The Labyrinth of Enlightenment

So what do you get when you cross near death experience, situations, out of body experiences, interactions with the visible entities, with the challenges of disbelief, isolation, substance, misuse, and skepticism towards spirituality. Well, of

course you get this week's guest. Now, today we dive into what exactly attaining enlightenment in today's world really means, how the ego can serve as both a barrier and a teacher, and even what roles trauma, suffering and survival play, and how these difficult experiences can be catalysts for profound spiritual breakthroughs. This is a very full episode of The Skeptic Metaphysicians, and it starts now. My name is Will and I'm gar unlike moulderin Scully, want to believe.

So we've embarked in a journey of discovery. We've talked to people deeply entrenched in the spiritual and metaphysical world. We've thrown ourselves into weird and wonderful experiences. I even joined a coven of witches and wait, you joined a coven yep, all on the interest of finding something, anything, that will prove that there's something beyond this physical three dimensional world we all live in. This is the skeptic metaphysicians. Ray Catania, Welcome to the Skeptical and Positions.

We are so excited to have you on the show. It's an honor and a privilege to be with you today. Thank you, guys, I really appreciate you having me. Well, I'm impressed that he said that before the interview. I know. Well, that's because it's before the interview. Well, you might just be slipping out of the end. Where do you go? Well, longtime listeners have known this about us, and we can either confirm or deny that one of us in the room might have been looking

for spiritual enlightening, pretty enlightenment pretty much their entire life. I can either confirm or deny that. So the very first question that comes to mind, because you are the guy that is going to help us all to spiritually awaken. Oh boy, what what could that theoretical person be doing wrong that they can't actually find their way to spiritual enlightenment? Oh my gosh. Well,

that there are so many hypotheticals that there could be there. First and foremost hypothetically, of course, I would say that we need to define enlightenment and are we speaking of enlightenment like the Buddha's enlightenment or are we talking about awakenings, because sometimes people refer to enlightenment as awakenings, and I think we have several awakenings on the way to enlightenment. I know I'm not enlightened, and I'm not prepared to say that I am. And I'm definitely a life longer

just like the rest. Maybe I'll make it, I hope too. But I've had a lot of awakenings. And what can prevent an awakening or a next level up of consciousness? Things like not cracking the ego, still having it be a barrier between you and the rest of the world, perception, changing your perception, altering it, or not being able to alter it. I should say to where nothing is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so, right. Shakespeare said that in Hamlet, and it's very very

true and profound. We decide what's good and what's bad. Right, So that is There's a few things that I talk about, but two of the big ones is the ego and the fact that we really have to remember that there is nothing that's good or bad. I mean, you're going to and of course, there's the exceptions of some real tragedies and things of that nature, But for the most part, we get pretty aggravated over little silly things, don't we. Though, yes, all the time, did we mention

we had a day today? Right? It's so true because you go through the whole day thinking, Okay, this is just a little thing. It's just a little thing of just a little spec dust on the spinning sphere that's going around the cosmos that intestamately small compared to And yet, Jared, how did you not use your blinker when you turn just now a classic example.

Absolutely, it's so easy to lose your way. And then when you bring it into into the conversation of spiritual awakenings when you really need to be in the moment and understand that everything happens for a reason and everything that we experience actually helps to grow us and shape us until we actually are And we've asked this question a lot, but how do you how do you manage to keep that topmost of mind when you are in this rat race that we call a

life Right now? Yeah, it's I have one foot in and one foot out, And I should really say that because you know, I'm not one hundred percent on one side or the other. I still have a mortgage for it's put through college, et cetera, et cetera. So I'm very much in the rat race. But at the same time, I had an awakening when I was writing the second book. I got to the end of the second book, and I had been working on this for years. I mean,

this wasn't something. It just like poof and happened. I had been doing something and I call retraining the brain, and it's really retraining the mind. But that didn't rhyme. So I went with brain. And it's a catch here. And so I was retraining myself every time. You know, if a car cut me off or something like that, I would I would change my perception from the idiot just cut me off to the idiot never hit

me. And this is great. And you keep doing that over and over and over, and one day it clicked and it did it all by itself. There was a moment in time when I should have been livid. And you know, I grew up a lot of trauma, a lot of violence, a lot of anger, not a happy upbringing by any means. And then I pushed the envelope. Further, for those who know my story, it's pretty pretty rough, and so my go to emotion for everything was always

anger. Right, And so here comes this time, after several years of doing this training, I had a car accident and I was driving my car and it was an expensive car, and I thought that was a big deal at the time because my father had an expensive car, so I thought I was supposed to have one. Right now, I realize it's just a piece of tin that gets me from point A to point B. But at the

moment, I had an accident and I hit a deer. And normally the old ray would have been ranting and raving and yelling and screaming, and who knows what I would have done. I really don't know, But what happened was none of that. In fact, a feeling of calmness took over my entire body and all I cared about was the deer. Did I hurt the deer? I thought I really did, because you know, it flipped over and over and over, it was in the ice and snow, and I

really thought it was going to be dead. And now what am I going to do with the dead deer? And I got out and I went and I picked her up. She stood up and like, I've never touched a deer. I don't know too many people will have, but you know, we kind of had this moment. She looked at me. I looked at her. I was like, hey, I'm sorry. She's like I'm sorry too, and she walked off and I wasn't hurt, and she's not hurt. My car is trashed, but it's just the car, right, It's

just the car. So I didn't have that reaction. And that was the first moment when I knew that my life had completely changed. But I didn't know who the heck I was anymore. Why what did you just because you see your reaction. Yeah, so I don't know what I'm going to do any You know. What happens is is you're so used to acting a certain way and doing things a certain way, and I'm trying to reframe it for the better. And I accomplished that, but then I don't know who or

what I am. I remember I was telling the story to my acupuncturist the next day and she's ball and she's just crying. That's the most beautiful thing I've ever heard. And and I'm like, yeah, but I don't know who I am anymore, Like I don't know how I'm going to react. Am I gonna be able to protect my family if somebody breaks in the house, because I can't get pissed off. Like nothing bothers me. I don't care. The bills come, I just throw them in a trash if I

feel like paying them my payment. If I don't, I don't like. I literally don't care. No one's going to come and put a gun to my head. I've had that done already. Nothing is going to scare me. So when you realize this nothing can really hurt you, you stop caring. It's not that you, you know. I mean I shouldn't say, you know, completely stop caring. But you don't get anxious. I don't get revved up. I just get around the things. When I get to things. If i'm late, i'm late, and if i'm there, I'm

there. Either way, it's going to be fine. No one's going to die. Nothing bad is really going to happen. And that's all made up in our heads. Hmmm. You know, I'm listening to that and I want to say yes. But as a woman who's been in a dangerous situation before. You know, I have a hard time saying, well, nothing could really hurt me because I you know, I mean, I feel like something could hurt me and it wouldn't necessarily be in my head, well physically

physically to be hurt. But I think I think he goes deeper than just physical. No, I've been in two three shootouts, I worked for some shady characters. I've nearly died about nine times. I've been beaten to it within inches of my life. Nothing kills me. So really, no, I'm not scared. And when you overcome those things over and over and over, they become less traumatic each time that they happen. Mm hmm. So

go ahead. Well, I was going to say, you know, I mean a big transition for me was my NDE at the age of twenty. So I know that if I go, I know where I'm going, So I'm not really scared of that. That's a great point. Somebody want to talk of the after. I'm just scared of the hel like that it's going to hurt. I mean, I know I won't remember it, but well, I'll give you a little bit news. Okay, there's something about an

MD. I'll share with you in a bit when we get there. Okay, okay, So then how if someone hasn't had their life beaten to an inch of their death and or been in several shootouts and had an ND how can we get ourselves to the point where we can get into an accident and just go, oh dear, we'll see. So we've all had trauma, and what we do is like the Buddha told us. If you look at the Buddha's life, he was a prince. He could have had anything given

to him delivered to him. His father was the king, right, so and his father said, you can have anything you want, just never go beyond the walls of the compound. So what does he do? Goes beyond the walls of the compound, of course, so it looks around and sees, wow, this is horrible out here, no wonder, he doesn't want

me out here. So it goes back inside. Years goes by, He sneaks out a couple of more times, and what he realizes is people are suffering on the other side of the wall, and on this side of the wall, everybody's got it made. So he realizes that in order to become enlightened or in order to in his words, it was to save the world from suffering. He must experience what suffering is because he had no idea.

So what he tells this is, you have to experience all the emotions on the spectrum, all the bad and all the good in order to become enlightened, because you can't become enlightened if you've only lived half a life. So I had a ton of bad, but I had no good. I had no love, So it took I didn't find love, real true love until I was like fifty years old, and that's when I had my awakening of fifty four, you know. So I had enough for the bad, I

just didn't have any of the good. And then finally I found the good and that was the last piece of my puzzle. And again, I'm not enlightened. I'm not saying that at all. I've got a long way to go, but I think I've got a handle on what it takes to get there. And so if you're missing the bad, you can there are things

that you can do. And I'm not saying to put yourself in harms way where you could die, literally, But the Buddha he went out, you know, and I'm not saying to do what he did either, because it was very dangerous. No food, no clothes, no water, no shelter, no nothing, and just left the compound and he was a homeless man for seven years. They say could have been longer. I don't know how long. But the point is that he put himself through self and due suffering

in order to experience. This is why if you go to a Buddhist monastery, they climb up a mountain on all fours to the top of the mountain and then climb back down on all fours every single day before they have breakfast. Oh good god. Wow. It's a form of suffering to to prove to yourself that you are not bothered by the suffering. It's being okay when

nothing is okay. Well, it's interesting because we've talked to a lot of people that say that just our being here on planet Earth is that is experiencing all myriad of things joy, fear, anger, anguish, jealousy, rage, all these kinds of things, and we all have different experiences that when we all come back to our home, we rejoin and we've now we've got the benefit of that those experiences together. Yes, so trauma's relative. I don't mean to cut you off. No, No, that's perfect, that's

where you're going. Yeah, absolutely, trauma is relative. Yeah uh so then but then why why do we have to if you're going through that for me? Why? Well, you know, I do. Kind of what I do is when I work with clients is I point out what their suffering was, because chances are you've gone through it, and your suffering is the worst suffering in the world. Because it's yours, My suffering is the worst. We don't need to do the comparison thing. You've been there, you've

experienced that. We're just going to pull it out and show you that you're not a victim, you're a survivor. And once you've accomplished that, you understand what the basis of this reality is. Oh ray, you just gave me chills. That must mean real stuff is happening here, because no, you're right, it wasn't. It wasn't until very recently that I found that I went through trauma. Yeah, and it had to affected me for my entire life without me being aware of it. So becoming aware of it did

help a lot. But you look like you had a question. No, I'm just thinking about the monks, you know, crawl up the hill or the mountain down that. So here's a question about that. Is it really suffering when you know you don't have to do it, like when you know you don't have to do it the next day, or you could just walk down. You have to do it. You sign up, you're going to do it. I mean, you could quit and walk away in shame. But it's going to be rough, right, But I mean there's that option.

Yeah, I'm not taking that option. For many guys that are going to take that option, Yeah, I guess. I guess it's more like it's your when it's a choice to suffer, is it as it's impactful as if it's not a choice. I think it's more impactful if you inflict it upon yourself and you do it as whereas if it comes out of left field. I think because you ultimately you may get more out of it. I mean, and I'm just speculating here because I can't. I didn't have it

that way. I had it the other way. There's something that Native Americans do and a lot of indigenous cultures do this the world. It's called hablachia. If I'm not mistaken. And what they do is when a boy is about the age of thirteen fourteen, which is when they become he becomes a man, quote unquote, they take him to the middle of the woods. They strip him of everything, no food, no clothes, no water.

They make a square around him with nothing more than what they call spiritual vines, and it's like a ten by ten box and they leave him there for four days and they come back on the fourth day and they see what he's learned. By the fourth day, you've been hallucinating. You have no right. So the idea is to go through that suffering. You will survive it because everyone well I think everyone does. I shouldn't say everyone does. I don't know. But when I first heard of that, I was like,

oh my God, sign me up. I want to do it, you know, I want to push myself. And don't you know, like a week later, I got this really bad intestine infection, right, I totally manifested this. You can't tell that, and I wound up in the hospital. I could not eat or drink or move for four days. Wow exactly, yep. And they were they were just pumping IVS in me, and it was the most excruciatingly painful thing, and all I did was meditate for four days. I came out of that feeling like a god. I was

like, nothing's can bother me now, wow? Right, I mean, we all we talk about it a lot about the growth happening at the edge of your comfort zone, and the only way to grow is to put yourself into uncomfortable position. I would say, that's good. It's a little far from what I was thinking about. But all I said to my wife was, have you heard this Hoblachia? It was on Yellowstone and we watched it on Yellowstone, like the guy does it because he wants to find a spirit

animal, and I was like, Wow, that's awesome. I want to do that. Two weeks later, I'm in the hospital and I'm laid up there. You go, wow, I'm going to watch what I say from now on to my Wow, you are a powerful man, ray or she's a powerful woman. That's usually how it goes, right, that's what you want. I've done, all right, Well, you tease a little bit earlier on about your NDE and I'm really curious because those those stories really are

a blinchpin for me. Like everyone knows I used to be deathly afraid of death. Is that s the good thing? Deathly afraid of death? Okay, it is today until like all these stories of NDS have helped me tremendously to get beyond that. But when we come back, we got to take a break. But we come back, I want to dive into your end and everything that goes along with it because your story is remarkable and I want to make sure that we got a chance to share that. So stay with

us. We'll be right back. Hey, we have another five star review today, comes from Terayah t e r r A y A and the topic of the review is to WHA's a Spiritual awakening Journey. They go on to say, your podcast has been an absolute game changer for me as someone on a spiritual journey for the past five years. Your show has been an incredible

companion, confirming and enhancing the awakening I've been experiencing. The insights shared have truly opened my eyes, offering guidance and wisdom that has resonated deeply within me. Thank you for creating such a transformative and enlightening space. Well, Soyah, you are very welcome and thank you so much. For not just listening to the show, but leaving us a review. This helps everyone out there to learn what a cool show we actually are. So thank you, thank

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guess now it's well time to get back to the show. Welcome back to the Skeptic oft A Physicians. We are talking to Ray Katanya, who is a spiritual teacher. He helps people to awaken spiritually. He helps I should rephrase that he helps people regain instinctually or intuitively. He knows what might be missing and what tools you need to move forward to your next step in your spiritual awakening. That's probably a better way of putting it. Very good.

Yeah, okay, So ripe. Thank you. I love getting a taped for my wife, like good boy, right, that's good. Definitely better than the thumbs down. Yeah. So right before the break we tease your nd and I don't even want to say anything because I want to hear from your own words, tell us what happened, how did it happen, and what happened after it happened. So I was twenty years old and I was still living at home with my parents at that moment, and my bedroom was

located on the second floor of the house. Right below my bedroom was the kitchen, and the stove ran on natural gas, and there was a gas leak. So the gas was rising all night long into my bedroom where I was asleep, and I was inhaling it and breathing it in. So by morning my mother gets up, I guess she turned on the stove to make breakfast, and it just kind of like blew up in flames. It was

a big ball of fire. The wall caught on fire. My mom was okay, Actually she came out of a dune scathe and the way I understand, my father put the fire out pretty quickly with a fire extent was her So it wasn't the fire wasn't the smoke, it was the gas. I was inhaling gas. Right, So, I'm upstairs and I hear the commotion. I hear the fire trucks, I hear the police, I hear the radios, all this commotion downstairs, and I go up to get out of

bed to find out what the heck is going out of my house. Right, So when I go to get up, this is when I first noticed something's terribly wrong. My legs I can't move them at all. They just feel like there are a thousand pounds each. They're just dead weight. My head's dead weight. I can't get it up off the pillow. I can't yell because certain parts of my body they're just not working. They're not cooperating. And my arms I have for some reason, that's what I had.

So I was able to pull myself to the edge of the bed and I'm pulling and I'm pulling, and each time I would get a little close to the edge, I'd pass out. And I really get angry because I'm trying to stay away because to the best of my ability, I know if I don't get out of the bed, I'm dead. There's no question, no one's coming up here for me, well, for whatever reason, I don't know. Probably you know, we'll do that another story another day. But

I'm coming out. I'm trying to pull myself and finally I get to the edge right, and I tumble out and I and I go down face first, and I hit my face first on the hardwood floor. Right, this much, I know. And right as I hit, I hear it, I feel it. But here's the funny thing to your point earlier that there was no pain. It was almost like right before there was going to be pain, I was out. I was spared it. There you go, Karen. And I hears a lot of I hear a lot of people with

the same story, right that I've later spoken to later in life. But so now I am above my body. I'm in a corner. The picture of the room is a perfect square, right, It's a perfect square. And I came out of the bed, so I'm kind of like closer to the farther away side, and I'm in the corner, like a neutral corner, like in a boxing match, in a neutral corner, and I'm looking over my dead body and I'm just watching myself, not moving, maybe twitching

a little bit and you know that's it. And then adjacent to me, on the other side of the adjacent corner has a huge, cone shaped white light. And this light is I mean by calling it a light, it's an injustice. It is. It is love, it is euphoria, it is painlessness. It is just absolute pure love and euphoria. And I have no body now, so I'm a part of this light. It's on me like I'm on a stage and the light's on me. But I'm also part of that light and I can go into it. It's like a tunnel and

I can go into it. And I am going into it because there's a being at the end of the light that says it's okay, Ray, you can come in. And I'm like, wow, he knows my name. I don't know. I didn't know if it's a he or she or why. You know, I'm not playing. But because you're not hearing anything, it's a transmission of information, you just get it right. So I'm gonna call it it key for now. And he says, come into the light. It's safe to come into the light. And I don't trust anybody,

and at this time in my life, but I trusted this being. So I go into the light and as I go deeper, the euphoria increases. Let me tell you, I've done a lot of drugs in my life. Nothing feels this good. Nothing hmm no, no, no no. And and don't go out and try this at home, just y the disclaimer. Yeah that's important, Yeah, yeah, big disclaimery. You know, sometimes we get accused of romanticizing this a little bit, and then you know, blah blah blah. So let's you got to come back, you got to

finish your business. But anyway, so I'm heading down and I want to go all the way to the other side. Now what happens is my father. They must have heard the thumb, right, So he comes running up the stairs. He kicks in the door and he scoops me up and he's like, oh my god, my son. He's crying, he's screaming for the paramedics. And I'm watching this and I'm like, wow, this guy loves me. Like we didn't have a good relationship at all. I didn't

have a good relationship my parents at all. It was fucking horrible. Sorry you might ast have bleep that, but you know, I was shocked. I was shocked. So I asked the being if I could go back, because like I always longed for that. I wanted that the man never hugged me. I had to be dead for him hug me, so I wanted to go back and experience that. That's the truth. And you know, I was allowed to come back, and I wasn't in his arms anymore.

I was now. When I woke up, I was on the living room floor and the paramedics are doing all kinds of things to me with their tools and gadgets and whatnot, and I'm like, the euphoria is still inside me. So I'm like, guys, guys, get off me. I feel great. I feel fantastic. And they're like, son, you're anything but fantastic. So just lie there and let us do what we have to do. And they and I hear them talking their lingo, like bring up the truck, bring up the truck. We got to get them going, We

got to get them go. He's got no BP, do't BP. And uh, you know, I'm at the moment, I'm just like high out of my mind. It's like I'm high on an MD. It feels fantastic. I'm like, did you guys did you hear the voice? Did you see the light? It was awesome, wasn't it. And now they're looking at me like I'm on drugs, I'm crazy, and I'm going to the wrong hospital if I don't shrut the hell up, all right, So I just stopped. I just stopped talking. I let them take me away.

And you know, I, when I was a kid, used to isolate myself a lot, you know, to stay away from what was going on in my house. I'd hide in closets and basements. In my room, I locked myself in the room, and you know, it's just me and me, you know. And we didn't have any cell phones, no computers, no nothing. So it's me, myself and I and I'm staring at a wall. So it was like hours and hours of meditating. And when you do hours and hours of meditating, I know today from Yogi's Who've done

it, that we you start to see energy. Now I didn't think anything of this. I was just staring at a wall. But if you stare at a wall long enough, you're gonna it's not a white wall or a yellow or a red wall. It has no pain, it has no color, it's not made of wood anymore. It's made of lines and you can see it. You can actually see the wavy lines, and you know, this is again not the ideal way to get here, but it's how I

got there. And when I told anybody I was crazy, and I was like, no, there they you know sometimes things are floating around the right in the air and you know, and you're out of your mind, and if you ever tell anybody that, I will kill you. Okay, okay, So I just let it rest and like I did, you know. Then they brought me to the hospital. I came back the next day.

I was released. I think it was the next day. I was really out of it, but trying to figure out what I just saw what, you know, told my parents and they're like, okay, you're absolutely crazy. Never tell anybody that again, or I will kill you. And I was like, okay, I will never tell anybody. You know, Christian home. There's a lot of killing going out in your house all there, right, So anyway, I just shut it down. And this is how

I did it. I figured I fell in front of a window and it was a sunny day and the white light was the sun, and then I just justified it away I inhaled so much gas that I hallucinated the voice and everything else, and I put it away in a box and I made it not real, Just like my imaginary friends that were floating around when I was a kid, They're not real. And that's what I had to do. And that's how I lived my life, all right. And that's a very

common story in that part of it. In fact, I think we all do that on an almost daily basis. We justify miracles that happened to us, not quite as dramatic as yours. But and I'm sure you've gotten the question a lot of times. Could it have been the gas you inhaled making you visualize these things or feel these things, to hear these things because of the chemical composition of the gas in your brain, that kind of stuff.

But you you feel this was an out of body experience with Oh, I know that that had nothing to do with the brain chemistry, absolutely absolutely. But I didn't have a computer that, I didn't have Google that could just type it in and see what it was, right, So I had literally nobody to speak to. Couldn't tell my parents, you know, didn't have any friends that I could talk to about this. You know, so I I just had to let it go. But here's what happens. So I'm

a kid who could see energy, and then I die. I crossover, I come back right and talk about I become like this portal for the other side, and I bring a whole bunch of people back with me, people quote unquote energy beings, if you will. I'm moving into my first part my apartment about about like twenty one twenty two, and I'm psyched. I'm like, this is gonna be great. It's gonna be girls, it's gonna be parties, it's gonna be fantastic. Is gonna be off the wall.

You know. I'm very in the mindset of I don't care if I live or die. I'm just living for today. I get absolutely no reason to lift tomorrow. I don't care what happens. Loaded up with drugs and alcohol, let's go, let's party. Here we go. Right I get into this apartment. None of that ever happens because the apartment is already filled with people and I didn't invite anybody over yet. Hello there. You can't see

them. You can feel them, but you can't see them. And they can turn the TV on, TV off and they can put the blender on, blender off, they could turn the alarma on. The alarma. I would call the maintenance guy one hundred times a day, and you know what he said to me. He said, kid, you're crazy, right, don't call me again again. I'm crazy. So I'm just I'm thinking, Okay, I'm losing my mind and I'll just live it out in my mind and everything that I've been seeing since I was young, I'm crazy and I'm

buy into that. And then I started drinking and using massive amounts of drugs because I can't go to sleep and I can't stop seeing these things because they're all around. And so finally I had the worst case of insomnia and I was just you know, taking everything to fall asleep. That was the objective, really was to sleep because I couldn't sleep. And I moved into the next apartment. I left that one, I went into another one. And I got there and I thought it was going to be a fresh start.

Here we go parties. There were none. No, as soon as I got there, they're all there again. And the house isn't haunted, race haunted. They're coming with me wherever I go. But I don't believe you exactly. I literally yell at them, I don't think you're real. I'm an atheist. I don't believe in any of you guys. Go away. You know, I completely rebelled against my family's religion. I hated it. I was like, absolutely no way, could there possibly be some kind of

loving God that's going to allow this stuff to happen to me. I'm a kid. I did nothing to no one. So that was my take on life. You know, there's no ass just everything goes black the end, like the last episode of Sopranos. That's that. Yeah, let's not that's a touchy something, which I really like. I enjoyed it. I know no one else did, but I might have understood it a little bit. So it just you know, so I lived the next ten years of my

life and putting myself. I would up the anny and up the anny and put myself in worse situations and with worse and worse people, and just you know that didn't care, just literally did not care. And this was after you're unde. Yeah yeah, so like twenty to thirty. But then you it's interesting, oh be oh that's see because you put it away because you thought everyone's telling you that you were crazy couldn't have happened. It's not real.

So then of course that that makes perfect. But in the back of my mind, you know, I know what I saw, I know what I felt, and I know the things that are going on around me. So you know, there's a part of me that's like, you know, if I'm crazy, I'm crazy whatever. But you know what, it's more likely that that was real and what's going to happen. I'm just going to

go back to that light, right, so don't mess with me. So then, how did you get from that point where you were that angry kid, let's just put it that way, that wasn't believing in anything, even though you had undergone that nd to the point where you now are sitting here helping others come to grips with the fact that they're not going crazy. So first thing, first, had kids. I got married and had two kids, and then all of a sudden I had a reason to live and it

was them. There you go, two little tiny handmians that were dependent on me. So I checked myself in a rehab. I went back to college, got my degree, worked my way up, got a very very good job, got another very very good job work my way up the ladder, was doing very well for myself and the beings. They were just kind of we had to cease fire. You stay on your Saturday room, I stay

on mind. And that That's really the way it was. And I just operated around it, and I knew how to deal with it, you know. And this went on for quite some time, and then I got divorced very quickly. I mean it was like maybe three years we separated, began the divorce proceedings, but I still had the kids, and you know, they were I was not going to give them the life that I had. I was going to give them everything I didn't have and then some and perhaps

overcompensated, but whatever, you know, that's what happens. So, yeah, you're talking speaking to the choir, right. We always wanted them to have better, and they're like, I gave them everything whatever, but maybe a little too much. Yeah, But you know, I think for the all, for the most part, they came out good. But what they did for me was way more than what I did for them, I think, and and and I dedicated you know, the book to them because it

was really it was about that. So but for a long time. I don't date, and that's because I don't want to bring another woman into my young boys lives. I got two boys, and I'm going to bring another woman and I'm gonna get really angry. So I didn't date for a very long time. And then finally I decide that I am going to date seriously. I made him. I have a couple of things here and there,

but it was nothing serious. And then I got serious and I went online to find somebody, and I came across a website and there was this woman that they always give you, like these examples to get you to join, like here's for women in your area, you know, blah blah blah. He would know, No, you wouldn't. I'm just kidding. No one really goes all the site, so I know. So there she was.

These are sites we're talking about, yeah, websites, dating site. So I saw this woman and she just I was like, oh my god, I know her. I've known her forever. I just know that that's my wife. That's my wife, and I absolutely know this is my soulmate. There is no question in my mind. I can feel it, I can see it, I know, I can just I understand that her and I are one. So I write to her and I tell her this. Yeah, so I put in something like this. I was like, listen,

hi, it's really nice to meet you. My name is Ray, you're my wife. You really don't know this yet. I understand this sounds crazy, but we need to meet because you're my soulmate and we're going to live happily ever after my phone over, Yeah, it was kind of like that there. It was a little more crazier than that. But and I actually if it could be and I and I and I copied and paste that, I put it in a book, and and so and and and her response which was like, l L, you're out of your mind. Uh,

I need who the hell are you? Right? So really my response would have been like, I'm calling the cops right now. And so we you know, we wind up having dinner. We are married, we're together. It's been eight years later or whatever it is, and she's there's no questions. She's my soulmate. So when we're dating, here's what happens up until now. All the energy that I see and the things that I see are just energy. That's what they really they are. But when I meet her,

it changes a little bit. Here's what happens. First. You know, when two people start to get serious, one says to the other, so, what are your spiritual or religious beliefs? And I'm like, I'm like, you go first, that's me And I would have went along with anything as she said, but she was smarter than that. And she's like, turns it back on me, and I said, well, I've been

actually trying to figure that out. I really don't know. Honestly. I experienced so many different crazy things that you don't even want to know about. And she's like, no, I really do. And I was like, no, you really do. And she says, well, listen, why don't we do this. I'm going to buy you. And my birthday was coming up. She's like, I'm going to get you a spiritual clearing for your birthday. I was like, so, what the hell is that?

And like a massage. I'm gonna get a massage because absolutely so, Wait, you knew about soul meates, not spiritual clearings. What the heck right? Well, I didn't. I didn't know enough to call her that at the time. Yeah, I'm I'm still ignorant. And so I said, we're gonna have cake, right, and she's like, yeah, we'll have cake. We'll have cake. So I was like, so what do I

gotta do and she said, absolutely nothing. The lady's gonna call You're gonna be at work probably, and she's going to call you until you she's going to start as I don't even have to be there. She's like, no, distant, distantly. So she calls me. She's very nice. I don't believe a word of what she's saying. She's telling me she's going to do something to my chakras. I'm like, chakras, like my wife. Now you're gonna no. I was very polite, I was very nice,

but I didn't believe a word that she was saying. And I was like, okay, that's great. Be goes. If you feel a little off afterwards, you know, just call me back and let me know. And I was like, all right, that's cool. So she calls me back when she's done. She's like all right. So I completed everything, and here's what I saw. You had this year, this year, this year,

this year, this year, this year. That's I was like, wow, that's a lot of this and she's like, yeah, it kind of is but I broke it up for you, and this is what's going to happen, so you really might feel off. Don't make any life changing decisions and don't have any important appointments lately. And I said okay, and I respected what she said. And then it was maybe within an hour later. I got up from my desk and I went to go to the bathroom

and I was like stumbling. I was like so wobbly. I felt like I had a drink, and I was sober over a decade at that point, and I was just my equilibrium was way off. And I started to feel the pressure like it was when I moved into that apartment again. And this did not feel good at all. I started to get a headache and

went home. I called it a day. It was a Friday, and later that evening, I'm laying down and I'm kind of just flipping through channels and I see for the first time an energy being in the shape of a man. Now I'm not seeing this with my eyes, Okay, this is in here. It's my third eye. It's like a movie screen that opens up in my head and there's a man on the screen and he's talking to me, and he says. He's a big husky guy. He's got a beard and mustache, thick black hair, and he says, I efed up.

I made a mistake. You can help her. I cannot. And I'm just like, what was that? And I just waited a little while, and then there he was again, and he said the same thing. And I was trying to watch the show right, but every time I would kind of just start to nod off, he would come back. And so I was like, this is really not cool. I don't know what's happening to me. So I finally fall asleep. I wake up the next morning and I'm like, I don't know what that was last night. That was

really weird. But it starts up right at breakfast. I mean it just there he is again, the same eight second video loop. I'm watching it over and over again. And Saturday it feels like it's every hour on the hour. Now going into Sunday, it feels like it's every five minutes. I can't drive, I can't have a conversation. I'm shaking, I'm trembling. I can't take it anymore. And I was in a store and I was paying for my stuff and the lady behind the counter, goes, sir,

are you okay? And I said no, I don't know what I did. I really don't. But she said are you okay? And I said no, I'm not okay. I'm not okay at all. And I took my car and I went back to the car and I put my head down and I said, I worked all these years. I beat drugs, I beat alcohol, I became something of myself. I raised two kids, and now I'm out of my mind. I'm insane. Really, this is

what you're gonna do to me now? And I called my brother. I made sure he had my will, my DNR, do not resuscitate me again. I'm going to the light. If that was real, I'm going right in there. Do not pass go, don't ever revive me. So I'm making provisions for my kids. They have to be taken care of, and I have That's this is the way I'm thinking right now. Now. I got to tell this woman that I just met, just found then I'm I see people that aren't there. And if this isn't all enough of a crazy

story. She is a doctor of psychology and a doctor of neuropsychology by trade, so she could put you in the bind. Yeah. Yeah, but this is the way I see it. She's probably gonna say, call this doctor over here and never call me again, right right, But that's not what happens. Remember this is the woman that bought me a spiritual clearing, so it doesn't go like that at all. But I'm petrified to tell her,

but I have to tell her. And so I do tell her, and she says, go through that again with me, and I said, well, I get the vibration, I get the shakes, I get the chills, and then the movie screen opens up and the guy, big husky guy, you know, the hair, and blah blah blah. I fd up, I made a mistake. You can help her, I can up. She says, that sounds like my dad, and I said, honey, your dad's dead. And now I'm thinking she's crazy. Please right,

okay, you're a doctor. Huh. Well they do call him quacks, so you know, She's like, no, really, And I said, no, really, that doesn't sound like your dad because I said, beard mustair stick, black hair, husky guy, and I saw the picture that you have in the house and it does not look like him at all. And she goes, that's an old picture. She goes. She goes, first of all, I've seen many mediums, and she's going through her phone

and I was like, what the hell is a medium? And there she got through the phone and she gets to a photo and she shows this to me and I was like, holy shit, you know that guy? Mmm? And my jaw just dropped. And I said that that not only was it him, it was the shirt he had on, it was everything. Wow, that's talk about some serious validation. That's incredible. And I didn't know whether to throw up or or be relieved. I didn't know what it was. She goes, relax. I've been to a lot of mediums.

They all describe him in the same way. He's very, very forceful in nature. Even on the other side he comes through. He's always right there, almost dead center. They're not allowed to be dead center, almost dead center, and he's he's very he wants to get a message, and you gave me the message. And I was like, Okay, that sounds great, So what do I do with this thing? She goes relaxed. There's a medium that's coming to town, like Santa Clo. It's coming to town.

The medium coming to town. She's going to be here for a couple of weeks and you can meet with her and you guys can talk shop, and you can tell her what you feel and how you feel, and you could decide for yourself if this is real or if you're crazy? Right, simple, always level headed. I was like, damn, I don't even deserve her. So the one, I mean, how could she not be? So she takes me to the medium thing and I'm like, Hi, I'm Ray and the medium goes, oh, you're that Ray nice? And

I said, yeah, sit down right. I was okay, and I'm like, you know here I am. I'm like, I'm not petrified. The guy that wasn't shootout and and she's She's like, tell me what's happening, right, And I said, well, I'm losing my mind. I see people and they're not really there and they even speak to me. She goes, hahaha, me too, and I said, I said, I

said yeah, but this. She goes take me through the process, and I said, the chills and then the lines across the room, and then the SWIRLI is in the corner of my eye, and then the movie screens opens up and she goes stop. I said, what she goes, that's exactly the way I see it. She goes, that's exactly the way we all see it. And I was like, who's who's Who's we all mediums? You're a medium? And I was like, so I'm not crazy.

She goes, no, So what do I do now? You know, like all of a sudden, it was a big relief, but then at the same time it wasn't because at least insanity I understood. I know how it ends, I know how it goes. I don't know anything about medium shit, so as a whole unknown that I'm more afraid of. But she takes me under her wing teaches me everything. I mean, this is literally like the first time I even hear the word medium. You got to understand,

like, I have no background of this stuff at all. So she really the first year she saved my life, and she she confided in me. She's like, listen, when I was young, my parents had me put away for being schizophrenic, and they kept me in that hospital for many years, and so I don't ever want to see that happen to anybody else. And now I don't want to see that happen anybody else. And if I work with somebody and they tell me they see things. I sit with

them and we go through the process of what they see. I do that all the time, because, like I said, that's where I was headed, That's where I was headed, and knowing how I was, I would have just checked myself in. So it was right from there. It wasn't until a year later I met my second mentor and it was my next birthday. Always on my birthday, my wife says, where do you want to go for your birthday? And I said, I you want to go to a beach. You want to go to this? I said, absolutely not.

I want an outhouse, and I want a tent, and I want to be in the middle of the woods, and I want to hug trees. The hell are you? I don't know, I don't know, but I really need to hug some trees, you know. I that was like a butt end of my jokes all the time, you know, being one with the universe and hugging trees and all this. And now I'm that guy. I'm literally shoes off hugging trees. Come near this tree, I will kill you. So and we meditated the whole weekend and what happened was is

she my wife takes out a drawing. It was an illustration that was done for her of her dad and she shows to me and I said, that's your dad and she goes, yeah, I know. And I said, but what you don't know is that's the way I see him, Like the with the buttons and that, you know this and that, and she goes, yeah. We used to make fun of him. That was his Christmas shirt and I was like, what does that mean. He was a construction worker. He built houses for a living, so he was always workbook in

Jean's guy. He never had a nice shirt on. He would take one out for Christmas and this would be the shirt. And I said, well who drew that? And she goes a medium. Oh wow. I said, well that's the way I see him. So I need to know who that medium is and I need to meet that person. And so we looked him up online and it said right on his website, Big Letters now taking applications for a two year mentorship program with Medium Joe. Your application must be

submitted by February fifteenth, that's my birthday. No, oh my gosh. She had no choice. She goes, you're going to do it. I said, so I'm filling out the application right in there, and I'm sending it in because I don't want to miss the date. Then the first application, you know, it's like ten questions, it's nothing. Then they send you like a booklet that's like this, and you they're all asks, say questions, and how does this happen? How does that happen? What do

you see first? What do you see? Second? What do you hear? What do you do? What happens here? Whatepens? And it's like just going through everything. But if you can't prove you're real, you're not getting it. And let me tell you how difficult it was. So even I sent that back. Then I had an interview. Then they sent me another questionnaire. I had another interview, and then I heard nothing. So I was like, I didn't get this. I'm not I'm not real.

I'm all the way back to I'm not real. I'm back. Maybe I'm crazy. Maybe I made this all up in my head, you know, and I'm all the way back to square one. But I wanted to make that phone call and just confirm it. So I called his assistant and I said, I just wanted to confirm, you know that I didn't get the mentorship program, and that she cut me off. She goes, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, we didn't make

any decisions yet. And I was like, oh really, She goes, yeah, this year, there were hundreds of applications, and I was like, wow, hundreds of applications. This is only the second time he did it. And he and and this mentorship costs several thousand dollars because it's a real mentorship, like you can call him day or night, seven days a week, whatever you need, he's there. And so it's you do the math. Thousands of dollars times hundreds of people, windfall, windfull, windful,

right right. This is the integrity of this man. If he could not prove to himself that you were legit, you could not get in. I did get in, and I was number eleven of eleven. Oh wow, I don't think I could have done that. That's how when I knew that man, I'm never leaving a guy like that. You're my daddy, you want to be or not. And it was a two year program. I think I'm in my fifth year and I'm just the guy who never leaves, never graduates. I don't want to graduate I'm just here because he's here

and that's it. And uh yeah, so but he taught it. He taught me everything. I mean he not just mediumship, like spirituality and how to manifest and how manifesting works. And then he started to really trigger my curiosity. So I went back to college for metaphysics. I got a master's, bachelor's and a master's. I'm an ordained minister with the imm International Metaphysical Ministry, and then I'm doing my doctorate right now. And I've read every

book under the sun, from Ecker tole Joe Dispensa to Deepak. And then on the other side, I love science, so I read Einstein, I read Tesla, I read Neils. For you name a physicist, I've read him and I've studied his work. And then what happened was is I started taking these spiritual concepts and I matched them to the physical laws of reality, and I started to put it together. That is the entire second book.

It's some of the first book, but it's mostly the second book. You've got a spiritual concept, and then I explained to you how it works from a physical perspective. Because I was the biggest skeptic, I was a forty something year skeptic. Right, I've been seeing this since I was five. You are speaking my language right now, Yes, exactly, So you'll buy my boss, I do. I'm actually I'm wait, hang on, I'm getting my phone. I'm ordering it right now. But since we're on a

topic, let's let's dive into it. Because we've gone way longer than I thought we would. But this is such it's such a fascinating conversation. Give us the names of your book because we're going to add those links to our show notes. But I want to make sure I've got them right. Okay. So the first book is The Atheist in the Afterlife, and that is the story of me going from atheism to being a believer. It basically ends before I meet my second mentor. And when the second book is called You're

Still Alive Now, act like it and title. That is a book that really gets into the concepts of There's a lot of stories in there too, but there's also concepts of, say like the law of attraction, which is

really popular right now. So I break it down. First of all, I tell you how I use the law of attraction in my own life, and that story is you know, pretty crazy to begin with, and then I explain to you how it works physically from a physical perspective, and then I tell you how to do it on your own, so every chapter will have a story about my crazy life. Then it has the spiritual principle,

and then it tells you how to break it down physically. And you can look up all the physical laws that I put in there, because I did and studied them over in a wad over and over, and it just makes perfect sense. Hm. I'm definitely excuse me, I'm definitely without a doubt getting your book because that does sound exactly like right up my alley. And if you write the way you speak, I think that would just be like it's way get ready for a lot of four letter words. I'm gonna warn

you in a dance. Okay, I am from Jersey, so nephew, and that's just a regular word that's not really a thing right in our household is like salt. So we're good. Oh right, that's amazing, said you had a question. No, okay, I'm just listening like I'm just I'm just listening like I want to take it all in. So then on top of your book, you also, you you right now help people to to come to grips with some of the stuff that's happening with them right now,

where you help them to find their path spiritually. When someone reaches out to you and says, what the heck? Although a lot more flowery than I just said, it take us to the pieces? What do you do? How do you help somebody? So? And nothing's cookie cutter, because everybody comes from a different place right in their life, but they're all seeking the same thing. They all want to be awaken. They all want to see the other side. And I always asked first, I was like,

listen, do you really want to see the other side? Because once you see it, you're not going to be able to unsee it. And you know, I asked my two sons right to give you a quick example, I asked both my sons, I said, who wants to see it? Because you're not going to want to go to the bar anymore and have a couple of drinks with your friends, because that's just not going to do it

for you. You know, you're just not going to give a crap about you know, certain things that you do care about right now, all that stuff, you know, maybe you want to wait until you're like thirty. My other sound is like, no way, I want it now, and he was like, oh wait, dad, I'm in college all right. Right, So everybody that comes in is very, very different as to where they are, and the first thing we do is we set like a baseline and we figure out where they are, and then we figure out where they

want to be, and then I take them through the process. But I always am very respectful. I ask them, do you want to know this? Do you want to know that? Because it does change you, right, It's going to literally change the way you react, It's going to change the way you do things. It's going to change the way you are with other people. In one hundred percent, I mean, it's going to be

for the better. But not everybody wants everything to be for the better, right, or they don't see it as being better because you know, one of the questions I get is how do I keep my drive and my ambition and trying to acquire my goals at the same time. I'm the spiritual Lasadaisical person. And I said it's very simple. I said, I don't go out and get things. They come to me. And once you master that you don't have to get out of bed. I don't care if I'm in

my kitchen or if I'm on a beach. It's the same thing to me. There's no there's no difference. Now, I'm not gonna You and I are working together. You and I are working together because you're you are just we do we are? Oh my god? Like where do you? Where have you been my hire career? I get that a lot out. I bet you too. Yeah. No, we're definitely going to talk because this

this sounds amazing. So, uh, we've gone way way over time, which is not unusual, but but this has been unusual inasmuch that we have just been like little kids listening to you talk because your story is incredible and the way you tell it is so wonderful. So if someone wanted to reach out to you and work with you one on one or well, we're going to add your your books to our show notes so people can access them. But so I wanted to reach out to you, what's the best way to

get a hold of you? Ray Katanya dot com and uh or Limitless Publications dot com either one. Ray Katanya is a new sided just built it out. It's really it's coming along really nicely. It's going to have courses, classes of course, you can access me for coaching. You'll find out information on what's coming up and new books and new stuff, and everything's going to be rolled out through there. So I'm pretty excited about it. Breakatania dot

com. Thank you for allowing me to say that. By the way, absolutely I want to hear about this definitely, And if you can get me to stay in bed and get sit to come to me, we are right. It's kind of like every man's dream when you think about it. Yes, I want to be or the Jedi mind trick here I come. I'm

just teasing obviously, but Ray, you are amazing, amazing. Thank you so much for coming on the show talking to you about your experience and about the spiritual weakening stuff, because that was we started out strong and just never looked back, so I really appreciate you. When to add all those links to our show notes, just go to Skeptic metaposition dot com. You can access those links directly from there and it'll be a one click contact with Ray.

So once again, rights such a pleasure. Thank you for coming on the show. Pleasure and a huge thank you to you. If you know someone who would benefit from hearing the message we're sharing on the show, do them and us a favor and share the show with them. It will help get the word out about us and it might just change someone's life for the better. Well that's all for now. We will see you on the next episode of The Skeptic Metaphysician. Until then, take care,