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You get some other odds and ends as well. We're going to start previewing games next week to help you along. So one more time, that's Playwinterwonders dot com. If nothing else, please do subscribe to the Solid Verbal out on Apple or Spotify, And while you're at it, go on out to the YouTube channel and do the same out there. Today we're going inside the Ropes on Brian Kelly's departure from Notre Dame and on the promotion of Marcus Freeman to be the next head football coach of the Irish.
I'm going to do that with our friend Pete Samson, longtime friend of the podcast from the Athletic. He had much of the early reporting on this story and he's warming up in the bullpen. Now we're going to talk about timelines, what went down behind the scenes, what happens next, all the good stuff. As I said, Dan's going to be back next week. So without further ado, let's just
jump right in. Alrighty, we are privileged to welcome back to the show longtime friend of the Solid Verbal from the Athletic, mister Pete Samson, Sir, how are you recovering?
Definitely recovering, That's how I am doing right now.
So I went back through our text thread from a week ago and I was out walking the dog. It was Monday the twenty ninth, it was five thirty two Eastern time, and that's when I saw your tweet come across that LSU was making Brian Kelly its top target. And it was in that moment where I almost forgot to clutch the leash of the dog and I was a little worried she'd run away with a quick movement,
because I was really taken aback by that. I was stunned, not at the notion that somebody would be interested in Brian Kelly, but just that it seemed like it came out of left field. And I texted with you at the time, and I got the sense that you were in a similar place where you got it. But at the same time, is this a joke? Should we take this seriously? And you didn't think it was going to
happen either until it actually did. Walk me through what you're thinking when you find out through sources or otherwise that this is a thing. How do you like place this inside your head? As is this a real threat? Is this not a real threat?
So Monday afternoon is sort of unfolding. I made the brilliant decision to stay on the West Coast for a couple of days of vacation after the Stanford game because nothing was going to happen with under in football. And I'm actually getting my eight year old in and out and Bruce Feldman calls me while we're in the drive through line and we start talking and that at that
point it was sort of on. But I was I was more of the Okay, this is a game of chicken, and they're both going to pull up at the last moment and figure out a way to sort of keep keep the good times rolling, so to speak. But then when I started calling sources around Notre Dame sort of at like not above the athletic department, like administration level, so like, is this happening beyond just like, you know, can we get a new facility built? You know, can
we get a new contract in? And when you hear that the people who make the decisions at Notre Dame are worried about this, that they're having discussions with Brian Kelly and they're strategizing like all right, is this a situation where you just want a new challenge and in that case we wish you well, Or is this situation where you want more money, Well we can make that work. Facilities,
we can make that work. But as soon as I knew that Notre Dame was having the conversations at that level with the perspective of like this is real, well then it was real. Then it stopped being a sort of a trace Armstrong agent move and started being like, Okay, this is happening. It might not happen today, but like everyone is, we're on the path to Brian Kelly being the next LSU head coach at a moment when man, I did not think that was how that day was going to go at all.
And it escalated quickly. It happened very quickly, So the rumors came out and I don't know the exact timing, but I want to say within a couple hours later, I think it was Pete Thammel, maybe it was somebody else.
Yep, now it's Pete.
Within a matter of hours, it was like, Yeah, this thing's going to happen, and it just it happened so quickly. I think that's really been one of the themes of this coaching carousel. We saw it with Lincoln Riley, we saw it with Brian Kelly, these really quick movements almost without any warning.
That was that was surprising to me because there really was no back and forth between Brian Kelly and Notre Dame at that point, which I think just sort of speaks to the relationship or lack of one between him and Jack Swarbrick, Like if you don't have a strong relationship, then you you're not going to go to that person
and be like, hey, you know, let's talk. I really would like to stay Like you're gonna be like no, no, no, no, this guy's going to pay me one hundred million dollars over ten years, Like I'm going to make that move. So yeah, it was quick. I think that you saw saw how Notre Dame players took that when Brian Kelly put out my love is limitless message in the sort of team chat that night and then came back for
his farewell on Tuesday morning. So it was quick, and I mean Notre Dame was already talking to Marcus Freeman about should you be the next head coach that Monday night. That conversation was already happening before Brian Kelly told the team that he's no longer their head coach.
I want to come back to that, but you mentioned the Swarbrick Kelly relationship. Swarbrick in his press conference after the fact, indicated that he saw signs. He called it restlessness after working with somebody for a decade plus. What was their relationship like? Because I think both of them referred to their quote unquote friendship. They obviously were close professional associates, but it did get it did give the impression that Swarbricks saw this coming from like a mile away.
I think that Swarbricks saw the potential for it at some point, But to say that he anticipated this happening in this way on this timeline, I think is a reach. So, I mean, their relationship, I think it's been good for the most part, but I you know, we had reported this out on the Athletic, like Trace Armstrong, Brian Kelly's agent had been pushing for a meeting with Notre Dame post mel Tucker contract to talk about facilities, talk about
conversation like repeatedly, almost daily. That meeting never happened. So and that started about a week before the decision to leave. So it's, you know, where their telltale signs. It's almost like you sort of reverse engineer it to find those signs after the fact. But I don't think as things are unfolding that anyone around Notre Dame would say, oh, yep, we saw this coming. You know, there was always a
danger of this. You know, Brian kelly leaving doesn't shock me, sort of in a vacuum, but the way he left and where he left too, is really kind of a stunner.
The facilities thing is that real? Is that an excuse at a place like Notre Dame because they're not playing on gravel?
Right?
Yeah, right, Like they've put serious investment into an indoor facility and otherwise around Notre Dame. Like I get that, there's a conversation you're always trying to make things better. It does feel like we've gotten to the point, at least at some programs where coaches are able to use that as an excuse like, hey, they wouldn't upgrade the facilities. Now I got to go elsewhere.
Yeah, it's not a situation where I mean you see this other places where coaches will be like, yeah, we don't even have an indoor facility, Like Notre Am has a really nice indoor facility, it's like about three years old. What they don't have is sort of the training table functionality that the teams that are winning in the playoff have. They don't have I think the mental performance space Brian
Kelly thought that they should have. So there's the you know, so facilities investment is necessary, but it's not like their weight room is a YMCA. They they have good facilities, do they have like the best facilities in the country. No, nor is nor do I think Brian Kelly's facilities argument is like, why don't we have a slide in our in our lobby like Clemson, Why don't we have a putt putt golf course? Why don't we have a barber shop? Like those are pods like at LSU, Yeah, right, like
sleep pods. I mean they had float tanks up here. So if it has a functional element like Notre Dame is down for that, they want to do that, or Brian Kelly wanted to do that, the whiz bang bells and whistles like Notre Dame knows that is all kind of a show and that's not really why you're coming to Notre Dame in the first place.
So let's talk back through this timeline. Then you say Monday already they're talked to Freeman. Was he the top target because there was that slip up, whether it was just an inference by Brian Kelly or an indicator of something maybe that he knew, I you know, no one really knew where to place that, but was freaming the top target interview.
I don't know if he was, like in a universal sense, because look, if if Cincinnati was not in the playoff, then I think probably Luke Fickle is your top target. But look, Cincinnati's in the playoffs, so he's he's not available because there's a there's a world in college football where coaches don't leave playoff contenders right before the playoff. You know, Luke Fickle lives in that world. So it's you know, if Luke Fickle was available, this is probably
a different conversation. But I mean, Matt Campbell was one hundred percent available. Matt Campbell would have taken this shot. But I don't think Notarame really pursued that in any capacity. And when you talk about sort of the speed of everything, with the speed of the departures of the hire was also a bit shocking because you go, you're all in on a thirty five year old, first time head coach in a matter of forty eight hours, seventy two hours.
You know, there was a social media campaign from Notre Dame's roster. There was a bit of a social media campaign from Notre Dame's commitments. You know, I don't think you want to have teenagers make your most important higher but that was part of it. But I think ultimately what got Freeman over the line is like when everything hit the fan, the people who make the decisions at Notre Dame, like the people who are advising Jack Swarbrook,
were already in on Freeman. It's not like Freeman had to go and build a relationship with a big time donor. You know. Basically, the class of people at Notre Dame whose names are on buildings, they already liked Marcus Freeman as their next as the next head coach here the minute Brian Kelly departed, so that that I think was sort of critical on how quickly this all was.
Why do you think they were so in on Freeman?
Well, I mean, if you watched his press conference, he watched the video of him coming into the locker room, That's that's who he is. I mean, it's not a show. So if you spend time around Freeman, that's what you get. He's just such a dynamic com communicator and it's like one of those guys there. I think it's very it's rare.
It's difficult for coaches to sort of manage up and manage down, like the ability to get into a living room with a seventeen year old linebacker from South Carolina but also talk to a fortune five hundred CEO with sort of equal dexterity is rare. I think it's even rarer that you can do that without it seeming like a show as you don't. It doesn't come across with Marcus Freeman as an act or that he's trying to
sort of move between audiences. He just does. So I think that that is to me, the biggest part of the whole thing with him. You know, I've written a bunch of times just the authenticity really comes through. And that's not just with players, it's with trustees, it's with CEOs, you know, certain with players and their parents. So that I think you just added up. That's that's where you kind of get the kind of the full package.
Well, and you've written a lot about the new energy at Notre Dame, and my sense is it's that authenticity that is really what's coming across.
You know.
I asked Mama, h my mom, Notre Dame enthusiasts before I did this with you, do you have any questions for Pete? And she said, yeah, ask him why Brian Kelly's such a dick. So I'm not going to phrase it like that, thank you, but I have found very interesting over the last decade plus with Brian Kelly. I'm interested in his character arc because he's a guy who
has been wildly successful. Everywhere he's been, He's been I think universe perversally spoken of from people who have dealt with him as generically a nice guy, but yet universally around college football, outside of a couple little tribes, he's sort of viewed as the villain. And I've always tried to figure out why is that? And then the accent happened, and that's why. You know, the accent's goofy, and of course it's meaningless and we're all gonna make jokes about it.
But that's why the accent is actually kind of important because I think what I get from the accent is, aha, Brian Kelly might be fake nice, and that's why people don't connect with him in the same way they do Marcus Freeman. That's why the energy feels different. You don't have to like go through all of that, peete, But do you get that same sense that that authenticity is something that was lacking at Notre Dame.
I do I think that. I mean, we always describe Brian Kelly as a Boston politician, because that he grew up in that in that world, and that served him incredibly well at Notre Dame. Oh yeah, that's why he made it twelve years here through like legitimate tragedy early on he was able to sort of get to the other side of that. But in the same way that when you talk to Marcus Freeman and it is authentic and natural and you don't feel like he's straining or
trying to connect with you. Brian Kelly turned that on and off. With Marcus Freeman. There's there's not a switch, it's just like who he is. So that part of it, I think is real. That that is part of the energy. And I mean, look, you got twenty five years younger with your head coach. You got cool at Notre Dame with your new head coach, Like these are new worlds
for Notre Dame all of a sudden. I mean you think about the three head coaches before him, Well, let's go for like Bob Davey, Tyrone Willingham, Charlie Weiss, Brian Kelly. What was cool, young, hip, energetic or authentic about any of them? Like nothing? And so you're like Marcus Freeman,
I think for the Nurian fan base. You might as well be glowing when he's on the podium at his press conference, because it just it suddenly makes things feel like possible and optimistic at a place that I think has sometimes been over backwards to tell you how hard it is to win here. Now you have a head coach who is not just leaning into that, but like you feel like, okay, well this is this is the guy that maybe can actually climb that mountain.
It was a complete rebranding in like seventy two hours.
Yes, absolutely wild. I mean I see like the family photo that they've shot at Midfield of him and Joanna and the six kids, and you're like, holy crap, like this this family is They're just like sparkling here, like this is a Christmas card all of a sudden at
Notre Dame. And yeah, he's onder because he hasn't lost a game, but I hasn't won one either, But it just is it's just this new energy that you feel around from the NOTEM fan base, and like you, being an notarime fan, can relate to this, Like when is the last time the RAM fan base was united on anything? Well, I think they're pretty much united on.
This one well, and even Notre Dame haters. Pete right, I was getting text messages from Penn State fans, from USC fans, people that are very close friends, who have never once rooted for Notre Dame, saying I hope Notre Dame makes the playoff? What year is this?
How did this happen so quickly? America's team?
Yeah, I made the joke. Maybe that's Brian Kelly's lasting achievement Notre Dame, not building the program back to a point of stability, but building them to a point of likability now in absentia.
It's pretty wild that you you hear that nationally from fans of other schools, you know, even I think even people who don't it's not even just people who like or dislike Notre Dame. I think it's people who are like casually invested in college football, don't really know anything about it, and then they see Marcus Freeman like all right, like I can get behind that guy, like oh man, look at a video of him in the locker room.
Like it just I think it gets to people who are outside of like the tribal nature of college football fandom in a way that Notre Dame just doesn't, and most schools don't, but Marcus Freeman. That's I mean, I think that's part of the authenticity really coming through. People gravitate towards that.
Well, nobody likes the guy who chases the bag, and they dislike that character more than they would otherwise dislike Notre Dame. And so it was just an incredible turn of phrase in a very short period of time. I'm getting these text messages. You've got to be kidding me, like, how did we arrive here? Anyway? That's neither here nor there. Let's go back to the Freeman timeline. So you say they start the conversation on Monday in earnest trying to
gauge his interest. Were there any other names like Fickle as you said, probably not available because he's not going to leave in the middle of a playoff run. Matt Campbell available, maybe not under a serious consideration. Who else was actually a candidate for this thing outside of Freeman?
Yeah, that's I think Pat forty s I reported that there were eight sort of candidates, Like if you just had a board, you'd have eight names on it, and then they quickly crossed off I think five or six of them. So I think you got down to Fickle
and Freeman quickly. Like my sources indicate that Campbell was never seriously approached for it, So I don't believe there was another formal interview the best I can tell, So it was they quickly got to Marcus Freeman, which you kind of have to do in seventy two hours, right,
you know. Jack Swarbrick said, like Freeman was the only non sitting head coach who was a candidate, which I think sort of speaks to where Notre Dame is as a program today versus when Brian Kelly showed up, uh, Tuesday night, Tommy Reese flew back from California to sort of interview for the OC job, or not interview for it, but like talk to Swarbrick about like, all right, where do you want what do you want to do? Where do you want this to go? You know, he wanted
to stay. Brian Kelly was throwing a ton of money at him to come to l s U No name. I think, to my surprise, personally basically matched that. And so that stays the strength coach Matt Bayless stays. And at that point, I mean my understanding talking to sources is. Once you had Bayless and Reese locked up on Tuesday, then Freeman became a much better candidate because what do you what do you want a first time head coach who's on defense not to have to worry about what
offense am I running? Well, okay, you have Tommy Reese here, who who I for? How much? I think people sort of give him crap? Is very popular in the locker room, and I do think he has a ton of sort of of play calling ability and smarts, and I think he's just sort of a rising star in the industry. Matt Bayless, incredibly popular with the locker room, has been
one of the biggest architects of the turnaround. After twenty sixteen, he shows up after that season suddenly notre name is good again, So that I think once you took those off the table, then Marcus Freeman as a candidate, it was like, Okay, well he's the first time head coach, but string program's in a good shape and we know what offense were running, so what about this guy? And
then he interviews with Jack Swarbrick on Wednesday. At that point, Freeman sort of goes underground for about twenty four hours while they're doing background checks and figuring out, you know, you're avoiding the Georgia Leary Part two situation, and then
Friday morning he emerges in the locker room. So it was I think, but basically by Wednesday night or Thursday warning, I believe that's when they sort of knew it was going to be him, and then they just had to check a ton of boxes until Friday morning.
So they get Reese and the strength coach in place before they get Freeman, which by the way, is not terribly uncommon among first time ahead football coaches. You hear about that all the time, where the administration has more of an active hand in setting the staff that will be around the head guy. I don't know if I remember hearing that at Notre Dame, though, Like it's usually the guy coming in is the one who's going to
set precedent. He's going to be the one who sets his system and you know, dots all the ey's and crosses the t's. Do you get the sense that Freeman was I guess more attracted to that type of situation where he had that stability or he was sort of given like no choice, like this is the way it's going to be. We want these guys either take it or leave it.
More the former than the ladder.
Uh.
But I don't think Freeman had any sort of like, well, I want to run a four wide vertical offense and if I can't do that, then I'm going to go be the head coach at Miami. Like I don't think that was ever sort of his vibe. So he gets along with Reese. Reese gets along with him. They have a good professional relationship. I think they have a good personal relationship from what I can gather talking to people
over at Notre Dame. So there was no sort of hesitancy about like, well, I have some very strong ideas of what I want to do offensively, you know. I think they want to stick with the offense that they're running that actually, you know, accentuates the personnel that they have. So I think it just removed a huge question from Freeman's plate. But it also removed a huge question from Notre Dame about Freeman because they had Reese ready to.
Go because of all this. Do you get any sense that they're relieved they're not in the playoff?
No, don't, I don't you know? Are they are they gonna certainly they're not gonna say that out loud, but it would have been incredible to see that America's team happen for Notre Dame, you know, if they're going up
against Michigan or Georgia or whoever. But I would say, I it's not the worst thing in the world that Marcus Freeman's coaching debut is not against Kirby Smart or Jim Harbaugh, so that you know, they go against a team that's losing its defensive coordinator Ohio State, you know, I think a team that they're favored in and as you know, like when Noram ends up in these major bowls, they're running into JaMarcus Russell or Ezekiel Elliott or Joey
Bosa or Santonio Holmes and Ted Ginn like Oklahoma State is not that. So it's it's a good chance for for Noraim to go out in a major bowl game where they're favored, which they have not been favored in a long long time.
Do we know what Marcus Freeman's getting paid.
We do not. I believe it is. I don't know if it's around where Kelly was making, but we never knew what Kelly was making either you know, I think the assumption with Kelly was sort of seven to eight million. I would be shocked if Notre Dame went above that for our first time head coach. But based on my understanding of Reese being the highest paid coordinator of Notre Dame history, I think that Notre Dame sort of saw this as like, all right, you know, these are our guys.
We're going to invest in them, We're going to back them. So I don't think it's a situation at all where Notre Dame was like, well, we can save a few bucks on Marcus Freeman. You know, I think they were all in on backing him financially.
What changes from this point forward? Maybe there's a different energy. We know that recruiting has I think continued on on a very good trajectory. There haven't been a ton of flips or decommits anything like transfers, right, I mean, everybody seems pretty much in lockstep with the move. They like Marcus Freeman. The video is definitely indicative of how the team feels with this move.
They like him.
There will be tweaks, though, and I'm wondering if you've got any sense for what those tweaks might look like because probably not in the short term. You know, it's going to look like business as usual when they play in the Fiesta Bowl against Oklahoma State. But it's a tough schedule next year, as you know, I mean there's five very losable games on that schedule next season. What kinds of nuances or small tweaks do you think we can expect to see maybe before next season?
Who calls the plays defensively will be fascinating to me because I think that Freeman had a slow start to the year that then got very hot as a defensive play caller here. Certainly his track record Cincinnati is what it is, but he didn't have autonomy at Cincinnati. Running the defense is Luke fickle and then Marcus Freeman called the defense, you know, similar to what Reese and Kelly were like here. You know, Reese ran the offense, but
Kelly had oversight of it. So, you know, does Freeman have enough time in the day to be the lead recruiter on every prospect that no names? After which he said that he would I take him at his word. Only hesitancy is there's like, there's only twenty four hours in the day here, So how he runs that will be interesting. You know, Can Notre Dame get the facility upgrade that Brian Kelly wanted built in the next couple
of years. I believe that they will. But in terms of the day, the day to day, you know, Freeman has said it multiple times, and I'll be interested to sort of dig deeper with him when I get a chance to sit down with him. It's like, you say, nothing's changing, but you want to enhance, Like, well, you know, enhancement is a change, right, So.
Is that.
Facilities? Is that how you manage the player's time. Is that Notre Dame's ability to take undergraduate transfers more seamlessly than they can which is not something that they've done. I don't really know, And I do think you look at Notre Dame and think, all right, how the program is running day to day? You you do not want to change a whole lot. They've won forty two straight
games against unranked teams. They're aknown commodity every Saturday, whether fifty four wins over the last five years, to the playoff twice. Like the question to me is like what needs to recruiting needs to change? That's that's if Notre Dame is going to climb the mountain. They're going to
do it through recruiting. I don't think there's any whiz bang operational changes Notre Dame is going to make that's going to affect the program in a serious way other than how do you figure out how to get better talent coming in the door? How do you get two Kyle Hamilton's every year, or how do you get three Michael Mayers instead of just one of each?
I can't remember another time, at least, you know, over the last twenty years. I mean, you've been covering the team for twenty plus years now, Pete, and maybe you've got better perspect on this than I do. But it seems as if the appointment, the promotion of Marcus Freeman has almost given more instant credibility to Notre Dame on the recruiting trail than before, like even with those other coaches.
You know, we can take Weiss as an example. Weiss was also viewed as a bit of a risk, a first time head coach, someone who had familiarity, in his case with Notre Dame. He was mostly sold to people, I think on the strength of what he did with Tom Brady and the new England Patriots, rightfully so, but there was never quite that lift in the recruiting game that I think we've seen in a very short period
of time now under Marcus Freeman. And so that's why, even though this is a bit of a risk to put a first time guy in charge of a program that's already performing at such a high level, I don't think I'm as weirded out by it, because we know the recruiting is going to continue on that trajectory, and if anybody's going to figure out how better to sell Notre Dame to recruits, it's going to be Marcus Freeman.
You know, It's I would disagree a little bit on Weiss. You look at the classes that he signed. He signed better classes than what Kelly had signed, and it like it was a it was a real mess early on. But then you're talking about you know, Golden Tate, Michael Floyd, Jimmy Clausen, Kyle Rudolph. You know, he signed some really good talent, but you know, just the program did not fit together. He didn't know how to run a defense, never could get the coordinator right there, which again kind
of as a corollary to Freeman and Reeese. So, but the point with recruiting me in the uptick like you have an aggressive, young, good looking guy who is going to be able to relate to these players in a way that a sixty year old is not going to be able to. I mean, I always used to joke like if Notre Dame got every prospect whose parents wanted the kid at Notre Dame, like Bob Davey would have won four hundred games, he would still be the head coach. But that's not how it works. Like, you got to
get the prospect on board. And I cannot imagine there's a lot of head coaches out there that are going to do a better job relating to kids than Marcus Freeman. I was. There was a four star, five star safety, Xavier Wanpa who committed to Iowa this week and Notre Dame was in it, but the Catholic school in northern Indiana was not really much of a selling point. But
I had our Iowa reporter Scott Doctorman. He went to the press conference for the commitment and asked both the Xavier and his mom about Marcus Freeman, and they the mom said, if Xavier was making a decision purely based on the head coach, like it was Notre Dame. Like Notre Dame's head coach was was a value add to
the recruitment in Marcus. You never heard that before. No, that is, you did not hear any prospect any where say like, I'm going to Notre Dame because of Brian everything else here with the degree and the network and the tradition and all the other stuff. Like you know that a lot of schools have great tradition degrees are
you know a lot of schools have good academics. But to have that here with the head coach as a dynamic recruiter, that that, to me has a chance to sort of really throw gas on, you know, a fire that has gotten better, but with Marcus leading the way, I think I would be fascinated to sort of see where that goes.
You've been covering the team for a while. You saw the end of the Bob Davey era. You saw the Oldleary debacle, the move to Willingham, the Weiss debacle, and the rise again of Notre Dame football under Brian Kelly and now Marcus Freeman. That's at least five Did I miss anything that I get all of them.
I think you got yeah, I think you got everything there.
Can we rank those? Can we rank those? Just in terms of, you know, the Pete Sampson like excitability index. You know, where are you at with respect to Marcus Freeman versus the excitement that initially was very much there with Charlie Weiss versus you know, I'd imagine we have to put the O'Leary thing or the Willingham era near the bottom because that whole thing was sort of a debacle.
Kelly was always kind of like the smart higher and not anything that felt sexy in the moment, but definitely the kind of thing that made a lot of like practical sense. The Freeman one feels like it might be at the very top.
Yeah, I think there's there's certainly some recency bias that I'm trying to guard against, but I can't quite fend off based on you know, what you're seeing from the team and the press conference and the recruiting energy. So in terms of excitement, Freeman would be one. I would still put Kelly too, because that was a time where you're like, well, not only football is a hot and this guy has won everywhere he's been, So if it
doesn't work with this guy. It might not work ever, so you felt like there was some air of certainty there. Willingham would definitely be last. I would put O'Leary above him, based purely on the by George It's o Leary t shirts that they made and hang out and handed out at his press conference.
And the resume thing was so ridiculous too. I mean, it was so ridiculous in hindsight we look back and you know, I mean I was never the biggest Georgia Leary fan. The resume thing was so goofy in hindsight, and Willingham getting getting caught up in that. He didn't do anything to deserve it. He was just in a really bad situation on the back end of that O'Leary debacle. That yeah, I mean, you almost have to put him last by default.
Yeah, so Weiss would be in the middle. I mean, the bluster, you know, the way that that thing started with, you know, nineteen wins in two years, as it went to the BCS game twice they had that you know, the USC his signature win the loss to USC against in two thousand and five, like that was that was kind of a that was probably the single most like energetic game that I've covered in twenty one years. But yeah, the excitement around Marcus Freeman I think is at a
different level. And that may be a byproduct of like the access we have through social media to Marcus Freeman and seeing how the players react. But I have a very difficult times thinking like, yes, there was some video shot on VHS of the players meeting Charlie Weiss and they were just as excited to meet him as they were to meet Marcus Freeman last week.
Well, you bring up a good point with Weiss though, and you know I'm not the first person to say this, but Weiss, to some extent, was the victim of his own early success. He did very well, very quickly, and then as it diminished, as it dwindled off, that was when it started to come off the swivel a little bit. Marcus Freeman, I think, is in a much different situation now. The program's in a good spot and recruitings at an
all time high. They've got a great roster that was young this year that I think has a lot of room to improve, but they start out hot next year. Yes, right on the road against Ohio State. There's also a game in Vegas against BYU, which is probably not a cupcake. There's a Clemson game at home. Clemson's going to be better. There's a Boston College game, which Boston College is always kind of at Notre Dame's throat and they will be better. And then they close out the year at USC after
USC has a full season under Lincoln Riley. So it's not an easy schedule by any stretch of the imagination. I wonder how people will feel if you and I are talking a year from now and Notre Dame goes eight and four.
Yeah, I mean people will be disappointed for sure. Kind of question my mail bag today about out, you know, if this doesn't work, what happened? And then you look at the schedule which you just brought up, But it's you know, it's not that they have Clemson in Ohio State home and home this year, next year, and then again in twenty twenty three, and then you have Texas A and M home and home in twenty four to twenty five. USC and Lincoln Riley is not going to
be USC. Clay Hilton, Yeah, I didn't even include BYU in there, But you look back at Brian Kelly was three and eight against top ten teams in twelve years. Everybody it was three in ten. Excuse me, Like Marcus Freeman could play as many top ten teams in his first four years as Brian Kelly played in twelve. So the schedule is completely different than what Brian Kelly faced.
So that that I will be interested to sort of see if Nor Dame fans sort of grade Marcus freemant on a curve, not less because he's the first time head coach, and more because he's just playing really good teams all the time, and Brian Kelly did not. Toward the end of his tenure. It's you know, the guy had three top ten wins in twelve years. That's that is not good. You know that you have to deliver
on that stage more than Brian Kelly did. So Marcus Freeman is going to be on that stage a lot, and he's going to be learning how to deal with it while he's on it, and that that's very difficult. So I think that Not Name's fan base will probably accommodate that a little bit. Certainly in his first year they're like, all right, that's that excitement that you felt with that locker room video and that press conference. Let's see if that maintains after you lose by fourteen points
or seventeen points in Columbus. I don't know, but I think that it would be wise if you're a no name fan base to have some perspective that you're you hired a guy that has to learn on the job. You accept that today, you also have to accept that in September or October, November.
And I think people can tolerate eight and four. The problem is the schedule. It's a really difficult schedule. Fans can tolerate eight and four if it's like an Arkansas eight and four, right, Like, Yeah, you watch the team, you know they're better than their record would indicate. But it really is a product of the schedule. What fans don't like to tolerate, and I know this well, is what happened at Penn State. James Franklin has done great things in state college, but he lost a bunch of
games this year. They didn't have depth behind their quarterback. I mean, we could talk till we're blue in the face about what went wrong at Penn State. But that's the reason why fans are very quickly turning on James Franklin because it felt like they left a lot on
the table. So it'll be interesting to see what happens, as you said, in a very short period of time here for Marcus Freeman, knowing that they've got this kind of schedule in front of them, I'm curious to see what he does a defensive coordinator, you know, as you alluded earlier, have we heard anything else? I know it's probably very early, but we have any kind of indication as to where he might go in that capacity.
We don't. I mean, on the one hand, you could promote Mike Elston, who's been the defensive line coach here for twelve years, has been passed over for the DC job a few times, including for Marcus Freeman. Mike Mickens has never been a coordinator. Played with Marcus Freeman in high school. He's the corners coach. They coached together at
Cincinnati before Mickens moved over here two years ago. So there are a couple options there, and you know, we'll but we'll notre Dame go outside and find a coach who maybe is a little bit more veteran, has some different ideas. That's that's possible, But if you're running Marcus Freeman's defense, I'm not sure that you need to go outside and get somebody who's incredibly experienced in a different system that you're not going to run anyway. So I'm
not sure where they go with that. You know, special teams is open. I would love to see them make a run at somebody like Kerry Coombs from Ohio State, who's sort of done a little bit of everything. Ohio Ties, you know, knows, Marcus Freeman knows, you know, Mike Elston. They coached together at Cincinnati under Brian Kelly. So it's I would like to see them get some experience on the staff, like it doesn't need to all be thirty
year olds. But I don't know what Marcus Freeman has in mind for like philosophically, what he needs in a DC.
Well, it'll be fascinating. It's been I think one of the more fascinating stories throughout the coaching carousel. It's already been one of the more active coaching carousels that we've seen in recent memory. But the rise of sort of the first time head coach. We're seeing it at Oklahoma as well, we've seen it elsewhere around college football. That's sort of been a cool story that I don't know we necessarily saw coming at the start of all this.
So we'll definitely be tuned into you to see what else you have to offer, what else your sources are telling you as we go through bowl season, most of the off season here and build towards twenty twenty two. But it's been it's been interesting to watch. I hope you're able to get some sleep now. Are you still on the West Coast?
No? No, I've had long since return to South Bend. I saw at the press conference, so yes, when Jack Serbrick did his immediate sort of crisis management press conference at ten am Eastern, that was seven am Pacific, where I was in a hotel room trying not to wake up my kids. What did you do with the eight year old in that scenario that you described earlier when you got the call from how did he deal? He got in and out? Yeah, he got in and out and ate and ate it in the back of the car.
And then I was like, all right, guys, this this might be the end of my vacation. I know you guys are here for another day, but like, this might be it for me. So how much do they care they more than I thought. They had some strong opinions about Brian Kelly that I will not stay live. But they also they also seem to really like Marcus Freeman. I think they're picking up on that energy, so that a new day for them as well.
Kids are a good judge of character. Man Pete Sampson from The Athletic go read him if you like Notre Dame Am or just if you like college football. He does a great job. Check out the podcast he does with our other friend Matt for Tuna Out of the Shamrock.
You can listen.
Just go to the Athletic dot com. Pete, I wish you well. I know we talk every so often when things like this happen, but it's always a pleasure to get your insight.
Yeah, it's my pleasure. Thanks guy.
All Right, that's Pete Sampson. Don't forget to check him out over at the Athletic. He's at Pete Sampson Underscore on Twitter. So make sure you throw our guy a follow and thank him for coming on the show. Final housekeeping note here before we let you go, we did draw a winner for the RG three Mini Helmet Roland Stewart, Rolin Stewart. I'm not sure exactly how you say the name,
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