Mid-Life Interiors Guru & Content Creator, Joanne Hardcastle

Mid-Life Interiors Guru & Content Creator, Joanne Hardcastle

[00:00:00] Kristin: Hello, and welcome to The Second Chapter. I'm your host, Kristin Duffy. I'm so excited you're here, and I can't wait to share with you this week's brilliant guest, Joanne Hardcastle. Joanne's unexpected midlife success as an interiors guru and content creator led to, amongst other things, her appearance on Interior Design Masters, Interior Design's answer to the Great British Bake Off.

[00:00:27] Joanne's current chapter, which she's calling "the fun chapter" of her life, only happened after the ups and downs of life, love, and loss.

[00:00:36] To let you know, Joanne and I speak about her experience with miscarriage, which is an important part of her story and that of her family. But she also has so much joy and life wisdom to share.

[00:00:46] I hope you enjoy the episode.

[00:00:48] Joanne: I've been through trauma and I've suffered, but I think that's made me the person I am today, and it's given me this attitude where right, now it's time for me and now I want to have fun and enjoy myself and say yes to everything and I'm having the best time.

[00:01:04] I really am. Yeah, it took a lot of getting here to be able to do that and to enjoy my life.

[00:01:09] Kristin: Hi, Joanne. Welcome to the second chapter. Thank you for joining me.

[00:01:19] Joanne: Hi, it's really good to be here. Thank you for asking me on.

[00:01:22] Kristin: Yes, I'm really excited. I was thinking before we got started, you were design maven and my hair twin and

[00:01:29] Joanne: We are good hairstyles.

[00:01:31] Kristin: Your fringe is more freshly trimmed than mine though, so I'm feeling a little bit jealous.

[00:01:35] Joanne: Fringes are so high maintenance. And when you hit the menopause, it's even worse because they're constantly sweating. It's just hard work, but I'm committed to it now. I'm not turning back.

[00:01:48] Kristin: Yeah, it's like a signature style. And once you have it, it's really, I have two sisters that are hairstylists and they're, Oh, I don't know if I like your fringe. And I'm like, you know what? My fringes, that's my thing, so I'm not getting rid of it.

[00:02:01] Joanne: If you'd ever seen a photograph of my two daughters, my grown up daughters, we've all got the same hairstyle. So it's like clearly we're setting good trends here. If a

[00:02:09] 21 year old and a 24 year old want to keep the same hairstyle.

[00:02:13] Kristin: Yeah, exactly. Though I do have to say there's pictures of me at about five with the same hairstyle. So

[00:02:19] Joanne: Yeah,

[00:02:19] Kristin: maybe I'm a little too committed. So sometimes I ask people what would they say their chapters of their lives are obviously for the second chapter. But as I often say, we have way more than two. So I ask you a bit in advance, for some of your chapters, and I'd love to kind of go through those and chat a little bit, maybe in chronological order, we see where we go about what you consider, the real changes and chapters of your life.

[00:02:45] I know that up to age 17 was kind of the first. chapter. I mean, Obviously for most of us, that's kind of our childhood chapter, but that's when you lost your mom.

[00:02:53] Joanne: Yeah, and that's, that was the first Biggest change in my life. That's when I had to grow up and yeah the blinkers were brought off my eyes and I had to grow up. My dad disappeared. My mum died. I was all alone. So it was like, it was massive a massive part, a massive change for me.

[00:03:10] Kristin: And you said that is when you grew up. And I think a lot of us would say, that's kind of formative years, but also when we admit it later on, we weren't even close to growing up at that age. How did that influence where your life was going, I guess?

[00:03:24] Joanne: it was. I look back on it now. Hindsight is really good. I was 17. I had to grow up. I had nobody to look after me. I I was doing my A levels at school. I had to kind of get a job and look after my 14 year old brother. I look back now and it was like quite a traumatic, horrific time that we were going through.

[00:03:41] But when you're in the middle of it all, you just get on with it, don't you? And I thought I was so grown up. I wasn't. I wasn't. I was a little girl struggling to be an adult but I think it made me who I am. It made me a strong person. I think in situations like that you can choose to be a victim or a survivor.

[00:04:00] My brother didn't fare quite as well as me. I think I got my big girl pants on and thought I'm gonna make a go of this.

[00:04:06] Kristin: So having to get a job at 17, what kind of jobs were available?

[00:04:10] What did you end up doing to support yourself and your brother?

[00:04:13] Joanne: I worked in a restaurant. I was a waitress, so luckily I could bring food home. Because my dad, he... It did disappear. It turned back up like once every two weeks with a bag of food or something or once He sold all the furniture while we were out. It was just it was a horrible person so we were just kind of bumbling along trying to get along with so I did I had a job as a waitress I was doing my A levels.

[00:04:35] I couldn't go to university. I look back now and there should have been help for me. There should have been people stepping in, welfare people. Me and my brother should have gone into care, really, if anybody knew what was happening, but nobody did. And I just thought I can't go to university now.

[00:04:48] I need to look after my brother. And I ended up working in an insurance company where I stayed for 10 years. So boring and so dull. But it was like a safety net. It was something, I had a job, I had some money, and that was how I was like functioning in life. I was

[00:05:07] still a little girl,

[00:05:10] Kristin: yeah. I obviously speak to so many people who ended up in jobs that maybe weren't careers or careers that weren't really what they would have chosen. But then end up there for sometimes 10, sometimes 20, sometimes 30 years and then find, this point in their life when they're just like, what has happened?

[00:05:28] How has this lasted so long? So how did you end up leaving? Insurance, which was funny that you called a safety net because I think they'd appreciate that.

[00:05:36] Joanne: Yeah, I think they would. I had a friend, I had a really good friend, I'm still friends with him now, and he was like, what are you going to do Joanne, you need to get a job, there are some jobs going at my place. And I got a job there and it was safe and I was comfortable and it probably I was healing was a healing then I was growing up I was finding my way and then I met my husband I married to now quite early on I was 19. And we we bought a house together and I wanted a baby. He said we couldn't have a baby until we got married. I didn't want to get married. This carried on for like years and years. After seven years, I says let's get married. And I thought it would be really easy to have a baby. But that was another, like the period from 17 to 27 was like a horrific period of my life.

[00:06:23] I didn't get pregnant. I did get pregnant easily, but I lost. Six babies and it was horrific. I eventually left insurance when I had my first daughter And I never went back to work after that. So having a baby, that was the next chapter of my life.

[00:06:38] The loss was the second, the loss of my mum and losing the babies was the second chapter And then I moved on to the next chapter after I had my daughter.

[00:06:47] Kristin: I'm always interested to talk about loss, through miscarriage, because I think it's something that even now. It's such a hard thing to talk about, and rightfully so, but because we don't talk about it, I think there's still so many people that aren't aware how often it happens and how difficult it is.

[00:07:04] And I don't know if not talking about it makes it more difficult. Because it feels like a secret or, a shame that maybe if people knew, if other women knew how high the statistics were, and I think probably back then, it wasn't that long ago, but I think we were less likely to talk about it then.

[00:07:23] Joanne: Nobody talked about it. It was awful because I'm a talker and I wanted to tell everybody I was hurting and I was I didn't have these babies, but I still was a mum. I'd still experienced this plan This like you're not just losing that little 12 week old baby in your tummy. You're losing all The, your futures that you'd imagined with it, the first birthday, the first it growing up, all the plans that you make for this baby are just gone like that and it's awful.

[00:07:51] And I did want to talk about it and nobody did talk about it. People were embarrassed. Tim's family didn't talk about it. People at work that just, I'd just come back to work after another loss and I'd sit back down and get on and nobody would say anything and I was going through something huge.

[00:08:07] It was like, it was such a massive part of my life that's affected me to this day. I've got this huge hole inside of me that's never gonna go away. It's, you just grow around it, don't you? But I've got this hole where six babies were, and yeah, I wanted to talk about it. I wanted everybody to know how much I was hurting.

[00:08:24] I

[00:08:25] Kristin: Yeah, I definitely think it's something I just never want to glaze over because obviously if people don't want to talk about it, that's their prerogative, but I, it was my manager at work who said to me , said, I'm sorry, I haven't really been around or, I've been a little bit unavailable, she was really struggling and had several miscarriages and, wasn't really talking about it, but she wanted me to know. And it was only then that I started looking into it a bit more and really realized how, how prevalent it was.

[00:08:52] So I was really glad that she brought it to my attention a bit more because it made. me much more comfortable. I mean, This was, my late twenties or something, but it's made me much more comfortable now that I've had several friends who have come to me and said, I've lost my pregnancy and I feel like it's something I can talk about a lot more easily.

[00:09:10] Joanne: I reached out to, it was a charity. It was all newsletters and telephones back then. The miscarriage Association. And I did volunteer for them for a little bit as a telephone counsellor. So people who were going through it could ring up and just talk

[00:09:25] You want to talk to other people who've been through it.

[00:09:27] You want to ask them, is this normal? Is this what happens? Am I, should I be feeling like this? And Now, I will always reach out to somebody who's lost a baby. My niece recently went through it. And I, you understand it, you know what they're going through. Not many people are willing to talk about it.

[00:09:43] And you're just so scared and so alone. And because it's not, you can't read about it. People in the public are starting to talk about it more. But it's this taboo, it's still a really big taboo, isn't it?

[00:09:55] Kristin: And I'm glad you mentioned that you still have this hole, because even though you did go on to have children of your own and to have a foster child, I do think so often you hear people like, Oh, it was so sad, but now I have my babies. And that's not the story for everyone. And even When, there might be a quote unquote happier ending, it still isn't necessarily the end all be all for everyone.

[00:10:21] There is still, a sense of loss.

[00:10:23] Joanne: It's part of who me and my husband are. It's part of our relationship, our family, the girls know about that we lost babies. I don't know, would I go back and change it? It's difficult to say because I would never have had my beautiful daughters if I'd have had these other babies. It's such a, it's massive.

[00:10:40] I still can't get my head around it but it is, it's part of who I am. It's part of me.

[00:10:44] Kristin: so once you did have your first baby, obviously that was a great time. Is that kind of the next chapter?

[00:10:52] Joanne: Oh, totally. And it's the happiest time of my life. I loved being a mum. I loved when people moan about like this, oh, the school holidays, we don't know what to do. I lived for that. I just, I adored it. Spending time with them. I enjoyed the company, just the happiest time of my life. And I struggled as they grew up, as they got older.

[00:11:13] So that, that period up until they were about I suppose Lily left home when she was 18 to university. That hit me hard. But yeah, it was the happiest I've ever been. I don't, I wish I could go back and relive it because it was just, it was wonderful. It was lovely.

[00:11:27] Kristin: And I know one of the things you are, you've spoken about in your blog or written about in your blog is that you did give up work, but it wasn't to become a lady of leisure.

[00:11:37] Joanne: Yeah.

[00:11:40] Kristin: You did give up because you wanted to be a mom because then you went on and and supported a foster child as well.

[00:11:47] Joanne: Yeah. When we talk, it's funny when you talk about this hole inside, you're still trying to fill it. So I'd had my two babies. We were really lucky. My brother then I've got a genetic condition so we were really lucky to get these two girls. My brother had a baby who died and just after I had my youngest daughter and we thought we can't do this anymore.

[00:12:06] I can't do this to my health. I can't do it to my mental health. We're lucky. So we decided, we made a a decision not to have any more children, but I still wanted more children. I still had that hole. I went and worked in a school and it's in quite a deprived area and I just wanted to rescue all these children all the time and look after them.

[00:12:24] And that's how we ended up fostering. We just, I just thought there's, I've still got so much more to give. I want another baby. It didn't quite work out like that. It's a nice fairytale little image. It was a lot harder than we thought it was going to be. But yeah, we took we took in a little girl who's still with us now, nine years later.

[00:12:40] She's very much part of our family. So no, I didn't give up work to become a lady of leisure. I gave up work because I... I needed to give more to these children. My youngest daughter had special needs. My foster daughter had special needs. And I just found it impossible to combine everything. It's the story of being a mum, isn't it? The story of being a woman.

[00:12:58] I couldn't do anything 100 percent while my attention was divided. So I gave up work to look after. The two youngest girls,

[00:13:07] Kristin: And I think it's interesting that you even had to defend that.

[00:13:09] This podcast where I'm so big on talking to women who have made these amazing changes and, but there's still this sort of, you have to explain yourself if you want to be a mom, you have to explain yourself if you want to be a working mom, you have to explain yourself.

[00:13:22] So it's until we kind of find that balance. It feels like we, we still, we can't strike equality, I guess is the word I'm looking for.

[00:13:33] Joanne: I felt guilty. I am a feminist. I was brought up in the 80s. I went to an all girls school brought up by socialist teachers that told us we could do anything we wanted to do and men were evil. And I am a feminist. And I felt so guilty for giving up work, and I felt like I was setting a bad example to my daughters, that I was just a stay at home mum.

[00:13:54] And I wanted so much more. I wanted them to know I was so much more than that. I wanted them to respect me, and I felt that I wasn't giving, I wasn't, I didn't have a role that they could respect me in. I did, I felt quite lost when I gave up work. I felt like I didn't have an identity. I didn't know who I was anymore.

[00:14:13] So yeah, it was quite a struggle that period.

[00:14:16] Kristin: yeah. And I wonder how much of that, obviously that's a societal kind of pressure, but I also wonder, if you hadn't chosen to give up work, you said you couldn't give a hundred percent to being a mom. So it's can't win.

[00:14:29] Joanne: We never can, can we? We never can, it's always a struggle. It's... It's mainly us women who are picking up the pieces and trying to juggle everything and justify what we do and explain why we're doing it.

[00:14:41] I hope it's better for my daughters. I hope they don't have to have that struggle and they can be who they want to be.

[00:14:47] Kristin: Yeah. I hope so too. It feels like the struggle's been too long.

[00:14:52] Joanne: It has, but I think it is improving. I think we are improving.

[00:14:56] Kristin: Yeah. And I say that a lot because I'm an eternal optimist somewhere inside. I think it's interesting also I mentioned your blog, but you talked about, and you said to me just now that the fairy tale image of a foster child and how you're going to kind of save them and everything. But I know that wasn't as easy either.

[00:15:12] And I was really interested to read about, what a struggle it was, but that, that it was kind of perseverance and just choosing to do it a little differently than you initially anticipated.

[00:15:23] Joanne: Exactly that, I thought. Let's have another child and it'd be all like, skipping through the forest and it'd be wonderful and it wasn't. It was, that first year was so hard. It nearly broke me and Tim. I remember the first day that she came to live here, going upstairs and lying on my bed and crying.

[00:15:40] We just thought, what have we done? What have we done? I was so shocked. It was such a shock to the system. I'd had these two girls that had been grounded and surrounded by love and they were so secure and happy and well behaved. And I brought this little fireball into the house who didn't have any boundaries, who'd not had this love and nurturing.

[00:16:00] She was scared. It was really hard and it took about a year before we all found a level ground and I worried terribly if the girls would have said, my girls would have said at any point we can't do this, their needs would have always come first. I had to make sure that they were okay and they were and I think it's made them better people as well, more resilient and more caring and they've seen.

[00:16:23] Another side to life I think it's the best thing we ever did as a family, the hardest and the best thing that we ever did as a family.

[00:16:30] Kristin: pardon my ignorance, but why a long term foster or how does that work versus adopting?

[00:16:35] Joanne: Because the young person we've got is still in contact with her parents, so she still sees her parents there's a court order, so the local authority have 51 percent parental control. Mother has 49 percent parental control and then I kind of, I'm looking after her for those two people.

[00:16:53] So she still sees her mom, she still sees her dad. She wasn't put up for adoption, but she was never going to go back to her mom. It was a lot, she was, she had been taken away from, she was never going to go back to her. So she just needed a safe and secure and settled home. And we adopted for long term foster care because my youngest daughter.

[00:17:13] I didn't want to disrupt her by bringing lots of disturbed and unruly children for short term, like people coming and going all the time. I wanted it to be quite a settled. arrangement. Looking back, I don't think it was a very wise decision. It is now, but looking back, we met her about three times before we decided to take her into our family.

[00:17:33] That's crazy, isn't it? That's crazy that we were just taking a person into our family.

[00:17:39] Kristin: But then you think about it. And obviously someone who has been on the earth for several years and has formed a personality and who has had so many challenges and not felt the loving family is a different situation. But you have a kid, you don't know what you're going to get.

[00:17:55] So getting to meet her at all was

[00:17:57] Joanne: yeah, it worked out. It worked out really well. Yeah, I'm so proud of her. So proud of how far she's come.

[00:18:04] Kristin: You mentioned that it was really challenging as your daughters grew up as well. And obviously now you also have the foster child, but you, I think you even used the term mental illness or you were really struggled as your daughters left home to go to university.

[00:18:17] Joanne: because when I had my eldest daughter, every mum loves the child, every mum loves the child, but when you've gone through loss like that, it was such a, the attachment was so strong and I don't know, it was so strong and it was quite Not unnatural, it was quite, it's difficult to describe how attached I was to my eldest daughter and how I felt all her feelings.

[00:18:39] and to let her go because she had completed me, I love them all, I love them all, but this, the eldest daughter, she had completed me, she'd healed all my sadness and then I had to let her go and that, it was horrific. She moved to London, she moved about 300 miles away and I was just in a depression for three months.

[00:18:58] I couldn't do anything. It was horrible and I'd cry when she rang up She didn't want to ring me up because I was so upset on the phone, which wasn't good for me She was supposed to be going off and having this lovely life And I was so happy for her. I was so happy and I'm so proud of her but that first three months when she wanted when she left was It was horrible and I think it just brought all the unresolved feelings that I had Came out.

[00:19:25] So all that my mum's loss, the miscarriages. I think it all came out as she left home.

[00:19:31] Kristin: Was there something that you did to, get past those feelings? Was, did you have therapy or

[00:19:36] Joanne: I was a 47. I thought it was my menopause I thought this, all this feeling of doom and anxiety was my menopause. So I went to the doctors and I said, you've got to help me, it's my menopause. And she said let's deal with your anxiety first and let's get this sorted out. And she put me on medication which made me better.

[00:19:55] It made me so much better. And I started to understand why I was feeling how I was feeling and by Christmas it was bearable after three months it was bearable and now she still lives away and it just feels normal. It just feels totally normal. But yeah, I had to take medication to get over it.

[00:20:14] Kristin: somewhere along the you did an A level as mature student. Where did that fit into all of this?

[00:20:21] Joanne: That's when I left work and I would, like I was saying, I was feeling quite aimless and I didn't know who I was and the school where my daughters went to, there was an art course for mature ladies and men as well, but it was mainly ladies. And I went along and did that and I really, that was like a turning point.

[00:20:38] That was me finding that I was this creative person again, met new I did all sorts of fun things, but yeah, that was like. That was the beginning of turning me back into me.

[00:20:51] Kristin: And how did you start? Was it something that you always found space and loved to start putting your signature stamp on it? Was that kind of the turning point, taking that art class? when did you start decorating things and making them look fabulous?

[00:21:06] Joanne: Always, I've always wanted to make a nest and wanted to make a home. So from being a young girl, I decorated my bedroom. I've always been really into making my space lovely. And the thing with interiors, it was It was Instagram. I started following all these Instagrammers, the Instamums, like Mother of Daughters, Mother Pucker, people like that, and I thought they were really quite aspirational.

[00:21:29] I thought, I want to do that. And I started posting pictures with funny captions. I love writing. And people, it was fashion at first. People noticed my house in the background. So I thought, Oh, this is interesting. So I started taking photographs of my house and sharing it. More and more people got interested, more and more people joined my journey.

[00:21:49] Brands wanted to work with me. So yeah, it's through Instagram. So it's, the design's always been there, it's just, I never shared it before.

[00:21:57] Kristin: And you've said that Instagram's turned into a career for you, which I think is interesting because I don't know, I think a lot of us when I speak to my young nieces and nephews, the first thing, what do you wanna be when you grow up? And it's influencer YouTuber, and so you get this kind of impression of young people who wanna be influencers, but you're an Instagram influencer.

[00:22:16] Joanne: Content creator, let's call me a content creator.

[00:22:19] I never set out. And thought I wanted to be, I want to be an influencer because it's not that easy. It's not, people say, how do you grow your account? I don't know. It took, it's. It took years and years of hard work posting every day, engaging, reading about it, learning what would, what was going to work, learning what hashtags, talking to people.

[00:22:41] It's like the equivalent of going to university. It's not like getting a degree, but you've put all that work in behind and then you start to get the jobs coming in. So it's not something that you can just pluck out of air. It is hard work and I wouldn't say I'm an influencer, I'm a content creator, so I.

[00:22:57] Brands come to me and approach me and they ask me like who have I worked with a sofa company, they'll send me a sofa, they'll pay me to make an advert for them, but that is a lot of work. You've got to plan it, you've got to film it, you've got to edit it, you've got to get all the props, you've got to write the caption, and then you've got to post it on your Instagram.

[00:23:18] It's not just taking a picture. People think that you get free stuff, you don't. It's not just taking a picture. There's a lot of work behind it and I think there's a lot of, not shame, people look down on content creators and think that it's, we're all just doing this like easy job and we're all freeloading.

[00:23:34] And there's a lot of people doing a lot of really good work. Did you see the Cakegate scandal where somebody had written to a bakery and asked for a free cake recently? It all blew up.

[00:23:45] Kristin: I don't know if I have.

[00:23:46] Joanne: So a TV star had written to this local bakery and asked for a free cake to celebrate her 40th birthday.

[00:23:54] wrote a really good reply saying sorry, but exposure on Instagram doesn't pay the mortgage. I'm not going to give you this cake and everybody was piling on going, I don't know how these people dare do it. They want something for nothing, which is true. It's all good and well, but on the other hand, are content creators out there and sometimes brands will approach me and they'll say, Can I send you this candle and you'll produce an advert for me?

[00:24:21] I don't have a budget. It's just going to be gifted. So it's getting that level right, isn't it? And it's being transparent about it. It is my job. It's my work and I'm creating an advert. But I think people need to stop being so shady about it and be more open about it.

[00:24:36] Kristin: Yeah, on both sides, because, if you're, if it's an advertisement from you and I just think, Oh, you just love this sofa company because they make the most amazing sofas. It's good to know, this is an advertisement. But also, yeah, I don't know. Cause because I'm an actor as well, I feel like so often there's this thing about exposure, Oh, we don't have a budget for actors, but you'll have great exposure.

[00:24:57] So it's yeah, exposure doesn't pay the bills. But if it was the right project where it really was a give and take, that's something a bit different.

[00:25:06] Joanne: I It's a transaction, isn't it? It's a transaction, it's got to benefit both parts.

[00:25:11] Kristin: exactly. And I think too often people are happy to say, Oh, take this candle. It's a great exposure for you.

[00:25:17] And you're like, no, I'm doing all the work. You're sending me a candle. That's not the same thing.

[00:25:22] Joanne: No, exactly.

[00:25:24] Kristin: And I do think in a way there is something very There's something very lazy on the advertising side some of the advertising even self tapes that I get, they're like, Oh, just improv around the product. you're asking me to be an actor, but now you're also asking me to be a writer.

[00:25:40] And half the time the self tapes are, I think they want you to actually direct a commercial in your house. And this is just for the audition.

[00:25:47] Joanne: You're doing it all, you're creating it, you're getting the props and see styling it, you're taking the pictures, you're videoing it, you're editing it. You're doing the whole job and they're getting away with it. They've still got budgets, haven't they?

[00:25:59] They're just getting it done on the cheap out there, but it is, it's a new industry and I am lucky that it has turned into a career and it's led to so many opportunities. Yeah, all by accident.

[00:26:09] Kristin: So how did... You are following an interior design masters and obviously they've kind of merged together a little

[00:26:16] Joanne: Yeah,

[00:26:18] Kristin: So how did you end up on interior design masters? And for people listening who don't know about interior design masters because they're not located here, tell us a little bit about the show.

[00:26:27] Joanne: It's an interior design program and it's a competition. Ten designers come along and there's a different challenge every week and it's an elimination. Somebody gets sent home every week. Is that a good enough description, do you think? I always say it's like British bake off.

[00:26:41] It's like Bake Off for designers. With my Instagram, because I talk a lot on stories and I'm quite opinionated over the years I've been approached quite a lot by TV producers wanting me to try out for different television programs. And I just thought, my attitude is, this is the like, the fun chapter of my life.

[00:26:59] My attitude is just to say yes and see what happens and let's just have fun and see where it takes. So I've auditioned and I've done tapes for lots of different programs. And the Interior Design Masters approach, I think they approach a lot of people. They, they approach and says, would you like to apply?

[00:27:16] And I thought, why not? Why not? Let's see where it goes. And I got quite far in the process for the year before I was supposed to be on, but then it got right to the last hurdle, and they decided I was too much like a previous contestant, so they said, no, we're not going to go with you this year, will you come back next year?

[00:27:32] So the first time I applied, it was lockdown. And you have to block out 16 weeks in your diary. It was lockdown and we weren't doing, going anywhere or doing anything. It was fine by me to block out 16 weeks. But the year after they came back to me and I just thought, I want to go on holiday. I've got work to do. No, I'm not applying. I'm not applying. And they talked me into it. They talked me into applying. And I wasn't going to do it again. And my husband's Joanne, you can't turn down this opportunity. Um, I just thought let's see how far I get. Let's just see how far I get with this process.

[00:28:04] And before I knew what was happening, I was driving a van through London, ready to start filming. What am I doing? What am I doing? But it was. So much fun. I'm so glad I did it.

[00:28:15] Kristin: I was a fashion designer. I absolutely love the show. So I'm always, I've got my own like, Oh, I never would have done that.

[00:28:24] Joanne: Yeah

[00:28:26] Kristin: But I love to watch it. And again, for people who don't know, there's the head judge, Michelle, I find her a little bit scary. And then there's chatty man, Alan Carr, who makes the whole thing camp and fun. And yeah, I just, I love it. So it was really fun to watch you on it. I know one of the things they kept saying to you, or I heard them say to you, was you're more of a decorator, you're not doing design. What do you think maybe you learned from being on the show?

[00:28:51] Joanne: Oh, I learned so much because I came to it just like winging it like I do everything. I'm not a designer There were amazing designers on there. And I just thought when I saw them all oh my god, what am I doing here? there's such clever people pouring legs out of cement and sewing things and I'm just like getting on my flat pack furniture out So that first week was such a shock to me, but I looked around and I thought I've got to come back With something more next week.

[00:29:18] I've got to come back bigger and I did I came back. I did I did a lovely school room I don't know why I was on the sofa that second week because I Still think that what I used to work in a nursery school and I know that was a really practical space It was fun and it's apparently it's still standing the children are still playing in it now.

[00:29:34] So it's It stood the test of

[00:29:36] Kristin: I have wondered how long, do these things last? Do they end up saying this isn't for us and taking things down

[00:29:41] Joanne: not all of them, not all of them lasted, but my thing's still there. They have a team when we finish, a snag team, that they go around with the owners and they sort things out because we have to do things really quickly. We've got 48 hours, so sometimes there are shortcuts made. Sometimes the people don't like it.

[00:29:59] So yeah, I learned. And then she had me on the sofa again and she said. You need, I need more and that, the next week I brought so much, I made everything in that hotel room I was a bit frantic and I was a bit manic, maybe I tried to do too much, but I learned so much from all the other designers, I learned so much about me I was only in it for three weeks, but it was such a massive experience.

[00:30:21] Learning curve for me is such a massive thing for me to do.

[00:30:24] Kristin: What would you change about that hotel room, if you, looking back, now that you've had way more than 48 hours?

[00:30:31] Joanne: I love it. I love it. I wouldn't have made the lamps. The lamps will haunt me for the rest of my life. With the feathers, I would've bought some lamps. I think I tried to do, I tried to make too much. I'd made the dressing table, the bedside tables, I'd beaded on the wardrobe doors. The layout as well, because I think Jack was on.

[00:30:49] It was very clever. Me and Jack had the biggest hotel rooms. And it was really difficult because of all the doors, but he put a wall in the middle of his room and he had the bed

[00:30:56] Kristin: Oh yes,

[00:30:57] Joanne: coming up. That was so clever. He was a genius. I couldn't think like that, but maybe that's where I would have gone if I'd have had another week.

[00:31:05] If I'd have gone on to the week four, it would have been about layout and changing the shapes of the rooms. That was the next step for me, I think.

[00:31:15] Kristin: Yeah, I think that's probably where it goes from this quote unquote decorator to really the design moment. Because when I watch it and I see people, because I get all the fabrics and the colors, because obviously that was my background, but to see they decided to put a wall there,

[00:31:31] Joanne: Genius.

[00:31:32] Kristin: This shelf that I never would have considered.

[00:31:35] That's when I start getting just like, that's next level. Whoa. What has it done as far as you've come home now? Have you added a wall? Have you built a thing? Have you done the things that you weren't doing before?

[00:31:47] Joanne: Funnily enough, I'm sitting in my basement. We've lived in this house for 24 years. It's a four story Edwardian house, and we had a derelict basement before with three rooms in it that we'd always talked about renovating. And I think we did have the buildings in place before I went away.

[00:32:01] We did have the buildings in place, but I came home and I ripped up my plans like NO! It's not going to be like that. This is what I want. It's got to be multifunctional. I've got to do this. I've got to do that, and I've created I'm so proud of it, it's an amazing space. Three rooms, each room does different things, there's lots of hidden storage, and I learned all that from the show, I learned how to do that, and to make an area work and flow, so yeah I'm really proud of that.

[00:32:28] Kristin: I have a request because I watched your Instagram very quick video walking around the change, but I need to see this basement in slow motion because it was like, we have this new space. Unfortunately, I'm in a small flat, but I feel like our tastes are not dissimilar.

[00:32:43] I have a very dark navy bedroom. I like to mix in a lot of pink. As I said, we have the matching Like the color, I think, do you have a magenta or like magenta? Yeah, I would call it magenta. Hot pink wall.

[00:32:56] Joanne: No!

[00:32:57] Kristin: Where did I swear I've seen on your Instagram a hot pink wall

[00:33:00] Joanne: Yeah, like a purple. It's in, in my foster daughter's bedroom. It's like a purple y pink. I don't show it very often, so you must have had a really good look to find that, but yeah, that's like a purple y pink colour.

[00:33:11] Kristin: I'm an investigative journalist,

[00:33:12] Joanne: done!

[00:33:15] Kristin: So also, I'm really interested in your blog. I think you've not been as active on your blog, but when did that start in the whole scheme of things?

[00:33:23] Joanne: I love writing. And I felt like I had a story to tell. I don't think the blog at first was particularly related to my interiors, but I felt, it was again, somebody on Instagram had said the post was, tell me about when you became a mum or something like that. And I thought that I want to write that down.

[00:33:43] I want to write it down. And it was too big a chunk of writing to have as an Instagram post. So that's where the blog came from. I wanted to write. about the moment I became a mum and what it meant to me. And then it like, it opened it, I just wanted to carry on writing. I just needed to get my story out.

[00:33:59] So there were lots of posts about my early life. I have done some writing on it about interiors. I do keep intending to go back to it. I wrote a book before I went on the program about interiors and I'm in the middle of writing another book now, so kind of all the writing has taken over I would like to get back to it.

[00:34:16] It's just hard. It's the juggle again, isn't it? It's hard finding time for everything.

[00:34:21] Kristin: yeah. I think it's always nice to I, I think this is why probably your Instagram appeals, 'cause you mentioned your videos and then the blog appeal to me as well. 'cause it's, it just puts. Your story behind it, it puts the person behind, everything else. So you can post all the beautiful interiors in the world, but having your personality and your stamp beyond design, beyond this is me.

[00:34:45] This is the vulnerability people talk about. It does make it, it just makes for a more interesting person that you want to get to know.

[00:34:53] Joanne: Writing down what I've been through was quite therapeutic. It was quite healing to write down about the miscarriages. I wrote things in that blog about my miscarriages that I'd not told anybody else. I wrote down the names of my babies I'd never...

[00:35:09] told people that before and it's quite scary that's there in the open but it felt quite therapeutic and healing to write it and get it out, because it's not something I struggle, I will, I talk about it on a certain level, but I don't ever go very deep with people about it, because that hurts too much to go into the deep, so I'll say yes, I had miscarriages, it was awful, but I don't let myself get too vulnerable, I don't think, so writing that down.

[00:35:35] exposed how I felt going through it. I still think that there's more I could write down about, about when my mum died, but I think I need to go back a lot further and unpick a lot more before I can go through all that.

[00:35:46] Kristin: before we started recording, I was mentioning, because this is such a nice chat that sometimes I forget. well. Yeah. I forget that it goes out to, I mean, I've said things to a friend of mine who's an avid listener and he's like, Yeah, I know. You said that on the podcast. And I was just like, I thought I was doing some kind of true confession to him, one on one and realized, I've already told thousands and thousands of people.

[00:36:09] But yeah, I guess, I don't know where this question's exactly leading, but, have you ever put anything out and just gone, Oh, that was too vulnerable or, had it backfire in any particular way? Okay.

[00:36:19] Joanne: sometimes I write things and I think I second guess myself and I think, should I share it? Should I share it? I'm never, I never regret sharing things because I think it helps other people as well. I've recently been sharing I've talked about my second daughter who had learning difficulties.

[00:36:36] She's just graduated university with a first. I don't know if you've read my blog about it, but they told me that she would never go to mainstream school. She'd never talk. That was a massive, bringing her up was a huge part of my life as well. Looking after her and nurturing her. So sharing her success now that she got a first and she's moving to London to study on her own, that's something I never thought would happen.

[00:36:58] But when I was in, when I was a young mum, I'd have loved to have heard that. I'd have loved for someone to say, don't worry, keep going because it's all going to work out all right. so I think it's really important to share stories to help other people.

[00:37:12] Kristin: Yeah. And that's kind of the whole point behind this podcast as well is actually I was on Michelle Michelle's design page. And, one of the questions there's like the FAQs are you ever too old to start? a design career or something along those lines. And I thought it was an interesting question because obviously the point of this podcast is reminding people that they aren't too old that you can start again, that you can, try new things, whether it's your career or whether it's just things you do in your life that are interesting.

[00:37:42] But yeah, I think so often just hearing one person say. I tried it and sometimes I tried it. I failed. I had to do something else. And sometimes it's, I went through all of this to get there, but now I'm there. I usually know that that vulnerability or knowing, what I've been through or what my guest has been through. Or how they've gotten where they've gotten. It's not just an interesting story. It's actually something that could be helpful in a time when somebody needs it.

[00:38:09] Joanne: I think so, and I think everything that I've been through, people have been through a lot worse, but I've had I've been through trauma and I've suffered, but I think that's made me the person I am today, and it's given me this attitude where Yeah, I've done this, I've brought my children up, I've had to let them go and that was horrible, but right, now it's time for me and now I want to have fun and enjoy myself and say yes to everything and I'm having the best time.

[00:38:34] I really am. And it took, yeah, it took a lot of getting here to be able to do that and to enjoy my life.

[00:38:40] Kristin: I love to say yes. I actually thought I was being really creative one time because I was like, I'm just going to say yes to everything and I'm going to write a book and it's going to be like my year of yes or something. And then I looked, I kind of Googled that because I was just like, Oh, how, what am I going to do about it?

[00:38:53] And Shonda Rhimes had already written, I think the book is called my year of yes. Or, and I was just like, okay, I can't compete with Shonda Rhimes. Ended up still saying yes to pretty much everything and now I'm constantly drowning, but I'm

[00:39:06] learning to say no.

[00:39:07] Joanne: Too much to do, I've too much to do, but life's so short. When my... One of my eldest daughter's friends she died when she was 17. She had got cancer and that was another massive thing. So when, I'll say, when Ella died, because I think it's important to say people's names when they've died to remember them as well. That was such a massive thing. in our community, in our, in our neighborhood. And it's made me look at my daughters and think they're still here and they're still living their life and Ella didn't get that chance.

[00:39:40] And life is for living. You've got to take the chances. You've got to enjoy it. It's so short. It's so precious.

[00:39:46] Kristin: I absolutely agree. I think my WhatsApp, little thing, it's so cheesy and I don't even care. It just says ready for adventure.

[00:39:53] Joanne: Yes, I love that. I love that. I

[00:39:56] Kristin: Cause you know, who knows who's going to WhatsApp me and maybe they're going to say, Oh, I've got an adventure for you. Okay, let's do

[00:40:02] Joanne: think mine, mine would read ready for mischief because I'm always up to mischief

[00:40:06] Kristin: I

[00:40:06] like that too. So I always ask for a quote because again, I'm cheesy. They don't always have to be like inspirational quotes because I'm not always that cheesy. But did you bring a quote for me today?

[00:40:20] Joanne: I've got three. Am I allowed three?

[00:40:22] Kristin: That is greedy, but yes,

[00:40:25] Joanne: Which is my favorite one? Which is my favorite one?

[00:40:28] Kristin: you can be greedy. I don't mind. You're a maximalist.

[00:40:31] Joanne: Okay, so my first one is, and this has really helped me because I was such an angry person for a long time. Which is understandable, I was such an angry, confrontational person. And this really helped me. Would you rather be right or would you rather have peace?

[00:40:45] So I often think that and I think, you know what? Not worth it. This is not worth it. I don't need to get into this.

[00:40:53] Kristin: I'm trying to think because I just spoke with someone who I can't think if it was the same quote or very similar because it led me to say I hope this isn't one of your other quotes, but I like perfect is better than, or done is better than perfect because, or sometimes I prefer good is better than perfect because I cannot give fully up my perfectionist tendencies,

[00:41:12] Joanne: That's a

[00:41:12] Kristin: but you probably encountered that actually on

[00:41:15] Interior design masters, because it's like, it's just gotta be done.

[00:41:17] Joanne: Yeah,

[00:41:18] quick. Yeah. No, it's right. You can put things off for so long and worry about the details, but just do it. And it's back to having adventures, isn't it? And saying yes. Just dive in and do it and who knows what's going to happen. Yeah, I think good is better than perfect. I like that one.

[00:41:35] Kristin: Okay. Sorry, I interrupted. What's next?

[00:41:37] Joanne: the next one the next one is when somebody shows you who they are, believe them. So that's good because sometimes people can do something that's you think, you make excuses for them, don't you? But really, that's them telling you who they are. So it's I always. I'm very observational. If somebody does something, I'll remember that.

[00:41:56] mean, I don't hold grudges. I'm not a sulker, but I remember that

[00:42:01] they've done that, and that's what kind of person they are.

[00:42:04] Kristin: Yeah, I would say the whole forgive and forget, I can well, I've had a lot of conversations about forgiveness the last few episodes, but like I'll never quite forget.

[00:42:12] Joanne: Exactly. I always remember. I always remember. And then, my last one. Now, this is the one that I always said to my girls, and they've totally gone with it, and they're just amazing people. If you aim for the moon, you'll get the moon, but if you aim for the stars, you'll get the moon thrown in. So it's about pushing yourself further and they have, they've just, they're such wonderful girls and they're so grounded and they're so lucky and loved and they've gone out there and they've strove and they've, they're doing amazing things.

[00:42:40] So yeah, I think that's push yourself, just keep pushing yourself a little bit further.

[00:42:46] Kristin: I love that. I, oh, you get the moon

[00:42:48] thrown in.

[00:42:49] Joanne: I

[00:42:51] Kristin: I've had so much fun talking to you. Is there anything else that you want to impart on my listeners that I've missed?

[00:42:59] Joanne: think I've just had a really nice conversation. It's been really nice to delve deep and be quite flippant. It's just been a lovely conversation. Thank you. I've

[00:43:07] enjoyed

[00:43:08] Kristin: you very much. I wish you the moon and the stars and everything in

[00:43:12] Joanne: Oh, thank you.

[00:43:12] Kristin: And thank you so much for spending some time with me today.

[00:43:15] Joanne: Thank you so much. I've really enjoyed it.