On today's episode, Hardcore history meets hardcore college football. Welcome to the solid verbal hell.
That for me. I'm a man, I'm forty.
I've heard so many players say, well, I want to be happy. You want to be happy for a day?
Edith state is that woo woof? And Dan and Tye.
Welcome back to the Sole All boys and girls, My name is ty Hildebrandt. That fine gentleman over there as always the illustrious Dan Rubinstein, Sir, Welcome back to the show.
How goes it?
How are you can't complain? Ty just went on a Costco run. Not a sponsor could be. I always hesitate about dropping proper company names, but Costco started ubiquitous at this point. Took two little monsters to Costco. We ate our faces oft in life is good? Ty beautiful? Well, this show is good today. I'm excited about this show. We did it once last year in the build up to the season. We're doing it again today.
It is the hard Core History Crossover Episode.
Two point zero.
Dan Carlin, noted Colorado noted college football fan Dan Carlin is stopping on by. We reached out to him, wanted to bring him on. Look a lot's going on since we had him on a year ago, with respect to Colorado, with respect to Colorado's now old conference defunct conference, just college football as a whole wanted to bring Dan back on just as like a nice little appetizer to the season head.
So we've got a terrible Colorado season in the rearview mirror, hiring the biggest name in terms of flashiness and newsworthiness in this past recruiting cycle, and coach prime Dion Sanders. It's chewing a future, is shooting shooting a future in the Pac twelve for the Big twelve, Oh yeah, and still playing a lame duck season in the Pac twelve.
And the publicly claiming to be a Colorado football super fan tells you that the Man News is college football, because not everybody admits to something like that at this point in Colorado's history. So I love to hear it. I love to have Dan on the show and can't wait to talk to him before.
We get to the interview, though, Dan Breaking News, thank you for filling in for me as the voice is a little bit on the men. Dan, We've got our updated Patreon perks for this coming season. At long last, we finally rolled them out. Is there a website? There is a website. It's called for Bowlers dot com. Okay, if you were ever so incline.
Go and check it out.
It is the biggest overhaul since we launched this thing back in twenty twenty. We're super excited about it. You want to know what's different this year?
Very quickly.
I would love to first and foremost our weekly pick'em game run the board. We have super charged it with better prizes than ever before. The winner in week one gets a PlayStation five. Can you believe it?
Did?
I sign off of us? The winner gets a PlayStation five. Okay in week one. At least once each month we're gonna give away a similarly awesome prize to the winner. I'm not kidding. We beefed up the prizes this year on a weekly basis.
Yep.
It will be worth your while to play each and every week. Oh by the way, if you finish in the top five at the end of all fourteen weeks, you get a seat on our board of trustees. Yes, so you can basically play every week the entire season for twenty bucks if you're doing the math at home. Not a bad deal, especially if you're competing for cool prizes like a.
PS five in week one.
Hello for ballers dot com is where you can find out more. Also, you can listen to all of our episodes ad free. Nice. We're so excited that we can bring that to you the paying Patreon for baller Hood. Also, we have heard from you load and clear. You love to learn about schemes, As luck would have it, so do we. Yep, maybe we're not the ones to educate.
That's why we've enlisted the help of our good friend Jeff Schwartz, who is going to be stopping by every other week and putting together a special video that dissects the biggest plays in moments from the college football season. Our hope is that we can learn together about schemes with you, with yes, our good friend Jeff.
I like what you called it schemes. Even though it is schemes, it's technically totally true. But when you just say the words schemes, it's like you want to learn how to defraud an insurance company. Jeff Schwartz is here to tell you. I mean, who's to say x'es and o's football scheme talk? And he's what I'll tell you exactly.
What he's going to do.
Right, we can go into detail. Jeff is going to take a big game from the previous weekend and he's either going to look at a specific element of an offense or defense and be like, all right, here's the concept, these are the rules, this is why it exists, and here's how this team executed it super successfully to quash
the hopes and desires of the other team. And so he has done terrific things with x's and o's in both college and pro on video, and so that is going to be exclusive to to patrons on verballers dot Com.
That and possibly, we can't rule it out, some sort of frank abag nail check washing scheme.
Look, that's exactly where my mind went right when you said we're gonna have an expert on schemes.
Uh, you're also going to get access, extended access to the episode that we're putting out on Mondays. Yes, the bonus content that we've got on Thursday is going to be completely new. We're gonna be doing team spotlights, We're going to pop the hood on stats, break down rumors, all the things that we want to do more of but we haven't had the time to do during the season because we're recapping in previewing games and last but certainly not least, I mean, there's all sorts of perks. Now,
we really did reimagine this whole thing. But you can vote on the topics that we tackle next, you can vote in the Verballer Top ten. You get access to our discord. We're gonna be doing weekly rewatch alongs the biggest games of the previous week. We can do that on Discord. So just go on out to Verbalers dot com, v E R B A L L e r s dot com to check out the updated benefit tiers. But really put a lot into it, and we truly listened to your feedback. We took to heart, and I'm excited
about what we're doing this year. I think it's gonna be awesome.
Yeah, I think to expand on what you just said about empowering people to sort of come up with new segments and portions of the show, Essentially, there's going to be a select group of patrons on here that will be serving as segment producers, not telling us how to do our job, but also they will be acting as the angry townspeople with pitchforks and torches that say, you know what, now is the time to talk way more about Kansas State or Miszoo or Penn State or Texas
Tech or the fact that the Florida State job is open. Let's do an entire, huge, long segment about this, and Ty and I will say, Okay, sure, great, done, it's pretty cool.
Verballers dot com v E R B A L L E R S dot com. If nothing more, play for the PS five man.
Yeah, I really hope you just had promised a PlayStation and then I could have set my old PS. But alas you used the number five right there.
We probably should have talked about this before. I just sort of I just sort of went for it. But for Ballers dot Com, hope you can join us this season. You'll hear more about this over the next two weeks or so and throughout the season. Frankly, but Forballers dot Com one more time.
I guess you're a little bit you're burying the lead. We accepted the offer from Apple that the PAC twelve was unable to secure, and uh, we've bought a lot of PlayStation fives with that coin.
Ty. That is a perfect segue to our guest of honor today. He is the host of Hardcore History, of Course, our favorite history podcast. He's also a diehard Colorado Buffalo's fan who is gracious enough to come back here for a second tour of duty. Please to welcome back to the Soliverbal Dan Carlin, Sir.
How are you.
I'm well.
Thanks for having me. A lot's changed since the last time we spoke.
Yeah, I was gonna say so.
The last time we had you on, I think it was right after the news broke about USC and UCLA going to the Big Ten. We obviously talked about that and what it meant for college football fans as a whole. We had no way of knowing what will go down at Colorado. How are you dealing with all of this change in Boulder?
I'm adjusting, But you know, when you go one in eleven, everything looks hopeful from the one and eleven viewpoint. So so I'm very hopeful, is what I can say. It's really you know, I'm not a very flashy guy. I'm one of those guys that likes to see the old fashioned players who score a touchdown and hand the ball to the referee and all that, and that's not the game we have right now at Colorado, So I'm trying to adjust to a different sort of amount of flashiness
and energy. But at the same time, you know, I haven't had good reason to be hopeful in a while, so I'm enjoying that side of it, so exciting and hopeful.
So it says it right in your podcast description. You're a guy who prides himself on unorthodox thinking. How would you grade out the unorthodox methods of coach Prime so far?
Well, you know, it's funny because I mean, we all come from an era where what he just did, in terms of overhauling the roster wouldn't have even been possible. So when you talk about unorthodox thinking, this is unorthodox thinking on his part. And in terms of the rules, I mean the fact that you can do this and you may not be able to do this in the very near future. This is a narrow window where something like this is possible. But when you bring on I
think it's something like seventy new players. That's a complete transformation. And I know that USC and Oklahoma and some other schools have done let's call it a lighter version of this last year, so it's not totally unprecedented. But it's going to be very interesting to see all the questions that get answered, because when I read people who are critical of this, they'll talk about how long it might take to get these new players to gel and all that sort of stuff. But here's the way I look
at it. God blessed the people we had on the team when we were one and eleven. But this is a huge each talent upgrade, so I can't see this as anything other than a net positive. Now, maybe they don't gel, Maybe these players left the teams that they were on for some good reason, but we have to be better than what we had. So that's the way I'm looking at it.
How much are you consuming the Colorado football off season experience? Are you on social media? Are you watching behind the scenes YouTube videos? Are you finding yourself charmed by Dion Sanders? What what is your level of, let's say, consumption commitments to the Colorado football experience.
Yeah, listen, even when we're one and eleven, I'm over consuming all of the all of the media and hype and everything. But I have to say the funny thing about the Dion Sanders thing, if I can, if I can back up and sort of analyze myself from Afar is that he's a lot more likable when he's your coach. You know, It's like it's all of a sudden you kind of see the charm that maybe isn't so apparent when he's on the other sidelines or you know, on
the other team. So I'm beginning to I'm beginning to get the deon Sanders charm a little bit more than I did looking at him when he was a Florida State player, or a Dallas Cowboy player, or a forty nine er player or an Atlanta Falcons player. So so yeah, and I'm always consuming the stuff. There's obviously, with all of the in house media that he's brought, including his son doing a lot of the videos, there's more than
ever to consume. But you're talking to a guy that, back in the days before the Internet was subscribing to the newspapers they used to send to your house once a week, you know. So if I have a long history of over consuming and making my family think out crazy.
So Colorado leaves the PAC twelve and we'll get into realignment I'm sure more in a bit, But they leave the PAC twelve. Was this something that you were following in terms of, Oh, the PAC twelve is still looking for a new TV deal, as other conferences are growing, as the Big twelve is growing, as the Big Ten
is growing. Were you a proponent as somebody who you've already mentioned it's and you talked about it the last time you were on the show that you know you bemoaned the loss of Colorado Nebraska every season and bemoaned the loss of certain matchups and rivalries that Colorado was involved with. Were you done with the PAC twelve when all of the rumors began swirling? Where were you before, during and now with Colorado's move?
Well, like many PAC twelve members, I was paying attention because I was worried. You know, once UCLA and USC bolt that's the Los Angeles market, it was already a conference that was considered to be weaker than a lot of the other big conferences. So the last thing you want to potentially weak conference to do is lose two of their best members. So yeah, like everybody, I think we were worried, and I think you get this sneaking feeling. I don't think people in the Big ten get it.
I don't think people in the SEC get it, but other conferences have this feeling like, Okay, the game of musical chairs has started again, and is there going to be a chair to sit on for my team when the music stops? So yes, I was paying attention now in terms of what I wanted to have happened. Well, when Colorado moved to the Pac twelve from the Big Twelve,
it was sort of a nice novelty for me. I grew up in southern California, so that's Pack ten country when I was a kid, and so it seemed kind of fun to play a bunch of West Coast teams that I grew up watching. I think after a while you get tired of some of the teams you've been playing, although not Nebraska and Oklahoma and teams like that, but Nebraska was leaving too so that that option wasn't going to be available anyway, So it seemed like a fun difference.
It just happened to correspond to a time when Colorado football was suffering its worst stretch in the history of the of the program, which is over one hundred years. So that didn't work out very well for us going back. You know, if we were going back to the same conference, we left right in Nebraska, Oklahoma, those sorts of teams, I'd be very excited because I miss all those rivalries,
all the history. And you can say we have a long history with Iowa State and Kansas State and Kansas and we do, but it's not like Nebraska and Oklahoma and this in those same way. Ye, not in the state. Well, listen,
nothing gets me out of bed like Nebraska, right. But so I'm in another sense though, there's a part of me that thinks, in a way, maybe Colorado belongs in that part of the country in a conference, and I do know that there's a lot of people who feel like part of the reason Colorado hasn't been able to crawl out of the hole we've been in the last twenty years is because the normal recruiting grounds, where when Colorado is good, we recruit well, like Texas has kind
of been hard to recruit when you're not playing in Texas. So some of this seems to be going back to sort of a recipe that works for Colorado traditionally. Now, whether it'll work in the future, I don't know, but it's sort of a return to the past for us, and the past looks better than the present, So I'm going to go with that.
Are there specific opponents? Use nobody gets you out of bed like Nebraska? Are there any opponents? You mentioned Kansas State, Iowa State. Now you look at a conference without Texas and Oklahoma but has added Houston and UCF and BYU and Cincinnati. Is there anybody that Colorado doesn't have a history with where you'd say to yourself, that's interesting. I'm curious about that. I'm curious about being in a conference with this team.
Hmm. Well, BYU. I think it's gonna be kind of fun. And we played BYU in the Freedom Bowl in like nineteen eighty six or nineteen eighty seven. I think Ty Detmer was the quarterback. I was at that game in Anaheim, so that that was an interesting that could be a fun rivalry, I think. And Houston for some reason, it seems interesting to me. And we played Houston I think in the early seventies and something like the Blue Bonnet Bowl or one of those.
Kind of things.
So that's kind of interesting. I have really and you know, I'm going to say this now and then we'll develop some rivalry that goes on forever. But I have no really interest in Central Florida or Cincinnati or anything like that. But we'll see how it goes. I think also, let's be honest, these are good programs compared to what people
might normally think of them as. But I do think it's probably going to be a bit easier for Colorado to play those schools than some of the ones we've been playing, although we're moving with Utah, who's a nightmare, let's be honest, and Arizona and Arizona State.
So it's not.
Like we're coming to a conference with a whole bunch of teams that we can beat, because we haven't beat Utah, Arizona and Arizona State and they're coming with us.
So I don't know.
At this point. Like I said, this all goes back to one and eleven. Change just looks good no matter what it is at this point as far as I'm concerned, and having a conference and a media deal and a place to land now that the musical chairs music has stopped is fantastic anyway you slice it. You could be Stanford, you know, true true cow.
If you're putting on your other history buff hat doing what you normally do on hardcore history. Is there a historical event that you've covered, a historical figure that you've covered. Something in that vein at roughly equates to Colorado leaving the Big Twelve and then rejoining the Big Twelve. What is it a decade plus later?
Oh, I don't know.
I mean in a geopolitical sense, I think you'd have to think of countries falling apart and then going back to the to the motherland or whatever. I can't think of any you know, I do think in terms of like historical analogies when it comes to sports, I mean
I can see things like that. Although you know, it's funny because conferences break up, right you had the old Southwest Conference for example, But you don't see people going back, no, you know, to where they were, And a lot of times you don't see them going back because the place
where they were before is gone. So I mean, I think that's part of what makes us a little unusual, is that, you know, No, I mean I can't see us leaving the Pac twelve if there hadn't been problems there, and then to go back to where we came from. To be honest, I don't see a historical analogy, nor do I see a sporting analogy. Really, I'm sure I'm missing one, and one of your listeners will come up with one with an email after we're done, But I
actually don't see it. This is pretty unprecedented, and I think that mirrors the fact that what we're seeing in college football and the realignment and the conferences and the impact of the TV money and the NC DOUBLEA just sort of becoming inept and imputed at the same time, all of this is like a perfect storm, putting us into sort of uncharted territory.
Well, and I kind of wanted to pivot off that a little bit, because I know you did an episode a couple of years ago now titled The Destroyer of Worlds? What happens if human beings can't handle their own weaponry? Am I comparing college football to nuclear war? A little?
What are you doing, Tay a little?
I'm just wondering, like, does it feel like everyone's gotten a little bit too greedy, like a little bit over their skis with chasing money and media deals and the like. Are there any cautionary tales or any thoughts that foot around in your mind as somebody who follows history and obviously follows college football, for where this could go next, and you know how you see this grander thing of conference re alignment shaking out in the long term.
Well, I mean there's there's two things that come to my mind. The first one is is that you don't need this kind of money to field a college football team, but you might need this money to field a very good college football team. And I think part of the reason why is because of the competition between the schools, which has always existed. I mean, back in the day, you know, it was competition with you know, schools that had boosters giving jobs to players that didn't have to
show up on the on the job side. I mean there was always I mean SMU got the death penalty for a reason, right, there was always stuff going on. I do think that when you look at the future of where college football is going, we're going to get to an interesting time here. I mean, you know, we can talk about the Big twelve being a wonderful place for Colorado to land, but that doesn't mean it's a wonderful place forever. They have a TV deal in place
till what the twenty thirty twenty thirty one season. So what happens then, right, is that because to me, if you look at where this is going, and circumstances can change, But this looks to be like the TV networks have hit a limit here on how much they can pay and still make a profit.
Right.
If that's the case, then it's very possible that the next deals that are offered, especially once you take the big ten and the SEC out of this, are going to be less than what these conferences have gotten before. And what happens when you're going backwards on an athletic department budget, right, I Mean, it's one thing to say we're going to take less of an increase than we expected. It's another thing to say we're going to take ten million less per school than we had last time. I mean,
can you really downsize and have it all work? I mean, that's what Washington State and Oregon State are seeing right now. I Mean they have debt and budgets and stadiums and all kinds of things that they have to try to manage with almost certainly less money than they thought they were going to have. Well, what happens when that's not just you know, Washington State and Oregon State's problem. What happens when that's the problem of everybody outside the big
two conferences. What happens if the ACC finally eventually re ups the deal that they have and they don't get as much as they got this time, which they're not happy with. So I mean, I think the interesting thing is going to be is is And we all understand that live sports is the one of the really few areas where linear television can still get you to watch live right and watch the commercials and not tape it.
And so I mean that's going to be one of those things where you say, okay, so it's still the cash cow. It's the only golden you know, goose that they have right now. But what happens when they've maxed out the amount that they can pay and still recoup a profit? And I think, you know, the interesting thing here to me is the teams that have sort of
fallen into the wonderful land of oz here. I mean, everybody understands that if you're Michigan or if you're Alabama, I mean that you're going to get this kind of money and that you're worth this to the TV networks. But my goodness, how did Vanderbuilt and Rutgers and those schools got grandfathered into this thing? And you know, if the TV networks could do it, they would boot the weaker schools and replace them with Florida State and Miami and those kinds of schools. But we haven't seen that
happen yet. You can't go in and boot grandfathered schools. But what you can do is destroy a conference and then only take the best schools out of it, and then it's not your fault if Oregon State has no place to go?
Do you know what I'm saying?
Well, and that's what I think worries me about what could happen next, because it's very popular online, especially to think of how all of the remaining teams that aren't in either the Big Ten or the SEC will eventually clump together into two Pangaea Conferences. But as you said, at some point, the cable networks are going to max out.
They can't pay infinite amount of money, And so what worries me is when all these media deals are up, are we going to get to a point where TV stations and networks have even greater control and do exactly what you just described. They're going to Big Ten, they're going to the SEC, and they're saying, all right, we want these ten teams. We want these ten teams. We're going to create a premier league, and whoever is left
out is left out. But in the future, if this is just a continuing plate for more money, that's the only way I could see that anybody could pay more.
Well.
But it's like I said, the truth is, you don't need this kind of money to field a football team, right, But you do if you need to have brand new athletic facilities every five years, if you need to be cutting edge, and they have to have the high definition TV screens above every locker. In other words, the things you need to woo the top players is what requires these schools to shell out the kind of money they do. That's not what uniforms cost, right, That's not what travel
budgets cost. That's not even what it costs to field the non revenue teams, you know, But that's what you need in order to participate in the arms race for the top recruits. So that's sort of a different questions.
So if you have your Pangaea League, for example, I as long as you have a path for those schools to play in the national Championship, I'm not sure there's not a way to sell that to the schools that already are mortgaging their future to try to compete in the world where trying to be Oregon, for example, without a Phil Knight is really I mean, you end up in debt. I mean, this is the problem that schools.
I mean, look at Cal's dealing with Washington State's got real problems, but they've got those problems because they're trying
to play with big boys. That there might be a sort of a relief not having to And then there's another way of looking at this, And I don't know how I feel about it, frankly, but I know you guys have probably talked about it too, which is there's a lot of people that feel like all of this is corrupting the college football that we love, and that if there's going to be and I think we talked about this when we talked last time, if there's going to be an NFL light that develops out of this,
right with the top twenty four five programs or whatever you want to say, when all the shakeup is over, is there a place where you could say that the rest of the teams then actually form something more like the college football that we used to appreciate, you know, can you maybe say that everybody doesn't have to play this game and there doesn't have to be winners and losers as much as there might just have to be
separate categories. And the only problem is, and we talked about this the last time, also, is that you definitely are killing the regionalism. You definitely are killing the old rivalries. And I can't speak for younger people who didn't grow up with these rivalries. But when we came to the PAC twelve Colorado, for example, and they try to make Utah our artificial enemy, we don't hate Utah. We don't have, you know, decades and decades of history with that. There
have been bloodbaths with Nebraska. There's when I think I
told you guys this story. But when I got to Colorado in eighty six, there were all these for you young people, I might have to explain it to find it, xeroxes that were zeros onto every telephone pole and any anything that stood vertically above ground on the Colorado campus that showed a scene from the previous year's game against Nebraska, and it had two very very large Nebraska players standing over what appeared to be a relatively small Colorado player
who was clearly deathly injured with like his leg snapped or something, and they were standing above him laughing, and this was on. I mean, this was how you develop the hatred that even now when we don't play him for years and then we play them again, it's as
though nothing left that takes decades to really grow. And so if you move conferences around too much and you shatter the the either the history or the developing hatred, well then you kill something that that makes something in college football I think unique, and I think we're gonna
miss that down the road. And maybe you know you brought up Destroyer of World Worlds and one of the things we had said there is, you know, if you had a gun pointed to your head from the time you're born, do you even know you have a gun pointed to your head? Well, if you've never experienced a real rivalry over the decades that it takes to really foster something like that, do you really miss it? I don't know. I miss Nebraska though.
So do you find yourself feeling romantic about the past more than you do hopeful for the future? Where do you how do you square where we are with your.
Own Colorado fandom.
And how do you I mean you talk about with you know, teams spending like crazy, taking wild financial swings to try to compete with the top. Colorado's kind of trying to do that right now, where where would you prefer Colorado be in that old sort of regional style that reforms in your mind, or you know, continuing to swing even though it seems on the surface kind of feudal.
Well, I'm glad you brought that up. That was something I had said to myself I should bring up, and then I forgot about it. So I'm glad you reminded me. But what Dion Sanders is doing at Colorado again, you know, the jury is still out on how this is going to turn out, but let's assume it's successful. If it's successful, then what he is showing is how schools without a Phil Knight or without the sort of backing in Ohio State or an Alabama has, how they might pull this off?
Right Because what is deon Sanders State says, Colorado's got no bag. We have no bag for these players. If you want to bag, you have to go elsewhere. But can they promise something else? Is there a way to offer subsidiary benefits that don't correspond to the things that we normally assume a player's after, whether it's you know, the hype or the swag, or the or the cachet of playing for Deon Sanders or this idea. You know, he has this line. I'm going to try to remember it.
If you play good, they pay good. I mean, is it the idea that that stop trying to make all this money when you're in college, Come here, I'll make you a pro and then you'll make tons of money. So are there other ways to set cause?
Again?
All these facility upgrades and staying on the cutting edge of all the cool stuff for the players is all part of gaining a recruiting edge. Are there other ways to gain that recruiting edge without all that? And I think that's what this Deon Sanders approach is an attempt to do to say, we're never going to have what Alabama and Oregon have, but we have something that they don't. Come here, play for me. I'll get you to the
pros I have. And I think you know, it's never said, but you feel like it's implied, you know, when he brings all these pros who was it that was that was there this week top wide receiver shows up for the NFL. You got these guys and who was it was? The Denver Broncos working out with them the other day. There's this implied thing like, I know all these guys in the NFL play for me, and I'll make a call. Right they'll know your name because I'll call them for you.
That's not something that's advertised on the wall, but you get this sense that there's you know that that's the hidden advantag of coming to Colorado now is there's no bag, but Deon Sanders is going to make you know all the connections for you.
One, there's only Deon.
There's only one Deon Sanders though, right that like, it's not a blueprint that can easily be replicated unless you go find the most charismatic players of the last you know, twenty five years and convince them to coach at your college. That would, I think be the counterpoint that it would be hard for Purdue or Minnesota or Oklahoma State or somebody like or Oklahoma State has money, so that's not a good example, but you know, a smaller major program
to replicate. And two, if it works, isn't Dion gone. Isn't he leaving Colorado in that situation?
So that's that's the big worry, is that if Deon Sanders is a horrible coach and we lose a ton, then this was a bad thing. If Deon Sanders is a fantastic coach and leaves next year, then this was probably I can't say it's a bad thing because again one in eleven, right, but but it's not optimal. You know, Well, here's what you hope. And again you asked earlier whether I'm watching all of the materials and the hype and everything, and I am. He has, so I guess he's a
great fisherman. He's really enjoying Boulder. He bought a house that's got a stream behind his house that has these huge fish in it. You know, what you kind of hope is that if he can win at Colorado, and you can win at Colorado, sure, then maybe you find the lifestyles wonderful and there's no reason to leave. I just there was a story out yesterday that Colorado just beat all of its previous records at least for the last decade, on the amount of money donated to the
athletic department this last year. Well that's all from Dion Sanders too. So theoretically, I mean, could we pay him as much as any other team out there? I don't think we could. But again, and this is almost the Dion Sanders philosophy working on Dion Sanders, but could we make his life good enough in so many other respects that when you take it all holistically, you'd rather win
there than elsewhere. And let's be honest, there's another aspect here that I think Oregon and Washington are going to find out to their detriment when they go to the Big Ten. This is not going to be as tough of a conference to get to the playoffs in. And there's an advantage there too, Or you know, there's the
real possibility that Oregon's going to find themselves. You know, I'll probably eat my words here, but going six and six, a lot of the years in the in the Big Ten, and a team like Nebraska who's already struggling, what are they going to do with usc UCLA, Oregon and Washington now probably in whatever division they end up in. Life just got tougher for those schools. Life just got easier for Dion Sanders and the Colorado Buffaloes.
So you grew up in southern California. I remember you live in Eugene, Oregon, or you used to live in Eugene, OI. I do, I've lived here a long time now. Yeah, yeah, So you are familiar with West Coast football. I went to Oregon. I'm from southern California, and so there is definitely a part of me as somebody who grew up watching all of these West Coast schools play each other. That is said is wistful because what we're now seeing
is this sort of mega conference coming together. And I don't feel anything about Wisconsin, even though Oregon played Wisconsin and the Rose bull I don't feel anything about Oregon playing Northwestern or Minnesota or Ohio State, Rutgers, Maryland, all of these places. And so I'm starting at square one as an Oregon fan as I'm sure and Oregon will play you know, Washington, USC, UCLA. So there's the connectivity there.
But will you watch a new look Big ten knowing that you don't necessarily have feelings about a lot of these matchups even though you have that that geographic connective tissue.
Well, you know, I don't know I think what you're saying, though, holds a lot of weight. I mean, the idea that you could have a more than a one hundred year old college conference just disappear overnight is upsetting. I mean, you know, and I don't know what I mean. Look, it's one thing if you have conferences that have been on shaky ground for a long time. Maybe only interests locally, but I mean the PAC ten, PAC twelve, PAC eight back when I was a kid. That's a historic conference.
I mean the Rose Bowl with the PAC twelve, PAC ten and the Big Ten. I mean, these are foundational entities in college football. I mean if the SEC went away tomorrow, what would that mean? Or if the Big ten went away tomorrow, what would that I mean, It's hard to square that with a sport who's you know, one of the things that they sell the most when they talk about it is tradition, right, I mean the Conference of Champions, all that sort of hype. No, it's
hard to square and I do think that. You know, I was joking with a friend the other day, I think we're one step away. There's only one thing that the pros do that college doesn't do yet, and we maybe you know, we were playing around with the idea because it's kind of a funky idea. But why does the University of Oregon even have to play in Eugene anymore? I mean, why can't it be the University of Oregon Ducks in Las Vegas?
Right?
The Las Vegas Ducks representing the University of Oregon. I mean, that's the one last holdover, is that these these teams are actually still tied to the institutions. But somebody might turn around one day and go, well, you know, if Oregon can't get enough money here to compete, there are a lot of other towns that would pay for them, and they could still be the University of Oregon Ducks. They just wouldn't be in, you know, a tiny little town like Eugene. I mean, that's to me, that's the
only difference between the NFL right now. NFL teams can move, college teams can't. But whoever wrote that they can't?
Are you for this?
No?
No, no time, not for what's already happened. It was me, I'd still be in the Big Eight. What are you talking about?
I like this. I'm just making sure. I'm just making sure sense check, that's all. Yes, No.
One of the terms I use is scar tissue. As as an Oregon fan, you know, everybody makes a big deal about the traditions and the rivalries that we lose. And my thing this whole time is I have a lot of scar tissue about Washington State, Arizona, Arizona State. I even remember our game Colorado, if you can believe it, beat Oregon in the last decade.
And cal I was at that game. By the way, that was awesome.
When Oregon was dressed up as the duck, when they were wearing the orange cleat.
I'd interrupt you and tell you a story about that than you though, because to me, it embodies everything we're talking about in college football.
Right.
So, Colorado's gone through these terrible years and it's been really tough for wee Colorado fans. And so I'm at that game with a bunch of Oregon fans. And if you saw that game, Colorado won it the very last second. It was completely improbable. I don't know what the points spread was in Vegas, but it was. It was never supposed to happen. Right, So as we're walking out of
the game, the entire Oregon crowd is stunned. But there's a few Colorado fans like yours truly in the crowd as we're walking out, and we were afraid to, you know, hoot and hall right because we're so badly outnumber. But all of a sudden, and I mean completely spontaneously, anyone who was wearing any Colorado gear or anything would hold their hands up above the crowd, and another Colorado fan would touch your hand and just this sort of silent
acknowledgment of hey, something good happened to us. We did it. We're in hostile territory, but can you believe we won that game? And I mean this was completely voiceless, wordless, and everyone did it. And I walked out of that and just said, where else does that happen? So when we talk about the specialness of this sport, that to me is one of those moments where you just go that was a special moment in a horrible era of Colorado football for me, and I don't think it would
have happened had we been this powerhouse. It only happened because we had this shared moment of a victory in darkness, and only another Colorado fan that day knew what it meant. And we couldn't celebrate openly, we couldn't tear down the goalpost to the visiting stadium, but we could have this silent moment of acknowledgment that you know, we were in this together in this hostile place, and wasn't it awesome?
You know?
See, that's that's an interesting point and observation. I've been in stadiums where Oregon fans were super out numbered, you know, at USC wherever, and Oregon is able to pull off an upset in hostile territory, but Oregon fans can get to USC. There are a ton of Oregon fans in southern California. There are a ton of Washington fans along
the West coast. I wonder if it's going to be different when one of these West coast schools plays, you know, Minnesota, Minnesota wouldn't be an upset, but Penn State or Michigan. And I think early on people will travel. I just wonder if the experience of seeing college football in person on the road changes with geography, that you won't have as many acknowledged, silent acknowledgements after your team goes into
a huge stadium and pulls off an upset. I think the geography might play in there, but maybe I'm wrong.
I don't see how it can't be an issue. I mean, first of all, if they do pods, or I mean, when you're if Oregon is playing the two LA schools in Washington and then some schools in the Big Ten or whatever, I think, I think you'll get just as much travel as you always did with the with the schools on the West Coast, and then maybe your average Oregon fanels spring for a game here or a game there on the road. But it has to affect things, I would think, and uh, and you know what, not
just that I do think that. You know, I have a lot of friends who are Oregon fans, and they keep talking about Oregon's record against some of these schools. We beat Michigan this year, or we beat Ohio State this year, and I keep saying, yes, but those are one offs. Especially the way Oregon schedules, it's usually one marquee, really tough non conference game sandwich between two relatively winnable ones,
and so you can get up for that. It's not like you're facing those kinds of offensive lines week after week after week. I think that's going to be t when you have to do that in terms of injuries and depth. Here's the thing that's more interesting to me is with these West Coast schools going to the Big Ten, with the weather, with the style of ball and everything that those teams play, are you going to start to
see those teams look like Big ten teams? I mean, once you've gone through a few recruiting cycles, do they start to resemble the Michigan States and the Ohio States and the Iowa's a little bit more. I'm intrigued by that possibility.
God, I hope they don't look like Iowa.
I really, especially on offense. I can't handle that.
See I can I want see this is where we're different coming from a Big eight school. I want if you go watch the two thousand and one game where Colorado destroyed the Nebraska program and somehow killed ourselves in the same game. I don't know how that happened. That's the style of football I want to play. And what's funny is it's very old fashioned. And I was reading
somewhere that Nebraska's trying to go back to more. I mean, you know, this could be a bunch of hype, but that new coach wants to go back to a full back, two tight ends, that kind of thing, and see if that works. I'm really curious if that worked. I'd love to do that.
It's it.
But you know what, it's a stupid thing to do to go to an old style offense just because of nostalgia. I mean, if that's the case, why not go to like, you know, the flying v and all that kind of old stuff.
You know, I have to ask, since you've been talking so much smack on Nebraska, Dan, there is a game this year between Colorado and Nebraska. Do you have any plans to attend.
I'm going, Yeah, I'm going. I couldn't. I couldn't get out of it. Somebody offered me free tickets and then you and I said to my wife, I said, I'm not going. I said, I have to watch that game alone in a darkened room on television with rewind and announcers and all this. And she said, no, no, no, you're good. We're both going. If the free tickets to a game
that's hard to get tickets to. Nebraska is a hard game for me to watch though, because if you actually go look at the stats, you know your your poor audience has been regaled with Colorado centric discussion, this whole conversation. But if you actually go and watch those games, the number of times that Nebraska has scored either the very first time they touched the ball or in the first series. Again, this is how rivalries are made, right, This is where
you develop. Like you had talked about scars, this is how scars are formed. And the scars are what really you know, what's that old line from one of the superhero movies. Our scars are what make us who we are. And that's how these programs develop the sort of feels that they have. And so I don't even want to be at the stadium. And I told my wife. She said we're going, And I said, great, So what do we do if Nebraska kills us? It's gonna be a lot of fun to be at the stadium live when
that happens. So yes, I'll be at the game. Apparently, do you have a single piece of red clothing? You strike me as somebody who might not because of Nebraska. It's funny you say that. So I'm wearing a pair of red athletic shorts right now. And my wife and wait, and my wife and my daughter looked at me today and said, I don't think I've ever seen you in red. So it's like the first time if.
You have any antics when you're watching Colorado football, like if you're alone in the darkened room, because I.
Know Dan and I do yet I'm usually on message boards at the same time, and not just mine. I'll be on Nebraska's at the same time. Right, I'll be reading both sides and comments about every play.
Yeah, well, you know I have a problem. Oh this is great.
So what are you a Are you a silent viewer stewing when you're upset?
Are you a yeller? Have you broken remotes? Is?
What is the physical reputation that you have watching Colorado football?
It's you know, again, you have to make a distinction between watching Colorado football and watching the Nebraska game. Right, Normally, I'm a very quiet, sort of passive observer, especially you know, the last few years have given me nothing to get excited about. I mean, you just kind of get you know, you resign yourself. But Nebraska's different. And I have to say, even with these down years, we've beaten Nebraska the last
couple of times we've played them. I believe this game this year is going to cause I think our record in the twenty first centuries even either this one evens it up or this will put Colorado head one or the other. So for this game, yes, I throw things, I scream and yell, and it's the it's completely out of character too. I mean, it is once again a bizarre testimonial to what this sport can do to us, with the passion and the excitement and the history and
all that kind of stuff. It's it's the let's put it this way, I'm down to one sport and this is it. And if they screw this one up for me, I got nothing else.
So what what now?
Right now?
You have the Nebraska game coming up? Are you going to be watching the sport in its entirety?
Has that?
Has anything changed with this offseason, with the movement of the sport? How are you adjusting? I know you have your the things that excite you, the things that worry you. How do you plan on consuming the sport overall next year and beyond.
Well, it's weird for my family because I obviously went to see you, but my wife went to Washington State. Her whole family went to Oregon State. So, as her brother told me recently, Oregon in State doesn't even know who they're playing next year. Yeah, I mean, try to imagine what that looks like. They don't even know who they're playing once conference schedules start. So, I mean, I have a lot of sympathy for the programs that don't
have a home right now. And we can talk all day long about we know we'll just go into the Mountain West or just reform the PAC twelve. But it's easier said than done. And if the money's not there, I guess you should be glad that there's a route to the championship game somehow. But it's going to be a look, as I told my brother in law, Colorado is just in a more delayed version of what Oregon State has because when that big twelve TV deal comes up for renewal, it could be the same situation all
over again. I mean, I don't think the TV networks are going to be really excited about re upping your Texas, Tech, Central, Florida, you know. I mean, it's no offense to those teams,
but it's not Ohio State, Michigan, Alabama. You know, it's just a different story once you not one of those have programs and so I'm going to be watching the last year of the PAC twelve is the way I look at it and try to enjoy, you know, one hundred and some year old conference play its last year, and ironically enough, it could be one of the best years in conference history if you look at on the on paper anyway. And then I think, I'm gonna watch the year after that to see what the new world
looks like. And I'll always watch CU football. But so there's a little curiosity about what the first year in the Big ten means to all those PAC twelve formerly packed twelve teams and what I don't know what the first year in the Mountain west of the reform PAC twelve looks like for the schools that stand by and look, let's be honest, what's going to happen with the ACC?
I think that's the next big question for everybody to wonder about, because if Clemson and Miami and Florida State go away, I mean, you know, then what do you have? I mean, goodness, gracious.
So here's your platform, here is your opportunity, deep Colorado. What do you believe is I'm trying to figure out how to ask this question. I just want to give you a platform to give you your Colorado thoughts at the moment. I think the general consensus at the moment is they have interesting skill players. They have speed on defense, the good corners in our great corners potentially in Cormani Maclain and Travis Hunter, an intriguing quarterback prospect who hasn't
faced big time defenses in Shador Sanders. What do you think people have right and wrong about either Gelling or where the talent is. It's hard to sort of know because none of these guys have played together, it seems. So what is your general outlook in the short term with Colorado football this season? What are you expecting to see on the field.
Well, well, let me apologize to your audience once again for a completely Colorado centric program today, But I'll give you the rundown. I can give you some so quarterback feel however you want about Shadoor Sanders. Colorado does not traditionally have good quarterbacks. So I can count the good quarterbacks at Colorado on one hand, and even the ones that graded on a curve look good to us are not that great. Cordel Stewart, Darien Hagen are the best
quarterbacks I ever saw. At Colorado. Corey Deptman was probably the best pure passer at Colorado, And while I love those guys, they're not Peyton Manning, right. So this is the best quarterback Colorado's had in a very long time. He may be the best quarterback Colorado's ever had, and it doesn't take that much to be to be the best we've ever had. We're a running back school when it comes to offense, right in an offensive line school.
Running back. I don't know how to grade the running back hip because the guy who's a mcaskal, who's coming off a terrible knee injury, and he still seems a little fragile. So we'll see Covasier Smoke from Kentucky. I don't know what to think of him yet. Dylan Edwards, the guy we stole from Notre Dame, is fast as lightning. I'm happy to have somebody who's fast as lightning. So we'll see. I'm glad to have him out there. The
offensive line, I don't trust the offensive line yet. Got my fingers crossed, but I think the skill players on offense are the best we've had a lot, and the wide receivers are maybe better than any we've ever had as a group.
Wow.
So it was a few years ago with Laviska Chanalt and Katie Nickson. They had a couple of dudes.
Oh but you think back in my day was like Charles Johnson. Oh sure, I mean the guys, we had some great guys back in the day. But but this is a lot of depth to go along with the skill. We'll see how tight end pans out. I don't know if I believe some of the hype coming out of the camp, but we'll see. Defense is a different question, Tire. The dbs are fantastic. I think you're gonna have a I think I think that's going to allow the defensive coordinator to do some interesting things to cover up holes
that we might have. Don't know about the linebackers. These are supposedly good players. We'll see, Uh, the edge, he's going to be good. The interior, I don't know about. But once again, if your DB's are really rock solid and really good, you can cover up some of those holes. Maybe we might have to outscore some people, and depending on how the offensive line turns out, we'll see how
that happens. But as I said, coming from one to eleven, I don't know how you're not just completely jacked and and and they may call Dion Sanders a failure if we go you know, six and six or something like that. But that's a huge victory if that's especially Yeah, and look at the look at this and look at the schedule. I mean, with the schedule the Buffs have this year. If we go six to six, I don't know how you're not happy. It's about fan no matter how much cool aid you're dripping.
Oh he'd be National Coach of the year six and six.
Oh yeah, that scares me. Right. You don't know how to You don't know how many victories you want Dan to have, right if if he has a super great season, we may lose him.
So but here's the thing.
Coming from one to eleven, even if you go six and six, he builds up all of this national attention on Colorado football again, which which has not been there. That's a net positive. Even if he leaves after a year, if he gets anything nothing in a good direction, you know, I think maybe the coach you can get after him too, might be better than you could have hope for other I mean, when you raise the profile of the program because here's the problem.
And you guys know this, and your whole audience knows it too. The memory of these people you're trying to recruit is probably eight to ten years long. So if you haven't been good in eight or ten years, it doesn't matter how long. Those of us who have long
memories of a program's history matter, right. So what Dion Sanders is doing is raising the profile in the minds of these young people in a way that puts Colorado at least on the radar for their short term memory here, so that even if he leaves, you'll have more to build on than you otherwise would. And if he's leaving because of success, all the better. So that's why I think this is one of those hires that was a no lose higher for us, no matter what happens.
Have you and be honest here, have you written more than one thousand words at a time on a message board?
Oh? No, people hate that you can't do that, But you can write four or five posts in quick succession.
Use it like Twitter, right, use the universe?
Yeah, three or four two hundred and fifty word posts and in quick succession.
I appreciate that.
Dan Carlin hardcore history what can we promote for you? What have you been up to now?
Then? Just you know you do the shows, love it if people like the work. I like talking college football. You guys do a great job, You ask great questions, and as always, I hope, I hope we don't bore your audience to tears.
That's all. Now, they'll love it.
Here here's what we're gonna do, Dan. We're gonna give you our phone number, our voicemail line that you can call into after that Colorado Nebraska game and give us a real time, raw reaction and we'll play it on you.
We'll see it depends on how things go. Yes, I don't need to be on your show having it all rubbed in, you know, so we'll see sobbing. Yeah, guys, what we're gonna know it. We're gonna know a lot more clearly after the first game, because that's the problem is that we are a complete unknown.
Right.
We can be awful, we could be great, we could be anywhere in between, and we have no idea when you've got seventy new players, all new coaches will have the offense. I mean, everything is completely unknown. So we'll know more after the first game and you know what I mean. You almost think you kind of want to lose, just barely to TCU. Have a chip on your shoulder.
Have the first game at home for Deon Sanders running behind the buffalo or scootering behind the buffalo or whatever he's going to be doing, and then, you know, hopefully do real well against the rivals and tear the goalpost down. So we'll see. But I have no idea what to expect. I'm just I have a ton of curiosity like the rest of you.
Awesome, Well, we appreciate your time. As always, We'll keep in touch this season. It's going to be interesting, to say the least for a Colorado fan. Dan carlon Hardcore History, Thank you again. We'll have you back on it at some point.
Thanks for having me on, guys, as usual, appreciate.
It all right, Dan, there you go, West Coast Brethren for you on this podcast.
The connective tissue of growing up in southern California, spending time in Eugene, Oregon.
Ruining the end of the Pac twelve.
On a certain level, of course, I think as a Colorado fan he might be a little bit more excited for the Buffs to join the Big twelve than I am for Oregon to join the Big Ten. But nonetheless, the energy from Dan Carlin is unmatched. Hy It's unmatched. It is right where it needs to be. If you're a college football fan and like on a personal level, I can't help but geek out when he comes on the program. Hardcore History is on my Rushmore podcasts.
I love what he does. Of course, go and check out his podcast, Hardcore History. It's just interested in learning something new. Dan does an awesome job just speaking to these moments in history and these situations that have kind of crafted the world. He does an awesome job. We're so thrilled that he came back, and I'm going to try and get him on the reverbline this year after
that Nebraska game. I'm going to try and earnest. I'm just going to send it to him the number, like, hey man, if you're feeling up to it, give us a ring.
I agree. I'm hopeful for that.
So what it says ty that somebody who just constantly deep dives some of the greatest human atrocities ever turns to college football as something that is particularly interesting to him and mid tier to low tier fandom with where Colorado has been the visceral nature of him talking about Nebraska football as a Colorado fan.
Did it not bring a tier to your eye?
I would never publicly admit to scanning an opponent's a rival's message board, not the company rivals, but a rival commass message board during a game in which your team is looking great. And the fact that he so freely does it means he's so comfortable in his college football scan beautiful help.
But to love having him on the show, Oh, it's absolutely beautiful. And the other thing I know that we've found over the years when we bring on just a prominent fan, doesn't matter who it is, sometimes they're a little hazy on the facts. Oh my god, not no Carl D. Carlin dropping it and Alton mccaskell, Dan Carlin knows what Colorado football. Well, yeah, look, it's good to have him back. Well, we'll try to bring him on again at some point throughout the course of the season,
if only in voicemail form. Go and check out Hardcore History. His podcast needs no introduction.
Can I ask you one final question? Yeah? Please?
So, a lot of everybody that follows college football on sort of a regional or national level, has cultivated some sort of opinion about Deon Sanders over the course of the last few months, from time you hired to revamping the roster and now we're in the midst of fall camp as we record this. Has your opinion of him or of Colorado big picture, medium picture, small picture? Has
it evolved at all? The more you've just sort of sat on the knowledge that Deon Sanders and this roster are going to be making their way through I guess the Pac twelve, but then the Big twelve.
I have maintained since the very beginning that it's a brilliant move. Okay, it's a brilliant hire, and I know his tactics came under fire a bit. They're going to have something like seventy one new players. Yeah, this season they had fifty guys transfer out. We've never seen that kind of roster turnover, not even close to it, and I know that rankled some. I don't see unless he commits horrible recruiting violations along the way, which is not off the table unless he gets them in hot water,
that's going to affect the program moving forward. I can't see how it's a bad thing. Even if they go to and ten, like, there's so much more interest in the program. As Dan mentioned, there is more money flowing into this program now than ever before. I just think I've always felt like it was a smart move, and everything I've seen so far, although unorthodox, has really just reinforced that for me.
Yeah.
You know, the thing is, you say, even if he goes to inten, he's going to have to do better than that, because going through a terrible season is still going to hurt recruiting, even if Dion's able to sell
it as like, well, you know it's your one. This is just you know, I was trying to put together a roster that's more respectable than where it was, but still you want a little bit of proof of concept that like, well, if deon hand selected these guys to you know, be in his too deep, you'd sort of hope that he could get more out of them if this is the roster he wanted to assemble. Obviously you miss on some recruits, but I'm I'm still for it because I'm a big believer in taking swings, and this
is certainly a swing from Colorado. I'm crazy curious to see what happens the week after something goes terribly wrong, right, because that's when you're going to see like, oh, Dion has their heads in the right place, they're still locked in. They lost that game by twenty eight. It was ugly. It was never a game. The team they lost to wasn't anything special. Can they bounce back this coming week against Arizona State or Washington State?
Right?
Can he prevent Colorado? Is he in a place as ahead coach? Because they certainly look to be in that place at Jackson State, but all they did was win games there. It's going to be different this year, So I'm curious to see what that team looks like after a setback of some kind.
They're also a great unknown, you know. So much of what we do when we're previewing teams is we're looking back at how a team did last year and we're looking forward and trying to judge based on how many of those guys are back returning production. It does mean something. It doesn't mean everything, but it's not insignificant.
Colorado.
Everybody's starting over. Yeah, it's so drastic that it doesn't matter. You throw it out completely. They are very much an unknown quantity. Now. We're not expecting them to go ten to two. It'll be I think a miracle if they make a bowl game. But there is something, There is a charm, especially in college football when you're dealing with a truly unknown quantity, especially one that's as public facing as Dion Sanders and Colorado are. Now they're one of
the top five most interesting stories. Even if they don't win a game in twenty twenty three.
It's it's wild, it's and they have TCU Week one. Yeah, the most anticipated Week one matchup in the last year, to say the least. Yeah, I can't wait. I think it's a great story. And I appreciated Dan pointing out that, like, look, from the outside, you might not like it overhauling a roster, just like cutting players left and right, because it's your
turn now to build this roster. But it does have that feel of like, hey, look, I know I'm a Giants fan, and that's why I love Barry Bonds, even if everybody else hates them.
I know I'm a Laker fan.
I know everybody else hates Sasha Vyachich for hounding everybody, but I love him.
And so there is that element of like, look, we went one and eleven. Something wasn't right. The roster was not in a good enough place to get to a.
Bol taste for times desperate measures.
So something had to be done pretty dramatically, And if it were your team, you would be hoping for the same kind of year to year overhaul given that kind of flexibility that's available in college football now So I.
Like that he may be a bit bombastic. At least he's honest, Yeah, definitely is.
At Least he's.
Honest, and that's in short supply in college football nowadays, so I at least give him that. Right in Salverbodgmail dot com, find us on social media. We are turning the corner now and running downhill towards the season Week zero getting awfully big in the window. We'll have our preview for you on our next episode, the handful of games that are of interest.
One more time.
As I said at the very top of the episode, verballers dot Com is where you can go and check out all the perse we've got this season on our patron It's the best way you can support what Dan and I do. You have nothing more play for the prizes, man, It'll be fun. Verballers dot Com v E R B A L L E R s dot com. Big thanks to our guest of honor Dan Carl And check him out over at hardcore History for that guy of there, Dan rubenste for myself Tie Hiller brand things for downloading, listening,
and supporting the show. But we'll talk to y'll soon.
Stay solid, peace, m