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But it's so important to be filled with the spirit of God, to be humble Amen, broken time with the Lord in his word, and then from that reservoir of intimacy with him, you're going to know how to handle these issues.
What just struck me is like a humility and a willingness to speak about your brokenness.
Right before God uses a man greatly, he often hurts him deeply, and so it's just a series of God just continuing to break and break, and it's going to be a process till the day I die. And actually the more I broke, the more He used me.
After the death of Charlie Kirk, there seems to be two general responses. One, now is the time to go on the offensive. The time for charity and kindness is over. Two, we need to talk with one another more than ever, and we need to calm down some of the rhetoric. Bill Bridges, I know that's a simplification, but tell me where you land on that and why.
I think you know and you might hear me say this a few times as we talk. But it's so important to be filled with the spirit of God, to be humble, Amen, broken time with the Lord in his word, and then from that reservoir of intimate intimacy with him, you're going to know how to handle these issues because both cowardliness not saying anything and arrogantly beating people up with your words both come from a fleshly desire. It's
it's a flesh taking over. So I think, on one hand, we need to speak the truth and love a lot more. But on the other hand, we've got to make sure it's the right tone, the right the rhetoric and the anger. I mean, America right now is extremely angry. But are we broken? You know, we're upset, but are we humble? And so I know some people won't to hear that, but it needs to come from that type of heart because it's hard to say here's how you need to act.
When what about if my actions require silence and just loving the person listening to them, what about my actions it is at a different point required me. You know what I've had You're going to say something school board meetings or whatever's going on, I know, and so being sensitive to the leading of the spirit, because I don't think we can just throw a blanket statement on everything. You know, For example, if I said, yeah, speak the truth and love and fight back, and that's going to
send the wrong message. But at the same time, don't say anything, just turn the other cheek. It's funny. Jesus didn't turn the other cheek when he was.
Slabbed, That's true.
He said why, why? What evil have I done? Why have you slapped me? And so I think there's no blanket approach. If that makes sense.
It does. So your person is not going to be lack of a better I guess, dictated by the cultural moment whatever that is. No, not at all, and even one bit. It's more like I get my life right before the Lord filled with the spirit. There's a time for grace, there's a time for truth, and that's the way it's always been since the beginning, the way it always will. Is that a fair synopsis, I think it is.
But of course we have to be sense of where the culture is, you know, because there is a time and a place to put on the big boy pants and say something you know or do? I mean you look at where the state of our nation is. I think a lot of it has to do with the silence and the pulpits. The pulpits are not to proclaim you look at the top ten pastors right now and watch their messages. You're not going to hear repentance, the Blood of Christ, judgment, the cross, all these foundational things.
So looking at the state of the church and the culture, I think it will require action. But also it has to come from the reservoir that time spent with God. And I've noticed, maybe you have to The more time I spend with God, the bolder I become interesting. Right now, boldness doesn't always mean loud and in your face. It
sometimes means that gentle unwavering or that gentle pushback. And I've just noticed, over seasons of fasting and spending time with God, the word of lie word of God come alive. Like just last week when God told Jeremiah, don't diminish one word, don't diminish one word. Preach what I've called you to preach. And you look at Jeremiah twenty three. The false prophets, actually a sure sign of a false prophet is saying peace, Peace, God's happy with our life.
Don't worry man. God's not upset. He's a doting grandfather, He's a cosmic ball of love. Peace man. And God said, I've not sent these prophets, yet they ran. I've not spoken, but they spoke. But had they truly stood in my counsel the word of God, they could have turned this nation back to me. My words like a hammer. It's like a fire that devours.
So that's part of the tension, right. We are called to be peacemakers, yes, but not false peace that avoids the truth of the Gospel and sin before for the Lord, et cetera. How we balance those two is kind of the constant tension. And I want to come back, not right now, but I don't come back to a few things you said about the purpose of the pulpit, which is really important today.
It is.
Yeah, how being in scripture it gives you more boldness. But for me, I was thinking about this conversation. Some of the hardest issues that I deal with as an apologist are not violenced in the Old Testament, and those are legitimate tough questions. Are not like the morality of say, hell, how God could be justifiled out, or claims that the Gospels contradict or scientific challenges to God. Those are not the toughest ones. The hardest questions I tend to deal
with are more personal for people and for myself. How do I balance grace and how do I balance truth? And our culture where there's such competing different world views. Sometimes I'm like, I don't know which voice is the best for right now, so help me. And I have my response to that in some ways, but I want to know how you think about balancing grace and truth,
and I would just frame it. You're right that there should be eternal principles, but we live in such an angry, divided culture, angry divided church that rewards people for responding in a certain way, which some ways militates against what should be a biblical approach. So what's your thinking through and how you balance grace and truth in your life and maybe with people in your church.
Well, you know what, right at the beginning, what you just said is so important for people to realize the reason it's easier for us to answer, you know, how could a loving God allow this in the Old Testament? All right? Wipe out the city? Or how do you how do you know the Pauline epistles, or how do you know the gospels are accurate? Or how do you you know? Because there's there's a standard answer that's very
no matter who. I mean, your Dad's book really helped me when I came back to the Lord on evidence that demands a verge. Absolutely, I couldn't put that thing down. I highlighted it and it really internalized it.
My goodness.
But when it comes to these issues, it's like, where do you offer you know, as one example, the pronoun idea, if I'm in Starbucks and I say, hey, thanks, grace, he goes, I'm he him, probably not gonna you know, okay, thanks and have a good day. But if it's a constant, like I'm working with him or I'm seeing him every day, at some point maybe maybe I'm Lordy, what do you want me to do? I want to just have grace
and love. But at the same time, this is I can't personally do that, and so maybe the boldness to say, hey, why do you say and open that conversation. So it depends on the situation. It depends on Sometimes you need to speak up, you know, but other times we need to offer that that love and grace. So how do I find the balance? Well, number one, I know we're not Jesus right he equally balanced truth and grace. But I also look at I love context, which I know
you do as well. Context and you actually challenge me. You probably don't remember this. About ten years ago, we spoke together humulate and I used, if my people are called by my name, humble themselves. You said, that's really for Israel. I'm like, oh, that's a good point, and so it is.
I say that you. I don't even remember I was going to go to you, and I just said, like, I just challenged.
You, but that was it, and I didn't push back because it's like, because you're right, because you know, God said when I bring pestilent, famin drought, if my people are called by my name, so you can have Okay, that context is Israel. But I think the principle still applies. For example, if America humbled her self, but God judged judges people differently nation, I mean, that's a whole another yea.
Yeah.
So my point is I look at context of speak the truth in love. Right, well, if you look at the beginning, in the end, it's about maturing and growing up in the faith. So it's like we must speak the truth and love in order that people mature and grow up in the faith. Ironically, I'm driving here this
morning and I had this perfect example. A friend of mine spoke for me last night and Wednesday night because name's Chris, and I challenged him over a decade ago because he was involved with what I say, hyper charismatic, you know kind of and and I just lovingly times I would say, man, you got to just be careful because and then now he thanks me, but back then it was a little well and you know, you're not overly, you know, pushy, but like, hey, have you thought about this?
So to answer the question more directly, each situation requires probably and I have to watch it because if I'm if I'm moody, if I'm gonna I mean type a personality. I mean, you talked about this, which we agree on. There are different callings. Yeah, you know your calling is going to be maybe more gentler and more just love, you know, John, John the Beloved where God's wired me as John the Baptist. Right, So I'm gonna be I'm gonna be a little bit more in your face with
the sermons. And and but I see the fruit, I see the change lies. I see that, and so knowing I can't equally balance that tension, right, I don't think. Man, I've lived perfectly this week. I perfectly balance grace and love and grace and truth. So speaking the truth and love when it needs to be said, spending that time with God. I think the New Testaments clear you err on the side of grace. I you know, I think we could agree. If you're gonna air, you're probably gonna
air on the side of grace. But there comes a time and a place where you've got to speak the truth and love. And what does grace look like? It doesn't mean sweeping sin underneath the carpet. It means to me, grace means, hey, you know what. I know you fell. We've talked about that before. You know where I stand. But you know what, you got to get back up and keep fighting. And so you were able to lovingly rebuke. And so that's what I do at my church. It
depends what a person's going through. If I've got a dad who's unrepentant, I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna shoot him pretty straight. And look what you're doing to your family, Look what's costing your kids, and I'll put on this, you know. But if there's another guy just came in and he's he's struggling with alcohol and he fell again. Man, just get back up, get to that altar. So it depends on unreally where the where the spirit's leading me.
I mean that's not a cop out, but I think it's you know, and being and being careful because our emotions play a role in that too.
I don't think that's a cop out. I think we all want a line of exactly what we're supposed to do. Yeah, it's natural, but life is messy.
Yes.
Part of my answer I get when I get asked this question is I say, we're gonna have to live in the tension of grace and truth. And if you're not living in that tension, either you're probably speaking too much truth or showing too much grace in the sense of not speaking truth true. So there's kind of a natural push and pull because I hear new circumstances, I hear new issues. I'm in the moment, So I think all of us are gonna have to live in a
certain tension. But the other piece I also think is you said we were an event, I don't know, six or eight weeks ago Pastor's conference for KKLA, and you also said something that's been in the back of my mind, you said to me, you said, you said, I'm more like referring to yourself a John the Baptist, you might be more like a John the Beloved right, And that
like really hit me. I've been thinking about that because I remember a spiritually pivotal moment for me is I was sitting here at Biola in the Eagle's Nest and I was reading a book by Brennan Manning and he made a point. This scene so obvious now, but at
the point was game changing. He said, spiritual maturity for different people will look different based on their giftings, and for me, at that point, spiritual maturity was my father right, And so I thought, if I'm not as bold as he is, and I had certain characteristics that define him, then I'm not spiritually mature. And I remember reading that going, oh my goodness, there are certain spirits of the fruit in his life I want. But I'm also wired differently,
so it might look a little bit differently. Do you agree that that when we talk about like the tension between grace and truth, we have different wirings and it's not gonna look the same for you as it does for me. And should we celebrate that, and maybe we go wrong when we think I'm a true teller and if everybody's not like me, then they're airing. That's what I think concerns me. Or on the flip side, someone's like, I just I show grace. Everybody needs to show grace.
It's like, yeah, but I do have a prophetic voice and this person needs to repent. That's kind of what I see your thoughts.
Yeah, that's it's exactly you summed up well, because how God has wired us and I've I think what this conversation started with you. I don't remember how it came up, but why and even why I started thinking I think that many years ago. Is I've got pastor friends and they are just incredible. I mean I've listened to sermons. I don't think they ever get what's a good word, you know.
Fired up, animated, animated.
Right, It's just they're just man, good teachers and solid And you know Chuck Smith's example, you know Dan hear Cover Chapels or uh, I mean we can list a lot of good, good teachers. Even John MacArthur's kind of just just just straight, but he was bold. So you compare him with Chuck say or you know, like when I was studying theology, I would read Jack K. Fred and John MacArthur, you know, try to find that ballance interesting.
So I think there is a wiring like God, you know, let's say, God, I've given you this burden in your heart to call the nation to repentance, and and you're going to be bold and repentance and and just press in and animated like a Whitfield or Wesley. And you read their journals compared to Jonathan Edwards who is very just reading his manuscript, where other people preach their whole body and their messages were different. And so that's what I mean. It's kind of a compliment people, because I
would get a lot of people. I wish my pastor was like you, well, no, you don't, you're just you're just you're just glad I'm bold and you're not. You know, six months from now you'll have issues with me too, right, or or other church a man Shamey's a calm down a little bit right, he's just too like, you know, and so you realize, you know, I'm just gonna be comfortable in how God designed me. And there are I believe, there are different callings and we talked about before, even
with political arena. Thank God for the Tony Perkins Ordopsin's or those, even though that might not be somebody else's wheelhouse, Like why are they so involved? We should think them that they are, and why are you so involved? I'm not And okay, glad you're not because your main calling is a homeless in your ministry and you know you don't say what happens is we've become wrongly judgmental is where I'm trying to get to. I see a lot of people wrongly judgmental, Like I I'm bold. I'm this
bold pastor. I've got one hundred thousand Instagram followers and I call it out and these other pastors are weak and they're woke and not necessarily it could be different callings, you know, different the way God has wired us differently, and thank God for that. So it just was a real I went through a Pharisee season. Can all that.
I want to come back to that this is actually really important. But when you said to your comfort, I think you use the word I'm comfortable in my calling. Yes, I want to clarify what you mean by that, because I'm comfortable in the sense of I know who God has called me to be, and I'm an apologist. I speak truth, but I consider myself a relational apologist. I like to have conversations. I'm not threatened by people who see the world differently. I've had some debates, and I
enjoy it as much as the next person. I have a competitive edge about me. I'm just drawn to like sit down and connect with people's That's my lane. So I'm comfortable in that. But I also don't want to be too comfortable. I do like just two weeks ago, oh, I have a professor here and he goes Sean. Sometimes you say things like you know this gives me pause. Yeah, you go sometimes just tell people what you think. And I was like, you know what, You're probably right about that.
Sometimes I might nuance things too much because I want to think about it, like that's a fair challenge to me. So I'm comfortable in my arena, but I also want to be made uncomfortable so I can grow and get better. So tell me what that means for you to be comfortable on God's design but uncomfortable at the same time when someone pushes you.
You actually just reveal the gold mine here. I hope people realize because some people can be comfortable and not offending, like that's my goal, or maybe a bolden creatures pastors can be they man they want to offend, and that's not good either.
They've got to they got the sake of offending.
They got to put on the brakes or somebody else might need to put on the gas. So what I mean is, and I don't know who you used to like, who do you gravitate towards as you when you're younger? I mean what type of books and speakers for me? I loved books on revival American church history, first grade Awakening, second grade Awakening. I mean I devoured those new Hebridge revivals.
Duncan Campbell, d Martin, Lloyd Jones recommended. De Martin Lloyd Jones recommended a series of books men like Hal Harris, Griffin, Jones, Daniel Rowlands in Welsh and Scotland. I don't know why, but God, because that's how I'm wired. And then so I like the Wilkerson raven Hilltosers, okay, because that's how I'm wired. But that that's a hard calling because you
do convict, you do upset more than most. You say it like it is, and I finally just got comfortable with that, like, Okay, this is how I'm wired, you know, because I came out of the fitness industry as a district manager running fitness centers, and so I was a motivational speaker, right, so.
This is before you're even a Christian.
Well, it's a transitionary period. God use that to bring me back the prodigal son come home. But I would go in like, okay, fill out surveys. You know what was the speaker's appearance, How did they And so it's all based on men's approval. A motivational speaker motivation. Now it's like spending time with God, the words coming alive in my heart and just preach it. And it's when you do that, you know, it's not always popular. And so I had to become comfortable in the calling that
God has given me to say the hard things. And I believe the more God has called a person to be that that voice of truth and that, like you said, that prophetic voice, I believe there are different you. Actually, the more humble you have to be because pride is self exaltation and I'm always right and that's how you fall in ministry is because of pride. So you have pride on the sense of us who are bold, but you also have pride on the other hand what we call the woke or whatever you want to call it,
the cowardly, that they don't want to offend anybody. They don't upset anybody. And in the Gospel, Oswald Chambers actually says the message of the Gospel hurts and offense until there's nothing left to hurting to offend. And he's true. And so so that side, I'm not saying you that the other side has. They have to. They have to.
They have to spend time with God and get that boldness back, get that fire the spirit back, and then others of us have to spend that time with God to stay humble and to be broken, impliable and usable by Him. So that's I have to get comfortable, because it's a hard calling to to. I mean, you look at Jeremiah, Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Mica and Nahem, you know, the minor, the major, the voices that really spoke God's word faithfully and even difficult to
a nation that didn't want to hear it. It's it is hard. So that's why Matt became comfortable with I'm going to ruffle feathers.
Uh.
But the testimonies that come in are are just amazing, and so you have to look at that fruit as well.
So let's go to your backstory. Well, he said at the beginning, it was something effective being bold, like America. You know, there's a truth in boldness, but as America broken.
Right.
You and I were speaking event a few weeks ago, and you texted me on my way out as I'm driving home, like right, and I got in my card, hit traffic for like two hours, perfect time, and it was a message that you shared and Shane, I was in tears as I was driving down I don't know if it was the five or whatever freeway it was, and just thinking, oh my goodness, here's somebody from the outside is like a bold truth speaker. We've done a
few events together, that's my sense. But whoa like this story and what just struck me as like a humility and a willingness to speak about your brokenness, talk about that season and what happened.
Yeah, that was that was at a pastor's conference in Ohio, Salem web networkers, and I was a keynote speaker, and you know, before before God uses the man greatly, he often hurts him deeply. Aw Towser would say. So it's been a process of I don't know how much open up with, but in my twenties walking away from God. You know, it costs a lot and a lot of pain. And then finally when the prodigal son came home and just the tears and the fullness of the spirit, you know,
it was it was incredible. And then when the work comes alive, you know, the Bible talks about knowledge puffs up, so you know, five years into it, I'm quote Spurgeon and the Puritans and Tulip and and all these things, and I'm just, you know, I'm just grudom Systemacteology I devoured in June July August one summer and Hodge's System Acteology and lectures to my students Spurgeon and Lloyd Joan.
Just like, man, I'm just man, I'm just telling people off, and I'm just putting my people, you know, just like kind of like here's what you gotta do. And my mom finally came to me. She says, hey, nobody wants to be around you. By the way, by then I am twenty nine.
Twenty nine, thirty fired up theologically truth teller.
Oh no, but then five years later, so thirty thirty four, thirty five.
So you're thirty four. It was your mom, of all people that came to you, Okay, paint that picture what happen.
Yeah, and she said, uh, Shane, nobody wants to be around you anymore. And I said, well, they're just convicted, right, because you know, alcoholism or this, and they're just convicted. They don't like what I have to say. It's like, no, it's not what you say, it's it's how you say it. You're And so that that Phariseeism had to be broken
out of me. And it's a process and many many, I'm sure listening to this will will need to spend some time with the Lord to get broken before him because they're bold, but they're arrogant, and that's you know, that's that's you gotta have boldness, but you've got to like Whitfield wouldn't preach without about hell without tears in his eyes, you know, and having So that that's what happened at that Ohio event. It was just just that breaking process. And there are other times I shared with you.
I am twenty seventeen. Maybe I had a young girl come in sixteen seventeen. She said, you just made me feel so bad. Today I'm struggling the same sex attraction. And I preach, because I preach, here's the difficult of the person, right, and you want to help them and share God, but you the agendas killing me. Right. It's like the schools like how.
Do you how do you balance that?
How do you love the one? But call out the agenda? And so I cried with her and I learned a valuable lesson that day. I've had other you know, just that breaking process where because when you're strong and bold, you know, you'll steamroll people if you're not careful. And so it's just a series of God just continuing to break and break, and it's going to be a process
till the day I die. But and so I think, and actually the more I broke, the more He used me, you know, So so opportunities would open, God would would open more doors, and it was just it was it was incredible. So that's kind of my framework of where I come from.
So I want to pro I want to probe it out a little bit, and I don't want to frame from people like boldness can turn into arrogance very easily. Meekness can turn into cowardice. Yeah, So the key is how we balance the two of these without and maybe again, I think because of our wiring or our experience, some of us are naturally grace givers. Some of us are naturally truthtelligent. I think some of that is just wired
into our DNA. Yeah, it's not going to change, but take us like, paint that picture a little bit more.
Your mom comes to you, you're about thirty four, how you responded, and then kind of the steps of working through that brokenness, because there's probably a lot of people watching this that I do want to be challenged a little bit to maybe think, you know what, I need to do some of this similar work in my own life and for the record, not just for them, for me too, write I need to keep working do this well.
I think I shared this in one of my books and articles and different things. Another point after this time, I think my wife down purpose but I don't think we even had kids yet, just married. She left her journal open, you know, and it said, I married a man who is you know, heart domineering or controlling in this. You know, I can't do much about it. I wouldn't want to have, you know, affect the kids. I'm like, what, I took it a drive. I was so angry and upset,
but what I was doing. I was like, no, you can't start a makeup business, or you can't do this. We're saving money, We're saving So it wasn't controlling it psych a It was just like, no, we're not going to spend money doing that. We're not, you know, just kind of not respecting the wife's thoughts that you show become one. And so we talked it through and that really got me to another spot of brokenness as well. And then I mentioned actually this Sunday that we we
our church began to visit hospital homes. Do you know what those are? Their hospitals inside neighborhoods where people will investors will buy a house and then they'll turn it into four bedroom you know, and they get they get income and they put patients there with nurses. So our church was given like five of these to go and minister too. And the stuff I saw there, I would leave just crying, you know, I remember one suicide fell, suicide attempt, half of her skulls missing. She's blind and
she's depressed and suicidal. I'm there to minister to her. She can't see, but I'm crying my tears on the floor and I'm praying for her about when she was abused as a four year old. And just and I go to another guy's a paraplegic, and these things that are just breaking and breaking. But God, that's how he keeps your heart tender and pliable because you can have you can be straight as a gun barrel theologically, but
just as empty, you know, dead inside. Uh, just arrogant and we see that that Bible thumping in your face, you know, certain and just that they're just you can tell those people there's just too much arrogance. They don't there's not enough. And again that's that's something I'm working on till the day I die. So don't look at me and go, oh, that's of course, that's a great example.
Now I struggle with it often, you know, but so yeah, my mom's thing, my wife's journal, just other things that just God keeps breaking and breaking and uh, and it just gets to a point where and now worship, you know, during worship, you know, just praying, preparing for that message you you heard. Actually what broke me there is before they told this lady she became a Christian because of
the Samaritans purse those shoe boxes. Oh yeah, And so she's talking about how they were delivered to her and I ran or Iraq or something like that and became believers. Her father was actually threatened for his, like her life, like we're going to kill you and your family, and like just she only had like okay, you got five minutes, you got six minutes, right, And and I'm naxt I'm thinking that's that's the keynote speaker. She needed to be
the keynote speaker. God help. And I just went up there already already kind of just in tears because like we can't rush her through this, like this is, this is so important. This is and Pastor Shane our guest speaker, and like like those things just break you and you have to be you have to not think so highly of yourself and you have to be broken before God and through that brokenness, you know, the more when the more we the more we do that, the lower we
go the more he'll elevate too. And of course we get into my background dyslexia, graduate high school at the one point eight, re reading and learn new disabilities. Came from a hard working construction family, was destined to be nothing, really, and then once I committed to myself to the Lord and that everything just shifted. You know.
I went to school here in ninety four to ninety eight at Biola and had a number of different friends, but one friend in particular who was in some ways my perception the way you're describing yourself when you were younger. He was a truth teller. He would go out and do evangelism all the time, stood up in chapel a few times and called out a speaker and left. And
let's just say we ended on not great terms. Yeah, maybe I shouldn't say this, but he's He's the only person I was inches away from just punching and trying to knock him out. I was so upset. I'm not proud of that. And we, you know, we were in touch a little bit all the time, but mostly lost touch. He left, went to another university, and it was shortly after the death of Charlie Kirr that he sent me an email and he apologized for the way that he acted here. And I'm not going to pretend that I
did everything right. That's not the point here, but I got that and I was like, first off, I didn't expect that. Second, it was so moving that somebody three decades later is like, you know what, God convicted my heart and I just see a difference in his character
and he's coming out here soon. I'm heading to where he lives and we're gonna like hang out, and it's like literally just like I'm really looking forward to seeing him because of this, and just an example of somebody that in some ways it seems to kind of mirror your story a little bit. What would you say to that person? Because you and I have talked about individuals.
We don't need to name names at all, but when you see people maybe on social media, YouTube, pastors, conferences, in conversation wherever, and you kind of see yourself in somebody who's younger and going, you know what, I think you need to be humbled. You know, you can fill in the blank. What would you say to yourself twenty years ago?
First, my mind is going to I wonder why he called him out, like is it something to call the personality? You know what?
I will actually tell you he was right about it.
He was right.
Well, so that's a fair question. He stood up called a guy a heretic, and this guy's completely left his faith and has become a humanist. So he saw stuff that I didn't see. So there was you know, he was right about certain things. The timing I don't know the answer to that. But to answer your question, I was like, well, he was right on that one.
That sounds like I mean I would I've thought about that before. You know, when do you call people out? And when do you not? You know, when you say But what was the question? I forgot again?
So the question was what you would say to your younger self? Oh my god, by the way, before you answer that, I think the line this person said was something effective. You think you'll be saved without shedding some of your own blood?
Oh yeah?
And he just called it out. And in my mind I'm still at that now, I like, see it crystal clear, but that day, what does he mean? And trying to figure it out. He just called it out, and I think he was right that he's preaching a false gospel. But my question for you is what would you say to yourself, my younger or somebody twenty years ago.
Boy, you know what, I actually write about it and preach it in sermons. So that's how I try to get it out out of out there. And I do come to younger pastors and leaders. The problem with pride is you don't see it. And you can tell people certain things hopefully it'll stick, but really life has got to break them. God's got to break them. So you can say and they're like, oh yeah, I God, I'll be different. You know I'm not. That's what can happen
to me. I don't remember if you remember Steve Farrar's book Finishing Strong.
I do.
I'll never forget. He interviewed or somebody did two hundred and eighty of the top Christian men who fell in ministry, and at the top of the list was that will never happen to me. That will never happen to me. And see they don't want to and other people I don't want to, you know. But back in the eighty some of these big ministries that fell, like David Wilkerson went to some of these people or other people, and they don't want to hear it. They don't want to,
so I would. I would probably pray for the person for God to wake them up, and I would share, Hey, you know, we're sensing some and usually that want to be challenged, so they'll push back. Oh no, I'm just I'm just convicting. You know, that's a guy. That's a message God gave me. And I'm just I'm just a straight shooter. I've heard that before. I'm just a straight shooter. You know. No, you're arrogant. You're arrogant because you can tell.
You can tell when somebody's just feisty. And but then you have that that bold prophetic voice too that we see sometimes on Instagram. There's that he's actually exploding right now that the guy in Georgia, black guy incredible. You know, I sense truth and love and other people, but you can sense that just that arrogance, wanting likes, wanting more followers, wanting more views. And so I would try to say something to my younger self, but my younger self wouldn't.
You're not even sure the person would would hear it. That's totally that's a fair point. Yeah, yeah, I've had conversations with people have gone both ways. I've seen people on it, and I've said, really kindly in relationship, I think you're head in the direction it's going to be destructive. And just know when you get there, I love you and I'm here for you.
Amen.
That's a good And I've said to people like this, you're arrogant and you need to change and you need to repent, and neither worked in the moment now that I figure about it, Yeah, And I don't know. I mean, maybe it's just a matter of, like you said, following your conviction before the Lord, hope your full spirit pray for that person.
And and I should add it's not like I wouldn't say anything. Sure, I'm just not confident it's going to fair. That's fair, and believe it. I mean there's times I can't tell you how many times I'll get an email a year or two later and say, Hey, just want to let you know you're right, thank you for challenging me. I really thought about it. Most people aren't going to respond well initially because it takes humility to respond well. And if they're prideful, they're not going to respond well.
So it's kind of like, you know, they're like I can say Oh yeah, thanks for pointing that out. I need to work on that because we all need to work on something, you know. I mean, if people like we see in the media, social media, that all these people are accusing people that they should say, you know, I do need to work on some of that. Thank you for bringing it up and move forward. But there's pride won't let you do that. It's guarding. It's self preservation.
That's what pride is. That's what legalism is. It's self preservation rules versus wisdom of following God's rules. Right, you want to you want to follow God's rules. You want to you want to build that relationship. And I don't consider them rules or guardrails through the canyons of life.
Really, how much do you think about long term with people? Because I think about my students. And I had a student who really was in my class and became an atheist, and we had coffee a couple of times. It was really good and it was just clear to me he has made up his mind, not open. And I just graciously at the end, I said, you know, you went down this road without me being a part of the
conver station, became an atheist. Did it alone? If you ever just open the door up and are considering God again, will you shake my hand, look me in the eyes, and promise me that you'll at least invite me into the conversation. Shook my hand and said, yes, I haven't heard from him yet. You know, he's twenty some years behind me. But I think about playing the long term with people. But then the voice in the back of my mind sometimes is like, but you know what, they
could get hit by a car tonight. And maybe that's the evangelist in me true that I go back to, and I don't know how to. I just don't always know how to balance that. And maybe it is like you said, we're back to just like before the Lord, just speak truth with a heart of that person as best as I can. And maybe I didn't do it perfectly, but that's where grace comes in, and I can just trust God's sobeimntying that person's life.
I mean, well, you know what, you just made me think of something I've I've not a good example of this in the past, because you know what, you say something lovingly confront you want to you want to follow up a couple of weeks later, a month later and you keep pressing where you should just left it, and I actually push people farther away, you know, like what you had me thinking, but now you're upsetting me and like, oh, I like with kids that are rebellion, right, I mean,
your kids know where you stand. You just love them. You don't you don't allow certain things under your roof, but they you know, they need that grace. And I think I've seen so many kids walk away, yes from Luke war mccarnal Holmes, but also from the modern day Pharisee homes where their dad rules at home like a rod of iron and it's rules and they don't see the brokenness and gentleness and love and grace of Christ. And you that's actually I think it was. I think
it was your dad again. Oh my goodness, he said, uh, he said. One of the most common questions he gets, this is like thirty years ago, from young adults that he travels the country. This is one of the number one questions he gets from young adults is how can I live for Christ when I don't want the Christ my parents have? Wow, I remember reading that. I highlight it and I just how can I live? And their
number one question all the young adults. Is how can I live for Christ when I don't want the Christ my parents out? I mean that if that doesn't bring you to tears, you know that that broke. And that's how I believe our kids are, at least our kids so far doing well because we show them that brokeness and that humility. I could have handled that better, but we stand strong on certain things. But they see that grace, They see that that's powerful because when it breaks you,
it breaks them. But that arrogance, they'll push back on that legalism.
So you're pastor and you're dealing with a lot of families and individuals, And you've talked about families who leave a lukewarm home, families who leave a legalistic home. My experience, haven't done some writing and thinking a lot of conversations on deconstruction and deconversion. Yeah, it's far more those who have come from the legalistic home and are reacting against it. Now, it might be that those who leave lukewarm home just end up they're not upset about it, and then I'll
talk about it. So I don't have a number on which one is more significant statistically, but those are the stories that I hear more do you hear those kinds of stories far more? And how would you counsel a parent when you know that this element is present and their kids are questioning these kinds of you know, they're questioning their faith, they're concerned about them. But you see that legalism present in the family. So I guess it's
a two part question. Do you see more reacting in the way that I describe from that fundamentalist, legalistic, harsh family, and how do you navigate that when it comes to you?
Well, here's a good test for your listeners. The legalist is not going to like what you just said. And if you don't like what I said, it's because you need to hear what I said basically. But let me qualify. Neither home is good, okay, neither home rightly, lukewarm, carnal, any type of lukewarm would be Yeah, Concerts that maybe aren't God honoring, movies that aren't God honoring Netflix, Okay.
So is it fair to say these other priority these things matter at the spense of church and living out your faith as opposed to like, you can be a vibrant Christian but engage certain things and culture wisely?
Is that for Surekaya? Leave that, you leave that up to the individual.
So your point was when I cut you off, is that that lukewarm family is not good. Neither is the legalistic family is not good.
Right, I'm not I'm not promoting. Just because we're harping on the legalistic one doesn't mean the lukewarm carnal whatever you want to call that. Yeah, but here's what happens in the lukewarm carnal type homes where they're not on fire for the lord. It's pretty clear that they're not on fire for the lord. So the kids are not man, my mom, dad, aren't living it. They know they're not living it. You know, you're not really sending a mixed signal other unless you're trying to live it out and
you're being false and fake and a hypocrite. You know, that's what hypocrite was, right. They show up the mask and thing on Sunday, somebody else on Monday. But kids with carnality and lukewarmness, it's dangerous, but you know, they see it and they see in themselves and their parents. But with legalism and what we call you know, I
don't know what term you used. Fundamentalist, Yeah, I mean that's that term comes from nineteen oh four nineteen oh five when our A Torri wrote his Fundamentals of the Faith. So it's it's okay term, but what we.
Taught here by the way, they have a Tory conference. Yeah, use a violin.
That's that's pretty cool. So so that word isn't neutral. The problem is when it's and I've just seen it. I mean, the kids just not only do they totally rebellious, they're just hurt, and they're the deconstructionism for people. I'm sure people know who follow your channel, but it's deconstructing
their faith, right, working it back the opposite way. Well, maybe if this and the worst thing you can do is show God's truth without his love principles to follow without the grace that you need to get back up and keep fighting. So that's what it does. It Actually I legalistic. A home sets a standard that nobody can hit. But you're acting like you're hitting it because you're the you know, not in mind, we don't go to the movies,
you know, we don't do this. We have a certain translation of the Bible we use and and women have to wear dresses and head coverings. Now get into the whole, which which is fine if you want, but it's the attitude behind it. See, it's not necessarily the rules, it's the attitude behind it. And the kids. It pushes them
away because I need grace. I can't measure up all these rules and and locked up in your room for half a day and this, and you just there's no there's no breathing room to grow in your faith, because faith is following God's law, following is his commandments, but also having the grace and the mercy to get back up and to keep fighting and to have people in your corner. Hey, you can keep doing this. This is
not allowed. You cannot come home at midnight again. But you know, and you and you you know you have the grace with the truth, and so that's legalistic. Homes just don't provide the incubator of genuine faith because they constantly feel they will never measure up, they're never good enough. They can never please mom, never please dad, and they just live like that and it's kind of sad.
So I'm going to ask you a somewhat difficult question. Maybe it won't be hard for you, but I know you can take it. This is probably fifteen years ago. And it's not like a theological question or apologetic question. It's a scenario because I get emails daily from people like parents and families. How do I navigate this with my kid? How do I navigate this in the church? And it's always like I want them to have truth, but I value the relationship. Where do I draw the line?
And so I'm just curious how you play this one
out again. Probably fifteen maybe twenty years ago, when there was so much conversation about same sex marriage, a pastor shared with me that at his church they were having trying to remember some of the details, They're having kind of a marriage day or kind of retreat celebration, and they had couple stand who had been married the longest, and the last couple standing was a same sex couple now, and they were going to get some kind of award from the church and recognition for this in front of
the church. Now they obviously they hadn't been legally married, because this just goes back to twenty fifteen. But that's the kind of situation I sit there. I'm like, oh, man, if I'm sitting in that situation, I want to speak truth, but I also don't want to shame this couple in a way that's unnecessary to me in my mind. That is almost so often like highlighted this tension between how do you just show grace and kindness to people and
how do you balance truth? What goes through your mind as a pastor if you're sitting there and this unexpected couple stands when you're trying to celebrate God's sign for marriage, and if you're like, I need to think about this because I've been thinking about it for like fifteen years, I'm totally fine with that.
Well, no, I mean it's I think I answered pretty pretty quickly because what I do is anytime we measure grace or truth, right, I look at what is the greater harm. So my silence is going to be more harm to my congregation. So yes, I might have fend. So I probably say, hey, guys, let's talk about this
one after church, you know. But also I don't know if they would be all are welcome right at church, but we don't affirm so because of my preaching and preaching them, they probably for openly same sex couple to be coming to church. Maybe they're new, brand new, I don't know, it could be. But if they're probably not going to come and stay in sin, if that makes sense, because it's just the convicting of the message, not targeting them,
but just the conviction of God's word. So for me me, I would because of the congregation, my role as a leader, my kids might be there, my wife. I probably say, okay, guys, and let's talk about that later. I'm gonna I'm gonna do a sermon at some point on God's design for marriage. But I'm looking for those who've been married according to God's design. So yes, it might shame them, but they actually created this environment. I didn't create it. I'm responding
to it. So to me, that silence would have spoke volumes and it would have actually done more damage to my testimony and to the members of my church. I love that.
I think that's really whise. And you email me something about how sometimes silence can actually cause harm and this is example of doing so. So it sounds smack when it came to the pronoun issue earlier. If somebody is that call me, he him, you don't feel the need to go out of your way and correct that person immediately. But I'm not going to go along with this right and I'm gonna look for the more opportune time to address that wisely. In this circumstance, I'm goten away to
shame this couple, but this is public. I've already preached on where our church stands. I'm gonna shift to the right one, move on, and then fall up with that couple as lovingly and graciously as I can.
Yeah, So for me, I weigh what is the what's the greater damage? That's smart, you know, And then you know, now it depends on the person. Though. If I'm at Starbucks and I've got my my sixteen year old and my eighteen year old, and I've got somebody saying, like, you know to my daughter, no, I'm hear him, and i say, hey, hey, we're not lying here. You're not hear him. It's a linguistically pronoun like, I don't understand this whole thing because it's to me, it's lying. It's
not being honest. However, it depends on the situation. Most of the time it's just like, okay, thanks Chris, nice to meet You're But if it's going to be a constant thing, and depending what the environment is where it's at, I mean, if it's at church. I'm in the prayer room.
You know, it's a very different, you.
Know, And I say, hey, what's your name, Chris? Can I pray with you? No it's not, it's he him And I say, oh no, no, I love you, but can't. Let's talk about he him word. And I use that as opportunity. But I'm not gonna call them. I'm not gonna honor what I think is dishonoring to God. You know. Again with the wighing, the silence speaks volumes, and that's what I think. Many what I consider I don't know if you want to use the term. It's been used
the wrong way sometimes woke or liberal or progressive. And I have friends and that consider, you know, they're more kind of that leaning. But there it's almost an arrogance in their silence. And I talked to him, why don't you ever I don't mention sin much because that's God's job to convict. I'm like, no, it's really yours from the pulpit too. You're a watchman, you're a preacher of God's truth. It's not He's gonna have you as well convict them. And so there's this thought that it's not
my job to convict, it's my job to love. Know, it's actually your job to do both. That's why Paul said be ready in and out season. The time will come when they're not going to put up with sound doctrine, you know, exhort, encourage, long suffering, genterally. I mean, so we have we have the scriptural man to preach all of God's and I think the most powerful preaching of God's word comes from the truth being preached in love.
If you if you go, if you go any side, if you're just, if you're all truth, and I'm meant, if you're if you're a, if you're gay in here, if you're you know you're and you're just beating the pulpit and you're just putting down people, it's not gonna it's just you just hurt a lot of people. But if you're like, you know what, I'm not gonna not gonna go there. I'm not gonna I mean, just look at all the political hot buttons or whatever you want
to call them. They're they're biblical, they're biblical hot buttons. And so if I just going to remain silent, it's really it's really because I've struggled with this. It's cowardliness, isn't it. I don't want to deal with this. I don't want upset anybody. It's cowardliness. And that's why I said earlier. The more time I spend with God the Boulder, I become okay.
So hold that I want to. I'll explore that. But your point about the sphere, I think is really really wise and helpful. I want to make sure we don't miss this. I was just I teach a class here at at BIOL called Gospel Kingdom Cold, and it's apologetics, evangelism, spiritual conversations, and the thorniest cultural issues people can talk about. So we talk about race, we talk about transgender we
talk about poverty, we talk about artificial intelligence. And the board down like directed it for Thattius Williams and I to write this course. And we were just talking about pronouns this week, and I said, before we just answer this, maybe there's a differen between a Christian and a non Christian, an adult and a child. There's so many different settings
that are taking place here. And you're right, like in Starbucks when somebody's dropping off your coffee really fast, and it's like abrupt versus somebody who's in the church asking for prayer. Yeah, even that nuance is makes a big difference when and how we speak truth. So I just want I want to make sure because I want to ruminate on that even more myself. I think there's a lot of wisdom in that. Let's go back to scripture.
Well, the wisdom came from a lot of failure too, so that's where.
Well, most wisdom does, doesn't it. I think most wisdom does. I think. I think that's right. And the wise people learn from other people's failures. Yes, that's true, that's for sure. So we're talking about scripture making us more bold. Now I have my thoughts about this, but I want to hear from you first what you mean by that and how that works.
The boulder I become. Yeah, well, because I think by nature, and what I mean by nature is you know, if you jump in a river, you're just going to go to the flow, You're not gonna so by nature, most people are not confrontational, right, I just don't want to give a good sermon. I want people to like me. I want them to come back next Sunday, you know,
And sadly, a lot of a lot of pastors. I've got pastor friends that are subject to deacon boards, and if they start really speaking the truth, they're going to lose some of their audience and the financial budgets. And so what I mean by that is the those things are just put aside. Like the more time I spend in God's word, the bolder I become for cultural issues.
And pastors pulpit like I want to make sure we're connecting everybody, but keep going how it relates to you.
Yeah, And so these things that are that are human nature, whatever you want to call them, wired by default to be quiet, cowardly, timid. You know, that's kind of our Most people want to be liked by people, right, Jesus said, we'll be to you when all men speak well of you, or if you're trying to please men, you won't be
a pleaser of God. And so when it comes to what we're talking about, speaking the truth and loved cultural issues, the more time I spend with God, the boulder I become on these issues that most of us are inclined to be silent about. That makes sense, it does, Yeah, So I think it is two reasons for me.
The more I study scripture. The more I'm confident about what scripture says, and so I have a certain confidence of life. You know what, I can take criticism from people if I know that I'm standing on a position that is the most reasonable, likely biblical position. It just gives me confidence to say, fine, I've got the Lord at my back and I've thought about this. So personally, I find that that happens a lot the more I study an issue and have conviction about it and get
into the scriptures. But the second is I just see over and over again in the scriptures how much it says to be bold. So I've been studying Deuteronomy over and over again in the morning, and it's like a drum beat in that book. Now, of course, this is Moses's final speech before they enter the Promised Land, so he's got to tell them be bold, do not be afraid. I should do a quick search how many times, but it's probably dozens of times. So I read that, I'm like, wow,
be bold, be bold, don't be afraid, speak truth. And so just being in scripture reminds me of that. The other thing that jumped out is I was before dude, I was studying Luke and when Luke, I'm sorry. When Jesus stands up in the gospel route Luke and reads from Isaiah sixty one, I believe it is, and he's like, these things have been fulfilled in your presence. It says twice about how everybody was praising him and everybody loved him, but by the end of that chapter they want to
throw him off a cliff. At Nazareth, I'm like, wow, they shifted from loving him and caring for him to wanting to throw him off the cliff. I've signed up to follow this guy. What audience am I playing for? Am I playing for being pleased by men? If so, my life is like a roller coaster. I'm at the
whims of what people think about me. But if I'm trying to please God and be on his side, it's actually freeing for me and gives me more boldness just by being in scripture in that fast That's more my experience with it.
And and you'll read because people have a misconception of Jesus, right, turn the other cheek, this nice guy. But man, you brew to vipers. Can you imagine looking at religious leaders and saying you're you're you look great on the outside like whitewashed tunbs, but you're dead on the inside. Woe be to you. Well, did Isaiah speak of you? You draw nye to me with your lips, with your heart, and he just, I mean, he was bold when need
to be bold. And that's the hard part. It's fine because also what happens is I call it reaction, and you know, somebody's doing something, I want to react, And that's arrogance, right because you're you're guarding or you're defending, and oh yeah, well let me tell you this, and you want to text back. And so it's that it's that time of not reacting but responding and waiting on God. And for most some people they know they just need
to just put on the brakes. For other people, they need to step on the gas and start being a little bit more bold, you know. And that's one of the things we talked about earlier with the pulpits in America. You know how much that has shifted from from years ago.
Now hold that we might come back to the pulpit, but so why wouldn't we be bold? In the opposite of boldness either could be cowardice or or fear right.
You don't want to deal with it right now, I mean right like, I don't want to say anything. I don't want to deal with you know, let me just it's it's easy, easy to do for sure.
I also think, like I asked myself, how much am I motivated by fear in my life? And it's so easy to succumb to that absolutely, which prevents somebody from being bold because it could be fear for a reputation, fear for a job, fear for whatever the kind of issue is. But the biblical solution to fear is in First John four eighteen. Perfect love cast out fear. And when I think about this, you know, one of the leading Just yesterday I was talking to students here by
All about this one of the leading fears. It's like death and then it's like public speaking.
Yeah that's true.
It's like always top three or top five, And it's like why because so many people are looking at me and I don't want to be embarrassed or shamed in front of people. So that's where fear comes from. Fear is selfish, Love is self lists. Fear is self focused. Love is other focused. So in some ways, when I look at the church today, when we get overly defensive, and we're overly angry. I sometimes think we're acting out of fear, and some of those concerns are not illegitimate,
whatever those concerns may be. But our reaction is looking at ourselves rather than asking what's the loving response to somebody else. So I've had different people call me out in different ways, and I always think, you know what you're thinking about yourself, rather than if I really want to persuade Sean to change or anybody change, this is it about me? How do I speak in a way
that this is best received? And so like, like I was a calm major here, and communication very simply put, it would be like a sender and it would be a message, and it would be a receiver, right, and the message is the communication. Well, most people have their idea and the message they want to send. This is the truth I want to convey, but they're not thinking about the receiver and whether or not the receiver will at least hear them. And the question is what makes
somebody more likely to hear them. Sometimes it's somebody getting in their face and yelling at them and correct like sometimes that's the time. But that seems to me to be more the exception of the time, and there's often more of a relationship behind that that makes it happened. I try to ask myself, if I have something I think is true and I want somebody to hear it, how do I speak it in love? Because A that's actually loving somebody, whether they respond or not, I'm called
to love somebody. But b it sure seems walls come down and they're more likely to hear it if I speak the truth in love. So I just I'm going to look at the church, I look at pastors today, I look at myself and I ask myself how much am I speaking out of fear, which is selfish versus saying am I speaking out of love? And that's why I mean last point in this I'm rambling a little bit, but when people get nervous for speaking, part of my
response is stop thinking about yourself. Just ask yourself, how can I love my.
Audience about opinions?
Because we're worried about opinions? And I go, well, how can I tell stories that help them? How can I make a PowerPoint that helps them? How can I actually help them? Then the focus shifts from me to others, and I think if we Christians would just stop focusing on ourselves and our fear inwardly and just say, how will people most likely hear the true man or Christ. I think we'd communicate very differently, and.
This one might be helpful. That was a great point and it made me think of this for your listeners. You know, you'll have probably a pastor's listening, lay leaders, Christians of art. How I preach to a mass audience or whatever is a lot different than how I talk to an individual. Amen to that, so there's different dynamics people. I just need to be like, no, no, I'm don't be like I'm preaching, don't talk to an individual that way.
When it's a mass, you have the advantage of not knowing what God's doing in their hearts, and people don't take it personally because there's a group of people. But when I'm talking to an individual, it's going to be obviously a little bit different. However, like you said earlier, there are times to really shoot people straight, when they're destroying their family, when they need to wake up. There's other times where you need to come up alongside and
just listen to them speak the truth and love. But also, you know, yeah, I would say airing on the side of grace. But also when I was younger, I did. I really was into just I just love like football coaches, like good teams. You know, Cowboys, I think it's Tom Laundry, laundry writer, and and Green Bay was Vince Lombardi. And just studying all these guys, I think I did it. I don't know why I did actually, but I realize all these great coaches weren't too nice all the time,
were they. I mean, most most good coaches basketball down here at USC or UCLA basketball coaches, even football, you know, they pull out of you. It's inside of you. So they're really they're not like, hey, no problem, They're like, get back up. You don't do that. And so there is a different dynamic that takes place there. So again, as a past or what type of past or the calling that maybe I have or others habits that that coach to really challenge them and to really have them
dig deep. Also like like Navy Seal podcasts, watching those guys, it's not it's uh, it's just how I'm bent. And so my point was that there's not a one size fits all approach. It really depends on who the person is, your relationship with them. What is God wanting you to say? Going back to what I said earlier, the most important takeaway here, even to a cardinal home, a Lukewarmholm, a
legalistic home, is to get time with the Lord. Spend time with him, open his word, praying, fasting, broken by him. Because because the problem we're the problem that many people are having because the fruit the spirit is not present, is because they're not filled with the spirit. So the more filled you are, the more fruit's going to come out.
That's just that's a biblical truth, right, The love, the joy, the peace and contentment, but also the boldness that's all going to come out from the from the fullness of the spirit. And we're all leaky vessels, deal Mood said, So we have to stay underneath the fountain of living water every day. That's I hate to keep saying that, but that's where all of this. Or should I say this to this person? When should I talk to the truth,
speak the truth and love? What should I confront that when you're when you're with the intimacy with the Lord in that relationship is going to going to navigate these waters much more effectively.
Okay, so I'm kind of end with this point. I think this is really helpful that you've identified kind of your lane, and you're drawn towards coach football, you're drawn towards Navy seals, which just fits your personality, your competitive nature, your a personality, your drive. But you also recognize that there's a lot of people that go, you know what I'm I'm not the coach, I'm not the pastor coach. Maybe I'm the pastor counselor exactly. Maybe I'm the pastor philosopher.
Maybe I'm the pastor business man. Your message, I guess two part question A. How do you balance out not just listening to the voices like I would imagine seal and football coaches would make you go, yeah, Shane, be tough, Yeah, she's speak truth. It's like, wait a minute, I'm filling myself with the voices I'm naturally inclined towards. I don't want to do that too much. And then what would you say to other pastors who are like, yeah, I don't want to listen to seals, I don't want to
play football. That's not me. But I want to be a good pastor.
Yeah, I mean, that's it. Goes back to your DNA. You're wiring how God has called you, and I don't listen to those all the time. I balance it off. You do balance it out, Oh for sure, I like you know, I like the I don't know what a good example would be, but softer podcasts, right, just learning, growing in your faith and things like that, plus that
time with the Lord. I've been getting up for twenty five years really early, you know, three to three thirty in the morning, and so I've got I've got three hours from here on out. Usually you know that I'll spend worship in the word prayer. It's dark out, nobody's up, and that's the time to really get refueled and reinspired and back into into into God's Word. And so also though I remember you said counseling, as some of my pastor friends like they love counseling and they don't like
preaching or sermon prep. That's like, oh, that's the hardest thing for me. I love sermon prep and preaching. It's like that that's what fills me up. So you have to find out what fills up that tank and what drained you. I think I got that from a book leading on empty. It's about when pastors get burned out, and it said, find what fills you up, and find what drains you and try to minimize you know it
drains you, and focus on what fills you up. So trying to find you know, exercise, of course, I mean just I think the physical how we take care of our body, affects the spiritual. Right. If I'm not disciplined physically, if I'm not disciplined physically, I'm not going to be disciplined spiritually. So I think finding that balance of taking care of my body physically, especially as I get older, and then you know, balancing out what you listen to,
the podcast who influences you? Be very careful social media nowadays? You know that, man. I mean some people they get caught up in all these conspiracy theories and yeah on this and they just get they.
Just get lots drama of it and drama.
Yeah. We were not designed to be hit with all this information. And I don't think and.
I think your point about you know, being filled up when you're empty. I only have so much emotional capacity, and when I spend it getting ticked on Twitter, I have less for my wife and less for my son, and it's just I've learned that, like you said, the older that I get. So let's kind of let's bring this back.
Let me add this too. Yeah, I want to say it earlier, but one of the biggest things that has really helped me. Now, let me clarify it because people are going to take it wrong, say you're not open for feedback, you're not teachable. But I don't really look at it. I don't good comments, and I don't look at YouTube comments or Facebook. I don't. I mean maybe one percent. But I have elders and deacons and a core group around me of a lot of people that
will speak into my life. And so I don't know if this person is in Iowa in the basement of their mom trying to, you know, go off on me because they don't agree with some non essential or this, or my attitude or you're prideful? How do you? How do you know who I am? So I think we put too much into comments and likes and followers. You know, we get up. We have to look at Instagram to have followers, and even that can affect That's what's affecting our teenagers right now in our country, is is this
this people pleasing and bullying get off social media. Doesn't matter what they say, they don't know you. Well, just surround yourself by those people who truly know you and love you. I won't listen to constructive criticism either, much
from critical hearts. I want to make sure it's somebody who truly loves me, because there's enough criticism coming in from those who you know, truly Hey in that sermon, had that sermon you kind of you know you really, you know, overstep, you know, and so the elders will speak truth into my life as well. So we do have those people. But I think just that social media constantly feeding that, you know, on Mondays, I turn it off and it's like I'm looking at my pocket like four or five times.
And then you realize how like why our brains.
Are so I read.
I tried to read enough criticism to just say, do I need to pivot? It's just something I need to learn without spending too much time and energy on it. But I can think of a handful of YouTube videos, some Twitter posts, emails I've gotten that are a little bit more substantive. And I've always in every case when I feel like there might be something here, I have a board. I'll send it to people on my board. I've sent it to my son professors here at Talbot
and just go. I've said a couple of times I don't actually have the emotional energy to watch all of this right now. I'm exhausted, But watch it. I only tell me if there's anything I really need to learn from on this and speak truth to me, and some helpful conversations have come out of that. Well, maybe let's just kind of sum up some of the key points in this conversation. I wish I had taken notes, because
there's some principle here I want to remember. I'm going to go back through this, but it seems so some takeaways are. Number One, our boldness and our our energy is going to come from being in the word, truth and grace aside, be in the word, be filled with the spirits. Yes, it's okay to find our own unique wirings. Where there's John the Baptist, John the Beloved, and God has called us uniquely, we should be comfortable in terms of who God has called us Steward Steward Stewart, that
is a good way to put it. But open to always growing and being challenged. Yes, What are some of the other key takeaways from this time?
I think the word well, the word nice, like I remember, I looked up it's it means pleasant and agreeable, and it's not always biblical. So you know, I want to be nice. Okay, that means I guess you'd be. It would depend on how you define it, right, But you're not always going to be pleasant and agreeable if you have to lovingly challenge someone. I mean, so, I think the idea is to err on the side of grace and to be bold when God calls you to be bold.
And I think most people know, we know what we need to work on, right, Like, I don't need to work on being silent. I mean, that's not my that's not my that's not my weakness. I need to work on not getting the last word in and being lovingly more gentle. And just because you, pastors also preach with their emotions, you know, I always say I do not preach a sixty minute perfect sermon. I guarantee my emotion is in there, my motives are in there, my perspectives.
Sometimes even though we stick with truth all the principles, you know, you and manytimes, I like bang, why did I go off on somebody like not a name necessarily, but just like critics or and and just realizing that working on those areas you know you need to work on. So some listening are quiet or silent, they don't want to say anything, they don't upset. Maybe God's calling them to to to be a little bit more bold, maybe sharing
scripture or lovingly challenging. For other of us, it's it's this could be a great call to repentance, to say, God, my heart is growing hard and callous. I've look at what Jesus said. You have sound doctrine to the church, and you help people in this, but you've left your first love. I mean that was the model church right there and then but they left their first love. And so I think it would be a good a good
call to remind people to repentance. Don't just get if something is triggering you in this interview, it's probably because you need to hear it. I mean, that's that's how it works. I don't like they said that. I don't
wish I wish or I wish Sean would be more bold. Well, it's probably because you need to work on being more loving or I wish Shane, it's probably because you need to be you, don't You know the people when they get it's like when you throw a rock into a pile of dogs, you know the one, the one that barks is when you hit. And so these types of podcasts will will cause people to really think, and I would just encourage them to repent and get their heart right with the Lord.
This is really good is one I'm gonna go back through and pull out some of the principles and just think about a lot. And I think you're landing on a point that I believe that we're going to be living in this tension of grace and truth relationally with people in our family. This is true with people where we work, true with people in our church and beyond. And if we're not living in that tension a little bit, then we're stale and we're not growing. Whether it's more
truth or whether it's more grace. But that's the formula.
And let me add before I forget, it's so important to be apologetic and keep relationships healthy. Like Sunday, for example, a guy I was twelve minutes, I twelve minutes before the service, and I'm running late to church right and he comes in. I was kind of like, oh, and so I went to him say, hey, sorry about that was twelve minutes. Oh, no problem. And so you're constantly repenting and repairing and like, hey, I came across strong and I've apologized to my car. I said, hey, last month,
I mean I came across really strong. I was upset at some things. And that transparency, that meekness, that uh that that because meekness is not.
Weakness, Amen, I agree.
Weak meekness is strength under control. You have the strength, but you're controlling it. That's meekness. Weakness is a complete opposite. So apologizing to people. I just apologize to my my uh my son a couple of days ago because I was on and about, hey, you need to start coming to church more. Why and and you know, and it's okay, I can see that understand always but not always trying to be the right one. You know, you're always the right one. You're always you Never you want to listen
to them. You don't want to hear them having the attitude of of of repentance and humility and say okay, I could own that we need to work on that. Let's you know, I apologize for that that keeps that keeps you very tender, and and you'll become more careful what you say, because you.
Know it's not fun to have to know, not at all, not at all. And in some ways this brings us full circle that we need to speak truth more boldly than ever, because it's the truth that sets people free.
Right.
But my first question was tied to the death of Charlie Kirk. What we need and in some ways I just I can't shake it what Erica Kirk said offering forgiveness within days. What is eleven days to the man who murdered her husband, father of her kids. That's supernatural? In my book, it was there's a whole lot of people that shocked them and were like some people were offended by it. Well, okay, at least you saw the power of the Gospel of what that looks like. You
saw it demonstrated clearly. So it's not either or. I think we need to be more gracious and more kind, not nice, but kind and me than ever speaking truth boldly. And may everybody who's watched this be challenged in one fashion or another, because I think that's what Christ wants us to do.
You know, and just to maybe on that point for a minute, getting getting the full story on something. Like many of us, I've done this before. I just comment on what I think I know and you learn later. So even trying to Kurk, a lot of people that had issues didn't really understand what he said in context. They would hear just little snippets of things, so they built an opinion. And now you see, you know, that whole thing is being attacked right now from conspiracy theorists
and all this thing that breaks my heart. It's all over the unbelievable, and those people are not most of the people. There's no humility. You're not going to see humility in a lot of what they're they're saying and doing. It's all about likes and followers and get in. It's it's I don't know if it can be demonic to some degree because that the enemy is planting those fiery
darts and it's feeding ego. That's what he does. It feeds ego, pride comings before a fall, and so you're not seeing a lot of humility, and that's what's happening. It's sad.
Really appreciate you coming on and talking about this. This is a great conversation. With time, we'll definitely do it again.
And think biblically.
How people follow all listen your sermons, follow your writing.
Yeah, I forgot. Actually all of my books are available as free downloads nice at the church website. Yeah, Westside Christianfellowship dot org. Westside Christianfellowship dot org. All I think there's thirteen books there. I just wrote one. I was on Jack Hibbs's podcast about quitting. I almost quit the ministry. Yeah, so I worked through that discouragement fear and things like that.
But mainly they're Westside Christianfellowship dot org or Shaneidelman you know on Instagram and Shane s A H, A and E. And then I was named after Alan Ladd who was in the movie Shane. My parents told me when I was younger, and then Idleman I D L E M an Shane Idelman. But yeah, I would love to hear from people. I'll read these comments from.
From Oh you committed yourself.
Yeah, I mean I once in a while, But you can't live off those things because.
You're you're you're I get it.
You're too bold, you're too quiet too. It's like you're too political. You're not political enough. It's like you're tossed to and fro by the opinions of people. So just being careful who influences you.
Yeah, good word. Enjoy the conversation.
Thanks, yeah, thank you.
Yeah, give you a shake man way to end it. Hey, friends, if you enjoyed this show, please hit that fall button on your podcast app. Most of you tuning in haven't done this yet, and it makes a huge difference in helping us reach and equip more people and build community. And please consider leaving a podcast review. Every review helps.
Thanks for listening to the Sean McDowell Show, brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, where we have on campus and online programs and apologetic spiritual formation, marriage and family, Bible and so much more. We would love to train you to more effectively live, teach, and defend the Christian faith today and we will see you when the next episode drops.