[SPEAKER_02]: there and welcome to our show. [SPEAKER_02]: The shit no one tells you about writing. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm best selling author Bianca Marie, and I'm joined by CC Lira of Wendy Sherman Associates and Carly Waters of PS Literary. [SPEAKER_03]: One, welcome back to another books with excitement. [SPEAKER_03]: As per usual, we are diving straight in. [SPEAKER_03]: Callie, can you please kick us off with your query?
[SPEAKER_00]: Dear Carly and CC, thank you for hosting such an insightful podcast for emerging authors like myself, as someone with a background in scientific and technical writing, I found your discussions invaluable in learning how the fiction of publishing world works from structuring a strong query to creating characters that truly resonate on the page. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm seeking representation for a body at rest. [SPEAKER_00]: A historical mystery completed ninety-four thousand words.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm pleased to share with the first five pages of the manuscript to query below is three hundred and four words. [SPEAKER_00]: It's nineteen forty-five and doctor Robert Franklin, a physicist, falsely accused of espionage and ousted from the Manhattan Project, arrives at Cornell desperate to start a new.
[SPEAKER_00]: Haunted by his role in the creation of the atomic bomb in the recent death of his wife, Franklin struggles to find purpose in a scientific work, but when a student appears in his office with news of a roommate suspicious death, and a sensitive technical document bearing his name, he's drawn into a murder investigation that threatens both his career in the University's future.
[SPEAKER_00]: The body of Ruth Warden, daughter of the silent film Pioneer Theodore Warden, is found beneath a frozen gorge. [SPEAKER_00]: And her death is quickly passed off as an accident, but William Marshall, if it goes long serving police chief believes otherwise. [SPEAKER_00]: As Marshall investigates Ruth's death in his final case before retirement, evidence is discovered from Franklin's office leading to Franklin's arrest.
[SPEAKER_00]: release but under surveillance Franklin teams up with Freeman Dyson, a brilliant young British mathematician to uncover how Cornell's involvement in nuclear research intersects with long buried secrets of Ithaca's silent film history. [SPEAKER_00]: Told through alternating perspectives between Robert Franklin and William Marshall, a body at rest blends academic politics, Cold War paranoia, and long buried secrets from Ithaca's silent film past.
[SPEAKER_00]: inspired by real postwar events at Cornell, the novel appeal to readers of Joseph Canon's The Good German, Donna Tars Secret History, and Louise Penny's The Nature of the Beast. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm an associate professor of mechanical and aerospace engineering at the University of Michigan with a PhD from Cornell. [SPEAKER_00]: I published over sixty peer review papers in scientific journals and widely used textbook on fluid mechanics.
[SPEAKER_00]: A long-term reader of mystery in noir, I drew on both mac and epic background and my years of Cornell to write a body at rest. [SPEAKER_00]: My debut novel. [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for your consideration sincerely, Jesse Kappel Trato. [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you, Kali. [SPEAKER_03]: Okay. [SPEAKER_03]: So they gave us the word, can they, which is so cool. [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you so much. [SPEAKER_03]: What was your take on? [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, ready.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm just going to start at the top like usual. [SPEAKER_00]: So the title sounds a little bit like nonfiction to me. [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, there's that book that's extremely popular called The Body Keeps the Score. [SPEAKER_00]: And that's been on the best of those like twenty years. [SPEAKER_00]: So it's kind of reminds me of that like a body at rest. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm kind of like, oh, what am I going to learn about?
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know productivity or something like that. [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know if we maybe need to [SPEAKER_00]: Think about a different title, it might be worthwhile. [SPEAKER_00]: So general kind of thoughts on the subject matter. [SPEAKER_00]: So I think this is all very interesting. [SPEAKER_00]: I recently worked on a Cold War project with my client Jane Healey. [SPEAKER_00]: You guys have heard on the show.
[SPEAKER_00]: She was on the show just a couple weeks ago talking about her Cold War novel, the woman of Arlington Hall. [SPEAKER_00]: So I think this is something that's very topical, always timely, very interesting, obviously with the Espenage piece, and all of that sort of thing. [SPEAKER_00]: I guess what I'm failing to understand is how this connects with the silent film history.
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, another very interesting world, but I don't see [SPEAKER_00]: the connection really between these two things. [SPEAKER_00]: And again, it could come through much stronger in the actual book. [SPEAKER_00]: It just doesn't come together the query letter, but I definitely want to see the connection to get more excited about this project. [SPEAKER_00]: I guess I was just feeling like these were two separate worlds. [SPEAKER_00]: And I had no idea how they're going to connect.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's kind of like what we read a pitch letter. [SPEAKER_00]: about two separate characters, kind of like this one where they have two separate worlds. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, why are we reading booklets and people? [SPEAKER_00]: What's this plot that's bringing these two people together? [SPEAKER_00]: That's kind of an example here where, again, there are two separate people, but they do actually connect with the mystery.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just have no idea what any of this has to do with the silent film history. [SPEAKER_00]: And again, it's a very interesting history, so I just don't know why we're not delving a bit deeper into it. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if it's a case of the writers not wanting to [SPEAKER_00]: Tell us too much, you know, one of those, those cases of people keeping things a bit too close to the chest here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's what the author, Jesse is doing, or they just felt like maybe they spent too much word count on everything else, and then they didn't have any word count left to get into the sound. [SPEAKER_00]: Film history, I'm speculating at this point, but those are some of the things that are kind of running through my head. [SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk about the cops. [SPEAKER_00]: So none of these are within the past three to five years.
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, so it makes me think, [SPEAKER_00]: is this person so focused on finding the exact plot comp or this exact something of, you know, vibe comp that they're having trouble thinking about what is its contemporary cohort. [SPEAKER_00]: That's kind of what's coming up for me. [SPEAKER_00]: You know, Donna Tarr, Louise Penny, obviously iconic authors. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not familiar with Joseph Cannon, but I did look at up it and this was an older title as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think a little more research needs to be done into what are the contemporaries for this title. [SPEAKER_00]: because I just don't think we're there. [SPEAKER_00]: But the bio is great. [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously you have an incredible breadth of research and technical skills and you understand this world and Cornell as well very deeply. [SPEAKER_00]: So I appreciate it all of that backstory because that's my take. [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, Collie.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, CC handing it over to you. [SPEAKER_01]: So I started reading this and I thought to myself, what a fantastic first plot paragraph because we get the story set up, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Like we get the fact that he was [SPEAKER_01]: accused of espionage, but it was a false accusation and he's haunted by that. [SPEAKER_01]: He's also haunted by the fact that he helped create the atomic bomb. [SPEAKER_01]: That's very compelling. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's all done in one sentence.
[SPEAKER_01]: So Kudos to the author. [SPEAKER_01]: And then we have a really compelling inciting incident, compelling story setup, compelling inciting incident, the death, and then a really compelling escalation because he is arrested. [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, because he's arrested, he needs to solve this murder, where else he could potentially be arrested again, because there's a mention of him being released, but I'm assuming that's on bail. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't actually know.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I guess my point is, you've done this great job of really focusing in and zooming in on the plot points, really showing us the domino's tipping over effect. [SPEAKER_01]: But then you stop.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then we have a line that reads, [SPEAKER_01]: which is essentially the last line of the second plot paragraph, Franklin teams up with, I'm Dyson, a brilliant young British mathematician to uncover how Cornell's involvement in nuclear research intersects with long buried secrets of Ithaca's silent film history.
[SPEAKER_01]: And to piggyback on, on Carly's great note, [SPEAKER_01]: Not only what does the silent film history have to do with the nuclear research program, but also what does that have to do with the murder? [SPEAKER_01]: I think that what you did is you zoomed out. [SPEAKER_01]: And by the way, sometimes zooming out can be great, but I think you zoomed out too much. [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe Zoom out less.
[SPEAKER_01]: After he is released and he has to find out what actually happened in terms of the death. [SPEAKER_01]: What suspects does he have? [SPEAKER_01]: What obstacles does he face as he's investigating these specific suspects? [SPEAKER_01]: Is there a ticking time date? [SPEAKER_01]: So for example, perhaps a trial date, if he doesn't uncover the truth by the trial date, he could be convicted like something like that, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So I just think that this is a classic example of author [SPEAKER_01]: Starting off really strong and then zooming out too much and this happens a lot by the way right like we review lots of query letters there are a few common mistakes when it comes to the plot paragraph that a lot of you guys do it's coming from a great place it's coming from a place of knowing the major themes in your story and I appreciate that
[SPEAKER_01]: But you can save that for later and for now, I would delete that line and I would just focus on the next complication and stop right before the climax. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what the climax to your story is. [SPEAKER_01]: This is one of those situations where I kind of wish I could ask you, but whatever that is, stop right before that. [SPEAKER_01]: I will also add that I thought it was really cool that you shared a little bit about your professional background.
[SPEAKER_01]: and how evident it is that it's going to inform your story. [SPEAKER_01]: So that's always really promising. [SPEAKER_01]: As an agent, I get really excited when I hear someone say, you know, my character is a librarian. [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm also a librarian or I have this background. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's not needed by any means. [SPEAKER_01]: Like it's totally fine for you just to have researched a different profession. [SPEAKER_01]: But it does excite me.
[SPEAKER_01]: It does make me go, huh? [SPEAKER_01]: I bet I'm going to learn a lot about this in a way that's not like on the nose. [SPEAKER_01]: I bet this is going to be really subtle and authentic and interesting. [SPEAKER_01]: So congratulations on that, too. [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you, CC.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, just for our listeners, listen out for our interview, my interview with Joe Mori, he wrote Langees Money and our discussion where I came into the interview fully expecting her to be a botanist because she had written this botanist so well and she said that she can't even keep her indoor plants alive. [SPEAKER_03]: She doesn't even know how to water them properly. [SPEAKER_03]: So research goes a long way, everybody, but yeah, it is great when authors really know they stop.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, Khalil, will you give us an overview of what's in those opening pages? [SPEAKER_00]: We start with something called a prologue Friday, December, fourteenth, nineteen, forty-five, and Ithaca, New York. [SPEAKER_00]: We are in the chief William Marshall's point of view. [SPEAKER_00]: It is third, but we're kind of in his world as opposed to these scientists world. [SPEAKER_00]: So right away, it is basically a dead body situation, which we know from the query letter.
[SPEAKER_00]: They found the girl they're down in the gorge. [SPEAKER_00]: They're kind of investigating the situation. [SPEAKER_00]: They're checking out, you know, the surroundings, how did it happen? [SPEAKER_00]: What are people's theories who found her running through all of that? [SPEAKER_00]: One of the detectives feels pretty strongly like myths and accidents. [SPEAKER_00]: She just fell.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then by the end of the prologue, our protagonist, Chief William Marshall, is kind of like, something's not right here. [SPEAKER_00]: It's her footwear that doesn't match with the situation. [SPEAKER_00]: And it starts to think that maybe it wasn't an accident. [SPEAKER_00]: And that is where we end. [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, prologue. [SPEAKER_03]: It's like saying, I'm so sorry. [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, what did you think, Collie? [SPEAKER_03]: Did the block do what it was meant to do?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it was interesting to me because so the query letter starts with Dr. Robert Franklin. [SPEAKER_00]: And then the second paragraph, you know, we get into the, well, commercial character. [SPEAKER_00]: So I kind of went into the pages thinking that we were going to start with the physicist and then move into the detective. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I was just, again, my expectations based on how the query letter was written.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it surprised me a little bit that we were starting with the murder. [SPEAKER_00]: But again, it was called a prologue. [SPEAKER_00]: And so I'll give like a little bit of grace here. [SPEAKER_00]: I think this was a really well-written section. [SPEAKER_00]: I felt very like a very atmospheric. [SPEAKER_00]: I felt like I was there. [SPEAKER_00]: I'll read you guys a little bit of the opening.
[SPEAKER_00]: They found her just after sunset sprawled at the base of Van Natus Dam, where six-mile creek runs wild. [SPEAKER_00]: She lay face up, inches from the water, the stillness of death, stark against the rush of the current. [SPEAKER_00]: So like there's some really just like great atmospheric work that's done here. [SPEAKER_00]: I felt like I was there.
[SPEAKER_00]: I felt like the detectives were pretty realistic in terms of how I imagined detectives in nineteen forty five might be one of the things that definitely frustrated me was the [SPEAKER_00]: the back and forth between the detectives of like, is it an accident? [SPEAKER_00]: Is it not an accident? [SPEAKER_00]: The fact that right away there were like, it's obviously an accident. [SPEAKER_00]: The fact that they would be like, why was this woman wandering?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I think they thought maybe she had some drinks and kind of like wandered away and to a gorge. [SPEAKER_00]: And then it wasn't until the end of the prologue that they were like, she's wearing platform shoes that is not the right footwear for this event. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, I just would have liked a little bit more kind of internal tension from our kind of hero. [SPEAKER_00]: So that it just made a little bit more sense to like what he was thinking about.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_00]: I just I was at the end of the sample and I was I wrote truly no one has another theory like that one has another theory. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know to me like again, where's the internal work of the detective really thinking hard about this situation?
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think maybe we leaned a little bit too much on like the atmospheric side and not enough of the interiority of how it detected what actually think [SPEAKER_00]: in the situation also we know it's his essentially last case so then is he like I want to go on a high if like I want to solve this thing or is he like I'm ready to phone this in like my wife wants to hop on a cruise to the Mediterranean I got to get this done that type of thing I don't know I just
[SPEAKER_00]: I was just a bit surprised with the level of focus and attention to detail that that was just one of the things that I thought was, I don't know, a little bit missing. [SPEAKER_00]: I have some more notes in the margins for our sub-stack supporters, and obviously the author, some thoughts that I had about his thought process and potentially some work that we could do there. [SPEAKER_00]: But overall, it was really well written. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I was in the scene.
[SPEAKER_00]: I felt like I was there. [SPEAKER_00]: I felt like we were true to the genre and I thought, overall, it was good. [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you, Colin. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you're prologue networks. [SPEAKER_03]: So let's hand it across to the Queen of Interior to see how she felt about the ingenuity. [SPEAKER_03]: See. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so this was really well written. [SPEAKER_01]: This was really well written. [SPEAKER_01]: I think the author should be very proud.
[SPEAKER_01]: The writing's really polished. [SPEAKER_01]: The scene work was very clear. [SPEAKER_01]: I knew who's head we were in. [SPEAKER_01]: I knew what movements were happening. [SPEAKER_01]: And again, really strong writing. [SPEAKER_01]: I do think it's starting in the right place. [SPEAKER_01]: I do think that the prologue works here because it's establishing a mystery and it's establishing mood. [SPEAKER_01]: and a good prologue does these two things.
[SPEAKER_01]: However, the prologue needs work. [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm not saying scrap the prologue, I am saying like we've got to work on the prologue. [SPEAKER_01]: It's essentially the same notes as Carly's. [SPEAKER_01]: I'll just zoom in a little bit more and perhaps share ideas on how you can achieve that. [SPEAKER_01]: So the first idea I have is notice how we are in the chief's head, right? [SPEAKER_01]: And he has two officers who work for him.
[SPEAKER_01]: He thinks about these officers in the exact same way. [SPEAKER_01]: They are almost interchangeable. [SPEAKER_01]: He doesn't think of one officer in a way that's different from the way he thinks of the other officer. [SPEAKER_01]: And that is neither believable nor intelligent to the story because you want contrast. [SPEAKER_01]: You want different characters to serve different purposes.
[SPEAKER_01]: So perhaps, you know, he could have more patients with one versus the other because one of them, you know, has whatever, for whatever reason deserves more patients. [SPEAKER_01]: This you have favorites. [SPEAKER_01]: Like these are all things you can explore. [SPEAKER_01]: Right now, his external treatment of them and his internal references to them are the same. [SPEAKER_01]: There's something that I like to call the compassionate to critical spectrum.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's an interiority technique by which the protagonist reveals whether they are thinking about someone compassionately or critically. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's a spectrum. [SPEAKER_01]: No one is ever on the far extremes of the spectrum unless they're like a truly heinous villain all the time, right? [SPEAKER_01]: But for example, so for example, we have Officer Doyle say, cause of death is that she was stupid enough to wander out here this time of year.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's dialogue, that's something that the non-POV character is saying. [SPEAKER_01]: How does the POV character, the chief, react to this? [SPEAKER_01]: We have no reaction right now, like there's no interiority. [SPEAKER_01]: So his interiority could reveal where he falls on the critical to compassion and spectrum regarding what Officer Doyle says. [SPEAKER_01]: Does he think that that's an okay thing to say? [SPEAKER_01]: Is it typical of Doyle to say that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Has he reprimanded Doyle for saying that in the past? [SPEAKER_01]: Did he used to say that when he was young and maybe now he's learned that you can't say these types of things that every victim perhaps deserves a bit more dignity? [SPEAKER_01]: Or is he like, yep, that was stupid kids or stupid. [SPEAKER_01]: He's assuming she's a college student? [SPEAKER_01]: That's established. [SPEAKER_01]: So maybe he's like, yep, all college students are like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no right answer to this. [SPEAKER_01]: You as the author will know where your protagonist falls on the compassionate to critical spectrum. [SPEAKER_01]: But it's really important to show that and it's really important to have diversity in your story when it comes to this spectrum. [SPEAKER_01]: Another idea I had is we do learn about his retirement because he thinks about the retirement letter that's sitting in his desk.
[SPEAKER_01]: But we learn about that basically on the last page. [SPEAKER_01]: I think that in page one or two we should plan to cure yaw city seat about that. [SPEAKER_01]: He could maybe think a juicy thought about how [SPEAKER_01]: pretty soon, those two are gonna have to find for themselves. [SPEAKER_01]: And you can find a way to shape that line so that it makes the reader go, wait, what? [SPEAKER_01]: Why?
[SPEAKER_01]: And then when we get the reference to the letter, we'll go, oh, that's why. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's a very small curiosity scene. [SPEAKER_01]: As you can see, it's not bombastic, but if you plant these seeds before revealing story forward information on the protagonist, in this case the fact that he's going to retire, you can really elevate your story. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna say this. [SPEAKER_01]: There's a clear mention to her outfit.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is in the chief's interiority. [SPEAKER_01]: He says like most in Ithaca she was thin and fair skinned, but her tailored wool skirt and fur trimmed coat were no match for an Ithaca winter. [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe it's just me, but there is no way someone is noticing the fur trimmed coat and not also looking at the shoes, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Like the fact that we wait till the end of the scene to get, oh no, he saw the shoes, the shoes aren't right.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's a little bit like what McCarlie was getting to, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Like if you're watching us on YouTube, she's nodding, it's just not plausible. [SPEAKER_01]: You, in my opinion, you, the author, you wanted to have a doom, doom, at the end. [SPEAKER_01]: But that's, that's not landing. [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe her feet can be covered, right? [SPEAKER_01]: And maybe they can like uncover her feet or something.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I don't know, maybe one of the officers can trip and like accidentally uncover her feet. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what you're gonna figure this part out, but like unless her feet are covered, it's just not plausible. [SPEAKER_01]: It's just not believable. [SPEAKER_01]: So, [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, a big picture note, definitely agree that this needs more interiority right now. [SPEAKER_01]: It's really well written, but it's closer to a well written screenplay.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then there's also the plausibility issue. [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, those are my notes. [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you so much, CC. [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, before we move to CC's query letter, let's hear from our sponsors. [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, CC will you please read us your query? [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. [SPEAKER_01]: Dear Egypt, I'm thrilled to present beneath the waves of the Labyrinth Sea, a ninety-seven-thousand word epic fantasy with adult crossover potential.
[SPEAKER_01]: Emphasizing a dark atmosphere and complex world building, this standalone with trilogy potential combines the twisted elemental magic system from blood air, with the highest plot to multi-POV and secret mongering found family from a tempest of teeth. [SPEAKER_01]: and the epic action sequences and adventures from the pirates of the Caribbean films. [SPEAKER_01]: Four criminals, four wishes, one artifact.
[SPEAKER_01]: After a diving accident leaves Vespers' brother, Comotos, in their skyless seaside city, she struggles to care for him by scavenging and selling underwater treasures. [SPEAKER_01]: She never expects to find a compass filled with forbidden dangerous power. [SPEAKER_01]: But when Alexander, a nobleman, claims that the compass leads to an artifact that can grant a person's deepest desire, he makes an offer she can't refuse.
[SPEAKER_01]: Find it and help pay her enough to fund her brother's care. [SPEAKER_01]: Joining Alexander, as he recruits an enslaved warlock, a pirate she betrayed, and a smuggler she once loved, she's forced to survive the most dangerous sea in the world, as well as her companions. [SPEAKER_01]: When they're told that a trader lurks among them with the intent to sabotage their expedition, Vesper must decide if saving her brother is more important than the other's lives.
[SPEAKER_01]: Everyone wants the artifact for themselves, but obtaining it comes at a steep price, abandoning each other. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a neurodivergent author and this manuscript was shortlisted for the twenty twenty five rev pit mentorship program. [SPEAKER_01]: The novel is based on my father's experiences as a free diver, scuba diver, and professional commercial diver alongside his retired career as a boat swing. [SPEAKER_01]: Boat swing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's boat swing retired career as a boat swing. [SPEAKER_01]: He helped edit this narrative for authenticity. [SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate your consideration. [SPEAKER_01]: The full manuscript is available upon request. [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you so much, CC. [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, can you give us the word cap there and then you're taken. [SPEAKER_01]: So this one came in at around three hundred words. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I have a lot of thoughts.
[SPEAKER_01]: So did the author at any point mean to say this was YA? [SPEAKER_01]: Because there's a line that reads with adult crossover potential, but I didn't see a reference to YA before. [SPEAKER_01]: So maybe maybe that just is a typo that's missing. [SPEAKER_01]: So perhaps perhaps add that if that is indeed the intention. [SPEAKER_01]: I think it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: I really like to the first paragraph, like you have the diving accident, which establishes a vulnerable she needs to protect, that is an excellent storytelling hack. [SPEAKER_01]: The motivation behind the quest is specific and relatable. [SPEAKER_01]: It's larger than herself. [SPEAKER_01]: The goal is super crystal clear. [SPEAKER_01]: Like you did a great job with the first paragraph.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the second paragraph that made me confused, because it starts with joining Alexander. [SPEAKER_01]: So first paragraph establishes that Alexander recruits her. [SPEAKER_01]: But then the second paragraph establishes that she's joining him. [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm thinking to myself, why does he need her? [SPEAKER_01]: Like, why does Alexander need Vesper? [SPEAKER_01]: I don't get it. [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe I don't have to get it, which is okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, it's not something that would make me go, oh, I can't read this quote letter, not at all. [SPEAKER_01]: But like, I was confused. [SPEAKER_01]: I thought like, she'd go on a quest. [SPEAKER_01]: to bring back what Alexander needed. [SPEAKER_01]: The framing of the, I guess, the twist is a little passive. [SPEAKER_01]: Right now it reads, when they're told, a trader lurks among them. [SPEAKER_01]: Like they're told by who was it intentionally vague.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just feel like it could be a little bit more specific and also just share a little bit more agency and action on the part like who covers this. [SPEAKER_01]: What's the plot point that's happening when they uncover this revelation? [SPEAKER_01]: The line that reads, Vesper must decide if saving her brother is more important than the others' lives. [SPEAKER_01]: I've said this before in the podcast, and maybe it's just me, but I don't get it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because to me, it's like, yeah, save your brother. [SPEAKER_01]: Like I just don't get it to me. [SPEAKER_01]: It's very obvious. [SPEAKER_01]: You have all these people that you just met and then you have your brother. [SPEAKER_01]: Save your brother. [SPEAKER_01]: You clearly love your brother. [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm sure there's more to it in the story. [SPEAKER_01]: And again, I'm mindful that you're probably like, oh, I had was three hundred words.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I just, I just don't think it's working. [SPEAKER_01]: Like it just, you know, if she had like fallen love with someone in the crew, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Like, and then it was like, oh my god, my great love and my brother. [SPEAKER_01]: Like that fine. [SPEAKER_01]: But there's no reference to [SPEAKER_01]: anything. [SPEAKER_01]: She's doing it as a job to save her brother. [SPEAKER_01]: So of course, she's going to save her brother.
[SPEAKER_01]: The line that reads everyone wants the artifact for themselves, but obtaining it comes at a steep price. [SPEAKER_01]: Again, maybe it's the cynical heart, CC's deep, deep, cynical heart, but I'm going, these people don't know each other. [SPEAKER_01]: like, how is this a state price? [SPEAKER_01]: You know, these are not college friends who are working to get, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what the set up would be in order to make me believe that this is compelling, but to me, I'm going, she went on a quest with a very clear goal and her goal is still available to her and I don't see the complication here. [SPEAKER_01]: I just don't. [SPEAKER_01]: I suspect. [SPEAKER_01]: that there is actually a very clear complication that would answer all of my questions.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if this were a situation where the author were here, the author would be like, oh, no, but do you know what it is? [SPEAKER_01]: X, Y, Z, meaning saving her brother isn't that simple. [SPEAKER_01]: And actually there's a conflict of interest. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you're at the intersection of love and trust, and there's a messiness there. [SPEAKER_01]: Amazing. [SPEAKER_01]: But I don't know that based on the query letter.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I would love for you to find a way to like flesh that out and really reveal that to us. [SPEAKER_01]: Because like I said, the first paragraph, you were killing it. [SPEAKER_01]: I was like, yes, I know exactly who this protagonist is and exactly what the mission is. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm getting the vibes. [SPEAKER_01]: And then I felt like we got derailed a little bit. [SPEAKER_01]: So I would revise that. [SPEAKER_03]: And thank you for sharing. [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, CC.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, Carl, you woke up. [SPEAKER_00]: Pretty much all my notes are the same CC and I have the same page today. [SPEAKER_00]: I made a note about the missing way I mentioned I want to delve into the comps a little bit. [SPEAKER_00]: So one of the titles I wrote, I looked them up because this isn't a category that I work a lot in, but the blood air is an older title. [SPEAKER_00]: Tempest of the sea is a newer title. [SPEAKER_00]: And then there's the Pirates of the Caribbean.
[SPEAKER_00]: Obviously iconic, but quite dated. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I don't even know when the first one would have come out. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know maybe there's a revival that I've missed and haven't paid attention to. [SPEAKER_00]: So I would try to make sure that this is this up-to-date and relevant as possible. [SPEAKER_00]: Like this day and age was so many fantasy novels and romance scenes and all of this stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just can't imagine that we can't find more up-to-date comps here. [SPEAKER_00]: So just flagging that. [SPEAKER_00]: This is a great log line for criminals for wishes one art effect. [SPEAKER_00]: That's a really good log line. [SPEAKER_00]: So well done on that. [SPEAKER_00]: I think the biggest thing that's standing up to me, which is I kind of highlighted the whole body section and wrote, I'm still not seeing how they need each other.
[SPEAKER_00]: How does Alexander find her slash the compass? [SPEAKER_00]: Not seeing how the dominoes are tipping over. [SPEAKER_00]: So I just, again, not seeing how any of this is intersecting.
[SPEAKER_00]: It does feel like [SPEAKER_00]: a lot of interesting things happening and again we'll get to the pages shortly and talk about those but to me this is just a classic case of what makes fantasy so hard to pitch is that like there's a world to build there's characters introduced you know there's drama there's action how do we kind of put this together to keep cohesive way we're just not there we're just not there you know [SPEAKER_00]: It's not bad.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just I just don't think we're where we need to be to like really see the Domino stick over and really focus on how they need each other. [SPEAKER_00]: I always say, you know, why can't they just walk away? [SPEAKER_00]: Why can't they just save the brother? [SPEAKER_00]: What? [SPEAKER_00]: Like, what is it about this world and this situation, this drama, this inciting incident?
[SPEAKER_00]: That is different than every other situation this character has been in and every other book out there. [SPEAKER_00]: Right? [SPEAKER_00]: Because think about how many fan stitches we get like this where
[SPEAKER_00]: Interesting characters interesting world drama happens, but it's all about the heart and you know the connection between the characters and the why that all and so I just don't think we've like completely pinpointed those those issues really great author bio paragraphs is another example of somebody kind of pulling in some personal history kind of explaining what's interesting about the subject matter and what their personal connection to it is so well done on that
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, Collie. [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, CC, what was in those opening pages? [SPEAKER_01]: So we began with a prologue. [SPEAKER_01]: Another prologue. [SPEAKER_01]: It's not called a prologue, but it's clearly a prologue. [SPEAKER_01]: It is a sneaky prologue. [SPEAKER_01]: This is happening twenty five years ago. [SPEAKER_01]: We have a thief who is dying, but on the run, the traitor is behind him. [SPEAKER_01]: The thief is a named. [SPEAKER_01]: The traitor is a named.
[SPEAKER_01]: We are in the thief's head. [SPEAKER_01]: He knows he needs to keep running. [SPEAKER_01]: He has the artifact and he has to toss it so he does and it's not easy for him to do that but he does and then the trader calls him a fool. [SPEAKER_01]: Do you have any idea what you've done and then he smiles and said, I've made you lose and he knives himself and essentially dies by suicide falls into the ocean and the water turns red and I guess that's how the Red Sea comes to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then we have chapter one. [SPEAKER_01]: We are in Vespers point of view. [SPEAKER_01]: We'll remember from the query letter that Vespers is the protagonist. [SPEAKER_01]: She is diving. [SPEAKER_01]: She's thinking about what it's like to drown. [SPEAKER_01]: And she hasn't found anything. [SPEAKER_01]: So her luck has not been good this time. [SPEAKER_01]: She's treasure hunting. [SPEAKER_01]: She hasn't found anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then she gets like a ten minute warning, you know, ten minutes left of bottom time. [SPEAKER_01]: She has to ascend, but she is not doing it.
[SPEAKER_01]: She has the choice of like, [SPEAKER_01]: ascending and you know doing things properly or risking something that she might have spot mid the coral so she risks it but doesn't find anything and you know she keeps thinking to herself she should be back by now but there's no returning above ground without something to sell not when she only gets a few chances at diving and however she's not like she has no luck so you know we're still with her when when the pages end
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, CC, thank you. [SPEAKER_03]: What will you take on those opening pages and the prologue? [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so a lot of opinions. [SPEAKER_01]: I think the prologue needs to go. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think the prologue is working because you are intentionally, it's very clear that it's intentional with holding who this thief is. [SPEAKER_01]: And you're not just withholding his name because that part's fine, but you're also withholding really any specific interiority.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think you're doing it because you don't want to reveal spoilers, because even though this takes place in the past, probably if we find out who he is through his specific thoughts, something spoiler-y will happen. [SPEAKER_01]: That's my assumption. [SPEAKER_01]: That, however, puts us in a really tricky predicament, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Because we, we can't connect without interiority.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like the reason why readers connect is because we have access to a person's psyche. [SPEAKER_01]: Emotions are part of that, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Like how we process emotions. [SPEAKER_01]: It is a part of our interiority. [SPEAKER_01]: And so we have, we have a lot of action here. [SPEAKER_01]: I think there's a misconception in storytelling that if you start with action, readers are going to be drawn into your pages. [SPEAKER_01]: And we have plenty of action here.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have man-being chased, man-knifeing his own chest, man-dying, like man, you know, being tossing himself into the sea, the sea-changing color, action-heavy. [SPEAKER_01]: But without interiority, without that real level of depth and psychological acuity, [SPEAKER_01]: It just doesn't work, especially not for a beginning. [SPEAKER_01]: It is short, but like in my opinion, it has to go. [SPEAKER_01]: So if you want to keep it, let us in.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you're like, ah, I was on the fence anyway about the prologue. [SPEAKER_01]: I vote that the prologue goes. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so now Vespers pages. [SPEAKER_01]: I like that Vesper is treasure hunting because I think that's a good place to start. [SPEAKER_01]: It did remind me of a court of Thorne and Rose's by Sarah Jamass. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, that also begins with a protagonist hunting.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I actually, if you haven't read that book already, I really recommend that you do. [SPEAKER_01]: And if you have, please reread the first chapter because I think my notes, I think that reading that will make you understand my notes on a whole new level. [SPEAKER_01]: So here's the big picture note. [SPEAKER_01]: You've given us a lot of the mechanics of the world in a way that's so subtle and so clear yet not overwritten at all.
[SPEAKER_01]: So many writers who need to world-build [SPEAKER_01]: They're, it's so artificial and like they mean well, but they just dump so much like story-splaining into the pages. [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, please stop explaining to me how your world works. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't need the explanation. [SPEAKER_01]: I need the story. [SPEAKER_01]: And you're not doing that. [SPEAKER_01]: And that's like by far the most common problem, which this type of genre.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's amazing, you know? [SPEAKER_01]: What you're not doing, and it's the same thing that you're not doing in the prologue. [SPEAKER_01]: You're not giving us access to her psyche. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I am very clear on the scene work. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm very clear on the world. [SPEAKER_01]: Clear enough that I have a shape to it, but not so much that I'm like, I feel like you're explaining it to me. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have context on the protagonist.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll give you an example. [SPEAKER_01]: There's a line that reads, she should have been heading back by now, but there was no returning above ground without something to sell. [SPEAKER_01]: Not when she only had four hours, every four high tides to scavenge for profit. [SPEAKER_01]: That reads a super generic. [SPEAKER_01]: Why does she need something to sell specifically? [SPEAKER_01]: What is she catastrophizing specifically?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like if I only have four chances a year of finding this treasure that I need to sell and I can't find anything and I only have ten minutes to go above ground. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna be specifically catastrophizing in my mind. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna be thinking of my brother's face and his disappointment or maybe my brother trying to hide his disappointment because he's so compassionate.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe I'm gonna be thinking about the last time that I didn't have anything to sell and what I had to do. [SPEAKER_01]: something else, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Like I'm obviously not going to guess what you're protagonist is going to be thinking about, but it can't just be this can't happen. [SPEAKER_01]: What specifically is she thinking about? [SPEAKER_01]: With story forwardness, is she picturing finding something and having something to sell and what will that bring her?
[SPEAKER_01]: And the reason why I mentioned Sarah J. Masses first novel in the Court of Thorn and Rosa series is because the protagonist there when she is hunting and she spots a deer and then she spots a wolf, we see sharp specifics in her interior already. [SPEAKER_01]: about what she's going to do if she's able to kill that wolf. [SPEAKER_01]: Like she thinks about how the fur could be used for a coat for one of her sisters.
[SPEAKER_01]: She thinks about her family's face if she arrives home empty-handed. [SPEAKER_01]: She thinks about the fact that it's been, and I don't remember now, because it's been a long time since I read it, but X months since they've eaten properly. [SPEAKER_01]: The stakes are very, very clear with specificity and story forwardness, and it's not just the hunt that occupies her mind.
[SPEAKER_01]: She also thinks about her stolen moments with Isaac at the barn, or the fact that once upon a time she was into art, and she subuted in the world, but she's so hungry [SPEAKER_01]: and like depleted, that shouldn't even have that impetus anymore. [SPEAKER_01]: So I just think it's really important as a test for all storytellers listening.
[SPEAKER_01]: In your first scene, whatever is happening in front of your protagonist, their interiority should absolutely reflect that, but it should also connect and zoom out into something larger about their socio-emotional framework. [SPEAKER_01]: Whatever's happening in front of them needs to connect with something they're catastrophizing, something they're dreading, something they're hoping will happen, something they remember happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's really, really important because that's how you build a person's interiority and that's how you make a protagonist feel unique and not generic. [SPEAKER_01]: So those are my notes. [SPEAKER_01]: I hope they're helpful. [SPEAKER_01]: I really did enjoy the premise here very much. [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you, CC. [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, call me handing it across to you. [SPEAKER_00]: All right. [SPEAKER_00]: So I really liked the writing. [SPEAKER_00]: I agree.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think I could really take it or leave it with this prologue, which means that it should probably go if it's a take it or leave it situation. [SPEAKER_00]: The first line was the thief was dying, but he still ran. [SPEAKER_00]: That's a great line. [SPEAKER_00]: You know, just like, okay, why is he dying? [SPEAKER_00]: Why is he running? [SPEAKER_00]: I really love that. [SPEAKER_00]: Do I think that we need to keep the whole prologue just because I like that one line?
[SPEAKER_00]: Probably not. [SPEAKER_00]: But I think there was some really elegant writing. [SPEAKER_00]: For example, there was a line that said as a dark cloud figure raised toward him, he pressed his lips against the artifact and then tossed it at word. [SPEAKER_00]: I love that he's like it's not like, oh he kissed the artifact or kissed the compass. [SPEAKER_00]: It was like pressed his lips against the artifact.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just thought that was really elegant in a nice way of writing that. [SPEAKER_00]: In terms of investors, section, I, you know, I thought of Akatar as well, CC when you were talking about some notes for this. [SPEAKER_00]: I also just thought of Little Mermaid, you know, just like a, you know, between the two of them, that was kind of the world that I was creating in my own head.
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought it was really charming the way that you described the [SPEAKER_00]: What was lighting up the water so she could see, I'm just call some light blooms growing on the walls of each tunnel, illuminating the path, kind of like a biolumin essence, it's kind of what I'm imagining. [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know, I found it very, very charming. [SPEAKER_00]: One of the things that I think that I was confused about.
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, up to the author about how much you kind of want to get into this. [SPEAKER_00]: But I needed to know, I think, for my own sanity, what the relationship was between this world and technology. [SPEAKER_00]: Because whenever there's like a fantasy or a sci-fi element of it, I just really wasn't clear. [SPEAKER_00]: So it says right off the top. [SPEAKER_00]: It said, twenty-five years ago is how we started it. [SPEAKER_00]: But that was the prologue.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we're assuming like twenty-five years ago was when this compass slash artifact was dropped and then we're kind of in the present of whatever this fantasy world is. [SPEAKER_00]: But we talk about [SPEAKER_00]: the intercom within the diving system. [SPEAKER_00]: And yet, again, there's like bioluminescence on the walls. [SPEAKER_00]: I guess I was just trying to figure out how all of this worked.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know if we need an info dump, but I was feeling like I wasn't grounded in this world at all, which is kind of what the balance between an info dump versus feeling grounded and safe and comfortable suspending my disbelief so that I can enjoy what's happening here. [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just would have liked like a little bit more explanation about [SPEAKER_00]: How all of this world works in a very subtle way and a very built into the plot way. [SPEAKER_00]: You know, she calls it her oral nasal mask. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_00]: I was just like, okay, like, is there an oxygen tank? [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know. [SPEAKER_00]: I just couldn't really understand what she part-fished. [SPEAKER_00]: Again, little mermaid reference.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just wanted a little bit more to feel safe and comfortable grounded in the story. [SPEAKER_00]: One thing I really did like was how fast she found something. [SPEAKER_00]: So the very last line of this sample is, instead she pulled herself through the narrow gap where the coral grew and broke off several massive chunks of it to reveal a golden glittering object.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love that we found something, whether this isn't the compass, you know, the special artifact, you know, remains to be seen. [SPEAKER_00]: But I do like that she found something interesting in this first dive that we are witnessing with her as the reader. [SPEAKER_00]: So that's kind of what I liked.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then yeah, what I think maybe need some work [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, but I just want to say really quick, only add a little bit, okay, lovely author who's listening to our notes. [SPEAKER_01]: To Carly's point, yes, baked into the story, like she made that very important caveat, but just a little, okay, don't go too far. [SPEAKER_01]: It's a dosage issue and it's working. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, titrates.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so on Monday, we're going to have two all the interviews in our bonus episode. [SPEAKER_03]: One is Gloria Chow, who wrote the ex-girlfriend's murder club, which is doing extremely well at the moment. [SPEAKER_03]: And the other one is Joe Maurice Langjuice Money. [SPEAKER_03]: But I mentioned earlier and then on Thursday we have two heavy hitters again for a double up oath into the one is any hacknits and the other is Sherry Lapina.
[SPEAKER_03]: So make sure you don't miss those and we'll see you in two weeks time for another books for pubs. [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks Colleen CC. [SPEAKER_03]: Bye! [SPEAKER_02]: CC Lira is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates. [SPEAKER_02]: If you'd like to query CC, please refer to the submission guidelines at www.wshermon.com. [SPEAKER_02]: Carly Waters is a literary agent at PS Literary Agency.
[SPEAKER_02]: But a work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Colley on this podcast are solely that of her as a podcast co-host. [SPEAKER_02]: They do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS literary agency.