Life audio. Stranger Things is Netflix's most popular TV series ever, with over one point two billion views. Why has this show been so popular? What did it get right? Why did it get wrong? What might agen Zer, my son Scotti, and agen Xer think about it? Given that this show was made for gen X and for gen Z, thought I'd bring my son on to break down me. You ready, rock and roll? Let's do it all right? So before we jump in, let's just briefly talk about what Stranger
Things is about. It starts in November nineteen eighty three, and by the way, I was about seven years old when this show is placed in and it's a group of boys who are playing dungeons and dragons at the beginning. But what happens is in this small town, these seemingly supernatural things start to take place. There's kidnappings, there's appearance of a monster. There's clearly this seemingly super natural realm
breaking through. And as we moved through five seasons, we learn more and more about this realm breaking into Hawkins, Indiana, and how the kids respond and defeat the bad guys. Anything you'd add, just in terms of quickly what this show is about. I think you actually nailed it. I think it's perfect, all right. So what I want to
know from you is, I'm really curious. It is fascinating that this show is written with two audiences in mind, a little bit like Cobra Kai, which hit my generation watching Cobra you know, watching cry to Kid as a kid, and then your generation that's new. It's kind of written for both generations. Again, one point two billion views, which is insane. Why do you think this show has been so popular?
One, I remember, I think I was in seventh grade when this show came out, and there was just something different about it. For one, it was Netflix's first Netflix branded show. Right when it came out on Netflix, people were like, what is this? Netflix is making TV shows now, so remember that. But there's also there was this mystery is horror, especially from season one, and also the kids. My generation was really able to resonate with the kids
because frankly, we were like the same age. I think they're a little bit younger in the show, but the actors' ages were about the same age that I was, So I could see myself as those kids right taking place in the eighties where you were as a kid. And I think that that really gravitated and there was just so many questions that this show brought up, and honestly, it really captivated our generation.
So do you think for your generation, Like one of the things I enjoyed is a dad was showing you some of the TV shows and movies that were meaningful to me as a kid. I remember the first time I showed you Star Wars, sitting in our bedroom, telling your mom, we're watching Star Wars. I don't know, maybe I can't remember, maybe you're eight or ten years old, whatever it was. Some of the other shows like Karate Kid, some of these shows I've shared with you. It's a
fun thing parents do with their kids. Is this show meaningful enough to you and your generation that when you have kids some day you'll want to show them this or would you not rank it quite that high? I would have.
For the first three seasons, I absolutely loved this show. The last two seasons to me, were a massive disappointment that honestly, I think I will show my kids it, but it didn't hold the gravity that the first three seasons had, and it was a really big letdown for me. But one of the reasons why I absolutely like Love Stranger Things was I think for our generation, right when you look at it, For you guys got you grew up.
You had Star Wars and original movie.
You had Indiana Jones, you had Rambo, you had Rocky, all those different movies.
Our generation doesn't have a lot of original movies.
What we have is TV shows, right, And so what we loved about Strangers Things was this is an entire original cast. A lot of the actors were also not people that we really knew about, right, Even the mom Joyce. I knew she was a big eighty star, but we didn't really know who she was, right. And all these kids came out of nowhere, and honestly, we just fell in love with them. And they're all still one of
the most famous stars to this day. All of them have millions and millions of followers, and I think they're all pretty good actors.
So you did hit on in part why this show is so popular is that it simultaneously reaches two demographics. The Duffer brothers actually had said that they were not writing this for kids, They're writing it for adults. But I think some of the language of and the dialogue appeals more to kids than it does to adults. But nonetheless it's the story of these young kids bonding together. But it also for my generation. You know, I grew up roughly around that time, so I remember hanging out
at malls. Of course, I remember all the songs that they had. I remember the dress, and they did a good job as a whole of painting what the eighties felt like leaving at home telling your parents. I remember I would just take off on my bike and I'd tell your Granmy. I was like, you know, I'll be back at dinner, and she was fine with that in a small town, you know, California, not in Indiana. So I think they found a way to reach two generations.
When you just think about shows that people are drawn to Netflix as a whole, had that and we'll get to some of our critique. But the characters are obviously lovable and likable. I mean some of the characters like Dustin, some of the characters like Steve, I thought were fantastic. There's intrigue, there's mystery. I mean that first season when you figured out what are these demo organs? It was
kind of scary. Like I remember, I wanted almost like twenty four, wanting to watch the next episode in the next episode What's gonna happen? And they did a brilliant job of just kind of unfolding the story over time, at least for the three seasons. So simply from a storytelling perspective and a character perspective, I see why the story has been so popular. It makes it makes sense to me. Okay, so let's take a minute and talk
about what do you think the show got right? And I'm curious, and after that come back to what do you think the show got wrong? So do you One of the things I try to do is when I watch films, and obviously like this one, there's plenty I disagree with, and plenty will get to the critique. But as a Christian, I want to start with common ground. I want to start with a positive and I don't want to be that rage bait taking Christian always being
critical of everything. I don't think that's charitable and I don't think it's helpful. And I do think this show got a lot of things right. So tell me as you see it what you think you tick got right.
I think one of the biggest things that got right was the characters. I think all the original characters you actually cared about. And characters that they brought on in season two and in season three, right, that were new. You actually were invested in those characters, right. I think they had such good character development throughout the seasons. The relationships, right, like you're like, Okay, Steven Dustin are now friends in season three, right that they weren't in the first season.
And all these different characters.
I think that they absolutely just captivated me, right, especially just as a younger a younger guy, right that the four main guys that were the head of the show. And honestly, I just I loved and I attached myself onto them. I could see my bits and pieces of myself in each one of those characters, especially as a kid. Right. I remember I loved when you would talk about you know, oh man, I grew up in a small town.
I remember all those little things.
Right.
That's one of the reasons why I absolutely loved this show.
So one of the things I think they one hundred percent nailed was the characters, and through at least season three, the characters that they brought on, whether it was Max, whether it was Eddie, all those different characters, I think that they killed it.
I'd be really interested to see if you already watch this as an adult having seen it as a kid, if you'll process it differently, because sometimes I go back to shows I saw as a kid and either I'm like, I can't believe I ever liked that, or I see it through a different lens. So you and I recently were talking about watching sixth Sense and that show. I loved it when it came out, am not m Night Shyamalan.
I mean, that is a brilliant, just epic film. But when you watch that as a parent, it was harrowing to me through an entirely different lens of just the horror that that young boy went through and how he's torn of like do I tell the truth or do I lie to my mom so she won't think I'm crazy and reject me. You see it through a lens different when your parent. Partly what the show did is it appeals to kids who want to be a venturous they want to fight the bad guy, they just want
to be a part of some epic journey. And also I think appeals to this rebellious spirit that kids have. And of course the last speech by Dusty at the end of season five, we didn't say this. By the way, there's gonna be some spoilers here. We should have said this at the beginning. But the season you know, the piece at the end where he just tells off the principle. It appeals to so many things with kids. But I
also watch this through the lens of a parent. I watched this going, oh, my goodness, if my son was Will who gets kidnapped and is being terrorized by this demigorgan, I view it very, very differently as a parent. I think they found a way to capture parents' fears, parents' concerns, what would interest jen xers like myself that are now looking back, but also appeal to gen z And that's not easy to do. I can only think of a handful of shows that have actually done that. Yeah, I would add to that.
I think they did a brilliant job, especially in season one with Joyce. I mean, you saw the pain that she went through when she was the only one that believed that Will was still alive. Even his brother Jonathan right was just like, Mom, he's dead. I remember that scene. It was like, Mom, he's dead, move on, come to the funeral, right, be there with me? And She's like, no, my son is still out there. So resonated with that,
But then it was also with Hopper's character. Hopper was my favorite character throughout the show because you saw the turmoil he went through and he took on Elle as a daughter because he lost his right. And so I see exactly what you're saying. I think I will watch it differently as a parent, but I do I agree with you one hundred percent. I think that they did that right as through a parent's eyes, watching Joy, watching Hopper, watching those parents. Now, I do think it is interesting,
especially some of the younger seasons. Besides the main adults, some of the other adults are like idiots almost, and they ta hate that picture to make it sound like idiots, right, Like the Wheelers, Mike's parents and the first couple seasons are like idiots. They always get it wrong. Especially Dad, He's just like there, he's an idiot. I remember there's the scene where the police are interrogating him.
He goes, don't you know that? He's like, I believe that I'd know that my son was hiding a eleven year old girl in her house. I think i'd know.
Meanwhile, she's been there the whole show, hiding in their basement, and so there's just a couple there's a couple of factors that I see with the parents that they were trying to paint them as idiots. Honestly, sometimes as a coming to age show, that's kind of like, I don't know, not fun to see, but it was just like, oh, yeah, the kids are right.
The kids are the ones that are right. How much were you emotionally attached to this show because I think you see these kids, I don't know how well they were, and I think they're of different ages, but it feels like they're ten to twelve years old roughly when this thing starts, and then you know at the end, and I think some of the actors were actually maybe in their thirties past time it ended. But the way the story paints, you know, they're eighteen years old, graduate from
high school, and we see him come to age. And I remember the time where even Will like wants them to play dungeons and dragons and he wants to hang on to his childhood, and yet they're like, we've moved past that, we don't do that anymore. And I remember kind of feeling that a little bit of like now as a parent, I'm watching this going, oh my goodness, I remember that stage with my kids growing up and leaving that. And of course I had the two of
you in college. You're both at bay All, you're young, you're younger brothers, like thirteen, So he's just he's leaving that boy of stage becoming a man. So it tapped into me remembering my own childhood, but also watching it as a parent. Now, by the time they got to the last season, We'll come to this, I had somewhat emotionally disconnected. They took so long. I don't love the way it ended, But how emotionally connected were you to some of the characters or do you let honestly just
moved on from that. Early on, I was extremely invested.
I believe in season three I was in high school and the actors and the show were in high school.
So I was extremely invested.
Right. I was like, man, this could beat me and my friends, right, like we just found some random girl in the woods, Like this could have been us, you know.
So that was super interesting to watch.
But as the seasons got later on, and honestly, there's multiple year time gaps in real life when watching it, I became less invested. I just believe that they lost the gravity of the show, and they also just lost I think where they were going. I think if you watched season one and then say you didn't watch anything in the middle, and you watched season five, you're like, how.
Did we get from point A to point B? It just doesn't make sense.
I believe honestly that season one could have been its own spin off show just in itself. Right, you just watched season one and they just were like, this is just a one off show, almost like a true detective that this is what it is, right, But they obviously decided to do more, and I believe that seasons one, two, and three were great. When you watch season four and your five, you're like, how did we get here? It was almost like there was this this could actually happen
in season one. I don't know if it was almost like a yes, there's some fantastical stuff too. Sure, it was almost like this could happen season four and five. I'm like, Okay, we're just so far gone. The preaching at us like they're just there was too there was too much going on.
But what a story has to have is internal plausibility. Right, we knew this wasn't gonna actually happen, but it felt plausible, it felt believable for the first three seasons. Is part of your argument. Okay, so I'm want to talk about the worldview behind it, but I don't want to miss what the show got right is in some ways one of the things that I appreciate about it. Maybe I'll get some criticism for this, but I like the Duffer Brothers created a It's a brilliant TV show. I don't
again love the way to end. It will come to that, but there's brilliant themes in this. There's a great some of the heroes are great. I think Hopper was a great character in this. He's kind of a father figure for a generation that's in many ways yearning for a father. I think that's a piece of what's going on. I think they got the monster was cool. Like when you learn about the Demogorgans, it's like, WHOA, this is crazy. Eleven is a fascinating character. It's like, where did these
powers come from? What's her backstory? There's so many things that just made this story intriguing and in many ways, if it weren't for the Duffer Brothers. Again, we'll get to some of our concerns and critique the conversations you and I have had. Finally showing it to your brother, I think he was twelve or thirteen when I finally talked your mom into allowing him to see part of it.
Don't watch this, Love and Casion saw this. She finally agreed like it created some good memories for us, some good conversation, and anytime somebody does that, I'm thankful for that. So I don't know if the Duffer brothers I doubt would ever see this, but if you do, I'd love to interview you. I'd love to hear the backstory. I'd love to just have a conversation about how you came up with these characters and how you wove in some of the ideas behind it. Let's have that conversation if
you happen to see it. Now, with that said, I've got to take on the worldview behind this that I haven't heard a lot of people giving. When we first started watching season one again, this is twenty sixteen, So July twenty sixteen is around the time Trump got the Republican nomination, if I'm not mistaken, and it finished December thirty, first twenty twenty five, roughly a decade this cover, So for ten years people were talking about and watching and analyzing,
think about this show. That's a pretty remarkable feat. But when it came out and we're watching the first season, I'm thinking, oh, this is a supernatural story. There's a demonic element to this. And so you have this upside down world you learn about, which clearly is like a hell type state. There's no angels in it, by the way, but there's it's a hell type state. You have the Demogorgans, and of course the demo dogs that are like demonic beans and hence the name dema Gorgan like demons. They're
playing off that. You have the mind flayer that possesses Will. Then you move forward and you have Vetna in season four, who's clearly a Satan type figure, no question about that. And then you get to season five, and I was wondering as it start, I was like, are they going to continue this what I would call kind of a
demystifying of the supernatural. And the piece in season five was they were talking about this mystical, this magical like energy field that Nancy shoots and it kind of blows up and they realize again, oh, this is not magic, it's not supernatural. There's a natural explanation for this. And when it really hit me is in kind of the
early seasons, the mentor that they go to. They don't go to a priest, they don't go to a shaman, they don't go to a pastor, they don't go to some New Age guru to figure out what's going on. They go to a scientist, mister Clark. Mister Clark, who's their teacher, who happens to be a brilliant high school teacher by the way, he's brilliant. And that told me.
I was like, oh, wait a minute. They're giving the appearance after as if this is supernatural, but they're slowly subverting it one by one and explaining things away naturalistically. So even when it came to like season four, they have like a haunted house and they have these exorcisms where their eyes roll back, their hands tweak, as we've seen in these kind of exorcist type movies. But then you learn it's not actually an exorcism, it's not actually
a haunted house. There's a scientific explanation for it. And so I actually think the worldview behind this is not supernaturalism. It's actually naturalism. Now a lot of science fiction films and TV shows will do this. By the way, not All Star Wars is science fiction but has kind of Buddhist New Age vibe to it, where everything can't be explained away materialistically. I think the worldview behind this is they're presenting certain things that we think are supernatural. We
think people are communicating with some demonic realm. We think people are really being possessed. We think houses are actually haunted, we think there's demon type beings. But really, if you probe far enough, what we learn in the last season is they're like, you know, Vekna Henry is only human. We're reminded of that, and there's actually a scientific explanation for things. So the worldview underling Stranger Things is naturalism.
I don't think it's actually supernaturalism, agree disagree anything to that challenge that what do you think one hundred percent? Agree with you that there's naturalism?
Even from season one, there's always an explanation. Right in the beginning, you don't see the demogorgan, you don't know what it is. All you see is a shado out, especially when Will is running right now, they had to like rereck on some things because when the demo Gorgan's originally chasing Will, right, like he uses actually telekinesis right to move the chain off and open the door. We never see a dema Gorgon do that ever again.
Right. And so in the beginning, I remember I was twelve years old.
I was Shane's age. I was, yeah, I was twelve years old. I was moderately scared. I remember seeing that.
I was like, oh my gosh, like, is this gonna be demonic?
Show? Didn't know what was going on, right, But then it was like, oh, nope, it is almost like an alien like figure, right, that's from another realm. Right, But it did carry on that demonic form, right, especially with the mind flare, right when you really really understood that it was actually possessing Will and entering his body and so, but then there was always a naturalistic explanation that it wasn't anything supernatural.
It was naturalistic. And so when you said that, I was like one hundred percent agree. So take ll L. You think is, oh, here's this supernatural figure. But then if you probe more deeply into it, she's more like the X Men that have kind of telekinesis unexplained natural powers than supernatural powers like doctor Strange. So even she has powers that go beyond the natural world, we can't explain and we don't know really where they come from. And she's actually the reason why she opens up the
portal in the first place. Like there's a certain danger to having that kind of power in the world in which we live, and we naturally recognize that, but it's not supernatural. It's actually a natural kind of power that she has, but it is just unexplained, and it's kind of the result of science messing with them and tweaking with them and resulting in these powers.
Mister Clark says to the kids, He's like, guys, science is not forgiving. I remember being like, what, like, they're just they were so preaching at you in that moment, especially just about science, and yeah, and I.
Totally see what you're saying. Okay, so we're gon we're gonna come back to that. It's an important point about how it from storytelling to some of the preaching. But even though I think this is a naturalistic I would kind of call it and it's like a subversion of things that are supernatural. If you're paying attention. There are certain things we associate with being supernatural, but it's like
explaining demon possession way as mental illness. That's the kind of thing that the show is doing on steroids, which is fine, but there's also certain spiritual themes that emerge within it, and I don't know. This is where I would love to talk. I would love to talk with the Duffer brothers and know what's going on in their mind because there's certain spiritual themes that they just still embed within this show and they can't escape from it.
So I think, and this isn't necessarily unique to me, but clearly the hero and the protagonist to the show is l Right from the moment she shows up, she's the most intriguing, she's the most powerful. She really does lead the group as a whole when it's all said and done. She's kind of a Christ type figure, I think. Now again, I don't know if any of this was intentional, but she shows up, she's totally misunderstood, kind of like Jesus arguably is when he shows up and look, he's
rejected by his hometown, Nazareth. She's strange, she's persecuted, she's different, she has miracle type powers, although again they explain them away, but she has supernatural kinds of powers. Ironically, her mother is mentioned. Her father is never mentioned. Her father is never mentioned. This is almost like a kind of virgin birth. It's like, wait a minute, we know her mom and her story, but there's nothing about her father. Why is
that a piece of this? I find it's interesting the name she's eleven, and the name El in Hebrew is short for the name of God. Again, could be coincidence. I don't want to read too much into it, but as I was reading about this and thinking about it enough, that's like, wait a minute. Season one, she seemingly sacrifices herself to defeat the Dema Gorgan, resurrects and comes back. We think she's gone. Now you could say the same thing for Hopper. In some sense, he's gone and he
resurrects in a different way. And of course, at the end of the show in season five, again big spoiler alert if you haven't got that memo. Obviously we're spoiling things. Although the end is intentionally left open, the ultimate hero's death is what it's laying down your life and sacrificing for others. We see Iron Man do that, and you and I have done shows and had conversations about how he's a Christ type figure sacrifices himself to save others.
She does the same thing at the end, she literally sacrifices herself, staying, you know, as the portal closes up, and again we don't know really what happens, but if I had to bet based on the show, I think she's probably gone and they make up a story at the end they're like, I believe, which is kind of this blind faith, almost kind of religious belief at the end, which was interesting. But she probably sacrificed herself and knew
that was the only way to save reality. So you have this broken world in which relationships are broken and things are not as they're supposed to be. You have this seemingly virgin born you know that mirrors it come in with miraculous powers, misunderstood does miracles, lays down her life to save all of mankind, and then disappears. You can't tell me that there's not at least some serious
overlap with this. So either they planned it that way, which I'm skeptical of because there's so many ideas in the film that are critical of Christianity or like with Endgame, the greatest story you can tell is somebody who's kind of a Messiah type figure lays down his or her life. That's the greatest act of love to save the world. So I do think there's some powerful themes in here as Christians we shouldn't miss. And I have a reason why I focus on this. I think part of it
is it's just written on our hearts. We know what love is. It makes sense that the world is broken, makes sense we need a savior from outside of the normal realm to come in and save us. We can't save ourselves, and the only way you defeed evil is an act of love and self sacrifice. So in some ways, there are so many ideas embedded in Stranger Things that are contrary to a Christian worldview, and yet it rests on certain ideas that only makes sense in a Christian worldview. That's how I see it.
Just agree, am I reaching? Tell me for I think I disagree with you? Is I actually think that El's alive. I think that the Duffer brothers did not plan on what they were what they were doing right now, I do see what you're saying in terms of her being a christ like figure and her sacrificing herself, But I don't believe that that's what they were intending to do whatsoever. So actually we do agree on that. I don't believe that the Duffer brothers were intending that to be a Jesus.
Like figure everything. But I do believe that she was alive.
But I would argue that I actually think the Duffer brothers have no idea what love is, and I think they're trying to. They just throw stuff together and think about it, right, I think, Okay, now we're gonna come back to your thoughts on left.
I don't get ahead of ourselves. But please, seriously, if you're watching this and you want the Duffer brothers to sit down with me, I won't. We're gonna have to have a debate. I just want to probe and explore some of the spiritual themes behind this. I mean, the name el miraculous powers, those are seemingly a virgin birth, does sacrifice her life, promotes and argues for a kind of love of mankind. I mean, she is a christ time figure. Why did they do that? Did they do
it intentionally or not? I just want to know and would love to talk with the two of you. Please let me sit down and we could explore this. That would be so much fun. There are so many other spiritual things here, but a couple of things that also jumped out to me. Season five was preoccupied with secrets. It was all about secrets that people were keeping from one another. So Dustin's keeping a secret from Steve. That's part of why he rejected, because he didn't want him
to die Like Eddie. Of course, you have Jonathan and Nancy keeping secrets from one another. You have Will's big secret we'll get to in a minute. But part of what is there afraid of Vecna's going to use powers against them. But in part how do they overcome these secrets by a kind of confession. If I have a secret that tears me apart and that separates me from you, I've got to confess this sin and then it kind
of draws us together. So that scene, which apparently was a breakup scene with Nancy and with Jonathan, which in some ways I thought this was like a Titanic scene where the boat is sinking and they're dying. I'm like, looking now, we're going into the nineties. It was a confession scene. This is such a biblical idea that we have secrets, we have sins, and the way we overcome
them is we have to confess them. Again, I don't think they're doing this intentionally, but I'm like, they're telling the story critique in a Christian worldview, but embedded within it are these deep Judeo Christian ideas that just cannot be escaped. So I thought, I mean, there's other spiritual themes in this. But one of the things I do is I'll watch a show and i'll watch a movie.
I'll say, Okay, maybe they're critique in Christianity, maybe not, but what are some deep assumptions that are brought to the table and where do these assumptions make sense? And I think some of the assumptions in this show only makes sense within the Judeo Christian world view, even though they use it to critique the Judeo Christian world view. All right, So, really quickly, how much does the demonic element in the show concern you?
It depends on what you mean by concern, right, Like, I think as Christians, I don't think there's anything wrong with watching the show, especially you me having those conversations, right, especially having it when I was twelve years old, not fully understanding that I'm watching, right. We had those conversations, you asking me certain questions, and we were able to unpack those, and I was able to see, even from a younger age, that this does have a naturalistic explanation
for all the things that happen in this show. And so I wouldn't say if there's anything concerning about it right now. I do think in season four and five they kick it up in terms of like the exorcism stuff right where the eyes roll back, they're levitating like that, when I was like, okay, like, but that's when the show started to lose me, right. That's when the show ultimately started to lose me, right, when they were trying to interject.
That into the show.
But early on I was like, man, like, there's some scary stuff in here, right, But I was like, I actually I enjoyed it, right, and didn't think there was anything necessarily wrong with it, because I also don't think it like glorified it like it actually did in season
four and five, right. I actually think parts of the show like glorified though, when their eyes were rolling back and it just they added so many scenes like that that I was like, I'm getting a little bit more like I just I don't really want to watch this, like it's it, there's no need to watch it. And so but early on I would have no issues with the in.
Terms of what you mean by concerning your mom, this show kind of bothered her. She has real sense for that stuff, and I don't. I don't. I don't watch hardly any horror movies. Yeah, I can't watch any like extracist type movies. It bothers me because I think that's real. This was pushing some of the limits of that. Now, I do think that the Christian world view is true
and these things don't have ultimate power over us. But when I learned, for example, that Hasbro made a Wigi board for those fourteen and plus based on season one, and I didn't see it at the time, but Joy Spyers, when onld Ryder's character on the Wall puts up all these letters and she's communicating with Christmas lights to Will, who's in the upside down, and she's asking the letters are lighting up. It's like a Wigi board on the wall. And so they use that to market a Wigi board,
of course, to make money. But in some ways in this generation, it can communicate the idea of like, hey, a bunch of non experts, a bunch of kids can get together and just defeat this kind of evil if it exists, and just play with Luigi board. There is a level that a show like this can normalize that within society when biblically speaking, these things are real, which I agree with, I think goes back.
I don't think that Duffer brothers believe that it's real, right, because even in that moment right where she has the Chris lights and the words, there's a naturalistic explanation because Will is in the upside down in the exact spot, and he's the one that's pointing at the things that making the light go, so she's able to communicate with him, right, And so I think that there is that naturalistic explanation
that I believe that the Duffer Brothers. It's probably why there's no there's no big deal with it, right, if you understand the problem with an Ouigi board, you don't want anybody playing with an Oluigi board. Right. We have close friends right who have dealt with that stuff and seeing it and they're like, stay away from it, right, there's some real things that we've seen from those boards, right, And so I don't believe that the Duffer brothers even think that they're that big of a deal, right.
I don't think that they believe that the supernatural actually exists.
I think that they show that in the show, that there's a naturalistic explanation for everything.
I'd love to have that conversation with them and see where their world view is coming from. So I do think the show subverts it, but I don't know how many people are paying attention to that and really picking up on it and thinking that I can put the Ouigi board not a big deal, cool way of communicating with somebody else and not understanding that humans are real. The supernatural is real, in fact, not just as real as this world. In some ways, it's more real than
this world. And I think at least Christians should give serious pause to this and ask is something being normalized and accepted and downplayed that the Bible says we're in a spiritual battle against you know, one thing, just a side note is the Jesus. I don't think ever comes up except as a swear word. Oh yeah, that's it. And you know I did this search on I did this, I'll just own it on chat GPT. I didn't do a full analysis itself. But you don't have anybody praying
to God. I think there's one scene where Hopper can't remember who he's talking with, and it's when he's like in Russia and he's like, maybe I should play may pray. Maybe there's a plan, Like there's kind of this hint of it, but there's never like supernatural powers are coming, we need to pray, we need to trust in Jesus.
I mean, none of that. And yet according to this analysis, you know, fans have estimated that there were dozens of times the word Jesus Christ or ged are used, potentially over one hundred in the first half of season five alone. I stopped it and I said that to you. When we were watching it.
I remember being like, they're like intentionally adding in, Like they would say something and he would pause and then say GD and then keep going, and I'm like, there just says no need. And it was like every character was saying it too. It wasn't just like you know, Popper saying it or one another. It was literally every
person had a moment saying that word multiple times. Even Missus Wheeler's saying it when she's like and I'm like this, She's like, I'm never leaving my gd kid alone, and I'm like, oh my gosh, everybody's saying this.
Word, and so like, why why would Duffer brothers do that? It insults a huge segment of your of people who are watching this. It's not necessary. Look, I was there in the eighties. That is not the main way people were cussing. There were a lot of words that were used that would not be used in this that are not politically correct anymore. To use a dated term within itself, that's not how people spoke. That's an example of something that's just not necessary at all. Why put that in there?
And it just bothered me, example after example after example, I read a number of people like, because they did this so much, ituned out. So it's just amazing that God and Jesus show up there, but not really anywhere else. There's a few church scenes, but they were not that significant as a whole. So all right, So last question. The big scene that a ton of people are talking about is the coming out story of Will, and in some ways that this is a side part of the story.
We wouldn't have to spend a ton of time on it. But this is like a pivotal moment that the Duffer brothers said for nine years they were building up to it, and his coming out gives them a kind of of superpower to really the character who plays Will said it gave him superpower to ultimately defeat Vetna. So give me your take on that scene wherever you want to go with it.
So I have like my personal take, and then I just have my generation viewed with this, okay, with this take. So my personal take was I literally was I'm done. I'm like, this is ridiculous. The world is ending, and we need to take a fifteen minute break so Will can tell everybody that he's gay, and I'm like, why nobody cares. One of the things that I said to you, I said, I would love to know the percentage of people who are watching this show who this scene did not make.
Them up, like, did not make them comfortable.
Like I just was like, I swear, how do you not watch this and be like just oh yeah, good for Will. Everybody that I talked to is like that scene sucked right. Everybody acted horrible. It literally felt like it was interjected into the show for no reason, and honestly, it made me upset because this showed me I was.
Like, I loved seasons one, two, and three. I loved it.
I remember in season three where Robin had that scene where she tells Steve that he's gay, and I remember she is, yeah, that she's gay, and I just remember being like, ah, of course they had to add something. But I didn't think it was like that bad, right, I'm like, Okay, they have a gay character.
Okay, that's fine. I think that Steve in the eighties.
Would not have reacted the way that he reacted, but that's a separate point.
But I just remember being like, it's not that big of a deal.
But when this scene came on, I literally was like, oh my gosh, this makes me upset because of how much I love this show and how.
Unneeded it was. It's so unneeded. Now my generation, I think has shares my views. We were just upset.
If you scrolled on TikTok, if you scrolled on Instagram, you know what I'm talking about. People are clowning that scene. And this is from the left to the right. Oh, this is this is as a whole. This is both this is not just like one side, no literally clowning that scene one because the biggest thing is like, you know, the world is literally ending, but we need to take a fifteen minute break so Will can tell everybody that he's gay, Like for some reason, that's supposed to help us,
but also it's why are why is everybody there? Like this is supposed to be Like when he was coming out, one of the things that Rob was telling him was like, you know, tell the people that you love.
Honestly, if the scene was just him, his.
Mom and Mike, I'd be like, you know what, like okay, I get it right, Okay there they still want to interject it.
But the fact that like.
Half the town's there, Like I'm like, you know, Hopper, who's the chief of police of a small town in Indiana, is not just going to sit there and be like you know what, Will yep, like you're right, Like nobody like says anything, you know, like Eleven's crying, you know.
I'm just I'm like, what is is? What is going on here?
Like they're just trying to preach us that this is normal, But nobody watching that, at least a mass majority of people watching that nobody thought was that's normal, right, because you don't need to preach at something that's normal, right. Nobody else in that room if if Mike him was like, you know what, I like girls, I like eleven like that wouldn't that wouldn't everyone like yeah? Like of course, they'd have actually probably the same reaction that the Dumber
Brothers were trying to give off. And so that scene like makes me super upset because I watched it get interjected into the show when it did not need to be there.
It did not need to be there. See that's where I totally agree that. One of the other shows that we watched when you were a kid was The Flash, And interestingly, the first three seasons we loved, and then season four went off the rails loved. The Season three of Flash is one of my all time favorite seasons of any show. It was just so interesting. Savatar a great bad guy. Now in the Flash, there there's a couple that lives together before they're married. They make it
seem really cool. There's a gay character. I think he's maybe the police chief. None of that bothered me because I don't expect the Flash to promote Christian morality. They're telling a story about a hero in a society in which there are people that live together, there are people who are married, there are people who are gay. Fine, that doesn't bother me. And then Supergirl came out and I thought, you know what, I'm gonna watch this with
your sister three years younger. This is a little girl power, this will be a fun connected point we started, and they literally sacrifice the quality of the storytelling to promote this lesbian relationship. And I was sitting having lunch with an atheist friend of mine and he goes. I completely agree with you that he goes. I assess the morality
that relationship differently than you do. He goes. But I couldn't watch Supergirl because they sacrifice the quality of the storytelling to insert something that was unnecessary and didn't advance the story. That's how I felt with this. I mean, in some ways it felt like we've had crammed down our throats culturally speaking, how important it is to praise how everybody feels about themselves. If however, somebody identifies, we
all have to love and praise on them. And in this show, the world is literally ending, and it's more important to affirm Will's feelings and make sure everybody loves on him than to actually go out and save the universe. So in some ways, I'm watching this going did they not get the memo in twenty twenty five that it's not twenty twenty anymore. It felt like, not only is this a show in the eighties that never would have
gone down that way. I was there, It's so never would have gone down that way for a million reasons, but also felt like a show stuck in the early twenty twenties where they didn't get the memo that culture has kind of moved on from that and a little
tired of being preached at. And I think what's just so interesting to me is the wrap on Christian movies, which I think in some ways was rightly there was some truth to it, is that Christian movies are always preaching like the come to Jesus moment is just not natural. It's forced. It's in your face. It's like, okay, we all saw that coming. And I've proclaimed to a lot of Christians in filmmaking and just in conversation, I say, just tell a natural story exactly, and that's more powerful.
I think they could have just told a natural story because I can remember growing up in the eighties in the early nineties. Even though I'm a Christian and hold a Christian sexual ethic, I didn't always see it at the time, but looking back at the language that was used, the way people were treated is totally out of line, and look back, I'm like, WHOA like that was really messed up. They could have just naturally woven that in there.
So a thought so respecting their audience in the sense of, oh, we'll pick up on that and see that we've improved in the way they think society should improve. But instead, as somebody who's watching this, I feel like they're insulting my intelligence and stopping the story to go, okay, now we've got our commercial to preach at you, and then back to literally saving the world from there. It's just
it's bad storytelling. Its smacks of preaching at somebody. So the best stories are those that you kind of discover and they feel natural, rather than being told what you're supposed to think. You walk away and you maybe rethink things, maybe you see it a little bit differently, maybe it's provoked thought. I think they had an opportunity to do that and just didn't do so so that scene in itself my Christian ethic aside in which we could talk
about all those issues. And I've done a ton of videos here people can watch to figure out my position on marriage and sexuality and LGBTQ. But just from a filmmaking and a storytelling perspective, I thought it was just. And the last thing I'll say you hinted at this earlier is back in season three when Robin comes out. When I'm watched that on going, that conversation didn't happen
anyway where in the eighties. Ever, the way they framed it there in that same season, when the kids are trying to break a code dust he has to reach out to his girlfriend and get a number, I think it was like Plank's constant. If I could be totally butchering this, but the number they get was not reflective of the time in which the movie took place. And all these people criticized you didn't get the eighties right, I'm going, why are we picking on this and not that?
Because it's driven by an agenda and it's driven by a worldview. That's what I think is behind this. So again, Duff Brothers, if I'm wrong, let's talk about it. Explain where you're coming from, Explain why you think this is a part of the story and we should assess it differently. I would love to have that conversation with you. Anything else you want to add about the show as we wrap up.
No, my biggest thing was is I absolutely adored season one through three.
It was awesome. I felt like I was growing up with the show.
And then they just took this time get But I know there was COVID and the writers' strike and all these things, and just there were other shows that came out and started and ended in between the show.
You said you started Trump's presidency.
I was like, holy cow, Like it literally went through his entire presidency and Biden's Like. It was a long, long show, and I think that that was to the detriment of it, right. I believe that they stretched it out too far. Sometimes you got to just end a show. We talked about the Flash, right, that went way too long.
They should have just ended it after season three, right, And so I believe that that was super disappointing, especially the way, especially the way it four and five went, and just the continued preaching and honestly, the more people I talked to, we were very.
Upset with that last scene. I was very upset.
I've never watched Lost, and I know you've shared your opinions on how that show just completely went to crap at the end and end horrible. That's how I feel this show honestly went. The first three seasons, I would give nine out of ten. That's how good of a show I thought it was. The last two seasons. At best, I give.
It three out of ten. At best, Wow, three out of ten. All Right, you heard it from a gen and a gen xer. Let me know if these kind of reviews are helpful to you. I don't do a ton of movie reviews here, but if I can bring hopefully a cultural maybe an apologetic or worldview perspective issues, that's what I want to do on this channel. So let me know that you agree with what you said.
Do you disagree? I want to go through and read a lot of these comments because I've been watching this show for a decade and I'm really curious what you think. Make sure you hit subscribe. We've got some fascinating conversations coming up in twenty twenty six you will not want to miss. And if you thought about staying apologetics. We'd love to have you in our apologetics program we do at Talb School Theology. We do some cultural apologetics. We have classes on this as well as problem of Evil
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