Ep. 154: Sheep Hunting, Grizzly Bears & the Outdoor Community

They are the oldest firearms business in the world. They're coming up on 500 years of operation, which is crazy. And they are generously providing all Silvercorp club members with 25 percent off of all regularly priced clothing on the Stoger Canada website. And 10 percent off everything else. I bring this up. Because I'm extremely proud of what the Silvercore Club is able to offer. I love the Beretta Group. I use Beretta shotguns. I use Sakotika rifles.

I wear the clothing and I want to be able to share the things that I like with other people and with the Silvercore Club members. If that helps you get outside and look stylish and have kit that works, I want to be able to help you thrive in the outdoors. Now, without further ado, let's get on with this episode. We've got Sean Zabor from Silvercore Joe Appel from Silvercore Podcast 140. Missing, we will have to just send our regrets.

Missing is Kyle Stetler from Silvercore Podcast, if I remember right, it was number 38. He was one of the early guys on there. He was an OG. Yeah. The fact that you memorize that is very impressive. I'm not going to lie. I got on the phone and I had to look it up ahead of time. And I will forget all of that in a couple of hours. I can barely remember my name. The fact that you did that was great. It's pretty cool how we're able to bring all these different cultures together.

I, I walked through at the trade show here. So Sean, you've got Stonehouse Realty. That's, that's your business.

We've met a ton of people, got a lot of new clients, a lot of new friends. It's been an awesome show so far.

Like, yeah, kind of, but the reality is, and I think everybody that's into conservation, into hunting knows that almost all conservation, if not all of it comes from hunters one way or another. And especially with the wild sheep society, it's, it's about having a legacy that our kids and our families down the line, we'll be able to hunt these sheep for years and years and years. And, um, I think one thing is a big misconception for myself. Anyways, I've hunted everything. my entire life.

And I feel like sheep hunting is something that is just as much of adventure as it is hunting in and of itself. But, um, yeah, it's, it's, it's a funny conversation with clients when you're telling them these things, because it seems like an oxymoron that, yeah, we do harvest these animals, we do kill them. But the reality is, is you do it very, very few and far between, um, in comparison to how many times you go out. But the fact that they're there because of societies like this is And

You know, farm sheep are getting too close to our wild sheep, introducing diseases, a lot of that stuff that most people aren't aware of. That's what a lot of these funds go towards. So it's a habitat restoration. Um, you know, right now, huge projects going along the Fraser River with Movi, what's been going on there. The capturing, testing, making sure we're moving those diseased sheep. Um, so it's a lot of that that goes on and that stuff has so much more impact.

In the big, you know, picture. So, yes, the community does harvest and remove some of those rams, but the number of rams that are back on the mountain because of groups like Wild Sheep Society BC, and if you look at it, I mean, look at the numbers, no group. In conservation period from what I have seen is making sure that the money that comes in goes directly out boots on the ground projects for everything.

But, um, you're here for the sport, the love, the hobby of, of, uh, Uh, sheep hunting, but the reality is, is everybody's just as behind to actually like, like, I've never been to any kind of event where everybody's doing every kind of like 50, 50 draw or gun draw or this, like everybody's putting money into everything, you know, and they know the likelihood of winning this close to zilch, like every other draw. Right.

But it's, for them, it's just a way of giving and it's, it's something that really impresses me how, how tight knit this specific community is really started to become.

I think the general public, and I'm hoping that this is coming across, the general public is starting to realize it's not just about killing animals. It's really about getting out there as a community, it's family, it's, it's, uh, so many different things. It's wildlife in its, in and of itself, protecting our resources, right?

Like, even if we look at history, there wouldn't be any national parks in the States if there wasn't Theodore Roosevelt, you know, and, you know, one of my idols, and that guy was a massive hunter, right? So, um, it's nice to see. It becoming cool again, for lack of a word, to get out there and hunt. Why do you think that is?

But I think there was a big push back into holistic nutrition, you know, becoming physically fit, getting outdoors. And I did notice a big uptake. I think that was some of the biggest spikes we've had in, uh, fishing license sales, new tags, new hunters coming into the fold from what I read back then. Um, and I just think it's transition people really. Slow down and looked at what mattered the most and you talked about it earlier.

It's all these people getting together about their love of the outdoors. All it takes is that will first trip into the mountains for most people. And right away, you either know if you love it or you hate it. And I think the vast majority of people have forgotten how much they truly love and rely on the outdoors. Because the outdoors teaches you so much about who you are as an individual, but it's also an opportunity.

I mean, you see a lot of families walking around here with their kids, their second, third generation in the society. Um, and, and it's an opportunity for you to get out completely disconnect from everything and soak up what really matters the most. I mean, you get out there, it's humbling. It doesn't matter if you're, I mean, there's a lot of guides walking around here.

You see guys at guide camp, there's millionaires and there's wrench pullers in the hunt camp and it's just, it's everything's broken down to the basics. And, um, I think that's a big part of what people are starting to see again is, you know, in a time where there's so much divide between groups, everybody seems like they're splitting, finding a community that's just, it brings everybody back together.

And it doesn't matter, you know, if you're the richest guy in the room, the poorest guy in the room, whatever it is, like the mountains, you can't cheat the mountains, the mountains don't lie, right? Everybody is on the same playing field once you get out there. And I think there's just something special about that. And I mean, you guys see it this weekend.

Like it's just such a good, warm environment being here this weekend, the banquets, you sit down and it's just, everybody's there having fun together. It's that kind of traditional value. It's those good community vibes. Um, I think people are starting to come back to that. And again, to your, to your note, you know, the, the Joe Rogans of the world, people like that certainly do put it on. Not a pedestal, but on a platform and they do it in a well placed way.

Um, Travis, I think you do a phenomenal job in educating people and kind of breaching those divides. You know, there's a lot of education. We're opening the doors to people. I think there was a lot in the past where it was, it was made to be a community that was kind of kept to the side. And now all these other groups are trying to shut us down so much. It's like, okay, well, we need to open ourselves up, raise our voice because like our way of life is being targeted right now.

And if we don't start standing up. We, we can't get by with just having small numbers anymore. We need large numbers. So we have a larger voice. So I think there's a lot of different pieces falling into place and why it's becoming popular. Um, but yeah, I think it ultimately comes down to just. Once you're in the mountains, the people that are getting pushed to expose themselves to it. Once you're out there, you really realize how important it is to have that way of life.

I tell you, as I'm sure you guys are aware, they get sucked into the YouTube, to these iPads, to this, you know, these, these social networks that we're all a part of. Don't get me wrong. Sure. You know, we all, all do the YouTube and Instagram and all that jazz, but I, I think. As we become closer via social media, we really become much more separated and individualistic and so on and so forth.

And we get these dopamine hits from people liking us and following us that are totally not real, you know what I mean, for lack of a better word. And I think there really is very few things in this world that we get to truly experience that is legitimately real.

You know, and when you're in the forest, when you're in the bush, when you're got a pack on your back, and just like you guys said, it's the ultimate level, it makes no difference what that guy does, or has done in the past, or making money, doesn't make money, it's, you guys are both suffering, you know what I mean, you've both got packs, you're both going up the same mountain, like, it is, it is, The ultimate, um, equalizer of individuals.

And, and I think it's very few times that I realize that I'm actually in the moment. I'm not thinking about, you know, what happened yesterday with business or where I'm planning or my goals are, or all these other things are just like, yeah, just don't fall off this cliff, you know, like do not die. Next step. That's about it. Right. So, um, yeah, it's, it's, uh, almost like a form of meditation to me in some sort of way. It's pretty, pretty awesome. Pretty profound for sure.

And once you're out there, it's like, okay, I'm in the mountains. Um, am I going to be warm enough to survive tonight? Am I going to have enough food? Am I going to have enough water? Like, it's literally shelter, food, heat. Like, that's what's going through your mind, and then in those moments, you know, when things are going, like, the hunt's tough, or whatever it is, you get weathered into your tent for two, three days, and it's like, okay, what do you miss the most? Do you miss your family?

Like those types of things. So then all of a sudden everything falls into perspective. All that other stuff that you think matters. You're like, does it really matter?

And it just, so then you come out of the mountains and it's like, everything in life makes sense and then you're back out for too long and everything, you know, it all gets muddled together and you start stressing about the wrong stuff and it's like, my wife will look at me sometimes and be like, you need to leave the house and go in the mountains. And I don't, I'm like, okay, she's doing that for me. And I try and tell myself she's doing that for me.

Maybe she just wants me out of the house, but I do know that when I come back. I try and remember and lock that feeling in because Everything seems so clear in the day to day as soon as you come out of the mountains. But then once you get right back into that, that rat race and you're back on that spinning wheel, it's tough to keep it in that perspective.

Society tells us we have a lot of these responsibilities that we just have to do, right? So when we do step outside, you do go in the mountains. You get to be a kid again. You get to disconnect from all of that. Which is a freedom that many people that don't hunt never really, truly experience. But there is on some level, I have this guilt right up until the second my boots hit the dirt and I'm out of the truck or I'm out of service.

I have this guilt of, you know, am I putting myself ahead of my responsibilities? Am I supposed to be, I don't wanna say a martyr, but like, are you supposed to just carry those burdens and eat it on a day to day basis?

But over the years I've seen this knowledge of like, okay, yes, this time away is necessary because when I come back, I am such a better person that I'm able to do everything else and deal with those burdens and deal with those responsibilities at such a higher level that it's like this necessary give and take. It's like. When you're busy with work, you're a fit guy. When you're busy with work, sometimes work's getting so like, okay, I don't have a minute to spare today.

I'm not going to go to the gym. You don't perform well that day. You've got this fog, this haze, and you don't realize it. Cause you're like, I'm just gonna keep my head down. I'm going to get through it. I don't have a minute to spare to get to the gym. If you take even 20 minutes to half an hour to do a quick workout, get the endorphins flowing, you're going to get twice as much done that day, but you had to sacrifice that window of time.

And I really do think, you know, sometimes that time in the mountains is like that 20 to 30 minute workout. Sometimes it's only a day. Sometimes it's a 14 day trip if you're really lucky, but it will make you perform at such a higher level at everything else. Because again, you can prioritize, you can function at a higher rate.

Right. So I think it's, it's nice to have that disconnect, but.

Just like you said, I think if it a puts everything in perspective for me Like it is crazy to me how many people that live in the lower mainland have never been past like Kelowna or God forbid Prince George and you talk about going up to like, you know, where Muncho Lake or something way up north there The beauty that we're surrounded with it just opens your eyes and most people have never actually Laid under the stars and seen an actual the stars without

light pollution, you know Like you don't understand how bright it actually is what Milky Way actually looks like right? so I think it puts everything into perspective plus I'm a big believer just like in training that If you do difficult things and sheep hunting without a doubt is an incredibly difficult things in most cases, everything else in life just goes, comes a lot easier. You know, like, I'm like, Oh, I got to go to a business meeting. I got to wake up at five.

Darn. Like that's a lot easier. Yeah, exactly. It's a lot easier than sleeping on in a tent, climbing up a mountain with a 90 pound pack. Right. Then I overpacked like usual, you know, it's, it's a completely, completely different beast for sure. Overpack as usual.

Oh, you know what? I checked the weather again I might need that and then the bag it's heavier and heavier and then every time I come out of the mountains I look at my list and I what didn't I use

But I, my favorite thing though, is when you're on the mountain every day, I'm like, Oh, I just each day, my backpack, I'm like, I got 1. 6 pounds later today. This is great. That mountain's going to feel a little bit easier tomorrow.

And, uh, so there's kind of like a meal replacement. It's a little bit higher calorie protein power. Cause we always take protein bars. Cause for breakfast, we don't, we never really have breakfast. It's just coffee and, you know, cliff bar or whatever, and kind of get going. But, um, this protein powder was pretty, it was pretty good in the overall size. is it doesn't take up too much size, not too much weight. You're getting calories and it's a lot of protein, longer lasting.

So I think I'll probably try that again next year. Maybe I won't bring as much as I did last time, but we're pretty good. Speaking of powders,

You lose a lot of those oils. So that's, that's originally what I, why I happened on MCT powder is because I used to bring individual packs of peanut butter and I rip it open and dump it in all my meals. And then I was like, Oh, I'm gonna use the powder. It's going to be the same as the peanut butter. And it wasn't. So I was like, well, how do I get that fat back in? Then I found the MCT powder. And then I was like, well, I don't just need to use this in my breakfast.

I'll use the powder in my dinners and everything. And it's. It kind of works out well. It works

Obviously there's rumors of elections coming. How do you guys think that's going to affect obviously gun ownership and, uh, more important, us as hunters? What are your guys thoughts, and this is kind of a two pronged question, on grizzlies coming back? I've heard it's a possibility, I don't know what's happened, but I've been told by some COs that it might be in the works somehow.

How can we generate revenue from this that can give back? To the monitoring of these species give back, because I mean, the hunts previously brought a lot of money to the table, not just for the bears, but for other species as well. Right. So shutting that down was the very, we got an announcement. Should we pause for a second? But shutting that down was a very, very nearsighted, short sighted.

I mean, if they had to do anything, maybe they should have shrunk the numbers a bit, but, but something's going to happen here pretty soon, whether it's the government stepping in and doing it silently and spending taxpayers dollars to make it to reduce. The numbers essentially, or opening things back up in a way that can generate that revenue and create some positivity that comes from it.

And I mean, if you look at it in that way, I mean, yes, we are biased, obviously, but if you just look at that and you take emotion out of it, it is hard to argue against that type of approach, which is I think what we all struggle with is, yes, we're biased, so we want to bring it back. But the other side is just so passionate.

Against it that they're it's like when you're in an argument with somebody like I don't care if I make sense or not I just need to show that I'm right and it's like okay But are you even listening to the words coming out of your mouth?

I, I remember years ago, um, Corporation of Delta, before it became the City of Delta, they had a, a meeting there. They said, look, we're thinking about doing what Surrey did and we're going to. We're not going to get rid of the gun stores and the firearms businesses, but we're going to put a moratorium existing ones can stay But anyone new they can't come in and man. I had all my logic.

I had all my stats I had all my stuff and I'm up there at City Hall going through my stuff and I think was his name Barry Conkin. I think was his name says hold on Travis Like I see you have a bunch of pages like how much more of this you have I said, well, I don't know I got I start going through it. He says I'm gonna stop you right there. I agree with you a hundred percent. Everything you say makes sense. O okay, so why are you contemplating this change then, right?

He says it's got nothing to do with what makes sense. It's got nothing to do with what I agree with. It's got to do with what we think the constituents want, and if we have a vocal Constituency who says this is what we want, then we're going to have to entertain it. They didn't end up enacting the moratorium like they're going to, but they at least went through the motions of seriously considering it.

So I, I think when it comes to the bear one, I as well have heard that they will be bringing bear hunting back in. I have had negative grizzly bear encounters. We have a generation of grizzly bears now who have grown up to not be afraid of humans, not have a respect for humans. I tried to scare one off that was getting way, way, way too close and I fired around beside it thinking that big boom, that concussive force, that'll get it going off. It didn't even flinch.

It didn't associate that with danger or me with danger. I

They're out there everywhere, just like the wolves and we, now obviously we have a call in a lot of different places on the wolves. There's still a ton of them, but last year on my sheep hunt, or this year, sorry, on my sheep hunt. We saw three of them. One went through our camp. The other one was chasing us down while we were leaving. Like it was insane. And when on our way out, uh, we took the, Jason brought us up there on the jet boat.

And, uh, excuse me, on our way out, I was actually with Chuck was on the same boat with me from spike camp and we're chatting and apparently, and don't quote this number, but it's something ridiculous like this, that. In the last decade that they had the open grizzly hunt, right, it's something like 90 percent of all these grizzlies that were shot weren't on a purpose hunt. They weren't out there hunting grizzlies.

They were in an elk hunt, they were in a sheep hunt, they were in a moose hunt, and they all had tags, they were all legally taken, but these were problem bearers coming into camps. They were taking the meat. They were, you know, being aggressive, putting humans at risk. End. It was a massive majority of all bear shot were problem bears, right? And now who's got to take care of it.

You talk to the guys, the CEOs that are working up in Dawson and so on and so forth, like 95 percent of their calls are taking care of some kind of bear. That's a nuisance bear that a hunter could have taken care of when, you know, they were protecting their, their meat and whatever it is. So it's not even the, you're now allowing these problem bears, like you said, they're, it's a generation of. Problem bears, you know, or, or issues with them. So it's interesting to say.

So what about the gun stuff?

These birds are really smart. What if these birds are like, I want a gut pile. Because sometimes it feels like they're indicating to me, when I'm out there, of where an animal could be. Because I've been starting to pay attention to the ravens and finding success in my hunt. Have you guys done that? There's, there's

It's also like, I mean, I don't know if it's on the same vein, but like if you're going in the mountains and you see an owl or something, it's supposed to be great luck. But, but yeah, I, I've heard a lot of. Stories of individuals that go out in the mountains, and they look for the ravens and crows and go, okay. I'm going to see where they take me today.

If I look back in the past, I even remember as a kid, like being looked down on that we were hunting with a gun because the guy was a bow hunter. So he's more of a superior hunter. You know, there's always been these types of like riffs in our community. And I think now it's starting to get a lot better because of the extremes of Trudeau. But the one thing, um, and Ron and I were talking about it as well is, you know, I own multiple restricted firearms that are going to be taken away.

I think I got like nine, Nine or ten guns that are now prohibited in my, in my gun safe, right?

And, um, for me I'd really like to see, and I love the fact that the Wild Sheep Society is doing this, having him, he's speaking tonight, I think he was saying, right, and having him a part of them and so on and so forth, just combining it a little bit more with sport shooters, um, guys that were doing three gun, cause I think it's important that we all are very solidified beside the fact, because I think there's still some and genuinely I feel even the last

year or two, it's been a big change, but I think there's still some hunters out there that don't believe that their guns are literally on the chopping blocks right now that believe that, oh, they'll never get rid of bolt actions. They'll never get rid of this. They'll never get rid of that. Um, I don't know. What are your guys thoughts on that?

It's not like these groups or the, the opposition is going to go, okay, we won the battle. That was the only battle we want. We walk away, right? For them, they have a long plan and they're a unified group. So talking about, you know, how fragmented we are and everybody's in their own pocket and they're like, Oh, that's their fight. It doesn't touch me. I completely agree as a society. We all need to understand like this isn't going to stop.

After one of these things, top on some of the groups, open state. Well, this is the only thing we're coming. We're only coming for the cat hunts. If the cat hunts stop, we're going to go away. Well, yes, that official organization might go away, but you don't think 90 percent of those members are going to come back under a different umbrella, under a different name, with a different group. Like that's, that's, what's going to continually happen. And that's what we see.

That's what we saw after the grizzly bear hunt. What really happens is every time they get a win. It's like a sports team. You gain that momentum and you become that much fiercer of a group. And then everybody rallies behind it because it's like, Oh wait, they actually were able to get a victory. Well, now I'm going to, now I really believe in it. We're going to have this change. We're going to do this.

And the challenge that we really face is on our side, we're really held under a microscope and we have to speak truths. We can't step out of line and falsify information. The other side, 90 percent of what they put on these banners, billboards, some of these people that they're teaching in school. It's completely false right now.

So, um, I kind of went on a bit of a tangent there, but I would say, you know, all of these different groups and all these different pockets in the shooting sports, everybody needs to come together. Because, like Rod said earlier this morning at the, at the life member breakfast, um, you know, a lot of the guns that have been put on the chopping block already are guns that he never in a million years would have thought would have come and they're gone and they're in the rear view mirror now.

And it's not like they're going to stop and go, okay, we got this. We're happy. I mean, you can just look at the list they're putting forward and they're literally just throwing spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks like there's no logic behind it. And that shows you alone that they don't have an end in sight. They're just going, let's grab as many as we can now. And then we'll let them calm down a little bit and then they'll go, okay, everything's fine.

And then we'll come back and we'll grab a few more and we'll grab a few more. And it's the same thing they're going to do with the hunting licenses. They're going to go, okay, no, wait, no. They stood up and fought for the cats. Okay. We won't, we won't go after cats. What else can we go after? What else can we sneak away while everybody's looking over here?

What else can we pull out the back door and that's what they're gonna keep doing They're circling and they're just gonna pull away pull away and pretty soon We're gonna be sitting there and you're on the last hill and people are gonna go. How did we get here? And it's because everybody didn't come together. Everybody didn't get each other's backs, right?

Like that's that's what needs to happen So to your point like I agree we need to get everybody together and one unified front messaging needs to be consistent across the board Um, that's essential if we're gonna, the way things are going, I mean, yes, maybe obviously some changes in office could impact that, but I mean, yes, it could make things a lot better, but is that going to stop some of these organizations? They're always going to find a way to come after us.

So we do, as a community, need to come together, bring more into the fold, increase our numbers. Larger numbers, stronger voice, and then everybody's forced to listen to the larger numbers. Because everybody just listens to the loudest voice in the room, unfortunately.

Can I just put my hoof inside your tent? And before you know it, you're sleeping outside and your camel's on the inside. And that's how this goes. I'm not a hundred percent sure. That trying to organize the, uh, the hunting community and the firearms community is the best option. Like if the entire firearms community, the entire hunting community got up and they started saying, here's what's going on. And they're fighting with logic.

Uh, again, we find ourself in that situation where you're trying to fight emotion with logic. I think. You've already, arguments already been framed in a way where you're fighting a losing battle. I think the argument needs to be framed, reframed a little bit differently, such as, if they can come for this from you, why couldn't they come for that for you?

And I see Canadian Federation of Independent Businesses doing that, the CFIB, and they're looking at property rights as opposed to, oh, if they take your handguns or your shotguns or your rifles, they're saying, Well, if they can arbitrarily come in and say, you can't have this through ordering counsel through no legislative, uh, voting, no, no due process, what's to stop them from doing something similar when it comes to your bank account, when it comes to your

business, when it comes to your house. And I think the voice, the numbers that you need to come from more of that visceral emotion where all the people are like. In the gun community, I don't own handguns, it doesn't bother me, or the non hunters and the non firers people, that's you, that's you guys, how does that affect me? Well, the amount of money it costs on these, and I'm going to do air quotes here for people listening, the buyback, which is, it's just confiscation. Yeah,

You're trying to, um, everybody hates to use COVID, but you said as an example, uh, during COVID, it doesn't matter if you believe in it, don't believe in it, think it kills people, don't think it kills people, the vaccine, whatever it is, how the government villainized people, in my personal opinion, was completely wrong. Right.

And that's, you see families that have completely stopped talking to each other that have like disowned each other that because one's like an anti vaxxer, one's a vaxxer. I won't even use anti vaxxer, just didn't believe in that particular one or whatever the case is. So it's a very, very powerful tool to split communities. With certain beliefs, right?

So I feel like if our community comes together and we realize that we're all fighting the same fight, A. B, if we realize the fact that, and Joe hit it on the nail, you look at all these conservation, or sorry, not, they're not conservation groups, all these groups that are trying to say get rid of the bear hunt or get rid of, at the end of the day, you look at their, their motivation at the end, It is to eliminate all hunting.

You look at any of these people that are trying to get rid of any kind of guns, uh, or, you know, the ARs to start with or whatever it may be. Their motivation in the very end is to eliminate all firearms. It is not. This is all just a starting point. We all really have to realize that if we don't fight back now, and that is really what you're doing.

If we don't come together as a force, I think we're going to be, uh, we're going to have, we won't have anything left to fight for because everything. And, and Joe, you said this as well as like, I mean, it's death by a thousand cuts, really what it is is just creating normalization, like I've already heard people, well, you know, I've given up. I'm not going to get my arrow back or I've given up. I'm like, it's gone.

Well. The reality is if you give that up, right, and you have that mentality that it's given up, you will never get it back because now you're just focused on fighting what you're going to still be able to keep now instead of moving back into the retrospective where we were, right? So, I, I, I think it's, it's, uh, it's a challenging time. Luckily, I think we're in the right direction in a lot of cases.

Excuse me, but I think a third prong attempt too, and I think this is like, you guys are doing an incredibly great job about this and, you know, the Joe Rogans of the world and so on and so forth, is, I think, bringing other people into the scope of the outdoors, right? Getting them to understand.

People that camp, people that, um, I think a massive, massive thing that we really need to focus on is bringing more women into, into our activities or sports or shooting or, or hunting or, you know, getting them involved, understanding how much of a family practice this is, you know, like getting kids involved. Bringing people that are outside of our community to go fire a gun and realize that, Hey, the gun didn't jump off the table and start killing people. You know what I mean?

And we just had some psychos once in a blue moon that did things right. So I think there's a lot of opportunity to kind of bring that awareness and having. Um, you know, for lack of a better word, these celebrities or having people that are out there voicing their opinions loud and clear and speaking well and showing by action, leading by example, I think these are ways that we can definitely change the tide and you're seeing it in the states.

You're seeing it here in a lot of cases in Alberta and so on and so forth. I think we need to keep pressing. My worry is, is we do bring another government in. That will be a good government. And all of a sudden we lay off, lay off the gas and we're like, Oh, we're good now. And then we set ourselves up for sure. It's for another Trudeau and whenever years,

When it comes to situations, like the ones we're talking about, it's a very polarizing argument, but the big thing is the majority of society, like, yes, maybe 10, 15, 20 percent sit at either end and they're going, okay, what do we do with this 8, 60 to 80 percent of the population that's in the middle? How do we reach them? And for us, sometimes we just speak our side and hope that people will understand it.

But a lot of those people in the middle who don't hunt, who don't have guns, who don't see it, they're like, well, I live in, you know, um, City center. I don't see these things. Why would you need to hunt? Why would you need to? Because like we talked about earlier, vast majority of people have never gone north past to these really wild places. They don't see grizzly bears on a daily basis. They don't see wolves. They don't see what's actually happening on the, on the landscape.

Finding a way to reach them and showing them that we're not these villains like Certain groups are really trying to make us out to be so saying well, this is why we're actually frustrated So, you know educating somebody with a piece and you know, could you imagine you're watching a video and it talks about you know What would you do if one day you woke up and someone told you something about a vehicle or your property or your right for?

Some sort of other freedom or uh, you know, and then this was all done With no education, there's no logic behind the decisions and you, you structured it that way, people's hair on their back would stand up and they go, how could something like that happen? And you go, well, that is what's been happening here and then, and then bring them in all of a sudden people might start paying attention. So, and then bring them in and then bring them as a part of this unified society of everybody else.

And then that voice grows. So I think both pieces of that can come together and yeah, cause right now it's one of those challenging things is. I feel like the hunting society, the shooting society, has always rested on historically of, you know, the actions speak louder than words, but like the silent type, this is the way it's been, this is the way it should always be. Because we talk about the heritage, we talk about this is what's always been happening.

But that, I don't think that dialogue, that story is serving us as well as it used to, and it's changing. So I think finding ways to change our story, to change how we bring other people into the fold is very important.

They might not understand hunting, but they understand food and where that food comes from. Maybe there's a segue in. How about the indigenous people out there as hunting and fishing as a part of a way of life? You're going to tell them that they shouldn't be able to hunt anymore. And if you wouldn't say that, why would you say that to another group? Like, are you racist? Right? It's, I mean, the same sort of logic could be used back and forth, but I think really, and you're right.

There's always going to be the few percent that are one side, few percent the other side. And most of the people in the middle, they just don't care. They're, they're not even, it's not even on their radar, but even if you take those ardent opposition on either side, you'll probably find that you have more similarities than you do have differences.

That you don't like guns because you've been negatively affected by it, or you've read about things in the news where people have been negatively affected, so you want to get rid of them all. Well, guess what? The gun people over here, they don't like this stuff they're seeing in the news and they don't want to be negatively affected. But if we get rid of it all, does that mean that we're going to stop all gun violence? Well, no. What's the end objective? We want to have a safe society.

If we get rid of all hunting, what's that going to mean? Well, we're no longer going to have conservation groups that actually look after and manage these animals. And we have things for generations to come. Do you want animals for generations to come? Yes. Well, maybe we should reframe how we're looking at that. And I think if we start looking at those similarities that we have and picking away at those, we might have a different conversation.

Because the second we're on these polar sides, I don't think either side really gets anywhere.

I think over the last, and I think this is one of the reasons why we're actually starting to see a shift politically and all these other things is because the 10%, I'll just call it out as the left, let's just say the extreme left, has been so loud and has been basically shaming everybody else. You know, outside the rest of the 90 percent that they've been shaming their way into getting things done. How do how do we?

All of these things we talk about, bringing people into the community, uh, showing them, for example, like, hey, you may have nothing to do with guns, but, uh, that car, you know, why do you have to have a thousand horsepower car? You know, you could kill a bunch of people and you're taking way too much fuel and so on and so forth. Like, we're gonna confiscate that because nobody needs that. Just like nobody needs a semi automatic weapon, for example. And we're using these types of things.

How do we get our voice out there, like the 1 percent of the extreme left have over the years?

Like you guys literally work and breathe in, in the hunting industry, outdoor industry. Um, how does, how does the regular average person that's here? Right? Or maybe that's not who we're saying, but the person that's in there, how do they get out and communicate and say these things and educate and like, what, if somebody is listening to this today, what should they do? Or, I'm not, we're obviously not telling them what to do, but at the end of the day, what can they do to make a difference?

Like if you have a point, let's make your point, as opposed to trying to argue the point. Because the second you find yourself arguing the point, and you're already in a position, let's say it's an emotional point, you're, you're Fighting against the flow of water. So if you can at least Uh, through your own discourse, start understanding how, uh, a different perspective of the argument. Like, hold on a second, let's talk. What is it you're trying to actually get at?

Or why would you say that when, rather than pointing to facts, use their same argument? In the same way that, like, when COVID happened, like you point out there, people would talk in hushed tones. They wouldn't want it, like It was really weird. I would have podcasts if people be off air. Like I wanted to say this, but I couldn't because I'd be canceled.

And you talk about, and you say the left, the extreme left, but there has been a very effective manipulation through media and through social media through cancel culture in the past. And I think the zeitgeist now is. There is a flavor for, uh, that to stop. People are not going to be bullied through DEI and saying, Well, you don't agree with this diversity, equity, inclusion thing. So you must be a racist. You must be a Nazi, right?

I think that's where the, um, I don't think we lose messaging on what we think is factually correct. But I think we have to be more adept at being able to Uh, reframe an argument or point out in a way that will humiliate in the same way that you would be humiliated, right? Just point out the ludicrous of it.

Like people are on there they're baiting you and they want you to step in and sometimes the first reaction the first thing you want to type in there and say is Almost gonna prove their point and then you know Unvalidate anything you're gonna say after that. So so taking that step and going I always Use a term, you know used to play professional sports.

Like it's, like when someone's getting arrested, you know, anything you say can and will be used against you in the court of law. It's the same thing.

You can have your, your conversations about certain things and speak in a certain tone amongst the boys, amongst your hunt group, whatever it is, but when you're going on social media, understand, a lot of the time I try and, and I, don't get me wrong, I don't get it perfect all the time, I make a lot of mistakes, understand that you're You're not always when I speak or respond to somebody, I'm not even thinking, how is this person going to react to it?

I go, everybody that reads this, whose side are they going to take? And if you get involved too emotionally and too aggressive and you're just, you know, start name calling things like that. Everybody's going to go, wow, this guy is this redneck idiot, right? Like that's what they're going to think. Wow. This person really, you know, caught him. Whereas. You know, every now and then you see the response, some responses, you know, you're just not going to win.

And I'll be honest, I block a lot of people like you're gone. Like I don't have time for you because this isn't nothing positive is going to come from this. But if someone's open to dialogue, I'll communicate with them, even if I know I'm not going to convince them, but I, okay, well, maybe some other people that they know are going to check this out. And then they're going to go, wow, this guy actually made a good point.

And we'll bring, we'll bring this full circle moment here is like we've all been here at this venue all weekend and you walk around every person in this building is one of the good ones because the best people you will ever meet, you meet through the outdoors, right? Because it just brings, it brings the best out in so many people.

We'll start winning some of that argument.

And I find oftentimes when I'm engaging in something, whether it's social media or wherever there's an initial emotional response, they're wrong. I'm right. I know I'm right. I know they're wrong. However. There's a lot of power to asking questions because there has been once or twice, maybe, where I was mistaken and I misunderstood what was going on.

And a lot of powerful, um, statements can be made through asking a question and it leaves you with some leeway to be able to retreat and understand. And I think that's what people should be seeking to do is to understand each other prior to seeking to. Prove your point, because if I can understand you and hopefully we can then reach a point where you can understand me, we'll probably find pretty similar where we're at.

I feel like somebody stealing something from me, you know, so there's a lot of things, especially somebody stealing something from me that would be crying that I'm stealing something from them of that wouldn't even be significance type deal. Right? So, um, but I hear everything you guys are saying, and I've been, I'm like, well, Hey, why don't I just apply what I do in sales, which is.

So it brings it to the forefront that it is more or less just a bias, not an actual reason why. And then you can start having a conversation, right? So it's funny that you mentioned this over the last couple of years. I've learned to bite my tongue a bit and Joey hit around the fort and it's like, okay, no, not supposed to say that. Uh, definitely get a ban for that one. And then, uh, yeah, just think it through and then just start with the question process is huge. Okay. On a lighter tone.

Last question. What's your favorite animal to hunt? Are

And afterwards I look back and I go, why the heck did I do that? Because it still gets me so fluttered. Whereas some of the other hunts, don't get me wrong. I make, I make mistakes on every hunt that happens, but with Blacktail, it just, it always brings me right back into that childhood memory and just. Because let's be honest, blacktail hunting, if you're doing it right, a lot of the time, it's the nastiest, rainiest, most miserable day.

And half the time I'm out there, I'm like, why do I love this so much? I, I hate that I love it so much, but that's what it is. It's that nostalgic hunt for me. That's, that's what brings it back. That, and talking about that, uh, type two verging on the side of type three kind of hunt. The whole part leading up to, I mean, cause I injured that deer. And then it was over a 24 hour recovery process and tracking it down. And finishing the job

And, uh, yeah, I saw that buck and when I found out when it was a miss, I went, you know what, dad, I let you down. But then when I found out I injured it, it was just like this weight really letting him down just made it that much heavier. So then 24 hours later or whatever it was having it all come together. Um, and that's a hunt that's going to be tough to top for me. And, uh, yeah, that, that was a beautiful buck though.

And then the way it finished with the tumble into the, over the 80, a hundred foot cliff into the river bottom. And

So I would say for the overall challenge, it would be, it would be a sheep hunter, a goat hunt. Um, But it's not something I could do more than once a year. You know what I mean? Like some of these guys, these young guys I'm talking to, I'm going three sheep hunts next year.

But, uh, but really, I think last year, my favorite hunt to date, uh, and I have some really great ones with my dad too, but I think it's bringing Hunter, my, my oldest out, and him shooting his first couple grouse with a Pelican and a 410. It's crazy. Like when I, um, I used to compete, uh, as you guys know, in MMA and Jiu Jitsu and so on and so forth. And there were, it was always awesome.

You know, fighting in front of thousands of people is really cool, but nothing replaces like watching some of my students that were 15 years old when the Pan Ams and stuff like you just get this, uh, I don't know, you're, you feel like you're doing the right thing.

You know, when you're out there hunting, it's sometimes like, especially on a sheep hunt where you're gone for a couple of weeks, it can be a. A selfish moment, you know, you like, you feel like that kind of like what you're talking about, Joe, like you're leaving your family, you're leaving all these other things. I mean, even though it's a must and it's something that's really good for you. And I think you bring it back to your family, tenfold and your friends and so on and so forth.

But yeah, I think like watching it pass down in the generation, I think it's, it's yeah, huge for me for sure. No, there's something

And, and, and I think it's something special too. It's every. You know, father, parents dream is that their Children will want to go into it. And for me, it's not so much that I want him to be a driven, motivated hunter. I just want him to learn all the lessons and the values that I lost that I learned through my experiences out there. It teaches you so much about perseverance, about trials and tribulations, about doing everything right. And stuff's still not working out. Um, and just.

You know, it, it teaches you all of those lessons, those values being prepared, responsibility. Um, so, so that's what I really want to be able to hand on down to them. So, I mean, when you were talking about that, like it literally gives me goosebumps thinking about when I'm at the age where I get to see those boys doing the, oh man, it's, that's a dream. It's

Um, what are like a couple of the different levels? What, what should they be doing? I mean, might as well, we're here. Let's, let's promote. First

And then you can get into the tiers of the lifetime memberships. Um, after your original lifetime membership, there's actually opportunities to get charitable tax receipts as well, which is a big driver. Um, and then a new one we launched last year is the, the half curl membership, which is for.

It's it's a lifetime membership for our members under 18 and it's a that's a 500 membership But then you're a lifetime member up until your 18th birthday Don Stevens were sitting across from his booth right now All of our half curl members were presented with a beautiful plaque and a custom made knife from Don Stevens So they all get that it's and again, it's talking about, you know passing the torch.

We're hoping that You know, creating these special events, there's gonna be special hunts drawn just for our youth being able to, you know, prizes, raffles, everything that, and then throughout the year, we're gonna have different events for our youth as well. Um, but create that healthy funnel where we bring people up in this culture and show that it really is. Uh, family environment. It's a community. There's so much more to it. So, so that's a big thing.

But yeah, everything is available online. Go on the website, check it out. Um, and, and it's not one of those things where you have to have a ton of money to have an impact, you know, um, you can sign up for just a one year membership. And I was, I did, I think, I think two or three just one year memberships before I decided to be a life member. And now I'm a monarch. So I took a few steps after that. And now both my boys. Our half curl members.

And it's just one of those things where it's a group that I started on the outside and I saw the dollars that I put in directly trans transition to translate into boots on the ground. And then as I started going to the AGMs and started to go to these things, you really do see, like, it's not like some of those other organizations where 20 cents on the dollar actually makes it to the cause. So, so I started feeling better and better about it. And it's like, okay, well I'm putting money there.

I want to put my time there. And it's, it's just one of those communities where once you. Get your toe in the door. You don't want to leave and you want to do more, become more involved. You want to be a part of it more and more and more. And, uh, that's, so just get started. Get online. Sign up for just a year membership. Come down, check it out, see what it's all about. And it's just one of those places that you look forward to being every year.

I mean, we're giving away a guided whitetail hunt, and there's only, I think, less than 20 members right now that qualify. Both of my sons don't qualify for that hunt because they're under 10. It's only the 10 to 18 year olds. And those hunt opportunities are only going to get better year after year. So if you're going to sign up every, you're going to qualify for that every year from now until your 18th birthday. And it's, yeah, there's some great things.

And I do want to say that was my challenge. I issued Wyatt was yes. My I've checked that box. My challenge to myself to bring one member into the fold is on top of that. So that did not include Wyatt, but,

It doesn't have to be a one time purchase. It doesn't have to be that huge hit. You can, you can stagger it out throughout the year for sure.

And I can tell you one thing, and I'm obviously, it's an amazing thing and the support system for, um, for our wildlife in and of itself, but Hey, it's difficult to find people that want to actually do sheep hunting. It's difficult to find people that want to show you the way or learn from or so on and so forth. And I can tell you here. You hang out here, you become part of the society you're going to meet.

I'm not saying they're going to give you all their honey holes, but, um, you're going to meet people that are, you know, you can become friends with, go on sheep hunts, build that community. You can actually learn how to hunt. I mean, how many, uh, hunting university things did we have in the last couple of days, like 30 or 40 of them still go exactly. Right.

So. If you're looking like the price of admission to learn how to hunt these amazing, uh, uh, animals and to overall be a part of the community that will help you teach and learn and maybe find that hunting partner that you need that will actually put those boots on and head up the mountain is an amazing place to do it for sure worth every penny just on that alone to

So even if you don't intend to hunt, but you just love the outdoors, it's a phenomenal organization to get involved with on that basis alone. And then down the road, yes, maybe one day you'll get pulled into the fold and looped into going on a hunt or have an opportunity, but it's, you don't have to be a hunter to come here and feel good about being here and feel good about what your money's doing. Right. So.