February Bonus Episode

[SPEAKER_10]: and welcome to our show. [SPEAKER_10]: The shit no one tells you about writing. [SPEAKER_10]: I'm best selling author Bianca Marie, and I'm joined by CC Lira of Wendy Sherman Associates and Carly Waters of PS Literary. [SPEAKER_10]: Everyone, today's guest is the bestselling author of The Haters, the drowning woman, the perfect family, the swap, the arrangement, her pretty face and the party. [SPEAKER_10]: She is also written an executive produced at Independent Phone.

[SPEAKER_10]: She lives in Vancouver, British Columbia, with her husband and two cute but dearly rescue two hours. [SPEAKER_10]: It's my pleasure to welcome Robin Harding, Robin, welcome to the show. [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for having me. [SPEAKER_02]: It's so nice to be here and to catch up with you. [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, wonderful to have you here. [SPEAKER_10]: For those of you who aren't watching on YouTube, I am holding up the book cover, strangers in the villa.

[SPEAKER_10]: And I'm going to quickly read you the flap copies so that you all have some context. [SPEAKER_10]: And then Robin and I are going to dive in. [SPEAKER_10]: So, Sydney Lowe's life in New York is shattered when her husband Curtis admits to a meaningless affair with a client, begging for forgiveness and vowing to prove his devotion, Curtis suggests the couple retreater, emotes Heltop house in Spain to repair their marriage.

[SPEAKER_10]: High above the Mediterranean, Sydney and Curtis are working on the isolated property and their relationship when a pair of Australian travellers turns up at their door in dire need of help. [SPEAKER_10]: Lonely for companionship and desperate for free labour, Sydney and Curtis invite the attractive young couple to stay. [SPEAKER_10]: But as the day's past dark secrets come to life, the lowest bond is tested and not everyone will leave the villa alive.

[SPEAKER_10]: Don't, don't, don't, don't, don't. [SPEAKER_10]: love it. [SPEAKER_02]: Love it. [SPEAKER_02]: The book is coming March 3rd, but you can pre-order it now. [SPEAKER_02]: Any where books are sold and pre-orders are the greatest thing for a book success. [SPEAKER_02]: So if you're interested, please consider pre-ordering. [SPEAKER_10]: preorders are so important. [SPEAKER_10]: People are always like, what do you give writers? [SPEAKER_10]: You give them preorders as gifts.

[SPEAKER_10]: And we're going to link to this as well in our sub stack and we'll put it on our bookshop.org affiliate page. [SPEAKER_10]: So you'll be able to pre order from there as well. [SPEAKER_10]: Right, so Robert, this begins with a what we like to call a sneaky prologue. [SPEAKER_10]: It isn't termed a prologue. [SPEAKER_10]: But it says the cost of brother house for sale and it gives like the description of the house, etc. [SPEAKER_10]: Was this always there?

[SPEAKER_10]: Was this a description you wrote for yourself in the beginning of the story? [SPEAKER_10]: Tell us why you began with that listing as it were. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I wanted to start with the listing because it's what draws this couple to Spain. [SPEAKER_02]: They see this listing that is this diamond in the rough and they can work together and sort of a metaphor for their relationship, their relationship is in a bad place.

[SPEAKER_02]: But if they work hard enough, they can rebuild this into a beautiful home and a beautiful marriage again. [SPEAKER_02]: And so I found a house online that was kind of the house in my head. [SPEAKER_02]: and it was sort of a compilation of a few houses, but I, you know, drew from those real estate listings, and they're very flowery in Europe.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's funny, you know real estate listings in Canada seem to be a little [SPEAKER_02]: You know, they're just pretty basic and, and, you know, there's the buzzwords that mean this is a beautiful cozy mean small and but they go for it in Europe. [SPEAKER_02]: So I had fun writing that in the voice of a Spanish Realtor. [SPEAKER_10]: It was very romanticized and I think that's often what happens with people, right? [SPEAKER_10]: We go on vacation to a place.

[SPEAKER_10]: We like this place is amazing and it's away from our normal life so we can imagine ourselves living there. [SPEAKER_10]: This listing was like exactly the kind of thing that you know is just going to draw someone in and be able to insert themselves between the lines to imagine what their life will be like in this home.

[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly and they come there, you know, so broken and so damaged and so there's so much riding on this house because it's like I said it kind of represents [SPEAKER_10]: loved it, loved it as a metaphor and as an introduction, also gave you something to imagine before we started diving into it. [SPEAKER_10]: Something that I want to discuss is, it seems to be a lot of pressure with psychological thrillers.

[SPEAKER_10]: These days to put a straight into the action, you know, we've got to have like a flash forward pro log that's at the middle or where something bad is happening and that sort of detracts from the openings that allow for setting the scene giving some. [SPEAKER_10]: Back story about these characters, giving some context. [SPEAKER_10]: Is this something that you found? [SPEAKER_10]: Because you have been in industry for a while.

[SPEAKER_10]: So you have seen how things evolve and what it is once and what they don't want. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think it's from my perspective, it's readers that want that. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, readers, I see so many comments and posts about, you know, don't waste my time giving me into it, right? [SPEAKER_02]: You need to hook them really fast. [SPEAKER_02]: In order to care, we need to know these characters. [SPEAKER_02]: So it is a struggle.

[SPEAKER_02]: It is a struggle to make sure that we are kicking things off with a bang, but also developing these humans that we are gonna spend this next 350 pages with. [SPEAKER_02]: So I think what's working for me, I hope it's working for me.

[SPEAKER_02]: is planting the intrigue, so maybe the action doesn't happen that much with the intrigue, so that we know Some's not right, but we don't know what that is, so that's kind of what I am using as I do Set up of the characters and the scene and the scenarios is kind of Plat seeds that readers pick up on and say, yeah, this is off [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, we, on the podcast, we call them curiosity seeds and we love them.

[SPEAKER_10]: So you plant them early on, you keep watering them, you keep watering them. [SPEAKER_10]: And at some point they're going to bloom and the reader who's paying attention is waiting for the payoff of the bloom because they know something's coming, right? [SPEAKER_10]: Because I think that we want these days, especially in the time of this so much distraction, is you don't want readers who said they're being spooned fit.

[SPEAKER_10]: engage to a theorizing who are figuring things out because that makes them turn the page. [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, totally agree. [SPEAKER_02]: Totally agree. [SPEAKER_02]: And as a reader, I feel the same way. [SPEAKER_02]: Like I love when I think, oh, oh, I know. [SPEAKER_02]: I know. [SPEAKER_02]: And then so many adults, I'm going to do, right? [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, yeah, sometimes you have guests, and other times the best time is when when you haven't.

[SPEAKER_10]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_10]: But yeah, what I like is that we had two chapters of sort of set up from you. [SPEAKER_10]: We got the context of these characters. [SPEAKER_10]: We understood things are pretty messy as we're coming in. [SPEAKER_10]: There's a lot of layers of messiness. [SPEAKER_10]: These even like this. [SPEAKER_10]: Power imbalance.

[SPEAKER_10]: So CC my agent is often on the podcast and she says she loves opening with power imbalances and you would think okay this is a married couple there isn't a power imbalance but he has done something bad and she is definitely loading that over it. [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, so she has the power, even she's the damaged the injured party, but she has the power because he's done all this for her. [SPEAKER_02]: He's like, I choose you over my career, over our wonderful life in New York.

[SPEAKER_02]: All I care about is this marriage. [SPEAKER_02]: And so she holds the keys to everything. [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, it was fun to write that, but she's broken also.

[SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, I just found it so interesting because, you know, we speak so much about power imbalance and then we often think of it in terms of socio-economic power imbalance or this one's the bus and this one works for them etc. [SPEAKER_10]: But for our listeners, what Robin is done here show brilliantly how power imbalance can exist. [SPEAKER_10]: in very different ways in ways that you wouldn't expect.

[SPEAKER_10]: So when you are playing around with power in balances, you know, it doesn't have to be the kind of traditional this one's in charge of that one. [SPEAKER_10]: This one's got more money than that one. [SPEAKER_10]: It could be these subtle, you know, things that happen in relationships all the time. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I'm writing something right now, which I can't talk about yet, but there's a power imbalance between a mother and the daughter and the daughter has the power.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it is interesting is like one character, you know, it's a college age daughter who's like, you know, comes home and she's superior and the mom's trying to get the relationship back. [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, there's so many power imbalances that are emotional. [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, families messy. [SPEAKER_10]: And we love messy. [SPEAKER_10]: We love missing us in stories, not in our own lives, but in in story really, really like messiness.

[SPEAKER_10]: Okay, so when it comes again to the inciting incident, that happens pretty soon. [SPEAKER_10]: I think it's like chapter three or whatever, we have this couple arriving. [SPEAKER_10]: And on the podcast, we're always saying the inciting incident needs to answer the why now, [SPEAKER_10]: Why today question? [SPEAKER_10]: Why is the story starting now? [SPEAKER_10]: Why didn't it start last week? [SPEAKER_10]: Why is it not starting next week?

[SPEAKER_10]: And then it gets all the dominoes tipping over. [SPEAKER_10]: So for you, was this always very clear in your mind, Robin? [SPEAKER_10]: This is our inciting incident and this is where we're going from there. [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I did want to get into the story that fast because I know that's what readers want, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: I could have spent [SPEAKER_02]: Six chapters with Sidney and Curtis and their power dynamic and their damage relationship, but I thought that knock at the door really kicks off the action. [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, I don't know if you call this a cheater not, but, you know, there's a knock at the door and Curtis slides his chair back and he's like, it's fine. [SPEAKER_02]: It's fine. [SPEAKER_02]: And then he says, why does he feel the sense of dread?

[SPEAKER_02]: So he has this inherent reaction to that knock at the door that it's not good news. [SPEAKER_02]: and yeah. [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, I don't feel like that's a cheat at all.

[SPEAKER_10]: I mean in life all the time we have premonitions etc. [SPEAKER_10]: I feel like if you use it too much in a story or these too many coincidences or these too many you know intercipations of dread or whatever can be a problem but like but you use it once there it goes and it immediately makes us pay attention like this is not a normal knock at the door.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, and so he's like, so it's kind of the first scene is through Sydney's eyes when when they open the door and she's like, why is he being so weird like they're this nice young couple of broken down and he's like, what do you want and she's all, you know, hey can I charge your phone she's all sweet. [SPEAKER_02]: So again, the dynamic in the marriage comes through in the scene with these interlopers.

[SPEAKER_10]: I love that because, you know, so often we focus just on revealing character by Anna telling the reader who the character is, etc. [SPEAKER_10]: But so much can be read between the lines of how they interact with people. [SPEAKER_10]: And like you say, I'd knock at the door like, ah, [SPEAKER_10]: I was, I was mocking a friend of mine who every time she goes on vacation, she makes really good friends.

[SPEAKER_10]: The kind of friends that you'll travel across the world to see in five long places. [SPEAKER_10]: Lisa, I'm saying hi to you because I know you listen to the podcast and I'm the person if I'm on vacation or at a resort or something and people want to talk to me, I'm like, no. [SPEAKER_10]: I hold up my book. [SPEAKER_10]: I'm just like, I'm not here to talk to people. [SPEAKER_10]: I'm not yet to make raids up here to just like relax and whatever.

[SPEAKER_10]: And so it's so funny how much you can ascertain about a person just buy those kinds of things. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, those little interactions that reveal so much of character. [SPEAKER_02]: And I think I love to, you know, I'm such a fan of writing dialogue, it's my favorite thing to write. [SPEAKER_02]: And I think, you know, just this [SPEAKER_02]: This third chapter exchange between these four people really does a lot for character. [SPEAKER_10]: for all of them, right?

[SPEAKER_10]: So it sets all of them up. [SPEAKER_10]: It gives us as a read as a lot to theorize about. [SPEAKER_10]: It gets us to kind of be squirming and being, oh, this one's being a bit rude, and this one's being a bit this. [SPEAKER_10]: And, you know, as a South African, we have a friendly rivalry with Australia in the rugby. [SPEAKER_10]: So I always say, so I always say, don't trust Australians at your front door.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm Australian, so I knew all the Aussieism [SPEAKER_10]: Oh, they were incredible. [SPEAKER_10]: I loved those. [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, so let's talk about structure. [SPEAKER_10]: We've got Sydney and Curtis sections. [SPEAKER_10]: We've got the anchor and Damian sections and they're interspersed with transcripts of couple's counseling sessions. [SPEAKER_10]: Robin, how much do you plot? [SPEAKER_10]: How much do you pence? [SPEAKER_10]: How much of this is set up before you dive in?

[SPEAKER_10]: How much of it is feeling your way in celebrating as you go [SPEAKER_02]: I'd say it's about 50, 50. [SPEAKER_02]: So I do set up the major plot points. [SPEAKER_02]: I use the save the cats, screenwriting structure to make sure that I have enough plot turns and that they're coming at the right time. [SPEAKER_02]: So I would say I plotted the key turning points.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then I just, I always say they're like pegs on the wall, [SPEAKER_02]: And then I write from peg to peg and try to get there in the most interesting way possible. [SPEAKER_02]: So you've got say 60 pages to get to the next turning point. [SPEAKER_02]: And you're like, what can happen in these 60 pages that is going to keep the reader really engaged and turning the pages to get to that huge next big twist?

[SPEAKER_10]: yeah in terms of those transcripts did you write them all back to back so that you could understand this couple better and what they were going through or were the transcripts also you get to a point and you like I feel like this is a good spot to have some sort of transcripts so they would get a bit more information [SPEAKER_02]: I really struggled with those transcripts because, believe it or not, I've never been to couples therapy.

[SPEAKER_02]: Even though I've been married for like 100 years, but one of my very good friends is a psychologist and does couples counseling. [SPEAKER_02]: So, I knew what I wanted to reveal in those sessions and then I worked with her. [SPEAKER_02]: to make sure it was realistic to what a therapist would ask and what a couple would reveal. [SPEAKER_02]: And I really wrote them all, like you said, kind of in a chunk, and then I have to figure out where they fit.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it was so interesting how they did fit into the plot from my perspective, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: There were places where I'm like, oh, this is the perfect time to reveal Curtis's childhood, or Sydney's childhood, or their trust issues, and you know, [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure you find the same like there's this kismat that happens in a in a story where you're like ah these things are clicking and and that you didn't think they were going to and then they do and it's it's such a nice little moment of magic when you're writing.

[SPEAKER_10]: But it's also such a smart way of essentially providing backstory, because I think this is something that we struggle with the most as writers, because often, I mean in this story, the Insighting incident is when he had the affair, which is the fall that, you know, like one of the Insighting incident is before the story even begins, and then we have an Insighting incident that we see on the page.

[SPEAKER_10]: And you could have begun with them in therapy while they're showing this messiness before they decide to move. [SPEAKER_10]: And that for me is always interesting is where you decide to begin, because the story can start anyway, right? [SPEAKER_10]: So for you as a seasoned writer, you'd like no, I'm not starting with the backstory. [SPEAKER_10]: I'm going to find an interesting way of interspersing that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so one thing I think in thrillers anyway is, like you said, sometimes the inciting incident has already happened. [SPEAKER_02]: Does that make sense? [SPEAKER_02]: Like obviously there's going to be another one that's going to kick us into a new section of the plot, but usually I start with, I mean, the inciting incident could have been the move to Spain, but we're already in it, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, we could have said, all this couple and their, you know, deciding should they divorce and then they decide to move to Spain. [SPEAKER_02]: that in itself is inciting incident. [SPEAKER_02]: So I usually start like, when I was doing screenwriting, they get in late, get out early, is the same, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: So it's like, let's, where can I push them to so that, you know, the readers are as far into this scene as possible, and then keep the action going from there. [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I use the transcripts as ways to give us more little kernels as we go of what was actually done in the marriage, what actually happened without them having to have like a big laborious conversation about it.

[SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, because they'd have to sit and go, well, in the past you did this and I did this and it and I mean you could have also had them seeing therapist in Spain, if you wanted to, but again, I feel like the transcripts were based because that's was in the past.

[SPEAKER_10]: So it was a really brilliant way, I think, of giving the reader backstory and context, but each time you revealed it, [SPEAKER_10]: the problem with back stories that you can drag the reader back and it can slow down the forward momentum. [SPEAKER_10]: But because they were so short and each one revealed something that the reader didn't know had actually ended up moving the story forward. [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, it's good. [SPEAKER_02]: And I love reading that format.

[SPEAKER_02]: I just find it fun when I'm reading a thriller. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm reading not quite dead yet by Holly Jackson. [SPEAKER_02]: Just started it. [SPEAKER_02]: And I just love the breakup when you're reading a dense book and then suddenly you've got a police transcript or a psychologist transcript. [SPEAKER_02]: I just am a fan of that break for the eyes and the brain just a different kind of style to take in information.

[SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, and it makes it more interesting because as well, what you could have done is you could have done a dual, sorry, I have to pronounce it that way, because we're not pronounced a dual, everybody thinks I'm talking about diamonds. [SPEAKER_10]: A dual timeline narrative. [SPEAKER_10]: You could have gone backwards and forwards, you know, like them in the past, them now, them in the past.

[SPEAKER_10]: Yes. [SPEAKER_10]: And again, this was a brilliant way of doing the backstory and avoiding that dual timeline narrative. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because I already have like shifting perspectives. [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like you can bog things down if you're going, I mean, there is some past, I guess there is some, some, [SPEAKER_02]: past scenes from Bianca and Damian. [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, it would have been a lot.

[SPEAKER_02]: It would have been a lot if I had both of the moving back and forward in time and shifting perspectives. [SPEAKER_02]: So I just wanted to kind of show what really was the impetus to add those. [SPEAKER_02]: But I just, you know, it's just something you feel when you're writing, you're like, I think there could be a new, there could be a break here that gives some kind of insight in a fresh way.

[SPEAKER_10]: It was an elegant solution and I think so much of writing is trying to find the elegant simple solution because, you know, I've used the analogy before of a just drawing an outline of a figure and that's writing and then we feel like it's not working and so we just start to color it in more and more and more because we feel like adding more words is going to help and often that completely [SPEAKER_10]: detracts from the original image you had.

[SPEAKER_10]: So when you come up with that elegant solution, it's incredible. [SPEAKER_10]: It just feels like angels singing. [SPEAKER_02]: Yes. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm so glad it worked for you because I really enjoyed having those in there as well and talking to my therapist friend, she's so smart and so wise about relationships and it was really insightful. [SPEAKER_02]: she was like diagnosing them for me. [SPEAKER_02]: The characters. [SPEAKER_10]: That's incredible.

[SPEAKER_10]: I think, yeah, we've said before, put your characters through therapy. [SPEAKER_10]: You know, have them have a, there's actually a podcast who puts characters through therapy, your main characters, etc. [SPEAKER_10]: And so they can reveal a lot more than what you actually know in terms of what their diagnosis would be. [SPEAKER_02]: I do write character profiles and beforehand.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I do know a lot about their history and who they are, then it really informs how they move through the plot. [SPEAKER_10]: Oh wow. [SPEAKER_10]: So I had a Mary McKinnon does the same. [SPEAKER_10]: And she sort of shared her character outlines with everybody. [SPEAKER_10]: So is that like quite a detailed form? [SPEAKER_10]: Is it something you've put together yourself or something that you've gotten from somewhere?

[SPEAKER_02]: I just put the, I, I just do it my own way and I don't, you know, I find outlining and all the, the pre work, I'm always keen to get into the book. [SPEAKER_02]: So it's usually point form, but I do like to know where they grew up, how they grew up. [SPEAKER_02]: things like that. [SPEAKER_02]: I had a friend who you still like mire's brags all her characters. [SPEAKER_02]: Like, you know, do the whole thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: But for me, it's just kind of notes that, you know, just like kind of a brief backstory that I put together so that I know who they are. [SPEAKER_02]: And, and it just really makes it easy as you're going through the plot. [SPEAKER_02]: Like, yeah, how would she react if that's where she comes from and how her mother treated her and how her father treated her like how, you know, it just is kind of a, [SPEAKER_02]: that's which makes the character who they are.

[SPEAKER_10]: I like that. [SPEAKER_10]: It's more of a psychological sort of approach than just she has blue eyes. [SPEAKER_10]: And she has brown hair, which a lot of these characters she has, which kind of irritate me. [SPEAKER_02]: I never sometimes I don't. [SPEAKER_02]: Other than for consistency, their looks are less important to me than their psyche. [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, no, unless that's a clue in the story.

[SPEAKER_10]: So in terms of uping tension and stakes, which is so important in psychological thrillers, you know, you want that slow burn and then things need to get a little bit more sort of tense and then they need to get a little bit more in each time the stakes need to to be up.

[SPEAKER_10]: So is that something that you do with the help of the save the cats in [SPEAKER_10]: You ever find yourself recalibrating as you're going along deciding something wasn't going to hit the spot the way you thought? [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's so true. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's always fluid. [SPEAKER_02]: I think what's interesting though is if you have those plot points in place and the challenge instead of being 350 pages is 50 pages.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm writing to get to this huge thing that's going to happen and what twists and turns going to take along the way. [SPEAKER_02]: And sometimes you're like, oh, wait a minute, this twist is bigger than that than the midpoint twist that I thought I was going to have. [SPEAKER_02]: And sometimes you can be like, okay, well, now that's the midpoint twist.

[SPEAKER_02]: So everything's fluid, but I think that, you know, breaking the novel into, [SPEAKER_02]: these eight sections, you know, that sounds so minimizing it. [SPEAKER_02]: But breaking it into these plot point to plot point and then really focusing on getting between these big action beats in the most interesting way possible and keeping readers engaged.

[SPEAKER_02]: It really makes it more manageable because I don't know what you but when I'm writing thrillers like my brain is [SPEAKER_02]: twisting and it's really, it's hard work. [SPEAKER_02]: It's so hard. [SPEAKER_02]: I used to write comedy. [SPEAKER_02]: I felt so much like, I just felt so much, I just bang out. [SPEAKER_02]: And now I'm like, oh my god, like, how do I keep them guessing and how do I keep them on their toes and not figuring it all out?

[SPEAKER_10]: And read as or so much more sophisticated these days. [SPEAKER_10]: Like, it takes a lot to like surprise them [SPEAKER_02]: it's really, it is. [SPEAKER_02]: And even when you've had several thrillers, like, I have, I'm like, how do I not repeat myself? [SPEAKER_02]: Let alone everybody else, right? [SPEAKER_10]: So yeah, that is, that must be a challenge with that many books.

[SPEAKER_10]: Something that I just finished watching that actually surprised me and not much does was his and hers on Netflix and that's based on a book that [SPEAKER_10]: Yes, I know I actually want to read that but but that ending really took me by surprise and it's not often that it happened so it's great when that does happen.

[SPEAKER_10]: But what you've just said about being in the industry so long, you know, we don't see a lot of authors with longevity and this is the part that gives me a panic attack as a writer who's published full books and still hasn't had a New York Times basil or whatever is that each time your only as good as your last book.

[SPEAKER_10]: I used to believe once you made it through the gates, there you were, angels singing and you don't realise that a lot of those angels are like bounces, they're going to check you out of that club, man, if you don't. [SPEAKER_10]: So if you don't keep upping it, so like have you changed editors along the way, publishers have you changed agents along the way, if you can just give us a bit of [SPEAKER_02]: So the only thing I have not changed is agents.

[SPEAKER_02]: I have been with my agent. [SPEAKER_02]: I said, he's the other than my marriage. [SPEAKER_02]: He's my longest relationship with a male. [SPEAKER_02]: We get together for 22 years or something. [SPEAKER_10]: That is incredible, Robin. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: So he plucked my very first manuscript out of the slush pile in 2003. [SPEAKER_02]: and he has been my writer die.

[SPEAKER_02]: I dedicated a book to him and said, writer die since 2003 and seen me through all these crazy changes. [SPEAKER_02]: So it's nice to have that stability because I have changed genres. [SPEAKER_02]: I have changed publishers. [SPEAKER_02]: I have changed editors. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I have been doing this since then like that's a long time 23 years and I guess I [SPEAKER_02]: I did it once, I can do it again.

[SPEAKER_02]: So if I get dropped, which I have been publishers are like, just last book didn't perform like we wanted. [SPEAKER_02]: Bye, you know, and I remain professional. [SPEAKER_02]: I take it on the chin, yes, it hurts. [SPEAKER_02]: But I have been in this business so long, and I just have to believe in my own ability as a writer to [SPEAKER_02]: create something new and interesting, you know, like the drowning woman was a comeback book for me.

[SPEAKER_02]: I had been dropped by Simon and Schuster Post-Pandemic. [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of, they kind of got rid of a big, had a big call of thriller authors and a kind of stop coming, but it was still, you know, it was painful, but I was like, I'm just going to write a really good book that I hope will be, you know, engaging enough to get me back into this game. [SPEAKER_02]: And it did, and that has been by far my most successful book. [SPEAKER_10]: Success is the best revenge.

[SPEAKER_10]: You're like, you don't want my book. [SPEAKER_10]: I'm gonna show you it. [SPEAKER_10]: I'm gonna write a book that sounds shabley copies. [SPEAKER_02]: So it's, and I just, you know, it's some, who knows what will happen. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm under contract for another book, which I, it's nice to have a two book deal, because, you know, my last publisher didn't want to commit to two books. [SPEAKER_02]: We went book by book.

[SPEAKER_02]: We did like five books, but they, you know, every time I had to pitch. [SPEAKER_02]: Right now, any idea. [SPEAKER_02]: And so this time I have a little bit of stability, but I don't know what will happen after. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean the market changes and [SPEAKER_02]: publishers change editors move, you know, there's so many unknowns, but I, I really try to just have believe in myself that I can, you know, keep it going.

[SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, and I love the craft that keeps you back to the page. [SPEAKER_02]: What else am I going to do? [SPEAKER_10]: It isn't, isn't credible and I always say publishing's like that. [SPEAKER_10]: seen in friends where they carrying the couch up the stairs and Ross just keeps screaming pivot, pivot, pivot, pivot, everything in publishing is constantly pivoting.

[SPEAKER_10]: You've got to pivot from one genre to the next, from one editor to the next and you've just really got to adapt and be versatile. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah and you just have to make sure that it's something that you

[SPEAKER_02]: love to write you know like I you love to read and love to write I went from comedy to thrillers because you know I I was writing kind of humorous women's fiction then I took a break to do screenwriting and when I wanted to get back in the book business I was like well what do I read now I read thrillers I read dark stuff and I was like I write it I don't know and that I wrote the party was my first kind of for a into darkness

[SPEAKER_02]: and it really launched me on a new career, and I find it so much fun. [SPEAKER_02]: Hard work, but one. [SPEAKER_10]: And now you're like, hello, darkness, my old friend. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: No, yes, me and darkness. [SPEAKER_10]: I love it. [SPEAKER_10]: Robin, our time is up, so I'm for our listeners. [SPEAKER_10]: I'm holding up the cover again, strangers in the villa.

[SPEAKER_10]: Again, do the pre-orders, please support our authors, pre-orders are so, so important. [SPEAKER_10]: We're going to link to it on our bookshop.org affiliate page, and you can get it there as well. [SPEAKER_10]: We wish you so much success with the drama. [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much. [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for having me. [SPEAKER_02]: I feel a lot of your chat to you. [SPEAKER_10]: This guest lives with her family in Toronto, Canada, where she works as a professional book editor.

[SPEAKER_10]: After many years on the other side of the desk, she decided to put a lifelong love of joyous, escapeous romantic stories into her own writing. [SPEAKER_10]: The book tour is her first novel. [SPEAKER_10]: It's my pleasure to welcome Emily O'Hengenian. [SPEAKER_10]: Emily, welcome to the show. [SPEAKER_10]: Thanks, Bianca. [SPEAKER_10]: Thanks for having me. [SPEAKER_10]: It's so wonderful to get to chat to you because I met you so early in the process.

[SPEAKER_10]: I think the book deal had just been announced at that point. [SPEAKER_10]: So those of you not watching on YouTube, I'm holding up the cover of the book which is absolutely beautiful. [SPEAKER_10]: And I think Emily, when I had you at my book launch, all we had to promote you at the time was the deal announcement. [SPEAKER_10]: Is that right? [SPEAKER_03]: That's right.

[SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, everything started [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, Jesus, it's amazing how glacial and also have quickly publishing moves. [SPEAKER_10]: This times where it feels like a whole Ice Age has passed. [SPEAKER_10]: And then there's times where it's like, you have to get them things yesterday all the week before. [SPEAKER_10]: So it's like, yeah.

[SPEAKER_10]: I want to, because you're a debut author, I really want to pick your brain on your journey to publication because there are so many ways of doing it and I listen as love hearing them. [SPEAKER_10]: So, I know you were, you know, in publishing before hand, take us through what inspired you to write this particular book. [SPEAKER_10]: If it was your first book, if there were books that are hiding [SPEAKER_03]: It is my first book.

[SPEAKER_03]: It is the only book I have written, and only novel length book that I've ever written. [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, it's sorry, since then I have written another book, but it was the first one that I wrote. [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, I worked in publishing for many years. [SPEAKER_03]: I worked at Harlequin and Harper Collins.

[SPEAKER_03]: For many years and loved that job, I was a senior editor and you know, it was, [SPEAKER_03]: a terrific career, a very fulfilling, I got to work with books for living, which is, I mean, the dream. [SPEAKER_03]: And it is really what I wanted to do with my life. [SPEAKER_03]: So, very happy there. [SPEAKER_03]: A few years ago, I resigned from that position. [SPEAKER_03]: The scope of the job had changed. [SPEAKER_03]: I wasn't doing as much editing.

[SPEAKER_03]: I really missed working closely with the books. [SPEAKER_03]: So I resigned to build a freelance career instead and then I got to do more work with authors and sort of direct editing with a lot more of my time, which was the dream. [SPEAKER_03]: And so a few months after I had started freelancing, you know, like my my mental bandwidth was a lot higher after having left and in house corporate job.

[SPEAKER_03]: which had been very, you know, it just took over a lot of my mental bandwidth. [SPEAKER_03]: So it was nice to have a little bit more room to breathe, a little bit more room to think. [SPEAKER_03]: And I just started thinking on this idea. [SPEAKER_03]: It really started with Anna, the protagonist. [SPEAKER_03]: She came to me as like a fully formed kind of character. [SPEAKER_03]: And I thought, I'd long wanted to read a character like this in romance.

[SPEAKER_03]: I had long wanted to read the kind of second gen experience [SPEAKER_03]: She has in a romance novel that I just hadn't seen it done exactly this way before and so I was thinking about it and it hadn't it didn't even occur to me to write a novel honestly, but then it just sort of wouldn't leave me alone I kept thinking about it and then I just decided you know why not like I have extra time now I was used to working. [SPEAKER_03]: long hours, you know, like hustling all the time.

[SPEAKER_03]: So happy to spend my evening sort of noodling with this with a manuscript. [SPEAKER_03]: And I just thought, you know, why not just give it a shot? [SPEAKER_03]: If it's sock, nobody has to know whatever. [SPEAKER_03]: And if it's good, then, you know, question mark, what happened? [SPEAKER_03]: I guess. [SPEAKER_03]: So I started writing it in earnest, like, I don't know, somewhere between six months to a year after I left my in-house job.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then it was, you know, a process I had no [SPEAKER_03]: I harbored no illusions that it would be easy to write a book. [SPEAKER_03]: I know how challenging it is. [SPEAKER_03]: I always really admired people who could write books. [SPEAKER_03]: It was quite a challenge. [SPEAKER_03]: When I was done with it, I was really

[SPEAKER_03]: I was really happy with it, I finished a draft, I did many revisions myself and then I sent it to an author friend just to see, you know, is this, should I be embarrassed and just locking it away and never, never let it see the light of day and she was really instrumental because she was so effusive with her feedback and so encouraging and, you know, she immediately was like send it to everybody, you know, this has to be out there kind of things.

[SPEAKER_03]: have the courage to start querying it. [SPEAKER_10]: And then from there was at a case of, you know, just looking at agents who represented books you admired, how how did that process look? [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so because I was in the industry prior, I had a good sense of sort of which agents were representing what I wanted to work [SPEAKER_03]: with an agent who I hadn't worked with in my editor life because I didn't want to sort of muddy those waters too much.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I did sort of query agents that I hadn't directly worked with before just to sort of go and clean like that. [SPEAKER_03]: And I knew [SPEAKER_03]: You know, who had a good reputation, who represented what? [SPEAKER_03]: I did a lot of research on publishes marketplace to see who was selling what for more recently. [SPEAKER_03]: And then I started querying in very small batches to start. [SPEAKER_03]: And about, I think it took about six months until I heard back from an agent.

[SPEAKER_03]: And she was like in the last batch, I think, that I had queried. [SPEAKER_03]: So that's my plug for querying in batches. [SPEAKER_03]: and it can be discouraging. [SPEAKER_03]: So if you can sort of start with your list and see like who is sort of prioritized and then start to work your way down the list in batches, I think that that worked really well for me.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then yeah, so six months after that, I signed with that agent, the first person who got in touch with me and then [SPEAKER_03]: we did some edits together for I think that took about six weeks and then we went on sub and sub went really fast. [SPEAKER_03]: That was really lucky.

[SPEAKER_03]: It just happened to catch a couple of people's interest and then that got the snowball kind of rolling with other people in terms of getting them to read it more quickly and sort of having it languish in their inboxes for a long time.

[SPEAKER_10]: That's amazing and I always wonder about editor being edited, you know, it's it's always such a different thing because Yeah, you are you edit other people's work and suddenly other people's editing your work and you know, was it did you find it difficult or was it like Oh, finally I can hand this across to somebody else who's it becomes their problem. [SPEAKER_03]: Well, it doesn't become their problem. [SPEAKER_03]: It's still my problem.

[SPEAKER_03]: But it was actually really, it was wonderful. [SPEAKER_03]: My editors are amazing. [SPEAKER_03]: I work with really, really smart women. [SPEAKER_03]: And I mean, I think it's hard to find not smart women in this, is this, honestly. [SPEAKER_03]: People are just really sharp. [SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, it was it was honestly wonderful to work with these editors and they only helped to improve the book so much more obviously there's still the emotional component of.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know. [SPEAKER_03]: The roller coaster of emotions of feeling like, oh, you want it to be perfect and then you're a little bit, you know, saddened that it's not and they give you notes and you just think, you know, I first you have to process all the all the feelings and all the logistics around what how you're going to kind of reframe the work according to their notes, but in the end I'm so so happy with how it wound up as a result of their edits for sure.

[SPEAKER_10]: I always allocate myself a few days after I get editorial notes to sit in the corner and matter darkly about all kinds of things when I'm like, you know, it's a pity you couldn't recognize my brilliance because this is clearly excellent.

[SPEAKER_10]: blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and then I go through my period of maturing darkly and then I'm like, okay, how do we fix this and how do I apply everything they've said because of course they write and so I've learnt this about myself and so I always give myself their cushioning period and I think each writer must learn about themselves, you know, how open they are to it how much time it takes to stew or to really saturate before they can move on.

[SPEAKER_10]: and that's where something interesting. [SPEAKER_10]: So before we move on to the book itself, I'm just going to read the flap copy here for our listeners. [SPEAKER_10]: Sparks fly between a lively, debut author and a grumpy publicist on book tour in the sizzling romcom [SPEAKER_10]: from a fresh new voice in contemporary romance. [SPEAKER_10]: Despite her popular podcast and sold out speaking events, Anna, Medellian, Stofields, like she has to prove herself.

[SPEAKER_10]: To her family, who can't believe she quit med school, to build an influence a career, and to literary snubs who decry her busy self-help book. [SPEAKER_10]: happily who upcoming book tour is the perfect chance to show the world just have brighter star can shine. [SPEAKER_10]: That is until her beloved publicist resigns the night before the plane is set to take off and announcing that her replacement is none other than Ryan bleeping crox.

[SPEAKER_10]: Ryan specialises in high-brow important books. [SPEAKER_10]: and his permit scale in every interaction with Anna makes one thing clear. [SPEAKER_10]: He does not get her book, or her. [SPEAKER_10]: He's the last person who should be promoting a work, the last person she should be stuck with for two weeks, and the last person who should look that damn good in business casual.

[SPEAKER_10]: As a travel from city to city, however, and as assumptions about Ryan take new shape, a decidedly more appealing shape. [SPEAKER_10]: Soon, the growing attraction starts to feel like a ticking time bomb, [SPEAKER_10]: But crossing that line could derail each of the careers faster than you can say, conflict of interest. [SPEAKER_10]: And they both have bigger dreams at stake than the best cellarless.

[SPEAKER_10]: So something I want to ask because we get so many questions, especially about like romcoms and romances in terms of what are the musts. [SPEAKER_10]: I've had questions like I've been told that they have to be a meet-cute within the first five pages. [SPEAKER_10]: We have to see the romantic lead within the first three pages. [SPEAKER_10]: Can it take a chapter? [SPEAKER_10]: Can it take this long?

[SPEAKER_10]: I mean, for you, what are the myths that you are seeing in Rome comes these days in terms of people's attention span? [SPEAKER_10]: Do they have to have the meet-cutes? [SPEAKER_10]: You know, what is your advice with all of this? [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, I'm a big proponent of fast pacing, just generally I think that that you're never going to lose on like making sure that your pacing is swift and people are reading romance for the romance.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I personally feel like the sooner you can get them on the page together the better, but I've read many [SPEAKER_03]: excellent romances where it takes a chapter to chapters for them to meet each other or to come onto the page together. [SPEAKER_03]: I've even read romances where it's like many chapters before they are on the same page together.

[SPEAKER_03]: Certainly when it's a dual POV, you can sort of stretch that out more [SPEAKER_03]: make sure to get them on the page together in the first chapter. [SPEAKER_03]: That was just a personal thing I wanted to make sure that they were on page as much as possible together. [SPEAKER_03]: I feel like that's the best way to sort of build tension right from the get go and you know tension and conflict are. [SPEAKER_03]: key in a really compelling romance novel.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I wanted to, yeah, make sure that it was as quick as possible. [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think there's a hard and fast rule. [SPEAKER_03]: I think that, yeah, people's attention spans are, you know, decreasing my guess as we, as we move forward and, and people are reading in high volumes, which means that they have [SPEAKER_03]: a lot of choice and they're happy to, I'm also a big proponent of DNFing books if you're not into it, don't read it.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, life is short, there's a lot of books to read. [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, if you if you want to really capture people's attention right up front, get them on the page together, show the tension, show people why they're reading this book from in the first place.

[SPEAKER_10]: I could see you had a lot of fun with the grumpy sort of sunshine trope, the force proximity, etc. [SPEAKER_10]: Can you speak about tropes and how there are readers who become fans of a particular trope and who actually as soon as they hear that tropes being written will be loyal not just to the author but to that trope and how you as the author decide, okay, how many tropes are enough which ones

[SPEAKER_10]: can you twist so that it doesn't feel like it's the re-go agitation of the same thing? [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, tropes are really, they seem to be more and more foregrounded in romance marketing, certainly in the last several years. [SPEAKER_03]: They've always been a thing, it's not a new thing, but I feel like people now when they pitch books or when they talk about their books or when they, you know, give the log line, often tropes are kind of,

[SPEAKER_03]: included or or the whole thing I guess in terms of fishing the book because I do feel like a lot of romance readers are coming to romance for comfort for escape for that joyful experience that we get from this genre and a tropic kind of like a promise you're making to a reader you know like if you like this then you are going to enjoy. [SPEAKER_03]: this book. [SPEAKER_03]: If you like forced proximity, there's forced proximity in here for you.

[SPEAKER_03]: Come let me take you on this journey of forced proximity. [SPEAKER_03]: You know, it's a it's kind of a [SPEAKER_03]: a promise from the author to the reader. [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that there's a lot to be said about that for this genre in particular, because it is such a comfort genre for a lot of people. [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that it's nice to sort of have that entry point for readers.

[SPEAKER_03]: In terms of making it fresh, I mean, I have read any number of forest proximity and books. [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that often it can be, [SPEAKER_03]: authors can treat it so differently every single time, but certainly that promise is still there. [SPEAKER_03]: The core of what workforce proximity gives me as a reader in terms of my experience.

[SPEAKER_03]: That tension that that delicious feeling of like they're going to be on the page together a lot and there's going to be a lot of really nice tension between them. [SPEAKER_03]: that is always being delivered no matter how the execution is happening. [SPEAKER_03]: And it's the same with a lot of different tropes. [SPEAKER_03]: Like, you know, I really love the fake relationship, tropes, for example.

[SPEAKER_03]: And there's always a different set up, you know, it's never, it's never the same. [SPEAKER_03]: It's an author is really doing the work and they, almost always are, they're going to make it fresh and delicious every time. [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, so besides those sort of rules about where they should be on opening pages and that you do need these certain tropes in romcums, besides that is there anything that like the romcum or the should be doing.

[SPEAKER_10]: I know that there's so much debate about whether romcums can [SPEAKER_10]: have a sort of non-happy ending and romance all those are like no it's happy ever after or happy for now those are the two things and I've seen other people try and argue with that and go no it can still be romance even if it doesn't have that what you'll take on that. [SPEAKER_03]: 100% happy ending. [SPEAKER_03]: Every romance novel has to have a happy ending.

[SPEAKER_03]: There's just no debate about that in my mind. [SPEAKER_03]: It's not just rum comes, but any romance. [SPEAKER_03]: You know, the romance genre is, that's another promise that we're making to readers. [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I feel like just like with tropes, how a trop is a promise. [SPEAKER_03]: A romance novel, if it's being marketed as a romance novel, it's promising. [SPEAKER_03]: Everything's going to be okay in the end.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, maybe not [SPEAKER_03]: forever, like you said, a happy for now certainly is acceptable, but there does have to be a happy ending. [SPEAKER_03]: That is the promise. [SPEAKER_10]: because that is a comfort that brings people to the Roman genre, right? [SPEAKER_10]: It's like if they want to read about all other terrible things happening in the world and whatever go to another genre but like romance is is your woman fuzzy blanket.

[SPEAKER_10]: It is the thing that you want to wrap around your shoulders to make you feel better about the world and just to really have that comfort. [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, the happy of after gives you, no matter what happens in the book, no matter how many obstacles are thrown at them. [SPEAKER_10]: No matter how much after the come, if you know you can get to this part where you have some certainty in the world that has very little certainty. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, exactly.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I was going to say that one of the reasons that we as romance authors are able to explore certain themes and [SPEAKER_03]: we are going to make it okay in the end, you know, it's kind of a safe space for readers to experience those maybe more challenging ideas because they aren't going to be left hanging at the end. [SPEAKER_03]: In the end, everything is going to be okay.

[SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, no matter what trials the characters go through, no matter what conflicts arise, or no matter what difficult themes are explored, [SPEAKER_03]: You know, they're going to be happy together and you're going to be happy and satisfied. [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_10]: And what I love counterbalance with that warm fuzzy and that certainty is the social commentary that I'm seeing romance authors bring to their books these days so that it's not just that warm and fuzzy.

[SPEAKER_10]: So in your book we've got a second generation or many an immigrant. [SPEAKER_10]: She has so many expectations placed on her and then this very strange relationship with her mother [SPEAKER_10]: for you know the last choices she's made and again that's something that an immigrant would really understand children of immigrants would not understand and so you tackled that really well in the book as well. [SPEAKER_10]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah I I had wanted to explore that theme the themes and experiences I guess that are that relate to second generation children of immigrants in a way that I guess can [SPEAKER_03]: for people who aren't necessarily second generation children of immigrants, just people who feel that they have expectations placed on them, you know, that are different or people who sort of live a foot into worlds kind of existence. [SPEAKER_03]: You know, you're playing one role in this.

[SPEAKER_03]: arena of your life, another role in another arena of your life. [SPEAKER_03]: I think a lot of people can relate to that, whether or not they are children of immigrants. [SPEAKER_03]: And so yeah, I was hoping to sort of make that a more universal experience, but through the lens of a very personal second gen experience. [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, so the people who, you know, there's those people who are going to be.

[SPEAKER_10]: Like this character has experienced that people are condescending of the genre she writes because, you know, it's not serious and the same way a lot of romance authors get that it's like, well, it's fluff it's not serious. [SPEAKER_10]: But again, like I say. [SPEAKER_10]: having that joy and that comfort in the world is something I think we all desperately need right now.

[SPEAKER_10]: And that social commentary that is coming through is things that I've never thought about before and I'll sit and go, hmm, that's really interesting, you know, and it's good to show that that character who is falling in love is not doing so in a vacuum.

[SPEAKER_10]: You know, there is their career, there is, they've got family issues, they've got childhood wounds, they've got all of these things that factor into this moment when they are falling in love and you display that so brilliantly. [SPEAKER_10]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_10]: I'm glad that it appealed to you. [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, so let's talk a bit about cast of secondary characters.

[SPEAKER_10]: in rom coms because oh my goodness I loved her cousin I loved like just just all of the people and they add like a B plot or a bit of levity on the side it's nothing too much but we always need those secondary characters this [SPEAKER_10]: actually in rom-com. [SPEAKER_10]: So for you, the challenge is always to make a secondary character really interesting but not so interesting that they're elbowing the main character of the page.

[SPEAKER_10]: Did you ever find when you were writing them that you were like, okay, you need to take a step back. [SPEAKER_10]: This isn't your story. [SPEAKER_10]: No, we have. [SPEAKER_03]: My protagonist is such a dynamo that she cannot be outshone, but she also gives so much credit to other people as well, you know, she's that's right. [SPEAKER_10]: She's she's not like a narcissist who's like, it's all about me, even when she gets compliments and stuff.

[SPEAKER_10]: She's like, it's thanks to this person who thinks to this person as well. [SPEAKER_03]: That's one of my favorite qualities in a person is when we give credit where credit is due. [SPEAKER_03]: She is the sparkle and the spotlight is on her.

[SPEAKER_03]: But even when people are in that kind of a position and they still have credit to their team, to the people who make it possible for them, to the people who bring them sunshine when they're struggling, I think that's a really telling trait in people who are good in their core.

[SPEAKER_03]: And Anna can come across a little bit, [SPEAKER_03]: Intense and too much and I felt like that would be like her center of good is the fact that she is, she is very grateful for the people in her life. [SPEAKER_03]: She is, you know, humbled by her cousin. [SPEAKER_03]: She is, yeah, she feels very, very much like she owes a lot to the people around her.

[SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, I didn't think that she could be out shown for sure by by Marl her cousin or the rest of her team who's around for because they are kind of more subdued characters, but I did love writing those secondary characters. [SPEAKER_03]: I think Marl is one of my favorite.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, characters of all because she is just so she does ground Anna when she needs it and she gives her, you know, she gives her kind of tough love which she needs it and she's just she's just a more steady even killed kind of character and I think that she harkens a lot to Ryan her love interest and that's probably a large part of what appeals to Anna about about Ryan in the first place is the fact that he is sort of that port in her.

[SPEAKER_10]: wild storm yeah yeah I love it and you know you've done a good job when the reader falls in a video main character and wants to be best-range with your main character but also wants to be best-range with the secondary character so there you go okay I think we've got a time for one last question so let's talk about the love scenes in romcoms like the spiciness level opened or closed

[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, so I love spicy scenes of that is like one of my very favorite things about romance novels. [SPEAKER_03]: It's not that I won't read a closed door romance and very much enjoy it. [SPEAKER_03]: It's just that I really gravitate to open door, but you can probably tell from my book.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I think that the key to a really strong love scene is when [SPEAKER_03]: First of all, when there's tension, when it builds to it, rather than it's just like randomly kind of thrown in in the middle of the story and second of all that it moves the character journeys forward. [SPEAKER_03]: It shouldn't just be kind of gratuitous extraneous sex, but it should be meaningful to their growth arcs and to their relationship arc and they should end.

[SPEAKER_03]: the spicy scene in a different place than they started it. [SPEAKER_03]: So I tried to, you know, pull that off with the spicy scenes in my book and make sure that they were telling of where their relationship was going, you know, whether that's good or bad, you know, my main character has commitment issues and not that they were necessarily committed, but, you know, she, she's going into them in a different mindset thinking this is just going to be casual and fun and easy peasy.

[SPEAKER_03]: We're going to, you know, [SPEAKER_03]: go back to regularly scheduled programming after this and whoops, you know, there's more feeling there than she expected. [SPEAKER_03]: So that's sort of, I think that that fulfills the character growth that I want to see from a spicy scene, the relationship, the pushing forward of the relationship arc as well. [SPEAKER_03]: So that would be my suggestions for people writing spicy scenes as to [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_10]: And it also reveals so much about character because how you make love, you know what I'm saying? [SPEAKER_10]: Like the way you approach somebody sexually, the way you are in bed, how giving you are, how withholding your all of these things can tell you a lot about who their character is. [SPEAKER_10]: And and I think that's so important as well. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think it's a very good context in which to show characters of their most honest,

[SPEAKER_03]: and vulnerable and like yeah it's stripping away all of those pretenses and you can't help it be very vulnerable in that situation so a lot of the time you know what they say during a sex scene is the most honest they ever are together and I feel like that's a really compelling thing about spicy scenes as well is that we get to see and they get to see a side of each other that they otherwise don't you know they always have guards up and that's part of what makes

[SPEAKER_03]: attention in a romance really great is you know that sort of subtext in dialogue and and that type of thing makes it so juicy and delicious to keep turning the pages but then in that in those spicy scenes when they're really letting their guards down you you see you haven't eaten behind the curtain [SPEAKER_10]: Yeah, now I love it. [SPEAKER_10]: Okay, we're at the end of our time. [SPEAKER_10]: I don't know how that happened.

[SPEAKER_10]: I'm holding up the book to cover for our supporters. [SPEAKER_10]: We will link to it on our bookshop.org affiliate page. [SPEAKER_10]: Get the book. [SPEAKER_10]: They support a lovely independent bookstore and support the podcast at the same time. [SPEAKER_10]: Emily, we wish you much luck with this and yeah, hope to have you back for the second book.

[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you so much Bianca, it was so great to see you and to chat and I'm I've long been a fan of the podcast so also thank you so much for this podcast and it's such a great service to writers. [SPEAKER_03]: I've been listening for a long time and just really appreciate you. [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for that. [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, hello everybody and welcome to our comps segment. [SPEAKER_12]: I'm Emily summer from East city book shop in Washington, DC.

[SPEAKER_12]: I am without Bianca today because right as we were scheduled to record earlier today, I got to call for my send school and I had to go pick him up at school because he was sick. [SPEAKER_12]: So I am recording on my own now. [SPEAKER_12]: So thanks to everybody for their flexibility and thanks for listening now on to our cops with no further ado. [SPEAKER_09]: Hi Emily, fellow DCR here, and I love E-City Book Shop.

[SPEAKER_09]: I'm hoping you can help with some crumbs from my women's fiction work. [SPEAKER_09]: When a hurricane consumes a long-dairy body, you move the bishop a lonely, middle-aged woman returns to the Jersey Shore hometown she ran from 26 years ago. [SPEAKER_09]: She must reunite with her estranged mother and former best friends to move on from her past and save someone she loves before losing them for good.

[SPEAKER_09]: My novel features a messy main character who struggles to tone and move on after loss, as in blue sisters by Coco Miller's, and centers her on the relationships and secrets of a small beach community similar to Elin Hill the brand's and in ticket novels. [SPEAKER_09]: It's dual timeline present day in the summer of 2000 or the mystery throughout. [SPEAKER_09]: The best comparison I can think of for the timeline nostalgia and future female friendships is the movie now and then.

[SPEAKER_09]: but darker, more modern and for an older audience. [SPEAKER_09]: If you have any ideas, I would be super grateful. [SPEAKER_09]: Thanks so much. [SPEAKER_12]: For our first one, hello, hello to my fellow Washingtonian. [SPEAKER_12]: And thank you so much for the East City shout out. [SPEAKER_12]: It always makes me very happy when people say to me when they're in the store that they listen to the podcast. [SPEAKER_12]: So please say hello the next time you're in.

[SPEAKER_12]: I hear Jersey Shore, and I immediately think about two really great books. [SPEAKER_12]: of the last few years. [SPEAKER_12]: One is the shore by Katie Rundee, which is a wonderful Jersey shore family story. [SPEAKER_12]: I think it could work. [SPEAKER_12]: It definitely has the women's fiction vibe. [SPEAKER_12]: I sort of bristle at that label. [SPEAKER_12]: Although I do find it useful because people know what you mean. [SPEAKER_12]: But it's a book for anybody.

[SPEAKER_12]: It's a great story. [SPEAKER_12]: It is a main character sort of figuring out getting over grief and figuring out family and has a wonderful sense of setting and a nostalgic tone. [SPEAKER_12]: There's a lot of great music in there, which I really appreciate as a music lover. [SPEAKER_12]: The more recent one is welcome home Caroline Klein by Courtney Price, that's got a young woman returning back to the Jersey Shore, neither of these.

[SPEAKER_12]: I think have the older woman, a strange meant, you know, the plot isn't exactly the same. [SPEAKER_12]: But I think that the vibes and the audience might be the same. [SPEAKER_12]: I also really like your blue sister's comp. [SPEAKER_12]: I think that's just the right size and resenancy for an effective comp. [SPEAKER_12]: And I love the mention of now and then that speaks directly to me.

[SPEAKER_12]: And I know what you're going for, even though I know you say it's darker and for an older audience, which is me now. [SPEAKER_12]: So I love what you've mentioned, and I would add the sure by Katie Rundee and welcome home Caroline Klein. [SPEAKER_08]: Hi there. [SPEAKER_08]: I am super excited to be asking this comp question. [SPEAKER_08]: I am looking for recent comps that are in the genre bending literary speculative thriller area.

[SPEAKER_08]: Combs that balance literary interiority was speculative or conspiracy adjacent thriller elements. [SPEAKER_08]: particularly projects engaging with government experimentation, ultra-consciousness, and family legacy. [SPEAKER_08]: The premise is that the novel explores motherhood set against the protagonist's childhood as the first trainee and what would later become her father's CIA psychics by program.

[SPEAKER_08]: Inherited family legacy collides with real declassified CIA experiments into consciousness, [SPEAKER_08]: remote viewing and time space perception. [SPEAKER_08]: The story blends psychological suspense with speculative elements, examining how power, secrecy, and inherited trauma echo across generations. [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, for this second one, I'm showing my age because I thought right away about the old classic book and movie The Manchurian Candidate.

[SPEAKER_12]: I know that's not right. [SPEAKER_12]: It's too big. [SPEAKER_12]: It's too old. [SPEAKER_12]: All the things. [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, anything with Frank Sinatra and it is too old and too big. [SPEAKER_12]: But I did think of mentoring in candidate, which I think is a compliment to your pitch because that's the class I could still really good movie.

[SPEAKER_12]: I don't know that I ever read the book, but I watched the movie probably 25 years ago and I remember thinking at the time, wow, this holds up. [SPEAKER_12]: So maybe it's still well today for things that are more timely, more appropriate for your inquiry. [SPEAKER_12]: I think last month I mentioned Noah Hawley and Rob Hart.

[SPEAKER_12]: And I will throw those out there again, because I think they are two fantastic writers when you're talking about a blend of literary fiction, speculative fiction, and thriller elements, especially with like government conspiracy and government experiments, a really excellent psychological suspense with that speculative bend from both of them. [SPEAKER_12]: So I would look at their books and see which ones feel the most appropriate.

[SPEAKER_12]: in inquiries like this because I think that she is such a wonderful and unique writer of very literary speculative novels. [SPEAKER_12]: So she is not on the sort of conspiracy theory experimentation, classified experiments. [SPEAKER_12]: That's not her work, but the literary speculative thriller absolutely. [SPEAKER_12]: So I would suggest those authors. [SPEAKER_11]: One leaky girl is an upmarket caper that takes place during the 24 hours of Mardi Gras in New Orleans.

[SPEAKER_11]: When the storm soaked burglary of a multi-million dollar art collection collides with an identity theft heist gone wrong, Tracy, a young stripper and new mother, is pulled into a citywide chase involving her violent ex, a human trafficker, and a former teacher forced into crime to survive.

[SPEAKER_11]: After Tracy escapes with Tom, a rich chef carrying the wrong bag, choices hardened into consequences and collisions turn fatal, forcing Tracy to decide what, in a city built on stolen history, deserves to be saved.

[SPEAKER_11]: One lucky girl shares the New Orleans setting of Quarter to Midnight by Karen Rose and full exposure by Thien Kim Lam, but it's neither a romance nor a thriller, swamp story by Dave Barry is also a [SPEAKER_11]: The stories that seem most similar are movies, like last year's Oscar winner Annora, thanks in advance for your help. [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, our third this up market caper sounds very fun. [SPEAKER_12]: I love this idea.

[SPEAKER_12]: It makes me remember my first very fun trip to Marty Gra in the mid 90s. [SPEAKER_12]: If you're doing the math. [SPEAKER_12]: I was a teenager then. [SPEAKER_12]: That is a story for another time when best told over cocktails, but I will say my best friend noran. [SPEAKER_12]: I still discuss it finally on a very regular basis. [SPEAKER_12]: My first thought for a comp for your query letter is murder bimbo by Rebecca Novak.

[SPEAKER_12]: I think it's an obvious comp because that book just came out. [SPEAKER_12]: It's getting a lot of buzz and it's about a sex worker turn assassin. [SPEAKER_12]: Tonally, I think it's probably more satire than anything else and probably more satire and more politically driven than yours. [SPEAKER_12]: It is not a caper, but it was really interesting. [SPEAKER_12]: The blurb on the cover is by I think it's from Catherine Lacy and she calls it a gone girl for the Luigi Manjee any age.

[SPEAKER_12]: That's a very interesting blur right there and I will, I will suggest that to everybody who likes the this idea of a sex worker getting revenge or or getting what she's do and what other people are do. [SPEAKER_12]: I also thought about a favorite of mine real easy by Marie Raikowski, which is a serial killer mystery set in a strip club is excellent and it treats the strippers and the strip club with a lot of respect and dignity just a really good book.

[SPEAKER_12]: It's a more straightforward thriller. [SPEAKER_12]: I think the news is, but again, it's excellent. [SPEAKER_12]: Nick Stone has written more YA than adult, but her recent mystery boom town is also a mystery with a stripper as a main character, but again, I think it's more thriller than what you're looking for.

[SPEAKER_12]: So for something that would capture the upmarket paper, the really fun part of what your book sounds like, maybe the most wonderful crime of the year by Ali Carter, [SPEAKER_12]: That is an East City book shop favorite. [SPEAKER_12]: A lot of my colleagues loved it, including my boss, Laurie, and that's it's really outside of her wheelhouse. [SPEAKER_12]: So I knew and Laurie said she enjoyed it, too, that it was definitely a winner.

[SPEAKER_12]: It might be just the right up market keeper for you to mention it's both the romance and [SPEAKER_12]: a really fun, high-seat book. [SPEAKER_12]: So it might get both of the aspects of your book that you're looking for. [SPEAKER_12]: I also really like the mention of a Nora because I can't think of anything else like a Nora that's out there. [SPEAKER_12]: I think that brings a really vivid picture to what you're doing. [SPEAKER_12]: So good luck.

[SPEAKER_00]: Hi Bianca and Emily, I am looking for Comps for my cozy YA mystery entitled Hidden June. [SPEAKER_00]: The story follows June Wiley, a lonely homeschooled 16-year-old in an isolated New York town as she uncovers a dark family secret. [SPEAKER_00]: while navigating her first relationship, which she must keep hidden from her controlling mother, and the sudden death of her one and only friend, she becomes convinced that her parents aren't who they claim to be.

[SPEAKER_00]: With only a quiet contained family and almost non-existent social circle, June must ask herself who can she actually trust? [SPEAKER_00]: The novel covers topics like friendship, teenage angst, disabilities, grief, and complicated family dynamics. [SPEAKER_00]: I haven't yet found a good comp. [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's similar to a good girl's guide to murder, but that's obviously pretty big and my story is definitely more lighthearted.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'd love to hear any recommendations you might have. [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_12]: Hi, I always recommend a good girl's guide to murder, so I totally see where you're coming from. [SPEAKER_12]: When people mention something like a good girl's guide to murder, or they want something along the vein of Holly Jackson, but cozier, more lighthearted, my recommendation is always the agathas by Liz Lawson and Kathleen Glasgow.

[SPEAKER_12]: So I think that one could really work here. [SPEAKER_12]: It's definitely lighter and cozier when I sell it to people in the store. [SPEAKER_12]: I recommended it as a real Veronica Mars [SPEAKER_12]: It's got that kind of snappiness and it's just a real pleasure to read. [SPEAKER_12]: They also wrote a very good sequel to the agathas called the night in question. [SPEAKER_12]: So in my opinion, either of those might be good.

[SPEAKER_12]: They're not as dark as Holly Jackson or like a Marine Johnson or Karen McManus, but they are for similar readers. [SPEAKER_12]: And I think they might work here for your cozy YA mystery. [SPEAKER_07]: I am seeking comps from my upmarket commercial novel. [SPEAKER_07]: In 1880s, Southeast Asia, three childhood friends reunite after a decade in which their lives have gone in very different directions.

[SPEAKER_07]: Lady Violet is a botanist adventurer, Charlie, a successful London trader, and Jack, a disillude rogue. [SPEAKER_07]: When Violet gets infected with a mind-destroying leech and Charlie's company comes under attack, the friends work together to save Violet's sanity and Charlie's life's work, but every intervention makes the situation worse. [SPEAKER_07]: In the end is a problem-shared, really a problem-traveled.

[SPEAKER_07]: It addresses themes of the nature of personal freedom, and friendship with deeply imperfect people, and has mild speculative fiction notes in the [SPEAKER_07]: but it's old and very big. [SPEAKER_07]: I'm drawing a blank on other books that balance social comedy and upmarket writing in a historical setting. [SPEAKER_07]: Thank you for this invaluable service.

[SPEAKER_12]: Okay, for number five here, my first thoughts are probably, again, like the mentoring candidate, two literary, two old and two big, but those are euphoria by Lily King and the signature of all things by Elizabeth Gilbert. [SPEAKER_12]: So two authors who are probably [SPEAKER_12]: not useful cops because they're they're just big marquee names and both of those are older books of theirs, but even if they don't work for cops, they are both.

[SPEAKER_12]: excellent and I highly, highly recommend them Elizabeth Gilbert's non-fiction. [SPEAKER_12]: I think can be quite polarizing and controversial, but she is a marvelous fiction writer. [SPEAKER_12]: I mean, I've read her the memoirs also, but her novel, the signature of all things, I never thought I could care about someone studying moss, like it's just fantastic. [SPEAKER_12]: And I read you Fourier by Lily King after reading

[SPEAKER_12]: I had read writers and lovers, I think I've read three times now and I thought okay now it's time for me to read her historical fiction which is just as good as her contemporary fiction no surprise there and maybe these are not too literary since Jonathan strange and Mr. Norrell has the right tone but again probably too old and too big but I stand by them as excellent recommendations for anybody who wants great historical fiction for social comedy.

[SPEAKER_12]: and more upmarket historical, maybe check out India Holton, her first book or at least her first book that made me aware of her is called the Westeria Society of Lady Scoundrels. [SPEAKER_12]: And I think it is a little zaneer and more fantastical than what you're describing.

[SPEAKER_12]: But since there are light speculative elements to yours and you mentioned the social comedy I would take a look and she has others to the ornithologists field guide to love is another that might work so maybe one of hers could be a good match I don't know sometimes I'm just going on vibe here and I just get an intuition and it's just a guess. [SPEAKER_12]: just a good guess. [SPEAKER_12]: So that's my intuition gut guess here. [SPEAKER_12]: We'll see if it works.

[SPEAKER_12]: But India Holden's books are very well-loved and often recommended in our shop. [SPEAKER_06]: Good evening, I'm looking for a comp help from my novel titled, Virginia Mochi's Masquerade Ball. [SPEAKER_06]: It's a blended genre story, a rom-com shell with a mystery center.

[SPEAKER_06]: Intended audience refer to us who, like, found family and friendship stories, and a rom-com with a happy ending of a nine major character with dialogue, [SPEAKER_06]: Baderators tell me it feels like a potential book club book. [SPEAKER_06]: People say they're hardestful after reading it. [SPEAKER_06]: Also, the protagonist barely gets to kiss anyone, but there is talk of sex and smoth and profanity. [SPEAKER_06]: Some afraid cozy may not be an appropriate comp to it.

[SPEAKER_06]: Thinking the story is like, Scooby-Doo trying to stop oceans eight. [SPEAKER_06]: I think Jesse's suit on to a maybe a comp, but I'm not sure. [SPEAKER_06]: Please help, and thank you very much. [SPEAKER_12]: OK, I love a rom-com show with a mystery center, [SPEAKER_12]: and friendship stories. [SPEAKER_12]: So, and I love a book that makes my heart feel full after reading it. [SPEAKER_12]: I do think I need more plot to be able to give you much useful advice though.

[SPEAKER_12]: I do like the mention of Jesse Sotanto for a book that has a Scooby-Doo meets Ocean's eight feel. [SPEAKER_12]: And Elizabeth Little wrote a book a few years ago called Dear Daughter, that I think is probably at this point too old to be useful, but at the time that I read it, I thought of Scooby-Doo and I compared it to Scooby-Doo, [SPEAKER_12]: In the best possible way, I meant it as a huge compliment because it was just so much fun.

[SPEAKER_12]: It was just goofy, but great, great fun, depending on your plot and the age of your characters, another that could work is meddling kids by Edgar Cantaro. [SPEAKER_12]: That's got a real Scooby-Doo Stranger Things vibe that is very fun and is a friendship story, but I don't know without more about the plot, the actual plot or the characters, I am mostly guessing.

[SPEAKER_12]: So maybe describe this on the podcast Instagram somewhere and see if people can crowdsource some good suggestions for you. [SPEAKER_12]: You know, there's a really smart audience of listeners out there. [SPEAKER_12]: and they've got a lot of great ideas. [SPEAKER_12]: As you can tell, when people come to the podcast with their own great comp ideas in this segment, which I so appreciate. [SPEAKER_05]: Hello, Emily and Bianca.

[SPEAKER_05]: This is Coach Nora and Coach Doug, and I would love your input on our business how to book, cocktail coaching. [SPEAKER_05]: It's a step-by-step guide to overcoming professional isolation by building a mutual coaching relationship with a trusted colleague over drinks. [SPEAKER_05]: And that refers to Anne Helen Peterson's book can't even. [SPEAKER_05]: How millennials became the burnout generation.

[SPEAKER_05]: One comp that brings in the coaching aspect with a twist is coaching outdoors by Leslie Roberts. [SPEAKER_05]: There are plenty of business how two books for the entrepreneur, but they rarely address the need for human connection and none of them combines business with the catalyst of cocktails. [SPEAKER_05]: There are cocktail books that focus on business entertaining like professional drinking by Jim Schleckser. [SPEAKER_05]: But that's not quite what we're doing here.

[SPEAKER_05]: We sure appreciate if you have any other Comps for us. [SPEAKER_12]: Hello, Coach Nora and Coach Doug. [SPEAKER_12]: I love this idea and it's so interesting [SPEAKER_12]: I don't think I've had a voicemail with a business, how to book like this, certainly not one that blends cocktails and coaching. [SPEAKER_12]: I really like the Madman meets can't even five. [SPEAKER_12]: I think that is a smart.

[SPEAKER_12]: pitch because that gives me sort of a feel for it and I love and Helen Peterson. [SPEAKER_12]: I'm a big fan of hers. [SPEAKER_12]: I pay for her sub-stack because I think she's so smart. [SPEAKER_12]: So I like that. [SPEAKER_12]: That kind of gives me an idea and maybe that would work for an agent too. [SPEAKER_12]: Business books are tough. [SPEAKER_12]: They're tough for me, particularly DC is not a business town. [SPEAKER_12]: We are obviously a government town.

[SPEAKER_12]: So we don't have a huge business section. [SPEAKER_12]: It's outside of my area of expertise. [SPEAKER_12]: But like I said, I love and Helen Peterson. [SPEAKER_12]: So I like what you've [SPEAKER_12]: I don't know about a lot of coaching books specifically, but the mix of cocktails with it makes me think that your book is more fun than your usual business book. [SPEAKER_12]: Certainly it sounds more fun to me.

[SPEAKER_12]: So I would consider something, even if it's not subject-wise exactly the same, I consider something like the financial feminist by Tori Dunlop. [SPEAKER_12]: That is a book about personal finance and money [SPEAKER_12]: but it appeals to millennial and younger readers and it's not dry. [SPEAKER_12]: It is sold very well for us because she has such a wonderful conversational tone and is just really down to earth.

[SPEAKER_12]: If that's the audience and the tone that you're looking for, I think that could be a really useful comp. [SPEAKER_12]: I would also look at a book that [SPEAKER_12]: is a big seller for us, and I think it is industry-wide. [SPEAKER_12]: It's called unreasonable hospitality by Will Guadara. [SPEAKER_12]: So again, it's not a book about coaching. [SPEAKER_12]: It's not about cocktails, but it is a book that is probably in the same section that has had a very wide readership.

[SPEAKER_12]: So in that book, it takes the restaurant industry as a lens through which you can achieve success in any field. [SPEAKER_12]: decisions and how to make that impact your business and really take everything up a notch. [SPEAKER_12]: My husband's firm. [SPEAKER_12]: Everybody they're read it recently, even though they have nothing to do with restaurants.

[SPEAKER_12]: But I think just looking at very approachable accessible business, how to's and self health books with that lens that have a really wide audience. [SPEAKER_12]: I think that's a good idea because I think that might be that's the kind of audience you want just as wide as possible.

[SPEAKER_12]: So I would look at things that are a little further a field than just the coaching that might have that kind of fun, accessible, readership, like financial feminist and unreasonable hospitality. [SPEAKER_04]: Hi Emily, I love some ideas from my dual POV, second chance romance with his historical twist. [SPEAKER_04]: Reluctant literary travel host Augusta Divasti is on a tour of England where she discovers Cameron and Pages, who are a French novel by Jean-Jacques Legaiser.

[SPEAKER_04]: But many of the original words are in Creole and Crossed-Out, drawn by the chance to reconnect with her past historian career, and explore the Gare's possible ties to her own Haitian heritage. [SPEAKER_04]: She retraces Legais' literary career, only to encounter her former love-hues, and she [SPEAKER_04]: Despite the longstanding order from Hughes family to keep his distance from the devasties, he's apologizes for how he left.

[SPEAKER_04]: He soon shattered by the lies that powerful art patrons in this family spread to keep him in a Guest to a part, but once it gets to learn to his family's connection to the Lookers, she didn't use fight their growing dangerous attraction to each other. [SPEAKER_04]: They decided to allow themselves to secretly work together to track down the rest of the manuscript, we'll help them uncover Jean-Jacques' true legacy and with it a possible future for them.

[SPEAKER_04]: My story contains the literary mystery of the story she left behind, but a set in present-day [SPEAKER_04]: any help would be so greatly appreciated. [SPEAKER_12]: Okay, my first instinct for your book here is Good Dirt by Charmaine Wilkerson. [SPEAKER_12]: She burst onto the scene with Black Cake, which was loved by lots of people and was made into, I think, a Netflix movie or show, a question mark, was definitely adapted.

[SPEAKER_12]: I think Good Dirt is even better than Black Cake. [SPEAKER_12]: It also has a Caribbean angle, it is about [SPEAKER_12]: and just in very, very literary, well-written story of what happened to this family and piecing it together. [SPEAKER_12]: I think that that might be for the same audience, which is great, because that one had a very big audience and is still selling for us. [SPEAKER_12]: I also think you could look at Village Weaver by Miriam J. [SPEAKER_12]: A. Chaunzi.

[SPEAKER_12]: She is a Haitian, [SPEAKER_12]: I think a Haitian American writer of literary fiction and she's wonderful, absolutely wonderful. [SPEAKER_12]: Now neither of these books are romances and I know that you said yours is a second chance romance but the rest of it, the rest of what you describe sounds pretty literary so I think maybe one of these would work. [SPEAKER_12]: And for romance specific comps, I also think that's something that the the listening crowd here could help us with.

[SPEAKER_12]: So that's that's me shoving it off onto other people for assistance and advice once again. [SPEAKER_12]: Thank you all for listening, especially when it's just me talking to myself, although I guess I'm also talking to all of you, it feels like I'm talking to myself in the computer. [SPEAKER_12]: Thank you for sending in your pitches. [SPEAKER_12]: Thank you for asking for this comp help. [SPEAKER_12]: and it's always a pleasure to be here so I'll see you next time.

[SPEAKER_12]: Thanks everybody. [SPEAKER_10]: And that's it for today's episode. [SPEAKER_10]: I hope you'll join us for next week's show. [SPEAKER_10]: In the meantime, keep at it. [SPEAKER_10]: Remember, it just takes one yes.