Crystal Waddell: Welcome back to the Simple and Smart SEO Show podcast. I am here with Dimitri Kustov. He is the founder of Regex SEO, and we are about to have a whirlwind conversation about all things SEO and marketing. And so are you ready to get into
this, Dimitri?
Dmitrii Kustov: I sure am.
Crystal Waddell: Awesome.
welcome to the show. Thank you so much for coming.
Dimitrii's Journey into SEO and MarketingCrystal Waddell: do you want to just give us a short synopsis of, who you are, what you do in the SEO world and, Yeah, just anything that you'd like to share for your background.
Dmitrii Kustov: Sure. yeah, started dabbling in SEO way back when I was still in college, actually.
early stages of college. Then, over time did I, I was presented with the choice of trying to find a company to work for, in SEO.
Or to found my own company. So as. let's call it not very smart young guy decided, Hey, if that guy can do it, so can I.
And I can do it better. Pull the trigger and the rest is history.
now we are over 30 people strong. We work with, mostly home services companies.
But also with any other industries.
We do holistic marketing at this point, meaning that SEO is definitely part of the, in our tool belt.
But, we provide every service to take a business from point A to point B.
From ground zero to, to level a hundred.
From the, earth to the moon and beyond.
So yeah, there you go.
Crystal Waddell: Wow. Big, big promises. I love it. That's awesome. okay. So one question I want to ask you just right off the bat.
Number One SEO Tip: Data TrackingCrystal Waddell: What is your number one SEO tip that somebody could implement today?
Dmitrii Kustov: If you're not doing any proper data tracking.
Definitely that's step, not even one, that's step zero.
If you already have some data tracking, then look into improving that more granular details. The more data you have, the better decisions you can make.
I don't know if it's a quote, if it's my own. I came up with this saying for one of the conferences I spoke at. And I use it all the time now. the data. It's not meant to be the byproduct of whatever you're doing. Instead, it's meant to be the underlying reason for whatever you do.
Typically the way businesses work is just like, Oh yeah, we gather some data and it's the aftermath. Instead. It's meant to be, you gather it first, then you make decisions, then you do strategy, all of that stuff.
Crystal Waddell: Yeah, I forgot to tell you I used to be a teacher.
Importance of Google Analytics and Search ConsoleCrystal Waddell: So I raise my hand, to talk but one thing I was thinking about.
I just Signed on a client this last weekend and I was shocked that they didn't have google analytics set up So not only did they not have any, old analytics, they don't, they didn't have GA4 set up.
And I had assumed that. Wrongly. Oh my gosh.
They didn't have that. They didn't have Google search console. And so I think that is a fantastic tip because that really is zero.
that's what you need to do first. And I just posted about this on LinkedIn because I was like, look, even if you don't think that you're ready to look at the data and understand what it means.
By the time you're ready.
You don't have any data to look at. And you can't just go back and grab it. so set it up now.
And then that way, when you're ready to move forward, that you have some sort of baseline to go off of.
The Role of Keywords in SEODmitrii Kustov: And,you mentioned Google analytics and Google search console, and there's a bunch of different tools for SEO specifically, but even on the business side.
One of the conversations that I have with pretty much all of our clients. They sometimes ask, Hey, how many keywords we're ranking for?
Or, what keywords we're ranking for? And what's our traffic? And all that stuff. Which is all good and nice and good to have.
At the end of the day for the business though.
What matters is things beyond that. Sure. You can rank for a million keywords. But if none of them result in any traffic and therefore leads, that's really the question, right?
Leads, sales.
And that type of tracking is as equally important for the business world.
Because marketing stops at lead generation. Our goal as marketers is to bring businesses qualified leads. And then after that, their sales take over.
Their, internal processes take over. And if you don't have data on that...
You're not going to understand, okay, I'm ranking number one for million keywords, but how's that affecting my business?
Nobody knows.
Yes.
Crystal Waddell: Oh my gosh.
The Shift in SEO TrendsCrystal Waddell: I think that's the trend that is shifting now.
It's just, facts.
Just because you're ranking for a bunch of words doesn't mean that's actually going to produce customers.
It's also like when you first discover SEO and you're like, okay, I want to get a bunch of traffic to my website.
It's like my favorite SEO person says, Andrew Holland. He says that, traffic is vanity. Profit is sanity, And I'm like, yes, that's exactly right. Yeah.
Profitability and Scaling in BusinessCrystal Waddell: And I am having a three day launch in December. So if you are listening to this and December of 2023 or before.
I'm doing a three day launch where we're going to talk about profitability of your product and paying yourself and the different things that you have to have in place before you can really create a strategy to grow your sales.
Because, if you're not profitable, if you don't have systems in place that are working for you, you can't scale that.
And so I just think those are some really great points that you brought up. Thank you. Okay. All right.
Dmitrii Kustov: Happy to help.
Data Over Feelings: A New ApproachCrystal Waddell: So one of the things you were talking about, just in our back and forth was this idea of data over feelings. So what does that mean?
Importance of Data in Decision MakingCrystal Waddell: Data over feelings is how I operate on the philosophical and everyday level. I'm a huge data nerd. and I've been told that I just think only in black and white.
So that comes very natural to me.
However, when you talk to anybody in general, especially bigger companies, C level executives. They think in the ways, Oh, we used to do it this way for ages.
The Role of Feelings in Business DecisionsCrystal Waddell: So we're just going to keep doing it.
My grandpa used to do so and it worked. Yeah. Okay. it did.
Does it work now? Let's look at the data.
Or I hate the phrases, when we get on the call with our clients and they say something like, I think that we need to do this.
I feel we are not getting enough. Traffic or whatever feelings are good. And there's a place for them.
But let's look at the data.
Let's look at what data tells us.
Numbers don't lie. And whenever we look at, whenever we look at, performance.
The Importance of Data in SEOCrystal Waddell: actually a conversation we had yesterday with a client, they were talking about growing in 2024.
And how they're going to do that and all that stuff. And the question that was, how many keywords more? How many more keywords we need to rank for? And is it worth pursuing them and stuff like that?
Really at the end of the day, what we need to look at is the data for cost per qualified lead.
From organic search in 2023.
And then from there, the calculations are super, super simple. There's no room for feelings. It's okay, we know that we get you cost per qualified lead, but let's say a hundred dollars per cost per qualified lead, and you need a hundred more a month.
then, it's very simple calculation. Multiply those and therefore your budget increase should be by $10,000.
And because it's historical data, it's not feelings like, Oh, I think we can get you cost a hundred qualified leads at a hundred dollars each.
No, I know, at this point. And in fact, I can predict looking at the trend over 2023, that in beginning, it was $150.
In June, July, it was $125. And by the end of the year, we're approaching a hundred.
Therefore, the trend should continue. And most likely we're going to see even improvements. So instead of 10, 000 to get a hundred leads, maybe it's going to be 9, 000.
There you go. So there's no room for feelings in those types of situations where.
just because somebody told you to do just because I have this gut feeling that we need to invest into, this type of marketing or whatever it is, it does not mean anything until there is historical data.
Until there is proven track record. And Everything that comes with it.
We track everything inside and out from SEO, to paid, to socials, to billboards, to whatever else we do. Our rule is if it's not trackable, it doesn't matter.
Okay. So what are those data points then? Like specifically for organic and SEO efforts?
What are the measurable data points?
Dmitrii Kustov: So as I mentioned earlier, the, what matters for the business.
Especially again, we work with a lot of home services, businesses, air conditioning, repairs, pest control, garage door installations, all of that stuff for them, what matters is the number of qualified leads.
And therefore from there, they take it and they can calculate how many, of those they sell.
And then with average revenue per job, they can understand the ROI cost of revenue. And then, project going forward.
So what we do for, it's not just SEO, it's for every single marketing activity.
Our goal is to make sure that we can understand typically, the following metrics and I'll go backwards.
Number of sold jobs. Which comes through a booking rate. From number of qualified leads. from qualified leads, we'll look at, call to lead to qualified lead rate.
And that, comes from number of calls directly attributed to a certain marketing activity or a channel.
From there, it starts splitting into specific channel metrics.
So, for SEO, it would be number of, for example, visits to the website from organic search. Conversion rate for organic search. Before that, in order to get traffic, we need to understand where we are ranking.
So average position, visibility, percentage, things of that nature.
If you were talking about, let's say paid search, it would be, like CTR, clicks, cost per click, things of that nature.
Our goal is again, because that's how I live, if it's not tracked. Because really my role, whenever I work with the clients.
Most of our clients, they don't have internal marketing team.
They're fairly small companies under all of them are under a hundred million dollars.
They don't have internal marketing team. Typically they don't have a marketing director.
So my goal, my role is to be their marketing director.
And imagine this, you work in a company and you actually. Internal marketing director and somebody like CEO or stakeholders or owner comes to and say, Hey, how much do we.
Pay for cost per lead to this company.
And if you say, Oh, I don't know, you're going to get fired right away.
So my goal is to make sure that everything we do is a hundred percent trackable or as close to a hundred percent as we can.
And, so that whenever our clients ask me those questions. How much does it cost?
What's the cost to revenue? How are performing, how the channels stack up against each other?
I can actually give them a good answer. And not just, Oh, I feel like this. I feel like that.
Crystal Waddell: That is such a great breakdown. as you were describing that, I could actually picture. The tree, in the branches of those things in my mind.
Yeah. So it was great.
The Role of Direct Attributions in Google AnalyticsCrystal Waddell: Now my question is what about direct attributions in Google analytics? Like how do you quantify that?
Dmitrii Kustov: Same thing. direct channel is whenever people get to your website directly.
Typing in your, RegexSEO.Com for example. And yes, you can't really understand, a hundred percent where they come from.
However, there is a way and there is a way to give you a little bit of information.
So, just logically, if you think through this.
When do people know your website address?
There's not that many, possibilities. One would be they are your existing customers. They know who you are. They use you all the time.
So that's one of the ways who and how they know about your domain.
And unfortunately it's a big problem in the industry is incorrect attribution.
If you do some kind of email marketing and don't properly tag it, then it could be attributed to direct.
But typically if you have proper setup, that's not going to be a huge percentage.
Then things that are brand, related.
Now, let's say you run TV ad. Or some kind of banner on the side of the road. With that, typically people will not type in RegexSEO.Com. They will actually Google the name.
So Regex SEO actually in Google.
And then that would not be. direct at that point. And then you can break out your brand search, which is not a brand search in Google search console.
for direct, we take it with a grain of salt. Also, especially in universal analytics, it was very easy to see multi channel attribution.
In Google Analytics 4, they kind of screwed it up. They took away the attribution models, which is horrible.
Now they only have data driven or last click and that's it, which is one of the stupidest things ever.
but at least they do have the multi touch points, in a way. it's not as good as it used to be in Universal Analytics.
And what that tells you, or can tell you, is... Is direct channel. Was that the first click, last click or somewhere in the middle.
And then from there you can reattribute how many clicks, calls, whatever else.
we're actually generated truly by direct. Versus somebody came to your website from organic first, maybe they bookmarked it or remembered it, and then they came back later.
And then whenever you look at the business data, you can understand how many calls from direct channel where existing customers versus new customer.
And that also gives you understanding of where they might have heard of you or, how they remembered you.
It's not a hundred percent accurate. The main point from here is they already know you somehow.
And then out of slew of all of your marketing activities, you can estimate where they could be coming from.
And, really you can't say that, okay, if it's direct, all of the direct channel leads and whatever else, I gonna attribute 90 percent of them to organic search. It doesn't work like that.
So you treat it as its own thing.
And really it's going to be related to brand awareness, and there's plenty of other metrics and tools that, track that.
How many brand searches? You can look even in Google search console to see that breakdown. So I hope I answered your question.
Crystal Waddell: Yeah, you did.
Understanding Brand SearchCrystal Waddell: I noticed this when people would come from Pinterest to my account.
The Challenge of Attributing Sales to Pinterest LeadsCrystal Waddell: I've always had a really hard time attributing sales to Pinterest leads.
Pinterest is actually the place I get most of the leads to my site. But I'm an e commerce seller.
I make handmade goods. That's where I put most of my marketing efforts into, right?
What I'm hearing you say is if I added a UTM code to those pins, it should then attribute to Pinterest?
Dmitrii Kustov: So that's a little bit weird. We have a couple of clients that are, that have a high, share of Pinterest traffic.
And in Google analytics, it splits it normally.
I forgot whatever the default grouping falls under, but then under that we see that it is, it does come from Pinterest.
It's also, as far as I remember, cause I haven't been in Pinterest platform, business platform in a bit.
There is a field where you actually add, at least for universal analytics, you add your, UA code, the G the Google analytics, UA.
Account number, basically.
And then it integrated nicely. I don't know about GA4.
Now, a couple thoughts right off the top of my head for you to test.
Is the Pinterest, whenever you do the pins, there's a link if you need to a certain product page, whatever else.
The Use of UTM Codes in Tracking TrafficDmitrii Kustov: And that link can be anything. UTM, tag it.
I don't know if they allow short codes. That could be a way to, not hide it, but make it a bit easier for users to understand.
Because sometimes people look at the link and it says regex. co. com slash UTM underscore medium equals and they freak out.
It's Oh, something's weird. if they allow short codes, I don't know, what are those?
Crystal Waddell: Like a pretty link or something?
Dmitrii Kustov: Like Bitly or one of those. And then you just, wrap it with all of your UTM tags in there, then there you go. That might help. I don't know if they allow it though. I don't remember.
Not many of our clients use Pinterest. But yeah, there is, there should be a way to properly tag it.
And if By default traffic from Pinterest falls somehow on the direct. There is a mess somewhere for sure.
Because I last week I looked at the, our clients, Google Analytics that uses Pinterest a lot. It's about 30 percent of their traffic overall.
And it's very clearly separated in Google Analytics. So somewhere, something's not working right on your end.
The Difference Between Google Analytics and GA4Crystal Waddell: I could definitely tell the difference when, like in the statistics available in Universal analytics versus GA4.
And then there's been little blips over the year because I'm a big Pinterest follower of, what they're doing.
And there's been issues with Pinterest over 2023.
So I just noticed that my direct traffic went way up. And traffic attributed to Pinterest went way down.
It was almost like an inverse relationship. So it was pretty obvious that it's like, Oh, that's weird.
So I'm definitely going to try those UTM tags.
Dmitrii Kustov: So yeah, G4.
I still hating it. I
Closing Thoughts on GA4Dmitrii Kustov: think they messed it up. Hopefully over time it's going to become easier to work with it. Now, what might be happening in GA4, and again, don't quote me on this. the way they combine the sources, the medias is different.
Their default channel is different and you can create your own custom groupings.
Customizing GA4Dmitrii Kustov: that's the beauty of GA4. You can customize the heck out of it. What I would suggest is just looking, if you can basically separate it out through filters.
Whatever it's gonna be, source, medium, referral, domain, whatever else.
Creating Your Own DashboardDmitrii Kustov: And then after you create your own dashboard or your own grouping. Maybe it's going to be right there and discover it.
Yeah, I interested now. I need to look at how it's being tracked for our client, in GA4. Cause I was looking in universal, for my report, last report.
Exploring Brand SearchCrystal Waddell: Let's talk just really quick about brand search and how we can maybe show up more in brand search.
Because I think that's probably really important in the future.
And how maybe local businesses can approach that.
Dmitrii Kustov: Okay. There's not much to it really.
Understanding Brand SearchDmitrii Kustov: Brand search is when somebody searches for a company name. And I hope you're going to show up for your own company name.
In the very, very beginning of business journey, you might not, but.
Optimizing Your Business for Brand SearchDmitrii Kustov: All it takes is a bit of time. A few mentions here and there, making sure that you're, obviously the website itself contains the mentions of your own name.
The Google My Business is properly optimized for that.
The Bing places profile, same thing. And then maybe a few mentions on other websites.
Big directories is where you should be anyway. obviously depends on where you, what business you are in, what industry you're in.
But there is a typical like Yelps of the world and obviously Facebook and all of the Instagram profiles. And after that, couple of months after you. Create the website and then the business name.
You're going to show up for your own brand name.
Now, quick hack.
Quick Hack to Expedite Brand SearchDmitrii Kustov: If you need to expedite it, do a web press release. They're fairly inexpensive. I think they're about a hundred bucks and, mostly it's literally only for brand name exposure. If you have a really good story, it could get picked up and could go even viral, but it has to be a really good story with a really good message and all that stuff.
so yeah.
Crystal Waddell: Was that a website or a company and it's at a hundred dollars a month or a hundred dollars one time?
Understanding Web Press ReleasesDmitrii Kustov: Web PR. That's just a, like a press release, but it's on the web. there are plenty of different companies that do that.
Recommendations for Web Press Release PlatformsCrystal Waddell: Do you have someone that you've used before that you would recommend to anyone listening right now?
Dmitrii Kustov: We use newswire something. com. I forgot.
Just don't do the super expensive ones.
It doesn't make any difference.
They go to news websites. And they don't live there for long. if somebody like, let's say the platform promises you a hundred websites.
It will publish on a hundred websites.
But after about a week, it will only be live on maybe two, three, maybe five.
Because those types of websites that are secondary news sites. They publish it for a couple of days.
And if it doesn't get enough views, if it doesn't get enough attention, they kill it.
So for backlink building, it's not a good way to get a lot of links.
Digital PR for Link BuildingCrystal Waddell: After being at Brighton, the big chatter I felt like of Trends for 2024 is digital PR for link building.
And the people that I've spoken to about digital PR.
They're using professional agencies and shifting the link building budget to a PR agency.
The Value of LinksCrystal Waddell: I just wanted to make the differentiation between okay, Not all links value is the same.
So that's kind of the issue here, right? if you pay a hundred bucks and maybe get some links, are those links even from quality domains?
Dmitrii Kustov: And typically no.
The Importance of Public RelationsDmitrii Kustov: Now, as you said, now that you have folks coming on talking about digital PRs and stuff.
And obviously PR could stand for two things, for two, it's abbreviation for two different things, press release or public relations.
Crystal Waddell: Public relations is what I was talking about.
Dmitrii Kustov: So if it's public relations, then depending on the size of the company, it could be worth it. Like there, there are big companies that they have their own PR department. that deals with public. But it has to be a certain size of the company.
Data Before FeelingsDmitrii Kustov: And this is what I probably, how we can finish that thought is... data before feelings.
You have budget to test it and to experiment with if it's worth signing up with the PR agency.
Or, doing some kind of work in PR for your business. If you have the budget to test it with, sure, go ahead. I have no problem with that.
The main thing is track it, make sure that after a month or two or three, you can actually look at it and understand, okay, I spent this much money.
Because digital PR agencies, they're not cheap.
We have looked into them ourselves at some point. We wanted to hire somebody.
And, after Just running the numbers, it made no sense. Just track everything and then look at the data, trust the data.
Don't get sold.
That's another rule of mine. So because it sounds nice and good, it doesn't mean that you have to use that product or service.
Crystal Waddell: Okay.
Proven Strategies to Get Valuable BacklinksCrystal Waddell: So what about your tips and proven strategies to get valuable backlinks?
Dmitrii Kustov: Content marketing.
That's a giant umbrella.
In a short, concise way, what it is, create great content.
That looks at the problems from a different angle. That nobody else looked at before. Provide extreme value, extremely high value.
And that content over time, the more content and value provide, it will get picked up, it will get distributed, it will get quoted.
And linked to.
Basically, the idea is like, what is a backlink? If you think about it?
It's somebody else out there on the world of the internet saying that guy's good, go read that. And who in the world would say that if the content that you do has no value.
It has to be that good.
The reason viral videos exist is because everybody is kind of like, Oh, look, go look at that. That's pretty cool. That's awesome.
That's interesting. That's funny, whatever it is. in the world of business, it has to follow the same recipe where the content is providing value to folks on the internet.
So there you go.
Finding a Unique AngleDmitrii Kustov: How do you find a unique angle? what, do you guys have a process for doing that?
There's no process per se. Now, I am weird myself.
I have a lot of unpopular opinions. And I actually just did a talk at Levacon in San Diego, funny, funnily enough. And it was about it was more AI related, the chat GPTs and stuff like that.
But the answer really is the same.
The commandment or the rule that I came up with was, make them go, what?
So that's my idea.
If somebody writes it up like, wait, what? That doesn't sound right. Or that sounds not normal. Let me go check it out.
It's that innate. curiosity in people.
So either it sounds weird or unusual or something that you have not heard before. And you're just going to go check it out.
And as long as the content is good, then you're going to stay there and maybe share with your friends and coworkers and teammates and so on.
The Importance of ExperienceDmitrii Kustov: It, my, my thought is that in order to create great content, you have to have experience and be great at what you do first.
When you have an opinion, that's truly yours only, then you start getting content that is just looking at a problem or a question with it from a different angle.
Through your lens of experience or experiences.
The Role of Subject Matter ExpertsCrystal Waddell: So I'd love that you, you talk about, the subject matter expert being the one that's contributing to the article because that is so important.
I think it, it shows through.
Being generic versus being able to give like anecdotal experiences.
I think that really is a differentiator.
But if we were to talk about like actual elements on a page that makes a piece of content better than something else, do you have any tips about that?
Dmitrii Kustov: No, it doesn't matter to be honest.
Because there are people that consume content in different way.
And I myself prefer videos. But then when I talk to my teammates and they say that they prefer to read the text.
So I could say, make sure that there's videos, but then somebody else will say, I don't like videos.
I prefer reading because it's at my own pace. Or maybe some folks prefer infographics or images or whatever. So it's to each their own.
The Multiple Stone MethodDmitrii Kustov: Obviously, I guess you could kill multiple birds with, multiple stones. It's not going to be one stone, multiple birds, it's going to be multiple stones, multiple birds.
If you can create a content that has videos and images and infographics and texts, sure. Obviously it's going to take a lot of effort, but that could work.
Crystal Waddell: The multiple stone method.
Dmitrii Kustov: Yeah, there you go.
Crystal Waddell: If a local business or any business wants to work with your company, do you want to share like who you work with and who might be a good fit?
Dmitrii Kustov: Yeah, for sure. we work with two types of companies.
home service companies, any service, home service that is out there.
And then along our journey as a company, we're fortunate to be in a position where we can start to pave our own path.
And it's time to give back.
So we, our goal for 2024 is to start working with companies that are basically affecting the world in a positive way from the perspective of environment.
Green stuff.
From products to services, anything, but it has to be true. And not saying that we are a green company and then you look at them and they're oil and gas company.
Yeah, probably not.
But yeah, home services or green companies, because I want my kid to have a world or grandkids to have a world to live in.
In 50 years and not, be in the world from Lorax. If you know that, movie animation.
Crystal Waddell: Oh, yes. Yeah. How bad can it be? We sing the songs over here all the time.
Dmitrii Kustov: Air in the bottle
Crystal Waddell: One last question before you go because the industry that you serve, It's actually the industry that my family is in They own lawn care businesses.
Best Practices for 2024Crystal Waddell: And so I was just wondering, because you're here and I love them.
Do you have any tips for them in terms of, best practices in 2024?
Dmitrii Kustov: Start with data, of course, make sure that everything is trackable and, understand which of the channels are most profitable for you.
And then start dabbling, experimenting. With five to 10 percent of your marketing budget with channels that you have not explored yet.
one of the greatest examples of loan care marketing specifically, and I forgot the name of the YouTube channel, but I'm sure you've seen it.
Oh, the dude that goes around and does yards for free. And Something tells me he is not in lawn care anymore. He's in YouTube video production at this point.
He could have just kept doing, I don't know if he does, but he could have continued lawn business and produce those videos once a month or whatever.
Get a bunch of views, promote the name.
There you go. so yeah, I'd have to spend another week talking about specific strategies and examples and whatever else.
But, it just breaking everything by channel, understanding where the leads are coming from, where they're the cheapest leads, the best leads and. Doubling down on that and then starting experimenting.
Crystal Waddell: Awesome. Dimitri, it was so nice to meet you.
Closing ThoughtsCrystal Waddell: And I hope that, this connects you with some of those service providers that align with your mission. So thank you so
much.
Dmitrii Kustov: Thank you so much for having me.