Welcome to the Solid Verbal.
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And Dan and Tye welcome back to the Solid Verbal. Boys and girls. My name is ty hilden Brandt. As you can tell from the title of this show, it is yet another installment of our only Homers Allowed series? Would you let in Homer Clublet look, it has no homeers, We're allowed to one. I felt so left jed, and today we're pleased to welcome back to the show mister
Larry Williams from Tiger Illustrated dot Com. We actually had Larry on the show way back when, like six years ago to talk about Clemson, and it's been far too long. When we put the call out for folks to tell us who do you want to have on to represent your school, Larry Williams was the overwhelming favorite for the
Clemson Tigers. So we're going to get into all things Clemson, from Trevor Lawrence to the obvious beast that is the Clemson defensive line, and also this state of affairs in college football, the rise of Clemson really at the same time as the rise of Alabama, and how it feels this year anyway, like the two programs are destined to meet in the National Championship. So all that and more, Larry gave us so much insight. Appreciate everyone tuning in.
Don't forget we also have another only Homers Allowed episode, Dan recorded with our friend Ryan Abraham to talk about the state of affairs at Southern cal So without further ado, ladies and gentlemen, Larry Williams all right, I am joined now by the foremost authority on Clemson football. He writes for Tiger Illustrated dot com, he hosts the outstanding Clemson Dubcast podcast, and of course he is the author of
Clemson Tough, Guts and Glory under Dabos Sweeney. Please welcome back to the show, mister Larry Williams, Sir, how are you.
Hey man, Great to be with you, ty, enjoy your podcast.
Thank you. You know you were on the podcast like six years ago. I went back and checked. The last time you were on with us was way back when in twenty twelve.
Well, I shudder to think at some of the questions and I shudder to think it probably some of the answers I gave given the different state of the program now compared to then.
Walk me through how the program has changed over the last six years.
Well, when we last talked, I'm assuming that was well either before or during the twelve season, and so you're in the first year in the Brin's Nivals, and he was struggling. They were not near what they are now. They I mean, they gave up forty eight points to NC State that year I believe like sixty sixty two
to forty eight. They got just dragged up and down the field late at Florida State, and they really were still known as sort of that Tommy Balden type rollercoaster that could they could bag some big wins, but that would fall on their face and and they so they were just several months removed from seventy to thirty three. Against West Virginia in the Orange Bowl. The narrative after that debacle sort of nationally was, boy, it's going to
take them a long time to recover from this. And so a year later that went over LSU in the in the Chick fil A Bowl, was so big there was a feeling that they just can't hold up against some of these SEC heavyweights, and not many people thought they were going to be able to hang with LSU, let alone beat them, And so they did. They won that game. And then in the thirteenth opener, Georgia goes to Clemson with Todd Gurley. I remember that game, yeah, very yeah, great game, yep. And so here's how I
sort of view it. In the LSU game in Atlanta, the defensive line owned that game. And there's a bunch of young defensive linemen like Grady Jarrett and Vic Beasley and Corey Crawford. Yeah, and so then against Georgia, even though Georgia put up thirty five in that game, if you go back and watch, Clemson's defensive line controlled that game.
And so Clemson is always even under Tommy Balden. He's always had elite skill guys, right, sure, But where they really turn the corner is when they started getting big time players on the defensive line. So that's really where they got to the level where they could they could go toe to toe with the heavy weight.
So you mentioned the defensive line, and you know, I mean, we're covering fifty games a week here on the podcast, and for me, I'm always trying to figure out what is a team's identity that's going to help me understand what they're all about. My thirty thousand foot view of Clemson is that their defense is going to kill you in the trenches because of that front four, and they're going to set up an offense that is increasingly more balanced as the pieces around Trevor Lawrence as Trevor Lawrence
himself develops. I've I've kind of referred to it casually as like an upscale Michigan. Is that a fair assessment of who Clemson is as a team.
Well, I think so. I mean, you know, I don't watch a lot of Michigan, but I woulday I would say defensively, yes, Offensively, Michigan is more traditional, I guess, whereas Clemson, you know, dating back to the days of Chad Morris. Uh, and they were really cutting edge when Marris first got here because in the a SEC there was nobody else doing the the tempo, the hurry up,
no huddle stuff that he brought from Tulsa. So Clemson is more conventional than they used to be, but only conventional because everybody else is doing what Clemson used to be innovative doing if that makes any sense. Sure, but there's still a spread offense and they still have a lot of bells and whistles, a lot of eye candy, and so I would I would, I guess, consider them different from Michigan in that respect. I mean maybe, I don't know, maybe a little like Florida State during the
you know, during the nineties. Yeah, offensively, And in fact, that's what this feels like. Clemson in the ACC feels like Florida State and the ACC in the nineties when the Seminoles were like seventy and two or something ridiculous like that, when there was just no hope for anybody else to dethrone them. And honestly, I hate to sound like a Pollyanna here, but let me ask you, in the ACC over the next three to five years, who is Clemson's biggest threat.
Yeah, we were just talking about that. We were talking about that on our show yesterday. It's a pretty steep drop from Clemson to the next best team. And given the state, you would think it would be Florida State before long Clemson entered this season, so they win the ACC. Year ago, they made the College Football Playoff, they lose, of course, to the eventual national champion Alabama. They enter this season with a large chunk of that team in tact,
including Kelly Bryant, who was their starting quarterback. Yet from the moment, the very moment we started talking about the twenty eighteen season, it was like a foregone conclusion that Trevor Lawrence is going to take that job from him a true freshman, mind you, a foregone conclusion that he was going to overtake Kelly Bryant. He was going to be the starter, and he was going to do it
relatively quickly. I am fascinated by this Larry on like eighteen different levels, but I think mostly by the fact that there was so little controversy around it.
When Kelly Bryant decided to transfer, there was controversy only in that I think it was a surprise to a lot of people that he decided to up and leave. In The controversial part came with the sort of parting shots that he that he gave when he left, like it wasn't your typical release a statement through the school's communications department. He told the Greenville News that it was
a slap. He felt like he was treated unfairly and then it was a slap in the face that most certainly threw a lot of Clemson fans for a loop, and it created sort of an air of controversy, I guess because you have some national pundits like I think Desmond Howard maybe a couple of others, who were echoing that that he wasn't that Bryant wasn't treated fairly. I,
on the other hand, I believe the exact opposite. I mean, I think he was treated more than fairly, because I mean, Dad was Sweeney's m for years now, and you could see clear evidence of it in twenty fourteen Deshaun Watson's freshman season, similar situation where Cole Stout started the first few games, and where you could have made a legitimate argument that Deshaun could have should have started from from
snap one day one that season. Fast forwarding to this year, you could have made a legitimate argument that Trevor Lawrence should have started from snap one.
But here's here's where I think the difference is. Most quarterback changes are due to poor performance or attrition. Kelly Bryant wasn't perfect, right, but he was by no means bad. There are a lot of teams still that'll take Kelly Bryant instead. This was just like, hey, guys, we're going to start a true freshman, and you're all going to be cool with that, okay. Like the fact that there wasn't more pomp and circumstance around this quarterback switch has
sort of amazed me. Everyone just accepted it.
No, I agreed. And one key point is that the DA was twenty and the rest of the coaches they never considered it, Okay, it's Trevor's job now for good. They considered the competition to be continuing before Kelly Bryant decided to leave. But you know, Kelly could have won the job back. And in fact, you know, the first game of Trevor Lawrence starting was against Syracuse. They were not that good before Trevor Lawrence got hurt in that game. Okay,
he was not playing all that well. So it's very it's completely conceivable that Kelly Bryant could have played well in that game, led them to a win, maybe a decisive win, and he could have been starting again in the following week against wake Forest. But to your point, yes,
I mean, Trevor Lawrence is just that good. I mean I remember back in the spring where I really what really got my attention is when some of the assistant coaches were asked, Okay, where is Trevor compared to where dex I'm sorry, Deshaun Watson was at the same point of his freshman offseason after enrolling early, and they had no problem saying, yeah, he's right at the same level,
probably probably higher. And so the fact that the fact that the coaches had no problem publicly stating that, and most of the time they're wanting to pump the brakes on the anticipation surrounding a highly regarded freshman even if he is all that, But the fact that they held this kid in that high regard. I mean, and I was hearing sort of behind the scenes, not from stuff they were saying publicly, but just from sort of a little rumblings you get that they were saying privately, he's
the best quarterback they'd ever seen. And so that's amazing, and I think he has shown that to date. Now he's not a finished product.
Right Well, that was gonna be my next question. How do you grade what you've seen from Trevor Lawrence? Because the move was ballsy by any stretch, I don't care. It was a ballsy maneuver to bench Kelly Bryant, to put in a kid who had zero zero experience at the major college level at least two down at Alabama had a really good half and won a championship and
played in spot duty here and there. But Trevor Lawrence was a blank slate for him to come in first off, get the job, and then for Dabbo to be willing enough to stick with him. He's clearly gotten better throughout the course of the season. How would you grade what you've seen so far and where he's at?
Oh? Man, I mean it's flying colors. I mean, and you can have a you can have an AA without being totally perfect, you know, sure, and you have to grade on a bit of a curve given that he's a first year freshman. I just really like Number one, the way he's handled it, the way he's dealt with all that pressure that everybody's talking about. I mean, he's
just unruffled. I guess it's the best way to put it, you know, like he's been preparing for his whole life, which which he has, I guess, But he's just so man. And then and then the actual throws that he makes, and he's command of the offense. He makes the defense's account have to account for every blade of grass on the field. And and if you get a chance to watch this guy closely, you know, the normal stuff that
dazzles the average viewer. You know, the sixty yard bomb, you know, hitting a receiver and stride way downfield going vertical. I mean, that's impressive and all, but what blows me away is the shorter or intermediate type throws number one, the opposite hash out routes that you know, they're about eight or ten yards yardage wise, you know, but he's actually throwing the ball thirty five or forty yards and throwing it on a rope and hitting the receiver right
where he's supposed to be hit on timing route. And then also, and this is where I think it's abundantly clear that he's an upgrade over Kelly Bryant. It's just a quick little bubble throws horizontally that you have to do that The timing is so important. I mean, you have to get the fall out quickly and accurately. And that's an area where Kelly Bryant was very inconsistent, even at his best, you know, for all of his strength,
he just seemed to struggle with those throws. And now man, Lawrence just whips it out there so fast, and it's just it's right where it needs to be, where the running back or the receiver just never breaks stride. And then I'm actually earlier today, I was doing a video, a weekly video review segment. He had a throw against
Bosting College where he's running to his left. He's obviously right handed, run to his left and just uncourt this fifteen yard strike, just a pill to Hunter Renfro on the sideline and Kirk kurve Street was going nuts over And those are the throws that you're just I think that's in the NFL, folks. And you hear people say he could be a number one tick right now.
Yeah, well, it's a quarterback class coming out this year, for sure. Let me let's expand beyond Trevor Lawrence. One of the things that has taken me by surprise, if only because I can't follow Clemson as closely as I might, like, I didn't realize how good their wide receivers are. T Higgins and Amari Rodgers in particular. Now they're both young and maybe a bit overshadowed by the Trevor Lawrence storyline by just the defense as a whole, that storyline and
how tenacious they are. But the receiving core to me has definitely been a bit of a surprise, and in a very good way.
We look at that in the last year, Dion Kin and ray Ray McLeod, two pretty good receivers, right, absolutely, Yeah, both of those guys leave early for the NFL. And the sort of private reaction that I picked up from the coaches was, hey, like they they weren't losing any sleep over those two guys leaving. And those are two those were two five star recruits. I mean they didn't they did not achieve all that you know, most people
thought they were gonna achieve. Okay, but they were still two good receivers, two important weapons, and so you know, their issue last year was not having that sort of alpha dog receiver like Mike Williams who could just go up and get it, you know where you put it in his general vicinity and he's gonna get those fifty fifty balls.
The catch radius, right, that's right, that's right.
They also had Jordan Laggett in twenty sixteen, he made huge catches in big games. They had our Tavis Scott, yeah, who also made some big catches. Well, fast forwarding and now, well I'm sorry, fast forward in the last year in the in the in the Sugar Bowl. You know, Clemson
had several opportunities that were ruined by drop passes. Dean Kane dropped had three drops in that game, including a deep ball uh that could have been a game changer, including I think it was a third and long early on when Clemson needed to get some momentum that could have really helped. And then a pick six and a ball bounces off his hands and is taken back the
other way for a touchdown to basically end it. What I'm saying is they have more of an alpha dog presence at receiver now, and a lot of that is just physical stature. With t Higgins and Justin Ross, I mean, those are just two prototype NFL receivers, those boundary receivers who are just taller and bigger and and and can win those those fifty to fifty battles. And you mentioned Amari Rodgers. He's also, like you said, he's only a sophomore, but man, he's just a really really good player, and
he's only going to get better then. Oh, by the way, Hunter Renfro is still out of defenses on third down. You know it's funny. I just did a top six Hunter Renfro plays of his career because they're going to honor him and the other seniors on Saturday against Duke, and I say play instead of catch because I put
at number one. The number one play is Hunter Renfro's career at Clemson to date, not the touchdown catch for the National Championship, because I think you have to incorporate some degree of difficulty and he could make that catch in sleep. The tackle he made of Ryan Anderson early in the third quarter of that same game Alabama. Ryan Anderson is about to return a fumble for a touchdown to put Bama up twenty to twenty one to seven in the game is possibly over at that point, Well,
here can Hunter Renfro, who side slights this monster. It's like three hundred pounds heavier than he is. Clemson's defense comes up with the stop, hold him to a field goal, and everything still feels manageable at seventeen to seven. Anyway, Yes, Hunter Renfro is still somebody you have to be wary of, especially on third down. Sure.
Also, it surprises me that more people aren't talking about Travis Etn. He's ripping off eight and a half per carry, He's got fifteen touchdowns on the ground. He needs to be in the Heisman discussion. I know there seems to be this prevailing wisdom that it's going to be Tua or Kyler Murray, but Travis Etn needs to be in that discussion.
I would say he's just not getting enough carries, probably because they're just blowing everybody out and they have a legit rotation, you know, running back. I mean they have a good running back in Tavian Feasture, another good one and Adam Choice, and then a freshman and Lynn Dixon who looks like he has the makings of being a star later on. And so you know, I don't think the coaches are preoccupied with Okay, we got to get Etm to touches so he can get into this Heisman conversation.
But is he a Heisman worthy player? Absolutely? I mean, yeah, he's such a such a powerful, fast, aggressive runner, and he's he's still learning and so I think he's developing those instincts developing that vision and that confidence to run between the tackles, and boy.
He is just a load as someone who covers the team as closely as you do. What has surprised you in watching this twenty eighteen team?
You know, I thought coming into this the year that their secondary might be a bit of a liability. And it certainly seemed that way in the second game against Texas A and M when Jimbo Fisher's offense was just slicing them apart at the second and third levels. And I guess I should confine it to safety and not corner, because they are really good at corner. But you know, they have some depth issues there behind Tanner Muse, And I'm sorry they came into the season with some questions, uh,
some depth issues both that corner and safety. Rent Minibles was very nervous. But what has happened is well, Number one, they stayed healthy. They haven't had the injuries that they had last year. I mean they had quite a few injuries in the secondary last year through the whole season that that really nagged them. Tanner Muse has become a
really good safety this season, has really developed well. And is he's that uh, he's the safety, the strong safety that you know plays near the box, and it's just, man, he he is your physical guy who can really punish running backs in the gap and and sort of patrol that intermediate area and be that kind of enforcer. And then Kevon Wallace, a junior other safety as a really good player. And then at the corner spots, I mean
you got Trade von Mullen and aj Torrell. Those are two future NFL players, and man, they're just they are tall and physical. And so what happens is when you play offenses that are really good at a quick game, man, they just get up in the receivers grills and make it really difficult for them to get off the line. And then by that time, the defensive line is in the quarterback space. And so I mean that really happened
against Inncy State. I mean they just they just this whole defense just makes life a living hell for whoever they play. I mean, it's just it's got to be such a nightmare. And I felt so bad for Anthony Brown, Boston College's quarterback. Yeah, last Saturday, I mean their series, their first series, he just gets crushed.
What is the identity of a team that can beat Clemson knowing that they've got to go up against this defense, that they've got to try to stop this offense. What characteristics does a team need to possess in order to have a real chance of beating Clemson.
I would say one that can really stress you down the field, you know. I mean, if you look at a Brent Vinables has put together a masterpiece during his tenure at Clemson. But the one little I'm not gonna say weakness because I don't know if they I don't know if it rises to that level, because they're so dang good at all three levels, but the little blips
of the little periods of struggle that you see. I mean, this defense is so aggressive, I mean, it flows so hard to stop the run that sometimes they over pursue and that leaves them open. You know, you'll see a tight end slip behind the safety and be wide open on a case, and you know you'll see you'll see guys uncovered sometimes not a lot, not regularly, but it happens. And I think that's in large part a function of just how aggressive they are and how complex this defense is.
And so probably an offense that can stress you down the field. Also an offense that that is really good at at that tempo, because we have seen sometimes this defense struggles to get lined up and because Brent Venables, I mean, he just wants to get them into the perfect play every time. He wants to see what the offense is going to do before he makes his final call. I mean ninety eight percent of the time that that
is a strength. But there are some exceptions where they're not lined up and opposing offenses can sort of get to them. And that was really you know that they're loan two regular season losses the last two years, Syracuse and Pittsburgh. That's the common thread. If both of those teams went tempo and had all sorts of ships and and confused them and there were times where they couldn't get lined their defense couldn't get lined up in those games. And so, you know, I think it takes that type
of uh threat. I guess one one that that a spread offense that you know they can make things happen down the field, that has dynamic playmakers, and one that can also run tempo. And as I see it, there's only one team out yeah, yeah, same team that one hundred percent of college football followers are talking about as well.
So let me close out on this then, because it is the natural conclusion when we're talking about Clemson. If things play out the way I think things are going to play out, Clemson is going to be the number two seed headed into the college football Playoff. They stand an excellent chance of making it through that first round, be it against Notre Dame or anyone else, and eventually ending up at a game where they're playing Alabama. What kind of a chance do you give Clemson against Alabama.
Everyone's afraid of what this team has to offer, but Clemson certainly brings a lot on the defensive side, as we've discussed here, on the offensive side. Realistically speaking, how big of a mismatch is or isn't that game?
I don't think it's a mismatch. I've been saying this the last few weeks. My position has been if they played right now with Clinton win, probably not. But by the time January whatever seventh I guess, rolls around, after Trevor Lawrence has had that much longer to develop. Sure, after those young receivers we talked about, I've had more time to get more confident and comfortable. Boy, personally, you
look at the talent on both rosters. I personally think that if these two quarterbacks stay healthy, that this could be the most ridiculous national championship matchup in college football history.
And you know, it would be a very fitting end to the season because all year, as we've discussed on our show, I think some of the shine is off the season because it feels like there is a battle for number three behind Alabama in Clemson. It just feels like, naturally, those have been the best two teams all year. For them not to play in the championship would almost be a bit of a disservice.
Yes, and you know, I mean last year again, Albana's offense scored seventeen points in that game. You know they think they had like two hundred and fifty six yards. Now, granted, there's a way different Alabama offense than the one Clemson face, but it's also a way different Clemson offense than the
one Alabama face. I do think I love Alabama's secondary as far as the upside of those guys, those young dbs, like certain and some of the other words, McKinney is going to be a ridiculous talent, but they're still young and so I think there are opportunities for Clemson if they do play Alabama in the downfield passing game that can really stress Alabama and they can thereby open up some opportunities in the running game. And on top of that,
Alabama has blown everybody's doors off. What happens if you put that Alabama's offense in an uncomfortable situation where they're having a three and out every third drive instead of motoring down the field and being up twenty one to nothing before people are in their seats, you know, like Crimson is capable of doing that. And we saw Mississippi State. Boy, their defense is stout and they gave Alabama some problems.
And so I just I think it. You know, my take on this whole Obama Clemson thing is I am sort of I think it's a wonderful time in college football history because normally dynasties exist in different eras, right, and the fact that we have I mean, I'm not saying Clemson is on par with Alabama's dynasty, but they're getting but they're getting there, right, They're getting there. Yeah, And so I mean, what do we do? What do connoisseurs of college football talk about all the time. Oh man,
what if ninety five Nebraska played you know USC? Or what thousand? What one?
Miami?
Sure right? Or the or the eighties Jimmy Johnson Miami teams. You know, well, we have that right here. I believe in Alabama and Clemson and they're playing each other every year and it's incredible.
It's been a ton of fun to watch both of those programs develop, but in particular, Clemson has Dablos Sweeney's just done such an amazing job. Again, his name is Larry Williams. My guess is, if you're a Clemson fan, you'll know about Larry. But if you're not, if you want to read more of his fine work, going out to Tiger Illustrated dot com, or feel free to subscribe to the Clemson Dubcast podcast or check out his book Clemson Tough, Guts and Glory Under Dabo Sweeney. Larry, give
me one final prediction. Doesn't have to be too hot of a take if you're not comfortable with that, but give me one final prediction here before I let you go.
Oh Man, they might score eighty against South Carolina. I am not joking, okay, Hi, I've been around this rivalry since I was a kid. I have never, never, until this year, seen the entire game Cock fanbase. I'm talking ninety nine point nine per even the most eternal optimists, they are unanimous almost in saying they ain't got a chance, and it's crazy. It's uh boy. That offense, it just got shredded by Florida and they gotta they gotta go to Death Valley and face this, this machine of a
Clemson offense. It could get ugly. Actually no, I don't know if they'll score score eighty, but my prediction will be it's gonna get ugly.
All right. Well, there you have it again, Larry Williams, Tiger Illustrated dot Com. Thanks for giving us so much of your time and insight. I really appreciate it anytime.
Thanks TI