in or not. This is the Sporting Almanac Podcast. Good evening, Jack. Good evening, Ben. Good evening, Evenal.

That's a great start. Good evening, all. Yes, good evening, loyal fans of the Sporting Almanac, who are here for our witty banter and our competence behind the mic. We're learning. We're learning on the job. Episode 10. Episode 10, the NBA Finals. Kind of fun, because neither of us really know heaps about this sport. No, and it's a sport that I've always had struggles forming, I guess, an emotional bond with, perhaps compared to other sports, because it's something I got into later.

And I get very emotional and romantic about sports, and without that sort of link there. I fell in love with the Jets because they were so useless. I fell in love with the Colorado Rockies because they were so useless. I fell in love with Liverpool because... You know, watching them as a kid when you know you're from there and you know you've got roots there and they've got great players in their team. So slightly different from my American links. But basketball, yeah, I've really

had it. But one good thing about this process and this podcast is I think I'm starting to get some. So that's nice. Yeah, it is nice. That's exactly how I feel about it. Because it's not a big sport in the UK. It's growing, arguably. It would be an overstatement to describe it as big. And our only real exposure to it is the

NBA. And that's on. unsociable hours more often than not yeah it's uh in terms of our actual competitiveness as a country there is virtually none there's been a handful of british nba players in the past but very few and far between obviously there's a big influx of players from around the world and from europe generally in the nba in sort of the past 20 years or so so as a sport popularity wise it is growing um but it's nowhere near the same level of prominence as american

football yes in the uk for example Big in Spain, big in Greece, big in some of the Eastern Bloc countries. Big in France. It is big in France. Tony Martin. Yeah, it is big in France. That's a good point. But yeah, we've somehow managed to dodge the basketball bug. Should we just dive straight into a little bit about the NBA itself? Since it's at its climax, I guess we've got to set the scene a little bit. Yeah. 30 teams. Head first. 30 teams. 2 -15. team conferences, Eastern

and Western, keep it simple. The top eight from each conference qualify for the playoffs, which is a fact you hate. They have the play -in tournaments where the top 10 teams in each conference have a chance to get in, but the teams ranked seven through 10 play a play -in game against each other. So realistically, the top two thirds of the league has a chance to reach the NBA finals, which to me, not a fan of, especially over it, because it's an 82 game season, 41 games at home,

41 games away, long season. How many of them must just feel like exhibition games? That's my problem with it. Yeah, I think that's a fair critique. But it is America and it is about cash dollar. And that's a lot of games. And I guess the one good thing about the number of teams you get in, if we can put a positive spin on it after our Champions League episode, which was a big rant, it would be to say that knockout basketball is more fun than league basketball.

And that's a big knockout tournament. Yeah, I've no doubt that the tournament itself, the finals, the playoffs in general are fantastic and very exciting to watch. But yeah, I think there's more of a balance that can be found. That's just my opinion. Feel free to shoot me. No, no, I think that's right. I mean, you don't need an 80 game. Basically, the point of the league is that it creates a seeding system. So you obviously lose the worst teams. So there's that point to

it. Otherwise, it's just a seeding system into a knockout tournament, and the two winners of the respective conferences. So there's a knockout tournament in the Eastern Conference and the Western Conference, and the two winners of those respective conferences play each other in the NBA Finals in a best of seven, with the team having the best regular season record, getting home court advantage, which is a rule that persists throughout. the playoffs themselves, so the highest

ranked team gets home court advantage. Yeah, they're all seven game series. Yeah, and it's four at home for the higher ranked team, and in the finals that will be whoever is ranked higher. And this year is a very fun year. We are actually recording it before the second position has been finalised, but it's Oklahoma Thunder who are through having beat the Timberwolves. Yeah. And the Knicks are playing the Pacers,

and the Pacers are dominating them. I think they're 3 -1 up with the game five tonight, our time, 1 a .m. And so it could well be the Indiana Pacers versus the Oklahoma Thunder unless there is a remarkable comeback. However, this playoff series has seen some remarkable comebacks already. It could happen. You never know. It could happen. And the thing that's very fun about it is that the four teams that have made the conference finals are all on or were in the case of... Obviously

the Timberwolves because they're gone. Championship droughts. So the Knicks have not won since 1976 and that looks like it's going to carry on. Thunder have only won once in 1979 and the Pacers have been to the final in 2000 but have never won it before. And unfortunately for the Timberwolves who are gone, they've never actually made an NBA finals. This is not a sport like American football or to a lesser extent ice hockey or even baseball. Yeah, baseball too, to be fair.

Yeah, where you get changes of the guard. This is an era sport where teams dominate. This is a three -peat league. There's never been a three -peat, as we say, as in three victories in a row, in the NFL, for example, or in the Super Bowl era, certainly. However, basketball, they are not uncommon. Teams dominate long periods. You've got the Bulls era in the 90s, Chicago Bulls, Lakers in the 80s. Celtics of the 60s.

Yeah. But apparently we are entering the parity or we are in the midst of the parity era, which I think is really actually quite cool. Yes. And by that we mean, we should explain, it is the longest continuous period in the NBA's history where a different team has won the finals in each season. So that's 2019 to this year. We'll

have had consecutive different winners. Which is very fun because, yeah, as you just said, Jack, and we'll probably explore a few of these eras in a bit of detail as we talk through the history of basketball and some interesting people. But yeah, you said the Celtics in the 60s. More recently is Golden State in the 2010s with Steph Curry and co. Prior to that, it was San Antonio Spurs and LA Lakers shared the 2000s with Kobe and Shaq. Yeah, and then you've already mentioned

the others. Going back a bit further in time. Most famously for our generation, the Chicago Bulls, obviously, with the three -peat repeat. Yeah. So, yeah. So, should we... Now that we've set the scene, should we sort of explain where it all emerged from? It seems a sensible place to start. We do like to go back to the beginning, so... Yeah, back to the beginning. Shall we? We'll rattle through this because... There's

a danger. We've got a lot to get through. Yeah, and we'll dwell on this, that, and the other. But a brief history of basketball itself, and then we'll talk about the formation of the NBA. But basketball itself was invented in 1891 by a Canadian guy called James Naismith in Massachusetts. I think he created it as an alternative sport to American football at the time because it was a game that could be played indoors in the winter

and a game that was less prone to injury. But the concept of basketball dates back to like 1591. There's some German journal sort of making reference to a game involving throwing a ball against a target woven from twigs mounted high on a pole in the middle of a large playing field. Throwing stuff at targets high up is probably a fairly easy way of keeping yourself entertained. And as I sort of alluded to in the intro, doesn't take much, right? Pretty easy sport. No, pretty

accessible. A bit like football, as in soccer. Just a ball and a couple of jumpers for goalposts and you're off. You just need a ball and a high target. And less people for basketball. This is true. So, yeah, played in colleges originally, the army. Some minor professional leagues came and went in the early 1900s. But FIBA, so the International Governing Body, was established in 1932. But yeah, the formation of the NBA.

kind of happened independently of the formation of basketball as a global sport so to speak yeah it's um it surprised me actually when looking into this how new the nba is yeah relative to other american sports leagues very obviously major league baseball is by far the oldest that goes back into the 19th century we spoke about the history of the nhl and the nfl in previous episodes so they go back to The early part of

the 20th century, pretty much. Really, the NBA only really took off as a big league from the 50s onwards and really only properly in the 1960s due to a couple of stars that we'll get into later on. It's much newer as a big sport than its competitors in terms of major American sports. Yeah, it is. Because it was basically organized basketball in the States and the roots of the

NBA was basically laden. in 1925 in the east of the usa via the american basketball league or also known as the abl that was actually set up by the president of the newly formed nfl but only ran until there we go yeah but only ran until 1930 i think there's gonna be quite quite a lot of crossover here because it's basically just rich dudes in america and to be fair that there's similar things in uh other sports as well individuals from prominent positions being

responsible for setting up quite a lot of sports because they just love it. Some people just love setting up a sports league. Yeah. Lamar Hunt as well, who we spoke about, tennis, football, and American football, or tennis, football, and soccer, I guess he'd rather I said. Yeah, a finger in many pies. Indeed. But yeah, so the ABL came and went, but it was the first sort of properly

organized league, I guess. I might be slightly misplaced in that thinking, but... there or thereabouts and then um yeah given a new lease of life in 1937 in the midwest uh by the national basketball league or the nbl um which was basically big in midwestern industrial cities and that ran until 1949 it was basically positively amateur and the sport itself just has really emerged from pretty humble beginnings most of the abl and nbl games were played in like very small

arenas and some were even played in like ballrooms and high school gymnasiums So, you know, it didn't have the populist support that other sports might have had, which sort of propelled them into sort of more functional, widespread entertainment businesses early. But yes, then came the Basketball Association of America, the BAA. BAA. Everyone having a go. Yeah. Well, this is also a common theme, isn't it? Like just competing leagues

and then it all. eventually organizes itself under a single umbrella entity the BAA founded in 1946 several teams were founded in the BAA including three that co -founded the league so you might have heard of these the Boston Celtics the New York Knicks and the Philadelphia Warriors which are now Golden State because we know Americans like to move around with their franchises BAA that was set up by the owners because we'd like we like to do this on the almanac we like to

draw the threads together it was set up by the owners of some teams who would go on to form the nhl there we go yeah so uh realizing that they could presumably i was going to say presumably because they wanted to use the rinks in in the summertime or that's exactly for something else other than ice hockey yeah you preempt all about the money yeah all about the dollar um you preempted that exact exactly that realizing that they could utilize a couple of their fairly prominent venues

you might have heard of them as well madison square garden maple leaf gardens what can we do with them when we're not playing ice hockey we can play some basketball fantastic yeah And so that's the first time the leagues have sort of attempted to play primarily in large arenas in major cities. But the quality of the league wasn't necessarily significantly better than the other leagues. In 1948, three more sides joined the BAA from the NBL. So we had some defectors

who also still exist. So Fort Wayne Pistons, now Detroit. The Minneapolis Lakers, now LA. And the Rochester Royals, now Sacramento Kings, which is, I guess, still the same theme. royal to king but at least they tried. Yeah that's random that. Yeah and anyway all of this leads to the creation of the NBA on the 3rd of August

1949. There was a merger between the BAA and the NBL at the BAA offices which were located in one of Empire State Building in New York and it basically led to the president of the BAA becoming the president of the NBA and the president of the NBL becoming the chairman of the NBA. And it's actually got quite a rocky start from

here. It's not all plain sailing. So even though it's created in 49, the new league then has 17 teams, because obviously they merge, a mix of large and small cities, as well as a mix of large arenas, small gymnasiums, and even some armories people were playing in. Fair enough, yeah. Because of, I guess, some sort of political wrangling between the two entities that merged, the NBA has officially adopted the BAA's history for

some reason. But in the early years, what I was going to say, sorry, I went off on a little bit of a tangent there. What I was going to say is when I say go off to a rocky start, in its early years, it actually got smaller. So it didn't expand immediately. In 1950, it consolidated to 11 teams. And then in 54, it reached its lowest number, 54 -55, reached its lowest number of eight. But they are quite famous. So they're sort of... The core of the league. Yeah, the

core. That's a good way of putting it. The Knicks, the Celtics, Golden State, LA Lakers, Sacramento Kings, Detroit Pistons, Atlanta Hawks, which were the Milwaukee Hawks, and the Syracuse Nationals, which is now the Philadelphia 76ers. So yeah, that's how we got... to the NBA and then from there... Milwaukee Hawks were also the St. Louis Hawks at one point as well. There's a lot of teams in different sport history that go through St. Louis but don't stay there, like the Rams

and the Cardinals as well in the NFL. Anyway, carry on. I was going to come on to something else but I'm just going to jump forward and just quickly explain that effectively the NBA... You would have thought it was looking good there, but it wasn't. It was challenged very briefly in 1967 by the ABA, the American Basketball Association. And basically the league's engaged in a big bidding war. As is the want of wealthy American businessmen,

it seems, when it comes to American sports. If you've got enough cash, just throw it at it and see if you can take over. But, as you might. No, and anticipate. The ABA was not successful because you've never heard of it, and the NBA still exists. That is because the NBA landed some of the most important college stars of the era, and one in particular was a chap called Kareem Abdul -Jabbar, who people might have heard

of. Yeah. He basically became the league's best player of the 70s and one of the all -time greats. There were some others, but we're going to come back to those. The NBA's leading scorer, Rick Barry, didn't all go swimmingly, sorry. The NBA's leading scorer, Rick Barry, actually jumped ship and went to the ABA. And so did a series of referees, which I don't know why is significant, because who gives a shit? That's not why people come and watch. Who cares if you've got the best refs?

No, you should never know the names of referees or never care about the names of referees. And if you do, they've probably done something wrong, which has happened in the NBA, but not a story for today, that one. Yeah. But anyway, again, in response to that challenge, the NBA just went full America on it and just expanded as rapidly as possible. And so from 66 to 74, they grew

from nine franchises to 18. And in 1970, the Portland Trailblazers, the Cleveland Cavaliers, and the Buffalo Braves, who are now the Los Angeles Clippers, all made their debuts, expanding the league to 17. And then they were followed by

the Jazz, bringing it up to 18. And then, yeah, following the 1976 season, the NBA and ABA reached a settlement that provided for the addition of four ABA franchises to join the NBA, which were the San Antonio Spurs, the Denver Nuggets, the Indiana Pacers, and the New York Nets, who are now the Brooklyn Nets, which brought us to 22. So, yeah, like that's basically the NBA. Got

off to a pretty rocky start. Like loads of wrangling between the leagues meant declining television ratings, low attendance, drug related issues, both perceived and real. And then. And then. And then came Larry Bird. And? And Magic Johnson. So Larry Bird of the Celtics, Magic Johnson of the LA Lakers. And that. Sparks major fan interest. They caused the NBA to grow in popularity very, very quickly. The two had faced each other in the 79 NCAA Division I Basketball Championship

game. I'm going to assume Magic Johnson won and I have a stat later which makes me think that's the case. Oh, nice. Getting Magic Johnson's team won that. Yeah, okay, nice. I didn't actually

look that up. we love a triple crown apparently that's becoming a thing and there is actually a triple crown of basketball and only eight players have ever won it and one of those eight players is magic johnson that is a winning the ncaa division one championship winning an nba title and winning a gold medal at the olympics that's your triple crown nice since larry bird's not on that list and magic johnson is i'm going to assume magic johnson came out on top here Because both of

them have an Olympic gold and both of them have an NBA ring or two. Several, actually. Well, they definitely have several because these two guys were basically in every single final for a while. They played each other in three finals, 84, 85, 87. But in the 10 seasons of the 80s, Johnson led the Lakers to five titles and Bird led the Celtics to three. The 80s actually was kind of a big deal for the NBA. In fact, a massive

deal for the NBA. because the Dallas Mavericks also joined in the 1980s, bringing the teams up to 23. But two more very significant events, and perhaps we'll circle back to these, because I just want to mention something else before we do. But in 84, Michael Jordan was drafted in by the Bulls, and everyone's probably heard

of Michael Jordan. But perhaps less famously, in the same year, David Stern became the commissioner of the NBA, and he was a pretty influential dude, and perhaps we can talk about him a bit more.

But... before we do jack i just want to quickly well i want to i want to introduce something and i want to allow you to talk about someone so the nba is famously associated with um african americans uh but despite that um association uh in a similar way to say like the men's 100 meter final is guys from african american backgrounds tend to be very talented this sport is very popular within the culture but it wasn't always that way despite like it That now being the demographic,

what I mean by that is in 2023, 70 % of the league was black. It didn't start that way, and maybe that's unsurprising given America in the 1920s and 40s. It was an all -white sport, basically. And a Japanese -American guy called Wataru Misaka is considered to be the first person to have broken the color barrier in the 47 -48 season when he played for the Knicks in the BAA. He remained the only non -white player in the league's

history until Harold Hunter came along. And he was an African -American and he signed for the Washington Capitals in the 50s. But he was actually cut from the Capitals. Did you know this before the training camp? I didn't know that. No, I knew about the first drafted, as in Chuck Cooper and Noel Lloyd. I think I actually mentioned them in the NFL episode, but I did not know about Harold Hunter. Yeah. And you've just mentioned

the other two guys. And there was one other, Nathaniel Sweetwater Clifton, which I think is a great name, came in with the Knicks. But basically from there, African -American players never looked back. And some of the legends of the game quickly took center stage, which brings us on to two chaps who I think you'd like to talk about. Yeah,

so... The first two real superstars in NBA history, the first real true superstars, I would say, both African -Americans, both legends in their own rights, both giants of men, one of whom I'm going to speak about particularly, but you can't speak about one without speaking about the other. Those two men were Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain. I'm going to focus on Bill Russell today, but even, I mean, the amount of time we have today, it's another introductory episode to a sport.

I do not have enough time to get in everything about Bill Russell. The thing about this podcast and what we've been doing so far is, as I mentioned at the beginning, it gives me an opportunity to delve deeper into a sport, to learn more about it. Because I might know the rules and I might know who's won the recent titles. I might know this, that, and the other. And basketball is a really good example of that. I don't know about the history and I don't know about the people.

But I'm really pleased this podcast has given me an opportunity to learn about Bill Russell. Because Bill Russell, anyone who knows anything about basketball will already know this. Bill Russell is an extraordinary man. Yeah, he's a cool dude. Not just a brilliant basketball player, but not just a brilliant team player, not just a winner. No one has more rings than Bill Russell does. He has more rings than he has fingers, famously. Good stat. Not only that, just an incredible

man. Started playing professional basketball in the 1950s at a time he was born in the South. and grew up in an era where Jim Crow was still a thing. That's separation and segregation laws. Basically, the southern states legally treating African Americans differently to how they treated white people. So that was obviously formed the basis for the civil rights movement in the 1960s predominantly. And Bill Russell was a massive part of that. This is a man who, he marched with

Martin Luther King. He stood. alongside muhammad ali he never backed down when faced with discrimination he was genuinely genuinely a leader a mentor pioneer and a winner he's honestly he's a guy he's a real legend he's also a very intelligent and well -spoken man and he's got a few books out and one of his books particularly second wind it's called is incredibly quotable like the guy has a lot of wisdom and i thoroughly recommend everyone dives into it as i said i

don't really have time to go into it today but but like you say yes we'll we'll end up doing a deep a deep dive i think we must do yeah like it would be a couple of basketball guys actually that we will and mj is one of them obviously but bill russell's going to be at the forefront of that list as well yeah when he was a child his family moved from the south to oakland california they moved west and that completely changed his childhood All of a sudden, things he was used

to, like having to use separate bathrooms and separate water fountains and things like that, as he used to in his youth, wasn't a thing anymore. He was in a place where he was, at least on paper, at least legally speaking, an equal, even if there was still discrimination everywhere. His prized possession as a child was his library card, and he immersed himself with reading and artwork. He's genuinely an incredibly intelligent

and well -read guy. It's not something you associate with people that go on, and I'm being awfully cliche about this and stereotypical, but not something that you associate with people that go on to be superstars of sports, right? No, absolutely not. And his intelligence, his basketball intelligence particularly, made him the player

he was. He had a difficult childhood. His family... were poor his mother died when he was 12 years old his heroes were Minneapolis Lakers center George Mikan who later described him as in he later described Russell as the best ever college player that he'd ever seen and his other hero was his father who went out and earned money for his family every day and taught him both to you know work ethic and also had to stand up for himself as well so as a high school player

he struggled initially Because he had physical talent, he had height and strength and physicality, but he had no foundation in the game or understanding of it. He'd never played before, before he went to high school. So this led to a lot of improvisation on his part. So he was sort of making up how to play the games he went along and he had coaches trying to coach him out of it. But he stuck with it and he was convinced that his way was the best way. And now people coach people how to

do it his way. Like he kept doing the things that you do. The coach has always said you have to plant your feet when you're in defence. He wanted to try and jump and time his jumps to get blocks in and to have more range when he does it. And that's how they coach defence now. He's genuinely a trailblazer. He was absolutely desperate for scholarship to try and escape. Essentially, a life as a dock worker would be the life in front of him if he didn't get himself

a basketball scholarship. And he was by no means an utterly dominant and well -known high school player. He was only scouted in his last ever high school game and the scout was there to watch an opponent. The scout's name was Halder Julio and he was underwhelmed by Russell's fundamentals and his scoring ability which he lacked considerably even during his professional career. But he sensed in him an incredible instinct for the game especially in clutch moments. He was raw, relatively uncoached

but he took a chance on him. So it just goes to show how close history comes and how many times this might have happened to people in the past. They might have had potential to be wonderful, but there wasn't a Hal DiGiulio there to scout them. Wrong sport, but that just brings the quote from... well, I say it's a quote, I mean, it's a dramatization, but Billy Bean in Moneyball.

Yeah. When he faces off with the scouts and he goes, the number of times I've sat across the table with you from a young man and his family and you always tell them the same thing when I know, I know, and you don't, and you don't. And like, so like, yeah, yeah, what I'm getting at is this is like the converse, like the, of

that, right, the converse of it. Well, I mean, he was the only scout who, he was the only scout who, ever noticed him and there would have been plenty of other scouts before him who had seen them and not noticed yeah yeah that's my point so that was if if if DiGiulio had decided to go to a different game that day or if he'd have been hyper focused on just the player he was there to see and not not everyone else around him we might never have heard of Bill Russell's

name which is incredible he's a legend of the game that is a sliding doors moment of sports history it is incredible But not even just that, because he was recommended to San Francisco University, whose coach was called Phil Wolpert. And Phil Wolpert was known for deploying his players equally, as in based on their talent, based on merit, rather than their skin color. And as you can imagine in the 1950s, that wasn't that common. There was a lot of, there was a sort of unofficial

quota. Like even in the NBA, you could have, unofficially, you could have one black player. Couldn't have two. Certainly couldn't have three

on the court at one time. And Phil Wolpert was the first NCAA, NCAA coach ever to deploy three black players on the court at once which was Russell, a man called Hal Perry and Casey Jones and Casey Jones also is a member of the Triple Crown of basketball because Casey Jones by chance almost followed Bill Russell's career exactly, he was a teammate of him one of his key teammates he became teammate at Boston won eight rings as a player later won two as an assistant and

two as a head coach and as you can imagine very much in the hall of fame and he played on the Olympic team with Russell so while they were at college together they pioneered a move as well which is now known as the alley -oop which is where one player passes and another player already in the air catches and slam dunks it or lays up but it's always better with a slam dunk at the end Yeah, Russell saw college as his way out of poverty, away from racism, and

vowed to give it everything he could. He sucked in his freshman year, basketball -wise, but he wasn't on varsity at that point. He was just sort of in the B team, essentially, in a developmental team. Yes. But he gave him a chance to work on his skills there, and by the time he reached his junior year, his third year of college, he burst onto the scene, and back -to -back his last two years of college. His team won NCAA championships and winning 55 matches in a row

doing so. He was so good. Bill Russell was so good by this point, the rules were changed to make defending the basket harder. And there's a few players in history that's been done for. One of them is George Mikan, the guy I mentioned who was his hero, who was another 6 '10 centre. That was a goaltending rule. And another one was Lou Alcindor. for whom dunking was banned. And Lou Alcindor is better known by a different name, and you've already mentioned him. Yeah.

Kareem Abdul -Jabbar. Yeah. They banned dunking because of him for a few years in college basketball, which is insane when you think about basketball as a sport. Especially as also, like, now they've sort of realised that dunking is cool. Oh, it's the best. They have a dunk contest, for goodness sake. Yeah. So he was very heavily influenced by... the Civil Rights Movement's 1955, particularly Emmett Till, Rosa Parks. Anyone who knows about the Civil Rights Movement will know about their

stories. I won't get into details with them now, but Emmett Till was a young man, 14 years old, who was essentially lynched for wolf whistling at a white woman, which is a horrible story. I recommend you look at it. It is such a key story in the history of America, and I strongly recommend people read up on that. He faced racism, as you can imagine, during his career at college and in the professional game. But he said, I never permitted myself to be the victim. And

it always drove him on. He should have won the college player of the year in his final season, but a blonde white man won it instead. Oh, that's weird. For reasons I'm sure you can imagine. No, no, it's a mystery, mate. It's a mystery. I tell you, this guy's quotable. This is what he said. Russell said, well... That lets me know that if I were to accept these as the final judges of my career, I would die a bitter old man, referring to the people on the selection panel, which I

think is a great quote. That is a good quote. So, as I mentioned, he won Olympic gold in 1956, before he was drafted. That was back in the days where the Olympics were completely amateur, so college players were in the team. He was also an Olympic standard high jumper, and he tied in a 1956 collegiate event with Charles Dumas. who actually went on to win 1956 Olympic gold. But he was only allowed to do one sport, so he chose basketball, which I think was probably

a sensible option. Yeah, good call. I would say on the spectrum of sporting prestige, basketball is higher than high jump. Yes. He was invited to play for the Harlem Globetrotters after college, but he was enraged that the Globetrotters owner, Abe Saperstein, would only communicate the request with his coach, Walpert, and not with him directly due to his race. Of course. Yep. Told him to sling his hook. Good for him. So he made himself

eligible for the 1956 draft. So Red Auerbach, who was a Hall of Fame coach of the Boston Celtics, set his sights on Russell, fancying that his defensive talents were the missing piece in the Celtics puzzle, correctly. They were a good team, so they had a low draft pick, so he had to do some trading magic. to get him, trading six -time All -Star centre Ed McCauley and a future five -time All -Star and Hall of Famer Cliff Hagen.

So two Halls of Famers with 11 All -Star appearances between them, and it still turned out to be a bargain. They also drafted Casey Jones lower down, so reuniting those two. With them, in the very first season, turned the Celtics from an almost team into perennial champions. Right,

so an unstoppable team. unstoppable force they perfected the hey bill defensive system wherein anyone struggling defensively would simply yell hey bill and russell would use his speed to rush over and double team them so you do that all game long pretty simple yeah it's a bit like the um like give the ball to messy mantra yeah and probably just as effective so wilt chamberlain wilt chamberlain was a player who unlike almost had the complete opposite career path to Russell

to the top where Russell had to he had no experience in basketball wasn't even fancy till his last game at high school took him a while at college to get going Wilt Chamberlain was from the age of about 13 or 14 years old was one of the most famous young basketball players in the country he played high school games against teams like exhibition matches against teams with NBA All -star players. I think the NBA MVP played him

and got made to look average against him. Walt Chamberlain was 7 '1", I think he was, in shoes. A massive man. Bill Russell was 6 '10", but he towered even over Bill Russell. Can I tell the funny story about him being tall in the lift? Please do. I may say it's not my story. Obviously, I've just seen someone else telling it. Kareem Abdul -Jabbar. Is it on documentary? I can't remember what it's called. It's his story, yeah.

Yeah, when he says he was in a lift with him and someone asked, I guess a stranger who's in the lift just asked him, what's the weather like up there? Classic, unimaginative, silly little joke at the expense of the tall person. And Will Chamberlain just spat on him and said, it's raining. I mean... I mean, Will Chamberlain's about seven inches taller than me, and I've been asked that question a few times, and it does get annoying, but I've never spat in anyone's head. Maybe I

should. Maybe next time I will. Probably stop people asking, or at least that person. Yeah, and certainly wouldn't ask twice. So, I mean, the difference between Chamberlain and Russell's upbringing, the difference between their expectations, the difference between the way they went about the game was vast. Will Chamberlain was the ultimate record chaser, I guess you could call him. He wanted to be the top scorer. He wanted these records. He wanted to have his name up in lights.

He became a better team player as he got older, but certainly in his younger days, he was all about chasing records and famously got the ultimate record. 1962, he averaged 50 .4 points per game during the season, which is frankly ludicrous, but that average included a 100 -point game. which is incredible. Playing for the Philadelphia Warriors. So he always complained that he didn't have the teammates. He said if he had the teammates that Bill had had, he'd have got the rings, but

he didn't. I think that's probably fair, though. The Celtics were... The only people that really beat them were Chamberlain. Yeah, the only... So in a 13 -year career, Bill Russell won 11 rings, including eight in a row, which is incredible. The only exception to that... There was, I think, 1958 and 1967. In 1967, it was Wilt Chamberlain playing for the Philadelphia 76ers at that point because the Warriors had moved to San Francisco.

They're now the Golden State Warriors. They were the San Francisco Warriors, but he got then traded back to Philadelphia to the Philadelphia 76ers, and then he won a title with them, Chamberlain. However, so they played each other. I'll go through their numbers. So they played each other 94 times. The final was 57 -37 to Russell. Played each other in 49 playoff games, which just tells you everything you need to know about how good they were. Yeah, how often they came head -to -head.

And Russell won them 29 -20 for an 86 -57 total. But it was 7 -1 in post -season series. The only one, that exception, was that 1967 championship game. So I'm going to talk about the 1969 championship. Actually, I'm going to say one thing first. Wilt Chamberlain was the first $100 ,000 a year contract in the NBA. So hearing this, Bill Russell immediately went to his management and got a $100 ,001 contract signed up, which I think tells you everything

you need to know about the... It sounds petty. I don't want to use the word rivalry for a reason. Yeah, so this is the point I was going to very quickly make. That sounds petty, but these guys are actually really good friends, and they were lifelong friends, and they didn't like to be referred to as rivals for that reason. I think they called each other competitors, and it's exactly the sort of thing I'd do to you. It is. It is exactly the sort of thing I would do to

you, just so I can... Because you've jumped the gun a little bit for me, but I'm going to say this to you. The guys were mates. They were friends. This is a time... An important context of this is this is a time when the NBA was still predominantly white. There weren't that many black players in the NBA, even at this point, even though two of the best players in the league were black players, which meant that this is still a time as well, certainly at the beginning of their

career, in the early 60s and late 50s. This is a time where you couldn't eat in certain restaurants if you were black. You couldn't visit certain establishments if you were black. So what happened generally is whenever they had a road game at the other one's homes, whenever they traveled to play the other one, they'd be the ones picking them up at the airport, the other one up at the airport. They'd stay at their home. They'd eat

their food. They'd chat to their wives. genuinely mate and they only fell out once at the end of the career for a reason I'll get to but they later made up again they used to do interviews together in the 80s talk about the game and when Wilt Chamberlain died in 1999 it was Bill Russell who gave his eulogy saying Wilt and I were not rivals we were competitors you see in a rivalry there's a victor and a vanquished and he was never vanquished that wasn't a eulogy that was

something you said later but I just I think that's a lovely quote that is a lovely quote I think also I read somewhere that When Chamberlain died, his nephew said that Bill Russell was the second person whom he was ordered to inform, presumably after Wilt Chamberlain's wife or someone else. Yeah, that just puts it into perspective. These guys were proper tight mates. Yeah, it's incredible.

So I'm just going to talk quickly about the 1969 NBA Finals because it's, as we mentioned, The dominant team throughout the 1960s by far were the Boston Celtics, probably the most dominant team that the NBA has ever had, winning 10 titles in 12 years at this point, with Bill Russell at the fore of it. So by this point, I should mention, Wilt Chamberlain had moved to the Los Angeles Lakers. Obviously, Russell was still with the Boston Celtics. The Lakers versus Celtics

is the most... The most played final matchup in NBA history, 12 times. No one else is close. No one else is even in the same ballpark. 35 titles between them, 18 to 17 to the Celtics as of last year. I was going to say, Celtics are the holders, aren't they? Yeah. 45 % of all titles have been won by those two teams. They are miles ahead of third, which is Golden State, who have seven. And that's only recently. Yeah, most of them in the past decade, yeah. Yeah,

exactly. So at this point, though, 1969, there was Lakers players who'd lost multiple finals. Only Wilt in the team had won one because he'd won one in the 76ers before joining the Lakers. But this was a different Celtics team. Stars like Bob Cousy, Bill Sharman had retired. Bill Russell and Sam Jones remained, but both were

due to retire at the end of the series. They had John Havlicek, who was a key man, but the Lakers had Jerry West, who's famously the man on the symbol for the NBA, the man on the logo, the guy dribbling. That's Jerry West. And they had Wilt Chamberlain, Elgin Baylor, all in their prime. So the Lakers were the favourites. They'd won the West while Celtics scraped in the fourth and final playoff spot in the East. And the Lakers

strode to the final. The Celtics got there, finding a bit of youthful energy to get themselves to the final, which was impressive. but the Lakers obviously had home court advantage with a better record. Chamberlain had mainly been playing a team role. As I said, he got better team players. His defending and his rebounding arguably was maybe not as good as Russell. I think Russell generally gets credit for being better because he was a bit more proactive with his defending.

He would spark fast breaks. He would defend in a way that he had full control of the situation, whereas Chamberlain would just get blocks. get his hand in and block stuff and whatever. Do enough. Stat -wise, his blocks and his rebound were better than Russell's. I mean, obviously it helps him being a literal giant, but nevertheless, he had talent defensively. So he was playing more of a defensive role. He'd still average 21 points per game in the season, but Jerry West

and Elgin Baylor were ahead of him on that. But between them, obviously they were a hell of an offensive trio. So it went with home court advantage for the first six games. So it was free all. going into game seven. The Lakers came within seven seconds of breaking that though in game four. So with seven seconds left, Russell benched himself. I should point out as well, by this point, Bill Russell was coaching. Yeah, player manager. Boston Celtics as well as players. Player

manager, yeah, essentially. He'd been doing that for three years. Had already won a title as a coach the year before. Now was in that position again. So he benched himself. Just quickly, Jack. For anybody who is American who thinks, he wasn't the general manager, you idiot. He was the coach. That was a football reference. A soccer reference.

A soccer reference, yeah. Sorry. So the player manager is what one would call a... head coach of a soccer team who's also the player on the team, which is a lot rarer nowadays than it used to be. In fact, barely ever happens anymore unless he's a caretaker role. Indeed. Anyway, so yeah, seven seconds left of game four. Russell had benched himself because he considered himself to be a poor free -throw shooter, which he was, to be fair. He was a poor shooter all round,

actually. His points per game was fairly poor throughout his career, but his defensive game obviously made up for that. Sam Jones, in possession for the winning shot, slipped and somehow got a shot off the bouncing off the rim. He later admitted that it was a lucky shot, the no -need slip, the aim to get it somewhere near the basket to give Bill Russell a shot at the rebound. He hadn't realised that Bill Russell had taken himself off at this point. So on such margins, a series

won and lost, or rings won and lost. Sometimes you've got to throw up a prayer. Sometimes you do. So it went to game seven. one of the most legendary Game 7s of all time. So the owner of the Lakers was a man called Jack Kent Cook. He'd had balloons emblazoned with world champion Lakers hung in nets around the forum rafters, because obviously Game 7 was in Los Angeles. He'd already planned for a USC marching band to play Happy Days Are Here Again as soon as the game ended,

anticipating a Lakers win. There were flyers laid out in every seat, ready to be held up for a Lakers win. And unsurprisingly, Bill Russell found out about this and used it as a motivational tool, as you can imagine, for the Celtics. And this is another classic Bill Russell quote. Those fucking balloons are staying up there. Which I like. I like that as well. To the point. I think he probably said it a lot cooler than I

did, but nevertheless, great quote. You mean you don't have the charisma of one of the greatest basketball players that ever lived? You know what? Probably not. I can concede that. So there's an ongoing feud between Chamberlain and his coach, who is Butch Vanbray de Kulf. I'm not going to say that again. Just Chamberlain's coach. You're getting better at the pronunciations. I'm not getting better at the pronunciations, Ben. Thank you for that. My French pronunciation especially

is bad, although that's Dutch, I think. I've got to encourage you. We're in this together. Yeah, we win together, we lose together. So yeah, he'd fallen out of his coach. VBK, as I'm going to call him, preferring a domineering coaching style, which had worked in college, but obviously grated on NBA superstars. Russell, as coach,

understood the Lakers' vulnerabilities. Jerry West had a hamstring injury at this point, and they had a poor guard rotation, so he ordered the Celtics to push with pace and relentless fast breaks. Celtics ended up leading throughout most of the game. Early in the fourth, Chamberlain had picked up his fifth foul. For those of you who don't know, you can get fouled out in basketball. If you get six fouls during a match, that's your game done. You have to go back to the bench at

that point. So he had five fouls at this point. He never fouled out a game in his career. He could do that in the Association of Football sometimes. Get rid of this systematic fouling. You can have a sub, but you can fuck off and get off on the bench. It's very subjective to the referee's opinion in football, as in persistent fouling will get you a yellow card, but that's

up to the referee to be the judge of that. So he obviously was on five fouls, but also Russell was on five fouls and Sam Jones was on five fouls. That massively hampered, more than anything, Russell's ability to defend Chamberlain because one more foul and he's out. There were seven minutes left. Lakers got a break they needed when Jerry West drew a foul on Sam Jones. So that ended his game, it ended his series, and it ended his Hall of Fame career. That was the

last action of his game. But he got a standing ovation from both sets of fans on his way out, which is nice because he's another Hall of Famer. So just over five minutes remaining, Celtics up by nine points. Wilt went up for a rebound but came down limping. He went to the bench with a knee injury. He claimed later... that he hit his knee coming down, although footage from it

doesn't actually show that. It doesn't obviously rule out a tweak making him think he struck something, but nevertheless, he tried to resume, but it appeared he could barely walk through. It's a bit fucking bold to accuse a geezer of lying. I'm not accusing him of lying. No, not you. But this is relevant. The narrative, that feels the most improbable likelihood. I think it's game seven is the point, and this is relevant, because... This is relevant with Bill Russell. He was benched.

Backup centre Mel Counts admirably steadied the Lakers and they surged to close the gap to just a point with two minutes left. Chamberlain at this point told his coach that he was ready to return. The coach, in a stunning moment of pride or stubbornness, refused, saying, we're doing just fine without you. It was the coach's final game coaching the Lakers. This may well be a

considerable factor towards that. To be fair to the coach, to give him a bit of defence, Counts had fouls to give and Chamberlain didn't and there was only two minutes left on the clock. However, as time ticked on and they needed points, that argument began to wane a little bit. Boston were four points up late in the game. Lakers got the last score, but it wasn't enough. The game ended 108 -106 with Chamberlain sat on the sidelines. Benched by the coach at this point.

And the Celtics have won the 1969 NBA Finals. The balloons never fell. They were the first team to come back from a 2 -0 deficit to win the championship. It was Russell's 11th and final title in his final ever NBA game. The first ever Finals MVP award was given that year as well. And it was given to Jerry West, who remains the only player to win the award from a losing side, even to this day. West, who's another Hall of Famer and legend, considered retirement after

the game. Such was the pain of losing the series. He didn't. And he won his first title in 1972, so it was a good job he didn't. First and only title, I think it was. But as we mentioned, they were friends. They were massive friends, Wilt and Russell. But the first time they fell out, first and only time they fell out, was not long after this. Russell was at a university, and he was speaking to some students, but he was unaware that there was a reporter in the crowd

writing down his every word. He never forgave, basically he said he could never forgive Chamberlain for the moment of going off during that game. He said that any injury short of a broken leg or broken back isn't good enough to go off during game seven. I think it's obviously, it's a question of respect for your friend and respect for the game, I think more than anything. I don't know if it's a personal thing in that he wanted to

beat the best. He wanted to be the best by beating the best and he thought that Chamberlain had worked him at the moment. Yeah, but it's probably

also born out of frustration. you know rather than like disappointment frustration as opposed to actually thinking that he's like a bottler it's probably more just like you know could you have what if how would that have ended like I suppose when you've already won 10 rings would you rather win 10 rings and see your mate score the winning point in the last minute when you know he's capable of it or would you rather win that 11th ring and Less than perfect circumstances.

Yeah, you're up for the fight, aren't you? I mean, he's a winner. He's a winner, so he obviously wants to win, but he doesn't want to win properly. But if you won that many, then you might as well win some good ones, right? Yeah, and it was his last ever game as well. So yeah, it kind of shattered their friendship. It was a while without a word between them, but later they reconciled. They were in a room together just for some event or

some broadcast or something like that. Russell went over to Chamberlain and he just said, I'm sorry for what I said. And that was it. That was all. That's all that was needed. That's all that was needed. That's really cool. I mean, two really interesting guys who dominated an era of the sport just before it exploded, really. Probably fed quite heavily into, you know, the tone. They set the scene for Kareem Abdul -Jabbar, certainly. And then, obviously, it became massive

because of Bird and Magic. And they were just... legend of the sport and you and i was saying um before we started recording that uh that's one of the unique features of basketball isn't it is that it's it's defined by the individuals more than than most team sports perhaps even any it's it's easier to define it by the individual i mean football is not dissimilar i mean football you have obviously 11 players in the team maybe 18 25 in the squad maybe even less than that

depending on the era uh basketball five players starting, maybe ten players realistically on rotation, maybe six. Six who we use for most of the game. You might have a sixth man, might even have a seventh man. More so nowadays. There's more levels of rotation. But back in those days, five or six players who played the vast majority of the minutes and it's obviously very easy to be an individual in that sport and to dominate

as an individual. Dominate as a team, dominate with a couple of good individuals and then some good filler around. But you can also associate your team's success more directly to the talent of the individual. Oh, yeah. In a way that you can't in football, rugby, hockey, cricket, certainly. No, you can point to a single 1984 draft and think, has anyone in those first two picks been

sensible enough to pick? jordan yeah had a brain yeah how different the league would have been because chicago would not have won six titles in the 1990s had they not drafted michael jordan no yeah yeah and like and and i think that's what's interesting about this sport and i think that's why we've enjoyed talking about these two guys and it's probably why we're gonna obviously we're gonna talk a little bit about jordan as well But we could also, you know, there's plenty

of others you could talk about. We could talk about Bird. We could talk about Magic. We could talk about Shaq. We could talk about Kobe. We could talk about Curry. or LeBron even, I haven't mentioned. I know you can list greats off in any sport, but these guys are all winners. They're not just someone that you consider to be good. They're all multiple winners and they're all directly responsible for era -defining success

for their franchise. I think it's notable. I know this only seems like a minor thing, but I think it's notable that you basically just single -named all of those people. But even people who aren't massively keen on basketball will know who Kobe is, will know who Shaq is, will know who LeBron is. Very good observation, mate. Or Magic, or Larry. Because that's the point,

isn't it? You've nailed it, really, is that we conceded at the beginning of this episode that we're not conventional enthusiasts of basketball, but yet I know every good player from every era. Well, certainly a lot of them, yeah. And I think the era we're in now is an interesting one. We say there's parity. There's no overall superstar

to the same extent there was. Obviously, LeBron is... still very old at this point yeah incredibly still going but he's i mean there's plenty of people we could talk about uh we will talk about mj we're probably gonna talk about a couple of coaches but can i do something slightly radical can i talk about commissioner stern because yeah i i i was surprised when i saw this on your on your list but yeah please do yeah just only because like me and you are not friends of the establishment

as a rule of thumb um Quite the opposite, in fact, if anyone who listens to a Champions League episode will know. Yeah, and so I wouldn't ordinarily give someone in a corporate position kudos. Yeah, or a disproportionate amount of praise. And perhaps the only reason I'm doing so is because anyone who loves basketball will tell me that I'm an idiot and I don't know the full story and I'm just speaking from a position of ignorance. And that may be so, and that would be a fair critique

because I've only scratched the surface. He seems like a pivotal. It would be undeniable, even if I'm waxing too lyrical about this guy, to say that he wasn't a major influence in what the NBA has become and it wasn't built on the foundations he laid and the work that he then did over a 25 -year period. 30 years he was commissioner for, which is incredible. I mean, because he basically, the reason I bring him up is because he's responsible for a massive expansion of the

NBA. Commissioner from 84 to 2014. And in that time, he brought in the Charlotte Hornets, Miami Heat, Orlando Magic, Minnesota Timberwolves, who obviously we've been talking about earlier, and brought the total up to 27 teams. And then he also expanded into Canada and the Raptors, Toronto Raptors and the Vancouver Grizzlies were brought into the league. And there's one other that's missing, and I can't remember who it is, but the total's now 30, as we mentioned at the

beginning. Do you know who it is? Can you do the deduction? New Orleans Pelicans. Ah, yes. Very well done. The thing that I thought was really cool, and I think is actually genuinely innovative, and to his credit, is what he stopped doing was he stopped marketing the league's teams. And he turned the focus onto his star players. We've just illustrated the efficacy of that ourselves,

just in general conversation. But effectively, he made your Johnsons, your Byrds, your Jordans, your Barclays, the stars of the show, and used that change in marketing strategy to expand the game internationally, most notably through the development of the Dream Team. the 1992 US Olympic team. And Stern was a big, big factor in influencing

the IOC. I think it was to allow professional players from the NBA to participate in the Olympics because obviously it's famously, the Olympics itself is famously amateur as a rule of thumb. Although that is obviously not the modern Olympics as you and I recognize it. Not anymore, no. But it was until the 80s. Yeah. And it still is in certain sports. It's just that others have adapted because they realize that it's necessary to have

them in there. A lot of this is built on marketing, but it's with the players at the heart of it. Which is the right thing to do. We've already shown that it is a player -driven sport. And he got that. Yeah, and that led to commercial agreements with the likes of Nike and television rights domestically and internationally. That's

the reason the NBA blew up. But he's also responsible for some other things that I think are... noteworthy and at least to his credit even if I'm perhaps attributing too much goodwill to him but he publicly supported Magic Johnson when he revealed that he was HIV positive in 1991 and that the reason I mentioned that is because that was during a period of time where that virus was just demonized and subject to a lot of rumor it's significant like for anyone who knows much about the AIDS

crisis The ignorance behind it was one of the key factors in the spread of it and the delay in reasonable treatments being developed, which obviously have been developed now. And it's now not a death sentence as it was at the time. And one of the big driving forces behind that was prominent people getting it. Freddie Mercury being one example and Magic Johnson being another example, testing HIV positive in 1991. It brought

it to the public's attention. Magic Johnson particularly being a heterosexual sportsman and not fitting the bill of the stereotype of someone who would get the disease made a big difference. They said that only homosexuals and drug abusers effectively got it. That was essentially the narrative at the time. And it was wholly misplaced, ignorant, as you say, irresponsible. You can frame it however you like. It was stupid. But Stern did what, you know, what any other level -headed decent

person would do. And he read the medical literature, consulted experts. And he's effectively credited with informing league owners and players and sponsors and the public more generally because of the reach of the NBA. And it also just had a tangential impact, which I... the way these things do for the better. It introduced player safety protocols, so you're not allowed to play when you're bleeding, those sorts of things.

Kind of similar, not the same, but kind of similar to the sort of stuff we talk about with CTE and concussion and head injuries. Just like proper informed analysis leading to improvements. Yeah, on the back of expert opinion, not on the back

of vibes. yeah or emotional decision making bad vibes as well um yes yeah and he also he did other good things like he enormously improved anti -doping measures in the sport obviously the 80s is famously dope heavy and we'll probably touch on that a lot more in like cycling and athletics and stuff when when they come around but yeah he uh he pushed that forward in basketball uh and he also advocated for the one and done rule uh which is the the minimum age for entry

into the to the draft i think yeah 19 years old yeah you get you get one so you had to do at least a year of college yeah before you could get drafted to stop people being drafted directly out of high school which was very common there's actually a history to this like that the you used to have to do your full college four years Or at least wait until your graduating class is done. Because this actually caught Wilt Chamberlain

out. Wilt Chamberlain wanted to go pro early because he was so dominant in college ball and so ready to make some money that he wanted to go. So he quit college after three years, but he wasn't allowed to be drafted for the NBA for a year. So he did go off and play a year for the Holland Globetrotters, including touring the Soviet Union. And he made like $50 ,000 from

it. Nice. But then they scrapped that rule. There was a series of like... legal challenges to that which they ended up scrapping it and a couple of 18 year olds got drafted straight out of high school but then it was 20 years before anyone else did but then it really kicked off in the in the 90s I think Shaq and Kobe and that generation so many of them LeBron as well drafted straight out of high school 18 years old don't get me wrong they've gone on to do good things but there's

a lot to be said for an education and a bit of extra coaching yeah and a year an extra year to grow because you're not really fully grown at the age of 18 a lot of time well and also even though these are big guys you go from you go from no money to big lucrative contracts as well and yeah and that sort of thing and look you know as long as you've got good people around you i guess it doesn't really make any difference but i think that was his motivation for it because

stern stern was on record as saying if these kids have the ability to get a little bit more maturity, a little more coaching, a little bit more experience overall, that's good. And that reference, I know why you're humming is because the terminology these kids was taken as a condescending reference to young black men. Pissed a lot of

people off, which I think is fair enough. And he also had, he introduced dress code, which Allen Iverson famously said, it was a deliberate attempt to target people who dress like me, who dress like hip hop. So he's not, this guy's not perfect. No, it strikes me as just a little bit similar to the NFL, you know, with the celebrations. Yes. We've talked about before. Yes, yes, yes. And this is America. I'm not sure we've talked

about it here before, but we have. It's a white conservative place, ultimately, even to this day. Just better than it used to be. Or at least at this point was better than it used to be. I'm not sure about now. But anyway, we digress. And he was actually accused at one point of being a modern day plantation owner, which I think was... understood to be more of a dig at the white leadership of the league compared to the predominantly black player rosters rather than

him acting in that way. White people making a lot of money off the labour of black people, essentially. Would I presume be the comparison there? The implication here is that and I think the reason I'm stating this as overtly as I am is that there was sort of like a racial undertone

to some of this. I think that that would be a misrepresentation to be honest because whilst he was an imperfect man I think on balance he probably got more right for the league than he got wrong and a lot of African -American players got opportunities under his stewardship that they would not have had otherwise and that's not to say that they wouldn't have deserved it and the system he implemented shouldn't have been you know he's some sort of like oracle for

having done it that's not what I'm saying but like it'd be very It's a juxtaposition to argue that this man had a problem with black people, given how much he championed their success. No, he's just an old white guy. Yeah. And anyway, to give that some independent flavor, as opposed to the musings of my mind, LeBron, Michael Jordan. Magic, Kobe, who actually ended up dying 25 days later in his well -documented and ill -fated helicopter journey. They all attended his funeral

and mourned him. He was an innovator. Basketball definitely wouldn't be where it is without him. No. Yeah. He did oversee six relocations, which really fucking annoyed people, as you might imagine. I know, but it's American sport. It's a systemic problem. Two lockouts, the only two in NBA's history, occurred under his stewardship as well, basically because he was a brutal negotiator. I think that's when they made the plantation reference. But yeah, anyway, I just thought it

was interesting. I thought that was a context that is not often seen in other sports. You don't usually see one sort of corporate figurehead having such a major impact on the development of a league. Yeah. and not pissing everyone off in the process. It's a bit similar probably to, not quite with the same sort of, some of the same undertones, but Pete Rizal a little bit

in the NFL was very well respected. He was NFL commissioner for a long time and made a huge change to that league in a way that current Roger Goodall leadership of the NFL probably won't be celebrated quite so much in the end. But anyway. Won't be revered. Yes. Unlike. A man who will always be revered forever and ever. Getting back to the players. You've been poised. You've been vibrating wanting to talk about this man. Since day one of this podcast. Michael Jordan. This

is a guy that I idolise. He's putting it too high. Because I don't watch the sport enough. I think he's someone that just fascinates me. And engages me. He transcends this. He really does transcend this sport. You say this about a few people. But he is just... Bigger than basketball. He is just like Tiger Woods. Yeah, Usain Bolt. Very comfortable. Muhammad Ali. Yeah. That's

the company this man is keeping. I mean, anybody who's seen The Last Dance and anyone who has a Netflix subscription, which is basically every single person, I presume. I thought you were going to say Space Jam for a second there. Anyone who's seen Space Jam will know how good he is.

I mean, the fact that he carries a cartoon movie is the only... human being in it for the majority of it does kind of tell its own story but um it holds up i watched it not long ago it holds up it's a good film like anybody's seen the last dance we'll know really what i'm talking about here we're talking about the talent the aura the mentality i mean the mentality is scarcely comprehensible like terminator the terminator it it's it's a absolute Lack of acceptance in

anything but 100%, anything but the best possible performance in himself and his teammates. On the court and in training. What you said about himself and his teammates, I think that's perfect actually. Because you were talking about Wilt Chamberlain earlier and saying how maybe his shortcoming was that, at least for a chunk of his career, he was in it for himself to a certain extent. MJ is not that guy. This is the ultimate

team player. It's a bit similar to Wayne Gretzky and the understanding that you can't win by yourself. Even in a six people on the ice at once, five people on the court at once, you can't win by yourself. Otherwise, you'll just get double teamed six ways to Sunday, which MJ was early in his career a lot. You need those players around you so people have someone else to worry about. People are creating the space for you, creating the, you know, setting the screens for you, wherever

else you need. Here's a couple of quotes from people. I just love this, right? So, Kobe called him Black Jesus. Like Kobe Bryant. Solid start. Yeah. Shaq said, you don't want to mess with God. You have to stay away from Mike. Which I think is, like, again, the hyperbole here. Jesus, God. My favorite one, though, is from... Roy Williams, and this is in The Last Dance. I love this. Yeah, Roy Williams was his assistant coach

at college. And he said, Michael Jordan was the only player I ever saw who could turn it on and off whenever he wanted. And he never freaking turned it off. So good. That is such a great quote. And I also love the fact as well. I think I'm taking a lot from The Last Dance here for obvious reasons. In that show, they talk about when they go to Paris, and it was a preseason

friendly, and he just puts on a show. I don't know how many he scored, 40, 50 points or whatever, maybe 60 points, doesn't really matter, just shitloads of points, dominated the game, Bulls won. And there was a journo, I think it is, he's describing him in the show, and he says he understood that there would be someone in that audience, that crowd, who'd come to see him, and it would be the only time in their life that they would get to see Michael Jordan. And he was like, they

will get to see Michael Jordan. Not someone pretending to be him, not half -baked Michael Jordan. You got to see the man. Yeah. Yeah. It just makes me wonder how good he was. Like, the people spoke to speak of him in those terms. Like, this is elite level sport. The best of the best of the

best. He came to the forefront at a time where, obviously, on the back of like, larry and magic it was a time in the 90s where network television had really taken off like everyone had good tvs in their homes it's been beamed into every home in america these games live every game of this series every law games are in the season and every sort of playoff game was being beamed in so these legendary moments that people remember and they had vcrs they could record it and watch

it over and over again take the games like it's it's not quite the same as youtube levels or or you know other social media levels where you get the highlights immediately afterwards and you can watch it on repeat as much as you want but you you have that opportunity to a certain extent so it's not just like oh did you see the game last night oh no i didn't know well maybe you'll catch the highlights later it's like come over to my place and we'll watch the highlights

together we'll fast forward through you know the boring bits and we'll get to his shots and i just it's it's a time where it was ripe for someone like that to burst out and he just He was just huge. He was huge. I mean, his shoe is still going, like the brand. He's made more from that than he has an entire basketball career combined. He's made enough that he's sustained a very large gambling addiction, if you believe the press, for many a year without going broke,

which is impressive. Yeah, and I think he's on record of saying, you know, I just enjoy it. Like, I can afford it. Yeah, there was something like... people saying, oh, it's mad. He used to bet like $10 ,000 a game and someone would be like, well, work it out. Work out how much you earn in a year and how much Michael earns in a year and work out how much $10 ,000 is for him. It's like, that's like you betting 50 cents. Yeah. I mean, he's just a very, very, very wealthy

dude. I mean, it fascinates me that he didn't go one in the draft. I mean, he was very good at college. I don't know. I've not looked into the reason behind this. I don't know if there were reasons. I don't know of the two people who went ahead of him. Am I right in saying one of the two people who went ahead of him is also a Hall of Famer? Yes. There is one of the guys who turns out to be a very, very good player

as well. The film Air is quite good. Obviously, it's an exaggerated version of the story of through which Knight got their contract with him. In that, I think there's an interesting yarn or anecdote, I don't know how true it is, where they said that it brought to the attention of Nike Scout noticed him when at college basketball they had a really good player in his senior year who was dominating college basketball that year and the coach picked Jordan to throw the three

to win the game. Oh yeah, I remember that. And he was like, why do they throw it to the rookie? Unless he's unbelievable, basically. The rookie with ice in his veins. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, he went third in the 1984 draft, which I think is pretty insane. Yeah, six NBA titles. Bulls only ever won titles with him. They're fourth on the all -time list. All won by Jordan. Which

is mad. If anyone tries to tell you it was a great team, and it was, I guess, to undermine my own point, but if anyone tries to tell you it wasn't Jordan, it's just because they had a great team. Only Pippen won all six with him. Yeah, so the other pieces came and went. Yeah. And one man stayed. Nobody's won more NBA finals,

MVPs, six from six, 100%, 100 % win rate. The only player to have had a season in which they won the NBA finals, the NBA final MVP, the season MVP, the first team all NBA, the first team all defense, the scoring title, and the leading point scorer in the playoffs. And he did it four times. Excellent. So, yeah. And he did it all in 14 years. I think that's the other thing, because the guy fucked off and played baseball for a

bit. Which is weird. Yeah. And getting conspiracy theories about why he did that, that's not... I don't think we need to, but that's a... I mean, obviously, the death of his father had a huge impact on that. Yes. His father, who was shot in a... Was it a robbery gone wrong? Yeah, I think he was driving some long journey home or something, and he stopped for a nap, and someone tried to rob him whilst he was asleep, I think.

There we go. Yeah, and his dad always wanted him to play baseball, but even so, I guess he could. He wasn't shit at baseball. I guess that's what you can say about that. He wasn't shit. I mean, he got to, obviously, from the back of his name, he played AAA, I think, which is the level below the majors, and he hit 220 or something like that, which is pretty, you know, it's not going to get you into the majors, but he didn't embarrass himself. Yeah, I think that's all I

mean. Considering I couldn't just turn up at the minors now and even hit one of the balls, the fact that he just went from being a professional basketball player to playing in the minors I think is indicative of something. Talent is talent, isn't it? Yeah. Hand -eye coordination is transferable. And he's a guy that we'll do a deeper dive on,

so I don't want to dwell on it. But, yeah, I mean, I'm a big Michael fan, as probably anybody who loves sport is, because he epitomizes all the things that make sport fascinating to me in a single sportsman. Yeah, fair. I mean, we've spoken a lot about it. We've spoken about the commissioner, spoken about the players, we've spoken a bit about teams and the history. I mean, I guess just to complete the collection, we might as well give a mention in dispatches to some

coaches. Yeah, a little quick doff of our cap to a couple of them. One that is a legend and is probably the greatest man to ever do it, and then one who we just really love. Yeah, a man after our own heart and someone I think that me and you would probably love to meet. Love to have a beer with, yeah. Love to buy a beer for. And that man in particular actually also did win five rings alongside Michael Jordan playing

for the Bulls. He did. But we digress. We'll talk about the man who coached him to some of those first. He won three with the Bulls and two with the Spurs. He won five overall. Was it? Yeah. Yeah, Steve Kerr. Well, I tried. Steve Kerr. Yeah. But yeah, should we talk about, do you want to talk about Steve Kerr first or Phil Jackson first? Let's talk about Phil Jackson first, I think. Yeah, okay. You go. You go. You go. You take the lead. So just, again, more rings

than he has fingers in total. 11 -time NBA champ to go with two as a player as well for the Knicks, which is just ludicrous. Three -peat repeat with the Bulls. So two three -peats with the Bulls. With MJ Rodman, Pippen, Kerr. We haven't even mentioned Rodman, who was a madman. We haven't even mentioned Rodman. Another day. Ridiculous. Another day. Yeah. Yeah, sorry. Then he went to the Lakers, and almost immediately, this was a couple of years later, won five more with them,

including another free -peat. Kobe, Shaq, Derek Fisher. Just ridiculous. Ludicrous. Ludicrous. Two dominant teams. He also lost a couple of finals as well. Lost to the Pistons with the Lakers in 2004 and lost to the Celtics with the Lakers, another Celtics -Lakers matchup in 2008. But he has more postseason wins than anyone and he has more conference titles than anyone. Legend.

The thing that's really cool as well is between the 2000 and 2002 Lakers wins and then the 2009 and 2010 ones, he took a bit of time off after that Pistons win. I think he just fucked off into the sunset. After the Pistons defeat, sorry, in 2004. He just decided he was going to have a break and then he came back and was like, you know what, fuck it, I want a couple more. Yeah. I mean, that as a head coach to win 11 is... 11 over the course of what, 17 years? 17, 18

years? 18 probably total. That is incredible. Yeah. Most post -season wins, 229. Most conference

titles, 13. And obviously, cream rises. You're going to get the best jobs being the best coach, but... it is hard to win like it as much as we say you see the same teams dominating it's because they have all the pieces in place you always play a finals against a team who are at least you're equal or thereabouts you have to get over the line yeah well yeah that's true and I guess that like we can transition quite neatly onto I'm very glad that you picked Phil Jackson first

actually because it allows that transition to operate smoothly because Steve Kerr is a man who played under Phil Jackson at the Bulls he did with MJ And he is a nine -time NBA final winner, five as a player, as I was just saying earlier, three with the Bulls, two with the Spurs, and then four as a coach at Golden State, where he still is. Really interesting guy for reasons

that transcend basketball. He has a topic of conversation that I'm not going to shy away from a controversial topic of conversation when talking about an American sport, but his father was murdered in Lebanon in 1984. He was an academic and human rights activist working for the American University of Beirut. And as a result of that, Steve Kerr

is a big gun control advocate. Famously, in May 2022, during a press conference ahead of Game 4 of the Western Conference Finals against the Maverick, after that day's Robb Elementary School shooting in Texas where 19 children and two teachers were murdered and 17 others injured by a gunman wielding semi -automatic weapons. Kerr reiterated these points very emotionally and very clearly

and inspirationally in my humble opinion. So there was a filibuster going on at the time where Republicans in the US Senate were basically trying to kill a bill which may have benefited, may have made changes which would stop this kind of thing happening. He said that they were holding us hostage and using it to prevent a vote on gun control legislation and he's also spoken out against racial inequality as well. He's a great guy. He is a great guy. He is a great guy.

If anyone hasn't seen, you can see the interview. It will be on YouTube. The press conference. There's no faking it. There's no faking that. He's angry. He's angry. You would be. For something that you've given a shit about for the obvious reasons for 20 odd years. Sorry, 40 odd years. Since one of the most important people in your

life was killed by a gun. and seeing if anything can getting worse in that time not getting better seeing all these tragedies have zero positive consequences coming out of them can you blame me no i yeah we really like him mainly because you might as well not make a secret of it jack we don't like guns not not our not our favorite things like i i'm not going to get into that particular debate now i've i've spoken to i've spoken to Americans by that length in my many

travels to America and you can have some very reasonable conversations to people about guns but that doesn't seem to permeate to the top level of politics there's no sensible conversations to be had it is a right because it is in the constitution but Americans need to treat it more as a privilege and if you believe you are a safe gun owner well then what problem do you have with make sure everyone acts as responsible as you do basically is my summary of it yeah i mean

i'm not even going to get started because i'll just get annoyed um but i agree with all of your sentiments and i think steve kerr is a great advocate um for all the the arguments and the points that we make and we don't live in america it's not really our country you know we can't tell people how to live but it should be a fairly uncontroversial position to take but nonetheless it's not well how do we get out of a gun control hole I don't think we need to. I think we've

done a fine job today. That's how you get out of it. You just pat each other on the back and you say, job well done. Where can we watch it? Well, if you're in the UK, TNT Sports, which I don't have, but I can probably find it somewhere, shall we say. In Germany, how do you pronounce this? Is it DAZN? Is it D -A -Z -N? DAZN, I think. DAZN. Oh, yeah, that makes sense. DAZN, ProSieben, and the NBA TV International. TNT in Ireland, TV4 in Sweden, NowSports and NBA TV International

in Hong Kong. Wow, you have been thorough with this list. Well done, Ben. Well, mainly because we do see who listens and where they may be located. Ah, I see what you've done there. So I thought, thank you for coming back, guys, if you stuck with us through another episode. And I thought

I'd throw you a bone directly. yes so um yes as i mentioned we've got a few listeners around europe particularly and also in in the far east and other places and in america so yeah there we go thank you ben for i didn't even notice that but that's good um australia new zealand espn and america turn on the tv yeah yeah don't take the piss we know that you know and you know that we know that you know it's espn so don't try and hide it just just watch the nba finals

guys Cool. Well, that's this week. Where does life take us next week? So next week, we're finishing off something we started a couple of weeks ago now, which was the triple crown of motorsport. So for those of you who listened to our Monaco Grand Prix episode, and for those of you who listened to our Indy 500 bonus episode, we're finishing that off with the 24 Hours Le Mans

next week, which is on the 14th of June. and yeah there's a the reason we're doing that episode because we did had a change to our planned schedule we're going to do some cricket but we're now going to do some more motor racing because there was just such vast depth to Le Mans and the history of Le Mans is the history of motorsport and there's, shall we say, plenty of opportunities to cover cricket in the near future. Yes, there are. There

is a good summer over here. We're playing India, England that is, and it's also an Ashes year. So if you like cricket and you were wondering if we were going to cover the World Test Championships, don't be disappointed. Cricket is a coming. It is one of our favourite sports and it would be our wheelhouse. Yes. Sports we've played and watched for many a year. Badly, but yes. Watched well. I mean, you're better than me at cricket.

nice well should we leave it there i think so all right mate well um speak to you next week miss you already love you mate love you too bye -bye bye A huge, huge thank you once again for listening to the Sporting Almanac podcast. Can't say that enough. If you enjoyed it, give us a like, a subscribe, rate, comment, whatever it is to trigger those algorithms. But more important than algorithms, please tell your friends. There's no better form of advertising than word of mouth.

Our theme tune is Oh Yeah by Harmonia Productions. You can find us on Blue Sky and Instagram at at the Sporting Almanac or drop us an email at sportingalmanacpodcast .gmail .com. We'll see you next week at Le Mans for the 24 hours of Le Mans. Until then, please stay curious. sport is nothing without the stories that make it goodbye