Ep.135: Navigating the Impossible: Legally Obtaining an Authorization to Carry Restricted Firearms in Canada

So today's podcast is pretty massive in the world of Canadian firearms. Insofar as we're talking about authorizations to carry for an A TC and a TC is something that's typically viewed as unobtainium, meaning it's almost aus the way that it's issued by the RCMP firearms program. But I've kind of templated pro. And we've been successful since about 1994 onwards and been on the bleeding edge of every new authorization to carry recipient for wilderness carry, for work reasons.

Travis, thank you so much. Had some accolades there. I've got a lot to live up to.

Man. Oh, there's more. I could go into more. Should I go into more? Um, this is, so I've talked about getting an ATC in the past on the podcast. I think what we're going to call this one, maybe just. ATC Masterclass, Authorization to Carry Masterclass.

Absolutely.

So I've been doing this since about 1994. I got my first authorization to carry when I turned 18. That would be around, I don't know when that was, late nineties, mid nineties. And, uh, Every province in Canada is going to issue authorizations to transport a little bit differently. Over the years, they've worked at standardizing the process, but that said, there is no standard process for an ATC issuance.

Yes. Yeah.

And the reason I'm told, I've been told this by a couple different firearms officers, is that, uh, they have a mandate to make getting an ATC difficult. One firearms officer told me, he says, Oh, we don't want to have everybody running around willy nilly with a handgun on their hip. And I said, why not? I mean, really, what is it your concern if they are properly trained and properly licensed and they have a legitimate reason to be out there.

And jumped through the three ring circus. Cause let me tell you, it is not an easy process.

Right. And that, I mean, holy crow, that's where I'm going to really love your fresh perspective and full disclosure. I've been doing this for a long time. Uh, we've got a 100 percent success rate for every week. Applicant who's come through, these are legitimate people with legitimate reasons to have it. Um, a hundred percent success rate for anyone looking to be a trapper, looking, working in a remote wilderness area. They're working in

industries,

working as armed guards. And I didn't want. To talk about it. I didn't want to tell people about it because I was concerned that this secret sauce that we've had for a very long time would get burnt out and people would stop getting it. But in talking with you, um, I've come to the realization based in part on your, uh, your background and your assurances and your perspective as well. That we should normalize this process for everybody.

Well, I think Travis, that's, I mean, we've stalked each other through social media and I think that's where the grand conversation really came together because I almost made a plea and coming into, for people that don't know me, I've been a professional hunting guide for a decade and a half.

A thousand percent, but it begs a question. And I think I know the answer. Why didn't you apply after getting your restricted license right off the bat?

The biggest thing, I hit roadblocks. I would try and go to different gun ranges and I would be blocked. They'd be like, Oh, it's too hard. Or there's, you know, there's a test and, and no one wanted to offer the test. So I literally started going to every single range when I would travel through and I got nowhere. I, I, at the time I, I literally was a gypsy, I had a pimped out storage locker.

One thing I think I should probably make very clear it off the bat and I can't speak for you. So I'll ask you this. Have you had legal training, professional legal training, gone to school or you pass a bar test? You're, you're not a lawyer. I'm

not a lawyer. No.

I have not had professional legal training. I'm not a lawyer. So everything that you and I are talking about here is going to be from our experience. We have had legal training in certain areas, but not as. Professional lawyers, so we are not qualified to give legal advice.

Absolutely.

So I think that's an important thing to get off the, off the go. Um, and I should probably throw in the word allegedly in front of this podcast, because I'm going to make references and you might as well to things that, uh, have been relayed to you that you've heard. And so we'll just throw a big, an allegedly over the entire podcast.

These are two people that are just trying to help everyone else. And exactly. Allegedly, this is what have happened. Great. By no means, I hope it's easier for everyone else.

A hundred percent. Well, um, okay. So you brought up a couple of interesting things. You talked about, uh, traveling from British Columbia, Northwest Territories. Uh, so in the firearms act, they talk about geographical extent and your possession and acquisition license is going to have a geographical extent. Across Canada, uh, different authorizations that are issued are going to be done provincially.

Absolutely.

Just because I meet the laws doesn't mean I'll get it because I might not meet the policy. The policy isn't a law and you could argue that up and down and it might just be the personality that you're dealing with as well. It's unfortunate, but that's, that's, that's life. That's how it works.

Absolutely.

So you talked about geographical extent and there was something else that you brought up that was kind of clicked in the back of my head as you're talking and, um, um, it'll come to me as we go through, I'm sure. So,

might've been, um, where I was geographically at home, as far as like, that's it. There you go.

Okay. A hundred percent. See, I'm glad you're sharp.

I had two cups of coffee this morning. We're perking right along.

I love it. So, uh, home, you said, I didn't have a home address.

And a lot of guides don't. A lot of people don't. A lot of people don't. We're, especially in North America and Northwest, we're transient, we're chasing jobs. So that for me, I would love for you to help explain that because there's a lot of people I think that speaks to.

And there's a lot of people that don't actually have, let's say a mailing address, right? There's going to be people who live on reservations and they're going to have different. Uh, they say, well, my, my house is a fifth one down past the big, big, uh, tree or whatever it might be. And this is me talking to the firearms officers and having gone through this in the past, um, I remember there was a, a fellow, uh, passed on a long time ago, uh, he had Lou Gehrig's disease, I think ALS there.

Really?

Really. And

there's a mic drop.

Yeah. So that was kind of an interesting one that I've learned. I know that a lot of people say, well, I remember I went through this one too with the chief firearms officer and, uh, Uh, going back and forth and specifically on the fixed address, um, uh, requirement. Cause they said, no, you need it, you need it, you need it. And finally, after about, uh, close to a year later, uh, our chief firearms officer was able to come back and say, here's where we get our legal authority.

so take home from that. If you're a guide, if you're a transient, if you're a worker, you, you can actually move forward on this. A

hundred percent. You can't, you don't have to have.

That's a big thing for me that I was told because I didn't have, and like I said, Allegedly, I was told because I didn't meet certain requirements, you know, and doing due diligence, I didn't want to, you know, leave a firearm in a safe at, you know, whosoever address I was most common to go to. Right. Because I was trying to do the right thing. Right. Well, as long

as you're the one with the Control over that firearm, right? You can. With a

lock to the safe, which I had and everything else. So there you go.

And when you think about it, like my first ATC was for a number of car company I was working for. I didn't own the firearm. They all belonged to the company. I go there, I pick up the gun, load it up, holster the thing, go do my work, come back, unload it, leave it there. So there's going to be situations where people have them stored either under a business license or under their own individual license, but storage is not allowed.

Yeah, absolutely. There you go. That's a big thing for myself. That was,

that

was probably one of the biggest hindering moments, um, was I didn't know if I qualified. And, and again, I couldn't find a very staunch answer for it, a yes or a no. So it wasn't until 2020, I had the opportunity to partner with Sig Sauer right before COVID. So all of a sudden, all of my ambitions and dreams to be able to have a pistol, uh, started to come true. Unfortunately, the world shut down. I was supposed to be in transit going to Arizona for, um, six to eight months on a work permit.

Right.

So unfortunately, you know, COVID happened. Um, And then for the listeners that might not know, in Canada in 2022, it became part of legislation that we were going to have a pistol freeze or handgun freeze. And so I had been scrambling because in my head, I still thought I have to have a permanent address. I didn't belong to a gun range. I didn't, I mean, I had a horse trailer and a truck and I was working calving jobs and guiding jobs. So I let a lot of my preconceived notions.

Interesting.

So.

Yeah. And honestly, I think that's, your story isn't unique out of all the people that I've worked with, I hear it time and time again. Oh, you can't do it cause. Right. And they've got all these different reasons. You can't do it cause, or I heard my buddy and they said, it's essentially illusory.

Absolutely. So check one, you don't have to have your permanent fixed address as getting your ATC. And I think that's a big step moving forward. Had I known that years ago?

You would have had it. So the other interesting thing that people need to understand, and a firearms officer took me aside and told me this, it says, look at Travis, we've got a mandate to scrutinize ATC applicants really, really carefully and to deny as many as possible. We don't want to be issuing this. We don't want people going out. This is our mandate. This is what we've been told.

very much a work interview. In my experience, you know, uh, I was very thankful to cross paths with you because I was able to bounce ideas and, and just even certain the way that I phrase things, you know, um, People have to take this with seriousness. You are asking to carry a pistol on your hip. I mean, in the States, you can go and buy one and you have it home in half an hour. Here in Canada, we've had legislation that has been abolished in the past.

that's it. Well, and it's funny that in the States, like I talked to Brad Brooks, he owns our galley and he says, I can't believe you guys aren't afforded the ability to go hunting with a bow and have a handgun for protection against bear, right? And like in their world, this is, It's just completely out, the launch is ridiculous. Right. And in our world, it's like, Oh, a handgun. That's that's extra dangerous. It's that's extra scary.

but it's been criminalized in Canada, pistols. And, you know, restricted rifles are criminalized. I remember the first time I touched a pistol when I went to the States, it was like the forbidden fruit. And I literally, I literally sat back and I was like, you're just gonna have to pretend like I don't know what I'm doing with this. And then the people I was with, I said, run me through everything.

And you brought up a good point there too, cause you called it a weapon and gun people like, it's not a weapon, it's a firearm, right? Well, actually in Canada, if you look at the law, a weapon is what it's anything used, designed to be used, intended to be used to cause, uh, death or serious bodily, grievous bodily harm to another individual or used to intimidate or threaten those things. And I'm paraphrasing the lie.

firearm,

right? And then a firearm could also just be the frame or receiver of it. So in Canada. Guns are legally considered weapons.

Exactly.

So that, that's part of the idea and framework that we're also looking at when we go through this is if you come from the United States and you're like, I just want this thing to protect my life and laws say they're here. You're going to be treated as an individual who's looking for protection. So, let's take a look, I've got a couple, before I get into it, did you want to say anything before I?

No, I think like that's a, I think this is a really great precursor because, you know, we have to identify one, the major thing as gun owners, we have to have a registered address because years ago we had to be able to register all our firearms, you know, there's been different legislation that's moved through over the last, you However many years, however far we want to go back, everything seems to change.

No, you can own it. Yeah.

And two, obviously this has to be taken seriously because this is, you know, a life saving device. It is a tool. Um, A very handy tool at that. And I think that sets the stage as we jump into it. Beautiful. Let's find out who can carry these.

Okay. So we've got the laws, these laws, you guys could download them. You look on online, these under the regulations, circumstances in which an individual needs. And they put the word needs. So that's an important one. Restricted firearms or prohibited handguns for the purpose of section 20 of the act.

That's prohibited. Yeah.

Prohibited handgun. Yeah. So I'll read through some of the laws. I won't go through all of them, but I'll just, I think it's important that we just kind of look at the words as we go through.

Grievous bodily harm, I would imagine if someone's intending you harm, um, you're putting yourself into a situation where you are unarmed.

So the courts have generally, from what I've seen, again, not legal advice, but they've looked at grievous bodily harm as being something that's, let's say broken bones, uh, major disfigurement. So your amputations, uh, would be a form of grievous bodily harm. Someone's going to try and break your bone. They say, okay, that's, I can defend my life because we don't know where this is going to stop. Um, unconsciousness would be one of them would be considered grievous bodily harm.

um, Grievous bodily harm.

Grievous bodily harm, uh, severe cuts. So these are going to be, uh, Yeah, slashing

with harm to intent. Right.

So that's generally kind of what grievous bodily harm kind of looks at. So I think it's good that people look at the framework. The number of people who actually get an ATC issued for this are slim to none. So

what's, what, what industry would that be then?

So. What I've heard anecdotally, um, and we do work all across Canada, um, deal with different police agencies. What I've heard allegedly, this is going to be, let's say a judge is dealing with, uh, organized crime. There's a verified threat and, um, they say, well, here you go, here's something, make sure you protect yourself. Right. Uh, the times I've heard that happen, they've just given the individual. A firearm or the person had a firearm. This is sure not a problem. You can pack it.

and

there is a threat on your life.

Well, they can't be everywhere. They

can't, unless, unless they just happen to be in the store at the same time. But, uh, they came back after as they said, well, I got to hand it to you. You've come the closest to getting issued one of these that we've seen under your circumstances. Anyways, that, that was sort of my experience on that one, as well as the, all the anecdotal of, uh, judges or people that are being given one hastily because they need one and then immediately after that threat's no longer there, it's revoked.

Gotcha. So short term, temporary. Yeah,

that's it. Yeah. So there's only, if there's an imminent threat. Um, next one is where you fall in, and this is the one where we've had a hundred percent success rate with everyone that we've worked with lawful profession or occupation for the purposes of section 20 of the act, the circumstances in which an individual needs restricted firearms or prohibited handguns for use in connection with his or her lawful profession or occupation.

Oh, really? Yeah.

And that was a, considered a, uh, negotiable instrument or other goods of substantial value. I've heard of, um, I've seen them for marijuana transport, for

I mean, we are in BC. We are in BC.

Um, And for transporting of firearms, if that's where you're transporting them back and forth and they're issued one for that. So there's a whole bunch of use cases and it's pretty wide open. Basically, if an individual wants that license, uh, their principal activity. That they're going to say is handling, transporting, or protecting of cash, negotiable instruments, or other goods of substantial value.

It's to protect the person.

That's it. It's only there to protect life. Someone says, give me all your money or I'm going to kill you. Here's the money.

Yep.

There it is. It's easy, right?

Absolutely. It's,

Then they would want to take that next step and they're going to put your life in the threat of death or grievous bodily harm. That's when you start getting into the justifiable use of that firearm and the use case for that firearm. That goes into a whole different discussion on use of force and probably goes. And probably

negotiations and everything else. But I think that's a very important way of actually depicting that is that in that situation, you're They're going to try not to use the firearm. You're going to use justifiable cause to say, you know what? Here's what, here's a token you're after, take it.

Yes.

I think that's the biggest thing is that you, just because you have your permit and your pistol doesn't mean you necessarily always want to use it. You don't want to be flying off the handle. So that's where it comes into the rationale and the mindset behind it. I think it's hugely important when people are taking into this as consideration.

What do they say, if you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail, right?

I, I mean, I haven't heard that one in a while, but that, I think that just definitely falls in suit.

Right. Oh, I got my gun. There you go. Now, where do I use it? Here I go.

Start looking like Yosemite Sam.

That's right. So, uh, It's interesting, that mindset, because like in the States, um, they've got, uh. Shoot

first, ask questions later.

Well, in some States, right? They, but, but they also have, um, what, why is it slipping me right now? I've got one. It's, um, uh, your carry permit, your, um, CCW, concealed carry. And, right. And, and some are going to be non concealed. Some States, they have to have them concealed. Like in Washington, if you break concealment, you're having a problem. But. You know, they get people young, macho, got my CCW and the, I'm going to be the hero. I can jump in. I can help the cops out now. Right.

You protect yourself. You

have that to protect yourself. And there's, that's what you're saying. A very, uh, good point for people to understand. And when you're training people, you can train people to the point that they're just rabid dogs and they're ready to pull the trigger on anything that moves or, uh, That they're so intimidated based on the laws that they just, they don't draw the firearm in situations where they should.

Absolutely.

Okay. Um, here we go. Now we're getting right into the territory you're going to be comfortable in too. The individual is working in a remote wilderness area and firearms are required for the protection of the life of that individual or other individuals from wild animals. Or, the individual is engaged in the occupation of trapping in a province and is licensed or authorized and trained as required by the laws of that province. You're both of those.

I am.

You're one of those unique people that have both of them.

Both, absolutely. And let me tell you, my God, did it feel good when I had both permits come to my door.

How long did it take? That was one of the Instagram questions. How long did that take you?

Four years. Four

years.

But I had a little bit of special circumstance because obviously I had to get pistols. We had a handgun freeze. I, my preconceived notion that I couldn't have it unless I had a permanent address. I kind of did the classic textbook, tried to be good, but realized in being so good that I actually was hindering myself.

So

from the time that I actually got the pistols here in Canada, it's been from my submission date for my application. I hate to say it, but it was actually pretty quick. And thanks to Travis here, I actually was able to get through it because I, I had to learn a lot of why I was going after it. Not, not only because, you know, obviously I wanted it for personal protection, but trying to help illuminate that for the greater audience.

Once we started working together, how, how long was it?

So I submitted my application in December.

Okay.

Um, that's a two part answer as well, because I didn't have the right information and I know we talked about that. So from, I submitted it in December, I didn't mail it in. I electronically sent it, that was the ticket because I also was coming into my first trapping season. So December, I officially got my paperwork, uh, the beginning of May. So, you know, six months, six, seven months.

Mm hmm.

You actually, I was told that this permit was at a standstill because I didn't have the rest of it.

It's, and it's going to take a person going through these things to think very carefully as they fill it out and to read things carefully and to question. Um, so that it's clear in their mind, if they're dealing with a firearms officer or a civil servant, and they say, well, you need this first, or you need that first. Yeah. And just say, okay, not a problem. Right.

Exactly. I

have no problem complying with whatever the requirements or policy are.

Yep.

But can you give that to me in writing? So I make sure that I've got some sort of paper trail.

Absolutely. I'm just trying to reference it here, but yes, there was, that was, I think the biggest hangup for myself. Here it is. What is this form here? The form that in question is the 5491E. So that is the authorization, the application for the authorization to carry restricted firearms and prohibited handguns. So I was in a bit of a special scenario. Because I'm very excited and honored to work with SIG Sauer.

ATC,

you know, yes, online, you can do your, um, your online portal. You go through and you have your authorization to carry or transport. Sorry. So to go to, and from your gun range, you have to call it in, submit it that way when you have restricted. My problem was, is that the, they weren't registered to me. So I ran into hiccups. I, I was able to work under a business license because I am an ambassador for a mutual company.

And I think one of the difficult parts that you had was he had a firearms officer who was More than happy to help out, but you know, they've got a job, they go in every day. They're not going to lay their job out on the line to do you with some sort of special favor. They want to make sure their I's are dotted and their T's are crossed. And it's a lot of times when people are applying, particularly for an authorization to carry, this is new ground for a firearms officer. Absolutely.

So I think like stepping back to, if I were, or sorry, so when we talk about timeline, it was November where I actually submitted that, uh, 5491E.

Mm hmm.

I heard crickets. So I finally, I started calling the CFO of British Columbia and I said, look, this is the program I've submitted to. They said, well, I'm You know, have you actually done your proof of proficiency?

And I

was like, well, no, because it looks like I have to submit this application before I jumped through this hoop. And I think that was right around the time in November that we started communicating back and forth. And you're like, well, I think you can go ahead and do this. I know you can. So that's where in my timeline, because I didn't, I didn't have a rule book saying X, Y, Z, this is how you get to the formula and say your alphabet. And once I had submitted that.

not

heated on my behalf, but I was scared witless because I thought I was in app, I thought I was in contention and here I had been traveling to and from under a business license. I had pictures of it and I, I had measured it.

But when

I was caught off guard away from my pistol, driving to Prince George, you know, they're saying, you, you have a firearm, like hell's bells and whistles are coming down.

And

I remember calling you in tears and I was like, I, I I'm screwed. I'm never going to get it.

I remember trying to talk you off that ledge.

There was a ledge and I was hanging on by a branch.

And I said, they're wrong. They're wrong. Right.

You did.

Uh, You have nothing to worry about. Make sure you cover your butt with paper, essentially. Um, but it's prohibited. Right. But you're under a business license and a business license is licensed for prohibited and you're properly listed in the same way that I carried a prohibited firearm for a few years there working for an armored car company. Yep. You were doing the exact same thing. And then we dug a little bit deeper and said,

can you

get the tape measure out? Can we see if this guy's actually prohibited or not? And it's interesting because, uh, sometimes I can see in myself, I'll have a bit of an oppositional approach when dealing with, um, a firearms officer who I, in my mind, or any sort of person who's in a regulatory position. And in my mind, I'm like, they don't know what they're talking about, right? They're wrong. Right. Yeah. And there's, it always comes back to my head. There's a, um, old poem called the stop sign.

Absolutely.

That's their job.

And I think that was a very big turning point for me, because obviously I said, you know, sir, with all due respect, I don't believe I do, but let me, I'm on the road right now. Let me get home. And how can I contact you? Because obviously I want to make this right.

And we'll talk about that a bit as we go through too. And I think, um, so go way back on how long does it take? So we have an idea of what it takes for you for getting the, uh, uh, the permit. The fastest I've seen it is under 24 hours.

Wow. I was not 24 hours.

Right. So that's the fastest. And, uh, every time you, uh, apply for your ATC, it's the exact same process when you reapply. However, when you reapply, it's easier for the human to look at this and say, well, they've been approved before. They met all the same criteria as they did the first time. Here we go. Right. And less things that change on our end, I am now obliged to give them that, uh, that approval.

And it shows your level of professionalism as well. And I think that was one of the biggest parts, um, like where I kind of took matters into my own hands and sent that email saying, you know, I had a good tagline upcoming trapping season, you know, urgent request. And it was, um, it was very imminent. I am out here by myself. Uh, and then. Obviously I was able to start a feed of conversation because like you said, everything had a trail. I could back it up.

I don't understand.

Exactly. And, and that was something that I think moving forward on all of the extra training I've done through my other industry programs. You know, it helps. Oh my gosh, it helps.

I like that. I don't understand because quite often people will say, nope, this is how it's done. You got to do this.

I

don't understand. Well, let me explain it to you. Oh, hold on a second. Yeah. I don't understand either. I see where you're going, right? Because in the same process, people will think, well, this is how it's always been done. Here's how we do it moving forward. Maybe not. Right. And just like when I queried our chief firearms officer, he A hundred percent. You got to do it like this. I don't know. I don't understand. Can you show me? Right. Took a year.

Yeah, absolutely. So I think that's the biggest thing, you know, when you, Is understanding, you know, there is a process to it if whatever industry you find yourself in, whether you're trapping forestry, you know, some of the other remote sectors, if you're, there's bear monitors out there, they, they use shotguns and slugs, but, you know, for personal protection.

Um, who

knows, uh, the opportunities might be endless as guides, you know, remote ranching. Um, the biggest thing that I wish I would have known, what process and what applications go first, how can a person, what is the formula

for

success? I mean, obviously, and like you say, it comes, success can be measured in a very different ways and it does come down to the civil servant that you're working for. And it also comes down to how you answer the questions and that's where it leads into, you know, If you're, if you're getting set up for this, do I meet the requirements? You know, one, do I have a pistol I can train with or one that's my own, or perhaps I can get access to, two, what's my next step?

Well, why don't we take a look at it here? We've got, we've got two different forms here. And one is a form called a chief firearms officer of British Columbia and Yukon proof of firearms proficiency for trapping. The other one is all the same, but it says proof of proficiency for the protection of life in remote wilderness areas. Now, this is British Columbia, but they have been trying to standardize it. And if one province does it, it's easy for another province to say.

Oh, you know what I let's, let's start with trapping because I think wilderness appeals to a lot of people, but trapping is, is a, is a There's a kind of a relic to it. It's not something that's done or practiced in a lot of traditional, I mean, my own nephews were like, Andy, trapping died in the 1800s with the fur trade. And I was kind of like, well, boys.

We're bringing it

back. We're bringing

it back. So. These are very similar in approach. So we'll go through trapping first and we'll just put the differences once we go into the, uh, protection of life. So

should we preface this? This is what you should be doing if you're going after the trapping. We've already assessed that you want to be able to shoot, so you should probably have access to a gun that you're going to prove proficient on the appropriate calibers. And the next is, you know, Um, you've met the requirements cause you are, you have your trapper's license, especially for trapping. You have to have your trapper's license.

That can help. Yes. That

can help. Also private property, permission on your own, elsewhere. So those are the major things you have to show that you are actively engaged with the opportunity to participate as a trapper professionally.

Yes. And I think the key word in all of that is working.

Yes.

Because that's one that kept coming up when I deal with the Firearms Program. Cause I said, well, what about working on your cabin? I'm working on a new roof. I'm working on the fence. Right. Which is

all things to get ready for the season. You, as a trapper, it is a year round activity.

Right. So as long as that's. Applies to a occupation, lawful profession or occupation. That doesn't mean it's your full time occupation. That doesn't even mean it has to be like half the time occupation.

But it's your occupation.

But it's an occupation. So that's something that's going to hopefully at some day, Bring money in, maybe not, maybe it costs you a bunch of money. There's a lot of occupations like that. Right? So there's a few. Right. Um, it says a proof of proficiency, and this is going to be a qualification course, a shooting course, uh, must be administered by an individual who holds a valid possession and acquisition license, PAL, for restricted firearms at the time of the administration.

That's everybody.

Right? Absolutely. I'm a range officer.

Well, that's what people don't understand. You and I both go to the range. One of us has to be the range officer. That's right. So

if they don't have a designated one. Exactly. If they don't

have a designated one on staff. Now there is a point in there where it does say you do have to have your restricted license.

Right.

So that is a key component because when you hand in your submission, they will look up that individual and their firearms license, and if they don't, they will deny you.

One thing I should point out and who knows. Or could deny

you, I should preface, could deny you.

Yeah, I think we should use. Allegedly. Allegedly. We should use that language, could, because right now what we're reading off of is a document that was created by a firearms officer, probably working and trying to put everything together in a more systemized way. This isn't, I have gone contrary to everything on this document at one point or another, because there are special use cases, uh, that, that need to be looked at.

One of the things I will note though, um, and this is on the front page for the actual authorization to carry questionnaire. Um, sorry, do you want to pause? So one of the big things too, is that when you're looking at your different, whether you, obviously you have to be a trapper for the trappers ATC or the wilderness carry.

Right.

If you wish to request authorization to carry a restricted firearm or prohibited handgun for the purpose of protecting your life from predatory animals while working in remote wilderness areas, you must request a package for the remote wilderness areas.

Beautiful. I'm glad you brought that up.

So. That's one of the things that people have to be very cognizant of, because when you look at that, it's a smaller caliber as poor, you know, this application. Right. You can challenge it, but predominantly, I mean, as a trapper, you want to shoot a smaller caliber with your intended catch. How many times as a trapper have I learned your intending catch might not always be What you had hoped for.

Yeah. We were talking about that right before we accessed the core. So anyways,

I just wanted to preface that because I think there's a lot that goes into that, um, because they are two very different applications.

So. I like that. Uh, under firearms, this is a firearm used during the proof of proficiency and we're going to call it a POP because they call it a POP and it's easier than me saying that over and over again, must be the same firearm the applicant intends to use for dispatching animals and traps. Okay. That makes sense. If you're going to qualify, qualify in the gun you're going to use. It makes a lot of sense. Is that always the way that is done when they issue ATCs?

And I'm going to give you a hot tip for all the listeners listening, right now, especially here in Canada, once you prove qualified for your ATC, you have the ability to purchase two firearms. That was shared with me by a CFO, allegedly.

Allegedly.

So I, like, I don't know, but that's like, and this is just in conversation, whether you want to add it or not. Um, that was something that was shared to me by a CFO, because it's Legally, if you go through, say you're, say you have a make and model that you are going to be proving proficient on that, you know, we're at the gun range, um, and shooting, that's where there's such a gray area is that for people that don't have pistols right now, that's the biggest question I've had.

Right.

So what I'm trying to find out and what I've, my biggest request is how can those people train on a pistol?

So Canada can't just deny you the ability to protect your life. Well, let's, let's look at how I, how I framed that one, allegedly, allegedly. Right. Um, if you need to protect your life and there is a legal method for you to do so. Mm hmm. They can't turn around and make that whole process illusory, because something happens to you and you've gone through this whole process and let's say you're mauled by a bear and you could have perfect protected yourself and defended yourself.

Yeah. So I, and I think that's something that people should know is just because they don't have a pistol right now, doesn't mean that you can't. Prove proficient, pass the course, and then pursue an avenue to try and acquire the appropriate firearm. That's right.

Um, an applicant can only apply for a maximum of two firearms to be listed on their authorization to carry ATC in a period of POP must be completed for each firearm. So they put that into there. They say two guns, really, when you get your, uh, authorization to carry, uh, they could put whatever they want in the conditions. Go on. Yeah.

So that's, well, the other thing too, is that you have, you can apply for the two guns, but you are only lawfully allowed to carry one at a time. That is a major thing. You can get props, proof of proficiency for two, but at any one time while performing your duty, you are only holstered with one firearm.

That's right. That's yes. And I always have a difficult time when they say you can only, You can always, cause I've seen so many exceptions to the rule and when a chief arms officer can put in, uh, conditions that tighten it down, they can also put conditions that'll make it wider, make the usage case wider. So just cause we see it written here, doesn't necessarily mean that this is the way that's done, but we'll go through, this is the happy path.

This is the happy path. Absolutely.

Um, the maximum caliber accepted for dispatching or trapping animals is 22 caliber rimfire, unless special dispensation is sought from the office of the chief firearms officer.

Hello. Hello. So given the fact that obviously I acquired these two pistols on the nine millimeter and the 10 millimeter, and there's a handgun freeze, I couldn't go and purchase. A 22 caliber. Now there have been instances, there was a bear attack in Alaska where an officer was able to dispatch a black bear with a nine millimeter. It is a lethal killing caliber for protection of life. It is also a small enough caliber that it can be used to dispatch intended catch.

And they said, not a problem. That's right.

Because I was able to give a cognizant, thoughtful answer.

Interesting. Recent one, I've just read about a grizzly bear taken down with an eye millimeter as well. You know, modern advances in ammunition and bullet construction have come a long way. Absolutely. And the whole idea. Of the ballistics behind these, uh, rounds. This one's a, this one's a bear stopper. This one isn't, this one's a that, right? Shot placement is obviously important.

Absolutely.

But we'll talk about that a little bit more in the other one about calibers and energy and, and the rest, but, um.

Well, and to me, to be honest, one of the big things that I brought home is that, you know, if I'm only allowed to carry one caliber. Where I'm out here working remotely on a snow machine, and I've got my traps and I have my bucket of my lures and everything else. If I have an intended catch and it's an animal of, you know, predatory, there could be wolves, there could be anything moving in.

No, absolutely not. No. And you are, you're the prime candidate for wolf food or bear food. You're covered in scent. Oh, you've got catch with you.

You want to see me walk on snowshoes? It is not a fast or a pretty thing, neither. I would be, I'm wolf bait, man.

A hundred percent. Um, Holsters, holsters must be designed to be worn on a belt around the waist. So they're saying no shoulder holsters, cross drawn, um, actually it doesn't say nothing about cross draw.

When you talk to them, they say no cross draws, even though some of the CFOs I've talked to, it is a proficient way of carrying. Um, their biggest thing is that when you go to draw, there's an opportunity where you, your barrel control. Right. When you're out there with all your

other friends trapping, right?

Yeah, exactly. All my other friends.

So, um, Yeah, the, you in the crowded areas with the, a lot of the thinking behind this falls back on police training. Yes. And police training doesn't apply here, but it's a framework that was put in place a long time ago. And the firearms officers may be either ex police, current police, or exposed to police, and there's a proclivity towards wanting to, uh, be drawn to what you know. We do what we've done in the past.

The other thing too, is when they talk about a holster is it has to have a level of retention.

Right. So we're going to just go a little further and say outside of the clothing and have at least one strap with a snap closure that retains a firearm securely in the holster. You don't want a bucket holster. You don't want something that plops in and then you're on your snowmobile and you need to use your firearm and you look back and where is the thing, right? They, they need some level of retention.

It actually doesn't say snap retention when you look online.

Right.

So that's one thing, cause I, in, in my holster quest, and this is, you know, side note for everyone that's interested, you have to make sure one that, not all holsters are the same. That's one thing I've learned. It's a very new shopping experience. Um, but your level of retention, basically what they're looking for is it has to, the rifle or the firearm itself can't easily slide in and out. You have to forcibly pull and it has to make sure that the trigger guard Is in fact fully encompassing.

So it says the holster must be designed to completely cover the trigger. A holster and holster retention device should be used during the proof of proficiency. Oh, there it is. Shoulder and cross draw holsters are not permitted. Well, again, this is a policy. This is a piece of paperwork. So. Uh, there are going to be instances where maybe you want that. For me personally, I don't want a pancake holster, meaning one that flattens out. I want one that's going to hold its shape.

You cold, wet, heat, anything like that. You have to think of a wet leather, you know, you're trying to ramrod a firearm in and out. I've had scabbards that freeze up on me with my long rifles. Right. So that's something to be very cognizant of, you know, when choosing the appropriate holster.

So, and then some form of retention, something to hold it in place. Um, What I tend to go for, um, is something, I'm not a big fan of the, uh, the thigh holsters, the, uh, the drop leg holsters, right? I just find hiking around, running, the thing just starts working its way around. Really, the only reason you want that is so you can get a backpack on or a repel harness or something that will go where your belt line is. So what I do.

Uh, we just touched on it. So that's the biggest thing is that you have to make sure that that firearm is exposed the entire time. So that's, when you think about big puffy winter jackets and snow pants, I mean, you almost have to have another belt loop outside.

Well, that's an interesting one. So a law firm called me in to opine on an issue where an individual had a trap line and he was charged with having a concealed firearm. So I guess somebody saw him out there with his handgun. Uh, they called the police, called the CO, CO's called the police, please come up. The guy's like, well, you got a gun? He's like, oh yeah, it's right here, right? And he's, he's motioning and they looking through his vehicle. They can't find it. And I don't see it.

have it when I'm carrying my Martin boxes, am I concealing? These are all things you have to be cognizant of. Obviously, I mean, unless you're going to run into CO on the trail, it's like the first thing you do anyways, just say, Hey, this is who I am. I just need you to know, I'm I have my ATC, it has, it's holstered on my hip. I look like a gorilla, like, you know what I mean? So, but then again, it comes back to that communication, like you said.

That's right. They don't want to see that. Yeah. Falaka was an interesting one. I think he got on a SkyTrain and a bus, so he had a 22 all wrapped up and, uh, came coming back from the range and someone was like, Oh, that's cool. What do you got there? He's like, Oh, I'm going to go on a shooting spree, he says. And the judge says, well, that was a pretty immature statement to make.

No, I think just the biggest thing is just, you know, it's one of those things that you're going to do your best in the field and actively I'm always checking my holster, you know? And I think that's one thing like, cause it will come up in conversation when you go through this process, what happens if, you know, your jacket falls down? Well, I'm going to immediately try and, you know, make sure that I'm wearing the right clothing.

You

are doing the best of your intentions. You are trying to make your weapon present. You're having the right holster that fits your body type. It fits your activity, branches happen, carrying things happen. Just learn how to communicate, I think is my biggest thing as we move through this application.

Yeah. Uh, it's, there, there's a dichotomy between communicating. With a rational, normal individual in a rational way. Yes. And there's severe protectionism, right? Which can find you on the wrong side of, uh, an interaction because you're doing everything right. And you're being so protective and you just come across as like, what's this person's problem. Right. And then the other side says you're having a normal conversation.

Yep.

You're close. You're dispatching an animal. They just want to read your head. You do

have to have it within a certain, um, diameter as well. Um, so that is something to, to really think. So the radius. And the special notes, just to follow up on that, um, the radius draw on the paper target has to be two inches. So they are looking for competency and that's why obviously you can't have a metal target because when you're standing three meters away, bullet fragments.

And having, uh, steel targets, like, like you say, at that distance. Fragmentation, ricochets, hopefully not ricochets, hopefully you're using a hard enough steel and all the rest, but all of that comes, they do have guidelines that the firearms program has made for that. Easy to, uh, fall on. Tintina gun range, they were in the Yukon. I was called in by another law firm to opine on that one with a steel target, a ricochet that happened on that one.

Absolutely.

Uh, The applicant must achieve 10 hits for every 12 rounds fired. So that's about an 83 percent success rate that they're looking for from the applicant. Now, you know, back in the day, they didn't have this. They didn't have this proficiency. They had, Oh, you got to use pie plates. Or they had, they had all these different ideas and little by little, they're kind of honing it down and getting it finer, but it's still. Policy.

And let me tell you, if you haven't shot in a while, you get rusty. And I think this is something that a lot of people are like, oh yeah, you go and shoot. It's like, no.

No, it's a perishable skill. Exactly. It is

a perishable skill. And a lot of it too, comes down to your range behaviors and mannerisms, which I'm sure we're about to dive into here. Tell me. Cause it's not so much just shooting, you know, you are under a timed amount, um, which I believe it is 20 seconds.

For this one? Uh, did they give you a time to mount on this one?

I believe so.

Uh, doesn't have it in their paperwork. Okay.

Um, I believe I'd seen something, I don't want to misquote myself, but it was, you know, when you, when you approach the target, um, obviously you're holstered. And that was one thing it's like hands in the air from a casual position, unholstered, showing that you have good trigger control or good, sorry, pistol control. And obviously you're proving proficient. Once you're done, you're, you're Holster again.

Muscle control, trigger, finger discipline. That's the thing that the instructors will keep saying. You don't have your finger on the trigger until your barrel and your gun is pointed at the target, right? Doesn't mean like I don't have my finger on the trigger until I'm ready here. I can shoot. Right. Cause you can shoot at any point all the way up.

Yes.

Depending on the individual, but it's got to be. Exactly,

exactly.

Um.

You do get three attempts at it.

Yeah, which is crazy. Isn't it?

It is pretty crazy. It's very expensive on ammunition.

But here's, so here's an interesting one. They don't cover it in here. Uh, so you said 20 seconds, which by the way, it is, uh, a lot of time. I maybe like, this is the form. I think this is the newest one. Cause this is the one that they, that they Uh, they provided you, I've seen different iterations of this one.

And

if you get three kicks in the can, maybe that's two practice rounds in one test, right?

Yes, exactly. And I think that's one thing is that at the end of the day, they're basically trying to, You're just trying to prove that you have good manners, safe manners, when it comes to handling a firearm, obviously, especially with a pistol, um, and the biggest thing I found too is that when I did my test and, and this is something that I learned from the SIG Academy is always communicate, you know, when I'm shooting with someone, it's like, okay, you know what? I'm going to holster.

I agree. I like that. It says, um, if the applicant fails to achieve the minimum pass mark, the applicant must be retested for the failed shooting distance. So that doesn't say you've got to redo the entire course of fire. You just redo that one part that they failed on. Absolutely. An applicant can only attempt a maximum of two retests for each shooting distance.

You want to show up to the range with it, obviously locked in an opaque case and you want to have your trigger lock. And I think it's really good husbandry, especially if you're testing with someone you don't know.

You know,

like, or anyone, it just, to me, it gives them a safeguard of, look, I'm showing up. It's like showing up to a test with a chiseled pen and a good piece of paper. You're ready for the test. You've studied.

Uh, firearm holstered safely and prepared for pop, pass or fail. Holstering and unholstering a firearm is an art form. It takes some practice. There's some skill to it. There's YouTube videos, or even like yourself, Seiko professional instruction. Drawing. From the holster and firing smoothly. There's that skill. Ask about the target type, whether it's silhouette, bullseye or other, they can put their other in.

Yep.

Okay. Obviously it's an offense under section 106 of the firearms act to knowingly make false or misleading statements, either orally or in writing. So you put a date and sign that, and then the CFO will take a look and they'll say pass or fail on there.

Yep, absolutely.

Anything I missed on there?

No, and to be honest, like when you go through, um, the authorization questionnaire, Really use common sense. I mean, obviously, we just covered, you know, the shooting positions. You're doing it from a standing as well. Um, for the trapping, it's all standing.

This is probably one of the areas where you and I, and most people, we spend the most amount of time going through because there's a delicate balance. And part of that is knowing the individual that you're dealing with. What they're looking for, what their objectives are, where they're coming from.

Yes, absolutely. And in a lot of the people that have reached out and said, you know, I've done the test. I shot very well. I have good trigger control. I had good holstering control, you know, I don't understand why I was denied. And I think a lot of it, like you said, comes down to the questions and how they answered them.

Right.

You know, and it's up to the discretion of that civil servant to have a followup conversation.

I would advise people to give, to answer just the question and don't expand on it. If they want expansion on that question, you can always expand afterwards. But answer that question as clearly and concisely as possible, knowing full well that maybe you just got somebody who's having a bad day. Maybe you got somebody who's saying, oh, I'm going to look for reasons not to issue this one. In which case, the more information you provide, The more reasons the issuing body will have to deny it.

Absolutely.

In my case, I remember on one of them going through, uh, Um, and I was getting a wilderness carry for free mining and I do that all throughout British Columbia. And the firearms officer came running out one time when I was picking up stuff for work. And he's like, Oh, I just wanted to talk to you about a couple of things and just casually throwing a few questions out.

So I put down the trap line that I was leasing. Um, and the corresponding geographical areas, I actually, I ended up having a follow up conversation with,

um,

because I had said, you know, I'll be trapping in British Columbia and that was too big. But in a follow up conversation that I had with a CFO, I said, this is the registered trap line that I am leasing. You know, I also have permission and that's what trapping has is you have the permission, written permission from the areas so that you are actually legally lawfully allowed to carry because you're still in the act of trapping. That's that's one of the gray areas.

right?

You have to put that. Otherwise, if you just put down trap line, such and such and such in the special comment side of your permit, it will say only authorized to carry on such and such place.

Right. And this is all a process of. Limiting yourself and why would you limit yourself when your license allows you to work throughout remote wilderness areas, on private property, throughout BC, on other traplines, assisting other people, like your license allows for this. Why would you limit yourself? Anybody listening to say, well, I've only got this one right now, so that's the only area I can have it.

Absolutely.

Uh, explain why you feel you need to use a handgun, a restricted rifle to dispatch trapped animals rather than

any

other tool available.

And the basic thing is, is it comes down to it's a lawful and it's an compact tool and it's effective for dispatching. A

hundred percent. It's effective.

Plus. The big thing is it's compact.

It's the easiest one to carry.

Exactly. It's on your holster. It's on your hip.

Right. And if you have bycatch that you weren't expecting. Just because you're catching one thing doesn't necessarily necessarily mean that's the thing you're going to get.

Well, and most time when you're walking in on a set, I mean, you're carrying tools, hoping that you caught your intended catch because they're not right off the snow machine. So, I mean, you're going in and your hands are already encumbered.

Um,

you know, or you're having to crawl into a place to set, to, to check a set. So, you know, the biggest thing is that you, it is on your person without having to physically hold it in your hands.

Right. Uh, please provide the dates you plan to be harvesting the trap lines listed above. You said.

I honestly said I will be harvesting in accordance with the law, um, and seasons within the trapping seasons, um, and subject to based on the regulations. Um, and the options for trapping outside the season for nuisance animals. Yes. So the act of trapping is a year round activity. As a licensed trapper, I can be contracted.

And I think mine was a little more vague. I think I said, uh, The dates every day, right? And I just let, so better answer. Yes, but I, uh, when systemizing things a long time ago, I took things real, real small. Uh, and then that requires followup conversations and we'll talk about what that would look like afterwards. But, uh, Why would I find myself illegal if I say, Oh, I'm going to be working Monday through Friday.

setting yourself up for failure, right? You're already going through such a process. You need to set yourself up for legal success. That's what it is.

Explain how you would safely and securely transport your firearm to the location on your trapline. I think you've made it sound nicer than what I said.

You go ahead with your answer, Travis.

Mine was in accordance with the laws.

So I did it in accordance with the law with restricted firearm on my followup interview. They want to know, and this, and they did come through. They said, you know, there are a bunch of questions that we have to go through. I, you say, you know, in accordance with the law, I need to know that you understand it. So the CFO I worked with, he just basically said, please explain to me what that is.

And essentially you just said, in accordance with the laws, but you articulated that you know what those laws are.

Exactly. And they will ask you that. So you cannot, you can say in accordance with the law, but you better know the answer when you do a follow up phone call. A hundred percent.

And I think anyone with a firearm should know that one. They, they should, but I tell you,

you know, what was funny is that that's where they say a lot of people fail is when they do the follow up phone call. If people do a small answer, they're But then they can't come back and actually articulate what the law is, obviously it's an automatic fail.

But my question would be why? Why would that make it an automatic fail?

If people don't understand where the law is and they're applying for a transportation, I can see from an officer's standpoint, if you say, if I say, Travis, you know, do you know what it means to travel? And you say, yep. And it's like, okay, well then what is it?

And see, but you're attacking, you're looking that from a very logical point of The way that I look at it is, okay, as a regulatory body, if the person doesn't know how to transport it, why don't we just put that, you know, on their conditions, making sure that we know, let's have a conversation, you Perfect. How do you do it? Oh, I'll, I'll, I'll just have it, um, unloaded. No, no, you need to have it in an opaque locked box. Box cannot be easily broken into.

You've

got to deny everybody.

Absolutely.

Um, same thing goes for how would you safely carry the firearm

while you're

working on your trapline?

Yeah. You're wearing it on your safety. Oh, you're wearing it, sorry, on an approved holster that meets the requirements with retention.

Yeah. And that's what my answer is.

Yeah.

Um,

They will try and catch you up and say, oh, so is that a cross draw? It's like, no, it's on your hip. So, you know, it depends on who your interviewer is.

There's nothing in the law that says you can't use a cross draw and you can have a cross draw on your hip too.

I think it just said that in the part of the form.

Form, not law.

Oh, there

you go. Right? Not legislation, not regulation. There you go. But definitely did say it in the form. Allegedly. Allegedly. Explain how you could safely and securely store the handgun while not carrying it on your trapline.

All right. So I actually went with an answer that I think covered all bases, which was my handgun was stored within the outline requirements as set out by the federal law for restricted firearms here in Canada.

Beautiful. And did he say, Oh, what are those?

Absolutely. And then you

explained.

And then I explained to him. So.

Okay. And then there's an offense if you give any bad information. So that, that is that one.

Yes.

So there's that written questionnaire and then there's the followup kind of verbal questionnaire that may or may not happen. And it's my experience. It always happens.

Absolutely.

Uh, way years ago, didn't now always happens. And I remember a, um, firearms officer, Travis, I want to, I want to have a verbal conversation with you. All right. And when can you come in? We've got to go through this. I'm like, well, I'm trying so hard to document everything. Just give me your questions in an email. I'll respond to it. Then I've got this paper trail. And I told him that I said, look at. Each and every time I apply, it's going to be like a new application. Yeah, I get that.

No, I think, no, and I think that's one of the things that, you know, at the end of the day, when you're going through this process, I mean, there's no smoke and mirrors, you are either going to get approved or you're not, and so much of it will come down to obviously in preparedness. So wrapping up this ATC for the, for the trapping side, I mean, you've got your 5491E or whatever the form was. How would you submit that?

Yeah, 5491E.

5491E. So there's those three different parts that you have to send in. Would you, would you encourage people to send them all in at once?

I would. Uh, issue is getting those questions. Uh, the 5491E is available online. You can grab that, download it, put it through, but the questionnaire sheet, usually what happens is they do this first.

Yes.

Then they get the whole questionnaire sheet and everything else.

That's how it happened for me.

For everyone, because they don't make this publicly available. All those questions that we just said, now you know them. Right. Yeah. Uh, those distances you have to shoot the requirements, uh, those I think, and we can look for it. I think, uh, some versions of the, uh, the form had it. This one doesn't. I was looking now, the new one doesn't.

Yeah, and that was the biggest thing is that until I actually got the form. I had done some research, so I had a pretty rough idea of what distances I had to shoot and what proficiency I had to, you know, obviously maintain. That was the hardest part is that until you submit your 5491E, you don't get your questionnaire. Right. And you don't get the distances. So

in

essence, I didn't do it wrong. I did, I did send him a 5491E. I finally got a response back. They said, Oh, you haven't done your application. It's like, where's the application? I would love to attain this so that way I can move forward on the process. It just

to be crystal clear, this is the happy path because they know this.

Yeah.

There are other proof of proficiencies that you can do. This isn't the only proof of proficiency, right? And there's a whole different, there's a lot of different schools of thoughts on a proof of proficiency and how that works. Training at the speed of life is a neat book. If people want to learn about RBS reality based training systems, RBT, whatever that is, uh, some.

Yep, absolutely.

Uh, protection of life in remote wilderness areas. So this is a one where I think more people

will

be doing again, same information about the administration. It's someone who's got a PAL. Four restricted firearms at the time of the administration, who is a range safety officer or a member of the approved shooting range executive, or is an instructor for a recognized firearms course or discipline. Like, what is that? What's a recognized firearms course or discipline, right? By what country and what, I think it's wide open, like you said before, everyone's a range officer.

Oh, absolutely. I don't know if anyone's ever come between a cow and calf moose or had them, you know, Have had a foul catch and you know, you, obviously you do your best to not catch them.

Yes.

But accidents happen and there's a reason they chase off grizzly bears. Let me tell you, you do not want to get in a boxing match.

No. Uh, obviously the heavier rounds. The faster the projectile goes, the bigger the projectile is. You start stacking things in your favor. If you have a poor shot placement, right? Things are going to The

inertia, the bullet inertia and how it's actually impacting and Right. There's a lot to it.

So things will die if you interrupt their central nervous system. That's your incent off switch. Or if you interrupt their cardiovascular system, stopping the oxygen going to the body. Brain introducing hypovolemic shock through massive cardiopulmonary decompression. Right. And there's, there's two ways that we do the first one, central nervous system is going to be brain spinal cord shot placement. Right. Number two could be lots of holes in it. Right. So.

Very platonic term. Yes. Lots of holes.

Lots, lots of holes, right. Causing it to bleed out more and more. Hopefully those holes are in good places. Lungs, heart, vital areas, all the rest. But when we start looking at, uh, the firearm being issued, it used to be, you have to use a revolver and it has to be 357 at least. And I said, there's a case for a handgun, a, uh, semi automatic because more rounds means more holes. Um, maybe you're in a high stress situation and you're trying to dump as many as you can quickly.

That's correct.

But it's a happy path. Ammo type of ammo used during the pop has to have similar muzzle velocity, caliber, and bullet weight as the ammunition they intend to use. Fair enough. At least they're not saying the same ammunition anymore. Uh, holsters, all the same sort of information covers a trigger, uh, has a whole holster retention device must be used during the pop. What they mean by that is. When you put the firearm back in the holster, you apply the retention device.

just have it sitting on top. Yeah. And yeah. So you

gotta, you gotta actually use it. Shoulder and cross draw holsters are not permitted, it says. Again, steel targets are not permitted. Uh, the assessment now we're looking at, uh, applicant must shoot in both standing and kneeling positions for each distance five, 10, and 15 meters. And now we've got a timeframe on it.

Yes.

For each firing position at each distance, the applicant must discharge six rounds to the Unsupported within 20 seconds in one continuous motion. Six rounds in 20 seconds is a world of time. So for people who are concerned quite often, it's like, what are they for five, six? And then you're looking at the watch as it's counting down, like you count down 20 seconds, start learning how to use that time and make sure you're good sight picture. Proper trigger press.

Nice squeeze. Yeah, exactly. Follow through. World of a difference. Absolutely. Good grip. You're not pulling, you're not flinching. And we will say too, you're not shooting at a steel target. It does still give you like, whether it's a silhouette or a bullseye or other, but it does have to be within a nine inch diameter. Right. So obviously because you're going from those different standards of your five, 10 and 15, obviously you have a wider diameter. But I mean, you're still, you're moving.

I like that. And it also makes sure that if the examiner doesn't see you doing something. Yes. Cause they're standing

on one side and my holster's on the other.

So did you, I heard that sequence, you said, uh, going from standing to kneeling, then unholstering. So you unholster from a kneeling position. Typically we'd tell people to unholster from a standing position, just so they're not, if they're depending on what knee they're on, it's not pointing at their leg as they go through. Um, I may have heard that wrong, but, um, the.

And I think that would be something, Travis, we just talked about is, you know, when I went down to a kneeling position, I would I chose to keep mine holstered because then I wasn't moving. I, and maybe, maybe that's wrong. There was no dissertation on whether you had to unholster and then go kneeling.

There is no right and wrong, really, as long as you're doing it safely.

Yes.

There is the common school of thought, how everyone's like, this is how I was taught, so this is how it's got to be done. Right. So there will be people who listen to this and say, Nope, Nope, that's wrong. Cause it's not safe. And that's, that's the only reason I interjected that one part, but realistically you should be able to unholster, prone, supine, kneeling, sitting, right. Uh, and, and know how to do this. It's not always going to be a perfect situation.

And I think for myself, because, um, my examiner was standing on my left side, I'm obviously, it was a right holster. I think when I, I went down, I had, I was doing it in the snow after a blizzard, and I just said, 'cause it was slippery as well.

Yeah.

So I think that's where I, I made the choice where it's like, I'm gonna do my move action and then go f. Unholstered because that way, in my mind's eye, it was the safest scenario because you can slip as you go to kneeling in the snow.

Yeah.

So,

um,

caution and diligence.

Caution and diligence. It says an applicant can only attempt a maximum of two retests for each shooting distance. If an applicant fails to achieve the minimum pass mark after three attempts. For any distance, the applicant cannot attempt to do the POP assessment for, unless 30 days have passed again, exceptions I've seen have been made. The administrator must submit all results, same as before. Um, You know, some people, and we see it time and again, Oh, I want to have my proof of proficiency.

No, I think the, and the biggest thing is just practice. Yeah. You know, I think that's. Were you pretty nervous? Uh, I'm not going to lie. Yes, I was because I wanted to do well. I wanted to do well and it, I, I'm not going to lie. It was a blistering, colding day. It had been a blizzard. I had to cut spruce boughs to get up this one part of our, literally with my ax so that my truck could get in. And then I was like, Oh my gosh, like this is not setting me up for success here. You know?

like

I, I had a lot of pressure, but at the same time, I'm very fortunate enough that I've had an opportunity to train with some very highly decorated soldiers, ex military, ex special agents, you know, through the SIG Sauer and through the instructors that they have there at the academy. So I remember the process and looking with both eyes. And I just, when I got to the range. It's almost like yoga minus the lululemons where you just, you have to just get into the zone.

Yes. And, you know, everyone talks about. Shooting is 90 percent mental, 10 percent physical. And they'll say that for a lot of sports and I find shooting, you got that instantaneous feedback loop where if I did something poorly, I see it on the target right away. Um, work on that 90%. Dry fire. Dry fire. Visualize. Yes.

Especially for Canada, you know, dry fire ammo is expensive. And that's one thing I've done a lot of, um, simulations with, uh, my friends at SIG when we do the guide training, you know, you'll have a partner and you'll get handed your, your firearm. You present it, it might have a live round. It might not. And you find your flinches, you find everything.

And

that's at home. I mean, you can practice. Yeah. With your restricted firearm at home, empty, make sure proof it's safe. You can take your empty magazine and you don't even have to put your magazine and you can rack it and you practice your trigger control. And I, um, Trevor Thompson, he's a friend of mine. He gave me some really positive advice. Practice how you shoot and presentation is everything. Make it muscle memory.

I love that advice. And that ball and dummy is what they call it, whether you have a live round or a dud and, and, uh, you can sure see if you're flinching. Oh

man. I'll tell you what, you want to see a Canadian and I was like, you'll see, pew, pew, and I was like. A couple of my American friends, they laugh, but.

In the, uh, the drawing, I mean, if you're getting ready for your shift, there's nothing, no reason, it's going over to the loading port, going to load up. No, nothing that says you can't draw and holster 10 times in the morning, unload at the end of the day, draw and holster 10 times. Man, that adds up. You got to,

yeah,

you get.

And the firearms these days are so forgiving. Cause I, I asked, I was like, well, this wreck my firing pin. Absolutely not. And I, I asked, I was like, how often do I have to clean my gun? And some of the, like the gentlemen that train have worked extensively. They're like, they're forgiving. I've drug it through hell. Yeah. Obviously, if it gets dirty, you clean it, but that's one thing. Do not be afraid to dry fire and do that practice because that practice is perfect. It's the way to do it.

Perfect practice makes perfect. So questions, uh, what is your profession or occupation as it relates to this application? Describe your work duties. And so, you know, as a free miner, I'm working in, uh, remote wilderness areas as a free miner, and I just, you know, leave it really wide and open. Well, what'd you say?

Well, honestly, so. I did it as a trapper for the wilderness side of it, um, because that's what I thought my prerogative was and I wanted to just get my first application in. So I said, you know, I work in a remote setting. Um, I will, I, I will be active and not limited to carrying and transporting game, large amounts of traps and related supplies and tools, uh, to perform my occupation as well as navigating changing terrain and modes of transportation.

As long as you are. Working in a remote wilderness area, you can be qualified on that one. So that, that leaves it there. I've seen reluctance to issue it for certain professions or other professions, but that comes down to what did the law say? Occupation or profession. Well, you are working on that law, lawful possession, profession, or occupation.

We'll touch on that one later. That was a big question from the audience is I do X, Y, and Z. These are all year round activities. How can I go about doing that?

You just put it down with what your lawful professional occupation is.

Yeah. On your application. What if you've done your application and submitted it already? Like myself. You can

have it updated. You can have that updated in like 24 hours. All right, here we go. So there, there might be, now keep in mind, every application is based as brand new, right? When you go through a renewal. So I would

have to do the entire application.

You'd fill it out again with the new information. This is where dealing with that idea that each one has done brand new. That's policy, right? Okay. This is where we're dealing with people again. So this is, look at here's, I'm working. I want to make sure that I'm on the right side. Make sure I have it listed on my ATC. Now I'm guiding, now I'm doing this. Uh, what will it come back? Um, well, you're guiding, do you have a rifle with you?

Yes. That's the biggest thing is looking at your specifications. And so as a person goes through these questions, just for the people who had questions about it in the audience, that was a big one is if I'm permitted for one, how do I one reapply? Two, do I have to do another whole questionnaire or three, can I have it all encompassing If I'm submitting this for the first time.

So what I've actually seen happen is. Um, I am also doing this, I am following all of the exact same protocol as before. The only addition is this. Can I have it updated? And I've seen that. Is that going to allegedly, is that because, you know, the, The difficult part is, is these people are nice people. A lot of them are decent people and you don't want to throw them under the bus when they're doing you a favor, right? You feel good cause, oh, those really nice are looking out for me.

Absolutely. And if anything, the amount of guides that I know that have had interactions with predators that have meant them harm, you know, your guns leaning against here while you're gutting a moose, your pistol is on your hip and there's been a lot of instances and some, unfortunately, very fatal. That, you know, have, have cost people their lives or they've been maimed to the point where they don't partake in certain activities anymore because of fear that's been installed.

Yes. Um, define the specific remote geographical area where you wish to carry a handgun while working. And what did I put? And I'm looking back as my form was a little bit different. They had a little bit different questions. Um, Anyways, uh, yeah, throughout BC on Crown land and remote wilderness areas is what I put.

Absolutely. And for trapping, you know, um, because I did go after my wilderness to carry as a trapping, you know, outside of dispatch, um, I just said with landowner permission.

Right.

So that's a big one is that you have to have that written down in there. Yes. So.

Okay. Um, what dates do you anticipate Being required to work in that area every day. Every day, the year

round occupation.

Explain why you feel you need to carry a handgun in relation to your profession or your occupation, as opposed to a more effective methods of protection for predatory animals. Example, spray, rifle, shotgun. I like how they say spray is more effective than a handgun. Rifle and shotgun is more effective. Well, What's going to be effective is the thing that you have with you at the time.

Absolutely.

That's going to be effective. Uh, and the handgun is always going to be with you. It's going to be worn with you. Uh, I don't disagree that a rifle or a shotgun with slugs, um, will do greater penetration, more kinetic energy can do greater damage. But it's like you were saying, it's, you don't have your rifle in your hand while you're getting.

It's fast reaction times as well. I mean, by the time you actively go pull, pull up your long rifle, I mean, that takes seconds. Sometimes the act of trying to find and locate your rifle, it's not on your person. Practice makes perfect.

And the idea that spray is going to be more effective.

It has to be effective at very close distances.

Right. And it also has to be, I haven't seen bear spray being tested against, uh, predatory aggressive animals. These are just animals that are passively activated, you have to say, walking on through, you give it a squirt. It's like, I don't like this. I'm going to leave. They're the same ones I would leave if you smacked them in the butt with a broom. Right?

Exactly. When they're in full predator mode and they're coming in, they're engaged to do harm.

Right.

A miscloud of prey. Pepper is not going to do it. No,

that's where central nervous system or lack of oxygen, that, that comes into play. So I, I don't discount pepper spray. Pepper spray is a great tool.

In the right scenario.

It's just another tool that can be used, but it's not a panacea. It's not the be all end all.

Yes. But that's the thing too, is that when you come back to it, is that handguns are the most effective tool. They are. In a wide variety, there is a method of protection. Um, and the biggest thing is that your hands are not encumbered by having to carry your weapon. Right.

And it's not always practical either.

No.

You go through brush and scrub and I mean, you've got this rifle on your back. That's dragging on everything.

Yeah.

Okay. And the

biggest thing too, that I know when I talked to the CFO is that. A lot of times you're putting yourself in close call situations.

But there's an, as you're talking there, I'm reading as well, uh, protect from predatory animals, nowhere in the regulations does it say predatory animals. This is wild animals again, right? So it's like, I get where people's heads are and quite often people are like, well, it's got to be good for a bear. You need it for bear. And that's the only thing that kind of sits Uh, in a lot of people's minds and the issuing body's mind, but they're, you know, wolves.

animal that's been maimed by a predator and you ended up, you end up walking into them. I mean, they're in defense.

Yeah.

Um,

so it's not necessarily predatory animals that you're carrying it for.

Yeah.

The regulations say wild animals.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Um, while working in the remote, while working in this remote area, how many people will work in the immediate area with you within sight or within verbal communication distance? So I, I say typically zero. That's what I wrote. What'd you write?

I've wrote typically zero, you know, a lot of times you're working alone or you're in one or two small people groups and there's a lot of communication that happens. Um, again, you know, I said that while you're working, I am in the act of working, chainsaws, tools, horses, equipment, supplies, my hands are busy, and that's, again, where it comes back to is that your hands are busy and otherwise engaged. You are not actively carrying a defense mechanism.

Right.

So.

Are you registered with British Columbia, WorkSafe BC, or Yukon Workers Compensation Health and Safety Board in the aforementioned profession or occupation? Identify how. I said, nope.

Yes. I, I honestly, um, those questions there, I said not applicable. Yeah. That's what I put in, it's not applicable. Cause the biggest thing is sometimes you're working underneath a guide outfitter, especially if you get certified to carry under guide outfitter, I mean, they've signed off on it and they have their own insurance.

um, if yes, have you or your employer met the obligation under the regional workers compensation board legislation by providing you the worker with training and instruction on the safe handling use of the firearms? So if that's applicable to the individual, we answer as it is for me, it was not applicable as

well.

Uh, explain the risk assessment your employer has conducted in relation to safe avoidance of hazardous wildlife in the remote area in which you will be required to work, attach copy. So it's, that's different. Explain the risk avoidance your employer has in, has conducted. Well, previously they said, uh, that you had conducted.

So

the

wording has changed a bit. I know for myself, I said, because I am self employed, you know, I actively solicit, you know, local knowledge before entering into an area, I'll talk to the other stakeholders that are there, you know, especially if there's other industry practices, uh, for example, like where the trapline is, they were logging. I, I ran into logging trucks and other people On the daily.

percent. Uh, I wrote down, I obtained recent intel from locals and those working in the area. This may include aerial views, uh, recce reports, reconnaissance reports, stats, and sightings and encounter reports. So just, it's pretty broad and open, but I mean, if I'm going to go out, I'm going to do my due diligence. Like you said, talk to people who will be in the area.

Absolutely. Let's get

over here, next page. Explain what information you have obtained from British Columbia slash Yukon conservation officers with regards to predatory animals in remote wilderness area in which you will work, please provide the names and contact information to all those who consulted. So this is a newer one that they put in.

especially when you're asked to provide names and conduct information. Right. Why? So you're soliciting someone else. And to me, I didn't feel comfortable doing that.

Right.

So when I answered mine, Travis, I said, you know, part of my strategy will be to communicate with local organizations and government officials as I further familiarize myself with the area, you know, and, and I'll articulate what I'm finding and I will also understand that it might be, you know, within a timely manner as well. You know, different parts of the season. That way, I, I didn't feel comfortable putting down people's names.

No.

Because I don't know what questions they're going to ask and they don't know me and I don't know them.

That's it. So. But you will be asking, I mean, I mean.

Absolutely.

Do you do due diligence and find out, I mean, what, what info that you're going to ask now is going to have any consequence when you're out there half a year later, right? Absolutely. Explain how you would safely carry your handgun while working in this remote area. I say in accordance with the laws that got a call back for you. I got

a call back for me. It sure did. And it goes down to the same thing as trapping. It has to be holstered on your hip with a level of retention. Yeah.

And I think in a more recent one, uh, put down, uh, Um, in an approved police issue belt slash, uh, thigh holster. I took a path at that time, which was if they're going to look at approving or denying certain types of holsters, why don't I just pick a holster that's already been approved for issue with police agencies. It was good for them. Surely it's good for somebody working in a remote wilderness area. So they've got retention straps. It

has to meet all the requirements. That's it. Yeah. Absolutely. I

just so happen to have a whole bunch of them kicking around, so it made life easy.

Absolutely.

Um, it says, explain how you'd safely store, safely and securely store your handgun while working in the remote wilderness area. So same as your answer for the other one, I should imagine.

Well, so this is store your gun while working in the remote. So that's the trick question on this one. Is that obviously, you know, if you're guiding, when you're traveling to and from the field, you have to be in accordance with your ATT, your transportation.

How did you answer?

I said, I would store in accordance with the federal and provincial legislations. I did say that I would have my transportation, my ATT regulation, um, equipment with me so that if I had to store it for any period of time, I would be in accordance with the law. I did say that on my phone call, but, um, Technically, if you're working in a remote trapline, You know, you're opaque in your truck, in your console, you know, that's outside, outside, out of sight, out of mind if it locks.

Yeah. So it says it's got to be locked to the trunk. If a trunk is available, if no trunk available, it's going to be. Locked in the vehicle, out of sight with the vehicle locked, right? Exactly. So you still have to have

multiple mechanisms of locking.

Right. But he, you do raise a good point. Like what, what storage, I mean, like take it to the silly degree. Well, I'm in a mobile home. Is this transferred as a storage, right? I live in a houseboat. Is it transferred as a storage? Um,

The biggest catch up was while working in this remote area. So for guides, foresters, and everyone else, it's actually staying in a cabin where as a guide, you have meat hanging outside. And you're

still working. You're still working. Just cause you're sleeping doesn't mean you can't get woken up in the night. You're on call. But that's where the due

diligence comes in is obviously there has to be a level of awareness of around camp. It is up to you to make sure that that firearm is in your line of sight on your hip. If it's not on your hip, I would take that as a grey area that it needs to be stored. So, that's where for people that are asking that question, um, because it did come up in a lot of the online questions is, say I get approved for it, do I have to take all this stuff with me when I go to the mountains?

Now, of course, I'm on the spot. We don't have cell coverage where we're at, but, um, I know in non restricted firearms, there is a section for, uh, storage and they can be stored in contravention of the safe storage laws, if it's going to be used relatively soon for predatory animals and the rest. I'm trying to remember if there's something, I don't think it's in there for the restricted or prohibited.

I can see the page online myself. Yes. So maybe we'll put that in the field notes, but that comes down to common sense, because if you live in a remote area, I mean, obviously you're not, you're not storing it unsafely, especially if there's children around or anything like that. But if you have attractants in camp, you're waiting to get a plane out so that you got meat. I mean, that's where it comes down to a due diligence side.

Throw it in there. And what's, what's contravention? Contravention of the laws could be a bunch of things. What I've seen it typically mean is just unloaded. Yeah. Um, typically like having it loaded would be in contravention, but typically what I've seen people come down to as an understanding of a contravention would be is the gun's unloaded, but it's ready for, for, for use if needed. Yeah. Um, okay.

And you know what, in that circumstance, the more the better. If you've had wilderness, um, you know, industrial predator awareness, conflict management, you know, exactly. If you've got first aid, if you've done any, uh, pistol or, um, you Long rifle training, private instruction. You know, if you're, I, I'm a registered guide, so I put my registered guides license down, you know, any information that shows that you are an industry field executive or professional,

put it

in there.

Did you have questions? Cause I know we put some stuff up on the internet. Did you have people asking you questions that we haven't answered?

So the biggest thing that as we kind of worked through this is that people wanted to know. Can I get a firearm if I didn't buy one or I'm still on the waiting list?

Yes.

That was number one question out of the three different rounds I did.

Yeah. So from anecdotally, oh, sorry, allegedly all the rest. Yes.

So how can they go about that?

That's a damn good question. Um, so there still will be businesses that have firearms. Not all the businesses got rid of all their firearms. So those are still available. Those still will be individuals who have restricted, uh, have handguns, cause it's not a restricted firearm, uh, ban or freeze. It's simply a handgun. Um, I have seen people importing from the States. Businesses have imported from the States. I have heard of individuals doing that for work reasons.

Absolutely.

Um,

We're remaining hopeful, ever hopeful, but I think that was, some of the other questions came down to, are there training opportunities for first time, you know, for people that might own a handgun, you know, uh, Silvercore, I know has a lot of great opportunities for learning, whether that's classroom online, is there somewhere that they can go to get training To make them a more proficient shooter.

Uh, well, clearly I'm going to plug Silvercore because we do that. Um, but honestly, there, there's a lot of good places that you can go to. There's a lot of qualified people across the country. Um, look, look for positive Google reviews, not people who are given paying passes and shuffling them through quickly, but for the people that the, um, uh, I mean, I guess those can get positive Google reviews too, that you can read between the lines. And then going into the States as well.

Absolutely. Um, another big question, uh, especially because you guys do so much with handgun proficiency, revolver versus, um, the pistol with the removable, uh, magazine like myself,

I'd say, what do you have? Number one, but yeah, in Canada, what do

you have? What do you have? Right.

But, but number two, uh, I go semi auto.

Yeah.

Uh, and I go semi auto because damn they're robust, right? They are. I don't have to like. Uh, SIG makes amazing stuff, right? Uh, and I've got a number of glocks that I use that have been through hell and back and they still go bang. I've, I've seen these things work with major components broken on them and they just keep plugging away a polymer frame. Kind of nice.

One thing I really like how easy they are to reload. Sure. That's one thing. You drop the magazine, you put another in, you know, when you have a revolver, there's, there, there are cute little ways that you can easily reload, but for safety, I thought I would be a revolver person. That was changed the moment I put a sig in my hand.

The idea that you're going to be in some protracted sort of thing and shooting and then reloading and shooting and reloading and going through, typically you're, Using what you have in the firearm and hopefully that's going to be it.

Absolutely. Worst case Ontario, you want to be able to have another magazine. Yes.

Um, but yeah, the semi autos do interject a couple other things that you need to know from a training standpoint, right. How you hold it's going to change how it cycles, ammunition is going to feed differently. Um, you have to know how to clear some basic stoppages or, or jams with it, but it's not like you don't have to think about some of these things. With a revolver as well.

Absolutely. Now in Canada, we are under certain restriction. For magazine capability. Absolutely. But with my 9, I know I have 10. With my 10 millimeter, I have 8. And you know, my 45 70 that I used to carry, I could fit four down the barrel. So it's like, you know, when you looked at the practicality of it too, like you said, more ammunition.

What's remote wilderness? Wilderness.

Well, it depends for everyone else. Right. So remote wilderness

for you might be different for somebody in the lower mainland, right? Absolutely. So what exactly is remote wilderness? So that, that's the question I'll put out there for people to opine on themselves. And the other one is, uh, So, uh, it says professional occupation. So it's not just, Oh, I'm just working on my roof. Right. But if you can tie that into your professional occupation, like I'm sitting, I'm working on the fence. Right.

Absolutely. I'm just looking through a bunch of the questions here is, you know, I think we covered, where do I start for the wilderness permit? Um, and the biggest thing is you can go online in Canada and that's nat that's national.

Yep.

Um, and that's your 5491E.

Yep.

And I would submit that. Obviously, um, I don't know if you have yours in front of me. I've got mine. You have to have for that particular form, um, um, a permit. You have to have your firearms license number. You obviously have to be able to say whether this is a new or a renewal. Um, If you have an employer, there's a certain section for that as well.

Right. I think your concern, if I recall correctly, was, I don't want to delay this even further.

That's correct. That's why we went after trapping.

Right. So, and I need it now, and it's been so long that it's taken. And now this, you're right, federal form, provincially applied. Some provinces have got this dialed in and they understand it. Other provinces, you're going to have personalities and option individuals. Sorry, Nova Scotia. Um,

Alberta is nicer and easier.

Right. So, uh, just, just from my own personal dealings of different firearms officers and, uh, different offices, I know that some are going to be an easier road for you, some are going to be a little bit more difficult.

Absolutely. And one thing I will say, um, there's a few questions that came through on Instagram asking, you know, Once I've started the process, how do I, what's the appropriate time to follow up? So, obviously that's personal dependent. I mean, I, I did go after the wilderness trapping side. Specific to trapping, because I was coming into December, November, and I wanted to get out there as fast as I could. Um, obviously I still had months in the making.

So what's an appropriate time to follow up? I don't like entering into something without knowing what that timeframe looks like to begin with. I know I need it for this certain time. That's my timeframe between here and now. Right. So if I need it next week, I'm following up every day. Right. Right. If I need it tomorrow, I'm following up every hour. Right. If I need it in four months from now. I'll say, I'll call them up and I'll say, what's an appropriate time.

Because like you said earlier, they're held accountable if they had, in a way, allegedly, allegedly, if you have done everything, you have submitted your application and you are trying to use it to, To protect your life in your occupation. Oh, God forbid something happens. I mean, there is a bit of a precedence. You've, you've jumped through all the hoops and you are there, you are waiting for an answer.

And that accountability goes both ways. Right? So they're held accountable if they say yes. Why did you give this person the gun? Clearly they're mentally unstable and they did all these bad things and they're all through, all over the internet, right? And all through the media. Why didn't you give this person? No is typically the easier answer for most people and most civil servants to. Give, uh, because they feel like it gives them greater control.

And I think we actually might've gone that way, Travis, with my particular application, because it had been prolonged. I was at the end of trapping season and It wasn't until I had put a timeline on it saying, look, like I, my partner was gone. I'm going to be out on the snow machine and I, I, I have intention. I will be going to check my traps at this time, you know? Is this going to be permissible or no? How did I say that? Um,

is this permissible is still waiting for a yes or no, because if they don't answer. What

did we say?

Right. Unless you tell me otherwise, I won't be doing this.

Yes. Unless you tell me otherwise. We use some, we use some wordage to that point. And unfortunately it was until that time that I kept getting stagmented and stagmented in my application because it was several weeks and several months and then all of a sudden come March. The beginning of March, almost all the way through my trapping season, that's when I got the call saying, by the way, we have a problem with your application. You have a prohibited firearm.

Right. Because they've realized what happens. They've, I guess, number one, they can ignore it. Like that's, if they really don't want to give it to you, that's probably their best option. And I've seen denial. Of, uh, licenses and authorizations and certificates, certificates through, um, what's the term refusal through, uh, just not engagement. Basically they just ignore it. They figured this will go away. And then your only recourse is to, to. And even then, that's not the best one.

Hopefully not. Right. You know, worst case, you know, but, uh, yeah. So that, that's a great answer. Um, one of the other questions was, and I mean, are they still offering non restricted courses because of the freeze? A lot of people have seen a retardation of the courses. Or sorry, let me, let's rephrase that. Okay, cut to the editor, cut to the last stage. So let me rephrase the question, start again.

So you can actually purchase restricted firearms. There is no restricted firearm freeze. There's a handgun freeze, and that's where a lot of people get, uh, tied up. You also have, uh, businesses that will have restricted firearms working in the film industry, working in armored car industry, working in, there's a lot of different industries that will need, uh, a restricted firearm. Trapping, guiding, free mining. Like there's, it's a legitimate employment reason.

100

percent I'd

do it. So the last question that I've got here, and it had a lot of hits on it, stupid proof it as far as the process. So we are starting, I mean, if we could put it as ABCD, that would be easiest.

I don't think we can stupid proof it.

No.

No. And I, the reason I don't think we can stupid proof it is because of the fact that we have that human factor. Um, If people want to understand my thoughts anyways, on the human factor and what I've seen work, they'd have to listen to the entirety of this podcast, go to the firearms program website, get your form 5491E, read through the requirements on there.

Key on working.

Right. Do your proof of proficiency training as outlined, put your application in. Um, that would be the fastest, easiest way to do it. You can also call them up and get the questionnaire ahead of time and just say, Hey, I want the questionnaire. I'm going to fill it out. I'm going to put it through, uh, ask for an email address that you can send it to rather than mailing it. If you're mailing it, send it by certified mail so that you've got some sort of

tracking

and record of delivery receipt signed for, um, emails easier, Easy to copy, easy to have it, and, uh. You can

access it anywhere.

Yeah. And then follow up, put that timeframe on it and follow up.

The biggest thing is. You can do all those steps, but it's on you at the end of the day, it's on you to practice, it's on you to shoot your pop, it's on you to follow up, they don't owe you anything.

Not at all.

And that's the biggest thing, that's why I stuck through it and it was hard and it was frustrating at a lot of times. And it took a lot longer than I thought, but the process really made me appreciate the opportunity.

Rachel, I think we've covered a lot of, lot of ground on this one. Now, whenever I get people calling me up and asking for help, I'll say, have you listened to this episode, right? Go through it from start to finish. Absolutely. That. Really gets the major nuts and bolts of the secret sauce out there into the public view for people to look at. I'd love to hear questions that people have. I'd love to see comments. Other people who've been successful, please let us know what your route was.

Absolutely. And here's a 2025.

I love it. Thank you, Travis. Thank you.